Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[Dunnstral]

Wall>Keep>Gate myself

Might not be a good idea for me to go to the same location as Unwnd, realistically

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd feels town to me

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

[Dunnstral]

Don't forget that mafia can perform a swap

[Dunnstral]

absinthe - in 54 you said you were cautiously optimistic about unwnd's alignment, but in 120 you suggested Dunn saying he "feels" town is "a little premature". What's the difference there, exactly?

I answered this directly to Dunn.

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.

Dunn and I went back and forth for much of the Warehouse 13 Day 1 about which early-early townreads on me he was calling weird and why, among other things. He thought the townreads on my hydra with Nacho were incautious and unwarranted.

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

Mostly I was heckling him, but I do wonder about the ease of that read.

I don't think it's hypocritical, all I said was they feel town, I didn't assert that they're for sure town like people were doing in W 13.

[Dunnstral]

Ultimately I don't really care about what group I get put in that much, I'll fill whatever is open.

I don't think this PList is one that is full of numbskulls. I am enjoying the nuance of the conversations but don't want to just make this about winning arguments. Catboi came in and felt very polarized by the thread, and I imagine that behavior will be similar to any potential scum who are just idly sitting by. Infinity also proclaimed that catboi had an awkwardness to him and if I'm not wrong she kept it to herself because it seemed like it was just being swallowed in the greater battle going on.

Noted

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.

I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.

As Briar and unwnd have demonstrated, for the most part there's no "putting" townreads or scumreads anywhere, unless they buy in.

Well, I think people should cooperate and collaborate and would have said so if I'd been here at the start. Is there some point you're trying to make?

Not really. Just feeling a little deflated that it could be really easy for things to go south in this phase without town cooperation, and feeling that day 1 can be warped more than I'd initially thought by the presence of 3 scum instead of 2.

My optimism's taking some hits.

There was never a way to force people to go places, most people on this site won't policy elim for anything

[Dunnstral]

Thinking a bit, in a perfect world I think my groups right now would look like this:

Gate: Absinthe/Anastasia/Catboi
Wall: Unwnd/Dunnstral/Something_Smart
Keep: Briar/Lukewarm/Infinity

I think Unwnd/Infinity are interchangeable for the last two, but the Gate group would resolve a few of my reads? Like, confirming whether or not absinthe/Ana is T/T or T/S (because if it's S/S What The Fuck) would be important to me, and also it'd be nice if that was the case because I haven't gotten anything really Good from catboi yet and seeing whether or not he was confirmed would be cool. (This is also the assumption that the mafia would make the conversation between the former keep on going to the death? I think? Like there's already some uh, doubts between absinthe/Ana that they've vocalized so duh mafia preys on that.) This is the group with maximum WIFOM fuckery though so I worry that I'd get snowed pretty fast were mafia to divert from this but I'm gonna assume they'd play it sort of straightforward despite me talking about all this stuff out loud.

For the wall group, that's honestly the group where I'm like... could be any alignment, and I wouldn't be too surprised? I lean town on unwnd, actually, I townread unwnd now that I think about it a little bit just from how he's been playing even if I was questioning the 'why' he was trying to be so... diplomatic? I guess? It doesn't feel slimy like he's trying to placate people so much as just... figure shit out, so far. Which is nice. The latter two I have less experience with and in general don't find easy reads, so resolving that is a bit out of my paygrade. I am curious still about S_S's guess on me and why it bothered him, because he didn't say anything about it more and while I appreciate him not outting it for fear it's correct, it's a little... IDK. I guess my expectation was that he'd engage me even if my reply to him was very silly, because if it's something he was worrying about a bit he'd attempt to resolve it somehow.

And the last group, I Am Town, Luke has felt good so far and I do think that like, while he's not new to the site, the format itself is something he's still adjusting to and trying to keep up as mafia while in a group playing the Townie Pageant Game would probably be hell for him. If he's town he feels like he's the safest vote for us to pick and if he's scum he'll probably slip or something and we just vote either myself or Infinity if she's in here with us, and it's easy from there on.

As for order of who we let stay first, I think that (in the little world I am creating here) I'd let Wall > Keep > Gate do their votes? Actually, uh, probably Keep first now that I am thinking about it because if we're all voting for townreads and this is somehow the group that gets messed up and votes mafia, it'd be important to reset assuming we'd placed at that point a decent amount of trust into their reads. The IC should stick around as long as needed to dictate everything obviously, but now that I'm working through it I am very much into the Keep going first unless we all collectively agree one person is /disgustingly/ townie (sidenote: hey I'm the disgustingly townie one lol) and wanna see their reads or something pending a Wall-flip.

My brain is not functioning after typing this. Please enjoy.

This is a lot of wrong.

What we do isn't locked in, it depends on everyone's location and who gets swapped. We should probably solve one of the swapped groups first. Probably the IC group or the keep group if applicable, because those are the easier groups for town.

Wall group should go last, it is the hardest for town.

I don't think that wall grouping is a good idea but that's just my opinion

[Dunnstral]

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to tell the scumteam how to play but it's pretty obvious they're going to send briar into the gate and then ic her

[Dunnstral]

Actually, it's probably better for Ana to pick who she wants in the final slot? If she's in fact wanting to vote someone other than herself it should be someone she's confident in.

Yes, because I'm not feeling good about voting for Ana in the keep at the moment, I'd like if she did this.

[Dunnstral]

Which means that townies shouldn't yeet themselves into the keep right now as it can make a sort of easy win turn much harder

[Dunnstral]

Actually, it's probably better for Ana to pick who she wants in the final slot? If she's in fact wanting to vote someone other than herself it should be someone she's confident in.

Okay, I ran through all of the possibilities if we now commit to this plan - Ana choses the 3rd player to enter the Keep, and commits to voting which ever of the two is left with her in the Keep after the switch (and if she tries to back out, we all assume she is scum claiming) - to see how it would play out.

Like I considered all of the combinations of Briar, Ana, and Ana's 3rd choice being town/scum

Spoiler:

If Briar is

town

and Ana is

town

, and choses another

town

, we win this mini-game, regardless of the swap.
and Ana is

town

, and chooses

scum

, we lose this minigame (Briar is swapped out, Ana votes her 2nd choice, we lose)

and Ana is

scum

, and choses a

town

player, we win this mini-game, regardless of the swap.
and Ana is

scum

, and chooses another

scum

player, we win this mini game (they can't swap out Briar, so we just vote for her)

If Briar is

scum

, I think we now lose this minigame, regardless of Ana's alignment.

and Ana is

town

, they swap Ana's 2nd choice, and we lose this mini game

and Ana is

scum

. This is the strangest one to parse out, but we probably lose??

My conclusion, is that Ana is almost certainly town, because the scenarios with town!Briar + scum!Ana means scumAna is giving us the win for this minigame.

But I am still incredibly frustrated by her locking herself in without letting the thread talk about it. Because it seems to me, that this minigame now hinges entirely on her being able to have successfully town read 2 different players Day 1. Like she took a lot of agency away from the whole team by making her play.

This seems pretty town

[Dunnstral]

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

Why? Don't we want to put scummy players there to force scum to IC then?

I was thinking it would be easiest to deal with the swap, as long as there is only 1 scum in the gate it's fine too

I'm under the impression that mafia can swap into the gate and then make that person the ic

[Dunnstral]

If Briar and Anastasia are both town, Why doesn't anybody care/want to be in the keep? Shouldn't mafia want to put a member in there so they can swap more effectively?

[Dunnstral]

If Briar and Anastasia are both town, Why doesn't anybody care/want to be in the keep? Shouldn't mafia want to put a member in there so they can swap more effectively?

Have you missed that both Luke and I want to be in the keep?

I was under the impression that neither of you wanted to be in the keep

[Dunnstral]

you guys both think that Ana is town or no?

[Dunnstral]

I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't want to put someone you scumread in the keep

[Dunnstral]

So.

What I said about 'there has to be scum in Briar/Absin/Ana' didn't really get as much attention as I'd thought. Sure Absin talked about it with me but that's because she's apart of it. It's just more likely you respond to someone calling your name out regardless of alignment. I finally got a decent nap in so I just want to say I feel a bit more prepared. I'm not willing to call all 3 town but do I agree with the majority on Ana. The initial interaction with her was my own impetus. I don't really think Ana comes in ready to die as scum and hopes the gambit just works out. She basically would have to assume Absin/Briar would feel bad for her and tinfoil the other. I also think everyone's response to her claims makes me believe she doesn't really have partners to go along with the "Plan" either. I don't really know where she sees me/s_s/infinity and my biggest guess would be that she thinks S_S is frustrated that Briar/Absin/Ana all happened to find each other as town. Placing those 3 in 'have to have scum together' was more of a comfort to me as I didn't want to believe S_S/Infinity/Lukewarm/Catboi/Dunn comprised a whole scumteam. Mind you there's more than 3 there. I still don't really feel that way, even if the person I suspect the most out of there is catboi.

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

[Dunnstral]

That sounds to me like you don't think Briar/Ana are both town

No... I'm not scum

[Dunnstral]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

[Dunnstral]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

[Dunnstral]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

What the hell is this bravado man

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

[Dunnstral]

ok but like if Briar and Ana are both town don't we want scum to take the last slot?

Did you forget about the swap mechanic?

[Dunnstral]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

What the hell is this bravado man

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

So you agree with my own assumption earlier?

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I have a feeling that Infinity is scum here

ok but like if Briar and Ana are both town don't we want scum to take the last slot?

Did you forget about the swap mechanic?

Dude. If you just auto-locked yourself in right now, I feel like the consensus would be that you scumclaimed, and we would just move forward with "vote anyone but Dunn" and we would just win the mini game, regardless of the swap mechanic.

Unless you think you could scum claim there, and then we would be so confused by the swap mechanic, we would just forget? lol

But wouldn't town already win the mini game if there's three town locking into that group?

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd, who do you want at the wall with you?

[Dunnstral]

If you guys still think I'm throwing doubt at the players already in the keep you don't fundamentally understand what I'm arguing

[Dunnstral]

Unwnd, who do you want at the wall with you?

I would take infinity honestly just to prove ana being ridiculous because I'm petty

What does this mean? Would you try to elim Infinity or the opposite?

[Dunnstral]

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Wall

[Dunnstral]

I think it was 2-1-0

[catboi, Something_Smart, Infinity 325]
2/3 scum in that group, unless absinthe and Infinity 324 are both scum and swapped with each other for kicks (in which case it would be 1-1-1)

I think we resolve the

Keep

first. I strongly suspect that Infinity 324 flips scum. I wouldn't mind either Briar or Anastasia being the one chosen.

[Dunnstral]

Ignore the dumb speculation about absinth. Ok, Infinity is confirmed scum?

[Dunnstral]

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

[Dunnstral]

but I thought you thought scum was at the keep?

We've went over this. I'm now at the phase where I'm ready to push everyone who keeps bringing this up as I believe it's a scum tell to tunnel in on that aspect

[Dunnstral]

Okay, so my strategy is basically I think we should just like, let the three of us at the Keep throw around our reads a bit and then hammer in there; I am almost positive Infinity is scum, but on the off chance Ana is being a rapscallion playing in her silly ways I don't want to freeze out Infinity entirely; that and she has to try and to like, do /something/ unless she's just not going to post at all and concede the point to town to avoid associatives.

Infinity is confirmed scum because absinthe is confirmed town at the keep

[Dunnstral]

Okay, so my strategy is basically I think we should just like, let the three of us at the Keep throw around our reads a bit and then hammer in there; I am almost positive Infinity is scum, but on the off chance Ana is being a rapscallion playing in her silly ways I don't want to freeze out Infinity entirely; that and she has to try and to like, do /something/ unless she's just not going to post at all and concede the point to town to avoid associatives.

Infinity is confirmed scum because absinthe is confirmed town at the keep

Look, you don't know Ana. She's a real trickster. An imp. Prone to the most chaotic of moves you've ever seen. She'll do something you'll never expect as scum just because she can. Because she wants to. For the thrill of a good gambit. There's nothing that could tame that wild spirit within her that just wants to see the world burn down and I am the only person here armed with a fire hose ready to extinguish it if she's on a path of destruction.

Oh. I see, you think ana is scum and infinity and absinthe are both town who were swapped around.

I find Infinity being town unlikely

[Dunnstral]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

[Dunnstral]

the town motivation he should've said was because he townread luke/unwnd and he wanted to go for the auto-win but he didn't say that :<

I didn't say that because it's not true. I thought that there was 1 scum between unwnd/luke already.

[Dunnstral]

if Unwnd/Luke are both town then he needs to jump on the wall to prevent an auto-lose

This is untrue, as Infinity would have went to the wall otherwise

[Dunnstral]

i mean if you're scum and unwnd/luke are T/T then you need to jump on the wall because if a townie jumps on the wall the game is over.

Your theory is a bad one because it puts both me and infinity in a bad position, when s_s is very unlikely to jump at anything, in fact, due to personality

the town motivation he should've said was because he townread luke/unwnd and he wanted to go for the auto-win but he didn't say that :<

I didn't say that because it's not true. I thought that there was 1 scum between unwnd/luke already.

When did you vocalize this, or did you?

I didn't, because there was no reason to talk after the lock in.

The crux is that, yes, I believed that your group was all town. I didn't believe that the other 3 were all scum given how casually they were talking about placements (but if they were all scum, we'd have won anyway)

Luke has been weird. Unwnd is a good player and I'm not 100%. Right now I'd guess catboy and luke,

[Dunnstral]

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

[Dunnstral]

okay the anime avis are starting to get to me ngl

This is ironic because your avatar is also anime <3

Wow am I really alone as a non-anime avi? >.<

I don't wanna say this game could be that easy because it is, in fact, never that easy. But is the simple answer that Dunn hopped in that group to avoid auto-lose and we should just not waste our time here?

This game seems pretty bleak for scum.

p-edit: Have you explained the 'weird' parts of Luke, and if not can you, Dunn? I had him as town, albeit not absinthe/Ana levels.

He focuses too much on the keep. Specifically, he is seeing if, were briar to be swapped out, he could finangle a victory based on existing suspicions of aAnastasia.

He doesn't seem to acknowledge infinity or S_S, except for what looks like a gambit where infinity mentions there being no other non-anime avatars

[Dunnstral]

Dunn I have an itch that's it you based on the way the night went down but I'm willing to be reasonable

Did you go to the wall with me because you thought Luke was scum and you could convince me? I don't remember if you answered your intent yet

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on you being town over Luke, and wasn't really thinking about that. It was in my mind that we could win without dealing with my own group, if necessary

[Dunnstral]

I think we're making a mistake in focusing on me over catboi/ss right now

[Dunnstral]

Dunn I have an itch that's it you based on the way the night went down but I'm willing to be reasonable

Did you go to the wall with me because you thought Luke was scum and you could convince me? I don't remember if you answered your intent yet

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on you being town over Luke, and wasn't really thinking about that. It was in my mind that we could win without dealing with my own group, if necessary

So your preference assuming is Keep > Gate > Wall then for flip order? Unless you'd rather solve in catboi/S_S first which is pretty much where I am too

In my mind, I already know the deal with Keep and don't see a need to flip it right away. I'm looking at the Gate right now, and if it's a scum elim, do Keep next. If not, we can work on Wall

[Dunnstral]

@Mod

What happens if deadline is met and no decision is made for any minigame?

Pacifist ending

[Dunnstral]

Like, reading over this it feels like Infinity actually wants S_S dead versus catboi who is a scumread but like, not a lot of meat there?

There was no elimination during day 1.

[Dunnstral]

So Catboi and S_S both think Unwnd at the wall... why?

[Dunnstral]

absinthe, would you say you're the kind of person who would make your own decision or would you pick what others are saying?

Or at least, how do you think you would be perceived prior to being swapped into the Gate and turned IC. I think Ana would have went with their own reads

[Dunnstral]

My point was that logically, because scum hadn't jumped into that group, it was more likely for them to be scum themselves.

Until a bunch of slots which had a high chance of containing scum started questioning me as if I was a crazy person.

Which, I wasn't, by the way. I was right. If Infinity had hopped into the keep when I was talking about it, this game would probably be harder for the town to win.

So, like I said when originally questioned:

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

What the hell is this bravado man

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

So you agree with my own assumption earlier?

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I have a feeling that Infinity is scum here

[Dunnstral]

absinthe, would you say you're the kind of person who would make your own decision or would you pick what others are saying?

Or at least, how do you think you would be perceived prior to being swapped into the Gate and turned IC. I think Ana would have went with their own reads

How would you have perceived me coming into Day 2?

It's not something I would be thinking about, but I'd say more likely than not to pick what the group wants in the end vs personal reads

[Dunnstral]

I find when Dunn is town the ends justify the means. When he's scum, he spends a lot of time in this mode of fake thinking. There's a more general vagueness and I feel like he's less battered because he doesn't want to risk the attention. This plays in part of him idling at times. Dunn isn't a hyperposter and keeps to himself, and I don't think he's the scum to make big moves. He waits for people to make mistakes and then capitalizes on them.

Okay so... does that explain 755? Did you know it wasn't really bravado?

It seemed pretty fake honestly yeah

Was I right or not?

[Dunnstral]

Almost certain you said the exact opposite of the bolded during Day 1. Will go back to cross reference once I am caught up

I want you to go back to 769 and tell me what you think I was saying

[Dunnstral]

I find when Dunn is town the ends justify the means. When he's scum, he spends a lot of time in this mode of fake thinking. There's a more general vagueness and I feel like he's less battered because he doesn't want to risk the attention. This plays in part of him idling at times. Dunn isn't a hyperposter and keeps to himself, and I don't think he's the scum to make big moves. He waits for people to make mistakes and then capitalizes on them.

Okay so... does that explain 755? Did you know it wasn't really bravado?

It seemed pretty fake honestly yeah

Was I right or not?

Are you saying that you're not partnered with Infinity because of that post?

Not exactly

I'm saying I'm not scum because scum sat back and waited for absinthe to finally jump into the keep, whereas if I were scum either I or my team (but probably me) would have simply went into the keep before that rather than all get poe'd down at the end.

In my mind, if I'm scum, the keep is already lost if 3 town are in it, and we would have to toss 1 person in anyway. Having 1 person scum claim to join it and mess with the other 2 groups is worth it.

The current group of scum did not agree, and that became apparent when multiple people latched onto me by saying I was shading briar/ana instead of actually engaging with my points

[Dunnstral]

I find when Dunn is town the ends justify the means. When he's scum, he spends a lot of time in this mode of fake thinking. There's a more general vagueness and I feel like he's less battered because he doesn't want to risk the attention. This plays in part of him idling at times. Dunn isn't a hyperposter and keeps to himself, and I don't think he's the scum to make big moves. He waits for people to make mistakes and then capitalizes on them.

Okay so... does that explain 755? Did you know it wasn't really bravado?

It seemed pretty fake honestly yeah

Was I right or not?

Are you saying that you're not partnered with Infinity because of that post?

Not exactly

I'm saying I'm not scum because scum sat back and waited for absinthe to finally jump into the keep, whereas if I were scum either I or my team (but probably me) would have simply went into the keep before that rather than all get poe'd down at the end.

In my mind, if I'm scum, the keep is already lost if 3 town are in it, and we would have to toss 1 person in anyway. Having 1 person scum claim to join it and mess with the other 2 groups is worth it.

The current group of scum did not agree, and that became apparent when multiple people latched onto me by saying I was shading briar/ana instead of actually engaging with my points

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you voted Wall before S_S voted Gate right?

That's correct, but the situation you describe is reactive (trying to prevent losing) rather than proactive (trying to make it harder for town to win)

It's not the same thing, and I explained why I would be unlikely to react like that as scum (because S_S is unlikely to jump into the wall without talking about it, based on personality)

[Dunnstral]

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

Tell me about your S_S, catboi reads then.

s_s is towny because he made good points when he said we shouldn't talk anymore, and realizing it was correct for him to hammer the gate without talking.

catboi is close to null but leans scum because he was focused way more on talking about how I was shading ana/briar than what I was actually talking about. Notable is that the scum team completely gave up on winning the keep. Today, catboi talked about flipping the keep first as if it were the most natural thing when I don't believe that is the case, and I think that's calculated

[Dunnstral]

Official Vote Count 1.05

---

Preparation

Gate

(1): catboi

Wall

(1): unwnd

Keep

(2): Briar, Anastasia

Unassigned

(5): Dunnstral, Infinity 324, absinthe, Lukewarm, Something_Smart

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-18 18:31:49).

Mod notes:

Only votes for the Gate, Wall, or Keep will be counted.

Official Vote Count 1.06

---

Preparation

Gate

(2): catboi, Something_Smart

Wall

(3): unwnd, Lukewarm, Dunnstral

<-- FULL

Keep

(3): Briar, Anastasia, absinthe

<-- FULL

Unassigned

(1): Infinity 324

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-18 18:31:49).

Mod notes:

Day ends when all but one player have voted.

With your theory in mind dunn Re: scum waited for absin to jump to keep that makes Infinity left out scum, one of catboi/S_S, and then Me/You/Luke having the last?

Luke jumped to the wall right after absinthe jumped to the keep. Catboi was already at the gate.

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

[Dunnstral]

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

[Dunnstral]

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

[Dunnstral]

^still only 2 at the gate because of the mechanic, but there's more wifom about the swap meaning the swap can be town-town, scum-scum, or town-scum

[Dunnstral]

Almost certain you said the exact opposite of the bolded during Day 1. Will go back to cross reference once I am caught up

I want you to go back to 769 and tell me what you think I was saying

You said that if Birar+Ana were town, and you were scum, then you would have already locked yourself into the Keep. You continued the argument to the conclusion that "I sort of doubt briar + ana as town." Then you went on to say that "logically" there must be a scum in the 3 of [Briar+ana+absinthe]

But that you felt like people were missing some other point you were trying to make.

I then dedicated many posts to trying to understand this so called "misunderstood point." And you stopped responding.

Spoiler:

I am asking what is the incentive to a scum locking themselves into the Keep.

If they lose the Keep minigame if they lock in early AND they lose the minigame if they don't lock in early

Then how are you using the fact that they did not lock in early to draw any conclusions?

I don't think we should discuss optimal scum strategy for them lol

He is claiming, that based on his logic there is most likely 1 scum between you+Briar.
We are considering hanging the Keep's minigame on collectively town reading you+Briar.

If his logic makes sense, then we absolutely should discuss it, because that would mean we need to re-examine our town reads on you+Briar
If his logic is flawed, then we are giving the scum team flawed advice anyways, so it does not matter.

If you + Briar are both in the keep, and both town read, the scum have lost this minigame - unless they can make us doubt the town read on Briar+you.

So imo, either dunn is scum, trying to cast doubt on you+Briar being town, or he is town and has figured out some reason we should not trust the town reads on you+Briar that the rest of the lobby missed.

Either way, I want to hear from him.

If you guys still think I'm throwing doubt at the players already in the keep you don't fundamentally understand what I'm arguing

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

:roll: :roll:

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I got only eyes for you, and I am dying for you to enlighten me.

I left a clear possibility that you were town who had figued something out that everyone missed, and that I very much wanted to understand your point, and you just never came back :(

...Did you completely miss where I said 'but actually no'?

Look at 1170

[Dunnstral]

The last thing I wanted to do yesterday was explain in great detail how this was actually an optimal move for scum to make, only for somebody to finally clue in and actually execute it

I started explaining that I thought ana and briar were suspicious because of the lack of such a move, but because nobody seemed to understand what I was talking about, I concluded that I was dealing with a scum team that wasn't thinking about this sort of thing

[Dunnstral]

What you are claiming here is simply not true. The number of people under suspicion in each area is the same either way.

The mafia would have been able to use the swap for wifom, and there would be less content to go off of as to where everyone else placed themselves (i.e. S_S wanting infinity at the wall, and catboi locking into the gate early would both matter much less if there was also scum in the keep)

[Dunnstral]

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.

All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read

[Dunnstral]

I think I can see your worldview but I'm going to be honest

Thinking about mech in less conventional ways usually fucks with my head. I can work with reasoning being applied to mech but the reason I've retracted my read on S_S is that his content is almost all mech and I shouldn't just give it a pass because it sounds interesting

So you need to explain how you're ruling out Luke here

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience

[Dunnstral]

...Did you completely miss where I said 'but actually no'?

Look at 1170

My issue is that during Day 1, you did not explain the "but actually no." And then multiple people asked you to explain it better, and you just didn't. Instead you dropped out of the conversation until you could lock in the set up.

I am going to go back and read 1170 again, and try my best not to tunnel you over this, but you locking Day 1, without comment, after I asked you ever so nicely to explain it to me, is not a great place for us to be starting today off. Because now, if you are town, the only way we win this game is if you can convince me to over look all of that.

Like, I really wanted to understand you during Day 1

That there's scum in those 3? Logically yes, but it feels like nobody understands what I'm getting at, so actually no.

I got only eyes for you, and I am dying for you to enlighten me.

To be frank, because I considered the keep to be both town, and also had townreads on unwnd and absinthe, I had very little reason to engage further with any of you, s_s, catboi, or infinity, many of which I felt were trying to misrep or at least focus on a part of what I was talking about that I wasn't talking about.

Ana and briar were never the focus for me, I started the conversation by saying 'here's what I would do' and yes it eventually led into 'because this hasn't happened, it's more likely that ana and briar are mafia' but then back to 'mafia likely don't share the same view as me so it's null, and I don't think it's ana/briar without considering that'

[Dunnstral]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

[Dunnstral]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on unwnd, but I did think there was probably 1 (and only 1) scum between you two. That wasn't guaranteed though, what I was most sure of was that I'd be forcing two scum into the gate.

[Dunnstral]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

You think the wall is better?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?

Because you wanted infinity at the wall, and from my point of view there was very likely 1-2 scum between the two of you

So I forced both S_S and Infinity into the keep to see what would happen. The result is that there was already 1 scum in the wall, and likely the last 2 in the keep

So when you locked yourself in, did you already think that I was one of the scum players?

No, I didn't have that level of confidence on unwnd, but I did think there was probably 1 (and only 1) scum between you two. That wasn't guaranteed though, what I was most sure of was that I'd be forcing two scum into the gate.

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

[Dunnstral]

Why did you think it was better to force 2 scum into the gate instead of the wall?

I promise I am going somewhere with this line of questioning.

I didn't think that, I wasn't thinking about 2 in the gate or 2 in the wall, I saw a shot at 2 in the gate almost for sure and I took it.

In my mind, it wasn't catboi/s_s/infinity all together because they seemed so casual about where they were going and it would be weird for all the scum to be forced into the same area like that, so I wasn't thinking that. (It wasn't a point against what I did so I didn't think too hard about it)

I thought the keep was likely all town and that there was 1 scum in you/unwnd but my reads aren't 100%, and the opposite could have been true with passive scum trying to get into the wall

I didn't understand why infinity should go to the wall and in my mind that wasn't a good idea.

Thinking back on it, S_S was trying to get Infinity into the wall, which would have forced two scum in the wall, but no matter where infinity went, there would have been two scum somewhere

[Dunnstral]

Catboi/S_S/Infinity had a much higher chance of having 2 scum in it than:

Unwnd/Lukewarm/either S_S or Infinity

[Dunnstral]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

I was not capable of forcing two scum in the wall

[Dunnstral]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

Not following this?

The swap. Because you were both swapped and turned IC.

Thing is, I was playing optimally, with what I was given. Here's what I had wanted to do:

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

But briar and Ana immediately voted themselves into the keep

[Dunnstral]

I don't want to tell the scumteam how to play but it's pretty obvious they're going to send briar into the gate and then ic her

[Dunnstral]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

[Dunnstral]

It wasn't about 2 at the gate or 2 at the wall, I saw a lot of people suddenly lock in, my reads aren't 100%, there was a chance in my mind that if I let S_S and Infinity do whatever they wanted, we'd end up in an unfavorable situation. And what S_S wanted was for Infinity to go to the wall.

This is shockingly similar to the reason I almost locked into the Keep immediately after Ana did.... which makes it harder for me to say this is a fake reason.

Not that it matters now, but I believe it would have been better for town to try and put 2 scum at the wall instead of at the gate.

Spoiler:

You stated you believed all 3 of [Briar+Ana+Absinthe} to be town.

Putting 2 scum at the gate let them IC one of those 3, which did not give us much info because they were already being townread.

Putting 2 scum at the wall would have forced the scum team to swap one of them into the wall, so Absinthe would have moved to the wall, and one of {catboi , you, S_S} would have been forced to be IC'ed

Forcing 2 scum into the gate, meant that they got to send the town read over to the gate to be ICed, and therefore not give us much more information.

It's moot because I didn't have the capability of making scum have two people at the wall

So if you had put yourself at the gate, then there was a 50% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

Putting yourself at the gate, from your POV, there was now a 0% chance of there being 2 people at the wall.

So you made that arrangement impossible, so I wanted to hear your thoughts about that arrangement

The answer is that I wasn't thinking about this, though I should have.

In reality, if mafia played it correctly, after I locked in at the gate, either Infinity would have locked into the gate in preparation for the exact play they made anyway (while s_s as town waits for infinity to pick the wall). Or, in a scenario where s_s is also scum, that would be pretty bad for them, but I feel like the scum team is less likely to find themselves in this situation. I think catboi is a bit more likely to be mafia off of how this played out.

[Dunnstral]

Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now

[Dunnstral]

The problem is that Luke is right but they're arguing that it's suboptimal, not that it's scum motivated

Because if I'm scum, and infinity is also scum, and s_s wants infinity at the wall, then there's no problem with that unless you think I got spooked for a different reason, which sn all town at the wall (though from your pov there should be doubt about me being in that position as scum in the first place)

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, not to look a gift horse in the mouth or anything, but like, what changed your mind from

This:

Spoiler:

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.

All Luke talks about is:

-Keep Mechanics
-My briar/ana read
-my mech talk about scum going into the keep and how that relates to my briar/ana read

I think I can see your worldview but I'm going to be honest

Thinking about mech in less conventional ways usually fucks with my head. I can work with reasoning being applied to mech but the reason I've retracted my read on S_S is that his content is almost all mech and I shouldn't just give it a pass because it sounds interesting

So you need to explain how you're ruling out Luke here

I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience

to this:

Meanwhile I've changed my mind and I think Unwnd is scum in here now

1237 and 1240 aren't shading you, first of all. 1237 is in fact more about unwnd's thoughts, 1240 is unwnd plus whoever else said something similar, I think catboi

I understand where you're coming from more, while this feels more like scum Unwnd because it doesn't feel like he is trying to work with me, and I do think scum him would not go for you when I was and would instead continue to go for me where he believes there is more support. And when asked about his read on you in context to his read on s_s for mech talk, his answer wasn't very good

[Dunnstral]

Both of your arguments are just hearsay and me needing to believe what you would do in accordance to how the night played out

Not what you've organically gained from it

What do you need to believe from Luke in order to read him?

[Dunnstral]

I just want to state that my initial TR of S_S is exclusive to what I think of him as a person. I townread his efforts thinking he was tinkering in his head to try and make a favorable outcome for town. I changed my mind on this however because I'm just going to assume the same thing I always do about mechanics: They're really fucking easy to talk about and require zero commitment. Dunn, you yourself admitted this and made the basis of your argument against Lukewarm based on (Mechanics). Okay? So why are you two going rounds about postulating theories and how the mechanics should work in your town!favor instead of the opposite. I'm not going to pay attention to it much further and I hope to god that is not what becomes the majority of conversation you will absolutely lose me if it is.

Let me state that I don't think all mechanic talk is bad. It's protown to consider how to use the setup to your advantage and line up potential good moves in accordance to it. However? I think that's passed.

So you think all of me, s_s, and infinity are scum, and we were the last 3 in a location, and that I got ahead of myself and hammered wall for no reason?

[Dunnstral]

Let's start somewhere else

The whole game pretty much agrees that Infinity is caught scum. That's very much a given. I would like to state if you're not paying attention that both the two people who have a confirmed scum in them think I'm evil. Who's bussing me?

Counterpoint:

If you're scum, you're in a better position than either of s_s or catboi. It's you who has to help t hem, not the other way around. It's possible for you to go undetected in this pair and still lose the game.

Rephrasing that, right now s_s vs catboi is more important, and if town wins that group, they are very likely to win the game. The same is true of this group, as well, but you're under a lot less pressure

[Dunnstral]

Ok well

If I haven't made it clear enough

I have to solve the both of you

I'm fine with you two sharing a heartfelt moment over statistical data, but work with my sensibilities

Do you think that all 3 scum were the last people who hadn't voted for a position yet, and that I then hammered wall for no reason as a sort of gambit to make my team look better?\\Because if you don't think that, then you should probably think catboi is scum, actually, and we can probably win off of that

[Dunnstral]

Let's start somewhere else

The whole game pretty much agrees that Infinity is caught scum. That's very much a given. I would like to state if you're not paying attention that both the two people who have a confirmed scum in them think I'm evil. Who's bussing me?

Counterpoint:

If you're scum, you're in a better position than either of s_s or catboi. It's you who has to help t hem, not the other way around. It's possible for you to go undetected in this pair and still lose the game.

Rephrasing that, right now s_s vs catboi is more important, and if town wins that group, they are very likely to win the game. The same is true of this group, as well, but you're under a lot less pressure

I don't understand how I need to help them, my best option here is to play stupid and let them fight their own battles

No

If you're scum, and one of catboi/s_s is scum, and infinity is scum

You will lose the game if your partner between catboi/s_s gets eliminated

So just playing stupid isn't a valid strategy

[Dunnstral]

Luke doesn't seem to be townreading me/scumreading unwnd as hard as people keep implying

[Dunnstral]

There's no "mechanical agreement"

[Dunnstral]

There's no "mechanical agreement"

That's not how I took it

Did you read the rest?

Yes, I read it, and regardless of how you 'took it' it's been explained to you by luke that he wasn't clearing based off of mechanics

[Dunnstral]

Saying that Luke and I are townreading each other off of mechanics is simply incorrect

[Dunnstral]

I see well

What about the rest

Unless that's far less favorable to you to discuss lol

Fine, let's go over it

[Dunnstral]

Alright.

I apologize for my agitation in some areas. I'm not going to repeat to you all about that however.

To preface this: this setup to me just creates mechanical strife. It seems like it could potentially be used for gain but at the end of the day each minigame is a XYLO where one of them just happens to have a clear. You can spin the keep as 'oh we just vote for town' but it's a very small difference and doesn't change how someone would behave. This plays in part to what I believe Catboi? said earlier about Infinity and how she's just locked into her choice like a dance game. For clarity, there is extremely little room to think that Ana is scum. I also want to believe that this is town game experience I'll be able to take away from Ydra, despite her changing her mind on me. It's not a matter of how we solve Keep in my mind rather when it comes. Infinity is playing very close to antispew in my mind and only focusing on the necessity of needing to towntell, which is a smart decision. However, I think that behavior is less directed. I don't really feel like Infinity has a set of lines she's being fed from potential mates. I think they're mostly focusing on covering their own ass much like Infinity is.

Not a lot to discuss here

So I'm not going to look at this with associative with mind, rather consider individual play. Scum who are in their minigames in my opinion don't really need to help their partners here. They need to just focus on themselves. This is why what Dunn/Lukewarm were frustrating me, not because what Ana believes. In a XYLO, you believe you're town and you don't want the decision to fall on you, or against you. This is not behavior that is difficult to replicate, and just because you're mechanically locked into a pseudo-XYLO does not

again

change anything.

You're frustrated because we're only looking at the wall?

I don't think that's true, for myself at least

I can't just believe Lukewarm/Dunn must be town for X Y Z mechanical reason, and I'm not letting either of them accept the other as town.

There is no "mechanical reason"

Right now I am leaning that Dunnstral is just playing to Lukewarm's sensibilities. I believe that Dunn will take the mechanical agreement and just run with it.

There is no "mechanical agreement"

I don't like how he's approached me and changed his mind about me even if a lot of people have. I think him especially just dropped the read on me once it was no longer useful. I've seen how Dunn acts towards me and he is never that reluctant to townread me. That was the initial feeling that disturbed me. Regardless, do I think Dunn as scum

planned

what happened and could come in with good intentions about his choice? Not entirely, but I think he's adaptive. I don't understand where Dunn's behavior must be genuine because the choice really wasn't his to make? That's aside the point and talking about that aspect will start a migraine.

OK, so you're talking about Ana saying something along the lines of "he believes what he is saying, and that makes him town".
I came into the day saying that Luke was scum so you going on about how I wouldn't be reluctant to townread you is just wrong, no? Otherwise it's a 3 person group so this is a bad reason anyway.

Moving on, Lukewarm's ideas are there but they're not perfect. They have imperfections very likely found in a newbie. I don't think newbscum trying to get all initiated with mechanical in-and-outs is impossible, but the difference between Lukewarm/Dunn is the approach of things. What's also different is that Lukewarm is coming off a loss is very likely more sensitive to himself. His backing off of Dunn was far more conclusive in that regard because he was the one to initiate at first. I don't have the actual data to back this but I get the feeling in some game where Lukewarm is scum he would be more tucked inward with his thoughts. Much more reliant on his partners to help him out or afraid to give his opinion. Lukewarm's conviction to me wins out compared to Dunn's convenience.

Again, I'm not buying into the angle where Lukewarm is too newby to play as scum

Mechanics are only useful if the benefit turns into some form of a read.

Posts post]1294[/post] and 1300 is an explanation of what Luke was doing, I don't see what you are taking issue with.

Meaning, the person who is either giving or talking about the mechanics becomes readable by the conventions of such. I don't believe that is the case this game because the only useful thing given to us was already decided by scum. That being said, it's great that I really only have to be wrong on one of Catboi/S_S. I think Catboi's thoughts keep unprepared compared to S_S's already decided thoughts. I've struggled to see Point A to Point B with him. I've already talked about why I was leaning on S_S being town but I'm willing to correct that decision here. I think to break this line of thought what frustrates me is. When a lot of people scumread you, then it's hard to figure out how to argue against people. I want Catboi to trust me and I don't know how to entirely do that. S_S/Catboi share one similarity however which doesn't make my answer definitive compared to Dunn/Lukewarm. They know themselves to such a scary degree and both play in such a way that is almost always UTR. Those type of scum don't really buckle easy and will rely on their idiosyncrasies to cover up misplays. The issue of me leaning S_S instead of Catboi here is that I guess I just find Catboi much more approachable despite his apprehension towards me. I'm not sure if I personally offended him for some reason but that one line of him being like 'why should you care what I think' just really stuck out to me. I do care for one and two that emotive trait makes me think his catch-up is not a given choice. That he isn't just

pretending

to catch-up. At the end of the day, all S_S has done is stay true to himself but it hasn't really done favors for him, especially in D2. He's not really one to reach out and I think he's more afraid of errors in that regard. Catboi seems more willing to take chances.

I don't see where Catboi is willing to take chances.

If you want actual mechanics talk, I can once again bring up how me, s_s, and infinity were the last three outside of a location, and that I went to the wall kind of suddenly, which draws attention to myself for no reason if we're all together

[Dunnstral]

This likely affects my solve, would all mafia members pick a location early?
Is Luke scum who pretended to want the keep?

Did S_S have ulterior motives for wanting infinity at the wall?

By the way, if Infinity was at the wall you guys would have probably elimmed him

[Dunnstral]

*her

[Dunnstral]

I was only going off what Dunn was saying which was practically you cleared another as town in your mech interactions. That made me lash out a little bit

I apologize

I need to catch up on my sleep as it does make me a bit irrational

Wow, that's the opposite of what I said, in fact

[Dunnstral]

This is interesting because it's positing a decision between me vs Anastasia as the IC as opposed to Briar. TMI?

My thinking was that Anastasia was likely to vote for something_smart while I wasn't sure what the intention of swapping you in would be

[Dunnstral]

I still think that catboi latching on to me talking about ana-briar on day 1 is a scum tell

And then one of either Luke or Unwnd, who were also latched onto that, is the other

[Dunnstral]

catboi is close to null but leans scum because he was focused way more on talking about how I was shading ana/briar than what I was actually talking about.

[Dunnstral]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

[Dunnstral]

How's this for a towntell

If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.

Here is what I was working with when I asked about Ana being swapped

S_S was saying they wouldn't have picked Absinthe to be swapped

[Dunnstral]

And briar is somebody who I believed would listen to other people as well, rather than make a personal call

[Dunnstral]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

He did. and?

So you're putting too much faith in briar-catboi interactions not looking scum aligned when he could have been banking on that

[Dunnstral]

Dunn I don't remember you giving many specific reads at all honestly

Why are you trying to champion being right on Briar, and if that's the case

Why did you just let what happened, happen

You could've gone Keep?

What are you talking about?

[Dunnstral]

I've talked extensively about why I picked why to go into the wall

[Dunnstral]

Are you mixing up the keep and the gate?

[Dunnstral]

Which means that townies shouldn't yeet themselves into the keep right now as it can make a sort of easy win turn much harder

I didn't fully trust ana and expected briar to be swapped out, and wouldn't know who to vote for (other than myself, which I'd suspect others would be unlikely to vote for if I jumped into the keep)

[Dunnstral]

Not going to accept that as a townslip.

[Dunnstral]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

He did. and?

So you're putting too much faith in briar-catboi interactions not looking scum aligned when he could have been banking on that

How does that follow from Catboi wanting the keep flipped first.

It reveals briar as scum so you then look at her iso first

[Dunnstral]

Though I do think unwnd is more likely to slip that way as scum than Dunn?

unwnd how hands-on are you usually in decisions as scum

I'm not sure what you're asking me?

The keep was filled when I locked in at the wall

[Dunnstral]

I find when Dunn is town the ends justify the means. When he's scum, he spends a lot of time in this mode of fake thinking. There's a more general vagueness and I feel like he's less battered because he doesn't want to risk the attention. This plays in part of him idling at times. Dunn isn't a hyperposter and keeps to himself, and I don't think he's the scum to make big moves. He waits for people to make mistakes and then capitalizes on them.

Okay so... does that explain 755? Did you know it wasn't really bravado?

It seemed pretty fake honestly yeah

Was I right or not?

Are you saying that you're not partnered with Infinity because of that post?

Not exactly

I'm saying I'm not scum because scum sat back and waited for absinthe to finally jump into the keep, whereas if I were scum either I or my team (but probably me) would have simply went into the keep before that rather than all get poe'd down at the end.

In my mind, if I'm scum, the keep is already lost if 3 town are in it, and we would have to toss 1 person in anyway. Having 1 person scum claim to join it and mess with the other 2 groups is worth it.

The current group of scum did not agree, and that became apparent when multiple people latched onto me by saying I was shading briar/ana instead of actually engaging with my points

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you voted Wall before S_S voted Gate right?

Official Vote Count 1.05

---

Preparation

Gate

(1): catboi

Wall

(1): unwnd

Keep

(2): Briar, Anastasia

Unassigned

(5): Dunnstral, Infinity 324, absinthe, Lukewarm, Something_Smart

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-18 18:31:49).

Mod notes:

Only votes for the Gate, Wall, or Keep will be counted.

Official Vote Count 1.06

---

Preparation

Gate

(2): catboi, Something_Smart

Wall

(3): unwnd, Lukewarm, Dunnstral

<-- FULL

Keep

(3): Briar, Anastasia, absinthe

<-- FULL

Unassigned

(1): Infinity 324

Deadline:

(expired on 2021-05-18 18:31:49).

Mod notes:

Day ends when all but one player have voted.

With your theory in mind dunn Re: scum waited for absin to jump to keep that makes Infinity left out scum, one of catboi/S_S, and then Me/You/Luke having the last?

Wall or Gate

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make right now

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand what you're trying to argue, I don't think you really do either

[Dunnstral]

I think you're misunderstanding something, because the one arguing this is you

[Dunnstral]

I don't understand why you brought up the gate/keep/wall thing

Also, from your point of view, if you think I'm scum it should matter

Thing is, I'm not scum, and my vote likely did not matter there, true

[Dunnstral]

Thing is, I'm not scum, and my vote likely did not matter there, true

That's what I've been arguing this whole time Dunn

So why did you keep bringing it up as if cleared you...

I didn't

I brought up that your solve was weird if you're assuming infinity/s_s/me are all scum who hadn't picked at the end, and you didn't really engage with that

[Dunnstral]

absinthe, do you understand how post 1124 led to me posting 1150?

[Dunnstral]

absinthe, do you understand how post 1124 led to me posting 1150?

And for the record:

S_S didn't have a choice, it was either Ana or Absinthe with him, and that wasn't a very good argument in hindsight

That said, I do think absinthe being sent out was in its own merits a strategical merit for briar and the keep

[Dunnstral]

No, I'm trying to explain that 1150 wasn't "TMI"

[Dunnstral]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

[Dunnstral]

Thing is, I'm not scum, and my vote likely did not matter there, true

That's what I've been arguing this whole time Dunn

So why did you keep bringing it up as if cleared you...

I didn't

I brought up that your solve was weird if you're assuming infinity/s_s/me are all scum who hadn't picked at the end, and you didn't really engage with that

Alright the full solve was wrong but it was never based on partner interaction

You lean Catboi over S_S right? For Ydra's partner

The point was your solve was wonky but it felt like you were brushing that aside and powering through anyway

And yes, I lean Catboi

[Dunnstral]

No, I'm trying to explain that 1150 wasn't "TMI"

What looks like TMI was not considering Briar as an IC swap.

Right, and I'm trying to explain that post 1124 led to me talking about anastasia, because I believed it was worth considering why anastasia wasn't sent over if s_s was town, considering anastasia was pretty tunneled in her solve.

I didn't mention briar because for what I was thinking about, you and briar were interchangeable: neither of you were tunneled on either catboi or s_s. So the question was solely why anastasia wasn't moved over. Does that make sense?

[Dunnstral]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

What was the stuff about my playstyle about, then?

I didn't know that briar was mafia at the time. I was asking you so you'd think about (and so I could think about) why you would be sent over and what that means for catboi/s_s alignments; this comes out while I'm thinking about post 1124

[Dunnstral]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

What was the stuff about my playstyle about, then?

I didn't know that briar was mafia at the time. I was asking you so you'd think about (and so I could think about) why you would be sent over and what that means for catboi/s_s alignments; this comes out while I'm thinking about post 1124

And you thought that I would be inclined to follow other players' reads?

That was the part that caught my attention when I first read the post (and I also thought Briar was town).

Yes, I did think that, but I also asked you

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Luke

Do you remember how frazzled, out of sorts, contradictory and volatile my stances were during the last 48 hours of the Newbie Day 2?

Spoiler: Absinthe

Yeah. Do you remember how overwhelmed I was by the end of the last day of the Newbie game? Thats kinda where I am again. Like, I get caught up on the thread, but before I can really process, there are 2 more pages of posts. Rinse and repeat.

and it doesn't help that I think I am in too many games atm. I decided to try playing 2 games at once, but then another newbie asked me specifically to join a game with them because they were afraid of leaving the newbie queue for the first time without someone they had played with before, and I didnot want to be the reason they disappeared from the site, so now I am in 3 games and they all keep moving, and I'm just like aaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler: Luke

This game moves in fits and starts. Hopefully you're not feeling like you need to address every single thing this time.

I used to play a lot of games simultaneously. it can be done. and night phases are a nice break! (don't sign up for another game just because things go slack for a couple of days, though!)

I wanted to point up this: I'm kinda getting a similar vibe from unwnd to how I felt like my posts were coming off in that newbie game.

Spoiler: Absinthe

I lowkey love this little side conversation we are having while they are arguing around us. Like we are just writing letters back and forth to one another lol

But yeah, I get that same energy too. Like in that game you felt like you were showing up to fight an uphill battle, because your slot was being hard accused of being scum before you ever even entered the game (and then

someone

was tunneling you the whole time) :oops: :oops: . And like, I get that same energy from Unwnd this game.
But honestly, it really confuses me because from his pov, he should feel like he is going to win our mini game if I am townreading him, but it feels like he is constantly approaching the conversation as thought he is in this giant uphill battle, despite me having stated that I was leaning more towards him being town over Dunn. Like I am finding it hard to get into his head for why he would be feeling the way that he is given the game state. Especially so when we all assumed we were winning the Keep
And not being able to get into his head is the only reason I have started doubting my TR on him.

Spoiler: Luke

If I were in max insomnia mode this would game would be killing me and I'd probably be struggling as much or more than I did in the newbie game. the minigames all happening at once makes a lot of additional info to process, follow and keep in memory. I had to resort to sticky notes for a while, just so I could read a post without having to search back through the thread for key info related to it.

When I'm scum, I actually find it easier to keep mental track of the critical-to-me info -- how each player appears to be reading me, my teammates, each other; which stances look like they're changing or could change; and my own stances and how I think I want them to evolve. That info tends to get buried when I'm town because I'm looking to sort players, not weave a path through them. Food for thought.

Gate or Wall first? What gives to most info for the other?

[Dunnstral]

Now that we have to solve both I'm not against doing the wall first

[Dunnstral]

I thought about it some more and it made sense to me to keep the keep around so we had more people to talk to

[Dunnstral]

I thought about it some more and it made sense to me to keep the keep around so we had more people to talk to

What do you mean by more people to talk to?

Having ana and briar to discuss the gate and wall with

[Dunnstral]

I thought about it some more and it made sense to me to keep the keep around so we had more people to talk to

What do you mean by more people to talk to?

Having ana and briar to discuss the gate and wall with

But wouldn't doing the Gate first mean we lose Absinthe / SS / Catboi to talk about the wall?

2 is a bigger number than 1, and between gate/wall it's better to figure out thegate and then win through the keep

Also, keep was already solved in my mind. I wanted opinions on the gate.

[Dunnstral]

She specifically asked for townies

[Dunnstral]

Here is my thinking:

Lukewarm feels genuine, from what I know of unwnd they tend to convey a lot of their real emotions when they play as scum. A good portion of that, when scum, is anger as if they've been wronged in some way, which is a lot of what we've seen here

[Dunnstral]

I don't know if you really think that

[Dunnstral]

I'm having trouble seeing Luke as scum here so I'm rationalizing you being scum by saying you show a lot of emotion as scum

[Dunnstral]

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)

[Dunnstral]

You make me afraid to get your alignment wrong

[Dunnstral]

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)

What games have you played with scum-unwnd?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85197&user_select[]=32950

Scum partner here is FL and you can see how unwnd performs theatre, andhas some complaints, and posts a lot. Big word count.

After looking that game over I wouldn't feel comfortable towning them for anything in this game, they put their all into scum

[Dunnstral]

viewtopic.php?f=160&t=85653
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=85703
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=83142

[Dunnstral]

What was your alignment in the aborted TM game?

Both town in that one

[Dunnstral]

Last one we were scum together, Dunn

You're right

[Dunnstral]

too wolfy to be a wolf?

[Dunnstral]

I don't think you've actually seen me in a XYLO as town but this is very close to my behavior

[Dunnstral]

scum are not holding back this game

[Dunnstral]

Luke, the reason my read on you changed was because once you got over the mechanics and started trying to sort alignments you came across as genuine

[Dunnstral]

scum are not holding back this game

there are two very different ways to read this lol

[Dunnstral]

yes