Micro 1009: Would You Like To Be My Neighbor? [Game Over!]

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk who dat

I opened this thread planning to read TWO entire pages in one sitting (side note- wow. let's watch that pace everyone, it's been like half an hour, not four days lol)
Then I saw this post.
I'm going to be honest, it was hurtful. I was hurt. Emotionally. Let's break it down a bit.

- You're saying you don't know who I am. Presumably legit (or feigning ignorance to pretend you haven't been stalking me for years), but still hurtful
- You don't follow up with looking into who I am. Saying you don't know me hurt a bit, but implying you don't care enough to look is incredibly mean and hurtful
- Did I say it was hurtful already? Because it was
- Choosing to use 'who dat' instead of 'who's that' is a pretty casual tone. That makes the hurtful comment feel so much worse since it feels casually dismissive
- At least you're voting me so there's some indication you want to get to know me. Unfortunately that's awful hurtful so wow, this whole post was

messed up

I'm Hopkirk. You'd better remember that name, because if you don't I'll be really sad and you'll feel really guilty about being such a meanie

[Hopkirk]

also, I don't control Robert's vote

you kind of do. just convince him you're really good at the game then tell him to sheep you. alternatively, mock him until he unvotes in shame

Robert are you my scum partner?

can you quit openwolfing

I'm putting 0 faith in any Anda scum reads this early tbh

goodish posting vibeswise

[Hopkirk]

Flow trap can you soul read anyone? it would be pretty good if we could get some of those going FAST

[Hopkirk]

breaking down another post

L

decent start, but the capitalisation is a bit tryhardy and elitist so probably scum

e

from the l and the e i'm guessing this is going to be a question aimed at the famous user 'lendunistus'. kind of weird since they're not in the game, so flow probably didn't read the playerlist. like where it's heading though

t

eh, still possibly a lendunistus reference if flow doesn't know how to spell their name

m

i like the 'not a lendunistus' reference after the twist opening. no idea where this is heading now. you might want to change your name to Flow T Shyamalan

e

this is overly self focused which is pretty disappointing. remember this is a team game

a

going to be exciting to see if Flow T Shyamalan keeps up with the whole 'one vowel per word' gimmick they've got going, off to a good start

s

not a vowel, nice. although statistically 'scum' contains one more 's' than town so using that letter is fairly sus

k

nice non-vowel finish. probably scum trying to avoid letters he feels scummy
VOTE: Flow Trap

[Hopkirk]

no it isn't

[Hopkirk]

ou hould top uing the word

sus

it' very... you know

voting non talker people will only make good happening if many join and we fill them with fear, compared to voting talker people and interacting do result

[Hopkirk]

OH but what if many join

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[Hopkirk]

georgebailey is well know to be quick to fill with fear

[Hopkirk]

georgebailey notoriously shakes.

what's trash bugs'?

[Hopkirk]

yay, i feel so loved (except by bugspray who's calling me trash and Robert who's being hurtful)

pedit - soul reads are when you can read someone reeeeally well. like 90% or something. you're basically just reading their soul/you know them so well that you know their alignment. i've had a few of them in face to face mafia (read one person correctly about 15 games ina row) but none on here and i'm jealous of people that have some. they really make the game easier though, so it's great to hear you have a few

[Hopkirk]

were you trying to trick someone into accidently hammering him? you can be honest here, that wouldn't make you 100% scum, it might just mean you have some kind of grudge against him (although idk how anyone could have a grudge against The George Bailey)

[Hopkirk]

ok, we need to become frenemies really quick so we can clear each other. let's pretend we're 70s spies from rival yet begrudgingly cooperative agencies or something
i'm a secret doublevoter because i have dirt on Koba so that's actually 4 votes btw. thought it would be best to be transparent and honest here in case we have any accidents

[Hopkirk]

no no, I thought it was 2, I do not want him at E-1

why not? (serious question)

hop, I missed your vote, and I have no idea how lol I'm telling the truth though!! promise

i'll have think about it. i've been burned this way too many times...

I love Hopkirk already!

Same

Meh, Hopkirk has nothing on Hipkork. He’s the real deal.

i can't compete with that guy(memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=35672), he's so handsome

[Hopkirk]

ok, we need to become frenemies really quick so we can clear each other. let's pretend we're 70s spies from rival yet begrudgingly cooperative agencies or something

Ok, I'm a flat earther

i'm a spherical earther, but we both want to keep this earth spinning so we're going to have to put our differences aside and cooperate on this one damn it

[Hopkirk]

is your concern with e-1 a quickhammer?

[Hopkirk]

anyone on the playerlist you're concerned would quickhammer? obviously quickhammering someone who hasn't posted draws a lot of suspicion and is kind of a death-drawer for scum

[Hopkirk]

@loki- why?
is your concern with e-1 a quickhammer?

[Hopkirk]

tbh i'm kind of afraid bugspray would lolhammer now

[Hopkirk]

that feels like something someone would say before a quick/lolhammer

[Hopkirk]

(^bugspray uses they btw)

@bugspray - were you planning to lolhammer The GeorgeBailey?

[Hopkirk]

to scare him into posting! duh

Game started just over 4 hrs ago. I just found out about it, so no evidence of lurking unless you’re going to argue this is GB scum meta? Otherwise, I think it’s dumb.

Are you reading Andante's reasoning there as hyper-serious?

[Hopkirk]

oh yeah, nice. i'm glad to see you're standing against lolhammers bugspray.
it's now finnnnnnnne for us to put the horrifically suspicious The GeorgeBailey on E-1

[Hopkirk]

can you elaborate on why it's hard to tell Loki? i didn't get the same impression

[Hopkirk]

when you say read do you mean 'read and work out what they mean' or 'read as town/scum'?

[Hopkirk]

we fill them with fear

I like this idea!!

georgebailey is well know to be quick to fill with fear

he has 2 votes on him now... I'm sure he's shaking in fear right now

to scare him into posting! duh

i read this as Andante reacting naturally to my joke about filling with fear. don't think it reads as stilted/weird and i think the meaning comes through pretty clearly/consistently

[Hopkirk]

^ the question here being, what was the other interpretation of those posts that read as more serious to you? (in 95 it sounds like you're treating her as being a lot more serious than i read her as there so i'm wondering how you perceived it when you were asking)

[Hopkirk]

Some people are comedy-blind

I do sometimes have trouble grasping subtle humor but I’m definitely not comedy blind.

Oh well I am, I thought Anda was serious until then

until when?
maybe i'm the one who read it too far as non-serious

[Hopkirk]

... i've become the comedy-blind one. dang

[Hopkirk]

i'll let you know next time i spill my tea and need some help

[Hopkirk]

The main joke was that something really dry works very well at cleaning split liquids

other jokes i'm pretending were additional levels to it
- your name contains a rotating 't' - pretty easy to spill it if that was actual tea
- using the tongue out emoji is appropriate for cleaning split liquids

[Hopkirk]

what was the unintentional double meaning that i may not have spotted in my comment

[Hopkirk]

Questioning that initial tl on them now. Town generally doesn’t vote a slot immediately after they express a tl on them. Are you actually scum here Flow?

Shouldn't it be the other way around, that scum would not want to alienate people who like them, and town wouldn't care?

agreed with this. scum are more likely to accept a townread and push elsewhere rather than challenge it/have paranoia over people TRing them

[Hopkirk]

Questioning that initial tl on them now. Town generally doesn’t vote a slot immediately after they express a tl on them. Are you actually scum here Flow?

Shouldn't it be the other way around, that scum would not want to alienate people who like them, and town wouldn't care?

In my experience no.

Why should a townie be sus about a weak tl read on them?

But scum has been quick to push me for that. I could obviously be wrong but it’s a really bad take regardless.

am i missing something because i don't see where Flow T said this was why they voted you?

[Hopkirk]

@Loki- do you townread Vandercamp?

[Hopkirk]

@Loki- do you townread Vandercamp?

He could be scum? I don’t know. I think likely one between bugs and Scamp. Flow is just wrong but bugs is my best guess. I have seen nothing townie from them yet.

Scum lean on VOTE: loki

I’m town. And you’re bad at this.

i'm asking because this reaction reads as though you're assuming town Vander (bad at this would imply he's town) which felt different to your interaction with flow earlier

Regarding mechanical stuff, I feel like we should not claim neighbor chats until someone flips D1, and then the partner of that person immediately claims that.
Then either all claim D2 or do the same as D1 if the partner of the flipped person dies.

I don't feel extremely strongly about this and am open to other thoughts.

we avoid a d2 massclaim because of the friendly neighbour. optimal move changes based on what we hit d1.

[Hopkirk]

what was your issue with their page 1 vote on Andante?

[Hopkirk]

so specifically the page 1 vote, what was the issue with it? Given part of your issue was 'first, they jump on Andante' i'm unclear what was bad about the jump on

[Hopkirk]

@DkKoba: does the name of a neighbour's neighbour flip in their role pm or not? sorry if this is already covered somewhere

[Hopkirk]

given they've got less than 80 words and 6 posts i don't get the 'trying to direct the game'. can you lay that out more

[Hopkirk]

given they've got less than 80 words and 6 posts i don't get the 'trying to direct the game'. can you lay that out more

They’ve made three pushes that seem oddly aggressive from what I know of town!bugs and they naked voted me after trying to run up a non-poster and then the aggressive rsv sr.

Am I confident on this? No but their naked voting me doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence. I just find it unlikely that all three slots who jumped on me are town. As Scamp was the third vote, that also has them in my suspicions.

What about bugspray's vote on you was "oddly aggressive?"

I said all three were and that the naked vote on me was suspicious. They just naked voted me and left. Does that scream town to you? Why are you even voting me? You claimed a scumlean but have yet to explain that. When do you plan to do that?

No, it doesn't scream town to me, I don't think bugspray has been towny.
But it doesn't scream mafia to me either and it's pretty weird that you are this confident about it.

I'm voting you because you are hyper fixated on people who are voting you and your confusion around what andante said didn't make a lot of sense to me.
Andante basically said he was voting someone to get them to talk, and I don't understand what about that is possibly confusing to you, I'm not sure how else you could possibly have interpreted it.

what element of this is scum indicative? Loki's a townlean for me because the tonal aggression makes it feel like he's being genuine/not holding anything back.

people are going to take me seriously with this new playstyle of mine lmao

i don't like the 'overly self aware' nature of this entrance. the gambit also isn't interesting or AI

i thought this was more scummy then the question. is just feels like scum tryna figure out neighbors but confused because i called u my scum buddy and vander got suprsied because they know that andante isnt scum wit them xD

No, I was under the impression you were new and being honest about andante's claim and what you thought of it.
I thought this was very scummy so was aiming to investigate it further.

you thought that a new person believing a scumclaim was scummy? if someone who's new to the game (not this case obviously) sounded like they misunderstood something like that and presented it seriously then it'd be a strong towntell/slip

[Hopkirk]

Anda, I think you're town

Why do you think this?

cause flow knows how to read me...

i think this kind of comment comes more from town?

I didn't sign up to mafia under the assumption that I would not get interrogated

If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'm just not going to reevaluate.

i have a problem with that bit in italics

[Hopkirk]

so, flow and loki are my strongest TRs at the moment, Grandpa.. chilling in the TL category right now, I know I'll hear more from grandpa, I'm not worried. and Hop? Hop is hop. they'd had good lines so TL

can you explain the strong read on Flow T and the TL on Grandpa? grandpa feels between null and weirdly tryhardy

Ugh I'm not sure I can explain why I think Loki Dokie is scum very well, but I'll try. I feel like his pushes are artificial. They're superficial, aggressive, but unfocused. A buckshot approach.

Vanderscamp is scum for the same reason.

do they read as non-genuine? i get an impression Loki is pushing stuff he believes in here which reads as relatively good

Ugh I'm not sure I can explain why I think Loki Dokie is scum very well, but I'll try. I feel like his pushes are artificial. They're superficial, aggressive, but unfocused. A buckshot approach.

Vanderscamp is scum for the same reason.

So you think it's Loki and Vander?

It's page 14, but yes.

that's a trap question but also a bad answer

Ugh I'm not sure I can explain why I think Loki Dokie is scum very well, but I'll try. I feel like his pushes are artificial. They're superficial, aggressive, but unfocused. A buckshot approach.

Vanderscamp is scum for the same reason.

Well, I'm not getting SvS vibes from Vand and Loki

how do you read them individually?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: vanders

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: vanders

[Hopkirk]

@mod is it possible for both scum neighbors to be in the same hood and then every other hood is pure town?

VOTE: bugspray

are you trying to fake a townslip, because this is REALLY clear in the setup

[Hopkirk]

also

@mod- i don't think this was answered

@DkKoba: does the name of a neighbour's neighbour flip in their role pm or not? sorry if this is already covered somewhere

(impacts whether we claim hood partner or not when close to dying. no incentive to do so if we get the info on flip)

[Hopkirk]

how do you read them individually?

I'm easily duped by aggro scum players, but I'm not seeing the "side effects" of aggro scum in Loki, so I think they're town

Virgo's playstyle is scummy, but they do have a natural progression going for them

so why did you say 'not SvS' if you townread one anyway? it feels like weird phrasing

[Hopkirk]

I should say the same way

they haven't posted since then right? anything else changed?

[Hopkirk]

did you reads on other people change too is what i'm asking

[Hopkirk]

@mod is it possible for both scum neighbors to be in the same hood and then every other hood is pure town?

Is this a fake townslip? Did you seriously not read the setup?

i am known for not reading setups

what did you think the setup was in detail, because you clearly have most of the knowledge of it

LOL WTF @bugs WHY DID U SAY U WANT TO CC FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR LMAO. WRONG CHAT???

This. It's a slip from Grandpa right?? or what?? like, bugs never said in here they were gonna cc friendly, sooo I wanna get to the bottom of this

i think i'm misunderstanding something. if scum!bugspray slipped by posting something meant for their scumchat in their hood instead then doesn't that make GrandpaMo town?

[Hopkirk]

I think both scum can be in bugs, mo, Vanders, Robert, GB. I think Andante is really obvious town. She really seems to believe what she’s been saying. Hopkirk is town by meta. Flow still looks good

So, the question is if both bugs/mo are actually telling the truth or not. Outside of that, Vanders still pings me the hardest.

is my meta really that obvious? oof.

So how does this work.

Say I think my partner is scum. What is the strategy here.

step 1 - vote them without making this comment beforehand
step 2 -invent time travel

[Hopkirk]

@mod is it possible for both scum neighbors to be in the same hood and then every other hood is pure town?

Is this a fake townslip? Did you seriously not read the setup?

i am known for not reading setups

i think my understanding of it was wrong so i'm waiting for someone to clarify it

[Hopkirk]

idk why that post got quoted. nobody else complains about posts they've quoted randomly getting added to another later post so is this just me?

[Hopkirk]

this is a hard game to solve ngl. i think we have more info by day 2 or something

lazy excuse to not want to solve d1. are you scum?

what? where have i said that? don't take my words out of context. saying a game is hard to solve =/= trying to solve.

i just said we will have more info by day 2. bad question

this argument feels awkward/artifical and weirdly drops off immediately
i don't like Mo's initial comment and agree it sounds weird but the follow up from both sides feels like it's going somewhere then there's no follow up from either of them and that reads weirdly

i wasnt trying to get gb to e1 at all, if he ended up on e1 i would have unvoted

i'm not pushing you, it seems like your mind has fabricated some circumstances that would be a coincidence if they are all true


pedit:
hi loki, yes
and you're town so if you're FN please get me into the hood so we can be masons <3

VOTE: bugspray
I think this slot is scummier than andante now.

Grandpa(?)'a comment about andante saying "he knows how to read me" being more likely to come from town also holds some weight with this decision.

I think bugspray has been quite scummy, mostly from the posts I have quoted.

I think andante showed a very genuine town passion where he thought he found a slip by grandpa and bugspray.

I think grandpa reacted pretty badly to andante's pressure, the whole thing felt like awkward damage control rather than the confidence I would have expected from him as town. I think grandpa started bussing bugspray for damage control.
I really did not like the arguments from grandpa about if he's mafia, he can't be scum with bugspray because he was voting him.
Clearly if he thinks that he should obviously never be mafia together from the way they have played, then if they are scum together it would be a pretty good strategy to start bussing and try to salvage the game.

Robert is not super town but last game he was pretty obviously scum and he is not that here.
I want to flip bugspray, if he flips scum, instantly flip grandpa tomorrow, and then if that doesn't win, go from there.

what's the trajectory of your Andette read been like?

[Hopkirk]

bugspray have we played together. i realllllly feel like i have meta on you but all i could find was a game where you modded that i was in and i thought you were a player

[Hopkirk]

i don't like vanders starting to ask 'why do you TR hop'/testing the waters on me

oh hey!! bugspray is E-1!!! I didn't intend to do that lol but yeah, I'm down with a bugs yeet, if bugs is FN someone may wanna speak up

Bugs and Vanders are claimed neighbors so that isn’t possible and whomever is fn should obviously not claim.

ill unvote for now, just in case someone is gonna hammer

UNVOTE: bugs

why are you concerned about a hammer here?

[Hopkirk]

@hopkirk:

I thought his response to my accusation against him was very poor and he became increasingly scummy the more time went on where he wasn't really responding to it.

His case on bugspray felt extremely genuine and now he's probably my top town.

i want to make sure you're talking about andante here because she's a she
can you point to the specific posts here

i don't like vanders starting to ask 'why do you TR hop'/testing the waters on me

oh hey!! bugspray is E-1!!! I didn't intend to do that lol but yeah, I'm down with a bugs yeet, if bugs is FN someone may wanna speak up

Bugs and Vanders are claimed neighbors so that isn’t possible and whomever is fn should obviously not claim.

ill unvote for now, just in case someone is gonna hammer

UNVOTE: bugs

I love it!

I think Loki's statement that everyone outside of the four people he mentioned doing a fantastic job of fooling him if they are scum, or whatever it was, is exceptionally poor.
George in particular, but you as well.

Why do you think this applies?

What do you think you've done this game that should put you above suspicion?

why are you concerned about a hammer here?

how are these questions relevant to my issue with your posts? i dislike that you seem to be testing the waters/poking at 'why do people TR hop' instead of giving any indication you're actually trying to sort me. stop trying to present it like i need to be 100% 'above suspicion' in order to have a problem with someone poking at a shitpush on me

asking someone 'tell me what the 100% meta reason you're above suspicion' is a fucking stupid question because if i can answer with a genuine answer that then i'm actively using a trust tell and should be getting modkilled

UNVOTE: bugs

[Hopkirk]

poking at a shitpush isn't good phrasing. more like trying to work out if you're to be able to push me. the intent feels underhand

Bugs how are you reading Vanders?

[Hopkirk]

bugspray

[Hopkirk]

every self hammer i can remember has been from town

[Hopkirk]

bugspray

You’ve played with them before?

i deleted a toxic post and replaced it with just saying their name instead

i feel like i have played with bugspray but i can't work out where. maybe it was a hydra? otherwise just played with you and GB

[Hopkirk]

bugspray have you ever fake self hammered before?

[Hopkirk]

did you just get online GrandpaMo or were you around when it looked like bug's self hammered?

[Hopkirk]

do you think it was
- faked by scum!bugs to look town
- scumbugs trying to leave the game
or something else?

pedit - why were you asking for a hammer if it's more town now

[Hopkirk]

@vanders - where she shifted to sounding genuine to you (i was getting that impression pretty early on)

if i provably can't be scum because of a meta tell that i'm aware of and refuse to change then i'd be modkilled. i can't point out why i'm 100% town, but there's also no reason i have to for what i'm saying to be valid

someone asked about reads
Lokie/Andante- townreads
Flow - lesser townread that i should revisit because i can't remember specific posts i can point to that explain it. kind of under the radar recently
Rob/GB - null
Mo - scumreading
Vanders/Bugs - i'm trying to sort this. before the hammer stuff i scumread both but couldn't both be scum. need to look more at

[Hopkirk]

do you think it was
- faked by scum!bugs to look town
- scumbugs trying to leave the game
or something else?

pedit - why were you asking for a hammer if it's more town now

I think all three options, "something else" being bugspray being town, are possible.
I think if bugspray was scum it was probably fake, I still just want to flip bugspray

i excluded 'bugspray is town' because i was asking someone who'd just said 'can we hammer bugs'/am considering whether it feels that way. Mo's post asking Loki to hammer anyway felt really weird to me especially with how their read developed immediately afterwards

[Hopkirk]

depends what you mean by in-game-relevance. meta could be things like in team mafia where my teammate hectic mentioned 'you're using 'tbh' about twice as much as normal. that could be a scumtell' and i cut way down on the tbhs in terror of being caught out.

a good tell on me is 'does it sound like he's been crying' immediately after i read my role pm. if it does then either i've had a really bad day or it's super sus

[Hopkirk]

i'm stopping myself from voting bugs out of spite atm

[Hopkirk]

OOOHHH WAIT. I wanna talk about the slip I saw earlier

oh yeah, this was a pretty good post/following chain of posts so i can follow the read Vanders

[Hopkirk]

OOOHHH WAIT. I wanna talk about the slip I saw earlier

oh yeah, this was a pretty good post/following chain of posts so i can follow the read Vanders

yea page 17-20** sorry

i mostly mean in terms of how she sounded visibly excited making them like 'what if i caught the scumteam on a slip!' energy. what are you sorry about?

[Hopkirk]

have we played together bugs?
have you done anything like this as town/scum in the past (self-hammering being like this)

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: bugspray
E-0

[Hopkirk]

GB is less lock town than he looked yesterday

can anyone towncase any of Vanders/GrandpaMo/Flow?

bugspray have we played together. i realllllly feel like i have meta on you but all i could find was a game where you modded that i was in and i thought you were a player

this feels like a weird quote... i catched this upon reading bugs/vanders logs.

?

[Hopkirk]

@Vanders/Mo/Robert - since you're in claimed hoods, what do you think the hoods are/why?

[Hopkirk]

And I think they are never ever together

why not?

[Hopkirk]

oh the comment getting the name wrong

[Hopkirk]

what's the case on flow? i need to reread them

[Hopkirk]

Loki/i think Robert are TRs which would leave one of (Vanders/Grandpamo) + one of (Flow+GB) so i should really look at associates here at some point

[Hopkirk]

what's your read on me? you've mentioned me once in 795 as far as i can see
what's your read on vanders?

[Hopkirk]

looking through some of vander's other games when i can. there's a discussion i noticed in an old scum QT discussing a dislike of bussing
has voted Grandpa(irrelevant)/Flow recently when viable wagons which is -partner likelihood for Vanders with either of them

[Hopkirk]

irrelevant should be removed there, that was from thinking Vanders/Grandpa were a hood for a second which i thought i went back and corrected

[Hopkirk]

Vanders was saying in an old scumchat he had that i was reading that he hates bussing (voting a scumpartner). he voted you earlier when that could have led to an exile. the pairing becomes less likely.

ignore the 'irrelevant' in the first post then ignore the second post.

[Hopkirk]

@Flow - why are you reading people the way you are? I can't see any progression of your reads on me or Robert

[Hopkirk]

flow feels like it's having fun early + i don't see a sense of reads progression are the only things that leapt out on a flow skim which are respectively a lot +town/+scum. feels really under the radar which is weird when it has most posts than me

[Hopkirk]

Hi all

I am giddy because I rolled town and I love being town.

I haven't read the game at all and would appreciate a friendly face showing me around.

hi old friendo

Any TL;DRs will be appreciated and will be met with loving arms.

someone gave you a TLDR which i didn't read so here's a TLDR of our relationship instead
a few years back you were SRing me for bad reasons when i was obvtown and didn't want to sheep me onto scum. you even said i was reaching and didn't listen when i explained that what i was saying contained no reaching and i'd become enlightened
there was another game somewhere but idr that one because it didn't have any quotes that made it into my sig

[Hopkirk]

flow feels like it's having fun early + i don't see a sense of reads progression are the only things that leapt out on a flow skim which are respectively a lot +town/+scum. feels really under the radar which is weird when it has most posts than me

can you look at other ppl for once?

this whole game u literally been drawing ur attention to what other ppl push for example me... u see many ppl are starting to scumread me day 1 then follow up of how i am scummy.

now you are here; seeing a lot of ppl scumreading flow and u come out and say howthey might be scum.

dont be influenced by others that much... just be hoenst wit ur self and dont be afraid to defend if u think they are town lol. it just seems u could be used as a pawn for scum or scum urself..

?
pretty sure i was the first person pushing Bugspray
when people i trust/who are good at playing town (Loki) say someone is sus then i think it's a good idea to consider it. that's why i'm rereading flow here. the stuff i liked early on still exists, but i now notice there's not really any content i feel strongly about either way after that
your phrasing here is weird like you're saying i'm hard SRing flow rather than skimming the iso, commenting on it, and asking why other people are SRing it

[Hopkirk]

andente i haven't played with so idk if they're good at playing town, but they're confirmed town and ignoring everyone else's reads when you don't have a strong one is a pretty egomaniac play

[Hopkirk]

well where else on the internet do you frequent? you feel kind of familiar

[Hopkirk]

flow exile helps sort vanders but not vice versa.
flow exile sorts HEM outright

what does town!flow equal?

[Hopkirk]

i don't follow how Flow's reads have evolved or what they currently are even based on what it's just said they are

[Hopkirk]

is not knowing hoods at this point more likely a genuine town slip or scum trying to fakeslip? i'm not sure how someone wouldn't know them at this point, even the one not claimed outright

[Hopkirk]

probably faking then

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Flow T

[Hopkirk]

It is e1

[Hopkirk]

You should always trust me. Only bad irl people ever throw any shade at me ever

[Hopkirk]

Yeah when it hits majority that's death

[Hopkirk]

Why would you head say no ever, is there something wrong with it?

[Hopkirk]

emily's real identity affects my read here

[Hopkirk]

since emily is not hectic that paranoia lessens

VOTE: Grandpamo

[Hopkirk]

i am very tired and a little drunk but i still think it is emily

[Hopkirk]

I don't feel the need to put the work in to convince either of you of something neither of you wants to believe.

It would be a waste of my time.

If you've decided to kill me, just do it.

so one of you is snowed and the other one is scum.

I won't bother to figure out which one because there's a good chance you both just vote me here.

If you want an actual discussion I'll be happy to entertain you both but as it stands I think town just loses this.

I have one small request however.

If you are town in the neighbor pair.

Let the mafia player vote first.

Here’s what I think. If I vote you, you will try to pocket Hopkirk and convince him I’m scum and the same to me, should he be the one to place the first vote.


I want reads on both me and Hopkirk. Go.

You're probably the townie here because you sound exactly like the way you sounded when you were stubbornly wrong at the end of Menagarie and he's probably scum because he only posted one sentence.

I don’t think he can fake being as genuine as he’s been. It’s extremely difficult to fake being townie for this long without slipping. I think I should have seen at least something off about him by now if he was actually pocketing me but you’re so far not differentiating between us because you don’t want to risk alienating either of us.

?

I already said I think you are the pocketed stubborn townie.

I don't buy this progression on 'i have no idea' to 'i've thought you were the town in the pair from the start'

-missing the quote here where she mentions her TR in you yesterday

Tell me why you think he’s scum here

Well there's 2 of you and one of you is scum.

You sound like a really stubbornly pocketed townie who really believes in what he's saying and can't possibly believe he is wrong.



He came in and posted a one liner about being drunk and then ghosted the thread.



So I don't see how that's a hard choice for me which one I believe is the townie?

(The last quote might have gotten messed up because phoneposting and trying to move quotes around failed)

You're aware what my timezone is, that I work, and that I'm typically going to sleep at or before 12. I also posted like half an hour before I went to sleep and you didn't react so don't act like you were sitting there waiting to interact with me. 'I think you're town because you're posting during the hours I'm aware hopkirk sleeps and he isn't' isn't genuine

[Hopkirk]

I've posted some stuff in the hood where Emily's main posts similar emotional stuff sounding genuine as scum (in the only time I've seen Emily!scum). Can redact those post game if you want Emily?

I think any kill Emily makes here has the same bad endgame for her. Killing me or Loki = in a final 3 with vanders who has just said they're 100% voting her + either me or Loki who both TR Vanders (with me going out of my way to look for meta to help sort Vanders then abandoning a SR on them I don't think she thinks I change my read there). Any lylo has to be a wifom play, which is what she's doing here, and this is the most wifom endgame if she wants someone to reconsider (Loki/Vanders/Emily is possibly winnable without wifom but I think always comes out in an Emily lethal)

I remain virtually lockdown on Loki.

VOTE: Emily

[Hopkirk]

might as well ask Emily to confirm if it's Pooky since you've mentioned it in the main thread

most of what i mentioned still applies. only stuff reliant on it being Pooky is the meta that the ATE stuff wasn't outside their scummeta

[Hopkirk]

can you say who you think or know it is in the QT?

[Hopkirk]

i am not allowed to explain why= pooky but i guess see if denied or not

[Hopkirk]

1- it's not a case, it's refuting that it's outside of that player's range. literally nothing i can say if idk who it is which is why secret alts can be dumb
2- i think i'd be the worst player to kill, otherwise i can see other as being a similar level of bad for Emily
3- can you rephrase?
4 - not sure what you mean. i've only gotten annoyed with Bug's play. don't think that's likely to come from scum me
5 - a lot of stuff felt a lot more obvious here. i think i have a lot more solving in team mafia than most towngames. my effort is going to be based on whether i think i need to effort and most of the votes seemed like no brainers
6 - i think i've been trying to figure things out and did, but was just wrong on some of them

[Hopkirk]

the only thing i'm posting in the hood is related to secret-alt-identity

[Hopkirk]

everything else i've posted in here too right?

[Hopkirk]

Emily always takes me into lylo because Emily is 'never' going to take me into lylo as scum with either you or vanders. You because you hard TR me/Vanders (slightly less) Vanders because the last thing they said is they'd be 100% on Emily today.

Wifom is literally their only option and it's clearly working to at least some extent right?

Sleeping now before Emily decides to justify being on me more because I'm not posting at 4am like she did yesterday

[Hopkirk]

sorry I said those mean things to you Loki.

I was frustrated and I shouldn't have taken things out on you.

If you need me to answer anything, I'm here for you.

I think Hopkirk played a fine scum game and I'm perfectly fine with losing to him here though I hope we don't.

You've been a better listener than I could've hoped for. I'm glad you've grown so much from the end of Menagerie <3

Oh yeah, insulting me is definitely the way to go here.

as I have already stated.

This is not meant as an insult.

This is my assessment of your personality.

We are all unique and beautiful flowers.

I don't judge people for who they are.

this progression only coming you said you were rethinking based on the ATE isn't consistent/is being done for emotional manipulation purposes. if the initial statement is genuine/not intended as an insult then why is Emily acting as though it was intended as an insult now that you were rethinking them based on the premise they wouldn't insult you?

@Emily - is Loki right about your identity or am i?

[Hopkirk]

idk why i'm even asking because Pooky has outright admitted elsewhere that he's Emily but are refusing to do it here because you think it would give you a tactical advantage

[Hopkirk]

Alright, I’m starting to have doubts but it’s mainly on who I think you are and if I’m right, I don’t know why I’m not dead but I want to see how Hopkirk reacts to all of this because if you are who I think you are, you aren’t capable of this kind of emotional range as scum.

[Hopkirk]

Did you miss your main/meta being crucial to Loki's doubts there. You can't genuinely not see why I'd want to go there if you read this.

Since Loki's read is being influenced by meta it's very relevant. I've made this clear and I think you addressed it too so don't pretend you don't know why I'm saying it when it's beyond obvious

[Hopkirk]

Pooky bussed morning tweet D2 in the only Pooky!scum game I've read.

[Hopkirk]

Yeah, if you're offering to do free meta analysis of anyone then why am I going to turn it down lol. If you aren't Pooky like he claims you are then it might help next time we play

[Hopkirk]

'So if you actually were honest about what happened in this game you would know that Pooky definitely does not bus as a strategy or a move unless there is mech that makes it impossible to avoid.'

i'd know Pooky NEVER busses because he defended a partner d1? that doesn't follow unless i've read a ton of pooky games

you also subbed in when half of us were committing to voting Flow so it's not really comparable in that Flow wasn't solvable and we voted Mo in a large part due to their interactions with the Flow wagon. if you hadn't hammered there's a good chance you'd have been voted yesterday after a Flow exile anyway. me/loki being committed to Flow there means it's always going through unless we change our minds.

i've tried pocketing Loki before and it didn't work. idk why anyone would think 'Hop is going to bet the game on it working this time when it didn't before'. i clearly voted Flow because i agreed with Loki's casing. if it was me + Flow then i'd have tried to talk Loki into voting Mo then killed Loki at night. (Flow+Hop+Vanders+Emily+George) would be easily winnable when multiple people in that group scumread other people in it that weren't either of me/flow. there's no incentive for me to make a suboptimal play here that guarantees getting to a 3p compared to just playing it out earlier. it's obvious i'm genuine here Loki, you can tell from the fact that you could see me being genuine the entire game

[Hopkirk]

Let's talk about your readslist:



Can you explain why Flow Trap is a townread here? It's the optimal place to put a scum partner and you have 3 scumreads and 2 nulls sitting below him.

you mean the one i said i'd revist there, talking about with Loki, and flipped to scum on? that's not an 'optimal' place for a scumpartner

i don't have 3 scumreads there in a 2 scumgame btw, i have 2 because 2 of the people in scum were in a hood and couldn't be scum together like i said

[Hopkirk]

'explain why you townread' when the post literally says 'i can't remember why i liked them and plan to look back at them' and subsequently DID and moved it down to scum??? stop trying to rewrite history

didn't have any partners in that zone in my most recent scumgame either btw. i had 2 in the scumpool and 1 as a top townread so doesn't feel like you're even trying to make that fit

[Hopkirk]

you mean the one i said i'd revist there, talking about with Loki, and flipped to scum on? that's not an 'optimal' place for a scumpartner

i don't have 3 scumreads there in a 2 scumgame btw, i have 2 because 2 of the people in scum were in a hood and couldn't be scum together like i said

if you scumread 2 people in a hood you're basically wanting to elim one, and when it flips town, elim the other.

Your readslist puts your partner above null while putting 5 townies in null/scumread.

Even a player randomly throwing darts at a board would be able to hit at least 1 scum in 5 guesses, the fact you didn't is pretty shady.

idk why you're trying to convince Loki with something that assumes you're town since if Loki holds the view that's required for this to make sense then they wouldn't need the logic because they'd have already decided

i reconsiders Vanders. i didn't push him post flip so this assessment of my motivation doesn't hold

'explain why you townread' when the post literally says 'i can't remember why i liked them and plan to look back at them' and subsequently DID and moved it down to scum??? stop trying to rewrite history

didn't have any partners in that zone in my most recent scumgame either btw. i had 2 in the scumpool and 1 as a top townread so doesn't feel like you're even trying to make that fit

so the read was made up and when you couldn't find any way to back it up you reversed on the read and bussed them.

i could have justified a vote on Mo over Flow fairly easily. i didn't because i was more convinced by scum!flow

i'd know Pooky NEVER busses because he defended a partner d1? that doesn't follow unless i've read a ton of pooky games

no I said you were being dishonest about what happened in the game.

You said Pooky bussed Morning Tweet but neglected to mention it was because of a mech-guilty result on her slot.

From just reading Day 1 in that game where Pooky doesn't bus Spring Breeze but chooses to defend her harder as she is inevitably going down, you would know he doesn't believe bussing makes sense as a viable scum strategy.

except i know that Loki has read that game closely so i'm not going to try and actively misrep it
you said pooky never busses
this is a scenario where scum subbing in to a definite wagon being pushed by multiple UTRs and you panic hammered

i clearly voted Flow because i agreed with Loki's casing.

you were dedicated to your loki pocket and you thought it would win you the game, that's why you let loki guide you to the flow elim and why loki is still alive at the endgame

if it was me + Flow then i'd have tried to talk Loki into voting Mo then killed Loki at night.

how would you be able to talk loki out of pushing on flow when flow has no townreadable content?

other people had bad content. i could have talked loki into Mo first if i was confident on it and i could clearly have scumcased Mo so this doesn't make any sense as a tactic

[Hopkirk]

loki is still alive at endgame because Vanders said repeatedly in their last posts they would 100% always vote you and you couldn't take that into lylo. it's not as complicated/wifomy as you're trying to present it. if i was scum i'd always kill Loki here

[Hopkirk]

Because I've seen Loki re-evaluate in every lylo and would be aware they would here
Vs Vanders who hard SR you and would have likely factored in Loki's hard TR of me

[Hopkirk]

If you hadn't hammered you would have been voted when Mo was. You panicked because you saw multiple obvtown, me and Loki, not planning to move and clearly recognised you had to do something to get TR

[Hopkirk]

That's something I can agree with

[Hopkirk]

'But if Royalty is any example, when doesn’t town!Hopkirk have strong opinions and reads? Why does he sheep me on Flow if he’s having doubts?'

you might be underestimating my opinion of your towngame considering i've seen you carry an endgame 4 or 5 times. remember what i said in royalty?
also i sheep townreads all the time. i was reconsidering at the time, trusted you, and sheeping seemed like a great idea

'Also Hopkirk. when I said that I hard tr Vanders because he wanted to steer clear of pushing GB, your reaction to that didn’t make sense. If GB was actually fn, then of course that would have been a towntell for Vanders but it seemed like you maybe forgot about that?'

can you remind me of when/where this was?

[Hopkirk]

can you quote it in the hood for me if i don't say i've found it first. i can't see anything search for 941

[Hopkirk]

it would have to be on p5-6 because that's when the first flip happened, it definitely isn't on p6 because we're both locktown on vanders for a while there
p5 i ask you how you got to town on him and that's my only mention i can see?

[Hopkirk]

don't feel any pressure to post, i'm sure we can get an extension if irl issues are interfering

i'm going to sleep very soon so will probably stop replying to stuff soon for the night btw

---

i'm pretty sure i hard TR Vanders in thread before you did and helped convince you right?

[Hopkirk]

seen the quotes in the hood

given you were saying in that post it could still be vanders i didn't read that as you locktowning him given there was more discussion and later in the hood you sus him more (then less again later)
scum vanders wouldn't have needed to push GB slot when you/me both wanted bugs. openly pushing a hard lurker launchbait slot isn't exactly townie behaviour and i factored this as null

i asked why you were TRing vanders because i basically ignored that point as it didn't feel AI? otherwise i'd have commented on it either way

i still can't see how it had anything to do with the FN thing? i don't think scum me would ever forget that, and it would be a weird thing to try and convince you of since you were more likely to vote Flow d1 if i convince you of GB town (albeit marginally so this point is meh)

that was before i did a meta dive on Vanders and came back with good reasons to meta TR him

[Hopkirk]

Vanders was saying in an old scumchat he had that i was reading that he hates bussing (voting a scumpartner). he voted you earlier when that could have led to an exile. the pairing becomes less likely.

ignore the 'irrelevant' in the first post then ignore the second post.

flow exile helps sort vanders but not vice versa.
flow exile sorts HEM outright

what does town!flow equal?

i was saying a bit before this i was trying to sort vanders + that i thought Bugspray or Vanders was scum but then i went back to look through some vanders meta and that influenced me not voting him when scum me would have really wanted to push vanders

[Hopkirk]

looking through some of vander's other games when i can. there's a discussion i noticed in an old scum QT discussing a dislike of bussing
has voted Grandpa(irrelevant)/Flow recently when viable wagons which is -partner likelihood for Vanders with either of them

Vanders was saying in an old scumchat he had that i was reading that he hates bussing (voting a scumpartner). he voted you earlier when that could have led to an exile. the pairing becomes less likely.

ignore the 'irrelevant' in the first post then ignore the second post.

ok ok thank u lol.

i see...

i think ur more townier then for this.

and yea i agree wit u WHAT is the scumcase on flow because honestly ...idek where the flow read came up. ..everyone just started sheeping andante and thought it was me and flow here out of no where.

i didn't phrase it as strongly as i thought, but it helped move someone who was sus away from Vanders when he wasn't widely TR then you use it as part of your justification for the TR later that i'll quote

[Hopkirk]

how much experience u have @emily

I'm not the most experienced - my friend recommended this website to me and said replacing in would be a quick way to get started.

Is there a good summary of what's happened so far?

I’m town, Hopkirk is like almost certainly town. I think you are and tl leaning Vanders as well. I think Flow is extremely likely to be scum.

I think based off of what Hopkirk said about Vanders hating bussing, I think he’s very likely town if Flow flips scum.

HEM would be townlock if Flow flips scum. I think Flow is scum because he basically said that HEM + Anyone else except for him could be scum. The lack of even a single confident tr is extremely scum indicative.

wait nvm thats not a weird kill.

i just understood why they made that kill.

so if im partners with emily.

and there is one scum alive.

and bugs flipped town...

and vanders is either mafia or town

i think since we have one kill to go until cylo then

we probably need to eliminate someone from a hood who hasn't been killed yet

I think it’s you because you were the only one hard trying to save Flow, plus bugs, Andante and Robert all considered you scum.

Emily doesn’t hammer her buddy just as there was beginning to be some doubt and Flow had a chance to turn things around.

I’m town, Hopkirk is town. Based on what Hopkirk said about Vanders’ non-bussing meta - not to mention the obvious fact that bussing is pretty much anti wincon, everything points to you.

VOTE: GarandmaMo

you had him as a townlean then upgraded to a TR, here's where you immediately agreed with my logic

if i was planning to bus Flow then i wouldn't have been trying to clear people on a flow!scum flip because that would make the situation twice as hard for me.

[Hopkirk]

going to sleep now because i am being shaded by someone in a discord chat by someone who is explaining how important sleep is (they aren't sleeping though so hmmm)

[Hopkirk]

imagine subbing into this game, seeing you + me happy for an exile + us being UTRs
going against that does nothing then gets Emily eliminated the next day. pooky 'not bussing' only means something if there were similar situations, and a secret alt is FAR more likely to break with meta than a main when there's a significant advantage (not getting insta yeeted the next day) for doing so because nobody would know pooky broke that meta
apparently a bit of wifom is enough to counteract me this being exactly like all of my towngames. i don't understand your view whatsoever here

[Hopkirk]

how does this play out for Emily if she doesn't bus? do you see any scenario where town me + you don't get an exile of Flow there? other than convincing us both to move to Mo then what's the alternative for Emily that isn't essentially claiming scum?

[Hopkirk]

i wouldn't bus there because it doesn't benefits me. what's better for scum!hop

-leveraging influence over you/others there to save my partner then kill you (a UTR) who's the only person who'd hard drive the wagon
-aiming to get to an endgame where dumb wifom stuff is going to apparently be enough to counteract legitimate reasons to hard TR me

like saving Flow there is a win condition for scum!me, wouldn't make me look bad, and i didn't even try to do it
- Mo would have voted elsewhere
- Me voting elsewhere
- Flow voting elsewhere
- Are you saying that there's 0% chance either you or Vanders or Emily would hammer Mo if Flow got stuck on two votes? i have no reason to bus there and every reason not to

[Hopkirk]

Emily has done literally nothing today except ATE at you and it's worked?

[Hopkirk]

i feel like you're just looking at 'pooky doesn't usually bus' and avoiding the context

- what is Emily's path (as a player nobody hard TR) to actually avoiding the Flow wagon on that day when you and me are TR by everyone and pushing for it?

[Hopkirk]

flow didn't start looking townier. we were calling for hammers.
pooky having a not bussing meta doesn't mean that Pooky would never bus, it means they'd need a good reason to bus and this was a VERY good reason (and on a secret alt, so doesn't ruin pooky's own record which i assume they're telling the truth about so haven't verified)

[Hopkirk]

like what is Emily's other choice there that doesn't get Flow eliminated anyway AND Emily dead the next day?
because the hammer literally got her to lylo where, as far as i can tell, the hammer is the only reason you're switching?

[Hopkirk]

'Look at the timing of Emily’s hammer. Does that make any sense irrespective of Pooky meta?'

YES
how does pooky save flow there ever?

[Hopkirk]

I think what monkey had to say when catching up is much townier than what Emily had to say, not because it is super town, but just because it is actually taking real stances on the game.
I do think you are likely town and I think Loki is town as well.

I would kill flow, then Emily, then have no idea. The meta argument from Loki holds some weight but I just don't really trust his reads enough to lose the game on someone I don't think has seemed towny, even if he is. Because, maybe I'm forgetting, but the crux of his argument has basically been "I have played with hopkirk and I can tell what his town game looks like" without any real specifics.

ok just read flow's iso.

this is town.

i hard townread flow. lol

i think this is just mafia lim bait

Why?

nobody was changing their minds on Flow there?
Emily hammered WHILE HEM WAS CATCHING UP and WHILE THE THREE TOWNIEST PLAYERS IN THE GAME HAD FLOW ON L1
subbing into that position is NOT SALVAGABLE, it doesn't matter that pooky dislikes bussing, they do not have a choice if they don't want to immediately follow Flow

[Hopkirk]

Emily, you're not a child. You've volunteered entry into a game where being suspicious is a key element, and making decisions requires thoughtful consideration. I'm not mad. I just don't underestimate you. I think you're using being new as a cover to advance a scum wincon. You've already demonstrated that you understand the implications of eliminating someone without everyone else catching up. It's not even deadline.

[Hopkirk]

FFS you already hammered him


Grandpa is town, I feel like he is pretty obviously town



Kill Emily if I die

It's true that what grandpa is saying is nonsense

However I believe his nonsense is VERY clearly more genuine than anything Emily has said this game.
I'm more confident in grandpa town than Emily scum but unfortunately we now only get one more kill and I don't think I can not kill emily

emily's real identity affects my read here

VOTE: emily
I don't think I care

It's extremely clear that her newness is just an act, and I therefore hate the lack of anything useful she contributed the entire time she was present.

[Hopkirk]

Player List:
Andante - Town
GeorgeBailey
Robert M Hunter
Vanderscamp
flow trap - Town
bugspray
GrandpaMo - Town
Hopkirk - Town
Loki Dokie - Town


is this game really this easy? like... I have 4 TRs/TLs right now

[Hopkirk]

please just listen to all of the dead town telling you it was Emily (and TRing me) before they died- Vanders, Andante

[Hopkirk]

i feel like you're just looking at 'pooky doesn't usually bus' and avoiding the context

- what is Emily's path (as a player nobody hard TR) to actually avoiding the Flow wagon on that day when you and me are TR by everyone and pushing for it?

Where did she avoid it?

Yes because meta is pretty powerful stuff because you’re arguing that this is the game he chose to break that meta and that’s an extremely hard sell, especially because it really didn’t even look like a bus and I thought that before I even had any idea she was Pooky.

Last time I saw scum hammer their buddy, they were already dead in the water when it happened but Flow definitely wasn’t. Flow might have conceivably turned things around with monkey’s horrible reads and Vanders having doubts.

Emily was my hero for that hammer because he had a chance to get away. That’s why I didn’t view it as a bus.

EXACTLY MY POINT
she didn't avoid it because she couldn't avoid it wtaiogethowi
3 other players thought it looked like a weird hammer/possible bus (me, Vanders, HEM) so you're giving too much stock to it

How was Flow not dead in the water. please please actually answer this because this is literally 100% of what i'm saying right now. Flow was clearly dead there with you/me/vanders on them and making it CLEAR we weren't switching

like, do you think Pooky ever thinks he can convince you to switch there? because he 100% has to make you switch off Flow there in order to save Flow.
alternatively, busses for towncred, like he did

[Hopkirk]

like what is Emily's other choice there that doesn't get Flow eliminated anyway AND Emily dead the next day?
because the hammer literally got her to lylo where, as far as i can tell, the hammer is the only reason you're switching?

Why does scum!Emily hammer her buddy when she had to know it would look really bad? That’s why I say had Flow been town, I’d likely view it very differently.

Look, you don’t know how badly I’d love to yeet scum!Pooky after he bamboozled me in two games but I don’t think this is that game.

It read to me like Emily wanted to make damn certain Flow got hammered which isn’t at all inline with Pooky’s scum meta.

she didn't 'know' it would look really bad because people don't know how things are going to look until they post them
me/vanders/HEM all pointed out it looked forced

obviously if Flow had been town it would be different because it

wouldn't be a bus

but that's irrelevant to the point i don't understand why you mentioned it

[Hopkirk]

1.) what happens to Emily if she doesn't bus there OR divert the wagon: she dies the next day
2.) can Emily divert the wagon?: no

do you disagree with either of these points? because this is what i'm saying

[Hopkirk]

Yes Vanders sr Emily, he also voted bugs but he isn’t here rn, so we have no way of knowing if his read would change.

if only he scumread Emily multiple times prior to being nightkilled last night, said he 100% would always vote her, and was voting her prior to dying
HE DID. we clearly know how Vanders would vote if he was here

Emily hard played the fake newbie card and got caught out on it

[Hopkirk]

how is a history of not bussing remotely relevant? you are completely ignoring the context

[Hopkirk]

1.) what happens to Emily if she doesn't bus there OR divert the wagon: she dies the next day
2.) can Emily divert the wagon?: no

do you disagree with either of these points? because this is what i'm saying

please respond to this or i'm not posting in the thread again

[Hopkirk]

You/me/vanders remain on the Flow wagon
what does scum!Emily do to get someone else exiled?

can you please explain how 'flow had a decent chance of turning things around' because i don't see how they remotely did when you/me/vanders wanted them gone. i don't see how emily saves him there and clearly she didn't either. that's why she voted

pedit - have you actually looked through the pooky scumgames? i've started and so far i haven't found one where there's been a major wagon on one of his partners

[Hopkirk]

how is a history of not bussing remotely relevant? you are completely ignoring the context

You said that about Vanders, so obviously you believe in an anti-bussing meta.

Vanders was actively pushing the wagon with you and me and the wagon could have died without him being there. it's very different to a hurried hammer (presented at the time remember as being from a newbie slot)

[Hopkirk]

1.) what happens to Emily if she doesn't bus there OR divert the wagon: she dies the next day
2.) can Emily divert the wagon?: no

do you disagree with either of these points? because this is what i'm saying

please respond to this or i'm not posting in the thread again

The only way Emily dies next is if either Flow flipped town or if she tried to stop the wagon.

That’s part of the reason we limmed Mo because he was the only living slot who wasn’t on it and hard defended him

.

assume a world where Emily pushes against Flow unsuccessfully and flow gets exiled. we ALWAYS exile Emily (and Mo) after that rather there being some doubt now

you're arguing at the same time right now that
1- Emily, as scum, would have pushed for a different wagon (as this is the only option other than bussing)
2- We would always eliminate people who argued for a different wagon there (bolded)

[Hopkirk]

like can you find a game where Pooky was in a comparable position where his scumpartner was hard SR?
Kanna doesn't count because Pooky is never going to vote Kanna there regardless of alignment unless he's town and hard SRs her because of the soul-bond
i haven't found a game yet where he'd have needed to bus a heavily wagoned partner

[Hopkirk]

i've gone back a year and can't find a comparable scenario where there's a pooky scumpartner being exiled for this to apply to
except Kanna which is an exception, but even taking that into account like... it's a ridiculously small pool of data (1 game)
where else has pooky even had partners exiled

you’re not addressing my points

please lay out a list because i have addressed every single thing you've said and don't feel like you're reading half of my posts

you’re not explaining why it’s this game, Pooky suddenly inexplicably busses here

are you actually serious? this is all i'm saying. like you've... acknowledged this is what i'm saying

Vanders didn't have doubts. all of his posts prior to that were saying he vastly prefered Flow to other options

[Hopkirk]

Loki/i think Robert are TRs which would leave one of (Vanders/Grandpamo) + one of (Flow+GB) so i should really look at associates here at some point

Why is Robert townier than me?

What happened to this Hopkirk?

we reached a 3p lylo where i managed to correctly read that Emily was the final scum then looks like i was forced into a loss anyway because you're hard convinced on a completely ridiculous point

[Hopkirk]

there's no remotely comparable scenarios here
you're treating pooky's statemet of 'not bussing' as 100% true when it's actively not supported by facts
he hasn't bussed yes, but he also hasn't had partners exiled (unless i missed 1 or 2) except for Kanna
he also vastly overstated the amount of scumgames and made it sound like a lot harder of a policy than it was

if you want to actually look if the claims hold up go ahead. if you want to bet the game on it being true without verifying it then what can i even say? you've clearly already made your mind up based on misrepresented facts

it's like lying with statistics. not bussing was technically true, but there's next to no scenarios where pooky's partners have been voted out (and you can't bus out a partner if they don't get exiled by definition). also they incredibly overstated the depth of the meta

Emily has done nothing this phase except ATE + bring up the bussing thing. you know that's not how town!pooky would play this endgame

[Hopkirk]

i've gone back a year and can't find a comparable scenario where there's a pooky scumpartner being exiled for this to apply to
except Kanna which is an exception, but even taking that into account like... it's a ridiculously small pool of data (1 game)
where else has pooky even had partners exiled

you’re not addressing my points

please lay out a list because i have addressed every single thing you've said and don't feel like you're reading half of my posts

you’re not explaining why it’s this game, Pooky suddenly inexplicably busses here

are you actually serious? this is all i'm saying. like you've... acknowledged this is what i'm saying

Vanders didn't have doubts. all of his posts prior to that were saying he vastly prefered Flow to other options

There was zero suspicion on Emily - none - pre-hammer yet you’re telling me she was the next flip if she didn’t hammer?

NO I AM SAYING THAT IF EMILY DID THE SAME THING WE VOTED MO OUT FOR THEN THAT WOULD ALSO BE A REASON TO VOTE OUT EMILY

EMILY EITHER BUSSES OR PUSHES SOMEONE ELSE
IF EMILY PUSHES SOMEONE ELSE THAT'S WHEN SHE BECOMES THE NEXT FLIP (technically her/Mo become the next two flips, but that's the exact same thing)

[Hopkirk]

If the hammer had been from anyone except Emily then you would have already voted Emily. Either today or yesterday. This is clearly true since 90% of what you're saying for town!emily is because of the hammer
leaving aside the hammer there's basically nothing

[Hopkirk]

if we're talking meta then scum!hop doesn't spend an hour and a half going through all of this trying to convince you after you've made up your mind. you know i hate scum because i don't enjoy it and every second of playing a scumgame feels like i'm pointlessly wasting my time on something i'm not enjoying. scum!hop just stops posting because he doesn't care enough to put this effort in. alternatively, town!hop always tries to convince you

[Hopkirk]

like i'm pretty confident that this interaction over the last hour and a half alone is significantly longer than i've ever sat down for a single session of posting as scum

[Hopkirk]

which VS game?

[Hopkirk]

None of Robert's iso read as super scummy to me, that's why i had them as a townlean.
none of it hard pinged me as town either. i don't see why anything you posted there reads as super townie?
this was a POE decision, not something obvious that Robert did that made the slot scum

[Hopkirk]

Robert said they TR bugs several times but did nothing to argue against the wagon is a negative point
they don't interact with or mention Flow whatsoever (pretty common for new scum to just ignore partners)
Robert says he has a SR but doesn't try and push anyone or vote even while a TR is being voted off (allegedly a stronger TR?)
the vote on Mo feels omgusey in retrospect

^ reading through the Robert iso with the knowledge it's scum that's what sticks out as sus

[Hopkirk]

(Also if you're ignoring the bus pls factor in that i've been playing the same as all the other town games you've seen, not like any of the scumgames you've seen, and that i'm outside of my scumrange too...)

pedit - my recent scumgames are the vs game where you saw i did post for like 100+ pages because i couldn't effort, WSB where i basically didn't play whatsoever, and team mafia where despite it being team mafia and me being the last scum alive, i posted less than i am here

[Hopkirk]

i've made all of my arguments. i've responded to everything in 1500 multiple times before. if none of them swayed you then can you just hammer me now, because otherwise i'll probably waste another few hours tomorrow on this just saying pretty much the same things i've been saying tonight, but just getting more and more frustrated that i don't feel you're engaging with it with any intent to actually take it seriously

the hammer makes tons of sense for scum!Emily because it probably just won her the game. i've explained at least five times, some of them in all caps, why it makes sense and you don't seem to be acknowledging the argument i'm making

Emily doesn't read as emotionally genuine here. it read as a half hearted ATE at the start of the day that they doubled down on when they saw you biting.

[Hopkirk]

so one of you is snowed and the other one is scum.

I won't bother to figure out which one because there's a good chance you both just vote me here.

If you want an actual discussion I'll be happy to entertain you both but as it stands I think town just loses this.

It's probably better for me if you two do quick-elim me because I wouldn't have to agonize over which one of you is actually scum here.

I have a limited amount of time each day and I'm not going to waste time on something that's impossible to do.

I want to hear your case first Emily but I really think everything points to you. I still want to hear your case but barring anything unforeseen happening, I think Vanders’ kill points to you because you knew he was 100% voting you if he lived.

that makes so much sense Loki.

I the lone scum surviving decide to leave alive a neighborhood of two who hard-townread each other to the point of calling themselves a masonry.

because that's totally the way to win the game.

just leave the 2 masons alive to the end.

If you're town and you want to throw by voting for me

you can go ahead and do it.

Don't blame me post game for your own self being pocketed

all of this is literally just a complete appeal to pity

[Hopkirk]

'oh we've lost already, try not to feel bad about being wrong'
'please don't make me agonize'
'this is impossible, you've both decided already'
the moment you bite
'oh thank you so much Loki' (immediately flips from could be either of us to actually it's Hop from the moment you show signs of believing the ATE)
'voting me is throwing'

literally every post at the start of the pay was appeal to pity. there was like 10+ of those. don't say that's a scumtell if you're townreading it?

[Hopkirk]

I promise I won't hold it against you if you choose wrong here.

We can even pretend this game never happened

I honestly didn't want to bring my main's meta into this game but some people are very insistent *shrug*

even the latest posts. this is like the 3rd/4th time where they say 'it's ok if you're wrong and vote me, i don't mind'
that's blatant 'feel sorry for me' posting

[Hopkirk]

why wouldn’t you put in the effort to try and convince me here when your fate is literally in my hands?

because i like playing town and care about the result as town and hate playing scum/don't care about the result as scum because mafiascum game design/culture makes scum really shitty/unemployable environment to play scum in

[Hopkirk]

maybe i should just start saying things like

'oh don't feel bad about being wrong because i don't blame you' and 'voting me is throwing' because apparently that would work

[Hopkirk]

'It's probably better for me if you two do quick-elim me because I wouldn't have to agonize over which one of you is actually scum here.'

this is incredibly blatant self pity for one

[Hopkirk]

as far as i can see your reasons for townreading Pooky/Emily are 90% the hammer.
it did exactly what it was designed to do
i've explained the motive many times and you've accepted it makes sense more than once in other parts of your argument
i've explained why they would bus here
what else can i do if you won't accept this? emily hammered and they won because of it.

[Hopkirk]

can you hammer me now if you've decided?

[Hopkirk]

it feels like you've spent the last two hours telling me i'm scum while not believing it

[Hopkirk]

I am arguing why your conclusions are wrong. Like I'm clearly arguing that. I'm explaining my takes.
What takes am i dismissing here. Other than 'Pooky would never do x' by providing reasons why he would, mitigating reasons why he wouldn't, and addressing them.
'I guess you guys are just going to mislethal me but don't feel bad about it is objectively trying to make you feel sorry about him.' i don't understand how you can think otherwise? can you explain this if you think this is a point i'm 'dismissing' because this feels wrong based on the literal meaning of the words

[Hopkirk]

Loki do you understand that I know for a fact Emily is scum here? That was a rhetorical question.

It read to me as if he didn’t have a clue which one of us was scum. You reading this as self pity just seems really wrong to me.

This isn't in good faith. If you think I'm dismissing it by proposing an alternative reading then you're going to take anything i say except 'I am scum' as dismissing it.

If town Pooky
- Genuine confusion

If scum Pooky
- Fake ATE
or
- Trying to fake genuine confusion

I've said that i think it's the second one because he'd said beforehand that he thought you were a lot more town and his confusion disappeared the moment you started to show doubt. i explained this. i quoted it. i can't make you read it.
I've also said i think it's the first one because they aren't mutually exclusive

does it seem wrong to you because you think it's coming from town? Then

literally anything i say will sound wrong because i'm saying it's coming from scum

[Hopkirk]

contrary to any available evidenc

[Hopkirk]

it feels like you're trolling me there

[Hopkirk]

for i think the sixth time

- if Emily did not hammer she would have had to push someone else
- we have established and agreed multiple times that Mo was suspicious for pushing other people over Emily
- from this, if Emily did not hammer and hence pushed other people, that reason for sussing Flow would have also applied to Emily

[Hopkirk]

like you've clearly decided not to bother reading what i'm saying so why am i wasting my time

[Hopkirk]

i've answered that question at least four times tonight. i'm done with this

[Hopkirk]

i actually feel like self hammering right now

[Hopkirk]

i don't think i intend to post in the game any more because you're repeatedly telling me i'm 'dismissing' your arguments or 'reading it wrong' or showing that you clearly aren't accepting basic logical flows like in 1522

[Hopkirk]

you're asking me questions about things that i've explained at least three-five times already. if you didn't like it before but didn't explain why you didn't understand/agree with it then i'm wasting my time here

[Hopkirk]

Let's do it piece by piece.

Do you accept that if Pooky tried and failed to redirect the wagon then he would have looked bad for the same reason that Mo did?

[Hopkirk]

question 2 of 3

You have argued - contrary to any available evidence - that Emily was next if she didn’t,

given you accept that trying and failing to redirect the wagon would have made Emily more suspicious, would Emily have been at risk of being the next exile (or the exile after that)

[Hopkirk]

Question 3 assumes you say yes because we voted Mo in a big part for that.

Question 3 is do you disagree that this is evidence that Emily was very likely to be next (or the one after that)
'You have argued - contrary to any available evidence - that Emily was next if she didn’t'

[Hopkirk]

for i think the sixth time

- if Emily did not hammer she would have had to push someone else
- we have established and agreed multiple times that Mo was suspicious for pushing other people over Emily
- from this, if Emily did not hammer and hence pushed other people, that reason for sussing Flow would have also applied to Emily

Why did she have to hammer at the specific time that she did? It was nowhere even close to deadline?

because Flow was at L-1 and she needed to take a stance
if she chooses not to hammer then either

1- she has to push something else and if it fails she loses
2- someone else hammers and she loses (HEM/Mo could also hammer there)
3- she has to hope the wagon falls apart which i think it was clear it wouldn't (this option assumes that you decide to vote someone other than Flow there, despite me and Vanders being in agreement)

the hammer made her look townier than any of those options because you are townleaning her based on it. that's why she chose to hammer. because she had a motivation which has actively paid off.
+ because she didn't think option 1 would work (this would be the only reasonable alternative)

[Hopkirk]

i'm going to be leaving now because i've stayed up an hour and a half later than i intended to and it's half one in the morning and i have plans tomorrow

[Hopkirk]

'I think if he was in my position, he’d agree with my points'

If you refuse to accept any reasoning is valid accept yours then why are you dragging this out. Everything I say is going to be irrelevant since you're taking the stance that 'Hopkirk disagreeing with my stances is bad' when your main stance is 'Hopkirk is bad.'

[Hopkirk]

Atm it feels like you're trying to justify why you're voting me in he situation where you're wrong, buy are confident you're right. I don't care about the outcome, so if that's the case (you're say 80% confident) then I'd much prefer you hammer now

I don't see what you're TRing from Emily. It all seems to be ATE with the absence of literally anything else. I don't think you ever addressed the stuff I disliked about Robert. Self hammers very much annoy me. I've been active in elo for fairly obvious reasons. I sheeped a lot in hectic Vs FL, and any games I've played with hectic

[Hopkirk]

If you're saying Emily isn't being self pittying here then self pittying is a bad/misleading way of phrasing it and you need to think of a better one. If you've got a different definition then let me know

[Hopkirk]

Scum Pooky saving a buddy doesn't lead to scum Pooky being able to and choosing to do the same in ever scenario. I don't understand why you're acting like Emily could always save FL there because I don't think she could.

[Hopkirk]

Flow not FL*

[Hopkirk]

Loki there's literally no way to dispute the premise that 'Pooky will never bus as scum'.

I've explained the incentives to do so
I've shown why the meta is overstated
I've explained why this game is likely to be an exception (secret alt)

What are your 'stances.' like seriously, if your 'stance' is that Pooky wouldn't bus as scum then you can't expect me to agree with that

[Hopkirk]

What logic am I 'dismissing' that doesn't also include 'Hop is scum'. I am disagreeing with your conclusions and the reasons for them and to keep saying it in vague terms. Lay out a list of things I'm dismissing if you want direct responses to a list

[Hopkirk]

I've explained why Emily's hammer is an an attempt to get TR and not a genuine one so many times

- because scum!Emily looks a lot worse by not bussing to the extent she's going to be exiled
- it was rushed in a way that came off as weird. me/hem/Vanders all agree with this

[Hopkirk]

All 3 town nightkills wanted Robert and/or Emily dead right before dying so it's not just me having an issue with their play here