Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

[Disaster Cartel]

but if I were a gambling mena (and I am) I would put good money down that ur not gonna vote urself today

[Disaster Cartel]

I strongly believe infinity is scum, and am planning on voting her today. I will consider voting notsci as well

literally 4 pages ago

[Disaster Cartel]

like she literally said that she was entertaining both you and notsci (who you're meant to think is scum) at the start of today

and instead of trying to get her to do that which then gives like, ~reasonable~ chances of winning from your PoV

you're acting like this is a foregone conclusion and there's no point and oh woe is me I've made so many mistakes and saying that you'll vote yourself (?!?) which is literally just gamethrowing if you're town

[Disaster Cartel]

I just don't see how this makes any sense from your PoV in a world where you're town but I think scum!you feeling that your goose is cooked and deciding to just go the path of least resistance (what ur doing rn) while probably letting your buddy bus u makes a lot of sense as the only way for you to have a shot of winning tomo

[Disaster Cartel]

hmm

[Disaster Cartel]

I feel like the way this is playing out makes it clear one of DC/mom is town and the other is scum, if you think I'm scum with mom no hard feelings but this is an important decision.

I for one would love to hear more about how despite it being "one of mom/DC" scum yesterday while u wanted me it's now "DC is scum anyway"

[Disaster Cartel]

like I don't think you're actually trying to solve the game infinity

I think you just have very limited options and are adjusting based on what you think is theoretically possible

[Disaster Cartel]

I am not terribly worried about getting in DC's way even if he is town here.

okay but when u come back next time can u explain what u mean here

[Disaster Cartel]

I can't see a viable third partner for DC/mom

okay but you also have posts like this which make it sound a lot like that that's not you just referring to how you think cakez should be seeing the game, but that it's also your perspective that only one of me/mom is scum

and then there's also your complete flipflop on skitt from skitt!town to skitt!scum for pushing mom and defending me from being limmed yesterday only to... completely jettison your (VFT, DC) theory from yesterday and to go so far as to say you'd vote yourself if that's what skitt wants

like that doesn't make any sense to me as a progression

[Disaster Cartel]

I can't see a viable third partner for DC/mom

okay but you also have posts like this which make it sound a lot like that that's not you just referring to how you think cakez should be seeing the game, but that it's also your perspective that only one of me/mom is scum

and then there's also your complete flipflop on skitt from skitt!town to skitt!scum for pushing mom and defending me from being limmed yesterday only to... completely jettison your (VFT, DC) theory from yesterday and to go so far as to say you'd vote yourself if that's what skitt wants

like that doesn't make any sense to me as a progression

The way I make sense of the game in the late game is a very team-focused perspective. The way I saw it, yesterday the most likely possibilities were:

1. 1 3 scum in {notsci, bork, you, VFT}, most likely you, bork, VFT
2. 2 You/mom/x
3. 3 Many other possibilities could go here and I wasn't sure which was most likely. I was hoping someone else would propose a different solve, but I couldn't see one. However, all these possibilities combined were probably more likely than #2.

For obvious reasons mom flipping scum made #1 impossible and #2 more likely. I still can't think of a third option that makes a lot of sense (still open to possibilities here). To me, skitt is basically confirmed town because strongarming a bus when mom was not getting limmed otherwise seems insane to me. It's more likely if you're also scum, yes, but it's still unlikely. 4 I also thought your interactions with lilith early on were unlikely to be scum theater, which I considered yesterday but it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence. Now it is.

For the record my posting was not to push Infinity

Part of why I feel like she feels so overwhelmed regardless of alignment is noones done shit to try and kill anyone but her today and yeah we just opened but all anyone’s done re me is mild sus

A case would help

That's part of it, yes, but a bigger part is that you're the biggest other option and I don't actually believe you're scum atm. A convincing case on you could help, sure, but I don't believe you've played like scum this game even if you are. 5 My heart just isn't in pushing you, and 6 going against consensus to push someone else when I feel like I'm so likely to be wrong again is not really something I'm interested in doing right now. Another part of it is that I can't argue against people scumreading me for consistently pushing town over scum, and 7 being pushed for that when I'm already so upset with myself over it is pretty unpleasant. Obviously that's kinda just part of the game but it's certainly not my favorite part.

(1) okay, why? this solve just seems so collectively off and doesn't really fit with the gamestate yesterday at all. not to mention, from what I can see you spent far more time trying to undercut skitter than trying to focus on bork, and I think the simplest explanation for that is that bork was amenable to voting me and skitt very clearly wasn't going to. I think you wanted to win yesterday, and the simplest way to do that was to try to undermine my key supporter and disregard... basically anything else

(2) which leads me into this -- I've cited two posts of yours above from yesterday where you said that you didn't think mom/me were teamed together because of the way the day unfolded. if this was a genuine thought process, I don't think you come in today and after briefly AtEing and voting notsci, switching back to me bc you think I'm the easiest miselim. basically the only person who really TRs me is skitt and bork kinda did. so from scum!you perspective pushing me makes a lot of sense, but from town!you perspective you'd have to be totally disregarding your process from yesterday which doesn't follow because

(3) there's no real reason you provide why if yesterday "all these possibilities were more likely than #2" things are now different. again, I think if you're town you try to reevaluate given that you'd have been consistently wrong throughout the game. instead, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too by going "oh man my reads have been really bad whoopsie... but btw it *is* still mena, and oh, don't worry about the fact that I was trying to push him yesterday vs the confscum flip we have on mom". it's like you're not actually trying to generate any possibilities for your supposed scenario #3, you're just trying to bend things back around to me being scum

(4) this also just... doesn't really follow? how has the likelihood of my doing scum theatre different today vs yesterday?

(5) this feels like you're trying to walk back on notsci bc you don't think he's the most likely slot you can wagon today, and because you think he's less of a threat at this point than I am. when notsci entered he was saying "it's me or infinity" and you were perfectly happy to go after him. now he's shown like any doubt you're trying to bring him on board with you and switching your target back to me, despite this not being consistent with your supposed earlier thought processes

(6) but you just said earlier that you think one of your biggest mistakes this game was NOT going against consensus earlier in the game. why is this different now? you were making an issue of how going with consensus has led to us to here and that you wish you hadn't, only now you're switching back to "well, guess I'd better go with consensus bc I don't wanna be wrong again"

(7) this is just more AtE in the exact same vein of "oh no we're so lost I'll vote myself if skitt wants me to :sad face:" which, exactly as I said, you had no intention of ever doing

[Disaster Cartel]

It would also beg the question why would skitter stick her neck out to save one scum partner by bussing the other

To be very clear, I don't believe this is what happened. I'm pretty sure skitter is town here. The question is mostly how skitter sorted mena wrong, and I don't have a good answer besides "skitter is human".

this feels a lot like you realised that your approach of trying to lump us together yesterday didn't work and so you're switching tack to trying to just undermine skitt (the only person other than me to have hard pushed scum, I might add) instead of trying to actually sell us as a team

I can quote some of skitt/mena's interactions, but it comes down to very little direct engagement compared to what I expect from them. This was definitely not the main reason I suspected they were partners (low activity from mena helps explain it) but it was a small contributing factor.

only there's a very large difference here which is that skitt is in a hydra, something you've been totally neglecting as part of this. I don't *need* to sort skitter head if she's paired with someone else who I have a very good read rate on, and lili is someone who after reading her wrong in our first couple of games, I'm p sure I've read correctly in every game we've had since. so no, I haven't had as much direct engagement or paranoia about skitt as normal bc since lili got pissed off me on D1 I've been pretty certain that she's town because I don't think she chooses to actively guilt me like that over getting pissed off with her as scum. if she did then she's more ruthless than I had her pegged for, but I really doubt that

[Disaster Cartel]

This is not meant to convince anyone that DC is scum here, it's mostly just to show my thought process.

she said, trying to convince everyone DC was scum

[Disaster Cartel]

maybe notsci is scum idk

[Disaster Cartel]

and this is exactly the crux of my issue with you -- it's that we *have* to be scum for you, and I think that's something you need a lot more than scum than as town. I don't think that it's true that any of the other slots left bar I guess skitt have been that much more towny than us, but you keep repeating it like it's fact. again, we were right on nacho and opposed that. I was right on NM and pushed that. my misses were on peta and I guess kind of on mom in that even tho I called it I wasn't able to really push it yesterday due to extenuating circumstances.

so I think you're kind of backed into scum reading us because it was more convenient earlier and bc there's at least one town slot who's unsure on our alignment and so you think we're more viable than the others are.

I don't think I'm ignoring anything on the mom/us scumflip thing? my point is that your argument yesterday was "it seems unlikely there's more than 1 scum in mom/DC". if that's not what you were saying, explain how posts like 3328 make sense? and your framing is very disingenuous -- you say scum could have gotten us flipped yesterday -- I think scum tried really hard to get us flipped yesterday and p much only didn't manage to bc of skitter! but you're not considering things like cakez/iverson bc, again, it's a lot easier for you to push a narrative that we're scum and to try and get our flip given how we're perceived by others in the game than by seriously reconsidering us and looking at the others

why does our game make sense from scum in a way that prism's doesn't? cakez has had broadly similar positions to us throughout the game so why is it that we're apparently scum and he's not there? it just comes down to the "feeling very town emotionally" thing or what

and besides which, what exactly has notsci done in the last like, 6-7 pages that moved him from the person you wanted to vote to being "much townier" than us

[Disaster Cartel]

I said that it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence yesterday and it is today

fine, why

if you think it's not theatre today, why didn't you think that yesterday

idgi

[Disaster Cartel]

(5) this feels like you're trying to walk back on notsci bc you don't think he's the most likely slot you can wagon today, and because you think he's less of a threat at this point than I am. when notsci entered he was saying "it's me or infinity" and you were perfectly happy to go after him. now he's shown like any doubt you're trying to bring him on board with you and switching your target back to me, despite this not being consistent with your supposed earlier thought processes

(6) but you just said earlier that you think one of your biggest mistakes this game was NOT going against consensus earlier in the game. why is this different now? you were making an issue of how going with consensus has led to us to here and that you wish you hadn't, only now you're switching back to "well, guess I'd better go with consensus bc I don't wanna be wrong again"

Mena I started showing doubt on notsci when he started making towny posts, I'm pretty sure he didn't show doubt at all up until that point. I also think notsci is the most likely player to get limmed besides me today

I'm not quite sure why I said 6, because I don't really scumread anyone outside the consensus anyway, but if I did it's true I would certainly have difficulty pushing them. Yes it would absolutely be correct, but there's only so many times you can push against consensus and be wrong before it wears you down.

what were the particularly towny posts that notsci made that made you reconsider then?

and you haven't pushed outside of consensus all game! yet the game has gone completely off the rails and you said you considered that following of consensus a mistake only to hit today and to... go after the probably most consensus-y scumread that's not you (and maybe not notsci but I think notsci has more people who are ambivalent on him than are on our slot)?

[Disaster Cartel]

and this is exactly the crux of my issue with you -- it's that we *have* to be scum for you, and I think that's something you need a lot more than scum than as town.

This is only partly true, I said in UGC that it's a bit +scum for me to have too many TRs but it also happens to me most games as town.

right but I also don't think this makes sense given the situation we're in. like scum need only one more lim to win. instead of like really going back through and wanting to make sure all your TRs are justified it seems like you're doubling down on them for flimsy reasons (especially on prism who I think has a lot of partner equity with you) and pushing us instead. it feels a lot more like you want to go for the win today now that you've climbed down from the woe is me stuff yesterday and that the easiest way for you to do that is to come after us, much in the same vein you did yesterday

the big difference is that now my move is complete and I can actually take time to respond to this and to solve the game and I don't need to rely on skitt to stop us losing

[Disaster Cartel]

okay fine, I'll wait and see on the quotes

where did cakez say that he's not bussing anymore?

[Disaster Cartel]

and cakez had a prior meta of bussing heavily?

[Disaster Cartel]

bc that seems to be the implication of what ur saying in 3559

[Disaster Cartel]

and you haven't pushed outside of consensus all game! yet the game has gone completely off the rails and you said you considered that following of consensus a mistake only to hit today and to... go after the probably most consensus-y scumread that's not you (and maybe not notsci but I think notsci has more people who are ambivalent on him than are on our slot)?

Well yesterday my solve was very outside consensus. I guess what I'm trying to say is that me being wrong emotionally makes me really want to just trust others' reads. Mom flipping scum does make going inside consensus a bit more reasonable too, because it means scum aren't in control of the game most likely.

I guess that's true but your "solve" yesterday also involved pushing two slots I know to be town as being scum, one who I'm p sure is town to be scum, and all of that away from confscum so you can see why I'm a liiiil bit sceptical here. also you say you wanna trust others reads: but one of the main things you're trying to argue is that skitt is just wrong on us despite skitt being p much without a doubt the best person on mafiascum(dot)net at reading me. like literally there is nobody else who reads me as consistently well as skitter does as both alignments, and while I have fooled her when I've been scum in the past it's been a loooong ass time.

and I also don't get the "scum not in control of the game" thing. like there's something to be said for that with mom flipping but I don't think we see the first two days be town flips without scum having pretty decent control of the game? or like what's your alternative explanation for how we're still a day away from even having a shot at winning if scum haven't had decent control over the game so far

[Disaster Cartel]

Yeah cakez had a meta of bussing a lot and pooky said somewhere that he's now allergic to bussing, I made a mental note of it. Will try to find it.

please, bc I'd like to see this

[Disaster Cartel]

Obviously I don't think my townreads are for flimsy reasons, yesterday I went through my reasons for TRing prism. I'm weighting my salsa read a decent amount here, which makes me more comfortable having a strong TR on a strong scum player.

feel like ur kind of sidestepping notsci here but w/e. okay, I'll go back through your posts yesterday again on prism!slot but like... idk, I don't think salsa was towny at all, and even if u think she was I'm confused by how you think it was to such an extent that prism just gets a pass

[Disaster Cartel]

I don't think prism's day 3 play makes any sense from scum

like again to stress this, but from what I've read of prism's D3 it just doesn't make a lot of sense overall not specifically doesn't make sense from scum

and someone (I wanna say maybe unwnd or Shirou) made a point to me a lil while back that I've kinda taken to heart that if someone's play just makes no sense as either alignment and you really don't get it, that makes them scummier not townier

[Disaster Cartel]

I said that it wasn't enough to outweigh my other evidence yesterday and it is today

fine, why

if you think it's not theatre today, why didn't you think that yesterday

idgi

I'm not sure how many ways I can say the same thing until you understand. D3 I thought you and skitt were scum together for other reasons (skitt pushing mom was a big one) which to me outweighed the unlikeliness of you/lilith being scum theater. Now that those reasons are gone, you/lilith interactions get weighted more heavily and for that reason and others I don't think you're scum with VFT.

I mean I think I understand at this point maybe the problem is more that I'm struggling to believe

I think it's very hard to read the interactions between lili/me as scum theatre, there's just like.. a lot of emotion there that I don't know if I could fake as scum and which even if I could I really don't think she could. I think you looking at that would put a lot of weight on that and so your thing of skitt being scum for pushing mom>us and that being sufficient evidence to overlook the reasons to think that we're not aligned seems false. like your position on it today makes sense. but your position on it yesterday makes a lot more sense to me if it's not something you really believed but something that, if you wanted to try to win yesterday, you had to push as an angle

[Disaster Cartel]

me both being very loud and very wrong

I don't think you were particularly loud since like... D1? so I kinda think you're assigning yourself an outsize weighting here

[Disaster Cartel]

honestly trying to find a solve without you in it would drive me insane atp.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're just scum and that again, we're the easiest push here for you so I get it in that sense

but idk, I feel like from past experiences with town!you you don't just lock down into a tunnel like this for two days (or more?) straight especially as the other bits of information I think would be making you reevaluate and reconsider

[Disaster Cartel]

goddamn it ffery

do you have some sort of script helping you out here with notifications or something

[Disaster Cartel]

idk infinity like

you just feel very agenda-y this game and especially today and yesterday

and it's like there's a lot of little tings that just feel super off

like yesterday you lolcatting at us when we weren't around and being like "lol I don't need to convince you of anything ur scum let's lim DC" and then today the way you're engaging with me feels a lot more like it's to try and make yourself look towny than it is because you really have that much interest in engaging with me at all, but more like you can't just push the lim on us by lolcatting again so you have to make it look like it's kind of considered and thought out

[Disaster Cartel]

I'm sidestepping notsci because even if notsci is scum, unless one of my other 3 TRs is scum you still have to be scum here.

ehh, I guess this kind of makes sense or is at least NAI

[Disaster Cartel]

Yeah I disagree from a theory perspective, people are weird and just do weird things sometimes, whereas even if scum aren't specifically trying to avoid weirdness they often will because their play is crafted. I think prism's play d3 makes some amount of sense from town who is frustrated with how the game played out, and of course that doesn't explain everything but the scum perspective seems so unlikely that it's good enough for me.

I mean, I'm not saying that weird=scum that's much too simplistic. I'm saying if you really cannot fathom why someone is playing a certain way or how it benefits them as either alignment, that person ends up flipping scum more often than not. I can find examples from some of my recent games if you like, bc I've only started adhering to this position because I think it is actually significantly better than rand. if you think prism's play makes sense as frustrated town that's not what I'm talking about -- my point is that /to me/ I don't get prism's play *at all* on D3. again, this might be because he was posting stupidly wordy catchup posts that were melting my poor exhausted skull when I was trying to read them on the bus moving shit from my old flat to my new one but honestly the once through pass I've given them today hasn't helped matters a lot, and I do think that's +scum for him. but like skitter and cakez both seem to disagree, so I would like someone to talk me through what's towny about them. if you wanna talk through how they make sense as frustrated town but

don't

as frustrated scum, go for it (or if I missed that in your posts from yesterday, point me the right way) but I think the frustration aspect is NAI and that means looking at them from the angle of what they're wanting to accomplish within the game and that doesn't really make sense to me or isn't something I can grasp

[Disaster Cartel]

If you're town mena I don't really blame you for being wrong on me here. I do sort of wish you'd take into account our previous experiences a bit more (specifically, my play tends to be a lot more all over the place as town and you often have issues with that), but /shrug

I am town and if this were early game I'd say that you have a point

but I feel like the way you've engaged with our slot but more specifically me just feels so deeply wrong that I'm not sure how I'm meant to walk back from it. there are just too many inconsistencies with your thought processes, the way you've been playing all game has been very +scum, and I feel like the way you've been playing from yesterday into today is just very in line with what scum would want to do

I could also flip this back on you, which is that I think you've more often been wrong on me when you've thought I was scum and I've been town and I think when I've been scum against you (not sure if it was just that one game or if there are more) you've normally thought I was scum, but the fact you also don't seem to have considered that feels ehhh to me

[Disaster Cartel]

but maybe people weren't really listening to me at that point.

imagine being me this game

[Disaster Cartel]

I haven't had a game this cassandra-esque in fucking ages

[Disaster Cartel]

DC keeps making terrible posts

name 1

[Disaster Cartel]

i hate how DC keeps trying to widen the elim pool

but I'm not? I've pretty clearly stated that I think it's infinity/iverson the vast majority of the time

my point is that I don't get why infinity, if town, isn't considering anything beyond her DC!scum solve being the lynchpin that everything else revolves around

[Disaster Cartel]

cakez ur a towel

[Disaster Cartel]

and also do you maybe want to, idk, actually fucking talk to me instead of just making shade posts about how bad my posting is

[Disaster Cartel]

also @cakez I just ISO'd you in the postgame of among us and it didn't really clear things up on why you wouldn't bus nowadays

[Disaster Cartel]

DC keeps making terrible posts

name 1

1 the one I quoted with you trying to get Iverson and me into the elim pool

i hate how DC keeps trying to widen the elim pool

but I'm not? I've pretty clearly stated that I think it's infinity/iverson the vast majority of the time

my point is that I don't get why infinity, if town, isn't considering anything beyond her DC!scum solve being the lynchpin that everything else revolves around

(2) I don't see a chance in hell Iverson made some of those posts yesterday as scum
(3) Why should Infinity have to change her reads? (4) there's little evidence suggesting you are town

also @cakez I just ISO'd you in the postgame of among us and it didn't really clear things up on why you wouldn't bus nowadays

you have to read everyone's comments
I was criticized a lot for bussing too heavily that game

(1) no, see (3)

(2) like the two you quoted above ? because what exactly do you think is in there that is beyond reproach or that isn't within any even reasonably competent scumplayer's repertoire?

(3) I'm not saying infinity has to change her reads you absolute melt, I'm saying that it /does not make sense/ that infinity is this tunnelled and not reconsidering at all GIVEN that what she apparently believed previously. if I have the thought of "oh huh, X/Y don't make sense as a team" and then one of them flips scum and then I go "wait actually I know X was scum but I think Y is still probably scum" that DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. especially when the game is up in the air. you know what doubly doesn't make sense? is when you enter the day going "mmm yeah it's probably me or notsci" and then pivoting back to the exact same shit you were on the day before especially when it's confirmed that she was pushing it against a scum wagon. like do you need me to spell things out for you. is that it

(4) WE HAVE PRACTICALLY THE SAME VOTING PROGRESSION THROUGHOUT THIS GAME. like what. why do you think I even reconsidered you in the first place? do you have actual reasons for why we're scum? like any? other than blah blah oh trying to widen the limpool when again, that's very clearly not what I was trying to do and that should be blatantly obvious if you have even a vague sense of reading comprehension given that at no point was I trying to get votes anywhere other than onto infinity and at no point am I actually trying to get infinity to vote elsewhere other than me. like I could give a fuck where infinity votes, the important thing is that what she's trying to say does not make sense

[Disaster Cartel]

like do you enjoy gamethrowing cakez? is that a past-time of yours?

[Disaster Cartel]

have you considered listening to players that have an ounce of competence ?

[Disaster Cartel]

because you're playing like trash, you should feel bad, and I want you to understand very clearly that if we lose this game the loss is exclusively on you at this point for being so fucking stubborn and arrogant not to listen to anyone who's better than you and especially for not listening to, again, the person on the site with the best read rate on me bar none who has been telling you FOR DAYS that I'm town and just continuing your shitread on us despite not having spoken to me since like day fucking 2

[Disaster Cartel]

"you haven't done anything town"

oh you know apart from oppose the fucking shitty nacho lim on D1, push N_M since D1 and into D2, correctly have mom as scum throughout most of the game but that doesn't count right, what's towny about that

[Disaster Cartel]

Vote Count 1-10

Leafeon and Glaceon

(3):

Disaster Cartel

, Nachomamma8,

SirCakez

Nachomamma8

(3): Venus Fly Trap, Infinity 324, notscience

Disaster Cartel

(2): Salsabil Faria, Kismet

SirCakez

(1): Leafeon and Glaceon

notscience

(1): The Bulge

Not_Mafia

(1): Not_Mafia

Not Voting

(1): Momrangal

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline: April 26, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-04-25 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Salsabil Farai is v/la until April 16
-

Vote Count 1-15

Nachomamma8

(3): Venus Fly Trap, Infinity 324, Kismet

Leafeon and Glaceon

(2):

Disaster Cartel

, Nachomamma8

Momrangal

(2): notscience,

SirCakez

SirCakez

(1): Leafeon and Glaceon

notscience

(1): The Bulge

Not_Mafia

(1): Not_Mafia

Disaster Cartel

(1): Salsabil Faria

Not Voting

(1): Momrangal

Deadline: April 26, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-04-25 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Salsabil Farai is v/la until April 16
-

Vote Count 2-3

Not_Mafia

(4): Infinity 324, Iverson,

Disaster Cartel

,

SirCakez

Not Voting

(6): The Bulge, Venus Fly Trap, Momrangal, Kismet, notscience, Not_Mafia

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Deadline: May 11, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-10 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Vote Count 2-5

The Bulge

(3): Venus Fly Trap, notscience, Infinity 324

Not_Mafia

(3):

Disaster Cartel

,

SirCakez

, Iverson

Not Voting

(4): The Bulge, Momrangal, Not_Mafia, Kismet

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Deadline: May 11, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-10 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Vote Count 2-6

The Bulge

(4): Venus Fly Trap, notscience, Infinity 324, Iverson

Not_Mafia

(2):

Disaster Cartel

,

SirCakez

Not Voting

(4): The Bulge, Momrangal, Not_Mafia, Kismet

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Deadline: May 11, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-10 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

Vote Count 2-12

The Bulge

(4): Venus Fly Trap, notscience, Infinity 324, Kismet

Not_Mafia

(4):

Disaster Cartel

,

SirCakez

, Momrangal, Iverson

Infinity 324

(1): The Bulge

Not Voting

(1): Not_Mafia

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

Deadline: May 11, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-05-10 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

- sniped while walking the pup!
-

[Disaster Cartel]

but wow yeah you're right cakez we've done nothing town all game

[Disaster Cartel]

and you're just so fucking good you've got that strong insight that you just know we're scum right

that's why you're such a strong player who never gets misyeeted and is always getting N1'd and why I constantly get misyeeted and scum never fearkill me or marginalise me

[Disaster Cartel]

damn, how did I not put that together sooner, guess I should just vote myself out

[Disaster Cartel]

I'm just telling cakez how he's such a talented mafia player infinity what are you talking about

[Disaster Cartel]

actually you know what fuck this I'm dipping for a bit I'll be back later

[Disaster Cartel]

and you're just so fucking good you've got that strong insight that you just know we're scum right

that's why you're such a strong player who never gets misyeeted and is always getting N1'd and why I constantly get misyeeted and scum never fearkill me or marginalise me

This is over the line

but you know what even if it is harsh where's the lie

now I'm going

[Disaster Cartel]

:/

i can’t really talk right now since i’m working and i know i didn’t say those things but uh, it is my slot so i feel i should apologize for those things, they’re definitely too far.

- ydra

[Disaster Cartel]

I'd like to apologise to everyone for making the game unpleasant but especially to cakez, that was over the line and I shouldn't have said it. You're a very good player and I didn't mean it, and it was unfair to you. Sorry also to ffery for making you have to get a replacement. I'm probably going to take a day or two before I come back.

[Disaster Cartel]

hi MT, nice to have you, sorry you rolled scum although I guess you're p happy about that

[Disaster Cartel]

sorry again to everyone for yesterday

[Disaster Cartel]

I can get into this more later but for now I'd like to draw attention to the way that morning has approached this rep in and the fact that it fits *incredibly* well with her being infinity!partner:

Is Venus/Infinity a viable scumteam or am I way off the mark?

(on page 6 lol)

me too sort of

you were second or third to defend NM and i am biased against everyone who said "No let's not policy NM"

additionally you seemed more passive like theres not a lot of SRing and more i guess normal questioning and less interesting stuff

Like from my two game baseline i think you had a push on me fairrrrlly early in royalty and i forget what happened in one night stand

as it is presently I was thinking less likely cakez/notsci scum and if i had to pick between you and disaster for one, well

Spoiler: Infinity and Mena discuss NM

Now, if the scumteam is given the chance to safehouse NachoDaughter, then town has to kill NachoDaddy to get their three points.

Ok but as a town we can decide to elim nachodaddy anyway and it's at least based on something, and nachodaddy might even be >rand scum where as a policy on NM would not be. I don't really care about "strongest scum player", I care about being able to tell the difference between someone's townplay and scumplay

I think in a game where a bunch of people know each other the game becomes less about who is charismatic/town-looking enough to avoid the elim and more about who can give town the most doubts as to whether they are scum. By virtue of being unreadable NM is pretty good at the latter

Thanks!

And yeah I believe nacho thinks limming NM is protown, I think that much is clear. I'm much less sure he believes this cakez read though.

I think in a game where a bunch of people know each other the game becomes less about who is charismatic/town-looking enough to avoid the elim and more about who can give town the most doubts as to whether they are scum. By virtue of being unreadable NM is pretty good at the latter

idgi how are those two things not the same? like the people who are most towny looking are surely also the ones you have the most doubts about being scum?

-Mena

idgi how are those two things not the same? like the people who are most towny looking are surely also the ones you have the most doubts about being scum?

NM is a perfect example of why it's not, they will never look towny but you will always have doubts about whether they are scum

Nacho looks relatively towny from an Objective Standpoint^TM but I don't have that many doubts about him being scum

idgi how are those two things not the same? like the people who are most towny looking are surely also the ones you have the most doubts about being scum?

NM is a perfect example of why it's not, they will never look towny but you will always have doubts about whether they are scum

Nacho looks relatively towny from an Objective Standpoint^TM but I don't have that many doubts about him being scum

are you saying you SR nacho or nah?

-Mena

Like yes, I may have doubts about whether NM is scum because he never does anything

But if you ask me to choose between someone who looks town and someone who I just don’t know if they’re scum, I’d rather lim the one who doesn’t look town like 99.99% of the time or something

-Mena

I've got two schools of thought where i think A.) scum has to do mental gymnastics to justify not voting outA NM or B.) they make somewhat of a show out of siding against NM to look better

As it was, Momrangal/Lion was not in the game. Not_Mafia was himself. Leafy shaded NM but didnt really weigh in on it directly.

Venus/Infinity openly defended whilst Mena was pretty heavily against NM.

i dont really recall notsci or cakes focusing on it too much

I find it reaaally hard to buy that no scum assisted NM at all and it was just one bus on him by Mena!scum (two busses after voting leafy). In a game where scum are gonna be dying each phase that's certainly valuable to scum though so im not really counting disaster out

Also I was kinda getting the sense Mena might just be frustrated with NM so it'd be NAI but dont know yet

like is that really your argument? "shit i got that 10 out of 11 townreads (or somewhere in that vein), but fuck, DANGER ZONE, better play defense"

lol

I skimmed mod iso to the final VC and apparently NM wasn't even in contention by the end of the day like I thought he was so okay then moving on. The Nachomamma interactions are so long i dont really read into them super deeply but SIGH they're probably just as or more important

starts off by slapping down a scumlean on infinity from like suuuuper early on when infinity was actually looking fine (I don't really think infinity starts to get scummy until considerably later in the game so MT being like "oh yeah infinity = bad at the opening" should stand out because I'd like to remind everyone that basically nobody had significant doubts about infinity in the early game. why? because infinity's posting in the early game *was good* and was strongly replicative of her towngame)

so what's the benefit here? scum is doubling down on trying to get my lim through for the second day in a row. infinity doesn't really have the traction to push it through alone, but MT!slot is like ~fairly TR and MT is also someone who enjoys playing scum and who's good at it, and I think the person much more likely to stand a chance of gaining traction. but! there's a problem, if MT joins and immediately goes for my throat without acknowledging that my play has been towny at all, that seems far less convincing and it's also far more transparent tomo that she's partnered with infinity, assuming we get that through. so instead there's these nods to how I'm town and an effort to create some form of distancing with infinity, at least to create reasonable doubt vs someone like notsci for tomo if they can't win today

My not thinking it makes sense that I should be townread in general =/= I don’t think nacho shouldn’t be townreading me more and find it kinda weird he isn’t given that I’ve been on a similar trajectory to him but also, importantly, have gotten there on some things before him (like voting leafy). Given that I can’t just be sheeping him bc of that, I find it weird that someone who’s coming to the game from a v similar viewpoint in many ways, he doesn’t see as town

i don't like this from disaster cartel. i find it a frustrating experience as scum when i defend lynchbait (or don't push a townie who everyone is railing against) and they don't townread me back. this looks like this - i don't buy thst mena thinks we're gonna townread each other because we have similar reads

i also have used my amazing detective skills to gleam that ydrasse is someone who is super town when they're town

and they are not that here

(cause like, yes)

and also regarding the second, maybe Ydrasse isn't always super town as town but im on a big streak of Ydrasse!scum games where she plays identical to what i have read thus far

I'll prob let ydra deal with this when she does get here, but we were talking yesterday bc I wasn't in a great way tbh, and she mentioned that she thinks it's sus that the meta angle is being pushed against her specifically when she just finished a scumgame with infinity where she was like the polar opposite to this and also that she's had like a general low mood thing that she's starting to come out of re: games in general. also this game has just been a fucking slog overall, so I think trying to make that into this strongly AI thing for ydra is off

Would infinity reeeeallllyy defend misty/beeboy reeeeeeeeeeallllllllllllyyyyyy thoughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (944)

Plus that other stuff that was confbiasing me aka leafy hard tring infinity in 604

Shiiit im impressed if Infinity hard defends misty and pushes Nacho as scum

Nacho I'm not sure what to tell you, I'm not even just continuing to SR you for the same reasons from early on because you continue to post things that look scummy to me. It's just not worth it to go into that because you're not going to change my mind. I'm not exactly sure what scum!you is supposed to do if me/bork/notsci/VFT are all town, you tried to push VFT and it didn't take. And for everyone else, I don't know who you're bussing and not (though I have some ideas) and I'll figure it out when you flip scum. If you're town, I'm sorry and I'll re-evaluate my view of the game and heavily weight your reads because I know you're a good player and you'll be confirmed town to me then. I just don't see that happening atm.

you tried to push VFT and it didn't take.

You're not the first person to say this but it's not correct.

If I was scum here I would be pushing townies to die. People can disagree with me and I'd still push for townies to die because playing scum is all about cracking trust and breaking down townblocks. Like in Order of the Stick when I got edged out pretty harshly by a solid townblock I kept pushing at people like Wisdom even though it wasn't popular because you need to push mislynches to win as scum. Here ESPECIALLY I would only need to kill one townie in order to safehouse myself so I can guarantee that I would get that one townie lynched.

I think L&G are town so yeah

Also was I in order of the stick?

fucking hell i just dunno if i see it

I'm pretty sure VFT is town because skitt singlehandedly strongarmed the elim on mom yesterday. Since DC was likely the other option, there is some world where she's still scum with DC, but that seems very very unlikely to me still.

Okay i was gonna ask if Venus could be scum with Disaster then since strongarming mom wouldn't matter in that case

Why do you find this world unlikely? Or what *is* more likely, i suppose

this is where the walkback begins and it's pretty much entirely based on WIFOM or on the assumption that infinity has a weak scumgame... which is EXACTLY the same argument that infinity has been trying to sell today and yesterday and throughout the game of just "oh I'm not good enough to have done this as scum I've just misplayed things". I don't think morning comes across as particularly interested in thinking about whether infinity is really out of range or not, and doesn't really have any actual reasons why infinity couldn't/wouldn't be able to do that as scum, it's just like a pure discourse thing "would infinity reaaaaaally do this" like yes? why wouldn't she? MT's not engaging with reasons of why she would or wouldn't and is just using this to try and justify coming round to an infinity townread which continues

bottom line right now is cakes is town

infinity seems like town

Notsci and venus i dont know. both seem to have positive things going for them but from what i can tell Leafeon/Momrangal/NM were all pretty easily scum so i expect at least one scumteam member to have done well for themself

and Disaster seems like scum

eeh?

here. we've now had a complete reversal and MT has managed to line up with the exact same position as her pred in the important elements, which is that infinity!town and us!scum. this is scum's easiest path to a win, and I think that all of MT's posting reads as motivated by getting to that end state. what she's saying about notsci and VFT is fairly immaterial I think, but the cakez pocket attempt (the easiest next person to get onto me) is I think p blatant

I don't want to make this too long and I gotta head out bc I'm going to get a covid test done but I think her trajectory and posting around notsci is also v much aimed at trying to defuse there and to get notsci on board which is probably a slightly harder task than cakez

[Disaster Cartel]

like remember, if it's notsci/infinity then there's not a great deal of reason for them not to bus here at the beginning. like maybe they back it off and they're hoping that they can quick hammer if I get to two

but if it's infinity/Mt then there's a lot more motivation to just go for the win today because even if we get infinity, MT is probably still not on the bottom of the block and there's a good chance of winning for them tomo, which means I think the fact that this is blatant isn't clearing in the way that it might be if MT like, desperately needed to increase her endgame equity

[Disaster Cartel]

oh, there's also one more thing I want to mention bc its being brought up and weaponised again which is ydra's switch off NM onto bulge and the main thing is like

why would she do that as scum? like there's pretty much zero need to do that as scum and it actively makes the game harder not easier for exactly the reason that it can be used as a way to discredit my consistent push on NM (which also lol @MT trying to make that sus in and of itself because "mena seems too comfortable with it" like, morning, we've played together, you know that when I'm happy with a push confidence in pushing it is not something I lack and if anything presenting a lot of doubts about the person I want to flip while pushing them is scum!indicative for me)

why is there zero need to do it? because nobody was really saying that bulge/NM needed to be TvS and the general feeling was that they were probably s/s. if we're scum all we need to do is keep our vote on NM and then we never get pushed via this angle lategame. kismet still gets limmed and the bulge is like a super viable mislim the following day. which means that we end up in the same situation as we're in today, with the same players p much exactly, only in a much improved gamestate for any world where we're scum

[Disaster Cartel]

like there's so much wrong with MT's posting so far but I don't have time yet lmao

[Disaster Cartel]

Best of luck Disaster

lol if this was like anyone else morning I'd be shocked by the audacity

[Disaster Cartel]

but coming from you I guess not so much

[Disaster Cartel]

I don't think this is true though

I'm pretty sure it was, I'll try to find quotes in a bit

but I think the only one who was like particularly opposed was notsci and even that only came after like.. a while of wanting bulge dead

like put it this way: most of the voters on the bulge wagon probably would still have voted bulge the next day anyway, and those on the NM wagon I think wanted NM more but I don't think there was anyone screaming that bulge was town there

[Disaster Cartel]

why would she do that as scum? like there's pretty much zero need to do that as scum and it actively makes the game harder not easier for exactly the reason that it can be used as a way to discredit my consistent push on NM

Why didn't you bring this up, like, a long time ago when I first pushed you on it? Lol

I think you wanted to get NM the hell out of the game so he couldn't be limmed

again, why

it functionally changes almost nothing other than making us look worse

and idk infinity, maybe because I think I made about 10 posts yesterday due to moving flat and wasn't devoting a whole hell of a lot of brainpower to the game

that doesn't make the point any less compelling now or change the fact that it's just a very dumb thing from scum!us to do. unless you want to argue that you don't think bulge would have been eminently limmable the next day

[Disaster Cartel]

hi MT, nice to have you, sorry you rolled scum although I guess you're p happy about that

Why would i ever be happy about rolling scum genuine question

are you really going to make me find quotes of you talking about how you have higher WIM as scum or can you just admit it and save us both the trouble

because I will go back and find them, because I remember very clearly telling you in a game that I thought you were town partly bc you seemed energised and you said something along the lines of "that's not reliable and if anything is probably +scum for me"

[Disaster Cartel]

Because it's a free point for town basically when NM is still alive? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue

the point is not about how many points there are

the point is that it makes the final point significantly harder to get

it is objectively better for scum!us to be in a situation where town has 2 points and scum has 2 points but we're much harder to push than to be in a situation where scum have 2 points and town has 1 and we're clearly pushable, which is what's happened today

like if we were scum, if we'd /not/ made that vote switch we probably wouldn't be having this conversation because one of your/MT's main points of ammo wouldn't be available

[Disaster Cartel]

MT is continuing to do her absolute level best to lampshade the words LOOK, I HAVE A TRAJECTORY IN MY READS in flashing neon letters

but there's just holes that don't make sense in the order that she's supposedly having these thoughts

If Disaster/Venus is a possibility that's the one i want to bet all of my chips on

Even though Venus would be killing it

Cause notsci and infinity are too

really starts leaning into the idea here but is kind of hedging on it. there's also the post later on where she talks about how VFT being against me/for infinity would maybe be something that would make her reconsider which makes like zero sense if she's entertaining the two of us as a team + given that she's apparently over twice as certain as rand that I'm scum lol

lets uh get thru D3 so i can see why everyone switched from Disaster to Infinity now, shall we

Inf or notsci for me today
That desperate push to not elim Mom and instead elim DC yesterday from Inf was TERRIBLE

ok lemme see

I dont know if I see it exactly, feel like you'd sooner elim Mom rather than claim Bork is scum dont you think? And outright defending Mom over DC. I feel like bussing Mom is a pretty relatively easy move in comparison for scum to make

Boy am i happy i was so stubborn yesterday
(And that i was right!)

I strongly believe infinity is scum, and am planning on voting her today. I will consider voting notsci as well

~ skitter

To be fair scum is still going to win following skitts' plan here

pretty sure these two definitely arent the team so I guess defending DC and voting out Mom works out for that team.

I'll do my due diligence in determining if Venus could have won by hard pushing Iverson or Cakez yesterday sometime later though.

From my perspective I don't see why DC/Venus isn't the team

if the Iverson/Cakez pushes were too risky -- I'd throw out Mom in that scenario as well as you can see it's still a W

The "infinity is confirm scum" thing took off really quickly start of D4 and i feel like im missing something but it comes off like all of venus/notsci/DC/cakez are convinced (?) sheesh

Totally missing what happened start of D4 to cause that, I guess it's because Infinity wanted DC over Mom really bad but I'm failing to see why that matters.

here (especially the first bit I bolded but also kinda the second) morning is presenting as tho she's sold on skitt being probably scum. remember this because it's important when you come to this post here:

I do not think Cakes or notsci are scum at all, I CAN SEE THIS

Maybe it was a mistake to not hard push Iverson or Cakes on the previous day, maybe Mom just really couldnt be trusted to perform a quick elim, I do not know but it's got things going for it and I can more easily accept it than any of you three being scum rn

i am so dead if this is correct though (^∀^) FUCK

I CAN SEE IT

it's possible

Also quite possible i have just a strange distorted view of the game and im overlooking something completely different like infinity or notsci being scum and everybody's going to clown on me later but I can accept that because I think this is already a really dire scenario as it is

Fuck

she's acting here like she's just had this big revelation that "oh my god holy shit, it's VFT/DC!!!" but like... this shouldn't be shocking if her prior post was genuine because that's what she was supposedly already thinking. like the only thing that made her not commit to it was bc she needs to do "due diligence" on the skitt iverson thing, but the "I CAN SEE IT" is just so performative. that's like the most blatant bit where it comes through but the whole post reads in the same way

[Disaster Cartel]

it is objectively better for scum!us to be in a situation where town has 2 points and scum has 2 points but we're much harder to push than to be in a situation where scum have 2 points and town has 1 and we're clearly pushable, which is what's happened today

In the second scenario, worst case you get limmed and then end up in the first scenario.

lol

ur really trying to say that u think that we were getting limmed immediately after NM instead of bulge after having pushed him since D1

come on infinity, try at least

[Disaster Cartel]

like ur buddy is putting in so much effort here! you can do better than that

[Disaster Cartel]

*snip*

Although i wanna note I'm not even sure you can consider me guessing venus/infinity on page 6 of my catchup a distance though

Who is infinity's partner

me too sort of

you [infinity] were second or third to defend NM and i am biased against everyone who said "No let's not policy NM"

additionally you seemed more passive like theres not a lot of SRing and more i guess normal questioning and less interesting stuff

Like from my two game baseline i think you had a push on me fairrrrlly early in royalty and i forget what happened in one night stand

as it is presently I was thinking less likely cakez/notsci scum and if i had to pick between you and disaster for one, well

*snip*

I've got two schools of thought where i think A.) scum has to do mental gymnastics to justify not voting outA NM or B.) they make somewhat of a show out of siding against NM to look better

As it was, Momrangal/Lion was not in the game. Not_Mafia was himself. Leafy shaded NM but didnt really weigh in on it directly.

Venus/

Infinity openly defended

whilst Mena was pretty heavily against NM.

i dont really recall notsci or cakes focusing on it too much

I find it reaaally hard to buy that no scum assisted NM at all and it was just one bus on him by Mena!scum

(two busses after voting leafy). In a game where scum are gonna be dying each phase that's certainly valuable to scum though so im not really counting disaster out

Also I was kinda getting the sense Mena might just be frustrated with NM so it'd be NAI but dont know yet

like is that really your argument? "shit i got that 10 out of 11 townreads (or somewhere in that vein), but fuck, DANGER ZONE, better play defense"

lol

I skimmed mod iso to the final VC and apparently NM wasn't even in contention by the end of the day like I thought he was so okay then moving on. The Nachomamma interactions are so long i dont really read into them super deeply but SIGH they're probably just as or more important

i think cakez and nm are the two scummiest slots in the game rn

i like vft/nacho/kismet to varying degrees

i have also kind of disliked infinity's push on us - there was this one part where she repeated some of the stuff i mentioned being the reasoning for me being low motivation that just felt odd

~leaf

wifom but confbiasing me into thinking cakes is town

i will admit infinity improves but that kinda makes me more unsure than anything else. Infinity's putting on a good performance

*snip*

yea uh there was no other posting you did that suggested distancing with infinity, that's right morning

[Disaster Cartel]

As scum would you rather be in this scenario (your second scenario) or already be limmed (your first scenario)?

what are you talking about

reread my post

we're not limmed in either scenario

[Disaster Cartel]

genuinely unsure if you're intentionally trying to wear me down with faux questions here or just not reading

although I guess the latter is about as +scum as the former so

[Disaster Cartel]

SCENARIO 1: we bus NM. the next day, we lim bulge. mom leaves. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. we look p good for having bussed NM all the way through and the day probably goes smoothly.

SCENARIO 2: we kill bulge. NM leaves. mom is limmed. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. the game is a horrible fucking shitfest because our correct push on NM is undermined by having jumped off him to vote bulge despite there being exactly no need to.

let me be very clear: unless you think that we couldn't lim bulge the next day in scenario (1) the two worlds are functionally no different in terms of who is alive. the basically ONLY difference is how we're perceived. so do you disagree that bulge would have been very limmable the next day, or do you not? and if you don't, why did ydra vote bulge? just to make this fun game a little bit extra challenging because it was too easy

[Disaster Cartel]

hi MT, nice to have you, sorry you rolled scum although I guess you're p happy about that

Why would i ever be happy about rolling scum genuine question

are you really going to make me find quotes of you talking about how you have higher WIM as scum or can you just admit it and save us both the trouble

because I will go back and find them, because I remember very clearly telling you in a game that I thought you were town partly bc you seemed energised and you said something along the lines of "that's not reliable and if anything is probably +scum for me"

I loathe playing scum, I'm surprised you didn't know

I have a tendency to try hard as scum but that's because i suffer from a fear of letting scummates down, not because i enjoy it

you're being pedantic but w/e

my point is that you hard-efforting this from rep-in is +scum for you, I think, especially when you're so close to the win

[Disaster Cartel]

like I don't care if it's because you enjoy it or because you feel obligated to do it, the end result is the same in practical terms of how hard you try and the quality of your posting

which is legit impressive, don't get me wrong, I don't have the WIM anymore to try as hard as you are when I rep into a scumgame in the final stages so... kudos

[Disaster Cartel]

Unless your partner also becomes easier to lim (which would be a hilarious TMI if that's what you're implying) then it's objectively better for town to have the extra point

IT'S OBJECTIVELY NOT

okay

I'm going to take a break and make dinner. I feel like infinity is intentionally playing dumb to avoid having to concede this point for the sake of her wincon which is totally fair! but I promised ydra that if I started getting annoyed I would time myself out to avoid repeats of yesterday so that's what I'm doing

I think infinity acting like she doesn't get that 2 points vs 2 points but with much less sus on a scumslot is far worse than 2 points vs 1 point with more sus on a scumslot

[Disaster Cartel]

Hehe well if 3840 is arguing that I seemed to think Venus/DC was the team but i didnt start freaking out til later is some kind of dissonance, sure, you can claim that

In reality i'd liken it more to a mounting storm of sorts where the more i look the more it makes sense and granted it might be because my cakes/notsci/infinity reads are confirm biasing me but wow was I excited about it just a bit ago

Either way I don't really think that's a very convincing point and you'll need to do better

morning I could absolutely not care less about what you think, no offence

like I think it's beyond obvious at this point. I get that that's not the case for everyone else because they're seeing this from the outside and I'm seeing it from the perspective of the one being shitpshed lol. but the only reason I'm engaging with you in the first place is to try and show how fake your play has been to those who'll cast the deciding votes

[Disaster Cartel]

i get so pumped playing other games and feel good about mafia and then I remember this game exists and it just drains my soul

If this ain’t a fucking mood

[Disaster Cartel]

i disagree
no one was saying it was S/S
some people just thought one or the other was scummier
ex; notsci

I’m gonna go back to try and pull quotes tomo but this is not how I remember it at all

[Disaster Cartel]

i completely disagree; tonally I think it makes sense

I don’t get it

If you’ve already been having the thought of “oh hmm X/Y seem teamed” then making a big post with LOTS OF CAPS and also exclamation points!! seems weird to me? Bc that to me is presenting the realisation as a shock/surprise but logically it shouldn’t have been by that point

So idk what you mean by it making sense tonally? Unless you just mean her tone is good whcih, sure, MT has almost universally had good tone whenever I’ve played with her

[Disaster Cartel]

Idk if I’m missing something in what you’re saying there tho cakez

[Disaster Cartel]

also this reminds me of posts I've seen scum make before

*shrug*

[Disaster Cartel]

if NM had been yeeted I think Bulge would have been off the table because he was the counterwagon to scum
I know I wouldn't have voted him after that

But like I don’t think whether you would have voted him matters hugely, no offence

And while I’m not remembering this the same as you, in a sense it’s immaterial to my broader point — Ofer flip NM there, the question is just are we (Dc!scum) likely to come under pressure the next day? I think the answer is nah

While we disagree on the viability of bulge the next day, I think that like, you, iverson, infinity would probably all look less town than us in that scenario so my point that ydra switching vote doesn’t make sense for scum!us still holds

[Disaster Cartel]

Sorry for the spam posting but I’m on mobile and I’m absolutely not trying to format a wallpost response

[Disaster Cartel]

Oh but if Disaster is town i dont think there's any hope for me anymore so there's that

Town loses if we get flipped, this is lylo, which I’m p sure ur aware of

[Disaster Cartel]

SCENARIO 1: we bus NM. the next day, we lim bulge. mom leaves. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. we look p good for having bussed NM all the way through and the day probably goes smoothly.

SCENARIO 2: we kill bulge. NM leaves. mom is limmed. we're in mylo with two town gone and 3 scum gone. the game is a horrible fucking shitfest because our correct push on NM is undermined by having jumped off him to vote bulge despite there being exactly no need to.

let me be very clear: unless you think that we couldn't lim bulge the next day in scenario (1) the two worlds are functionally no different in terms of who is alive. the basically ONLY difference is how we're perceived. so do you disagree that bulge would have been very limmable the next day, or do you not? and if you don't, why did ydra vote bulge? just to make this fun game a little bit extra challenging because it was too easy

This incorrectly assumes that the mom lim was a foregone conclusion from scum's PoV at the time. Bork was TRing her and others were trusting his reasoning.

I mean an additional scum had to go, right? Like inevitably another scum was leaving

Given how fucking brutal this game is and that mom was relatively consensus, I don’t think that’s a wrong assumption to make

[Disaster Cartel]

I have no idea what infinity is doing re: our slot atp

[Disaster Cartel]

I guess trying to have a progression on us? Probably? I suppose it doesn’t matter that much if she’s actually voting us or not given that she can just hammer but like still

Is weird

But it seems pointless to reconsider bc I really don’t see how the team is not MT/infinity given how they’ve played this day phase so far

[Disaster Cartel]

Ydrasse leans against Iverson....

so at this point in the day I dont think pushing Iverson is ever a winning plan. Was there another point in the day though, ill keep reading..

I can’t stay long today but I think this is a very weird thing to have in the middle of a post on why it’s DC/Vft

It’s under the spoiler in the post on why VFT supposedly couldn’t have pushed iverson yesterday which is like dubious altogether and I should have more time to breakdown exactly why tomorrow on laptop but for now

Yeah, weirdpog fam

Ydrasse leaning against iverson should matter exactly 0% of the time if VFT and I are teamed when it comes to whether skitt can push iverson for the win yesterday or not

[Disaster Cartel]

I mean we all get why right? If VFT and us are teamed it doesn’t matter what our stance is to whether we can vote there

All she needs to do is get two townies on with her (prob kismet and cakez) and for mom to vote there are some point

Even if we’re saying that we’re opposed, if we’re scum with her we can just vote while mom is online or wait for E-1

[Disaster Cartel]

I mean an additional scum had to go, right? Like inevitably another scum was leaving

Given how fucking brutal this game is and that mom was relatively consensus, I don’t think that’s a wrong assumption to make

Yes but what I'm saying is that scum would much rather safehouse NM than mom because NM will always get limmed later but mom will not necessarily.

They were always both gonna die infinity holy shit

The order is not particularly important!!

[Disaster Cartel]

Think about how much easier this lylo is if one of the scum here is replaced by either of mom or NM

To paraphrase our favourite finger snappin boi, it was inevitable

[Disaster Cartel]

Like I feel like you have to understand this

[Disaster Cartel]

The whole way you’re playing today is baffling to me

[Disaster Cartel]

Also, uh

[Disaster Cartel]

Mine, suck it ffery

You may have won the war, but the battle is mine

shut up, it still counts even if you weren’t online

[Disaster Cartel]

Okay folx it’s half an hour past midnight I’m turning in as I’m back at work tomo

Also looking forward to skitt getting back

[Disaster Cartel]

Very much so actually

Like you have no fucking idea

Someone who doesn’t make me want to headwall

[Disaster Cartel]

DO I SEEM VERY TOWN OR DO I SEEM LIKE IM LOLCATTING TO TRY AND KILL DISASTER WHY ARE THERE TWO VASTLY DISTINCT RESPONSES SPECIFICALLY COMING FROM DISASTER/VENUS VERSUS INFINITY/CAKES

WOW I HAVE NO IDEA MORNING MAYBE BECAUSE YOUR ENTIRE PLAY TODAY HAS BEEN BUILT AROUND PUSHING ME

[Disaster Cartel]

like this isn't complicated, it's far far far far easier to notice that someone is scum when they're actively pushing you and can't really justify it because you know the reasons are bad

[Disaster Cartel]

It just has to be DC and if it's DC there's only one plausible solution to me.

it's not a fucking solution to you so stop fucking acting like it is

I know you have to say this but it's still incredibly fucking aggravating

the reason it has to be me is because YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE if you don't get this done today here and now

[Disaster Cartel]

this game is fucking incredible

I really dont think i feel like this ever

Maybe two other games of mine ever i can think of had me as absolutely consumed

I don't think anyone town is enjoying this game fwiw

[Disaster Cartel]

mena immediately "knew" not only am i scum but im scum with infinity who is currently shitpushing him and leaves it at that

he also gave such bangers as "Morning takes too long to get excited about dc/venus" and "You're playing hard therefore scum"

Mena doesn't really give a shit abt solving me which speaks to either my opening somehow being literally fucking screaming openwolfing trying to get DC elimed at all costs (WHICH I WOULD NEVER DO, EVER) -- or Disaster is scum

Did my opening come off as an obvious agenda????? Infinity and Cakes didnt think so but to Disaster and Venus it's blindingly obvious so why is that?

I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM BECAUSE OF THE WAY IN WHICH YOU'RE PUSHING ME

AND BECAUSE I KNOW THAT IF YOU GET THIS THROUGH YOU WIN

THAT'S NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND

like in what sense is any of what you're saying fucking believable morning, Jesus Christ, it's obviously plausible that you enter trying to get me limmed at all costs because THAT'S WHA TYOU FUCKING DID

and for like the millionth time yes it's that fcking obvious bc of the fact that you're focussing on and pushing me. like do I need to cite examples of this? because I can

[Disaster Cartel]

THIS GAME RIGHT HERE

IT WASN'T OBVIOUS TO ANYONE ELSE THAT THE DUCK WAS SUCM BUT IT WAS TO ME BECUASE HE WAS SHITPUSHING ME

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82274

[Disaster Cartel]

like morning's entire play

literally, her entire play

is based around reframing the game to have a chance

because its not ENOUGH to just enter and push me to be able to win

she also has to undermine skitter somehow or other or it's just not going to happen. so she's running through like every way to make that happen. skitt has been like, very very town all game, even with paranoia. lili has done things which go beyond what I think she would do as scum

so morning pushes these two things simultaneously (1) that I'm scum and (2) that therefore skitt must also be scum

and is just focused on creating the *possibility* of the second in order to enable the first, that's very much all that matters because again

she just wins if she gets this through

she doesn't need to worry about how she looks tomorrow because there won't BE a tomorrow

[Disaster Cartel]

also, infinity, if town, would know I'm town by this point

I don't desperately want to get into why but the way scum are playing this I might have to even if it's verging on a trust tell

but the fact that infinity hasn't said anything about the "integrity of the game" being challenged or acknowledged that I'm town in any way for a major reason is also just like, almost being blatant about the fact that she's scum

[Disaster Cartel]

I always say that because I've done it once infinity

once, and it was because someone was being a dick to dats for tangentially game related reasons

but I see that you know exactly what I'm talking about

[Disaster Cartel]

and I'll add from that TM game this post:

Subject: TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

I'm also going to point out that mena's play is wildly unethical because there's no way he would be doing this as scum, so it basically makes him confirmed town, and he's aware of this, but I'm not complaining ig

[Disaster Cartel]

you know perfectly well that my emotionality isn't something that I have control over and you know very well that it makes me town this game

and if you were also town you'd have acknowledged that even if you would have tried to find some way around acting on it

and I was wondering if your whole "reconsider" was actually based on that and if you were going to get round to saying something along these lines but nope

because this game it's not convenient for you because this game, just like morning, you're not fucking town

[Disaster Cartel]

I cannot sleep because this game is so fucking stressful which is why I'm here posting at 7:30 am

[Disaster Cartel]

no because again I can't sleep right now because I feel so goddamn guilty about the fact that scum is in with a real shot at winning this because of my reputation as scum or what the fuck ever

and again, infinity, I don't care about convincing you because I know that convincing you is not on the table

my point is that WHEN YOU WERE TOWN you were very happy to acknowledge that what I'd done, while unpleasant and not something I'm proud of, made me town

here:stone fucking silence

now why might that be

[Disaster Cartel]

I think tweet's emotions are townier because I think you're the stronger scum player.

BASED ON WHAT

[Disaster Cartel]

yes, I who actively fucking detest scum and this is well known about me am here losing sleep over this game because of how much I care about my scumgame, of course

[Disaster Cartel]

And salsa was very towny

And prism was very towny

YOU JUST KEEP REPEATING TALKING POINTS JFC

like actually why

WHY were they town stop just saying things

like at least when I asked cakez he was able to go directly to prism's iso and show the posts and he's wrong but still at least there's substance there

[Disaster Cartel]

and morning, I might add, is doing the exact same fucking thing

people are town because they HAVE to be

they just MUST be

and I'm scum because I HAVE to be scum

[Disaster Cartel]

no offence but UGC was a walk int he fucking park because town played fucking terrible after D1, all I had to do was be a warm body that wasn't actively claiming scum, I got cleared for no reason after vanders flipped and ydra was like the only one who was paying attention and got limmed for it

I think my point inPyP was basically just "I'm not a fucking moron as scum and having done this would make me an idiot"

[Disaster Cartel]

also haven't you read my other scum games too

bc i'm pretty sure I saw links in ur TM iso to my scum-meta so like you should be aware this is not it

[Disaster Cartel]

I also deeply don't understand why you're unvoting me !?!?

[Disaster Cartel]

this is another point that's bothering me in the debate over "why hammer" and a very good reason is that there is no way that vote was staying there for more than a couple of hours at most because once I got back to thread there was no way I was leaving it on there

[Disaster Cartel]

ALSO @CAKEZ when you get here

you called me scum earlier today for trying to widen the limpool

what else is MT trying to do here with her VFT push other than exactly, openly, and obviously that

[Disaster Cartel]

like the only possible team without you in it is notsci and that just...doesnt make sense because why does morning double down so hard on me if ur town

like morning's play here makes sense almost exclusively to me if you're scum because she needs to both protect you and push a mislim to win and there is, imo, given the gamestate, no other viable miselim that she can angle onto apart from me

[Disaster Cartel]

I was already writing that when you asked

[Disaster Cartel]

like I just don't understand what you're doing today at all really but then morning only makes this much sense as scum WITH you so I'm not seeing how you're not but like fuck me dead

[Disaster Cartel]

I just want this game to be over tbh

[Disaster Cartel]

also I know that you said that you think it's scummy for ydra to not be here but can you really blame her like

this game is literally hell incarnate in a mafia form

I thought we were probably doomed after bulge!flip tbh and then it looked like a comeback and now I feel like it might be lost again and idk why but that just feels so unacceptable to me

like it's the conflict between I desperately just want this game to end and to consign it to history and ideally never have to think about it ever again

and the thing of I want so badly not to lose to someone who is basically open wolfing after like a month of effort and after getting this close from what just seemed utterly doomed position of watching two townlims back to back at the start

[Disaster Cartel]

fucking hell okay it's breakfast time I need to get up from bed and get ready for work

[Disaster Cartel]

Because morning is playing very hard and honestly I wasn’t really sure where you were stood on things, I thought you were a lot more up in the air

Also morning seems to be playing for a hard pocket on cakez and I think that if we no lim we lose, and I’m not sure if cakez is gonna make the right choice or not given that he’s had issues with me all game

[Disaster Cartel]

Like I don’t mean to come across as if I think it’s doomed

But it’s more like it would just be a heartbreaking loss and I’d feel especially responsible for like, not being able to make myself town enough for it to be sufficiently obvious to everyone that morning is scum

[Disaster Cartel]

Like I know this game is hard and it’s not on me entirely but like

I feel if I’d put more effort in earlier in the game and if I hadn’t had to move then we’d probably just be winning

[Disaster Cartel]

Although now I say that I guess if I were less mislimmable it might not be so obviously the play for scum to go hard on my miselim and I might be having to torture myself more over what the correct solve is so maybe it would just be hell either way

[Disaster Cartel]

I also regret taking a backseat on townleading here because I think that’s part of why I’m not TR as much as I should be and maybe could have avoided the nacho lim on D1 if I’d made a much stronger effort to do that

Idk

[Disaster Cartel]

Eh idk if I’m being skewed in my perception just from how much of the thread morning has taken up since she repped in

She’s done 100 posts in like 2 days so I just feel like every other second I’ve been in this thread I’ve been having to defend myself or try to explain what’s wrong with the angles she’s going for and it’s just exhausting

And like yeah you should check for me and skitt I guess it’s just also frustrating that this isn’t more obvious from an objective PoV and that’s why I feel ~concerned~ about the game

Yeah, I mean that would be good, but again I feel like cakez has been being stubborn all game. Like he’s talking to me now but I wasn’t exaggerating when I said I felt like he hadn’t talked to me for about 2 game days while either pushing me or having me in his solve that entire time (I think?)

[Disaster Cartel]

And yeah there’s like

A lot i wish I’d done differently but I guess that could be said by probably anyone here

I basically just thought that this game was so stacked that it would be easy regardless of scumteam and then.. nah

I think this is probably the hardest game I’ve ever played tbh, or at least definitely since I would consider myself a competent(ish) player

[Disaster Cartel]

Fighting scum!FL over like 2-3 days was maybe harder but that was like my 4th game on site and I had no clout whatsoever which made that much harder and more frustrating than I think it would be if we did it again today for instance