Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[LlamaFluff]

Rolled VT for real this time. Probably no chance to read anything for about next 12 hours.

[LlamaFluff]

That was a painful read. I did come away from it liking Ana/RM (mostly just due to their topic summary) as town a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh yeah I guess we can start up this topic. I also wanted us to start with solving the lovers first last game and it still stands even if I ain't one. Or do the lovers this game wanna kill the VT claims first? I ask because we can't really stop the 6 votes, I'm just announcing my preference beforehand.

Doesnt matter. Only reason I had any preference (and it was barely anything) last game was one of the other two lover pairs was highly town read and I felt my survivability was high. Just target most likely to be scum. We have to hit them in both groups either way.

[LlamaFluff]

i'm fine with solving lovers first anyways, though, a part of me wants to solve vts first, because i know llama is good at deepwolfing

Still have no idea where this is coming from... this is the third game I have been since I quit playing about three or four years back. I just tend to be able to be calm and logical which people like.

It actually does tie into why I think the Ana/RM pair is town though. If Ana who was scum with me last game is making a large part of their pregame talk being worried about me seems to come from a point of being town who will be unable to read me. That feels more natural than scum suddenly not seeing me on the team anymore as they have no idea what sort of town player I am.

[LlamaFluff]

@Kerset, Bingle, Bambi - Please explain your vote split over a single pair.

[LlamaFluff]

My early gut is this is one of:

Vex-Klick/TBone
Bambi-Kerset/Bingle

[LlamaFluff]

This is a stark contrast to your type of content from last game Llama
My gut reads that as alignment-indicative. Should it?

No. Last game I was active when the game was active. Now im in after the fact (and about to go to bed) and trying to piece stuff together. Different scenarios entirely. It is different alignment, but even if I wanted not like it could be different in play so far. Office job (yay being old), and as said Thursdays are bad for access until very late.

Im mostly just thinking about pre-game topics and I think without my prodding that scum last game would have had to ad-lib what happened on the spot (if/when it gets released you will see that) so far my best read is Ana being afraid of me reads town as there is little reason to be afraid of a player they have never had any experience with playing town before, but reason to be afraid of a player who as scum was getting called town, if they themselves are town.

[LlamaFluff]

Feel like im replacing into this game... but now ive had some time to read so on a quick one some things that stand out.

Town

Ana+RM (both of them, Ana a bit more though)

As previously mentioned by their summary, I think Ana being "afraid" of me is more indicative of town who is afraid of being able to read me than it is scum being afraid of my ability to catch scum. Those are two entirely independent skillsets. Additionally RM seeming to like aiming at VTs is a point in their favor as their pair is seen as the most town of the lover sets. If they wanted to steer things to lovers, they nearly for sure live through today, and are in a good spot to live through the next day winning them the game flat out.

Kerset (by themselves)

I completely buy the whole "PT talk" thing from them and no matter their alignment, I dont see this being faked. There are players who I would talk far less to (and even some I would refuse to play with) that would impact pregame discussions. It also is 100% in line with how they had little to no real will to talk any sort of game last time. They also feel a bit more serious this time.

Nulls

T-Bone, Bingle

Lean Scum

Klick (by themselves)

I really dislike that just now he is claiming to have realized how hard this setup is for town. Granted I noticed it before the game even started the first time, but when the game was in progress it became more apparent pretty quickly. That was me as scum realizing that. Now no idea if I would have seen it as town, but that makes me uncomfortable. Same thing with him talking about how I am playing differently, and then entirely ignoring my response of its a null tell.

Scum

Bambi

This one is a little confusing. He isnt reading at the start of the game for one, but apart from that they are being passive to a point where it seems intentional that as long as they are going to be left alone that they are fine with whatever happens. Look at their discussion regarding lovers where they seem to show will to move in that direction, but also are willing to cede all control over to what other people want. That feels like scum who is willing to go with the flow if they arent upset with the direction of it. Vex interaction is very disjointed as well. Calls Vex town on meta, and then seems to say that they would be voting Vex without the meta? Its another hedge of bets. If I was strongly townreading any of the VT claims (spoiler alert on who is next on this list, im not), my vote would be almost locked in.

Vex

Granted now im playing from a town perspective so my "they are getting town read, lets just agree and reposition" isnt going to be the same, but it feels like Vex is getting caught up in trying to say that pre-game talk is the be all, end all. While I think its important, I dont think its going to change much for too many players depending on what their alignments are. Like town or scum, I would be super talkative in trying to line things up. Some other players (Kerse seems to be a good bet) probably wouldnt talk much game. Seeming to take a playstyle tell as a scumtell really bothers me. I do not at all believe that pair is lying about what was discussed (or theoretically discussed), if your lover isnt talking back what is the most Jingle can do? Aggressively info dump?

Its annoying that my two strongest scum reads are not in different pools. Feel very confident though that its exactly one of "Vex or Kers/Bingle" though. Will try and get a little more situated over the weekend (full catchup probably Sunday after getting shot #2) but im heavily leaning to a Vex vote right now.

[LlamaFluff]

I guess summarized in a way people seem to more like it:

Town - Ana, RM
Lean Town - Kers
Null - TBone, Bingle
Lean Scum - Klick
Scum - Vex, Bambi

[LlamaFluff]

Well im working that out, probably going to be a Vex vote as to a certain extent hesitancy (decent part of Bambi-scum read) can be a playstyle tell but I need to go back and read again. Would have definently preferred it if either of you did something I could call town though.

[LlamaFluff]

I claimed VT. That's pretty townie.

Lets try this question (actually if everyone can answer it I would appreciate)...

Why do you think there are wagons on both sides of the Kers/Bingle wagon and the TBone/Klick wagon? Is this any sort of a tell for the people voting or impact your opinion on those two slots?

Because its really bothering me and im trying to figure out why.

[LlamaFluff]

For lack of a better word its inefficient and maybe an excuse to avoid voting town who does get picked off.

Like if you want Player A who is a lover with Player B dead... Player B has two votes and A has none... why vote A?

[LlamaFluff]

Its more of a matter of no need to intentionally force yourself into a certain hole. I dont care who I see as best pick as scum, that is who is getting my vote. VT or Lover claim. We need scum on both sides dead.

[LlamaFluff]

For lack of a better word its inefficient and maybe an excuse to avoid voting town who does get picked off.

Like if you want Player A who is a lover with Player B dead... Player B has two votes and A has none... why vote A?

Who's this referring too first of all?

Anyone. Thats my confusion point. There seems to be a lot of people who are interested in two different pairs, but the votes arent at all consolidating and im not sure if its intentional or people dont actually realize what they are doing.

I claimed VT. That's pretty townie.

Lets try this question (actually if everyone can answer it I would appreciate)...

Why do you think there are wagons on both sides of the Kers/Bingle wagon and the TBone/Klick wagon? Is this any sort of a tell for the people voting or impact your opinion on those two slots?

Because its really bothering me and im trying to figure out why.

well with lovers it doesn't matter who you vote to elim since they both die? When the time to kill comes the votes will consolidate on one. I guess rn we're voting who we think is the scummier one of the pair. It's too say their main problem is with that person in particular.

Again... thats the confusing part. Lets say I think Player A is scum with no votes, but player B is their lover at at E-2.... im voting Player B. Essentially im looking at each lover pair as a hydra where both heads post. Just vote whoever has more votes. Wondering why people are not doing that, again it seems inefficient or being afraid to be called scum for doing so. For instance if I was going to vote one of Kers/Bingle, I would just look for who had the most votes, not which of the two I saw as more likely scum as they are guaranteed to share an alignment.

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - You are wrong. Drop it. No matter what your alignment is. No matter what his alignment is. You are wrong. Drop it.

[LlamaFluff]

There is *no* tell of any kind if its referred to as lovers/masons/etc... if you want to just pretend that town roles are "Town Mason Lovers" do that because that is what they are. This is horribly unproductive, distracting and anti-town that is just causing clutter and making the game harder to read because its sucking up so much attention.

[LlamaFluff]

If you think he is town (or even probably) dont do that. Policy is pretty much a D1 immediate move. Utility is more of this, but only if you have no read on them.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Vex

Can someone who was town last time tell me if this feels familiar? It feels familiar to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Then ignore. This is not a policy setting. This is not a utility setting. We get one wrong move in each group. If you are town and he is town I think that this would actually give scum the win here and now if it goes through. If you feel im town over the last few pages just vote Vex and put all your trust for RM being town into his partner. That will at least start forcing reactions from the rest of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

counterpoint to llama - you were scum last game and you were able to deepwolf. what’s stopping you from doing it again this game?

I dont think my position was great last game. D1 was going to be scum pair or RM part... D2 the other. I was trying to figure out if I needed to bus or not to make it to endgame when everything got rerolled (was planning to take out RM since some of their wording on pregame was clumsy and made it sound like conversations were still happening), maybe was at 50% or a little better depending on what Tbone did spot. Is this also kind of a "good as scum so have to get rid of for safety" stance?

People underestimate how much a logical and calming presence just gets read as town. Always has worked, probably always will work to a certain extent.

Anyone have data on if Bambi is more likely to sheep as scum or town?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm like a cat. it's based on my current mood whether I follow people or not.

Its just what im trying to figure out... the "test" reaction votes like my Vex one have since coming back attracted just town reactions, but this is a very particular setup where it doesnt quite apply the same way that normals do. There is all the reason in the world for you to make that vote as town or scum, im actually a bit more interested in how Vex reads both of us because of it.

[LlamaFluff]

Also still have no idea how I was townread that much in the first game. Again was just being that logical/calming presence that for some reason works out so often if you also can words good (shameless if you can once everything is open go join Toastmasters, it actually really helps plug)

[LlamaFluff]

@Vex - Do you read me as less town that last game?

[LlamaFluff]

wdym?

Last game you said I was town when I was scum.

Now you are being nervous about me when I am town due to fear, but I dont know how you are actually reading me. Do you think im town again, or is your read different? Im trying to drill down into some stuff here and where you really stand on me, and by association Bambi (as to you one of us must be scum), is a bit important to all of it. I know you are paranoid, but also dont know what you actually think of me and for what reasons.

[LlamaFluff]

@Bambi - Is your vote more based on thinking Vex is scum or that I am town?

[LlamaFluff]

i'm thinking you're town-ish, but i'm second-guessing myself because of last game.

So what is your read on Bambi voting you when I put pressure on him to vote you if they thought I was town?

[LlamaFluff]

@Bambi - Is your vote more based on thinking Vex is scum or that I am town?

Vex pairs better with the other guys. You'd pair with Rational I guess but we aren't aiming for the Pairs RN so I guess that's alright.

So RM pair is scum its me
Any other pair its Vex?

You have any game where you were in a 1v1 regardless of alignment I can look at?

[LlamaFluff]

i can't read you, which is why i want you dead first tbh

Lets say no choice. You go to bed with this exact current vote count. Wake up with enough votes to be eliminated but surprise you are awarded a vengeful shot, who eats it?

[LlamaFluff]

That's why townhunting is a strong strategy this game. If we can hard identify a town player in a pool, we can afford to lim the rest of that pool.

Okay. Your staking the game on a town pick (obviously excluding you) from each pool. Go.

[LlamaFluff]

i can't read you, which is why i want you dead first tbh

Lets say no choice. You go to bed with this exact current vote count. Wake up with enough votes to be eliminated but surprise you are awarded a vengeful shot, who eats it?

there are three potential kills, with two different interpretations of the vengeful role:
- i die as soon as i kill someone
- i don't die, and i'm confirmed as town (wnaf vengeful)

if its the first, i re-read, and then shoot either you or bambi. it depends on how townie i feel bambi is.
if i feel bambi is town, you die. if not, she dies.
if it's the wnaf vengeful, where the elim doesn't actually go through, and i'm given a vengeful shot - kerset always dies. the fact i don't die confirms me as town, and i remove the pair i think is currently scum.

So am I right that in this exact instant you think I am more likely town but the paranoia is so bad that you would rather stake the game on me being scum than Bambi? Im not sure I have had this level of sway over people being scared about me than back in my golden era where if I was alive D3 that as a scumtell

[LlamaFluff]

@Bambi - Can you please explain your vote on Vex?

[LlamaFluff]

That's why townhunting is a strong strategy this game. If we can hard identify a town player in a pool, we can afford to lim the rest of that pool.

Okay. Your staking the game on a town pick (obviously excluding you) from each pool. Go.

Didn't I just say a couple pages ago what my solve would be, but that I had little confidence?

If I had to pick right now it'd be Bambi as VT and Ana/RM as town lovers.

Making sure as apparently Friday night is VT night.

@mod

- Can we get a VC?

[LlamaFluff]

Im just trying to figure out of Vex would actually use "I cant read them" as a reason to push a wagon as town right now when they apparently have no reason to town read the other member.

[LlamaFluff]

Im just trying to figure out of Vex would actually use "I cant read them" as a reason to push a wagon as town right now when they apparently have no reason to town read the other member.

i look at it this way:
i'd much rather have someone i know i can flag as town/scum alive than someone i cannot flag as either alignment.

When do you successfully read Bambi then? What needs to happen first?

Also again how do you know you cant read me when you *never* have played with me as town until now?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama's heyday is before I was on site. He was the listmod (Open queue) when I modded my first game.

But yeah its been a minute... Think something like 2011 to 2018 that was what I did before leaving and then now being bored and back in limited capacity. Heck anyone around from 2015 on might my alt better

[LlamaFluff]

i don't think i've ever played with bambi before. i think they were in one of my games a long time ago, but i barely remember that. wrt to reading bambi, i just need the game to play out more.
additionally, i know my own limits as a player, and i feel like i have a relatively firm idea of what your playstyle is, which is why i feel comfortable making these calls atm.

So how do you know you can read Bambi? Seems convenient to claim that you cant read me as a vote reason and then have nothing to back up being able to read Bambi correctly as not. Also does this mean its impossible for you to read Bambi without me being dead? Because thats not a read, that a PoE argument that you just need to come up with reasons for when presenting.

Just home from from second shot, so there is a chance I go silent for next 24-48 hours if I dont react well.

[LlamaFluff]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

So what is your thought then on Vex seemingly to prefer a vote on me when they claim that I cant be read, but Bambi can? Do you agree that it seems that if Vex is town, the correct approach would be to read Bambi and then use that to form an opinion on me? Otherwise its just voting town out first followed by saying "By PoE Bambi is scum". Thats not reading Bambi.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama - bingle has literally said bambi’s playstyle is 70% mine.
bambi has also agreed to this.
why *wouldn’t* i be able to read someone whose playstyle is very similar to mine?

So you are basing your ability to read a player off nothing more than two people saying that they see you as similar? That just doesnt make sense to me for a variety of options as people play differently as town, as scum, as PRs, when they have town reads, when they have scum reads... everything factors into it (which is to me why "meta" is more of a general gauge of how competent a players is expected to be). Plus just haven played a lot under an alt, to me there is a lot of minor tweaks that internally get made for how you view things that damages ability to be correctly read as styles are not entirely the same to start.

Also...

3) bambi literally admitted to shitposting because she knew i would be able to clear ourselves, so last game is an inaccurate representation of her meta.

Doesnt this mean you *cant* read them well, or at least that if they want they can entirely change how they play a game? If they can easily break their own meta and you agree to it seems to invalidate part of your own argument.

Either way, why not try and just read Bambi still and then use that to read me?

[LlamaFluff]

I think we are in the same ballpark but looking at things from somewhat different angles... so just let me know when I have your reasoning wrong:

You can read Bambi better than me
You have no read on Bambi
You do not want to go for a VT today
If you had to right now you would vote me over Bambi

Assuming all of that is true, when do you feel that you would be able to read Bambi?

Also an aside... change skin color when on an alt. That helped me in the past.

[LlamaFluff]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

You know it is really hard to solve lovers when Ana, T-Bone and Klick are pretty much inactive.

I had doubts but thanks for reassuring me with this post that I'm right.

Who is scum in VT claims?

[LlamaFluff]

Feels like we are quickly moving towards Vex vs Bingle/Kers vs Tbone/Klick though. People need to start being clear about which of those is what they want most.

[LlamaFluff]

You feel town to me this game Llama
I read your posts and I don't feel like you're trying to heavily control the state of the game
And I get the impression that you very much like to do that as scum?

Idk if that's the perfect way to describe what I'm seeing but tldr you're feeling towny to me and to some extent it's because you're seeming relatively chill

Yes and no again. Probably a bit more likely to try and control or at openly least nudge games in a direction as scum, but all it means is that the game is moving in a direction that I dont like and I want to step in and push it back to something that makes me happier. I will break calm character as both alignments though if I feel its needed. Its always very situational dependent though. Its true but an oversimplification. Ive remembered games where after dying as a town PR in one game I get called scum as VT in other because actions arent matching up (as to me they arent the same scenario).

Can I get all lover pairs opinions on the RM/Ana duo?

[LlamaFluff]

VOTE: Bambi Jay

Awesome. So what is your opinion on the RM/Ana duo? Vex too for that matter.

[LlamaFluff]

Leaning VV as I said the last time I posted about my reads.

Cool. Lets go that way then unless you have a good reason to be very sure of a lover town read.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd rather do the lovers first. Two main reasons. 1) It's 50-50 from my perspective. 2) The benefit to getting it right on Day 1 is greater than getting the VT right on Day 1, in terms of confirmed towns floating around (which synergizes with point 1)

Also I feel stronger about the lover's pair at this point. My ghost vote is on Bingle/Kerset.

Still not entirely sure I buy the Lovers is right due to confirmed town (as noted a lover pair is basically a hydra who both heads post) but... what is split to you for right pair? Most people have been saying RM/Ana are town... thoughts on that one?

[LlamaFluff]

For Town!LLama, he knows he must get this shot correct between VV & Bambi Jay, because if he misses, he dies next and the town loses the game.

He must put maximum effort into his solve - to give the town the best odds of winning the game.

For Scum!Llama, he knows it doesn't matter what his solve is, he will die next elimination no matter which townie he pushes out for the first elim.

This creates a readable difference between what LlamaPuff does.

Or get this... like ive been telling VV: Why not try and get a solid town read on VV or Bambi? Doesnt that help a lot in solving me?

I still really have no idea why people are even afraid of me to such an extent when I only had maybe 10 or so posts with content last game. Its making me think that scum are just using it as an excuse to attack me when the otherwise would have no ability to because I *havent done anything scummy apart from being town-read last game*. Its a sample size of not even one. Its a sample size of maybe 10% of a game. I dont think anyone in this game has seen me play a game as town in at least four or five years, so apparently that makes me unreadable.

Also your last part of reasoning is very dangerously flawed. If I was scum here and know that I go tomorrow, you have given me so much power in deciding what the end of the game will look like. I pretty much get to decide what VT goes to the end, and setup as many interactions with lover pairs as I want that look like whatever I want them to look like. It goes way back, but had a game where town inadvertently did that to me and scum pretty much just coasted to an easy win.

[LlamaFluff]

@VV - Again, at what point do you feel you can read Bambi enough to make that the primary motivation for a vote in VT pool?

[LlamaFluff]

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

[LlamaFluff]

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.

Given this, I think the real question Llama wants answered is why haven't you been trying to talk to Bambi in order to sort her?

because i simply haven’t had the motivation to actually try this game thus far, plus i work close to 40hrs/week and end up sleeping most of the day when I get home, so my time on the forums is limited

I get work can be a thing, but you have to see how this is unfair to me right? I pretty much have someone saying that if they wanted to they could solve the pair, but dont have the time so I get the vote. From my perspective I am either dealing with town who wont/cant game solve or scum who knows if they want/cant fake gamesolve that they have created reason to just target someone because they are "good as scum". Seems like a really simple thing for scum to come up with to just try and hope to back a wagon that otherwise they have no reason to push. Even if you arent lying about time issues, stalling/avoiding reads with limited time is a thing. Its the pure lack of doing anything to figure out Bambi that makes me think you are scum here.

@Kers/Ana - Do you back your lovers read of the other pair? Yes or no.

[LlamaFluff]

by other pair do you specifically mean Ana/RM or both other pairs or his scumread Bone?

You arent voting with your lover. Are they wrong?

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - Please list all the individual lover slots (not as pairs) as scummiest to most likely to be town.

[LlamaFluff]

Also one thing I missed

@Ana - How confident are you in my ability to play as town?

[LlamaFluff]

also, wrt time constraints, why would i lie about that to influence a game of mafia? yes this is my try-hard account, but i’m above trying to use things like that. not to mention i’m relatively certain i have actually mentioned on the site before my irl circumstances since it did lead to me siteflaking at several points. i will not answer anything further on this topic until post-game either, and i will likely only answer it in speakeasy, because i don’t want this to be publicly available unless i make it that.

Im not saying you are lying about that. Im just saying that limited time could result in stalling tactics a bit. Like if I had one hour a day and I am in a better spot in a game if I dont say anything, I wont like about not having time, but might slow pace of play intentionally or just continually promise "its coming" without ever planning to follow through with it. Do you see where I am though in an "its unfair to me to literally be unable to defend myself" approach though? Its one of the biggest reasons I think you are scum, you continue to say you can read Bambi but in absence of a read will vote me, and have never seemed to even make an attempt to read Bambi.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

- Are we ever getting last game topics released?

[LlamaFluff]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

[LlamaFluff]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

Are you not following along with the game?

(I can and I will, but considering Kerset was the leading wagon and I was the counter wagon at the time you made the post I'm not sure why you don't have a better handle on this)

Sort of... getting sick earlier in the week cost me a lot of motivation for this game and am realizing what I want to happen wont so now need to solve in an area that I wanted to just leave alone for today and to me interactions across VT/Lover pools in this game are useless in D1. Its interactions within them that count.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not liking the fact that I still feel the RM/Ana slots are town because it means if we dont get it right today we have to actually rely on them in the future. Both seem to miss the fact that you *want* people to like you regardless of alignment... and im pretty sure that even if they are scum this open fighting is legitimate.

[LlamaFluff]

@VFP - Can you give a quick summary of pre-game talk from lovers topic and what happened since then in it? Seems like shift have happened and want to confirm.

[LlamaFluff]

The difference in all three reactions to me asking VFP about lovers topic really is interesting. Will have to dig into that because those are three very different responses that seem to come from three different mindsets. First instinct is one town reaction, one null and one somewhat scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

The difference in all three reactions to me asking VFP about lovers topic really is interesting. Will have to dig into that because those are three very different responses that seem to come from three different mindsets. First instinct is one town reaction, one null and one somewhat scummy.

Thats a fancy way to call us null as a whole.

Not sure how you are getting that when three lovers, all from different pairs, have chimed in when I say "one is town, one null, one scum" for the responses. Although for you specifically yes you were the null response. I am shocked none of the three mentioned was I was hoping for though.

[LlamaFluff]

So who was which? I only see two reacting, me and Kerset. Who was the third? The one you actually asked?

Yep.

VFP said about what I expected would be said as either alignment. Was a little surprised there was no "we havent been able to talk since day one" but I think that can be added or left out regardless of alignment, so its ultimately just a null tell. Whole question was really just a trap to see if VFP said something had been discussed beyond the first day starting, where they would be confirmed scum.

You do something a little bit similar, but again ignore the fact that I asked about what had been talked about beyond pregame. As town might not even think about the fact that scum has daytalk, and you were town first game, makes me think you are a little more likely town for that reaction because it seems far more likely for town to gloss over it than for scum to do the same. The theory that operating with too much knowledge can at times lead to an inadvertent show of the cards, or at least make statements from a mindset town isnt likely to reach.

Leaves Kerset who goes right to talking about scum topics, and actually is somewhat wrong too. Last game scum didnt get a topic, at least not out the gate. They had to ask for one and improvise in the main scum topic because they never got one in a reasonable amount of time. Which is why I think saying that "scum got a PT" is a bit of an odd statement, as last game they *didnt* until it was requested. Making the assumption that they have one this time feels like scum who knows that either now they were given one, or it was requested. The "playing with too much information" thing from last time, especially as if its worthless to talk about PT stuff... why wasnt Kerset complaining about it out the gate during the first few pages.

Kerset answer is just the most unexpected from me. RM comes from a point of ignorance to something that makes me think town. VFP is just a pure null tell either way, I doubt it would change much if at all depending on alignment.

@mod

- Can we get an extension? We just replaced almost a third of the game and now have under 48 hours to deadline with weekend when a lot of people disappear coming up.

[LlamaFluff]

There is major difference. First time you wanted to check whenever PT was used, now you are trying to check whenever Klick story matches VFP story. All VFP had to do is to check PT.
In previous iteration mod said that lack of scum PT was a mistake, so the fact that this time he will fix it is obvious especially that prev game was canceled thanks to information, which were in town lover PT. Mod wouldn't risk another reroll... do i really need to explain it to setup reviewer?

Now that I look at it... go back and check sample roles for this game. There still is no spot for a scum lover topic. Looks like the town thread lock is only change.

If mod used word for word the same stuff as in samples, still no scum topic unless it was requested. So now I need to think about that one.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually wait a second why does it matter if we run out of time if scum don't have a nightphase to shoot us or something

@Mod:

What would you actually do in a nightless game if we run outta time?

The concept I have come across is that the first to non-act is the side that's blackmailed to act unless they want a nobody-wins ending (which is mutual gamethrow by all sides).

I actually checked this pre-game to confirm... its old school rules (like pre 2012 standard ruleset) where if no majority highest vote getter goes. If its a tie whoever got to that number of votes first goes.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

We are also currently the defacto plurality lim. Given that if nothing changes we die, asking people to commit to a stance on us seems common sense.

And thats why I want the VV/SS slot dead. Both other VT pool slots are voting there, and that just feel wrong because neither of them are actually doing anything that looks like a bus.

Lets try this

Vote Ana

They are just bantering... which is essentially all they did in the mafia topic last time. Plus I dont think this is a lover pair bus because neither one seems to be jockying to get any sort of credit, and im not sure why TBone scum is trying to poke holes in me pressuring Kerset.

Do people actually buy meta now or something? VT meta in an open is going to be different than town PR meta in a closed vs pretty much everything else. There are so many things that go into why someone is acting like they do beyond alignment. Meta is just a baseline skill/theory thing, know how good someone is so if they are going out of their way to do something detrimental that can become a tell instead of just a "bad player" thing. Beyond that its next to worthless.

[LlamaFluff]

@All lover pairs voting another lover pair - Explain your read on the pair you are not voting. Basically how much of your vote is a scum read, how much is a town read on other pair.

[LlamaFluff]

ok llama you want to kill there (like me) but you can see give opinions on the other pool

I did. I voted Ana. Most of the game is them buddying to you. What do you read differently from their interactions and play from last game?

[LlamaFluff]

ok llama you want to kill there (like me) but you can see give opinions on the other pool

I did. I voted Ana. Most of the game is them buddying to you. What do you read differently from their interactions and play from last game?

i am still referring to the fact that you didn't make a stance about me-Tbone

Doesnt my vote give somewhat of an idea about where my thoughts are on your pairs? As in I would rather VV/SS go, but if in lover pool... neither of you two?

@llama @VV please make a stand point around me, Bone and that staff. You are avoiding this for too long and this will be crucial for future association.

ignored....

I mean... you are voting in the VT pool.

Weren't you the one asking for a deadline extension...? And you decide to vote for the pair not one of the leading wagons after avoiding this literally all day? What?

Yep.

Dont like the way this is going on, so im trying to change it up and see what shakes out. I dont think that the votes from VT pool make sense if Kerset/Bingle are scum, and I have a town read on you and VFP/Bingle make sense, so trying new things. Also yes again. I dont think if you are scum you take a swipe at my reasoning for Kesert-scum over the reaction to VFP question.

[LlamaFluff]

I mean... I think unless someone is being obtuse we are heading to:

Kerset/Bingle - TBone/VFP, SS, Bambi
Tbone/VFP - Kerset/Bingle, Ana/RM
Ana/RM - The hero of our story

If people dont agree with where I am putting them, they probably need to move their vote.

[LlamaFluff]

i dont think that SS declared sr on us but ok

Well that is where his vote is.

Either way can you explain what your reads of the VT vote scenario is? I would like to actually hear it from everyone. Two lover pairs seem to be coalescing on a third, yet no VT seems willing to go there.

[LlamaFluff]

Either way can you explain what your reads of the VT vote scenario is?

VT vote scenario? What is it?

Both other VT claims are voting you. None of us are voting TBone/VFP. What does that mean to you for all three of the pool.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't want to vote for T-bone though because if T-bone flips green I'll know my Kerset is scum and I don't think I can handle that >.> <.< I just want to stay with him forever.

Can we just do the VTs first?

Like missing on the Lover Pair puts us at Lylo tommorrow with scum quickhammer available on 1 misplaced vote, but if we mis-execute on the VT side that's not really true because scum still need 2 bad votes to win.

Is this reversed for anyone else? To me if we can 100% hit scum I would prefer lover target. If we hit town, I would prefer it in VT group.

[LlamaFluff]

@Ana - You feel that you can accurately meta me from a game that lasted about 48 hours, barely hit 10 pages, had zero flips, etc? Especially if you arent aware of town meta?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm fine with being eliminated here as long as I have assurances from the others in this game that T-bone and VFP follow us out 100% of the time. I will have many words for the townside post-game if somehow Kerset/Bingle get eliminated after us.

I don't share RM's conviction that Bambi is the goon. I still believe Llama is more likely as the Goon.

I trust Kerset/Bingle to make the right reads on the VT side.

Just out of curiosity... explain what you see my motivations from when you knew I was scum this game to now. Do you think that if you are town here I just decide not to bus whoever is scum and in your mind go for a D2 win when I showed pretty much no willingness to do that last game? Again you saw me as scum for about 48 hours and a dozen pages. You are that sure you can read me when never seeing me as town before? Most "good" (and im probably not that much of that category anymore) players tend to read fairly similar regardless of alignment.

Also just because boy why not try and talk about optimal scum play... optimal play for scum if the lover pairs is first targeted is not to try and protect/bus their buddies but to make sure that the pair who is most convinced of them being town lives. Because thats how they win unless town "obv town" lover pair is scum. Its why this setup is inherently flawed as there should be little to no interactions between Lovers-Solo slots that means anything unless you correctly read what scum is going for.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't see why you feel the need to interact with me if town!you believes I'm scum and will flip red and yourself to be proven right.

My words might as well mean nothing to you - the fanciful wind.

I guess more than the fact that if I am wrong it increases chance of town losing with you acting like that?

This does I guess back up the fact that you are probably scum because you wont actually explain your read here. Im thinking its because there is no basis to it, but why would town!you bother justifying a meta read or any motivations when asked when you flipping red basically confirms me as town as wins us the game.

Its actually a little funny. Last game RM was town and was going to get killed for being obtuse. This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

[LlamaFluff]

Its actually a little funny. Last game RM was town and was going to get killed for being obtuse. This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

That's funny because I'm much sharper when I'm actually scum.

When I'm town I tend to care less about winning the argument.

So you play anti-town as town? Also so SS is town because... OMGUS?

Also theoretically thats already a hammer.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

I just dont want this to end without one more look through tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

So vote me then. If we can get this back in VT pool and end up with a dead SS thats still ideal to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Who says we have to? If you think I am more likely scum vote me. I want SS dead. Bambi has been pretty clear they want SS dead over me. Move the wagon if you are confident about it. Otherwise its just more proof of "meta" which you wont back and "I want to sleep on it" is all you have.

Llama, you're confident Bambi is town?

Due to VV I am confident enough to make that move today. They were far and way scummiest person. Its not quite willing to bet the game on it, but I absolutely would be willing to deal with fallout of being wrong on you here.

[LlamaFluff]

I absolutely would be willing to deal with fallout of being wrong on you here.

Which is... what? Probably losing the game?

You underestimate me, but yes taking a pretty major shot as it pretty much comes down to can I stop more than two town screwing up from there on.

[LlamaFluff]

Vex tried to kill Llama first cuz they couldn't read him as well as me due to us having similar personalities...

Well there seems to be a step missing here. If Vex voted Llama because Vex couldn't read Llama but they can read you, then presumably Vex voted Llama because they can read you and got a townread on you. Or else what you said is a mischaracterization, because even if they had a blatantly scum-motivated reason, they wouldn't have admitted as much in the thread.

Can you point to where Vex explained this?

See this gets to the core point of why I have VV as scum.

They apparently after a game that got called after 48 hours and 12 pages were so scared of me, that they would rather vote me over Bambi. However they state that they think they Bambi is a player that they can read. Then *never* got a read on Bambi, or did anything to make that read on Bambi happen. That was the crux of VV being scum. A cop out of "im afraid of a player" who there was very limited time to ever get a read on, coupled with apparently a confidence to read another player on, which from their standpoint as town would reveal my alignment, and no follow through.

There is a difference between town being lazy and scum trying to stall. I dont doubt that VV actually lost time and needed to be replaced, but how someone says "I cant read X, but can read Y" when Y to them is opposite of X and never makes an attempt to read X is town. Thats why I think Vex was scum. I get trying to form a read of one player off of another. I dont get the feeling that its your only option (especially as again they had about 48 hours of D1 scum me experience) and then never following through on it.

I guess also to an extent there are more than just me scum reading VV on not feeling the same, but I dont trust my meta fully as again very small sample and its hard to compare players when you were playing as scum but now as town as you pay attention to a lot of different things.

[LlamaFluff]

@Ana - You feel that you can accurately meta me from a game that lasted about 48 hours, barely hit 10 pages, had zero flips, etc? Especially if you arent aware of town meta?

@llama Why did you have no problem with Tbone doing the same on me?

llama ignores my questions again...

What post. I dont see something that is at least as similar as you think.

Vote SS

I like Bingle vote here because it doesnt make sense from scum, regardless of what SS is.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama backing away from Ana and myself seems like scum scared to be on Town bw after realising third vanilla and other pair aren't joining in.

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

What post. I dont see something that is at least as similar as you think.

So why did Tbone voted me in your understanding?

Because you are using arguments regarding activity as a reason to read someone (which is not a tell without lacking a lot of context) that couples with you not expanding much on reads beyond that even when asked. In addition to that you did it last game. Thats the difference. Im getting that he think what you are doing is in of itself a tell, but is compounded by the small sample size of you having done it as scum previously. A meta based supplement instead of a meta based core. A lot of why I am thinking its Ana/RM over your pair is Bingle reads as somewhat town to me.

[LlamaFluff]

This makes somewhere between zero and no sense, unless you are saying that as town I would just be death tunneling you? You do realize your slot is all but dead if we do go back to lover pairs right?

So go back, do it, then vote Tbone and VFP. Then Vote Bambi and then vote yourself. That is what I want to happen. I've made that very clear.

Then vote yourself here. Its apparently what you want to happen and you are "very clear" about that.

You are also kind of being an idiot to think that if I was scum and my partners were getting votes I wouldnt bus. Mod still hasnt released topics which im getting increasingly frustrated about, but I explicitly noted to partners last game that if it looked like best way to win the game was a bus, I was going to do so. Either one of them can confirm it publicly. If it was the best way to win, I would take it... and if you are town here your thought is... I dont bus and instead try and make a new wagon that if it doesnt go through *does* probably come back to hurt me? Really? If you are town you have a conclusion you want, and are trying to force anything you can to match it and its blindinly apparent. You are trying to work backwards because you cant actually come to that conclusion connecting the dots forward. But thats why I think you are scum, you dont need to solve because you know the answer.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, it is very important in this setup to force voters not to be yourself or your lover if you're a pair. Voting patterns will reveal a lot post-flip

Theoretically I 100% disagree with this one. Scum want to be the most town read one in their group. Nothing else matters. If their other half dies first at the expense of them winning the game, its the right move. The only time I think VT-Lover interactions start holding a lot more merit is D1 mishit, then D2 would actually serve purpose.

Also was a little snide... but the "vote yourself" was just a response to you saying that I should vote myself after Bambi (who I think is likely town). Just getting frustrated, will try and tone it down but its not always easy.

@Ana - Can you confirm what I said about bussing last game in scum topic?

[LlamaFluff]

SS (3) - Bingle, LlamaFluff, Bambi Jay
Anastasia (2) - VFP, T-Bone
T-Bone (1) - RationalMadman
Bambi Jay (1) - Kerset
Bingle (1) - Something_Smart
LF (1) - Anastasia

16ish hours to go. As it stands SS is dying here. Just to note im not entirely sure I am going to be on near deadline (about 7-8am my time), if so it might just be minutes before it hits.

[LlamaFluff]

@Anastasia why Llama over Bambi? I want Bambi before anything else because of Llama is Town here I am certain S_S goes next and that is absolutely suboptimal for what I read. I am very sure it's Bambi or Llama, S_S had every reason to either vote Tbone or us right then and there, the hesitation is a Towntell as a Vanilla claim there. Bambi is, On balance, scummier and has been relentlessly opportunistic and strangely willing to align with a pair for seemingly no reason at all.

Half wrong. SS would pretty much be dead if they voted you/Ana as they had clearly called you town. Regardless of your alignment that ends poorly for SS.

[LlamaFluff]

Read Vex earlier and add it to S_S there. How is this scum? I do not believe it at all.

Strongest point to me is look at how they came into the game with looking at me and Bambi. Vex says they can read Bambi, and they arent able to read me and seem nervous about it due to the limited sample of last game, saying in absence of read they would vote me because of it. Then we play a lot of the game, and Vex makes zero attempt to ever read Bambi like they originally claimed, while still seeming to stick hard to the fact that in lack of that read, they would vote me.

Sure its probably in part of where I am that this looks even worse, but if I see one player who pure odds is 50/50 scum saying they can solve one player and refusing to up until they replace out, thats pretty bad in my books. I can see having a harder time than expected to pin down Bambi for Vex, but in what world is there never an attempt to actually figure out Bambi when Vex is town? Even if they want to go lovers first, its nonsensical to actually avoid trying to game solve the player who that if they are confident in their ability would read could either take down or confirm town a player that they are nervous around? That play to me comes from scum who is absolutely fine with me going first given their fear of having to go 1v1, or having to after spent time claiming they can accurately read a player be "wrong" on them and be in serious trouble.

[LlamaFluff]

Read Vex earlier and add it to S_S there. How is this scum? I do not believe it at all.

Strongest point to me is look at how they came into the game with looking at me and Bambi. Vex says they can read Bambi, and they arent able to read me and seem nervous about it due to the limited sample of last game, saying in absence of read they would vote me because of it. Then we play a lot of the game, and Vex makes zero attempt to ever read Bambi like they originally claimed, while still seeming to stick hard to the fact that in lack of that read, they would vote me.

Sure its probably in part of where I am that this looks even worse, but if I see one player who pure odds is 50/50 scum saying they can solve one player and refusing to up until they replace out, thats pretty bad in my books. I can see having a harder time than expected to pin down Bambi for Vex, but in what world is there never an attempt to actually figure out Bambi when Vex is town? Even if they want to go lovers first, its nonsensical to actually avoid trying to game solve the player who that if they are confident in their ability would read could either take down or confirm town a player that they are nervous around? That play to me comes from scum who is absolutely fine with me going first given their fear of having to go 1v1, or having to after spent time claiming they can accurately read a player be "wrong" on them and be in serious trouble.

So... Why is Bambi Town to you? Or have you only read Vex? Also, what you mention just means Vex has flawed logic, which I completely agree to. Vex jumps to many conclusions such as that because Vex in their opinion plays similar to Bambi that this somehow is basis to eliminate another player... That is indeed ridiculous to me but not scummy. It's a nulltell.

Bambi is only very slight town. Maybe top three town reads?

How do you differentiate Vex-town and Vex-scum not making an attempt to game solve though? Especially if I am town doesnt how scummy that play is change to you? As town its just being lazy or having been wrong about ability to form a read (even though there never was an attempt). As scum it can play directly into their advantage as they have a free vote on town until they "solve" Bambi.

[LlamaFluff]

I think its just a bit interesting because it moved death from the only pair I have no town read on to biggest scum read... right now im at something like

Town: Bingle
Lean Town: VFP
Null: Bambi, TBone, RM (in order)
Lean Scum: Kerset
Scum: Ana, SS

[LlamaFluff]

I think my money's on Llama scum, though I'm not terribly confident in that. I don't see what scum-Bambi expects to gain by continuing to argue I'm scum.

Probably because of the scenario that happens if you vote him... which why arent you really?

[LlamaFluff]

I think my money's on Llama scum, though I'm not terribly confident in that. I don't see what scum-Bambi expects to gain by continuing to argue I'm scum.

Probably because of the scenario that happens if you vote him... which why arent you really?

Isn't Bambi a 'her'?

I saw you do this before with someone else I think hut it may have been last game.

If you are actually trying to say I am intentionally using wrong pronouns... wow thats just blatantly uncalled for and probably going beyond game content. Typically I try and use "them" in most cases but at times my mind latches onto things like username (like how Bambi is male is Disney) or avatars. Just point it out and I try to fix it. You are just being a bit of an asshole there.

[LlamaFluff]

Ana change to Bambi please.

I'm pretty sure it's Llama here. Why does nobody else see it?

if we kill Bambi and she flips green, Llama is just going to skewer and murder SS tomorrow and the game is over.

The fact that you two cant agree bothers me on a gut level...

Do you think is we kill SS today and they are town that it means Bambi doesnt die tomorrow? You already have (if you are town) at least one town on Bambi (RM or Kerset... with Bingle also showing intent to be willing to sheep Kerset)

[LlamaFluff]

I swear the fact that Ana/RM is like a separated couple that cant ever agree on the weather but still lives together makes this game annoying... so its me and who? Because at least one town lover is on SS here. Im almost doubting they are scum because that much internal conflict would be brilliant play (even if with RM... I dont think much faking it would be required)

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - Again. I think you are overstating SS not voting you. If they did and you are town, there is a very much non-zero chance SS dies D2 as they outright had called you town already.

I really really really hate the fact that im starting to think RM and Ana are town who basically are in a spot where they refuse to agree about anything out of pure spite for each other.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama do you atleast agree with me Tbone and VFP are the confirmed town or are you with Bingle and Kerset.

Nope. Thats what im trying to figure out. I think Bingle is most town, but TBone/VFP are more town than Kerset is. Not sure what my final call would be right now. If RM/Ana went first and were town, probably a lot of that day would decide who I voted out of the other two.

@RM - Trying to do this without crossing a line... If I use a wrong pronoun, just say "Hey thats not right" and I will fix it. I am never going to try and mess that up, same thing with name shortenings, or anything long those lines. I internalize what I think is acceptable, but at times people dont like it. If you try and make me look bad for a mistake there, im never going to react well. If you accuse me of intentionally misgendering someone again, I will have absolutely no qualms with taking things to another level, because that is way fucking out of the game and entirely unacceptable.

[LlamaFluff]

I think Llama essentially flipping the game away from perhaps the correct elimination to an incorrect one is more suspect. The only thing that gives me pause is that Llama puts themselves at risk to be the Day 2 lim. But it's also the type of thing I'd do as solo scum I think, as Day 3 is MyLo if we get there, and scum lovers have a slightly better EV I think than solo scum in that situation.

So for me I have two minds. Is Bambi pocketing me, or is Llama making the play I think I'd make as scum in his position?

If its RM/Ana... wouldnt it have been the worst possible thing for me as scum to flip it away from that pair after trying to redirect it there are deadline? Its already now proven and was likely that SS was the first from the VT pool to go, and if we move back to this same scenario with RM/Ana scum already dead it pretty much means I would win right?

Instead we get this scenario where at least one player who has to be VT has already expressed they would vote me over Bambi.

Vote Bambi

[LlamaFluff]

wouldnt it have been the worst possible thing for me as scum to flip it away from that pair after trying to redirect it there are deadline? Its already now proven and was likely that SS was the first from the VT pool to go, and if we move back to this same scenario with RM/Ana scum already dead it pretty much means I would win right?

Depends on your pair and how deeply confident you were that your pair won the following day's vote-off.

I think you were semi-confident that if S_S hammered Ana and me, even if your pair lost the vote-off, you'd win the 3-way (as S_S would be voted).

Again thats just not the player I am to *save* a partner without being convinced its a winning move, or at least due to game balance the only non-losing move. I can try and dig up a really old example, but one of my better scum games that actually proves this mentality from a long time ago was one of the Science (5-2 setup, 2 masons, scum have daytalk) where during D1 scum figured out both masons and I got one VT fully onboard with me being town. Bus D1, Masons eat both NKs, no one even thinks about me being scum until final day where my VT partner pretty much just quickhammers other town. Thats how you play a bus scenario, and thats how I would have been playing it here as scum. Again Ana and Kerset can confirm that almost immediately in the PT I told them that if I thought it would win the game I was going to outright bus, which was not a lie at all. You have to know when bussing wins.

If you are town, I would need to be in a scenario where I was 100% sure that my partners would live to be willing to pull off that type of move, and we are nowhere near that sort of scenario. Even then abandoning it just makes everything more risky, especially taking a U-Turn at the end there. Big part of being scum is being risk adverse unless you think that you are going to lose.

I still kinda want someone to explain my scum thought process for both RM/Ana as scum or town... especially as them-scum it just seems exceedingly counter productive to make that sort of move because why not just finish the bus there? That probably wins me the game. We see SS goes immediately, and then Bambi probably follows them right out the door.

[LlamaFluff]

because I literally poured my soul into the thread and he knows if we flip town his scum buddies will go down tomorrow and then he will flip after that.

he knows he couldn't get away with shitpushing us out the game and us flipping green so he switched target to SS because SS is terrible at defending himself

Wait... how do you know who would have died next if you are town who went D1? I had no idea beyond it was going to be up to the VTs, most of us appeared to have not fully formed opinions.

Also your opinion is now that I as scum got rid of SS because he was an easy target... when out of the six lovers who are alive two of them had very blatantly signaled that they would vote me over Bambi with only one saying they would vote Bambi? It would pretty much require me to either flip you/Kerset or convince Bingle and TBone that it was Bambi. Your logic there actually supports me being town, because I enter today with three votes automatically against me if I am scum and decided to shift to SS as opposed to if you are town and I pushed that through... all I would need to do is get SS or Bambi on my side (or have one of them be wrong) and I have won as scum. So do what I did... I need to sway at least two votes, possibly three... or not have changed the wagon and sway one vote at most to win.

[LlamaFluff]

Wait... how do you know who would have died next if you are town who went D1? I had no idea beyond it was going to be up to the VTs, most of us appeared to have not fully formed opinions.

If me/RM die and Tbone/VFP still manage to survive then the game is hopelessly lost

So again... if TBone/VFP are scum... that makes me town then right? Both other VT pool players had voted Bingle/Kerset at some point near the middle to end of D1. Isnt my immediate move upon seeing both of them leaning scum on the VT-Lover pair to not change the wagon away from you? If even one of them went back to voting Bingle/Kerset it would mean scum wins. Doesnt that mean I pretty much *cant* be scum with TBone/VFP, because even if I just stall the game out and you RM/Ana is the deadline default on tiebreaks... scum wins in that case no? Only way scum loses there would be if both VT claims decided to flip who they were calling scum in the lover pairs.

I know its WIFOM, but if I can spend five minutes thinking about and come up with a "If its me-TBone-VFP here was our win and what needed to happen D1" and then do something entirely different from that... it doesnt make sense.

[LlamaFluff]

How would you know what the other 2 VTs would do if me/RM go down and I die screaming that You-VFP-T-Bone are the scum team?

You'd be gambling on one of the two VTs willing to ignore my dying reads and just go along with T-Bone/VFP who just helped you kill one lover pair and help them kill the other lover pair too.

Do you have that firm of a hold on the other two VTs?

Numbers game. You would have to have convinced both of them to flip of their current read. Plus yes if I am scum I think Bambi still probably follows me, especially if I come into the following day backing up what he had been thinking on the first day. Again worst case one of them flips, and scum still wins.

Other way (which did happen) you think I am scum, Kerset is clearly reading me scum over Bambi, and only RM seems to be saying Bambi with TBone/VFP/Bingle as somewhat up in the air. In what world is it best for me to enter D2 with at least one town (two players) showing intent to vote me when all it takes is two town and the game is probably lost.

If I was scum you would be 100% dead here outside of it being Bingle/Kerset. Even then again I need to flip *one* vote, and in that case I can lean on and manipulate reads of dead town. Thats a mild risk to take as scum, two dead town said X, and all I have to do is flip a not even increadably strong read and scum wins. Instead I take a path where I either need to convince all town who hasnt made up their mind that I am scum, or flip town who already thinks I am scum.

It just makes no sense from a logic standpoint, and if you are arguing that I can logic my way out of scenarios as scum when I am in danger, why do I here logic my way into a horrible scenario as scum? I already laid out a few times why it makes no sense and just drives up risk of me dying.

[LlamaFluff]

I am literally the only person in this game who thinks you are scum other than the person you are death-dueling and who you are confirmed scum to.

Saying that this path is harder for you to take than eliminating me/RM is laughable.

Why would you not want to keep RM alive when he's hard-deathtunneling the person you need to eliminate?

Because you are doing the same to me? There is also no reason to believe that trying to move the wagon actually works out like it did. I pretty much threw everything into chaos. With the last minute movement attempt I think pretty much anything was on the table to happen outside of maybe Bingle/Kerset, and even that was not 100% impossible to happen.

If you tell me that if I was scum I can get rid of a pair where the endgame turns into two options who are:

1) The pair both VT claims seems to support as scum
2) The pair the dead Lover pair was confident is scum

And all I need to do is make one of them vote wrong? Im taking that option as opposed to the unknown where I need to correctly gage if people who thought Bambi was scum still would after I drag the wagon over to SS and/or not have town who wasnt taking a strong stance see me as scum.

I would rather be able to work on one player, with little to no variance. If I could have been 100% sure what did happen actually did, it might be a different scenario, but I am a very risk adverse player as scum. Any big move with a lot of question marks needs to be out of desperation, thats not this type of game.

[LlamaFluff]

I want Bambi and Llama to fully justify why they voted us. No quoting themselves, rewriting any and all reasoning in a fresh post.

Because Ana.

They did nothing the entire game really. The closest they came to actually scumhunting was talking about how that they apparently (note this was after I had been calling VV scum) give me the shot to take out a VT, and if I was wrong I go next. That was really bothering me and still actually does, its the only reason I dont 100% buy your two as the town pair. Also their entire attack on me up until I voted for them seemed to be "they are trying to take control of the game like they did as scum".... when you have no meta on both sides, it starts becoming somewhat flawed without additional context, as in again (which Ana still refuses to confirm) how I said bussing is optimal as scum if you feel it wins the game.

Ana did pretty much nothing until under immense pressure to do something or die. What they did do knowing I am town is really suspect as it starts trying to give them free outs if they are wrong. When you couple that with them just trying to befriend Kerset (which mirrors their near absolute lack of content in scum topic last game), it felt very wrong. So yeah. It was pretty much entirely Ana.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

- Can you at least release all topics where all parties have given their consent at this point?

[LlamaFluff]

Because you are doing the same to me? There is also no reason to believe that trying to move the wagon actually works out like it did. I pretty much threw everything into chaos. With the last minute movement attempt I think pretty much anything was on the table to happen outside of maybe Bingle/Kerset, and even that was not 100% impossible to happen.

Are you trying to imply that I have the same level of thread influence as you?

Not what I mean. I mean that if I was scum, I knew I would 100% be getting your vote today after trying to shift the wagon, just as it was likely that RM would still vote Bambi. So arguing that I "lose" a vote on Bambi is countered by that I "gain" a vote on myself if I pushed you two through.

[LlamaFluff]

So llama, who are bambi partners?

Cant see how this matters today.

As stated earlier in one of these games, Wednesday and Thursday are worst days of week for me to get stuff done. Will probably get caught up Friday.

[LlamaFluff]

Cant see how this matters today.

Because you now have 3 viable scumteams from your POV and how you look at said scumteams is probably the most reliable way to read you.

Like... The only answer I get from you and Bambi fighting is which one of you has more charisma/WIM/rhetorical grasp on the situation. That's NAI. Your perspective there is that you want the other person eliminated.

If you work on a solve in the other three, then there's actually AI shit to examine (Like whether a read is made up or genuine) and in the case that we don't lose today it can only be helpful tomorrow.

exactly

Nope. Its now at best WIFOM. Its actually probably detrimental to an extent because a wrong read from me probably loses us the game right here. Scum get ammo, town can get paranoid or somewhat OMGUSy. As stated many times, any tells between VT pool and Lover pool are weak at best outside of maybe today where scum will take a win if they can.

[LlamaFluff]

Nope. Its now at best WIFOM. Its actually probably detrimental to an extent because a wrong read from me probably loses us the game right here. Scum get ammo, town can get paranoid or somewhat OMGUSy. As stated many times, any tells between VT pool and Lover pool are weak at best outside of maybe today where scum will take a win if they can.

Theory chain:

Today the motivation of {LF, Bambi} is to get {Bambi, LF} elimmed, regardless of alignment.
Whichever of {LF, Bambi} is town also has the motivation of being able to find scum in the outside pool.
Whichever of {LF, Bambi} is scum also has the motivation of being able to leave their partners as looking town if they are the elimination today.
Point 2 is a stronger motivation than point 3, as it will always be relevant to that player.
If today does not end in a scumwin, whoever is town in {LF, Bambi} will be the most trusted voice for the rest of the game, and, more importantly, will definitely be able to post.

Why should we not look at the sole aspect of the game where you and Bambi have inherently different motivations? Do you disagree with any of this?

Point one yes
Point four yes
Two and Three are WIFOM unless you are actually trying to say that you feel you can accurately tell the difference between town pushing reads and scum faking a read assuming they are going to die and scum faking a read trying to win it right here. Remember scum have daytalk, they get to coordinate exactly what the Goon does here. Not only all of that but it starts getting into a threat area of what happens if my reads go against town pair reads? Like if I said that "I think its probably X, if not them Y as I am almost 100% sure its not Z" and Z is your top scum pick. If you are town do you think that actually has zero impact on your read of me? Its all WIFOM and its all stuff that scum can very easily manipulate. I need to prove I am town, and I think everyone knows that my reads on anyone else today are pretty much irrelevant. The ones who are probably most worried about them are scum, because if I lock in correctly today, they cant afford to bus.

Its why this setup is actually pretty flawed. Goon and Lover pair have absolutely zero loyalty to each other, and the fact that so many people seem to think otherwise is why scum pretty much was going to win last roll. This time I know that, so am not going to let scum play town the exact way that I was getting ready to last time.

[LlamaFluff]

Two and Three are WIFOM unless you are actually trying to say that you feel you can accurately tell the difference between town pushing reads and scum faking a read assuming they are going to die and scum faking a read trying to win it right here. Remember scum have daytalk, they get to coordinate exactly what the Goon does here. Not only all of that but it starts getting into a threat area of what happens if my reads go against town pair reads? Like if I said that "I think its probably X, if not them Y as I am almost 100% sure its not Z" and Z is your top scum pick. If you are town do you think that actually has zero impact on your read of me? Its all WIFOM and its all stuff that scum can very easily manipulate. I need to prove I am town, and I think everyone knows that my reads on anyone else today are pretty much irrelevant. The ones who are probably most worried about them are scum, because if I lock in correctly today, they cant afford to bus.

Two and three are literally the point of mafia.

Attempting to discern the motivations of other players while some of those other players are genuine and some of those players are not is literally the definition of the genre of game we're playing.

I'm not asking you for "TBone is town." I'm asking you to provide reasoning behind "TBone is town" that I can look at and go "Oh, hey, this makes sense." or "I could see why a town player might think that" or "There's no way anyone actually comes to that conclusion, he's full of shit."

If you need to prove you're town, how are you going to do that without saying things that can, you know, actually be analyzed?

You actually cant read either me or Bambi without first having us tell you who we think is scum outside of our pool, who at least for me at least is probably going to be heavily influenced by the way they act today? Its pointless to look ahead right now. All that going to do is create more noise and potential conflict, which pretty much is all scum needs to win.

If you are so interested in reads, just go back and compare me coming up with pushing things and Bambi doing the same. There is a pretty distinct lack of ever trying to push something from one of us, as one tended to just sheep the other all of D1.

[LlamaFluff]

Again... do I really need to make a case on anyone else when Bambi is just asking players to put me in hammer range to "prove they are town" to an extent where this is them betting the game on Bingle/Kerset being town if Bambi was town. Their entire argument is just badly flawed logic on multiple levels, especially after spending all of D1 pretty much just sheeping what others (me) had to say on everything. I think somewhere in that exceedingly convoluted logic though it shows Ana/RM are probably town though.

[LlamaFluff]

I would *love* for you to explain how as scum I decide to bus Ana/RM out of nowhere entirely unprompted and then decide to completely flip that on SS.

[LlamaFluff]

Two and Three are WIFOM unless you are actually trying to say that you feel you can accurately tell the difference between town pushing reads and scum faking a read assuming they are going to die and scum faking a read trying to win it right here.

This is entire point of this game.

It is the point of the game. Come tomorrow. Today all it will do is add reason for town to vote me because they think I will vote them tomorrow, or scum to use it as an excuse to vote me for the same reason. Should be at least somewhat obvious I think RM/Ana is the most likely town pair. Zero town read on any other lovers except mild on Bingle.

Again, you also are unable to determine motivations between me/Bambi just based on me actually trying to drive wagons and move things and them just... sheeping most of my reads?

[LlamaFluff]

Again, you also are unable to determine motivations between me/Bambi just based on me actually trying to drive wagons and move things and them just... sheeping most of my reads?

You underestimate me.

Dont think I am. I am just saying the "truest" reads are going to come from D1, not us trying to link players to someone we know is scum. I do not believe for a second that if you are town and I come out with a "Kerset tomorrow 100% after Bambi, and then Kerset strongest town read after that" that it doesnt sway your opinion on me. Any good scum can and probably would already be looking at where people are leaning, and seeing what town pair they can manipulate into the wrong vote when the bring out their "scum reads"

Kerset and Bingle: do you think Tbone and VFP are a team with Llama?
Tbone and VFP: same question but with Kerset and Bingle instead.

Llama scum has me at 70% RM/Ana and 30% Bingle / Kerset. So yes, it's still pretty plausible.
If you're scum, I think its just RM/Ana more about 90% and 10% Bingle / Kerset.

That's where I'm at.

Again please explain my D1 actions if its RM/Ana with me. Do I really in a scenario where the top two wagons are town try and get the day to drag on, push a quick wagon on buddies, and when that actually materialized abandon it for SS instead of trying to claim the town credit? Do you really think that if RM/Ana scum died D1 with me as the goon that the game would even be going on right now? Im pretty sure best case for town in that scenario is im trying to convince maybe one more vote onto Bambi who is just a little bit paranoid that I bussed.

[LlamaFluff]

But you just said it yourself. A lim on RMA / Ana scum means scum you will most likely be the second VT lim.
This is why you had.to get out of that and onto the VTs.
But we're just talking possibilities, right?

Does it? Thats pretty much the opposite of what I just said and makes no sense. If that *is* your thought too... it means Bambi basically did exactly what is optimal in your world for scum. Start the bus at a secondary level, suddenly realize its happening, and then jump off to SS. Or am I wrong in that reasoning? As far as I can tell though, the scenario you are describing is what scum-Bambi would want to happen, and exactly what Bambi did.

[LlamaFluff]

Again, I literally said I was ready to switch back and only didn't because Tbone switched over and told VFP to do the same.

So you still read RM/Ana as best scum pick then? Did you read RM/Ana and SS as scum together?

[LlamaFluff]

Mod

- Any chance to get a minor deadline extension due to holiday weekend in US and it being Marathon weekend (and I guess because side hustle stuff is going to be chaos for me this week... have about a 18 hour block of games to watch tomorrow)

[LlamaFluff]

Actually I know a way to fuck over Ration if they're teamed with Llama. I just gotta prove the other 2 aren't his partners.

VOTE: Bambi

Team Bingle/Kerset and team Tbone/VFP, just confirm you guys are on at the same time to show you didn't quick hammer me and therefore aren't partners with Llama.

I'm off to work so I'll unvote myself tomorrow if we're still playing and my gamble pays off.

Now *this* is scum. Its creative sure, but nonsensical as town outside of very few highly specific scenarios that dont apply here. Interesting hail mary play though.

[LlamaFluff]

I am. Just pointing out that if he isnt putting himself at -1 its just theater to try and look town. Not even like if town did this it could actually tell anything.

[LlamaFluff]

Well actually, Bambi town with your lim just means RM and Ana have to be scum.
So it does tell something if town and if you're the lim.

In fact, town Bambi only has to get 1 confirmed town out of Kersel / Bingle and me / T-Bone to 100% win the game if you are the lim today.

They are at -2... it means nothing at all at this point. If they put themselves at -1 it would prove that its me with Ana/RM or Bambi with anyone else. Its pretty clear this means nothing as it stands. The closest it can mean is that I cant be scum with TBone/VFP or Bingle/Kerset if this stands for some time. So I guess thanks for not thinking it through and clearing me?

[LlamaFluff]

That was a mistake. That was a serious mistake.

If this sticks around from an impartial perspective the team can only me

Me+Ana/Rm
Bambi+Ana/RM
Bambi+Kerset/Bingle
Bambi+VFP/TBone

There is zero chance that town-Bambi decides to dance around who to go after between two lover pairs, only to sheep someone D1 who tries to snap wagon the third pair at the last minute, and then listen to that same person when they want to move it onto a VT claim, while at the same time half blaming another lover pair for not moving the wagon back to RM/Ana.

This is scum who just tried to get cute. In what spot does town actually get desperate enough to pull this move off? If anything this is what scum does when they think they are dead and need to make something happen.

[LlamaFluff]

The insane part here is that no one should ever be voting me here. They should be voting Ana/RM because its nearing the point where its physically impossible if Bambi is town for me to be scum without them *first* being scum. And they can be scum with either of us.

Not sure if Bambi just didnt talk this through with the lover pair, they all missed this or what... but its over. If you are going to screw up theory against me you have no chance.

[LlamaFluff]

We lost the chance to lim a pair when we swapped to VTs day 1.
I said this enough.

Nope. There literally is zero chance of me being scum without Ana/RM being scum with what Bambi decided to pull here, even moreso if it stays like this long enough to clear me as town with anyone but Ana/RM.

There is a chance of me being town with Ana/RM as scum.

If you think I am scum, the right vote is now Ana/RM who is confirmed scum in your eyes, even if you are wrong about me it gives us a chance with a lot more information.

Where does that logic fall apart?

The insane part here is that no one should ever be voting me here. They should be voting Ana/RM because its nearing the point where its physically impossible if Bambi is town for me to be scum without them *first* being scum. And they can be scum with either of us.

You say as you don't vote either of them and helped saved them yesterday.

If you were town you'd follow your own logic bro.

Right right right....

As scum I realized my partners were being pushed to the wayside so decided to push for an extended deadline so I could attack them... once they started getting votes instead of pushing the bus all the way I decided to move to attacking SS instead where I would be pushed into a 50/50 the following day instead of riding it out, SS dying almost instantly and needing to convince only one out of all remaining town that you were scum to force the game to a tie.

[LlamaFluff]

Everyone posting is even more obvious that I am town unless with RM/Ana now too. What world is scum talking in the main topic? Scum is going to the PT saying "I will be around X time, what about you?"

Creative attempt, bad result. If you actually clammed up I think scum could have won here.

[LlamaFluff]

Everyone posting is even more obvious that I am town unless with RM/Ana now too. What world is scum talking in the main topic? Scum is going to the PT saying "I will be around X time, what about you?"

Creative attempt, bad result. If you actually clammed up I think scum could have won here.

Yeah I think T-Bone forgot to set him alarm, we planned on hammering 14mins ago.

Please from your standpoint... explain how I am scum with anyone but Ana/RM unless your argument is going to be "Kerset/Bingle just havent been able to coordinate"... Both have been around in the last few hours.

[LlamaFluff]

If bone comes in and instahammers then i will put all the blame on you bambi for not letting us solve. Neither me or bingle declared the definite scum yet.

We lose if you don't trust me over Llama anyway. I'm doing something called Trust. I'd lose anyway if Ration and Ana are town cuz Ration literally never unvotes me if he was town cuz he hates me.

I'm working with what I got
.

Hypnotically do you have any problem voting RM/Ana today?

no right?

[LlamaFluff]

Please from your standpoint... explain how I am scum with anyone but Ana/RM unless your argument is going to be "Kerset/Bingle just havent been able to coordinate"... Both have been around in the last few hours.

I'm not arguing it?
But Kersel and Bingle haven't posted together yet.

I even said that this only makes you 25% chance as scum to Bambi's 75%.
Since you have 1 scum option and Bambi has 3.

Im just making a point. Given what Bambi tried to pull there is a 0% chance I am scum without Ana/RM first being scum. Anyone voting me today is basically scum due to it as they are instead going for 100% scum is going for "maybe scum" because of reasons (aka they might lose)

Bambi is trying to ignore that point right now. Its the miscalculation in their plan, unless they are actually trying to argue that Ana/RM as scum dying makes me look so town that they cant live through it.

@Bambi - If there is a 0% chance I am scum without RM/Ana... why not vote them instead?

[LlamaFluff]

Please from your standpoint... explain how I am scum with anyone but Ana/RM unless your argument is going to be "Kerset/Bingle just havent been able to coordinate"... Both have been around in the last few hours.

I'm not arguing it?
But Kersel and Bingle haven't posted together yet.

I even said that this only makes you 25% chance as scum to Bambi's 75%.
Since you have 1 scum option and Bambi has 3.

Im just making a point. Given what Bambi tried to pull there is a 0% chance I am scum without Ana/RM first being scum. Anyone voting me today is basically scum due to it as they are instead going for 100% scum is going for "maybe scum" because of reasons (aka they might lose)

Bambi is trying to ignore that point right now. Its the miscalculation in their plan, unless they are actually trying to argue that Ana/RM as scum dying makes me look so town that they cant live through it.

@Bambi - If there is a 0% chance I am scum without RM/Ana... why not vote them instead?

Because from your "town" perspective they were your big townread and yet now your suggesting eliming them. If you really thought I was scum from an actual town mindset you wouldn't throw the game going for a team I'm possibly framing with you instead of just actually scum in me.

Your plan literally goes from a hundred percent me being evil from your 'town' perspective to chancing it on a 33% chance when town loses if we go there as well.

You aren't thinking like a townie.

Bzzzt

Try harder

From *my* perspective as town if you are town there is no chance of any other pair also being more likely town than any other town.

From *your* perspective as town if I am scum there is a 100% chance that RM/Ana is scum

From *all other* lover pair perspectives, there is a 100% chance RM/Ana is scum if I am scum

So you are voting me because.... why again?

Thats what I am calling out. There is no reason for you to vote me as town because no matter what happens next to you RM/Ana is scum. If you are scum though, especially if RM/Ana are town, there is all the reason in the world to vote me. Literally your only logic can be that if RM/Ana flips scum that you think you die next.

[LlamaFluff]

I mean... I've been on site most of the day. If I were scum looking to qh I would have paid attention here.

Again I think that makes it obvious there is a 0% chance I am scum unless Ana/RM are scum first. So it turns quickly into today is Bambi or Ana/RM, because Ana/RM doesnt impact who is scum between me and Bambi. If I am scum it suddenly is 100% Ana/RM.

What Bambi is trying to push is a scenario where I could be scum, instead of a scenario where Ana/RM *must* be scum. Unless they are still trying to argue that VFP/Tbone or Bingle/Kerset are scum and just cant organize a hammer, but that also appears to go against their reads.

Even now... their push is clearly on the wrong spot. To Bambi if they can push it onto lovers there would be a 100% chance scum is hit. But they are trying to throw it onto VT pool because.... ?????

????? = Bambi is scum and is a bit desperate.

[LlamaFluff]

Are you literally ignoring your still 100 percent scum to me because you can't counter that point?

Your death solves the entire game man.

Ah. So you are ignoring the 100% Ana/RM scum (per your logic) and instead going for 100% me scum... which is you are scum would win you the game.

Again... this is scum getting a couple of steps ahead of everything else. I really want to read if this was discussed because its such a bad idea. Pretty much ignores a 100% chance RM/Ana has to be confirmed scum to remove Bambi from the pool. Unless Bambi is basically saying attacking that pair is such a strong town tell that they cant afford them being todays pick.

[LlamaFluff]

If I am scum it suddenly is 100% Ana/RM.

I still don't understand your point here.
Should my pair or Bingles pair only consider Ana/RM as scum here?

I don't see anyone directly arguing you as scum with the other pairs, but the argument that they can be scum. This is 100% correct from either side PoV.
But yes, with what is done, and once T-Bone posts we can safely say that scum you is only scum with RM / Ana.

As there is no hammer there are four pairs

Me + Ana/RM
Bambi + Ana/RM
Bambi + Bingle/Kerset
Bambi + VFP/TBone

The point is as there is no hammer there is a 0% chance that I am scum outside of Ana/RM first being scum. Voting for me is somewhere between a game throw and scum claim.

It doesnt matter who is scum with Bambi, but they have proven that if Ana/RM is not scum I am confirmed town.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't think Bingle scum worries about Bambi self voting there as it favours them, so asking for the unvote is town credit.

All I care about right now is that it proves I am town, and my mind is now stuck on if Bambi actually ran this past their partners.

[LlamaFluff]

As there is no hammer there are four pairs

Me + Ana/RM
Bambi + Ana/RM
Bambi + Bingle/Kerset
Bambi + VFP/TBone

The point is as there is no hammer there is a 0% chance that I am scum outside of Ana/RM first being scum. Voting for me is somewhere between a game throw and scum claim.

It doesnt matter who is scum with Bambi, but they have proven that if Ana/RM is not scum I am confirmed town.

Okay. So how do we prove RM/Ana are town without losing the game?
This just means RM and Ana have to both vote Bambi and this all favours you.

Nope. This just proves that the vote is RM/Ana (if you think I am scum - leaves Bambi/Me) or Bambi is scum (If you think I am town - Leaves all of lover pairs).

[LlamaFluff]

This setup is still a complete dumpster fire that I think if town wins more than 30% of the time is impressive, but Bambi just gave me the worst possible thing as scum, pure logic to stave off a town loss. Town now is back around 50/50... if they lurked out I think scum won this one. I break setups. Thats my special talent (even if apparently people have forgotten optimization breaks by reading games) as thats what I like to do.

Nope. This just proves that the vote is RM/Ana (if you think I am scum - leaves Bambi/Me) or Bambi is scum (If you think I am town - Leaves all of lover pairs).

Okay?
But what is the aim here?

I have already said a number of times I agree here.
What is it that I should be doing with the information I just received from Bambi's self vote?

If I think you are scum, why would I vote RM/Ana here?

So you wouldnt vote RM/Ana in a scenario where under the assumption that there is a 100% scenario to you that they are scum... while if I am town its infinitely less because... ????

There is *no* world where I am scum to you if you are town where I exist without RM/Ana being scum. There *is* a scenario where RM/Ana are scum with Bambi. You are trying to solve a If X than Y by saying Y is true so X must be, which is flawed. Its not me or Bambi to you, its Bambi or RM/Ana

[LlamaFluff]

We got people understanding... lets keep this moving. Im hoping scum just didnt read this right and are now lost. Time to apply pressure. RM/Ana at this point basically have me as confirmed town. Lets capitalize and make scum flinch.

[LlamaFluff]

So you wouldnt vote RM/Ana in a scenario where under the assumption that there is a 100% scenario to you that they are scum... while if I am town its infinitely less because... ????

I already saw my mistake and I agree with this.
It means lim you is 50% right
Lim RM / Ana is 75% right

Or something along those lines.

I think the better way is to look at Bambi.

Bambi cant be scum with:

Me (duh)
VFP/Tbone (Game would be over)
Bingle/Kerset (Game would be over)

So Bambi is 100% scum

It just depends with who.

I give all the credit to them for trying a gambit, but when its a logic puzzle... the ex-open queue list mod is a horrible person to play it off against.

[LlamaFluff]

*Cant be town with.

Same process. If Bambi was town Bambi would be dead already unless its RM/Ana... so I turn into the confirmed town. Which I absolutely hate... but why not have a setup I didnt like just spite me because spite.

[LlamaFluff]

I need to think about other pairs... going into today I was around (just spitballing)

50% TBone/VFP
40% Bingle/Kerset
10% Rm/Ana

Will probably lean heavily on others reads because of again what I see as a bad flaw in this setup.

@Bambi - Please explain how I can possibly be town with Ana/RM as town.

[LlamaFluff]

It's 100% from my perspective but not theirs bro. For Bingle I could be with Tbone or vice Versa.

You as town Llama should still not think RM/Ana is 100 tho. Sure as scum this saves you and you can 1v1 me another day, but town you shouldn't be 100 certain I'm not scum with the other lovers. Why would town you be so certain on them?

Again this is right, but I understand what Llama is saying now.
If we vote Llama, we should instead vote RM/Ana.
You should want this too because it is the best way for town to progress. In you're view, it's still right.
If we want to lim you though, it's probably not the best idea.

If Llama is scum, we just vote up their only buddy.
If Llama is town, this view is just town minded and benefits town every time.

Exactly. Unless Bambi is going to abandon their thought process Ana/RM as scum no matter what happens. Im not as good of a player as I used to be, but am still more than capable of destroying someone who overplays their hand.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont love being confirmed town because I do best under a little bit of pressure as "game solving" a known solution is just out arguing a known answer, but if this is going to be how I wake up in this game... and town might actually win this shit show setup... will take it.

[LlamaFluff]

So you wouldnt vote RM/Ana in a scenario where under the assumption that there is a 100% scenario to you that they are scum... while if I am town its infinitely less because... ????

I already saw my mistake and I agree with this.
It means lim you is 50% right
Lim RM / Ana is 75% right

Or something along those lines.

I think the better way is to look at Bambi.

Bambi cant be scum with:

Me (duh)
VFP/Tbone (Game would be over)
Bingle/Kerset (Game would be over)

So Bambi is 100% scum

It just depends with who.

I give all the credit to them for trying a gambit, but when its a logic puzzle... the ex-open queue list mod is a horrible person to play it off against.

I'm confused what you said. Why can't Bambi be Scum with VFP's pair or Bingle's pair?

What are you saying?

They can be. I cant be as game isnt over, if I was scum with any other pair Bambi is already dead. Only way thats wrong is if VFP/TBone or Bingle/Kerset havent been able to coordinate a hammer. The only way *I* can be scum is if *you* are scum first. So anyone who wants to vote me, should vote you.

Bambi can be scum with any pair
I can only be scum with RM/Ana

Due to that, any vote for me is inherently flawed as it ignores a "must be scum" for "could be scum"

[LlamaFluff]

Bambi continues to fail to explain how I can be scum with VFP/Tbone or Bingle/Kerset... probably because it hastens their death but... still

[LlamaFluff]

Pretty much everyone right now needs to be voting for Bambi (best option by far) or the RM/Ana pair. Nothing else exists as a reasonable scenario.

[LlamaFluff]

@RM - Are you able to convince Ana better in your PT right now? Let me know so I can put effort as needed.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm explaining why town you doesn't make this play so quickly. This is for later if we actually decide to indulge killingRM and ana first.

Lets pretend you are town... three spots exist

1) RM/Ana are scum - You cant be hammered, you are alive
2) Kerset/Bingle are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it
3) VFP/TBone are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it

Why is this 2 or 3 again? When all four players have posted?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm explaining why town you doesn't make this play so quickly. This is for later if we actually decide to indulge killingRM and ana first.

Lets pretend you are town... three spots exist

1) RM/Ana are scum - You cant be hammered, you are alive
2) Kerset/Bingle are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it
3) VFP/TBone are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it

Why is this 2 or 3 again? When all four players have posted?

I mean, the correct answer is Bambi is scum. But... yeah thats just blatant and not fun to even have to prove. No chance Bambi is scum without RM/Ana scum first. Special talent mode activated.

[LlamaFluff]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

So why is it me or Bambi for you? Isnt it actually Bambi v RM/Ana?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm explaining why town you doesn't make this play so quickly. This is for later if we actually decide to indulge killingRM and ana first.

Lets pretend you are town... three spots exist

1) RM/Ana are scum - You cant be hammered, you are alive
2) Kerset/Bingle are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it
3) VFP/TBone are scum - You can be hammered, they havent done it

Why is this 2 or 3 again? When all four players have posted?

Odds are in your favor but effort is in mine. I made it possible with my play and bet the game on it being RM Ana and you. I'll keep going until we lose or win.

So you agree and still wont vote RM/Ana?

Cool. Simple win is still a win. Bambi essentially entering confirmed scum range as they are now saying... I am scum and RM/Ana is scum but I have to be first target even though I can only be scum if RM/Ana is first. If you got told this by a partner blame them, they probably lost the game right here.

@RM - Are you able to convince Ana better in your PT right now? Let me know so I can put effort as needed.

What? Is this a joke?

Quick "If screw up easy win" trap

[LlamaFluff]

I already said I'll indulge you if the others agree first. It was my post before that one. I assumed you could read.

Also going off for a bit be back later.

I can read (maybe) but you are dead here. From what you are claiming there is still zero chance I am scum unless Ana/RM is scum first. Its you or them as scum dying here. Thats the only options. No clue how we got this lucky, but im not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[LlamaFluff]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

So why is it me or Bambi for you? Isnt it actually Bambi v RM/Ana?

Like this right here is manipulate as fuck. No it's not Bambi vs RM/Ana.

How is Bambi alive right now if the scum team contains myself but not RM/Ana? The only answer would be that scum actually just hasnt been able to coordinate a hammer, but everyone has been posting so... the more logical conclusion is just that Bambi either is scum or scum *cant* hammer town Bambi

There are four potential pairs that fit this gamestate. Every pair that contains me also contains RM/Ana. Not every pair that contains RM/Ana contains myself. While it likely ends in the same spot either way, voting me is reckless because it loses the game in three different scenarios. Unless from your spot you are actively arguing that its me + Bingle/Kerset, the better vote is RM/Ana over me because you can be wrong about me and the game would continue.

Pretty much from everyone elses perspective:

Some of the pairings that contain RM/Ana contain Llama
All of the pairings that contain Llama contain RM/Ana

If you are going to make a vote based on that, how am I the vote again?

[LlamaFluff]

If we don't do VT now then we need to do it tomorrow anyway. Game-wise it doesn't matter.

Not if you think its me

Again there are four possible pairs unless someone really wants to argue that in a game where everyone is active scum were unable to hammer:

Me + Ana/RM
Bambi + Ana/RM
Bambi + Kerset/Bingle
Bambi + VFP/TBone

Its entirely nonsensical to vote me today based on that logic. Its vote Bambi (who if is scum game continues, if town game is over) or if you think its me... vote Ana/RM (if town Bambi wins as its established I cant be scum unless they are, if scum game continues *regardless* of who is scum). Voting me is just a logically flawed move because if you are town you pretty much throwing a certain level of win chance.

I dont think its that Bambi doesnt realize this here, its that they cant *afford* to realize it here which is sort of where they are at. They seem to acknowledge the logic, but cant/wont follow through on it. Anyone who is voting me needs to very clearly explain how those four pairs and saying I am a better vote than Ana/RM makes sense.

[LlamaFluff]

Fuck Logic Get Scum.

Ana went AFK, Ration has been spewing nonsense since day 1 and poorly tried to get the other lovers, and Llama won't even follow his own words by voting them. He's delaying it so he can make a case of it being RM/Ana/Me after we kill them. Giving him a better chance to get me elimed isn't what we need here.

Edit: oh now it's all in. Wonderful.

See this is why Bambi is scum. If they are town there is *no* difference to them specifically between voting me or Ana/RM as they apparently confirmed scum, so no difference. Bambi also ignores that to anyone else, this also is true but the VT isnt solved, so Ana/RM would be a better vote to anyone in lover pairs that think I am scum as it provides a safety net that doesnt end the game today. They just ignore it because... its convenient.

Also im not saying its Bambi + RM/Ana. I am saying there is no way it can be anyone but RM/Ana if I am scum. Im still not really confident who is scum with Bambi here. This is just scum panic who I think missed the fact that by self-voting they confirmed I can only be scum with RM/Ana and that makes then the target over me.

[LlamaFluff]

And there is the proof its not me with Bingle/Kerset.

[LlamaFluff]

Keep in mind that llama would ask for bus and RM would never agree to do other person plan.

To be blunt... outside of abandoning the D1 bus all of it is well within the range of possibilities for me scum with them. Thats the only part that really wouldnt make sense. Thats a see it through or dont do it spot.

I think its still just a matter of time before its pretty clear only way I can be scum is if Ana/RM are first proven scum, which Bambi is just very hesitant to accept for some reason given how confident she seems to be in that being true

[LlamaFluff]

You clearly haven't voted them for how much you want others to do it man. I've said time and time again if the TOWN does it I'll do it.

You are misrepresenting what I am saying.

This is an "All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squirrels" scenario. From all the viewpoints that are *not* ours there are four pairs that work logically and only five that are remotely possible by any way shape or form. For me to be scum, RM/Ana first have to be scum, and they also can be scum with you. Therefore, to everyone again that is *not* us, voting me makes no sense over voting RM/Ana, because there is a scenario where RM/Ana is scum without me being scum. However there is *no* scenario where I am scum without RM/Ana being scum.

I am not calling RM/Ana town or scum here. I am pointing out that its a logical fallacy to ever vote me in this spot because it risks losing the game. Even if you think I am scum, especially again from everyone who is *not* us, I am the wrong vote as what is the worst case scenario there? We enter D3 with four confirmed town. If RM/Ana is town we lose the game no matter what of them or me you vote. If they are scum, we actually still have win chances.

Literally the only pair who can argue that I might be an acceptable vote would be Bingle/Kerset who could argue TBone/VFP are scum (who have been able to coordinate a hammer of you for about what... 35 of the last 36 hours?). TBone/VFP already have it fully proven to them if they are town that if I am scum, Bingle/Kerset are confirmed town so it *must* be with Ana/RM

[LlamaFluff]

Fuck Logic Get Scum.

Ana went AFK, Ration has been spewing nonsense since day 1 and poorly tried to get the other lovers, and Llama won't even follow his own words by voting them. He's delaying it so he can make a case of it being RM/Ana/Me after we kill them. Giving him a better chance to get me elimed isn't what we need here.

Edit: oh now it's all in. Wonderful.

See this is why Bambi is scum. If they are town there is *no* difference to them specifically between voting me or Ana/RM as they apparently confirmed scum, so no difference. Bambi also ignores that to anyone else, this also is true but the VT isnt solved, so Ana/RM would be a better vote to anyone in lover pairs that think I am scum as it provides a safety net that doesnt end the game today. They just ignore it because... its convenient.

Also im not saying its Bambi + RM/Ana. I am saying there is no way it can be anyone but RM/Ana if I am scum. Im still not really confident who is scum with Bambi here. This is just scum panic who I think missed the fact that by self-voting they confirmed I can only be scum with RM/Ana and that makes then the target over me.

I agree to everything in this post. Except that because I know I am Town, I know 'better vote' is a lie, however I fully agree to the logic supplied and would support voting me and Ana over you if I was in anyone's shoes, since Bambi has enabled that new dynamic and so did I thanks to not unvoting her. I knew only Scum will pull that kind of gambit there and I have had scum vibes from Bambi all game.

Obviously you wont agree with voting you, but its just pointing out why Bambi has to be scum. To you and Ana, Bambi is scum. To TBone and VFP, Bambi is scum. Literally they are already dead. Its just now a "when" not "if" question. Just a logic failure as to why I should be voted today. Sure its somewhat self-preservation, but it also is a tell. Its just a waiting game at this point and then I have to figure stuff out tomorrow which I dont like, but have to do.

Also squirrel = square... I feed the squirrels where I live and had just done that. My computer faces a window and I love watching them hang out and eat. My spirit animal.

[LlamaFluff]

Its a username that I have been using for.... probably 15+ years (I am old - that was a high school thing). But yeah llama + Romeo allegory lion avatar + podcast nickname fun times.

[LlamaFluff]

@TBone - Please explain how if you are town it can be anything but me+Ana/RM as scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Explain why if I think you're scum I should vote for RM instead?

Think that has been explained more than once.

If you are town its physically impossible for me to be scum with you, or me to be scum with Bingle/Kerset at this point (game would be over). Therefore it is 100% confirmed that if you are town, it is Ana/RM+Bambi, or Me+RM/Ana. Where am I wrong about that? It means that I actually *cant* be scum without RM/Ana scum first.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama fuck you with this game why don't you want Bambi eliminated?

I. Do. I am voting her.

What I am taking exception over is that there is no scenario where I should ever get a vote over you and Ana. Its actually impossible at this point where I can be scum without you and Ana being scum. I am proving that I am town due to the way votes are cast. I dont love throwing who I think is probably town under the bus, but there is no way that I can actually be scum unless you are proven so first, so I am going to destroy bad arguments that ignore that fact.

[LlamaFluff]

Because Kerset and Bingle didn't hammer, right? So they must be town. But this logic still breaks down because it relies on Bambi being scum. Now, she can be, of course. But you can't have it both ways. These are two independent instances that contradict one another.

Are you actually scum and I have to listen to RM gloat about it being Bambi+Tbone/VFP...

Again, explain how I am scum and its not Ana/RM too. If it was you/VFP game is over. Bingle/Kerset is proven not true already as a partner. If I am scum, there is zero chance it is not with Ana/RM. ZERO. I agree that Bingle/Kerset is town. So to make me scum, it means its with you (to you its a lie) or with Ana/RM. So the vote is Ana/RM. Yes? Is there any world where I am scum without Ana/RM?

I will *not* move my vote because to me, its 100% Bambi. I dont know who its with, but I know its 100% them, and even more I can prove that I cant be scum without RM/Ana first being proved scum. So why would I ever vote Rm/Ana here? I am just shining light on for any lover pair its dumb to vote me because logic.

[LlamaFluff]

But Ana is parked on Llama. Oy!

VFP what do you think, purposeful dissonance between RM and Ana, or does this point back to Kerset/Bingle?

Did you miss the fact where again I would be dead as town and game is over if its Kerset/Bingle?

You are better than that. Its the only physically impossible pairing.

[LlamaFluff]

Wrong way around.... but 100% I cant be scum with Kerset/Bingle yes? Bambi was at -1 and they didnt hammer. So that is actually impossible. If Kerset/Bingle are scum, I am 100% confirmed town yes? Which means to you, the only pairing I can actually be scum with turns into RM/Ana... yes?

[LlamaFluff]

You just said that you'd be dead if Kerset and Bingle are scum, and then you make an argument that makes them not scum with Bambi (and makes Bambi either not scum or scum with RM/Ana). It doesn't do anything to relieve you of your pairings though. It's almost like you're trying to take Bambi's town case and apply it to yourself.

Little drunk... but stop me where I am wrong

1) If the team is me+Bingle/Kerset scum would have already won (lack of Bambi hammer)
2) Team is not me + You/VFP
3) Only team where I am scum is me + Ana/RM
4) RM/Ana can be scum with me or Bambi

[LlamaFluff]

You just said that you'd be dead if Kerset and Bingle are scum, and then you make an argument that makes them not scum with Bambi (and makes Bambi either not scum or scum with RM/Ana). It doesn't do anything to relieve you of your pairings though. It's almost like you're trying to take Bambi's town case and apply it to yourself.

Little drunk... but stop me where I am wrong

1) If the team is me+Bingle/Kerset scum would have already won (lack of Bambi hammer)
2) Team is not me + You/VFP
3) Only team where I am scum is me + Ana/RM
4) RM/Ana can be scum with me or Bambi

Only 2 and 4 are true. I'm not going to read Kerset/Bingle for something they didn't do.

Wait... you are claiming that Me + Bingle/Kerset didnt hammer Bambi at -1?

VOTE: Bambi

I think that this is wrong choice.

Isnt this Kerset not hammering a -1 Bambi?

[LlamaFluff]

That happened a full 10 posts after Bambi switched her vote back to you so that's proof of nothing.

But both posted before the Bambi switch?

Lets break it down my time:

12:59: Bambi puts themselves at -2
1:02: Kerset posts
1:29: Bingle posts
8:52 (next day) Bambi unvotes

You think that Kerset-Bingle are scum with me and didnt win?

[LlamaFluff]

Like, that chain events would point strongly to a Bambi/Kerset/Bingle scum team....but you want me to not consider that either?? What? Makes no sense if you're town.

Nope. I am saying its Bambi + ??? the who with is unknown. You actually think that Bambi can put themselves at -2 for almost 24 hours and if I am scum cant figure out a hammer?

[LlamaFluff]

Either way.... now just a matter of time before its proven I have to be town outside of it being RM/Ana. Fun times. Now its early stages of trying to solve who lover pair is.

[LlamaFluff]

Cute. How am I scum with Bingle/Kerset again?

[LlamaFluff]

So still yes then.... it has to be me + Ana/RM to you?

[LlamaFluff]

VC 2.13

With 8 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Bambi Jay (3)

- LlamaFluff, RationalMadman, Bambi Jay

LlamaFluff (1)

- Anastasia

Note voting - T-Bone, Kerset, Bingle, VFP

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-02 16:00:00)

We could have hammered at this point of time. We cant be scum with llama. Still, it doesn't mean that llama is town.

Yep. As repeatedly stated, especially as the game continues to not have ended, I can *only* be scum with Ana/RM at this point. If I was scum with anyone else Bambi would already be dead and scum would have won. Four possible pairings exist.

[LlamaFluff]

Information dump... but can anyone poke holes in this list of who are the only scum chances for each pairing:

Bambi
-Me + RM/Ana

Me
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + TBone/VFP
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

RM/Ana
-Bambi + TBone/VFP
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

TBone/VFP
-Me + RM/Ana
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + Bingle/Kerset

Bingle/Kerset
-Me + RM/Ana
-Bambi + RM/Ana
-Bambi + VFP/TBone

Which again leads to as much as some people refuse to admit it: Today is targeting Bambi or the Ana/RM pair... right? Want to hear TBone really argue that its better for him to vote me instead of voting a pair that I cant be scum without them first being scum, but also could be scum with Bambi just as easily. That sort of logic is putting the cart before the horse. Or saying that because all squares are rectangles that all rectangles have to be squirrels.

[LlamaFluff]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

[LlamaFluff]

Really its interesting. Not a single person can logically argue that I am scum without RM/Ana first being proven scum... which I still lean away from being the truth. Yet RM/Ana + Bambi makes sense for everyone but those three players. See this is when I start loving open games, when I can break them and logic the setup into submission. Its like the massclaim strategy for C9++/JK9++ that kneecaps scum chances of trying to get creative, you just have to use everything to your advantage. And now... I can start bending things to prove that worst case, scum logically cant target me... if RM/Ana are town literally ever target me... this is my element.

I don't think you understand. This situation isn't superior just because you will live. Ana and I are Town, do you actually understand this is just as bad? If me and Ana are voted off we lose.

You arent quite looking at this from my stance... but for you two to die literally every single player apart from the two of you and me need to vote you. I pretty much get to block that wagon and fully intend to do so. Although it *is* from my stance possible for you and Ana to be scum. Like it or not while I am proven town to you, you are not completely proven town to me even if I think its unlikely at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

So your in favor of taking out Ration and Ana Bingle because... Well ignoring from my perspective he's scum telling town what to do, so we can have another week to look over the evidence and having me and Llama arguing nonstop again?

I'm just confirming this is mostly the mindset your doing this with.

Nope. I dont want them dead.

From a pure neutral persepctive though, they should die over me. If I am scum, they 100% must be scum. If they are scum, I dont have to be scum. All rectangles are not squirrels.

Please. Present me a scenario where I am scum without those two being confirmed scum.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Thats literally what I am saying... I dont know for sure if RM/Ana are scum. I do know that Bambi is scum. And I do have some other reads, but its physically impossible for me to be scum if RM/Ana are town. Are you that afraid of me, that in a scenario where I am scum with RM/Ana that I can talk my way out of it, that you would actually vote me first *knowing* that a confirmed alignment wouldnt change anything? Unless you are actually saying that you are fully willing to risk the entire game on it being me + RM/Ana right here, voting them is wrong. Worst case its worth it to vote them first as unless its me + TBone/VFP we can actually prove that it has to be me + RM/Ana or any other scenario.

I ain't going from that perspective bro. An elim on you wins us the game nearly instantly since we'd know your partners so I can sign up for another game in peace. Arguing with it for a week after getting them won't be as fun because you'll get like 100 statements to try and turn them to your side, while I'm gonna basically be going "please believe me" and shit. I know your mostly smarter then me so fighting you in an argument won't help town win if I give you a week.

Cool... so Bambi has entered the "because I am scared" mode of why to vote me. Pretty sure just creating a me + Ana/RM survivor pool wins this one. Scum is shook... that Bambi move massively backfired.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

Can you clarify? Are you presenting RM/Ana as town in this scenario? Only because a town flip anywhere immediately loses us the game, so there is no tomorrow were we to ignore the VTs and flip a lovers pair. I just want to be able to follow your thought process here.

Can you present the scenario where I am scum but RM/Ana are town?

[LlamaFluff]

I dont re call seeing Llama saying that RM / Ana are scum though.
Only that it benefits town to lim them over Llama. Which it does.

I think either what Llama is saying is still being mis understood, or just manipulated into looking like something else.
Do you not agree that from a town side, the lim should be in Ana / RM over Llama?
This is not from what you know, but from what the pairs know. We know that Llama is only scum with Ana / RM.
From towns View in the lovers there's a 50% chance that scum you is paired with RM / Ana.

If I thought it was Llama, RM, and Ana but its actually you RM, and Ana then a lim on Llama is a loss while a lim on RM / Ana is still potential to win.
Even if it is just Llama, RM, and Ana then it takes 2 days to lim regardless of the order.

There's no benefit to vote Llama today, and even if I think scum I won't be doing so.

[LlamaFluff]

I also think Llama is the solve, since Llama tried to lie about Bingle's vote to town clear himself. Town doesn't need to make stuff up in an attempt to clear themselves. Re-read and tell me what you think VFP.

Again. And still. How am I scum without proving Ana/RM as scum first?

[LlamaFluff]

Also, Llama I really do want you to ask why you aren't even trying to defend yourself anymore. Your just going "well if you think it's me just get those 2 then". Like. In what world does a townie sound like that by telling people "well you gotta elim them to PROVE it's me". Your not arguing your Innocence your arguing we can't prove your guilty.

That can work in the court of law but it doesn't work here.

In case y'all missed it the first time. Particularly with the post above as proof.

Ahhh... so its a *scum* tell to say that you cant prove that I am scum unless player X is scum first. As town here apparently I should ignore that? Its a null tell. But if you want to prove you are scum by your best argument being harping on a null tell... more power to you.

[LlamaFluff]

I mean my post isn't to convince you pal.

Mine isnt either. Its just to prove your point has no logical standing. There are *zero* scenarios where I am scum if RM/Ana are town. Unless you suddenly are going to present one. Squirrels before rectangles.

[LlamaFluff]

Again with Logic. Who needs something shitty like that? Emotion is better all the time. You'll actually get stuff done with it.

You can keep your logic, I got charisma and jokes and honesty.

This is scum rolling over and dying. They actually cant present a situation where what I am claiming is real. You actually played really well, but regardless of alignment and anyone elses you probably should have fought the wagon shift to SS.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyways. We are at a spot where I cant be scum without RM/Ana being scum. Bambi is in a spot where it has to be RM/Ana+Me. Bambi refuses to vote RM/Ana. Bambi is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

We're in a point where Llama is continuously trying to tell town to vote out his scum partners without actually voting them himself. Llama is scum.

Nope. We are in a spot where I am 100% sure that you are scum and not sure of anything else
We are also in a spot where all players apart from me know I cant be scum without RM/Ana first being scum.
You apparently refuse to vote RM/Ana because *reasons* despite it to you being 100% confirmed they are scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Again for anyone who actually is thinking of voting me... how is that a town mindset? Even more so again how am I scum when I can 100% prove that X must be true for Y to be true. Its a physical impossibility for me to be scum if Ana/RM arent first confirmed scum. There is no logical scenario where I am the vote unless you want to say I am such a good player that RM/Ana flipping scum (which makes me look bad) means I can get Bambi ran up easier to such a point that you cant risk voting RM/Ana first. Basically its just dumb. Bambi is deflecting from this scenario because its their only play.

[LlamaFluff]

Bambi themselves isnt even contradicting that it must be RM/Ana if I am scum... yet they wont actually act in a way that supports that being true. They are scum here. They actually played really well, but have hit the end of the road as there is no chance of them getting out of this one as they got trapped... and now I basically get a 2 in 3 chance of winning.

Literally the only reason they wont vote RM/Ana is "game will last longer"... town would look at it and go "they are 100% confirmed scum" its over.

[LlamaFluff]

If to you its 100% me + Ana/RM why do you outright refuse to vote RM/Ana when to everyone else in this game RM/Ana have to be scum before I can be confirmed scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Yet I am *not* confirmed scum to anyone else. However if RM/Ana is not scum, I am confirmed town to everyone else. RM/Ana is a spot that anyone can agree with voting apart from them. I actually cant be scum without them being scum. Not sure how this is a difficult concept to grasp. It physically impossible for me to be scum unless RM/Ana is scum *first*, thats why I am town, scum cant deal with targeting RM/Ana first.

[LlamaFluff]

Bambi should vote RM/Ana, but Llama wouldn't because he knows 100% Bambi is scum, but that's not allowed to be true for Bambi for *reasons*.

Are you trying to not understand?

There is zero percent chance that to me Bambi cant be scum. No matter who is their partner
There is a 100% percent chance that RM/Ana is scum to Bambi, if Bambi is town.
There is a 100% percent chance that RM/Ana is scum, if I am scum, to TBone/VFP/Bingle/Kerset
There is a less than 100% percent chance that I am scum if RM/Ana is scum.

[LlamaFluff]

@llama
Unless you start to think further then for one day. *mind blow* Game-wise it doesn't matter, because tomorrow we need to vote the other option anyway. It is still 50/50 between two VT. You can bend logic all you want but in the end, you only delay the inevitable choice.

I know what do you hope for. You are trying to buy some time and hope that after RM/Ana, you will somehow convince *team llama scum* to get bambi. You think that you figured out 200IQ tactic, which wins you the game, because of the VT ruleset. There is no reason for town!llama to fight for this delay, because town!llama shouldn't be sure whenever RM/Ana is the scum team.

There are only 2days left and you are not trying to figure out the scum team at all. Scum!Bambi could be still teamed with everyone, why are you not afraid that i could be scum here? Maybe Tbone is? If you only convince us to vote RM/Ana there should be a major risk for you to lose. You are not afraid at all, because you know that the solve is RM/Ana.

And Kerset put it in way better words then I ever could. Why give scum a chance to turn it around?

Plus you STILL haven't given a team with me with only a day left. You ain't solving shit.

I dont need to. I have a few more days to figure it out. Today I just can prove you are scum and then we move on from there as I really am not too sure who is scum, as I have a town and scum read in pretty much every pair.

Its pretty much just a scenario where I have broken it in a certain way. Scum *cant* admit to it though. I just need to make sure that things dont go sideways today, and then figure out how to make it work tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

Right now there are only 3 possibilities
Bambi / Bingle / Kerset
Bamni / RM / Ana
Llama / RM / Ana

It must be agreed that at the very least we lim RM / Ana over Llama?

From each group as well. Scum can only be
RM/Ana - Bambi /Kerset /Bingle
Bingle/Kerset - Llama / RM / Ana or Bambi / RM / Ana
Llama - Bambi / RM /Ana or Bambi / Bingle / Kerset
Bambi - Llama / RM / Ana

This

[LlamaFluff]

That... Is that giving up or is my scumread on him making me misinterpret the above post?

8 hours until doomsday and Llama hasn't showed up today either. I dunno what that's about.

Project caught fire at work as during installation we found out our pothole information on pipes was bad, had a few emergency calls and needed to get a revised few sheets out ASAP to not stall the project which is already behind for other reasons, so no chance to do anything else. Fun day.

@TBone - Can you walk me through end of D1 if I am scum with RM/Ana? Do you really think in a situation where both other lover pairs were something that even just stalling would likely eliminate over them, I try to bus, then panic and instead direct the wagon back to my pool?

Also still very clearly not lying about me having been a horrible vote for a long period of time... and even if your agument was that I was lying... everything I said is actually still proven true. I cant be scum without RM/Ana scum. RM/Ana can be scum with Bambi. Bambi can be scum with Bingle/Kerset (and is). In that scenario you *never* vote Bingle, Kerset or me. Its just an outright fallacy. You vote RM/Ana or Bambi... as you can be wrong about a partner but worst case enter the next day with confirmed town to everyone. The only "risk" is what scum is spouting about how that somehow RM/Ana flipping scum decreases towns chance to win.

[LlamaFluff]

Please flipflop to me as I'm not voting Bambi I believe she is town.

Ah... so we are entering the world where out of nowhere I decide to bus RM/Ana at the end of day one, and then instead of taking all the credit for it going through decide to just panic move the wagon to SS. Which is also the world where Bambi-town is so convinced that RM/Ana is scum with me that as town they put themselves in a spot where they lose if that read is wrong... yet pretty much refuses to vote RM/Ana today?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama STILL hasn't solved any damn lovers or done anything besides throw the blame at me.

5 of us actually tried to solve the game today. 4 of those 5 are voting Ration because Llama used stupid logic to make us ignore blatantly scummy behavior.

I'm literally staying up just to try and convince you VFP why your making a mistake. The deadline for my timezone ends at 3 in the morning.

What more do we gotta say to convince you?

I dont need to solve. You die today. Bingle/Kerset die tomorrow. If game isnt over RM/Ana die. TBone/VFP confirmed town.

Forced win. Solved.

Next.

[LlamaFluff]

God your acting like a smug rich teenager with a very punchable face right now Llama.

I dont need to solve the game in your way. Your little ploy solved the game for me. As long as you die here, it actually wins the game straight up. My objective is to not die today, granted that NAI, but thats my goal because it has slowly shifted to me having a 2/3 chance of winning... it moved to 100% chance of town winning. Going beyond that is just a risk of being wrong which impacts D2 reads. Its a safety move, but its the right move.

[LlamaFluff]

I've never seen a town player allergic to legitimately giving out reads. It's almost impressive how you don't wanna give AI content in the last moments VFP can make a choice.

At this point there is pretty much no AI reads I can give. The game is solved for me. There is no difference between me being scum faking a case and me being town presenting the same case. I know the solve, if scum I know how I can present the "solve"... its either me acting as town or scum knowing 100% what I must present.

Closest thing recently there is just comes down to you if you are town randomly deciding to make a move that proves the only way I could ever be scum is with RM/Ana and then you absolutely having to be dragged kicking and screaming across the line to actually vote them. That makes zero sense unless apart from you having "game solved" it you are so afraid of how much town cred (?) it gives me if RM/Ana flips scum that you die D3?

[LlamaFluff]

Your the one who suggested sacrificing them in the first place. I didn't and shouldn't listen to a damn scum suggestion that wasted like 3 days and now we lose cuz you convinced one townie I'm worse then you.

We are literally here until you wake up VFP plz reconsider.

No... I just proved that there is zero reason to vote me instead of them. I didnt "sacrifice" them. They arent even my pick for scum with you, but if I am wrong about Bingle/Kerset, they are confirmed town... so regardless of alignment, its in my best interest for them to die over me because otherwise its 100% chance we lose.

[LlamaFluff]

Still interested in how TBone/VFP think that Bambi risking the game on it having to me me + RM/Ana and then me having to repeatedly prove to them that they should have not only no problem but *should* vote RM/Ana over and even then it only taking others moving there first is something town does.

[LlamaFluff]

If your repeating that argument the ninth God dam time I'll repeat mine. Scum is scum. Logic doesn't care if your evil or good. You are evil and eliming you ended the game faster. It's my fault I guess for wanting that but now that town will lose because of it and because of a possible plurality ruling...

You couldn't even convince people to elim me the normal way. Honestly I won't say you didn't have real stuff today cuz that's not true, but I feel you used the one deadline extension we had on the less important day so the mod wouldn't be able to extend the endgame of today. That extension earlier also led to Smart dying.

I'm still trying to stay up now for 2 and a half hours. My brain will hurt.

Again... Bambi response is not "I did X because Y" its "Well you are scum" and even trying to cast blame about me asking for an extension D1 (when I did the exact same D2). I probably got about another hour or so left in me just checking in between a few more FM saves in my somewhat of fallen giant Austria side save im starting... but yeah. That response actually ignored the logical inconsistencies in their thinking. Still and again. Its pretty much down to VFP here as the game is now kingmaker.

[LlamaFluff]

And thats probably scum wins...