Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[absinthe]

y'all gonna make me crazy.

[absinthe]

I don't think they did? At the very least, I was never against you being at the keep that I can recall. I didn't townread you as much as the other two, but I think I kept myself from expressing any reservation I had in-thread.

Absinthe at the moment wouldn't be anywhere close to my choices for the keep.

[absinthe]

I'm undecided between catboi and S_S right now.

I feel like catboi suffers from my having little familiarity with his playstyle and I'm working on leveling that aspect of the playing field.

[absinthe]

does unwnd AtE this hard if he's scum about to be boxed in? :s

I legit don't remember how he responded to pressure as town in FL vs Hectic

I spectated Draft Mafia while unwnd was in it. He was pretty salty about being misread. He was the day 3 miselim. It was a replacement slot though.

[absinthe]

I thought there were some random players in this player list and they turned out to be alts.

This is a *good* game. better than I anticipated.

[absinthe]

I dunno, maybe it's because that's a part of why I'm scumreading you right now and I'm sensitive to it, but it just feels like you keep saying that you're feeling that kind of way as if to... make yourself seem real? IDK. I think the frustration is real but it's not because you're frustrated town but scum in this position instead, and you're portraying it like town frustration.

p-edit: I think it's honest but I think you might be framing it a certain way.

I feel what I feel regardless of alignment. I don't think you being cautious of my takes is something that frustrates me. I like your objectiveness in this area. It's like I've mentioned before--not being given an honest shot when it comes to my logic is what tilts me the most

Help me solve Gate?

[absinthe]

I thought there were some random players in this player list and they turned out to be alts.

This is a *good* game. better than I anticipated.

You always have to watch out for the secret weeaboo alts ♡ฅ(ᐤˊ꒳ฅˋᐤ♪)

I think I just need more data from you. You've posted less than any other player and a lot of your posts are in catch-up mode.

[absinthe]

Speaking of votes: when is the best time for us to flip? Assuming Keep first is still the preferred move — the other groups will be harder to resolve but I don’t know when it’s best to give up our presence vs. confirmed flips.

I want your and anastasia's thoughts about the Gate (catboi vs S_S as town) for my own sake, and of course ALL the thoughts about the Wall in case I screw up the Gate.

I have more of a handle on S_S's towngame. I played twice(?) with catboi in 2013-2014. I haven't gone back to look at those games, but iirc in one he was town and in the other he was scum (and ironically I replaced into an IC slot). I feel like meta that stale is probably not all that useful. I've spectated a couple games that town-catboi played and I feel like there's a lot of alignment ambiguity in his town game.

Oh god, I have no memory of those games at all, but I'm sure they're incredibly cringe and should never be looked at

And I read all 22 pages of the Majiffy micro that had the bell curve probability of night actions working earlier. :/

(I loved Beli/my hydra's name.

Still haven't read the GiF game where you were scum, though~

[absinthe]

Like seriously, someone back me up here: How does that post make any sense from a town POV who is scumreading unwnd?

hmm.

What do you think it says about unwnd's alignment?

[absinthe]

bertkerberos was a strange hydra to try to read.

[absinthe]

Like seriously, someone back me up here: How does that post make any sense from a town POV who is scumreading unwnd?

hmm.

What do you think it says about unwnd's alignment?

It might mean he's town because otherwise I don't see why s_s puts so much emphasis on why he needs to win the gate but honestly my head is spinning trying to figure it out. I would expect him to not be so overtly fatalistic with a partner on the chopping block.

On individual merits it's very hard for me to see unwnd as town though.

My only strong townread in that group is Luke.

If he's scum this game I will laugh many tearful hollow laughs.

[absinthe]

bertkerberos was a strange hydra to try to read.

I don't want to go back to read the whole thing but I think I was hung up on them because their posting seemed to be almost entirely filler to me but they made a big deal about how much they were "contributing" even though it was mostly spam. It was bad. Although I don't think I was great either.

That was the bert part of the hydra. He was not easy to read, but his scum game was a sort of hyper-exaggerated caricature of his towngame. I used to describe it as a burlesque impression of town-bert. If nacho posted enough, I'd just read that head for the most part.

[absinthe]

Sigh.

I think it's you, S_S.

[absinthe]

bertkerberos was a strange hydra to try to read.

I don't want to go back to read the whole thing but I think I was hung up on them because their posting seemed to be almost entirely filler to me but they made a big deal about how much they were "contributing" even though it was mostly spam. It was bad. Although I don't think I was great either.

That was the bert part of the hydra. He was not easy to read, but his scum game was a sort of hyper-exaggerated caricature of his towngame. I used to describe it as a burlesque impression of town-bert. If nacho posted enough, I'd just read that head for the most part.

I think I had been expecting more from Nacho. IDK. My analysis was pretty bad. I had a terrible record in lylo as town, that newbie game I just finished was probably the first time I feel like I've really played well in one.

What attracted you to this setup?

[absinthe]

[absinthe]

I still townread Luke, I think. Need to look back at some things.

[absinthe]

Who can expound upon how Ydrasse treats/behaves around scum partners in the game thread?

[absinthe]

Well this makes Gate super super easy now! Because why would I ever 1v1 catboi when I can 1v1 Infinity instead?

Not really.

[absinthe]

Reading Briar's iso is a pain in the ass.

Which was the point.

going through it all as performative and agenda driven though. fuuuuu.

[absinthe]

You can call it a soulread I guess.

Ok, what specifically about his play looks beyond the scumrange of 90%+ of MS players?

For unwnd to be scum he would have to have crafted a seamless narrative of how he can and can't approach reading people in this game. Every time there's something that's opaque for him he comes in with the perfect emotional tenor, perfect level of frustration, and incredible depth of his thought process. It would be such an immense talent to be able to put yourself in a town mindset so deeply to be able to fake that.

So, uhhh. We have 2 new confirmed town, and Infinity made the case for town unwnd, and Ana made the case for scum unwnd. Which, uhh... does not help me very much

This is why I want to know more about how ydrasse treats scum partners.

I feel like she defended unwnd from anastasia and yet also tried to get on his good side early on.

She had a fair bit of influence on what you and I both decided to do regarding our placement in the mini games. I think more so than any other placements.

she had catboi as the scum at the Gate, knowing that she'd flip first, so everything is wifom-infused, but still there has to be a path she and her team planned for the win.

[absinthe]

Not really.

Do you not think that Infinity and I were scummier by consensus than catboi was?

By consensus?

[absinthe]

We're playing

three

two intertwined games here, and I'm finding it DIFFICULT. Not only do bare, quote-free posts, obscure WHO we're talking about, they also obscure which minigame we're talking about.

When it's possible/not too much of a pain by phone, or w/e, please please please quote the post you're responding to.

[absinthe]

SS is majorly failing the vibe check right now - the emotional tenor of his posts is completely off. It's what Gamma Emerald got caught on in Binding of Isaac - something unusual happens but he doesn't know how to react like he would as town and his posts come out sounding flat.

Why would he be taken by surprise by Briar's self-hammer?

[absinthe]

SS is majorly failing the vibe check right now - the emotional tenor of his posts is completely off.

The emotional tenor of my posts is EXACTLY where it ought to be as town right now, what are you even talking about?? I'm pissed that absinthe continues to not see this and now it's probably going to cost us the game and I have to keep flinging stuff at you because every separate argument I've made (which is a lot more than YOU have made) has come to nothing.

I feel like you've spent more time trying to prove that you're town than making a case on catboi. It's not a binary, but more effort has gone to the former on day 2 than the latter. Can you refocus a little?

[absinthe]

SS is majorly failing the vibe check right now - the emotional tenor of his posts is completely off. It's what Gamma Emerald got caught on in Binding of Isaac - something unusual happens but he doesn't know how to react like he would as town and his posts come out sounding flat.

Why would he be taken by surprise by Briar's self-hammer?

The flip wasn't what people were expecting but he's not reacting to it like it was a surprise.

If I weren't confirmed town, I would have been pretty matter-of-fact about the flip: "welp." and moved on to recalibrating.

[absinthe]

I don't think scum were playing with partners in mind from the go, that feeling does not change even if Ydra was one of them. I think they were focusing on their own strengths. Ydra to me just happened to invade a town bubble and let Ana confbias her into a win for scum. I don't really feel like there's much deeper analysis beyond that unless you want to argue that Ydra/S_S/Me had to fold eventually? Because I assume that's where you still think the other two scum are

who is this post to?

[absinthe]

It was to Catboi then I got ninja'd like four times

I don't understand what you mean by fold.

[absinthe]

I feel like you've spent more time trying to prove that you're town than making a case on catboi. It's not a binary, but more effort has gone to the former on day 2 than the latter. Can you refocus a little?

I'm so so so bad at cases.

I can make a case on catboi if you want. But it's going to suck. So if you say that I'm scum because my case on catboi sucks, after I gave you this warning, I will scream irl.

Requoting this on the new page to make sure it doesn't get buried.

Absinthe, would you like to see a case on catboi?

Seeing the thought process would be helpful, yeah.

Folding meaning that S_S switched to me and Ydra both switched to me for distancing purposes. The funny thing is that S_S has been pretty consistent in disliking me so I give him that lol

I'm sure I'm being an obtusebear, but I don't understand why you're calling it "distancing".

Pretty much this absin

[absinthe]

misplaced my question to the 2nd quote: I'm sure I'm being an obtusebear, but I don't understand why you're calling it "distancing".

[absinthe]

D1:
Ana - unwnd is scum
S_S - unwnd is scum
Dunn - unwnd is town
Lukewarm - unwnd is town
Catboi - unwnd is scum
Infinity - don't remember if she gave a read
You - unwnd is scum?
Ydra - unwnd is town

D2:
Ana - unwnd is scum
S_S - unwnd is scum
Dunn - unwnd is scum
Lukewarm - unwnd is scum
Catboi - unwnd is scum
Infinity - unwnd is town (lol)
You - unwnd is?
Ydra - unwnd is scum

See the difference?

I was at ? on Day 1. Can't remember if I posted it, but my tentative day 1 solve was Dunn/Something_Special/infinity, with catboi and you as question marks. That's how I started day 2, also. Being the Night 1 swap-ee/IC should have been a much bigger red flag to me about the Keep.

[absinthe]

@Absinthe, I had some thoughts before the Briar flip about the Wall and Gate solves, in a "If x is scum at the wall, then y is scum at the gate" and vice versa, but all of that thinking was built around Infinity being scum. I am now quite unsure about the gate.

Please, for the love of God, let us resolve the Wall before the Gate. Because I do not want to have to cast my vote after you have left the thread, so you can tell me if I end up tunneling again.

Going last suits my indecisive, paralytic ass quite well.

[absinthe]

Can you explain why you think the two pairs are the same alignment?

[absinthe]

Wall:

Unwnd (1), Luke (5), Dunn (7)

Keep:

Briar (2), Ana (3), absinthe (6)

Gate:

catboi (4), Something_Special (8), infinity

I guess my question is why scum-Dunn would wait until almost too late to lock into the Wall.

Thinking a bit, in a perfect world I think my groups right now would look like this:

Gate: Absinthe/Anastasia/Catboi
Wall: Unwnd/Dunnstral/Something_Smart
Keep: Briar/Lukewarm/Infinity

I think Unwnd/Infinity are interchangeable for the last two, but the Gate group would resolve a few of my reads? Like, confirming whether or not absinthe/Ana is T/T or T/S (because if it's S/S What The Fuck) would be important to me, and also it'd be nice if that was the case because I haven't gotten anything really Good from catboi yet and seeing whether or not he was confirmed would be cool. (This is also the assumption that the mafia would make the conversation between the former keep on going to the death? I think? Like there's already some uh, doubts between absinthe/Ana that they've vocalized so duh mafia preys on that.) This is the group with maximum WIFOM fuckery though so I worry that I'd get snowed pretty fast were mafia to divert from this but I'm gonna assume they'd play it sort of straightforward despite me talking about all this stuff out loud.

For the wall group, that's honestly the group where I'm like... could be any alignment, and I wouldn't be too surprised? I lean town on unwnd, actually, I townread unwnd now that I think about it a little bit just from how he's been playing even if I was questioning the 'why' he was trying to be so... diplomatic? I guess? It doesn't feel slimy like he's trying to placate people so much as just... figure shit out, so far. Which is nice. The latter two I have less experience with and in general don't find easy reads, so resolving that is a bit out of my paygrade. I am curious still about S_S's guess on me and why it bothered him, because he didn't say anything about it more and while I appreciate him not outting it for fear it's correct, it's a little... IDK. I guess my expectation was that he'd engage me even if my reply to him was very silly, because if it's something he was worrying about a bit he'd attempt to resolve it somehow.

And the last group, I Am Town, Luke has felt good so far and I do think that like, while he's not new to the site, the format itself is something he's still adjusting to and trying to keep up as mafia while in a group playing the Townie Pageant Game would probably be hell for him. If he's town he feels like he's the safest vote for us to pick and if he's scum he'll probably slip or something and we just vote either myself or Infinity if she's in here with us, and it's easy from there on.

As for order of who we let stay first, I think that (in the little world I am creating here) I'd let Wall > Keep > Gate do their votes? Actually, uh, probably Keep first now that I am thinking about it because if we're all voting for townreads and this is somehow the group that gets messed up and votes mafia, it'd be important to reset assuming we'd placed at that point a decent amount of trust into their reads. The IC should stick around as long as needed to dictate everything obviously, but now that I'm working through it I am very much into the Keep going first unless we all collectively agree one person is /disgustingly/ townie (sidenote: hey I'm the disgustingly townie one lol) and wanna see their reads or something pending a Wall-flip.

My brain is not functioning after typing this. Please enjoy.

This is a lot of wrong.

What we do isn't locked in, it depends on everyone's location and who gets swapped. We should probably solve one of the swapped groups first. Probably the IC group or the keep group if applicable, because those are the easier groups for town.

Wall group should go last, it is the hardest for town.

I don't think that wall grouping is a good idea but that's just my opinion

The

Gate

is where we should have/should put the towniest members, for obvious reasons, except for 1 person we are voting at the keep

I don't want to tell the scumteam how to play but it's pretty obvious they're going to send briar into the gate and then ic her

The three posts above, I feel like Dunn doesn't post this if he's scum with Briar.

If Briar and Anastasia are both town, Why doesn't anybody care/want to be in the keep? Shouldn't mafia want to put a member in there so they can swap more effectively?

Prescient.

[absinthe]

absinthe I still don't understand why you think I pick you as the IC over Briar.

I feel like this post wouldn't have occurred to scum-SS to make.

[absinthe]

If you had voted yourself in to the Keep, I would most likely would have immediately voted the Gate.

I am idly wondering how that would have played out. We might have wound up both in the Gate, with you the likely IC.

A scenario like that was why I thought I would be a decent player to go to the Gate. In fact, the recollection of a newbie game where I replaced into a town slot at 5P ELO with 2 confirmed town was why the Gate was my second choice. The way I chose to play that situation worked pretty well as the unconfirmed town in ELO.

Neither Catboi nor S_S began day 2 here the way I approached that game, which is curious, but <idiosyncratic player>.

[absinthe]

I guess my question is why scum-Dunn would wait until almost too late to lock into the Wall.

I mean, he voted into the wall immediately after I voted into the wall. He made no other posts between my vote and his.

So he waited and chatted when there were 2 slots in each. Once there was only 1 slot left, his next post was an empty vote.

But I do get your point that he probably could have gone to the wall sooner

Dunn's first or 2nd post indicated he wanted to go to the Wall. He didn't telegraph the bejesus out of his intentions the way I did, but he did make his intentions clear, I guess.

S_S went ahead and voted because he wanted to end the day and stop the conversations. There are town reasons to want to do that.

Scum probably had more than enough info to decide how they wanted to set up Day 2, though, so it wouldn't be giving up much in exchange for doing the townie thing there.

[absinthe]

I feel like there has to be some good data in the post-swap pre-keep-flip section of the thread and that's where I'm focusing right now.

I'm going to reread catboi/S_S, because I had it the other way around versus Ana yesterday and with the switch happening as it did I feel even more confident in like... trying to collaborate and listen.

Can you explain why? You kept saying you thought I might be scum yesterday but it never really went beyond "not towny enough" and "reacted to me moving funny"

Mmm. I really just didn't like the way you responded to how I was behaving, honestly? It doesn't make sense to me for you to have that sort of reaction -- like, I dunno, you can just... challenge me yourself if you're town? Like, it felt emotionally out of place more than anything, disconnected from what you could have done. And in general I'm gonna be real, I can't remember much else you did beyond that but that's generally a sign to me that scum is like, either failing to keep up or is making content up that's passable.

But, knowing that you are a good scum player, I think I should give you some benefit that you could do more than passable; in the moment, my read is also somewhat anchored on the fact that you're fighting S_S who I thought was town yesterday which makes me wanna hunker down and just throw you out right now.

I don't understand whaat you mean. By "challenge you" do you mean go to the keep myself? Because I didn't think you were automatically scum for it, I just didn't understand wat you were doing and was...a little frustrated I guess because I'd had a plan for how I wanted to do things and you disrupted it before I had a chance to post. So everything in my reaction after was trying to understand why you did it because I wasn'tgoing to assume you wer town, I wanted to question you to figure out if what you were doing made sense. And ultimately I concluded that I didn't see scum motivation in your play. But it feels like you're hung up on the severity of that initial reaction and, uh, maybe a little upset by it and looking at things objectively? Because I have no idea how you'd categorize me as "less memorable" than something_smart, really.

And, uh, thank for the compliment but I don't think I'm

that

good considering my recent games. (also this narrows your identity down to a few people but none of them seem to quite fit >_>)

Okay, so, for me I scumread that frustration; my assumption was that it was more the sort of frustration that comes from scum who's pissed off frankly that town has jumped the gun and has suddenly limited the options for scum to weasel in. This also compounded with the fact that I believe you were later to get into things, even just by a little bit, and lost an important moment that comes with the very beginning of games.

I wasn't upset by it and I don't think I'm hung up; frankly it was the scummiest thing that I could recall from D1. I was townreading Ana/absinthe hard, Luke/Unwnd/S_S to varying degrees, leaving you/Dunn/Infinity as the three and with you having the singular Thing that was like, the worst to me. Maybe I was being too harsh on that when it was happening because it was easy to latch onto, but I dunno. I want to believe that maybe somehow I am a good player and can get things right with my reads sometimes.

S_S was rather active mechanically, and I remembered that. Like, it made an impact on me. Maybe it was being recent that sort of... blurred my memory of you, but right now I'm trying to figure out between you two and I'm willing to take a step away from my read from yesterday.

What do you think about the Wall right now? Who would you vote out?

(And hehe.)

Does this feel partnery? I don't think it does.

But, I am extremely wary that they both are really good at partner interactions.

the way you two solve for the wall is pretty important for figuring out the right one between the two of you to flip

remember the scum on the Gate can't really bus the scum on the Wall if the Keep is already townsided.

And of course, while it sounded great at the time, bussing is very much an option here.

Okay, Ana, hear me out...

I think that S_S might be town for how Infinity was pushing him versus catboi.

(I'm treating Infinity like she's flipped scum currently which, maybe is not the best method but it's the likely outcome here.)

Stuff like this from Briar...meaningless. And she knew we'd know it's meaningless, looking back. But I HATE to ignore the biggest iso in the game.

How's this for a towntell

If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.

I want to trust this sentiment but I just...can't.

I'm very much in the depths of self-doubt, though.

Hahaha, okay.

I miss you absinthe, and I am so sorry Infinity.

Can I still have a glass of wine?

NOT THE KIND OF WINE I WANTED

Okay, so, for me I scumread that frustration; my assumption was that it was more the sort of frustration that comes from scum who's pissed off frankly that town has jumped the gun and has suddenly limited the options for scum to weasel in. This also compounded with the fact that I believe you were later to get into things, even just by a little bit, and lost an important moment that comes with the very beginning of games.

I wasn't upset by it and I don't think I'm hung up; frankly it was the scummiest thing that I could recall from D1. I was townreading Ana/absinthe hard, Luke/Unwnd/S_S to varying degrees, leaving you/Dunn/Infinity as the three and with you having the singular Thing that was like, the worst to me. Maybe I was being too harsh on that when it was happening because it was easy to latch onto, but I dunno. I want to believe that maybe somehow I am a good player and can get things right with my reads sometimes.

S_S was rather active mechanically, and I remembered that. Like, it made an impact on me. Maybe it was being recent that sort of... blurred my memory of you, but right now I'm trying to figure out between you two and I'm willing to take a step away from my read from yesterday.

What do you think about the Wall right now? Who would you vote out?

(And hehe.)

I mean the thing is I'm way more likely to have a restrained reaction in that situation as scum, I don't let my real feelings leak out into the game because that gets me judged. Flipping out at a townie establishing themselves as town only ends up reflecting poorly on me. Like if I were scum I'd probably come in, question you coolly, and then just gradually turn up the heat and start undermining you. But my goal isn't to do that, it's to solve whether you are town and I feel like that was reflected in my approach, I wasn't coming at you with a predetermined conclusion. In general I have a harder time keeping my emotions in check as town, it's not good thing but it just tends to happen with me.

From everything I understand of something_smart, him being active mechanically is completely and utterly NAI. Why would you treat it as a towntell?

Right now as a GTH answer I'd say unwnd at the wall based on my gut feelings from day 1 but that's not a super confident read.

Okay, well, I wouldn't say you flipped out or anything for sure, but to me it did feel like your emotions seeped out a little bit despite you trying to keep them in check since you were frustrated. I don't know how I feel about you saying that you have a harder time keeping yourself in line as town though if that's the case... OTL Ugh. Okay. WHat do you think about what I said WRT Infinity/S_S not being paired? Since the implication is that you fill up the slot and, yeah.

Do you think that whenever S_S posts about mechanics, his alignment stops existing? I remembered it, which (and this is a shortcoming of mine as a player) meant I was prone more to townreading him, and it was not just for the fact he was active but I liked how he sounded while he was talking about those mechanics. I'm not treating him posting about mechanics alone as a towntell and I'm unsure if something was lost in translation there.

Okay, has anything today been influential on you yet?

AAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH

How's this for a towntell

If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.

I mean, I can think of some good reasons:

Although I'm not seeing the stuff I noticed about his scum game when I meta'd him a few months ago, I'm also not seeing some of the stuff I associate with his towngame.

Maybe my glasses need adjustment.

Compare with:

only if my reads are wrong

I think it's pretty silly to have a value judgement on play that is only determined after the game is over. We want to know now what's good and what isn't; so I think that it is bad play to commit yourself to a read like that, even if the read turns out to be right in the end.

I think you are stuck in a weird place where you can't decide whether you want to shade me as bold genius scum gambitter or bad town tunnel reader and it makes you sound funny

since I think you are scummy it makes me feel I'm on the right track with this briar/absinthe plan

I think you're probably approaching reading s_s not great, though he's still leaning scum for me atm. Like, he loves to talk about things in a vacuum and not come to firm conclusions,

though the way he's doing it here I feel is +scum for him.

Re the bolded what makes the way he's doing it +scum? How does it vary from his townplay?

Also, you've repeatedly said that you're not motivated enough to obvtown this game.

What's dampening your motivation?

Honestly I feel pretty good about my TRs on briar and ana, which means I think I like putting someone I also TR strongly at the keep. Absinthe would not be that player for me, but I do feel better about her than I did before.

The chances of any specific group of 3 being town is about 18% if I did my math right, which seems like something that's reasonable to try and go for. I also feel like it's reasonable to try and go for putting 2 scum in the same group (probably the wall) if we can. Then the gate could contain some null reads. Thoughts?

I'm having difficulty engaging readswise and my reads feel pretty stagnant though I feel like some are wrong. (To summarize, that's unwnd, absinthe, ana, luke and briar as town, dunn as null, and s_s and catboi as scumleans).

So let me try to work through the mechanics at least. If we try to put a third townread at the keep, we have a decent chance of putting 3 town in there. Say it's ana, briar, and absinthe. If we succeed, the best swap scum can do is probably putting one of those 3 into the gate. Ideally we'd put 2 scum in the wall if that's the case, which lets us have an extra townie in the wall and some WIFOM info about who we think scum would swap. I think I've talked myself into wanting a scummy player in the keep though, because if we have 3 town in the keep and 2 scum at the gate it's not great for us anyway. Especially since I TR unwnd and they're already at the wall.

Infinity, your read of me changes. Your strategy for how to stack the keep changes, and all of the changes seem to come down to the same answer for you.

This whole argument was going up in smoke with the Keep flip. Why make this argument as scum?

absinthe, would you say you're the kind of person who would make your own decision or would you pick what others are saying?

Or at least, how do you think you would be perceived prior to being swapped into the Gate and turned IC. I think Ana would have went with their own reads

This is interesting because it's positing a decision between me vs Anastasia as the IC as opposed to Briar. TMI?

Okay, so my strategy is basically I think we should just like, let the three of us at the Keep throw around our reads a bit and then hammer in there; I am almost positive Infinity is scum, but on the off chance Ana is being a rapscallion playing in her silly ways I don't want to freeze out Infinity entirely; that and she has to try and to like, do /something/ unless she's just not going to post at all and concede the point to town to avoid associatives.

Infinity is confirmed scum because absinthe is confirmed town at the keep

Look, you don't know Ana. She's a real trickster. An imp. Prone to the most chaotic of moves you've ever seen. She'll do something you'll never expect as scum just because she can. Because she wants to. For the thrill of a good gambit. There's nothing that could tame that wild spirit within her that just wants to see the world burn down and I am the only person here armed with a fire hose ready to extinguish it if she's on a path of destruction.

I agree with this assessment of Ana's scum game. but I kinda doubt she's scum. But it doesn't matter. I'm townreading Briar. And this is not the worst of all possible worlds!

It was. It was the worst of all possible worlds.

So Catboi and S_S both think Unwnd at the wall... why?

I did not like 755 as it felt like playing up outrage instead of actually engaging with your (valid) point
I did not at all like unwnd's townread of me. I thought catboi's point that unwnd was trying to tie themself to me was reasonable. I don't think it's any less reasonable now that I know catboi is scum.
Their opening post today is also really weird and feels hollow considering making absinthe IC makes a lot of sense from a lot of perspectives and 1/2/0 in Wall/Gate/Keep was kinda what everyone thought anyway
I thought Lukewarm had several genuine posts that would be surprising to come from new-ish scum
I would also be surprised to see scum-you talk about how you would scumclaim by instant jumping into the 2-town Keep followed by jumping into the 2-town Wall (which your team would REALLY need to win).

Does this read like a bus? I'm just going to say it. I feel like S_S is less likely to bus a strong partner than catboi is. The way thoughts were going earlier, I expected the Gate to go after the Keep. Was I that offbase?

Would a scum Briar/unwnd/catboi team see the wall as a mini that must be won? I'm still shocked how easily Briar won scum the Keep.

I guess what I'm saying is I was trying to reaction test you/infinity to see if either of you would actually be willing to go to the wall just to prove me wrong but neither of you volunteered to do that so now I feel more convinced I am actually right.

Everything about this line of reasoning is moot.

I'm just not sure how the potential order of flips would factor into scum thoughts. :/

[absinthe]

I want to trust this sentiment but I just...can't.

Well it's obviously not accurate anymore, because if I have to choose between you and Ana deciding my fate then yeah I'm picking you. But it's replaced with the much simpler argument that I don't 1v1 catboi when Infinity is right there.

how would scum-you have set up the swap?

[absinthe]

how would scum-you have set up the swap?

Catboi and you, probably? I mean like I said I wouldn't want Ana picking, but I imagine I probably would have rather gone against Infinity than against catboi.

But you'd actually be trying to set up two wins, not just the Gate.

I think a town-Catboi at the Keep would have made that mini harder for scum to win.

[absinthe]

Spoiler:

Okay, everyone cool with it? Cool.

VOTE: Keep

Let's get this.

WHY

Okay, everyone cool with it? Cool.

VOTE: Keep

Let's get this.

WHY

I'm town!

Do you assume you're going to be townread enough to be voted there? I don't understand the mindset.

Absinthe, do you think that scum! catboi would call out Briar for locking herself into the Keep? Like if Briar's goal was lock into town, then get town read hard enough to win it anyways, would her partner make it seem suspicious that she locked in early?

Every one of the 3 scum in this game has been playing from the get go with the knowledge that every scum flip comes with extreme pool-narrowing since 2 town also flip simultaneously, giving remaining town a huge opportunity to do a reset. I think judicious distancing had to be part of the plan. Briar was almost certain to be the first scum flip.

But, that whole interaction from both sides doesn't feel scum-scum to me.

[absinthe]

I think a town-Catboi at the Keep would have made that mini harder for scum to win.

Maybe? I mean people would probably have still taken it as a scumclaim swap, no? So it just comes down to whether catboi guesses right between the two UTR's.

Yeah, I'm not saying he would have been townie enough to convince Ana (or me) to vote him, but he might have correctly voted not-Briar.

Anyway, I feel like you were mostly thinking about the Gate there, not the whole game.

[absinthe]

But, that whole interaction from both sides doesn't feel scum-scum to me.

is it going to be productive for me to engage you on this? because that exchange feels like bog-standard distancing to me, especially 169.

There was a whole drawn out follow-on exchange which would veer into masterclass level distancing IMO.

I'm not dismissing the possibility that I attended a masterclass distancing seminar on Day 1.

Any thoughts about the Dunn post I pointed up as possible TMI?

[absinthe]

he might have correctly voted not-Briar.

I mean the same is also true for Infinity. I don't recall her having a strong leaning one way or the other?

catboi wasn't in Ana's day 1/day 2 solve. I think the starting place on seeing that swap might have been less certain in Ana's mind and I don't think Briar wanted Ana's mind jostled much.

Go ahead and argue the swap is equivalent, I guess.

Maybe my logic is bad, but I think your thought train on that point looked more likely to come from town.

[absinthe]

There was a whole drawn out follow-on exchange which would veer into masterclass level distancing IMO.

Is this the interaction that ends at 205 or does it go longer?

I don't see the masterclass, sorry. All I see is catboi awkwardly breaking it off after not knowing where to go with it.

1791

[absinthe]

1791

ok... what's non-partnery about that? why is it harder for Briar to write that post to a partner than to a townie?

like it's impressive analysis to fake, no doubt, but I don't see why her knowing the read is right makes it any harder to write that than knowing it's wrong. (I would think it would actually make it easier?)

She wrote it knowing her flip was likely to be the first scum flip. Either way it's fake analysis from her, it just a question to me of how deeply I want to venture into the house of mirrors going through her iso.

[absinthe]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

[absinthe]

This is interesting because it's positing a decision between me vs Anastasia as the IC as opposed to Briar. TMI?

My thinking was that Anastasia was likely to vote for something_smart while I wasn't sure what the intention of swapping you in would be

The TMI was in not considering that town-Briar was a likely swap given she was basically a UTR.

(hollow laugh regarding anastasia's worries about MY ability to be townread as scum)

[absinthe]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

He did. and?

[absinthe]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

He did. and?

So you're putting too much faith in briar-catboi interactions not looking scum aligned when he could have been banking on that

How does that follow from Catboi wanting the keep flipped first.

[absinthe]

I mean if it's WIFOM either way then what makes it masterclass distancing but just regular scum play if it's S -> T

I really don't understand that. Like yes it was good scum play by her and yes it was probably excessive, but why was it more excessive/more risky if catboi is scum? If anything it seems like it makes MORE sense S/S because they're trying to make interactions that look genuine... but ultimately yes it is WIFOM.

Assuming you're town, then you're looking at that interaction knowing that catboi is scum.

I can't do that. I have to look at it from both perspectives. It didn't ring false when I read it originally -- it read like real thoughts she was having about his play. Looking at it from the now-perspective, I know it's false from her side, but it still doesn't spew catboi as either alignment to me.

Thanks for your case. I've read it and I'm cogitating.

Catboi wanted the keep flipped first.

He did. and?

So you're putting too much faith in briar-catboi interactions not looking scum aligned when he could have been banking on that

How does that follow from Catboi wanting the keep flipped first.

It reveals briar as scum so you then look at her iso first

I am looking at interactions with her, for the most part. If I knew her playstyle better, I'd be more willing to dive into her iso and try to make something of her own posts. But, I don't. So I'm more interested in how other players interacted with known scum. And I'm feeling very "there but for the devices of scum, go I", in that if I weren't IC'd I am pretty sure that people could rake through my interactions with Briar and find some ah has.

----------------

I'm probably keeping my cards a little too close to my vest right now, but I'm very much in data acquisition mode.

[absinthe]

Spoiler: Luke

Do you remember how frazzled, out of sorts, contradictory and volatile my stances were during the last 48 hours of the Newbie Day 2?

[absinthe]

Spoiler: Luke

Do you remember how frazzled, out of sorts, contradictory and volatile my stances were during the last 48 hours of the Newbie Day 2?

Spoiler: Absinthe

Yeah. Do you remember how overwhelmed I was by the end of the last day of the Newbie game? Thats kinda where I am again. Like, I get caught up on the thread, but before I can really process, there are 2 more pages of posts. Rinse and repeat.

and it doesn't help that I think I am in too many games atm. I decided to try playing 2 games at once, but then another newbie asked me specifically to join a game with them because they were afraid of leaving the newbie queue for the first time without someone they had played with before, and I didnot want to be the reason they disappeared from the site, so now I am in 3 games and they all keep moving, and I'm just like aaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler: Luke

This game moves in fits and starts. Hopefully you're not feeling like you need to address every single thing this time.

I used to play a lot of games simultaneously. it can be done. and night phases are a nice break! (don't sign up for another game just because things go slack for a couple of days, though!)

I wanted to point up this: I'm kinda getting a similar vibe from unwnd to how I felt like my posts were coming off in that newbie game.

[absinthe]

absinthe, do you understand how post 1124 led to me posting 1150?

You're positing that a tendency toward following others' reads is why I wound up the IC?

I'm curious what leads you to think I'm that much of a follower as a general rule?

[absinthe]

No, I'm trying to explain that 1150 wasn't "TMI"

What looks like TMI was not considering Briar as an IC swap.

[absinthe]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

What was the stuff about my playstyle about, then?

[absinthe]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

What was the stuff about my playstyle about, then?

I didn't know that briar was mafia at the time. I was asking you so you'd think about (and so I could think about) why you would be sent over and what that means for catboi/s_s alignments; this comes out while I'm thinking about post 1124

And you thought that I would be inclined to follow other players' reads?

That was the part that caught my attention when I first read the post (and I also thought Briar was town).

[absinthe]

I believe you ended up as the IC so briar could win the keep, and it's null for cat/ss

What was the stuff about my playstyle about, then?

I didn't know that briar was mafia at the time. I was asking you so you'd think about (and so I could think about) why you would be sent over and what that means for catboi/s_s alignments; this comes out while I'm thinking about post 1124

And you thought that I would be inclined to follow other players' reads?

That was the part that caught my attention when I first read the post (and I also thought Briar was town).

Yes, I did think that, but I also asked you

I'm surprised you have that impression of my playstyle, but it probably comes down to the games we've played? I think I've mostly been in a hydra in our games.

[absinthe]

Spoiler: Luke

Do you remember how frazzled, out of sorts, contradictory and volatile my stances were during the last 48 hours of the Newbie Day 2?

Spoiler: Absinthe

Yeah. Do you remember how overwhelmed I was by the end of the last day of the Newbie game? Thats kinda where I am again. Like, I get caught up on the thread, but before I can really process, there are 2 more pages of posts. Rinse and repeat.

and it doesn't help that I think I am in too many games atm. I decided to try playing 2 games at once, but then another newbie asked me specifically to join a game with them because they were afraid of leaving the newbie queue for the first time without someone they had played with before, and I didnot want to be the reason they disappeared from the site, so now I am in 3 games and they all keep moving, and I'm just like aaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler: Luke

This game moves in fits and starts. Hopefully you're not feeling like you need to address every single thing this time.

I used to play a lot of games simultaneously. it can be done. and night phases are a nice break! (don't sign up for another game just because things go slack for a couple of days, though!)

I wanted to point up this: I'm kinda getting a similar vibe from unwnd to how I felt like my posts were coming off in that newbie game.

Spoiler: Absinthe

I lowkey love this little side conversation we are having while they are arguing around us. Like we are just writing letters back and forth to one another lol

But yeah, I get that same energy too. Like in that game you felt like you were showing up to fight an uphill battle, because your slot was being hard accused of being scum before you ever even entered the game (and then

someone

was tunneling you the whole time) . And like, I get that same energy from Unwnd this game.
But honestly, it really confuses me because from his pov, he should feel like he is going to win our mini game if I am townreading him, but it feels like he is constantly approaching the conversation as thought he is in this giant uphill battle, despite me having stated that I was leaning more towards him being town over Dunn. Like I am finding it hard to get into his head for why he would be feeling the way that he is given the game state. Especially so when we all assumed we were winning the Keep
And not being able to get into his head is the only reason I have started doubting my TR on him.

Spoiler: Luke

If I were in max insomnia mode this would game would be killing me and I'd probably be struggling as much or more than I did in the newbie game. the minigames all happening at once makes a lot of additional info to process, follow and keep in memory. I had to resort to sticky notes for a while, just so I could read a post without having to search back through the thread for key info related to it.

When I'm scum, I actually find it easier to keep mental track of the critical-to-me info -- how each player appears to be reading me, my teammates, each other; which stances look like they're changing or could change; and my own stances and how I think I want them to evolve. That info tends to get buried when I'm town because I'm looking to sort players, not weave a path through them. Food for thought.

[absinthe]

@absinthe.

Can you do me a favor? I want you to look over Unwnd's iso, with a specific thing in mind.

Scum!unwnd's choices are heavily influenced by Infinity's decision. If Infinity votes Briar, then scum!unwnd can push for the correct solve for Gate. Which would both be easier to build a case for, and would give him towncred if he gets to say "I told you so" if we flipped the Gate first. On the other hand if Infinity votes Ana, then he absolutely cannot build a case against the scum in the other minigame. Because that would lead to a scum lose if the Gate flips first

So basically, will you look over unwnd's iso, starting at 1016. and tell me if you get the feeling that unwnd is actively trying to solve the gate, or if it feels like he is trying to stay active but delay solving until he knows where Infinity is leaning. Again, this only matters in how unwnd is interacting with the GATE. His solve on the Wall would be independent of how things go with Infinity.


Here is a timeline of where Infinity was at throughout the thread
Post 1319 - Infinity says she thinks that Briar is the scum
Post 1403 - Infinity is still trying to decide, wants to hear from both
Post 1431 - Infinity says she thinks Ana is scum
Post 1469 - Infinity makes it clear that she is committed to Briar being town

I am worried that if I keep looking over it, I am going to confirmation bias myself. So hopefully you can give it a fresh pair of eyes.

Interestingly, this idea would apply to all of the potential scum players. Their options of how to solve the other minigame would be a lot more limited if they are still worried Infinity might vote Ana.

I want to look at this with tomorrow's brain and tomorrow's eyes.

My tired brain thoughts are that town players probably weren't paying enough attention to infinity's posts at the time, assumed the Keep was solved and were focusing on the other minigames.

[absinthe]

This readthrough of uwnd's Day 2 pre-Briar-flip iso is prompted by Luke's questions to me. Starting it, I wasn't sure if I'd wind up agreeing with Luke.

Apologies for the huge wall of quotes that I'm not going to spoiler...

Dunn I have an itch that's it you based on the way the night went down but I'm willing to be reasonable

Did you go to the wall with me because you thought Luke was scum and you could convince me? I don't remember if you answered your intent yet

What about the way the night went down points to Dunn?

Okay, Ana, hear me out...

I think that S_S might be town for how Infinity was pushing him versus catboi.

(I'm treating Infinity like she's flipped scum currently which, maybe is not the best method but it's the likely outcome here.)

Re: S_S town, I was recently there with you but not anymore

I've called out Dunn in games and he immediately retorts back, but I've felt uncomfortable with his maybe-townread of me given that other circumstances make me think he'd be less reluctant

What other circumstances?

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

I don't know why you asked me this, what prompted the question.

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

Double?

You and catboi both think I'm scum

This explains it, but still double bussed implies both are scum and we know that's not the case. Just a joke? Yeah, just a joke per 1211

You and catboi both think I'm scum

Well that's only a single bus

You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow that

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

What are the reasons I should be seeing you as town?

I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town

Why? Our reads are the least relevant ones in the whole game, and it should make you look more town if it's guaranteed that scum is pushing you, no?

I don't like reading the game merely reacting to people based on my content, I'd rather come in with some choice words and try to subtly lead somewhere, hoping that my logic wins out. For both of you to think I'm scum it basically becomes 'oh great, I have to appeal to someone who is just trying to get me killed and someone who just misunderstands me' lol

This kiiinda bothers me. I mean, yeah, we have to care about what other minigames think about our minigame/us, but the reads of you that really matter (aside from helping you sort the Gate) are your minigame.

At this point of Day 2 you've focused on Dunn exclusively in the Wall.

Let's start somewhere else

The whole game pretty much agrees that Infinity is caught scum. That's very much a given. I would like to state if you're not paying attention that both the two people who have a confirmed scum in them think I'm evil. Who's bussing me?

I like this question.

I'm also trying to think about being in this position as town, where I know there is a town player misreading me paired with a scum player who's faking the read. I would get hyperfocused on it, I think.

What I don't like about the point in the game I'm reading is that you've focused within your own minigame entirely on Dunn, and don't look like you're trying to sort Luke. :/

Ok well

If I haven't made it clear enough

I have to solve the both of you

I'm fine with you two sharing a heartfelt moment over statistical data, but work with my sensibilities

Do you think that all 3 scum were the last people who hadn't voted for a position yet, and that I then hammered wall for no reason as a sort of gambit to make my team look better?\\Because if you don't think that, then you should probably think catboi is scum, actually, and we can probably win off of that

Can I say with true sincerity that thinking about what scum did last night hurts my head

I was running with my own smallbrain idea that You/Infinity got caught out. However I'm not the person to bury someone (or even try) based on mechanics. I want to treat that as happenstance exclusively

What was headhurting about what we thought scum did on N1 (scum-infinity and town-me were swapped)?

I just give her emotional tendencies more leeway than I should

In FL v Hectic I thought her funposting/anime talk was townie

In dance it wasn't exactly like that, but I don't think I have a potential grasp on her towngame. I want to believe this is the game though? I can't be wrong three times in a row

There's a lot of ambivalence here. It makes sense to have ambivalence given their history, but it was not a sentiment I noticed from other players about Briar.

Just saying please reconsider regardless of Infinity's flip my innocence

I do my taxes on time and feed the hungry on weekends. I also once saved a bunch of children from a burning orphanage

How could you not townread me

~hollow laugh~


What changed S_S back from town here?

I just really see the game coming down to the Wall, not that I don't have faith in absin to make the right decision, but that's how I predict it

There's a slight breather inbetween each hammer mind you but I've been increasingly

How do I put this

Like someone is touching me and I'm telling them not to, but they're doing it anyways to get a rise out of me

That's been this whole D2 for me

~hollow laugh~ (this is me wondering if knowledge that the Keep is near-lost for town affected how this was phrased. I wonder how I would have phrased it if I were contemplating Keep goes to town and which of the two other minigames are the clutch decision at that point in the game).

You believe what you want Ydra but the fact is that the whole game hates me should tell you either that I'm just a very popular guy or scum is just riding the trend

That's the roadblock that I have when it comes to you being scum right now. I don't get what the move is for scum if they're bussing at all. They can't win like that in a setup like this.

Why did it even become consensus? D1 you had Ana who was dedicated in her solve and now D2 comes and I'm instantly scum for everyone

Even fucking lukewarm

I thought you were pretty towny D1, honestly. I think at this point though it's that there are other people that are either confirmed/close to confirmed and you sort of... didn't keep up, maybe? It's not like you're playing bad IMO, but this is a good table.

I know what people have said but if I am being scumread as town I absolutely take it as playing bad.

I tried to correct this a bit later in D1 and my own self-assessment of quality play has gone down to the negatives

Now I can handle being scumread, I can handle disagreement

But I feel really iced out and it's fucking with my ability to solve

I feel like that's where my frustration stems

If unwnd is scum, he wrote the above knowing that infinity had even more reason to feel iced out. If unwnd is town, then he had the solace (at the time) of believing town could lose one of the Gate, Wall. I don't think this post helps me read him.

unwnd, I think that... it might be easier honestly when we flip in the Keep, less people who are not believing you, maybe? I'm sorry because it feels like you're not having fun but this really isn't anything like, personal I hope you know. <3

It's just that, how the game played out left you in this place. If you're town please just keep on solving independently if you have to and ignore everything? Sorry.

I took a deep breath

You're right

augh (at Briar, mostly)

In games there is typically at least some scum who are just playing below average or simply get swallowed by gamestate

I don't feel that way here, even Infinity refused to give up

I agree this is/was a challenging table. The game was warped by Briar's play, and I feel like town hasn't been able to use the knowledge of her alignment in solving, really. :/

And we know that departed (and remaining) town were seriously, seriously wrong in their Keep solve, and that puts the rest of their/our solves in question.

Alright.

I apologize for my agitation in some areas. I'm not going to repeat to you all about that however.

To preface this: this setup to me just creates mechanical strife. It seems like it could potentially be used for gain but at the end of the day each minigame is a XYLO where one of them just happens to have a clear. You can spin the keep as 'oh we just vote for town' but it's a very small difference and doesn't change how someone would behave. This plays in part to what I believe Catboi? said earlier about Infinity and how she's just locked into her choice like a dance game. For clarity, there is extremely little room to think that Ana is scum. I also want to believe that this is town game experience I'll be able to take away from Ydra, despite her changing her mind on me. It's not a matter of how we solve Keep in my mind rather when it comes. Infinity is playing very close to antispew in my mind and only focusing on the necessity of needing to towntell, which is a smart decision. However, I think that behavior is less directed. I don't really feel like Infinity has a set of lines she's being fed from potential mates. I think they're mostly focusing on covering their own ass much like Infinity is.

So I'm not going to look at this with associative with mind, rather consider individual play. Scum who are in their minigames in my opinion don't really need to help their partners here. They need to just focus on themselves. This is why what Dunn/Lukewarm were frustrating me, not because what Ana believes. In a XYLO, you believe you're town and you don't want the decision to fall on you, or against you. This is not behavior that is difficult to replicate, and just because you're mechanically locked into a pseudo-XYLO does not

again

change anything. I can't just believe Lukewarm/Dunn must be town for X Y Z mechanical reason, and I'm not letting either of them accept the other as town.

Right now I am leaning that Dunnstral is just playing to Lukewarm's sensibilities. I believe that Dunn will take the mechanical agreement and just run with it. I don't like how he's approached me and changed his mind about me even if a lot of people have. I think him especially just dropped the read on me once it was no longer useful. I've seen how Dunn acts towards me and he is never that reluctant to townread me. That was the initial feeling that disturbed me. Regardless, do I think Dunn as scum

planned

what happened and could come in with good intentions about his choice? Not entirely, but I think he's adaptive. I don't understand where Dunn's behavior must be genuine because the choice really wasn't his to make? That's aside the point and talking about that aspect will start a migraine.

Moving on, Lukewarm's ideas are there but they're not perfect. They have imperfections very likely found in a newbie. I don't think newbscum trying to get all initiated with mechanical in-and-outs is impossible, but the difference between Lukewarm/Dunn is the approach of things. What's also different is that Lukewarm is coming off a loss is very likely more sensitive to himself. His backing off of Dunn was far more conclusive in that regard because he was the one to initiate at first. I don't have the actual data to back this but I get the feeling in some game where Lukewarm is scum he would be more tucked inward with his thoughts. Much more reliant on his partners to help him out or afraid to give his opinion. Lukewarm's conviction to me wins out compared to Dunn's convenience.

Mechanics are only useful if the benefit turns into some form of a read. Meaning, the person who is either giving or talking about the mechanics becomes readable by the conventions of such. I don't believe that is the case this game because the only useful thing given to us was already decided by scum. That being said, it's great that I really only have to be wrong on one of Catboi/S_S. I think Catboi's thoughts keep unprepared compared to S_S's already decided thoughts. I've struggled to see Point A to Point B with him. I've already talked about why I was leaning on S_S being town but I'm willing to correct that decision here. I think to break this line of thought what frustrates me is. When a lot of people scumread you, then it's hard to figure out how to argue against people. I want Catboi to trust me and I don't know how to entirely do that. S_S/Catboi share one similarity however which doesn't make my answer definitive compared to Dunn/Lukewarm. They know themselves to such a scary degree and both play in such a way that is almost always UTR. Those type of scum don't really buckle easy and will rely on their idiosyncrasies to cover up misplays. The issue of me leaning S_S instead of Catboi here is that I guess I just find Catboi much more approachable despite his apprehension towards me. I'm not sure if I personally offended him for some reason but that one line of him being like 'why should you care what I think' just really stuck out to me. I do care for one and two that emotive trait makes me think his catch-up is not a given choice. That he isn't just

pretending

to catch-up. At the end of the day, all S_S has done is stay true to himself but it hasn't really done favors for him, especially in D2. He's not really one to reach out and I think he's more afraid of errors in that regard. Catboi seems more willing to take chances.

I feel like this is the first time on Day 2 that you've voiced thoughts on Lukewarm, and that troubles me.

My impression of S_S is that he's not at all always a UTR. Or maybe it's just that I don't come to an easy townread on him, usually. I wind up with doubts.

Regarding S_S reach-outs, Day 1 was disturbing to me due to HOW MUCH I felt he was reaching out to me, because I've always felt in our prior games that I had to engage him or we wouldn't have much interaction at all. This was particularly true of the Smokefilled Antechamber and Tenet games.

And here's the solve:

So yeah right now I think it's Dunn/Infinity/S_S. I think the person I could intentionally be most wrong about is Dunn but that isn't a situation I want him to use to get on my good side now that I've come to play ball

I feel like this solve was very well telegraphed throughout Day 2.

I have other issues with his play, but I don't think unwnd avoided having opinions on the gate prior to Infinity's vote.

[absinthe]

Actually I was calling myself an idiosyncratic player and questioning whether I should use what I think my approach would have been as a yardstick. Even in that game, I raised other townies' hackles, though I still feel I had the right grasp of the situation and approach to working through it.

That's not to say they aren't also idiosyncratic players. I think we all are. Some are further off the beaten path than others.

[absinthe]

I have such narrow slices of experience with both catboi and S_S that being in the same xylo with them is terrifying.

I don't know if my impression is accurate or fair, but I feel like catboi has more range(?) as a player and probably has a stronger scum game than S_S does.

I feel like if Luke is scum he's playing an amazingly strong game here. My paranoia about him in the newbie game actually came down to feeling that he (like I was in my first MS game) could be a ringer with a really decent scum game that wouldn't have to stand the test of meta in his first game at MS. He has a track record now, and feel like his stances and approaches are just way too deeply developed for this to be his scum game. If I get bitten here, me 'ats off to him.

For me the Wall comes down to sorting Dunn and you, with a desultory eye watching for slips in Luke's play.

[absinthe]

unwnd please don't ignore my wall-o-quotes. :/

[absinthe]

...there are questions for you

[absinthe]

@Absinthe, I had some thoughts before the Briar flip about the Wall and Gate solves, in a "If x is scum at the wall, then y is scum at the gate" and vice versa, but all of that thinking was built around Infinity being scum. I am now quite unsure about the gate.

Please, for the love of God, let us resolve the Wall before the Gate. Because I do not want to have to cast my vote after you have left the thread, so you can tell me if I end up tunneling again.

Going last suits my indecisive, paralytic ass quite well.

I think I've said this a couple times but maybe not such it stands out to other players:

I'm fine with Gate going last.

[absinthe]

What about the way the night went down points to Dunn?

It's compounded with my reason earlier in regards to how I think the scumteam is operating. Infinity got matched with Dunn/S_S purely by the circumstance. I also just generally agree with you that Lukewarm is outside of any potential range he could have, therefore it just has to be him.

I want to understand what you were thinking when you posted it though. Day 2 had just started, and you saw the swap of infinity/me, and you said it pointed to Dunn. How so?

I've called out Dunn in games and he immediately retorts back, but I've felt uncomfortable with his maybe-townread of me given that other circumstances make me think he'd be less reluctant

What other circumstances?

Me and Dunn clash a lot. I think last game we were together, I had a fleeting nullish to scum read on him (Popcorn) and it always came down to dissenting opinion. The game before that we were both jsut town. I like Dunn and I think he's a well-rounded player, but I always give myself a bit of leeway reading him. Dunn will almost always be null to me until he either A) Reveals something about his play I can pick up on B) interacts with me in such a way that I think is more telling of the times I have scumread him. I think B is the reality I am working with right now. That being said, I don't think Dunn is very good at retorting a complete argument, rather he'll do what he did to me earlier and just break it down. Very annoying to deal with especially if you have a scumread on him, because he will always look like the sane man in the argument.

I feel like I'm missing something. I was hoping the explanation would clarify your earlier post about feeling like Dunn's read of you should be less reluctant. (which I added back so I could see it all in one place).

This kiiinda bothers me. I mean, yeah, we have to care about what other minigames think about our minigame/us, but the reads of you that really matter (aside from helping you sort the Gate) are your minigame.

At this point of Day 2 you've focused on Dunn exclusively in the Wall.

That's just the hand I was dealt with really. I felt pressured in that moment to try and make out some good enough reasoning as to why I think it's Dunn and then in my head found some way to pair S_S with him. I winged it in some aspects, but I genuinely do this all the time. I have a tendency to get a thought and then use that thought as a baseline. My first feeling into this day was actually not 'ok S_S is scum', which is why I was trying to slowly build up to it and assess the room. I was coming into the day more ready to battle with Dunn and then wanting to gauge S_S/Catboi's independent reactions to me. It didn't work out as I planned and I should've just practiced restraint. That being said, what do you think about Catboi/Dunn being a potential pairing? I thought about what I said earlier in regards to S_S/Dunn not really interacting but I can't say Catboi/Dunn have either. I think Dunn right now leans Catboi but it seems like Catboi doesn't really give a shit, in fact I'd even say he doesn't really care about anything going on in the Wall.

I'm at a loss for associatives right now, but I'll take a look at the interactions between both Dunn/catboi and Dunn/S_S

~hollow laugh~


What changed S_S back from town here?

Did I switch him back? I was just shooting the shit and trying to calm myself down, making jokes in the process. No deeper thoughts

Well, you had him as a townread on Day 1 and you entered Day 2 retracting the read, but I don't see an explanation for the read-change.

(I deleted the parts of your reply that I don't have followup questions for.

[absinthe]

Luke do you want to talk about your theory from last night?

I don't have any huge insights beyond what I said in my wall of quotes.

[absinthe]

And I was like, why is Absinthe having to ask Unwnd to be doing that? Shouldn't that be the thing he is most focused on doing, but then Absinthe had to ask him.

When I asked him, I felt like I was throwing him a rope so he could pull himself out of his spin, more than wanting him to get right on solving the Gate. I'm probably sympathizing too much with the insomnia/not feeling great stuff due to being there a few weeks ago. I just remember how much it affected my play in the newbie game.

[absinthe]

unwnd's lack of solvy stuff was bothering me. But I wonder if I'm dinging him for post/content ratio, because when I read through the day 2 start through to the Keep flip, I could see his reads and progressions in his posts.

I feel like the fact that we all just kind of bought into Briar being town and then infinity being scum really impacted the directions the hunt went until the Keep flip. It's on all of town.

[absinthe]

Would the other townies please post?

[absinthe]

Catboi, I don't know if you mentioned it but I looked back on the way votes went D1.

Which was

Me (The Wall) -> Briar (The Keep) -> Ana (The Keep) and then You (The Gate).

What was your reason to go into the gate if you were townreading Briar? Which I'm pretty sure you stated you were.

I already explained this: I townread both people at the keep and figured me going there was unnecessary, people said they were okay with me going to the gate, I wanted to put pressure on other people to take action because I felt like we'd be able to read into people's spontaneous decisionmaking more.

Would the other townies please post?

Sorry, I've been around but felt like there wasn't anything for me to respond to directly and I didn't have the time and energy to reread Briar interactions today, that's my big project for tomorrow

Did you get anything from the spontaneous decision-making?

[absinthe]

@Absinthe, how long do you want to leave yourself to solve the Gate, post Wall flip?

Trying to get a Wall deadline in my head

A couple days at minimum? Enough to think about the Wall results if we don't lose immediately. Getting the Wall right is critical.

[absinthe]

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)

What games have you played with scum-unwnd?

[absinthe]

You're helping, definitely.

How are you leaning right now regarding scum in the Wall?

[absinthe]

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)

What games have you played with scum-unwnd?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85197&user_select[]=32950

Scum partner here is FL and you can see how unwnd performs theatre, andhas some complaints, and posts a lot. Big word count.

After looking that game over I wouldn't feel comfortable towning them for anything in this game, they put their all into scum

Have you played with town-unwnd since that game?

[absinthe]

Luke, I'm still trying to figure unwnd out (and Dunn), so don't let me totally dissuade you of that read.

I'm going through the game Dunn linked today, and will probably look at a couple other games, too.

[absinthe]

viewtopic.php?f=160&t=85653
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=85703
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=83142

I was kinda hoping for some games where you were both town.

What was your alignment in the aborted TM game?

[absinthe]

Wtf does TWBTAW mean in mafiaspeak

[absinthe]

I guess. I wondered why duplicate TSTBS though.

[absinthe]

doesn't really fit though. TWTBAW. maybe it was just out of order.

Anyway. I'm reading through the Innocent Things game. I see some similarities and some differences. I needed some town games that you're using for comparison purposes to calibrate.

[absinthe]

Pushing unwnd feels like you're burning bridges (and then they end up being scum half the time anyway)

What games have you played with scum-unwnd?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85197&user_select[]=32950

Scum partner here is FL and you can see how unwnd performs theatre, andhas some complaints, and posts a lot. Big word count.

After looking that game over I wouldn't feel comfortable towning them for anything in this game, they put their all into scum

His posts in that game are a lot more focused than here. Here he's been so much on the back foot, really from the moment Anastasia went after him.

I've been worried about the lack of focus in this game, and that his posts aren't easy to understand and follow. In the game above, his stances were pretty damn clear throughout.

I've actually been comparing the incomprehensibility to his replacement scum game that Luke and I were in.

I have more reading to do.

[absinthe]

I've been worried about the lack of focus in this game, and that his posts aren't easy to understand and follow.

Do you really think that this game?

Well, maybe lack of focus is a bad way to describe it. I said something about being on the back foot, too, which just puts you in a reactive mode. And, yeah I've had trouble processing your posts. And that could be on me.

[absinthe]

Catboi is moving into the "if scum I'm gonna cry" zone.

[absinthe]

I don't think you've actually seen me in a XYLO as town but this is very close to my behavior

?

[absinthe]

Catboi is moving into the "if scum I'm gonna cry" zone.

what exactly is difficult for scum to fake in that post

70% of it is literally just recapping what happened
20% of it is saying stuff does or doesn't look like a partner interaction with zero explanation
10% of it is based on Ydrasse meta which is the only actual analysis there but that's so easy to fake

or is it just, you would feel bad voting against someone who's put in so much effort?

Who do you have as the scum at the Wall now?

[absinthe]

Caring less?

[absinthe]

I figured, but I don't understand why you're caring less?

[absinthe]

Because if the Wall is flipping before the Gate, then my opinion shouldn't be taken into consideration there, and as a result I could say whatever I wanted as scum so it won't help read me.

If town loses at the Wall then the game is over.

[absinthe]

I don't think you've actually seen me in a XYLO as town but this is very close to my behavior

?

I think that Dunn was pointing out a potential slip.

This game should exactly be his behavior in a XYLO as town, not close to it. To which unwnd responded

I say very close because I have thrown my own dignified behavior for exhaustive and continual presence

Call it impulsive lol

I don't think meta works that way.

[absinthe]

Sure, but there's nothing I can do about that.

Part of me wants to shrug and say...ok?

But I'm still trying to figure you and catboi out, so.

Mostly my reads are based on how people process the gamestate, take and change stances, react to new data, etc.

A lot of the usual data channels in this game are shut down due to the mechanics.

But, solving efforts in both minigames both help you show your alignment and potentially bring stuff to light that would otherwise be missed regarding the Wall players.

[absinthe]

I'm scumreading Dunn and S_S.

It's not a teamsolve. I guess I need to think on that.

[absinthe]

I'm confirmed town not confirmed town goddess.

We've got almost 6 days left.

I want to use at least 2 more of them working on the Wall solve.

[absinthe]

Plus, I have almost gotten the feeling that before Day 2 started, you assumed you had this minigame in the bag, because you expected me to tunnel on Dunn the whole day, and then you got frustrated that I did not do that.

Was this an impression you got from unwnd's day 2 posting? At what point did the frustration come to the fore in your opinion?

[absinthe]

sigh

[absinthe]

I'm sorry Luke. I really wanted a couple more days to go back through the thread one more time.

[absinthe]

Let's just say someone's about to cry, I guess?

Awesome. :/

[absinthe]

GG mafia!

This setup was really interesting to work on, but I feel like one game day of positioning into the three minigames and then one game day of minigames just didn't give me enough different kinds of data to chew on. And I think that's a me-problem.

Yeah, I respect that

You logically thought I was scum (I was), but you emotionally felt responsible and overthought it

That was my hope

I wanted out of the game, but did not want to go out voting the opposite of how absinthe read the wall

I don't know if giving me more time would have made a difference. And I remember back when mafiascum length game days just interminable to me, so I think I understand where you're coming from.

Sorry I was on the wrong track and stressing you out.

[absinthe]

The setup is really fascinating. I'm curious what the stats would be after running it a few times and if there's a more optimal approach to working out the groupings.

[absinthe]

To be fair, I think my scumteam is just really good and this wasn't going to be an easy game to win.

I agree. It's a really strong team.

[absinthe]

To be fair, I think my scumteam is just really good and this wasn't going to be an easy game to win.

It is incredible frustrating to think that I had the right answer to both the Keep and to the Wall, but then we still lost both due to a combination of me being unable to convince other people and other people making me doubt myself

Take pride in having the right solve!

[absinthe]

You fought your way out of the pressure I was applying to you brilliantly.

I think I deflected some of the pressure.

If I'd figured out who you are (assuming I'm right!) more quickly I don't think I would have gotten nearly so offended.

[absinthe]

You fought your way out of the pressure I was applying to you brilliantly.

I think I deflected some of the pressure.

If I'd figured out who you are (assuming I'm right!) more quickly I don't think I would have gotten nearly so offended.

Absinthe what is your guess?

If Anastasia doesn't want to reveal, I won't guess out loud.

I should give this account a proper funeral now that the game is over.

[absinthe]

You fought your way out of the pressure I was applying to you brilliantly.

I think I deflected some of the pressure.

If I'd figured out who you are (assuming I'm right!) more quickly I don't think I would have gotten nearly so offended.

I think you missed the point I was making originally that it was suspicious of unwnd to accept your explanation and that I was not actually suspicious of you <3

and you are of course correct.

It was worse than that. My reason for wanting to go to the Keep was that I thought I'd be able to find the town player and vote them, and my reason for wanting to go the the Gate was that I'd be able to be town enough there not to get voted by the IC. You thought I was angling for the Keep in order to be voted and I never slowed down to even address that.

[absinthe]

I wonder how the game would've went if you never slipped like that, absin

I do too. Or even if I'd slipped later after establishing my direction.

[absinthe]

I wonder how the game would've went if you never slipped like that, absin

I do too. Or even if I'd slipped later after establishing my direction.

I might not have put so much faith in your solve if you had not slipped to be honest

I think the game would have played out differently as an unknown quantity, and you and I finding each other as town might have been a lot more difficult. unwnd would probably have approached my slot differently, which might not have gotten Anastasia's attention in the same way. S_S might not have set off alarms by reaching out to me so early, too.

[absinthe]

Thanks Marashu, your modding was on point!

And I agree re the player list. Anytime I wind up in a game with no replacements, I'm impressed, but you are all a pleasure to play with. I'm so glad my alt's last game was a fun one! <3