Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[RationalMadman]

RM how do you feel about the fact that your fight with Vex was just TvT? How dumb do you feel?

As dumb as he feels, or not, sunce feelings are irrelevant. How dumb do you feel about only winning 13% as scum? How dumb do you feel if you're Town this game and read wrong?

I was correct in my reasoning, Vex and Bambi both have extremely scummy Town metas that I am going to be hesitant to jump to conclusions about this game. Vex's reads on me make absolutely no sense and in every single way even on reread feel like scum latching onto any excuse to frame me.

[RationalMadman]

15% not 13%

[RationalMadman]

Anastasia told me it was 13% instead of 15% in our lover chat pregame, sorry about the confusion, I assume she'd said the same thing again.

[RationalMadman]

This game Vex appears to be acting similar to last game, extremely defensive, so I will default him to Town.

[RationalMadman]

also ana, do i have your permission to policy elim rm if they start trying to argue with me again about bullshit reasons

You're welcome to try, in my eyes you're the one who posted bullshit.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset isn't acting Towny at all and similar to lqst game is being reaction-provoking such as with Tbone in particular (last game). I scumread the Ker/Bingle pair.

[RationalMadman]

for my own sanity, i'm going to assume rm is town atm and completely ignore his posts for the rest of the game, because it seems like we're already going down the same path as before.

Ok and sorry about the pronouns

[RationalMadman]

5) what does win-rate or getting read wrong have to do with anything?

Someone with 13-15 winrate as scum is asking how dumb I feel over a game of mafia where I was in town vs town vote.

[RationalMadman]

3) bambi literally admitted to shitposting because she knew i would be able to clear ourselves, so last game is an inaccurate representation of her meta.

What is her meta then? She's posting irrelevant stuff again that is merely designed to be fluff that seems sociable.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset isn't acting Towny at all and similar to lqst game is being reaction-provoking such as with Tbone in particular (last game). I scumread the Ker/Bingle pair.

I will commit suicide if you say bad things about Kerset

That really isn't something to joke about.

[RationalMadman]

also once again, lovers please surmize your entire pt for us

Anastasia basically was posting about last game and nonsense in reply to me but she did agree with me one some things.

At first I asked who she was scum with since she mentioned that at the start, I was shocked she was scum but I didn't chat that much.

After she mentioned about how much she misses Kerset, I posted that I probably can't read Vex (you) and Bambi very well and also that I was curious if she knew some tells Kerset has, to which she replied with 2 sad gifs, such as the one she posted and this:


She didn't actually post many songs at all, she posted the 'almost lover' song though. I think she is essentially just trying to troll me.

One thing she did reply to and agreed with me is that Llama is very difficult to read, though what she replied to was me asking her how to read Llama since I didn't seem to understand what he did that was scummy (except overplaying his position of towniness and demanding we vote in VTs instead of Lovers knowing full well that he'd win the vote-off as things were then, which I said in the game).

I also said that I think I can read Bingle somewhat well and it comes down to the quality of Bingle's questions most likely as well as the logic used, though I don't think Anastasia was paying attention to most things I posted at all.

[RationalMadman]

I also urged her to try harder this game with reads and active posts but I think she has taken that as just posting more, instead of posting higher quality.

[RationalMadman]

After like four posts her only reply was that she found Llama scary too, so I stopped replying to her.

[RationalMadman]

To be clear there were six posts from me, one asked who she was scum with, the next spoke about how I clearly can't read Vex and Bambi well at all and also asked about how to read Kerset, then she replied sad gifs and the almost lover song (in three different posts, the song came with text about how badly she missed Kerset and found it adorable about the winrate thing and how I have big shoes to fill and the hole in her heart etc)

Then I posted four more posts about reads and strategy ideas but she just replied she found Llama scary too.

[RationalMadman]

To be fair I did use the term 'worried about' in my discussion about Llama, though I didn't say 'scary'.

[RationalMadman]

@mod are you releasing the old private threads?

[RationalMadman]

anastasia made the first post to our lover thread, in case you are confused why my first post asked her that.

[RationalMadman]

In her first post she said how distraught she was about Kerset not being her lover anymore and also let me know she was scum with Kerset and how adorable and cute he is. It wasn't until I replied to her that she really spoke about her missing Kerset and how in her mind Kerset is still her lover.

[RationalMadman]

There is very little to actually positively explain about our lover chat as it was 90% trolling from her you could say.

[RationalMadman]

with me one some things.

She agreed Llama is scary and in her earlier reply she agreed that Kerset is difficult to read and adorable and always will be to her.

So, actually she only agreed that Llama is scary.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset isn't acting Towny at all and similar to lqst game is being reaction-provoking such as with Tbone in particular (last game). I scumread the Ker/Bingle pair.

Point out the differences?

I think you mean the similarities. Which I did point out.

[RationalMadman]

This game, I have to admit I am hesitating a lot with my reads because everyone except Klick and Bingle I find have very odd metas and ways of being/acting either as scum or as Town so I have to guess.

What I currently gather is that Klick and T-bone's explanation of their lover thread is seemingly more natural and Towny than Kerset and Bingle's, I also like Klick's way of explaining it as it doesn't seem to apologise for how ridiculous and scummy that explanation/description seems and T-bone did the very same thing with less detail prior, it seems more organic than how Bingle and Kerset's is described but their description is also very short.

Anastasia's description of our own Lover thread is not very Towny-seeming so I am not sitting on a high horse here, however I would like to point out from an objective point of view that if I wasn't Anastasia's lover what I would townread from her is her activity level this game vs last, she seems far more engaged and responsive whereas last game it was largely a burst where she voted me and interacted there and then basically didn't afterwards.

I am wondering about some users, especially Bambi, and what exactly qualified as 'fluff' vs genuine posts from her (and others, including Vex). If I understand more about that, I may be able to put together a read in the Vanillas especially.

For now, I have genuinely got no real idea in the VT and for the Lovers, I'd vote Ker/Bing but that is a weak read, let me be clear.

[RationalMadman]

qualifies* not qualified

[RationalMadman]

I think you mean the similarities. Which I did point out.

I did in fact mean that.

I was more looking for specific posts you think are similar, though.

Spoiler:

RM how do you feel about the fact that your fight with Vex was just TvT? How dumb do you feel?

Blame yessir. He want us to suffer.

also ana/bambi what are both of you?

I am lover to RM so I'm kind of resigned to my fate of dying an early tragic death.

I just want to flirt with Kerset a bit more before I die.

Ironically i got bingle... :C

While 'similar' isn't concrete here, the tone is basically identical to Kerset's posting last game, except for the one interaction where Kerset mentions the mod spited him and Ana, since Kerset didn't talk about anything to do with anger or mod stuff last game.

The tone is casual, off-topic, reaction-igniting if actively towards a player (last game more so towards T-bone but also to you actually when Kerset sarcastically said how you were correct to disregard Vex's ISO spam of me which lacked analysis to it).

Absolutely nothing from Kerset feels different to last game's type of posting.

[RationalMadman]

rm, do you agree or disagree with their t-bone vote then as well?

Are you referring to Kerset last game when Kerset was scum and voted town T-bone?

I disagree with it in hindsight of course so I doubt that's what you're asking.

When Kerset voted T-bone I did have a feeling Llama was scum just based on raw instinct and that Llama's posts kept trying to over-tell Town (but it was so Towny that I struggled to scumread it and was too focused on battling you).

So, T-bone was a nullread all of last game for me and I didn't have a strong stance on Kerset's voting of T-bone and I kind of understood the reasoning of the vote even though I thought to myself T-bone could just be a player who likes to post nonsense from time to time as either alignment.

If you mean Bambi this game, I don't agree with the vote at all, it makes no sense to me as you haven't posted anything super Towny, just that you are very defensive or were early on and that matches the vibe if your previous posts last game.

[RationalMadman]

sorry, I made a huge error, Bambi has voted Klick, not T-bone. There is someone who voted T-bone and my brain confused the two, i am very sorry, however what I said can apply to Bambi's vote of Klick.

[RationalMadman]

can you first confirm what kerset said in your pt?

I am with Ana, not Kerset

[RationalMadman]

rm, do you agree or disagree with their t-bone vote then as well?

Kerset voting T-bone

this game

is not something I agree to, no. However, I don't 'not understand it' either, since Kerset seems to townread Ana by default it would seem (or is portraying that) so by Counterclaim-logic, it follows.

[RationalMadman]

we didn't discuss mechanical stuff, this setup has nothing mechanical about it.

[RationalMadman]

If you had a lover would you have gone over whether claiming lovers was optimal with them this time around?

Something I forgot to mention is that I actually did this but the opposite, I said we should just out this time (in the replies I posted after her images and rant about missing Kerset).

I said it only as a passing remark though and posted quite a bit but clearly she read it or just had the same idea as she outed instantly.

However, I agree with the idea that it was pointless to discuss that anymore, I knew every single member of this cast was heavily pro-outing and didn't want to cause an issue like last time where I ended up pitted Town vs Town even though that was only minimally due to that, the attention drawn to myself was counterproductive and ended up making me scumread a lover pair who scumread me for my logic, which included opposing outing and then outing when voted.

[RationalMadman]

plus the reasoning for asking about the lover pt discussion

I didn't ask about the lover pt discussion however I understood Town-reasoning to do this last game from Llama (even though he was scum) and this game from you because a vanilla townie asking all pairs to out their discussions shows curiosity and vanilla townies are in a position of higher curiosity by default.

[RationalMadman]

Well clearly 3 of us are lying. So to go with a theme if I want us to get the pairs first, let's get the last guy to appear.

VOTE: Klick

My stance is likely to change in like 5 pages but we gotta start somewhere.

Wait, now i know why I was confused about this vote, where on Earth is the logic that goes into voting Klick?

This may be why I confused the vote with T-bone but I am so confused right now, I honestly thought Bambi had indicate intent to vote the vanilla townie who wasn't vex earlier on. What led to vote Klick????

[RationalMadman]

i feel like i can confidently read klick when they come back, so i'm going to wait until they come before i cement my read on this. i can't dismiss the possibility that you two are just town and klick/tbone are just 4d chessing me atm

You also can't dismiss the idea that myself and Ana are scum, if we are going to state the obvious, which is something you like to do (but you did this as Town).

I also noticed that despite having a go at me for testing if you knew Lovers don't talk past D1, saying it was blatant from the PM, you said in your post last game of describing your lover PT, that you yourself had asked the very same thing to the mod. I noticed this last game after the lock happened so never got to post it, it seemed like a slip to me but it turns out there was actually a townslip that required the game to be reset in the same post so maybe I'm just not that observant.

[RationalMadman]

Better question:

RM, in our previous PT, did I give any indication of how to read Bambi or Vex, knowing full well that both Bambi and Vex are traditionally difficult reads?

No but this seems like something you're trying to force my hand on to get me to back you up here?

The conflict between Bambi and Vex vs myself only happened inside the game's DP1, not pregame.

[RationalMadman]

but also because you are actively refusing to listen to what i have to say, and trying to strawman my argument.

I sit in a position where I know your argument to be inherently wrong, and I'm not strawmanning it. I'm outright telling you there's nothing relevant to be discussed in the

mason thread

for this game.

I have emboldened what is likely a slip, however, I can factor in that Bingle is emotionally displaying severe stress and this could be a brainfart made as Town lover hypothetically. I am going to wait for a lot more interaction before voting, which was also my plan last game until the fiesta happened (due in part to me), I always wanted anlong Day Phase 1 because it lets more slips and reads occur, even more so if nobody outs initially but that's irrelevant this game since everyone has willingly outed.

[RationalMadman]

Because of that brainfart/slip I am absolutely certain that Vex vs Bingle+Ker isn't a bus relationship, it's authentic.

[RationalMadman]

I have emboldened what is likely a slip, however, I can factor in that Bingle is emotionally displaying severe stress and this could be a brainfart made as Town lover hypothetically. I am going to wait for a lot more interaction before voting, which was also my plan last game until the fiesta happened (due in part to me), I always wanted anlong Day Phase 1 because it lets more slips and reads occur, even more so if nobody outs initially but that's irrelevant this game since everyone has willingly outed.

The lovers are mechanically masons, that's not a slip.

Mechanically neighbors but I can understand the logic, so you genuinely meant mason thread?

[RationalMadman]

But the mod hasn't confirmed anything, they can't recruit and as Bingle just mentioned, he considers Lovers to be hydra, not masons when using another term. Vex defending it is strange here.

[RationalMadman]

Lovers can be scum via the setup Mod provides.

[RationalMadman]

Masons are mod confirmed to be Town. Lovers, in this game, are Mod neutral.

[RationalMadman]

What a weird argument to be having, why call it mason thread instead of lover thread and deny it was an error?

[RationalMadman]

I never said we have a cult, I need a break anyway this is getting ridiculous but I townread it being ridiculous because Vex is ridiculous as Town so honestly for me the Vanilla scum is between Bambi and Llama. Vex is more likely Town for suddenly defending Bingle after scumreading Bingle over a genuine error that I can't believe isn't either an accident or a genuine slip made by someone trying to lie and coming up with the wrong role name... Yeah, I think I have no choice to Townread this kind of flipflop by Vex, since it fits with their Town meta last game, as does the tunneling nature of the original interaction.

I will take a break for around two hours at least.

[RationalMadman]

Because of that brainfart/slip I am absolutely certain that Vex vs Bingle+Ker isn't a bus relationship, it's authentic.

do you think i would bus a partner in this setup?

Of course, it's perfect towncred to hypercarry. Would you? Of course but definitely? Depends on many factors.

[RationalMadman]

I didn't say Cultists can't convert, I said Lovers can't unlike sime forms of Mason which is a mechanical difference.

I also am quite sure it's a slip still but waa open to give the benefit of doubt. If you're scum and followed the mental oarh 'I wanna refer tonthe thread the Town pair use' and were under severe pressure, you'd probably alip away ng 'mason thread' especially of it felt mechanically identical to you. Why would Bingle as a Lover not say Lover thread? He never said mason PT until then correct? I am genuinely asking I may have missed it this or last game somewhere.

[RationalMadman]

Slip saying* 'mason thread*

*Path

[RationalMadman]

Mental path*

[RationalMadman]

I never said we have a cult, I need a break anyway this is getting ridiculous but I townread it being ridiculous because Vex is ridiculous as Town so honestly for me the Vanilla scum is between Bambi and Llama. Vex is more likely Town for suddenly defending Bingle after scumreading Bingle over a genuine error that I can't believe isn't either an accident or a genuine slip made by someone trying to lie and coming up with the wrong role name... Yeah, I think I have no choice to Townread this kind of flipflop by Vex, since it fits with their Town meta last game, as does the tunneling nature of the original interaction.

I will take a break for around two hours at least.

:thorface:

I'm either a scum lover or a town lover or an impressively massive idiot who managed to convince my scumteam to play a truly insanely ballsy gambit with no upside. How would my somehow forgetting my own role name be scum indicative?

No, Vex can be Town vs you as Scum. Pretty simple third alternative to a bus that still leaves you as Scum, what kind of retort is that anyway? Are you saying it's intuitive and more probable that you did this as Lover who called their Lover PT a Mason thread?

[RationalMadman]

Team is Ker/Bing and one of Bambi or Llama most probably.

However, Bingle outs an explicit townread on Bambi twice, idk why but this makes me wonder if he'd do that to jisbpartner... Bing/Ker/Llama is one viable team for sure and the one I'm thinking is the case rn but Bing/Ker/Bambi is just as viable.

Klick/T-bone/Vex is viable.

Vex thinks he's Towny when he types a lot and attacks+defends even flexing to me gow Townread he wasnlast game, so Vex as Scum probably just does the same thing but perhaps with less ferocity, which is the case this game.

[RationalMadman]

I feel the interaction between Klick and Llama was organic here in the last page's ending to this one, so I don't see them as a team. Bambi is viable on both teams and is posting very little other than fluff so far.

[RationalMadman]

Vex thinks

they're

Towny when

they

type a lot and attacks+defends even flexing to me gow Townread he was last game, so Vex as Scum probably just does the same thing but perhaps with less ferocity, which is the case this game.

I am very sorry for this error.

I have corrected pronouns.

[RationalMadman]

I've only just realised how difficult this game is for town. At first I thought this was pretty townsided because it's two sets of 2v1s and scum's wincon was to survive to the end of one of them. But actually, if town makes one mistake here, it's already MyLo/LyLo the next day. Scum definitely have the advantage in terms of their level of influence just due to sheer numbers.

It is initially townsided if it wasn't for the wincon of a lack of vanilla Townies resulting in autoloss for Town.

Because of that unique wincon, it means that the fake Lover and fake Vanilla both have equal chance to carry scum to victory.

The reason this is not Townsided is also that there is absolutely no investigative role.

The lack of night periods is also fair on Town because it allows equally for one wrong elimination of either trio (lover pairs or vanilla soloists)

[RationalMadman]

Vex thinks they're Towny when they type a lot and attacks+defends even flexing to me how Townread they were last game, so Vex as Scum probably just does the same thing but perhaps with less ferocity, which is the case this game.

One thing I'd like to add to this is that bussing doesn't interfere with town telling as scum, it compliments it incredibly well if you're the one to survive it.

[RationalMadman]

I town read Kerset's last two posts but I scumread Bingle this game especially after that reaction to calling it a mason thread.

I am willing to vote Bingle and Kerset if it is agreed that them flipping scum means we vote Bambi and Llama next. That is honestly the best path to victory.

If it's actually Klick and T-Bone I do not realistically know who the Goon amongst the solos is and therefore I want to wait for this vote because at present, I am not certain on my read in Lovers. It is best to let the vanillas contribute a lot more (well not Vex, the other two) so that Day Phase Two can reveal alot. I also am open to us voting Vanillas/solists instead of Lovers first, this also means if it's wrong Town is at less of an influence-deficit in terms of vocal players that can determine the next vote. I'd prefer today to be Bambi vs Llama as I am quite sure of the lone scum being between them.

[RationalMadman]

When I said last two, Kerset hadn't asked about towncase for Tbone, I townread that post as well.

[RationalMadman]

The flip won't reveal much for DP2 of we miseliminate here on lovers, with regards to vanilla claims, since two of them have barely interacted.

[RationalMadman]

And yes I just said I townread Vex on balance. Vex has behaved similar toblast game in multiple ways.

[RationalMadman]

I find it fascinating that literally 0 players have asked me why I’m townreading Bambi, and in fact most of you are avoiding reads entirely.

I didn't avoid it at all. I even said I scumread Bambi.

[RationalMadman]

I said I want today to be Bambi vs Llama

[RationalMadman]

No, Vex can be Town vs you as Scum. Pretty simple third alternative to a bus that still leaves you as Scum, what kind of retort is that anyway? Are you saying it's intuitive and more probable that you did this as Lover who called their Lover PT a Mason thread?

Vex’s alignment has literally nothing to do with the slip.

Regardless of anything else, my role pm has the word lover.

Regardless of anything else, the town lovers are functionally masons.

Literally no one agrees with your nonsense reason for tunneling me.

Maybe consider that, and then look at the thread again with an open mind.

I look at it with an open mind and can't fathom why you don't call it lover thread or PT. It could definitely be a slip of you forgetting what type of thread you had to fake but it could also be the stress of the situation causing you to type the wrong name. You never last or tjis game called it a mason thread until that point unless I'm missing something.

[RationalMadman]

I said I want today to be Bambi vs Llama

The hell? I literally just make a good readlist to help you but then you do this. Why not Vex?

Where did you do that?

[RationalMadman]

Vex has been the towniest Vanilla claim by far.

[RationalMadman]

If those 2 flip town though I'm more likely to still believe Tbone and Klick over RM and Ana.

What's the reasoning?

[RationalMadman]

How. In one post please not like 3 separate ones.

You and Llama haven't done a single Towny thing all game, you voting Klick made no sense whatsoever even as a random vote because you should random vote another vanilla claim.

Vex has been very defensive to begin with, then proceeded to tunnel another player/pair and again finds their (Vex's) logic and line of playing and thinking doesn't mesh well with Bingle's.

This all reads as Town Vex to me. However, last game this happened with Town Vex vs Town Bingle so the question is if Bingle is scum does Vex's natural logic not flow well with Bingle's. I don't know and I need to see more play out but if your question is why Vex is the towniest Vanilla claim, those are most of the reasons why.

[RationalMadman]

First real vote. Sorry Ana. Though rereading Tbone and Klick made me realize

we

got the same wavelength with them mostly.

What do you mean by 'we'?

[RationalMadman]

Also well done Vex for doing your job obvtowning last go, do it again pls.

This on its own could just be a jibe at me, yet if I put it together with later behaviour by Vex and how Klick has voted and read players, it makes me question quite a lot.

Klick easily says this no matter which alignment Vex is but does Klick say this as Town Klick?

[RationalMadman]

currently at work, will be posting intermittently.
@rm, bambi meant her and ana, in the quote you’re asking who she means we in

There is no way she actually meant that, I am with Ana.

[RationalMadman]

Tbone, Klick and Bambi. This is one team I suspect.

Kerset, Bingle and Llama is the other.

Of course this depends on many factors and relies on bussing not happening (but that is how to default reads, you don't default-read a bus).

If Vex is scum, I reckon it's with Klick and Tbone and there's not bussing occuring.

If Bambi is scum, it is actually possible a bus is happening vs Kerset, however I render that low probability and would always suspect Klick and Tbone over Kerset. The reason I think it may be a bus is dependent actually on how things play out from here to the end of DP1.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset and Bingle because I really think Bingle slipped saying Mason Thread and in general is being far more AtE than last game.

This ignores everything scummy about Klick and Tbone as well as that Kerset is towntelling in later posts.

[RationalMadman]

Why did you keep updated rainbowlist in your PT on previous iteration but not in this one?

Pedit oh

I didn't know we were allowed to refer to it since it went private again.

[RationalMadman]

Where

[RationalMadman]

You are right, it is still there. I got completely confused. I had assumed that what the 811s were were my previous and this.

I only noticed it the first time because it had unread.

[RationalMadman]

I jow see there are three not two

[RationalMadman]

Also the mod told me that things aren't being released until there's consent after redactions, so I assumed Vex's was being oulled from view and haven't looked back since, however I did look once and that time I confused myself assuming there were two, I have also read other PTs makimg it more confusing to me.

[RationalMadman]

Its more of a matter of no need to intentionally force yourself into a certain hole. I dont care who I see as best pick as scum, that is who is getting my vote. VT or Lover claim. We need scum on both sides dead.

I actually prefer vanilla unless I have a

very strong

scumread in lovers, which last game I thought I did. The reason is that it's safer to lose 1 Townie as a voice and vote than 2, think about the butterfly effect of the loss on the next day phase for Town. This is something I told Bingle in our chat that I think I didn't mention in last game's public description of our thread, I also said it's safer as a lover even more so because a miselimination is devastating and basically coinflips your victory (actually it's worse if you were the one pushing on the wrong elimination). Bingle did agree to that but said I only think that because I was a lover (I say 'was' of course it was 'am' in that situation).

In reality, I'd think this even as a vanilla and unfortunately, last game didn't get me to stay true to that ethos in practise because I was under extreme pressure from the get-go and scumread Vex and Bambi very strongly.

I also don't understand your question about the bandwagons, seems like stating the obvious to me. It's a primary reason I'm against rushing this vote-off since if it goes wrong we have absolutely no reads in the vanillas (or we didn't, now we're beginning to).

That being said, I scumread Bambi over you at this point. I am confused about the bandwagons as well, it makes no sense to be splitting votes inside a lover pair.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset and Bingle because I really think Bingle slipped saying Mason Thread and in general is being far more AtE than last game.

This ignores everything scummy about Klick and Tbone as well as that Kerset is towntelling in later posts.

The mason thing is so dumb considering nearly everyone is backing Bingle in that convo LOL

Everyone backing him has no impact on something being a slip or not. If everyone thinks a flower is a bicycle and my victory chance is increased by pointing out that it's actually a flower, I will do so. If everyone still ignores what I point out and allows the 'tell' or 'slip' to become negated, I will accept that too.

I even accept that the error could be made as either alignment, however I don't like how Bingle denies it was a mistake nor has Bingle replied to me explaining why he never ever called it a mason thread before in this or last game until that point.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset and Bingle because I really think Bingle slipped saying Mason Thread and in general is being far more AtE than last game.

This ignores everything scummy about Klick and Tbone as well as that Kerset is towntelling in later posts.

The mason thing is so dumb considering nearly everyone is backing Bingle in that convo LOL

Everyone backing him has no impact on something being a slip or not. If everyone thinks a flower is a bicycle and my victory chance is increased by pointing out that it's actually a flower, I will do so. If everyone still ignores what I point out and allows the 'tell' or 'slip' to become negated, I will accept that too.

I even accept that the error could be made as either alignment, however I don't like how Bingle denies it was a mistake nor has Bingle replied to me explaining why he never ever called it a mason thread before in this or last game until that point.

Because........

Its

Not

A

Mistake

Why has he not called it a mason thread at all until that point?

[RationalMadman]

Wrong about what? Be precise about what happened.

[RationalMadman]

There is *no* tell of any kind if its referred to as lovers/masons/etc... if you want to just pretend that town roles are "Town Mason Lovers" do that because that is what they are. This is horribly unproductive, distracting and anti-town that is just causing clutter and making the game harder to read because its sucking up so much attention.

It isn't me who keeps bringing it up, it's Tbone and others. If you got an issue with it and want me to drop it, drop it yourself.

If you bring it up, I am not gonna be a mouth-shut pussy about it, I guarantee that.

[RationalMadman]

Vote me then, I did nothing wrong.

[RationalMadman]

After you vote us off, vote Bambi and Klick + Tbone since if Bambi is scum, it's actually less likely that Kerset and Bingle are.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Bambi

[RationalMadman]

Today we must vote Bambi, there is no way she is Town and jumping voyes and reads like this.

[RationalMadman]

I firmly scumreas Bambi now.

[RationalMadman]

It is sad that Ana is barely contributing now, I would want to see which pair she suspects more and why (not just this Kerset roleplay).

I'm not voting Vex this day phase, it's not a bandwagon I will be participating in so if nobody else will vote Bambi, I will consider that the pair Ana suspects is worth voting as it's a vote from someone that's 100% Town to me.

Right now there's many contingency-reads to be having depending whether or not scum is voting or Town is voting. I don't townread Klick and Tbone at all but I also scumread Bingle very mucj, this game and the quality of questions Bingle is asking are weak/low compared to last game. The appealing to emotions screams scum to me, especially from such an experienced player.

Kerset is actually the Towniest lover in my eyes which is a mind-torturing contradiction for me since Bingle is the scummiest. This is why I am interested to see who the vanillas all three vote (including Llama) and then interpolate their flip into reading and estimating the pairs.

Bambi has clashed least with Klick and Tbone.
Llama has said he townreads Ana and I, then proceeded to allude to something saying no matter what alignment I am, to drop a subject (strange way to phrase it).
Vex has clashed most with Bingle and Kerset, least with Klick and Tbone and medium with myself (Ana I don't see a significant clash with from Vex and they've townread Ana and myself despite the clashes).


Naturally, I am already naturally suspicious of Bambi for this especially as the basis of her reads and clashes seem shallow.

Within the lovers, a lot depends on which vanillas are Town or Scum as then certain interactions can properly be read into vs being theatre or Scum baiting a reaction from Town and vice versa.

[RationalMadman]

Llama could equally be with either of the other pairs tbh, I slightly think Llama with Kerset and Bingleakes more sense because of other interactions and the gap they leave. Kerset and Bingle have effectively clashed with bith vanillas except Llama.

[RationalMadman]

RM i have strange feeling that you like be because i didnt make fun of your thoughts like others did. Are you vulnerable to pocketing?

Everyone is vulnerable to pocketing because those that try their best not to be are vulnerable to townread being treated harsh and/or indifferent.

As for why I townread you, it's because if your reply to Bambi asking about quotes regarding klick and tbone, which never got answered and that you've consistently acted pro-inquisitive. Whether or not I'm also manipulated by your lack of resistance to me, it remains.

Last game I had someone after me over nothing that I scumread hard for it, you weren't fighting me hard and I lmew your pair were going to ve a significant swingvote so I was pocketed by you out of necessity for me to pocket you if I wanted Vex and Bambi eliminated. Sometimes pocketing works both ways. This game, I have very little need to rely on you to avoid being eliminated since many townread my lover pair, therefore there's less motive to need to care and reward you being nice to me.

It's stupid to try and never be pocketed, if you can't reward people for not going after you, you'll instead need to cower to those who are or get eliminated and the latter is far less strategic regardless of alignment.

I actually find it odd that you did not defend Bingle when I said he called it a mason thread because it seemed like you didn't want to do it so that it avoids you looking like you're overly buddying your own partner (which wouldn't be something to worry about as Town lover) but it also may be because you didn't care about it since you were confident others and Bingle would shut me down, which is pragmatic regardless of your alignment. You have done much more than any other lover pair than my own toward progress in the game, which has primarily been led by Vex, yourself and me. So, I townread that.

[RationalMadman]

as an addendum to that as well:
@kerset, please explain to me why i wouldn't want to look confident in myself, in a game all about persuading others you are not trying to deceive them.

Arrogance is a playstyle trait but by no means an automatically optimal one. I would kniw.

[RationalMadman]

also last game i was correct bambi was town, hence the “i can read a player who is very similar to me”

Is this a joke? LOL Bambi was your Lover.

[RationalMadman]

now that i’ve gotten home, i actually see that kerset was replying specifically to my ability to read someone who’s playstyle is similar to mine. i still don’t know how you misread *that* badly

I didn't misread that badly, I asked if you were joking to which you replied in a condescending manner so I wonder which of us read the other's tone badly.

[RationalMadman]

Nice slip, you admitted you know I am Town this game but therefore my read is correct.

[RationalMadman]

^ that's a joke in case you misread me, however I do think it had an undertone to make me less confident in my read on Bambi.

[RationalMadman]

Well I meant my previous post not the vote count

[RationalMadman]

@mod this is an insult ^

[RationalMadman]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

[RationalMadman]

I would like to remind everyone that we must vote someone or interrogate.

I think today is Bambi vs Llama but now some are saying Vex. Then, in lovers, I have Bingle as scum but his partner as Town. Klick and Tbone nulltell all game.

Very difficult but Bambi is my choice still, I don't follow the logic of her reads.

So what is your thought then on Vex seemingly to prefer a vote on me when they claim that I cant be read, but Bambi can? Do you agree that it seems that if Vex is town, the correct approach would be to read Bambi and then use that to form an opinion on me? Otherwise its just voting town out first followed by saying "By PoE Bambi is scum". Thats not reading Bambi.

Vex has faulty reasoning of many kinds. I have known that from the start of last game through to now. I don't scumread the faulty reasoning because if Vex is scum here it's easier to pretend to go with the vote I want on Bambi than go for you. I don't really understand Vex's reasoning at all in almost any situation, I just roll with it.

In fact, I don't even know if anyone in this game in particular other than myself has properly reasoned their reads except for Kerset, which is why I am severely struggling to understand which lover pair is scummier as I expect far more from Town Bingle than what's happened here but Kerset is possibly the single Towniest Lover excluding myself. I can follow Kerset's reads and question-lines very well. Everyone else makes no sense to me, Vex included.

[RationalMadman]

Not possibly* definitely

[RationalMadman]

Best wishes to all players who are feeling down and/or sick.

When feeling up to it we must pressure each other. The more pressure, the more slips and tells can occur. The relaxed atmosphere happening right here benefits Scum only, unless by luck only Town is active (even then, it's not beneficial as lurkers remain unreadable factors).

[RationalMadman]

Can I get all lover pairs opinions on the RM/Ana duo?

When you say 'all' I am assuming you don't mean our own opinion.

Ana hasn't been active enough to towntell but I assure you we are Town, though it is possible you know that if you are not.

[RationalMadman]

Feels like we are quickly moving towards Vex vs Bingle/Kers vs Tbone/Klick though. People need to start being clear about which of those is what they want most.

I have changed my mind on the pair I scumread more, I want Klick and Tbone pair eliminated out of the pairs but it is a very close call.

I am basing that vote on Kerset more than on any of the other three.

[RationalMadman]

Kerset has towntold in my eyes, all other three either nulltell or lean scum.

[RationalMadman]

Ana's plan is not a good plan, it won't end up with a Bambi elimination.

I don't care about that she wants to punish Llama for being a good player, I care that Bambi won't end up voted off on that plan.

I don't really care what we plan, I just want my scumreads eliminated. Bambi, Klick and Tbone are the most probable team at the moment for me.

Assuming that's wrong, I think that Vex, Klick and Tbone is viable as well as Llama with either pair. There is no use punishing Llama for a vote on Vex being wrong when Bambi is the least towny vanilla of them all in the first place.

All Bambi has done this game is post generic things with no reads at all. Last game Bambi was nervous to vote anyone, this game she is happy to vote EVERYONE, though her vote on Klick was more of a joke random vote.

The best move here is to either vote Bambi or vote Klick and Tbone because if Bambi flips Town, I am quite sure that Kerset and Bingle are the pair. I will reveal why later, it comes down to several interactions. The only way this is wrong is if Bambi has intentionally set out to give off distanced tells with a bus as part of the overall scum strategy. If you observe Klick and Tbone with Bambi it's almost like they are working around each other with no clash, that is how partners tend to be when they don't feel pressure to distance.

If Bambi flips scum, I am sure the partners are Klick and Tbone.

Alternatively, if we go ahead with this Vex elimination and Vex flips Town, we have revealed extremely little about the pairs of lovers, Llama and Bambi being left makes both pairs pretty damn viable.

If we eliminate Llama today, it is almost as good as Bambi because Vex and Bambi have even more polarisation than Llama and Bambi vs the pairs but I want a Bambi elim because Bambi is my scumread and in the end that is all that matters to me, we can talk this plan and that plan but in the end it's just a cover-up for the truth; I don't care if llama is the best player on the planet, if I townread Llama over Bambi, I will not unnecessarily do some weird 'vote correct or we vote you next' threat, especially not when Bambi is who Llama wants to leave alive.

[RationalMadman]

Bambi flips Town, I am quite sure that Kerset and Bingle are the pair.

To be clear, this means 'scum pair' when I say 'the pair'.

[RationalMadman]

The only way this is wrong is if Bambi has intentionally set out to give off distanced tells with a bus as part of the overall scum strategy

Sorry, this is backwards logic, what I meant was that the only way scum-Bambi isn't with scum-Klick-and-Tbone is if scum-Bambi and scum-Kerset-and-Bingle set out to distance.

There is an extreme polarisation going on two-way where Kerset and Bambi have interacted in ways partners would not, starting with the vote Bambi placed on Kerset. Conversely, Kerset responded to Bambi's vote on her in ways that imply Kerset to be town but is also how scum would reply to known-Town.

It involves more, if you go to interactions between Bambi and Kerset, it is not partner-like from either end.

Klick and Tbone can be scum if Bambi is Town, I realise I wrote a wrong logical sequence here, however it is unlikely but that is due to other interactions or lack thereof. I feel scum Klick and Tbone would interact far more with Town Bambi in some situations that have arisen thus far, instead it's like they avoid each other.

[RationalMadman]

If I am wrong then vote your scumread in the vanillas. You are the one afraid to vote, not me. I don't need to blame Llama for the vote being wrong, Llama is one player in the game, I am responsible for my vote and read and Bambi is responsible for her towntelling or scumtelling. If I vote wrong, it's my and Bambi's fault, not Llama's.

If you think Vex is scum, vote Vex, if you think anyone is scum, vote them.

Blaming a scapegoat for things when we miseliminate is a coward's way of avoiding responsibility for their vote being accurate and their fault. Even if everyone screams at you to vote someone that you Townread, even if they threaten to eliminate you if you don't, you must have an open mind and respond to the pressure solely with the intent to get scumreads eliminated or die yourself rather than eliminate scum, caving into the others and getting eliminated the next day phase as you're blamed if it goes wrong.

[RationalMadman]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

[RationalMadman]

rather than eliminate scum,

This was not a typo even. Even if you townread scum, you must be ready for your read to be wrong and still stand by it if it's a strong read. You need to force yourself to make tough calls in this game or you will never learn from your mistakes and grow as a cutthroat player.

OOC: This Makes You A Bad Player (tm)

You cannot stand by a "strong read" on a town flipped player LOL. That it the hallmark of bad play LOL

You completely misread what I wrote. Nobody has flipped yet in the situation I described.

[RationalMadman]

If you can't stand by a read that's wrong, just because it flioped the way you didn't expect, you aren't forcing yoyrself to get rewarded or punished and won't be able to improve the reasoning behind your reads.

Idk what excuse you mean. If you vote someone and they flip Town, you say what? What are you even trying to say?

[RationalMadman]

You say 'my bad' and reevaluate why your read was wrong, and thus reevaluate the other reads you have.

Exactly, you don't unvote beforehand or vote a townread beforehand because you're too scared your read is wrong.

[RationalMadman]

I'll say this now and pick up later,

If the vote on Bambi doesn't gain momentum, I am open to voting either pair and I do mean either. So, if you are all planning to vote Vex especially, I am going to resist it.

Vex has been Towntelling by activity and tendency to tunnel. However, if Vex's refusal to vote Bambi is what results in their downfall, then frankly I don't care.

I am very sure Bambi is the Goon, the lover pair I slightly suspect is Klick and Tbone but I genuinely can't tell. Bingle was asking much better questions and arguing farore ferocious last game as a Town Lover. This game he's still trying I guess but he seems to generically be thrpwong shade here and there (such as on Tbone) while randomly townreading someone like Bambi for something I don't understand how it's Towny. O actually am confused what Bingle explained he townreads Bambi for, is it the Klick vote? I read his explanation and didn't quite understand.

[RationalMadman]

I am probably the most townie looking player in this game right now

No you are absolutely not.

[RationalMadman]

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

Why are you appealing to those two Vanilla claims when Vex is the one voting Bingle? You already know Bambi was willing to vote Kerset so you know that Bambi naturally will join you yet you didn't mention Vex. If you think Vex is the Scum among the claims then why not vote Vex who already has two on themselves?

This shows me you are merely saying it for show.

UNVOTE: Bambi
VOTE: T-bone

[RationalMadman]

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

Scumread. While Ana is pretty okay, RM is not. If it weren't for lovers I'd probably rank scum to town as Kerset>RM>Bingle>Ana honestly.

Justify those reads, so far the only thing you said is Kerset asked you questions you could answer while you didn't like Kerset's answers to yours.

[RationalMadman]

I don't get the same feeling from your posts now. It could be that you're just now more passive because you no longer have a plan to execute. But there's no denying the tone and tenor of your posts from game 1 to game 2 are different significantly.

You just told me you townread Bambi a few posts ago.

[RationalMadman]

Also well done Vex for doing your job obvtowning last go,

do it again pls

.

Another reason (I already said this in an earlier post) that the Klick and T-bone pair irk me is this post. This post implies Klick knew Vex was town or alternatively was Klick merely taking/making a jibe at me regarding that I scumread 'obvtown' and was going to lose the vote-off last game.

Obviously, this is inconclusive, Scum Klick even could do this with Scum Vex as an intentional forced interaction but I don't understand what it meant. I did say this a few pages back:

Also well done Vex for doing your job obvtowning last go, do it again pls.

This on its own could just be a jibe at me, yet if I put it together with later behaviour by Vex and how Klick has voted and read players, it makes me question quite a lot.

Klick easily says this no matter which alignment Vex is but does Klick say this as Town Klick?

I don't understand it though, what exactly was the intent behind the statement, why would Klick as Town Lover risk saying that about potential Goon? Klick seems extremely disinterested in this game but that is NAI, especially as she claims to be sick and busy. It does, however, add up together to make me have to rely on Tbone to reveal the alignment of the team, which in no shape or form reads as Town to me.

Tbone has even begun to say odd things (like not @'ing Vex when asking vanilla claims to join him voting Kerset as well as saying he Townreads Bambi only to now say her vibe is totally different to last game while Llama's is too, which implies he should townread Llama the most out of VTs and scum-lean Bambi).

[RationalMadman]

I don't get the same feeling from your posts now. It could be that you're just now more passive because you no longer have a plan to execute. But there's no denying the tone and tenor of your posts from game 1 to game 2 are different significantly.

You just told me you townread Bambi a few posts ago.

Okay? Voice your entire conclusion please.

My conclusion on that one thing? Leans scum.

Everything you have said this game leans null or scum, you now suddenly said I am scummy out of nowhere and that Ana is the only reason you aren't voting my pair, that sounds to me like preparation for this vote (on Kerset) resulting in Town elimination and you saying 'ah, well I kind of always scumread RM and here is why'. Make your case right now and vote me instead of preparing a tangent like that.

How has Ana been the towniest lover? Really, how? I know she is Town but even I, at this point, would begin to question her alignment if I wasn't with her. She has suddenly become very quiet and disinterested in the game, which matches her scum meta of last game, though I agree she is Townier in her post-content than last game and was Towny earlier on.

I am still curious of your order:

You say, Kerset>me>Bingle>Ana

but in your shoes, I don't get how that read order makes sense, why is Bingle towny for instance, such that he's read Town over me?

[RationalMadman]

Tbone has even begun to say odd things (like not @'ing Vex when asking vanilla claims to join him voting Kerset as well as saying he Townreads Bambi only to now say her vibe is totally different to last game while Llama's is too, which implies he should townread Llama the most out of VTs and scum-lean Bambi).

Do you stand by this observation?

Is that a joke? I am voting you. How much more could I stand by it?

[RationalMadman]

So to be clear, your contention is that in #614 and #616 is that I flipflopped on Bambi, with the quote you pulled from my 609. Yes or no?

The answer is 100% clear from my previous posts.

The answer cannot be no, there is no way your brain is even considering that.

[RationalMadman]

Why do you read Bambi as Town if she has changed her vibe entirely from a game where she was Town. That makes absolutely no sense. Your reasoning is the opposite to what your stated reads are.

[RationalMadman]

In #609, the post I qouted was from Vex, responding to Vex, about my read on Vex, and the quote you pulled was about Vex.

So...are you giving a fake read to justify your vote?

You are actually correct, this was a big error by me. I thought you had replied to Bambi for some reason.

I do not understand why you townread her though. Bambi has a very different vibe to last game.

I accept that I made a huge error and you were actually replying to Vex but I do not accept that I would intentionally make that kind of error as Scum just to frame you, that would be idiotic to the highest degree and I don't follow how you could think that I would do that.

I do admit that I just made a huge error but Vex's tone has been extremely similar to last game so I somehow assumed you were talking about Bambi and saw her reply above you and my brain fucked up in the middle of what I was reading.

I don't understand why you are not pushing on Bambi at all though and vice versa. In fact, Bambi hasn't pushed on any player with a good reason so far, especially when she pushed on me.

[RationalMadman]

I did not go back and read it, I knew exactly what I meant and didn't understand why you were asking me to clarify it.

[RationalMadman]

Even if I am voted here for that, I want to say that Vex's vibe is

not

totally different to last game. Vex was extremely defensive, hostile and tunneling in the early part of this Day Phase. The only thing that's different is that since then, Vex seems more apathetic. That doesn't make sense to me as an accurate read and I believe that Tbone and Klick are the scum.

If Tbone thinks

Vex

is Scum of the Vanillas, does he read the situation of Vex vs Bingle as a bussing drama?

[RationalMadman]

I'll ask you since Kerset refuses. When Kerset is repeating something they did as scum from the previous game, what am I supposed to think?

Why is Kerset trying to provoke additional content to help read people? I feel like that is pretty self explanatory. I also feel like thinking Klick/Bambi/VV/Ana are light on content is still reasonable and that thinking you were light on content when you two started this whole back and forth was reasonable.

Looking at the other thread, I also don't think Kerset is super similar, but I'm pretty biased in that I know there was an alignment change there.

If you had to put together the team, meaning you had to name and explain the Vanilla relative to the pair, who and why?

I read it as Bambi and have the same pair-read, obviously (the obvious part is both but more so that I scumread Tbone/Klick's pair).

The reason is that Tbone and Bambi seem to avoid clashing at all, Klick and Bambi (excluding Bambi's random vote) are doing the same.

This kind of mutual avoidance of grilling one another reads as scum partners to me.

[RationalMadman]

Vex was extremely defensive, hostile and tunneling in the early part of this Day Phase.
The only thing that's different is that since then, Vex seems more apathetic.

If Tbone thinks

Vex

is Scum of the Vanillas, does he read the situation of Vex vs Bingle as a bussing drama?

As for Vex, I disagree with your assessment. That's just what it is.

Do you disagree to the lines I said or the first sentence's claim that their vibe isn't totally different?

If you agree to what I said but not to the vibe, why?

Also, please answer the bussing question. I don't think Bingle would have reacted as strongly as he did if it was just for a bus, I genuinely believe scum-Bingle = town-Vex, obviously both can be Town and scum-Vex can be present with town-Bingle, what is the team in your conclusion? At the moment I believe your stated read is Bingle/Kerset-pair + Vex

Also, if you do consider me scummier than Bingle, what makes your scumread on Kerset stronger? In the hypothetical that I am scum, who is my Goon out of the Vanilla claims and why?

I want to understand your thinking.

[RationalMadman]

@RM - Please list all the individual lover slots (not as pairs) as scummiest to most likely to be town.

Tbone>Bingle=?Klick>Kerset

I genuinely rank Bingle equal to Klick. Bingle's entire way of posting feels 100% defensive and reactionary this game, last game he was also kind of that way but with much more spice and good questions to really expose (or try to expose) the other's thought process as being either flawed or something he could townread.

This game, I don't feel remotely interrogated by Bingle despite this game being what Vex/Bambi and Ana/Kerset were to Bingle last game.

On the other hand, Bingle is trying and apart from the one thing you don't want me to bring up, there's been no direct slip of any kind.

Kerset has been constructive as the day progressed, initially Kerset wasn't Towny in my eyes (more null or even leaning scum) but over time, I came to really spot moments where Kerset was asking questions and reacting to things, such as Bambi's vote on them (assuming they/them pronouns) and this made me Townread Kerset the most of the four Lover claims outside my pair.

Klick has been a completely neutral and unreadable individual, I cannot genuinely confirm either way, I would think Klick is scum here because last game when Klick did become active as a genuine Vanilla (I know she's not claiming vanilla, that's not the point, she was Town) she began to really go for the kill with me (though I wasn't Scum, she seemed very keen to get the ball rolling, this game that is not there).

Tbone seems keen to latch onto anything to seem like he's asking a good question. Some of the things he is asking or even saying don't make any sense to me at all. He is saying Vex's vibe is totally different to last game, that Bambi is somehow towny and that Kerset is scum for not answering him on something that I literally saw Kerset try to answer at times but he claims Kerset is avoiding.

[RationalMadman]

I think you're smart enough, if you did draw scum, to try and play up the way you acted the first game in order to get those town reads. Am I wrong in thinking you are capable of this?

Why would I say no?

This is a very loaded question from so many angles.

I do not present myself as someone who doubts themselves too much, so of course I believe I would play well as Scum and not 'switch up' how I play too much. I also wouldn't 'switch up' how I play as Town too much either.

I did switch up one thing though, which I am surprised nobody has pointed out, I have been very hesitant (until this real life past day) to vote a Lover, that doesn't match my meta last game at all. However, I can justify that if you want.

Your question is obvious with an obvious answer, why would I answer 'no I would play so different and not realise people would Townread me playing similar'. This has some very odd agenda behind it but you could have a corrupt agenda as Town here (potentially) to make me admit something to use against me later (so I don't scumread the agenda itself). What I don't understand is why you asked such an obvious thing that has an added 'hint' to it.

I don't even understand how most people in this cast read others, actually almost all of them potentially. I read people based on 'flow' like how their flow throughout the day phases and general behaviour matches to what I think scum or Town would do. I rarely go solely for specific 'quote and that's scum' unless I think I have spotted a true slip of some kind.

[RationalMadman]

I mean why would I say 'yes you are wrong'*

[RationalMadman]

I like how everyone is either: arguing to determine the scum, declaring to be busy or being Bambi. Her uninterested approach in recent pages is such obv scum behavior.

She is not even trying to hide lack of need to solve.

Are you going with the Ration school of thought by saying Bambi isn't doing anything when I clearly am?

How am I disinterested in solving?

Where is your solving?

Why aren't you voting me if you think I am bullshitting?

[RationalMadman]

Because I have better people to solve and talk too and if I talk to you directly too much I'll be distracted and focus hard on going after you. Your playstyle doesn't mesh with mine so I'm putting you in the proverbial corner while I talk to others.

My current solve is Bingle/Kerset going then RM/Ana going for the pairs. For the singles it's Vex then Llama but that one seems more likely it's just Vex.

Why are Klick and Tbone town to you? Your 'solve' for singles is a 100% guaranteed 'solve' if you are Town, obviously if you are a real Vanilla Townie then the other 2 claims need to be voted off to guarantee scum would be voted.

[RationalMadman]

And I am excited to vote you out simce I am quite sure you are scum with Tbone.

[RationalMadman]

With Tbone and Bambi*

[RationalMadman]

Well, you say you're voting Kerset and that if Kerset+Bingle flip Town, you're voting me+Ana. Therefore I can say the exact same to you (that are definitely wrong the second time if it comes and are probably wrong the first).

It's sad that these three posts are the only content for the past real life day or whatever.

[RationalMadman]

Scum don't care which pool they eliminate in first because they already know that they need to win one of the 2v1s fully and it doesn't matter which, AND that they get the shot at winning both of them, sequentially.

I actually said the opposite to what Tbone said (I saod that Town Lovers should push on Vanillas to avoid misfiring Lovers and being framed) by the way, not the same, though the way it was framed is extremely similar as I was saying the 50% chance to misfire makes it safer to push on Vanillas as Town Lover.

You say Scum don't care which pool becuase both are viable and that this is true because Scum can win either 1v2 but Town perspective is not only the same, they have 2v1 in either pool and under your logic should have even less bias which pool they eliminate in.

In other words, what I am saying here is that there is no right or wrong perspective with regards to where to initiate pressure out of the two trios, regardless of alignment. It coems down to the situation and if any strong read appears.

[RationalMadman]

To misfire and kill 2 voices and votes of Town is actually worse than 66.7% chance to eliminate one Townie, think of the butterfly effect. Only if it's forced hy others or a strong read is had should Town Lovers risk it in the Lover CCs.

[RationalMadman]

I risk because now it's clear nobody is willing to vote off a Vanilla except the one Vanillas I town read (Vec Vience)

[RationalMadman]

Vex*

[RationalMadman]

@RM/TBone - Can you just make a quick summary on why who you are voting is scum here?

No I can't, I can only make a long one so I will do that.

Tone fluctuation

viewtopic.php?p=12768126&user_select%5B ... #p12768126

Just see some things here, Tbone fluctuates between aggressive and friendly (happy-go-lucky) throughout the entire day phase. It is implying to me an act is happening, all day long.

This leads me to my next red flag

OMG you did this... yeah, I townread you.

From Bambi to Bingle (opposite way around with Bingle) to me, there is something very off with how Tbone is reading players.

He goes from noticing Bambi saying the thing about Klick and Tbone being lovers to never mentioning it again until Bingle brought it up, to hard-defending Bingle calling the thread lovers chat in a mason thread under extreme pressure. Then Tbone says I am potentially faking a read on Bingle since Tbone mentioned being masons before with another player in his first post of the game yet I didn't scumread that.

So if you're scumreading Bingle and townreading me based on that nonsense.... maybe you're giving a fake read, bruh.

In fact, Tbone even says this:

The dishonesty towards Bingle is actively making him look town, and to this point, I thought his pair was the scum pair.

At a certain point though I feel it stops being a communication barrier and starts to feel intentional.

Yet in action he ends up avoiding me and Ana for the remainder of the day phase until voting Kerset, then saying I am slipping and then still remaining focused on the Bingle/Kerset duo as scum with no reason to townread me based on what he says he perceives the game to be.

Now, how about this read and reply to you?

At this point, I'd like Llama and Bambi to join Klick and I on this vote.

@llama

@bambi

obnoxious @ symbol posts to ping you is a go!

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

Scumread. While Ana is pretty okay, RM is not. If it weren't for lovers I'd probably rank scum to town as Kerset>RM>Bingle>

Ana

honestly.

What? How is Ana towniest? If Ana is Towniest, what is it Bingle did in his eyes to earn the scummier position than Ana who has effectively done nothing? Note, Tbone dodges me and even Ana herself asking him why he reads her as Towniest.

Now, I want too observe how Tbone interacts with Kerset prior to voting them.

He goes from this:

T-Bone, is it your meta to talk just about mech staff? No votes, no interrogations.

I can vote for you if that would make you feel better?? I'm not in a rush personally, I'm trying to solve some alignments.

To actually only asking Kerset 2 questions from what I see and then claiming Kerset is dodging them.

In fact the post where he says Kerset was dodging questions was after he voted Kerset.

This does not make sense to me. Kerset didn't really dodge the question, here is the question Tbone says Kerset dodged:

And what should town!tbone think when you, as scum, did something last game, and crucially are doing the same thing again? What should I think from your perspective, knowing these things?

You can OMGUS at me if it makes you feel better but i am glad to finally see you phasing your thoughts.

Why can't you answer any of my questions?

The reply Kerset gave to the questions is actually a fair enough reply. The questions Tbone has asked even me are loaded to the hilt. How is Kerset supposed to reply to those 2 questions? Why would Kerset know the thinking patterns of scum or town Tbone enough to reply? Kerset doesn't claim to be a very 'mind-reading' player at any point in this or the past game. I don't understand this attack.

In fact, this is only what Tbone has done that's scummy, let's now look at why Kerset's pair are townier than Klick and Tbone...

Kerset has been 'pro-content' as Bingle puts it. This is absolutely true, in fact it was Kerset insisting Tbone begin to interrogate and stop being generic that then resulted in Tbone suddenly 'interrogating' Kerset and saying he was sure of Kerset's alignment based only on that.

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, the reads Tbone has in the vanillas seem fabricated to me. How can Tbone townread Bambi? How can Tbone say Vex is totally different to last game? I never got follow-up on this despite asking him several times.

[RationalMadman]

Are you in one of your tunneling moments, Radiant?

I was literally asked by another player to give reasoning behind my vote and my username isn't fucking Radiant.

[RationalMadman]

What trick is that?

[RationalMadman]

I didn't read anything you posted this page I just saw a lot of words so assumed you were doing your

trick again.

Also that was auto correct.

Nani trick?

Some posts were made between this and me replying.

As for you scumreadonge it's nonsense and vwry insulting. I don't need you to telle my personality os shit to justify your incapability to actually justify a read on me as something other than convenience if I am scum (yes, you are literally saying regardless of yoyr read on me you want to vote me and Ana because it's convenient if we are scum pair that is literally your reasoning at this point and isn't how anyone trying to read from a Townie perspective reasons a move, yoy are either Scum or very poor at deducing and reasoning here and since you want to talk about how I have the worst personality and am stupid as you suggested earlier, how about Iake it very clear that you're incapable of justifying a read. All your reads all game have been substancelessness. Every single one.

Aa for VFP, they called me Radiant even in thw game over of a Newbie game I was SE in (it's over, not ongoing, so I can say it). I didn't say anything but now it's becoming a strange and petty habit.

[RationalMadman]

There's no incentive for scum to bus in this set-up.

Why?

I can think of one very obvious motive in setup with zero investigations and night phases that os entirely tells and interaction-read based. It gets the survivor (surviving pair) Townread hard in the aftermath.

[RationalMadman]

And trust me, RM is trying his damnest to convince everyone he's the scum pair

I don't understand if this is sarcasm or what it is. I am very clearly not.

[RationalMadman]

If you're town your job is honestly to convince me that Ana/RM are the scum pair.

Wrong. Bingle's job as Town lover is to Towntell and read for scum and then to vote the scumread player(s). There is absolutely nothing about him being Town that makes his responsibility to convince one Lover pair that the other is scum, he can easily instead opt to comvince the vanilla claims of this if he had a strong read as well as consider his highest priority to maintain a Towny image and keep scrutinising to determine his read.

In what world is Bingle's responsibility as a Town Lover to convince either pair the other is Scum as an only, let alone primary, objective and why specifically you that my pair is scum? How does that even follow?

[RationalMadman]

Bingle's job as Town lover is

This is not a slip before anyone tries to say a thing. This is me running thw hypothetical logic as a oresent tense 'is' not if.

[RationalMadman]

Because I'm town, and if Bingle/Kerset are town, then the only choice left for scum is Ana/RM. The idea that I need to entertain the notion that I'm scum is nonsense.

Only choice to you or to Bingle?
How can Bingle know if he is Town?

Yoyr logic doesn't make any sense. Bingle is not responsible for your lover pair or vice versa.

[RationalMadman]

Subject: Forum Rules and Guidelines

[*]Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

"trust tells"

, alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

I didn't use a grudge to influence. I justified saying I'm not fucking Radition. As for you bringing up a grudge with Bingle very early on, it's hypocritical to even mention. VFP and myself led Town and won the game together but VFP rederred to me as Radition constantly throughout. It was about time I corrected the error.

[RationalMadman]

How can Bingle know if he is Town?

Sorry, i did miss a comma. I meant to say: How can Bingle know, if he is town?

[RationalMadman]

I misedited/cropped a quote I was quotijg myself inside Tbone's quote, apologies.

[RationalMadman]

I can't believe I'm supposed to be in love with this guy.

It's okay, you aren't someone who I need the deep approval of as a Mafia player or even person.

So, it's safe to say the distaste in who each of us is paired with is mutual.

You have done next to nothing to help progress the game except make everything about Kerset and your feelings of despair at being my Lover.

[RationalMadman]

It's okay, you aren't someone who I need the deep approval of as a Mafia player or even person.

So, it's safe to say the distaste in who each of us is paired with is mutual.

You have done next to nothing to help progress the game except make everything about Kerset and your feelings of despair at being my Lover.

It's not my fault you don't care about my feelings

It is. However, unlike you I am not going to sit and whine about you. This is the last I will complain. You actually have been extremely rude to me this game. It eventually reaches a point where it isn't banter or funny hut just straight up bullying.

I am trying my level best to play well and all you're doing is saying I'm a piece of dirt you regret being forced to work with. Grow up and play the game, alternatively keep playing the victim of an evil fate when really I am the one stuck with you and I'm not going to whine about it ever again after this post nor did I prior to it.

[RationalMadman]

How can Bingle know if he is Town?

Sorry, i did miss a comma. I meant to say: How can Bingle know, if he is town?

Can you repost with what you were trying to communicate here so I can respond?

If Town, Bingle doesn't know which other Lover pair is Town.

Obvious, I know, however this means his job is never to convince onenthe other is scum. That's never his primary objective as a Town Lover, if he is one.

[RationalMadman]

@VFP - Can you give a quick summary of pre-game talk from lovers topic and what happened since then in it? Seems like shift have happened and want to confirm.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

[RationalMadman]

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

[RationalMadman]

VFP please explain your read on Kerset and also what precisely in the vanillas is your read's reasoning? What's your read on Bambi? Your unvote on Bambi is solely due to Tbone saying he townreads her? Correct or incorrect?

[RationalMadman]

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

[RationalMadman]

The difference in all three reactions to me asking VFP about lovers topic really is interesting. Will have to dig into that because those are three very different responses that seem to come from three different mindsets. First instinct is one town reaction, one null and one somewhat scummy.

Thats a fancy way to call us null as a whole.

Not sure how you are getting that when three lovers, all from different pairs, have chimed in when I say "one is town, one null, one scum" for the responses. Although for you specifically yes you were the null response. I am shocked none of the three mentioned was I was hoping for though.

So who was which? I only see two reacting, me and Kerset. Who was the third? The one you actually asked?

[RationalMadman]

VFP answering your question isn't a reaction to you asking, not at all same dynamic.

[RationalMadman]

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

[RationalMadman]

Actually wait a second why does it matter if we run out of time if scum don't have a nightphase to shoot us or something

@Mod:

What would you actually do in a nightless game if we run outta time?

The concept I have come across is that the first to non-act is the side that's blackmailed to act unless they want a nobody-wins ending (which is mutual gamethrow by all sides).

[RationalMadman]

in this game, day-phase is the only phase where actions can happen by any side, so in 3 days' time or even 2, depending on the agreement/standard, we are all forced to vote someone off or everyone loses.

In a scenario with a night phase where it's the night phase where inaction began, it's the night-phase that action must occur (scum vs protection stalemate is devastating in this case and comes down to mod interpretation which side is more to blame for not trying to avoid the stalemate).

[RationalMadman]

I do not want to see a single Vanilla claim playing neutral due to the mechanic Llama said, that's not an excuse. You must take responsibility for your read and I will scumread anyone over Bambi if they remain totally neutral to the day's end. Vote who you believe is the scummiest pair and do not vote Bingle instead of Kerset or Klick instead of Tbone, that is just being ridiculous.

If you think Ana and I are scum, say it and vote one of us. Justify the vote regardless and don't remain neutral saying you didn't care because of maj going no matter what.

[RationalMadman]

Nightless actually changes things here.
A lim on the scum lovers day 1 is an automatic win.

I'm going to think on it first then see where I go.

It isn't, there is another mechanical way for scum to win (being the only vanilla left). Why didn't you read the OP fully?

[RationalMadman]

Well not OP, 2 below it but the point still stands.

[RationalMadman]

I have voted who I believe is scum, I hope the majority builds, that is my final verdict.

[RationalMadman]

I mean by default of Tbone your my top townread but you didn't know the wincons coming in? Geez.

I replaced in.
My wincon is just to get all mafia. Although wrong, it's understandable to assume scum also have a generic win con.

You'd read it as Town I am sure.

Telle, what is your read on Bingle and why?

[RationalMadman]

So I have 1 game with RM, yet he is confident that I'm a competent player as town.
What gives this impression, RM?

I read your other games, most are ongoing from what I see though therefore I can't give details.

As a 'newbie' you knew how to breadcrumb your tracker report on day 2 of the game we played and you even made sure to put Rathe at the bottom of your townreads to make very clear what you were doing to a more observant player. That game is over so I can say that.

You also read Andante and many players in that game we played well despite being as I said, a 'newbie'. You replaced in there too, showing how fast you can read a game and know your situation/surroundings, you also softed being a PR to me when I asked your role on Day 1 though you could have replied the same implicit hint as a VT to me asking your role.

[RationalMadman]

When I say read other games, skimread is a better term to use.

[RationalMadman]

Telle, what is your read on Bingle and why?

actually i dont recall you giving individual read on Bingle @RM

viewtopic.php?p=12760138#p12760138
viewtopic.php?p=12761120#p12761120
viewtopic.php?p=12761127#p12761127
viewtopic.php?p=12761314#p12761314
viewtopic.php?p=12762379#p12762379
viewtopic.php?p=12763041#p12763041
viewtopic.php?p=12769621#p12769621
^ Until this I scumread Bingle overall. Chronologically ordered.
This converts to a nullread (which it was already a weakening scumread anyway due to you in particular, Kerset):
viewtopic.php?p=12770832#p12770832
viewtopic.php?p=12770876#p12770876

In short, my read on Bingle is that I can't read him this game, that isn't ignorance or stupidity it's honesty. I think Bingle can have played absolutely every situation this game as Scum and as Town as well, it comes down to why he suddenly 'lost interest' why his stance is a lot more defensive and reactionary and in this case due to pairs, how his partner in the pair reacts to situations vs the other pair then my own. Tbone and Klick (now VFP) don't read Town to me at all, thus I do not scumread Bingle over them and it seems everyone agrees what I thought was a slip from Bingle may well not have been (calling it a mason thread in the heat of the moment, rather than Lover PT or Lover Thread, or even 'hydra thread' all which would match his lexical history more vs last game though I don't think he ever called it a hydra thread).

[RationalMadman]

RM directly just seems to be making up meta, in a way to suit a push.
As explained, I replaced into a game and told read someone due to knowing my role and their claim.
We eliminated scum and the PoE was 2 players. 1 I tracked who didn't kill and 1 left for the lim the next day.

This play was more the game sorting itself over anyone being competent.
Yet, RM is set on such a strange argument towards me. As if it's to justify voting there.

Name it, what meta did I make up? I justify my votes always, how is that a scumtell? I am not going to ever fear justifying a vote because I'll be framed for my reasoning. That is futile fear.

You are not new to mafia, that much I'm certain of. You're new to the website, not to mafia. You're to be read as a very seasoned player, which isn't false meta and I highlighted what alerted me to this about you.

[RationalMadman]

VOTE: Anastasia

So originally I was thinking about this the entire wrong dirtection.
I still think Vex is scum, but in the game mode pushing scum buddies as scum at any point is bad.

It's the same as saying that if me and T-bone are scum, then Bambi would have to be as well.

Vex had Ana and RM as set town basically while scum reading Bingle / Kerset and having me and T-Bone on the back burner.

These are the scum teams

RM / Ana / SS
Kerset / Bingle / Llama
Me / T-Bone / Bambi

RM talking about me as if he can read my meta game after 1 game I replaced into.
But it's not so much as having a meta read, but to go to the assumption that I don't make mistakes or miss things in games.

There is absolutely nothing in here I can reoly to or defend. Your theory is that as scum myself and/or Ana asked Vex to Townread us in the public thread, correct? Furthermore, something about this stated theory irks me, you're logic puts you in with Bambi and sets in stone an attachment to VT claims... I believe that is the team, so I am not arguing against it but why do that?

Are you suggesting Scum don't distance or engineer conflict between themselves? Obviously they don't have to but your logic relies on a 100% assurance Scum wouldn't. I don't comprehend why you'd suggest and rely on that.

[RationalMadman]

I never ever will autotownread anyone based on friendly interactions, only the opposite path if bus seems suboptimal and the interactions seem genuine.

[RationalMadman]

I'd autotownread for hostile interaction with Scum pair and a Vanilla claim if either flipped scum and the interactions seemed genuine. The reading for friendly interactions is futile in my opinion.

[RationalMadman]

As I asked before, why do I read the game rules as town, but not as scum?

Because Town care more about what's written in big bold text about the game especially when replacing in. Scum are more intrigued in what's in their PT simple to understand. Some players aren't observant and won't read all rules in detail (I skimread, myself) but you ignored a major thing written in massive bold text.

[RationalMadman]

Actually I've been on the website since 2013. This has no impact to how I play though. My main makes a lot of derp mistakes.

Which account? You broke rules by entering the Newbie game as a Newbie and not as an SE then, didn't you?

[RationalMadman]

You say there is no way I do something or don't do something as town. What makes you so sure I do something as town? When I have already proven that as town I make derp moments?

In the game we played, you didn't have a single derp moment and had plenty of the opposite. That is how.

[RationalMadman]

Incorrect. I never mentioned that you asked them to town read you.

You implied it. Why else would Vex not want to distance themselves from what you are saying as their scum-partner pair of lovers?

How/where did Vex and S_S distance from you and T-bone? If anything Vex trying to pocket me is a non-partner tell whereas Vex playing around T-bone and yourself and suddenly a gentle clash happening when T-bone scumreads Vex implies that I am not the partner, T-bone and you are. The only thing we agree on with Vex is that I doubt they were bussing Bingle and Kerset, that friction seemed/seems genuine except that it magically stopped afterwards.

[RationalMadman]

Give me an explanation from the finished games where I am always aware of the game rules, claims, and what everyone has said.

Every single post you made implied it, so much so you even knew how to organise your townread-to-scumread list in a way that made clear someone many scumread was top of your townreads so as to make clear if you died the next nightphase nobody was confused what alignment Ivy was (putting the other strong townread, Rathe, at the bottom of your townreads helped make it even more clear).

The day before, the way you replaced in and quickly had many townreads, scumreads and even meta-reads on Andante means you have a lot of attention and observation as Town.

Reveal who your main is and I can either realise I am wrong about your meta or prove it more correct. You keeping it secret is your issue, not mine. I have your past to go on and the game we played together implied you do not make mistakes at all as Town and pay huge attention to detail.

[RationalMadman]

You won't be able to, because I strongly doubt you read any of my games.

I can't talk about your ongoing game(s) so which are you referring to? Which is your main account?

[RationalMadman]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=85856

This game has no special rules, how can I prove you read special rules from it? You are consistently observant as Town in any game though:

viewtopic.php?p=12664967&user_select%5B ... #p12664967

in that game from your first post you show you read the entire game.

[RationalMadman]

viewtopic.php?p=12686381&user_select%5B ... #p12686381

From #42 onwards, you display high observation capability as Town here, I have skimread your games actually after our Newbie game not just now.

I was curious how a Newbie knew to breadcrumb Tracker report the way you did. I don't understand why you claim I haven't read your games, what would I lie about that for? I have played with you and got a strong read on how you play as Town even from that game alone, you do not miss or fail to read anything as Town, I have strong reason to believe this.

[RationalMadman]

Isolation#42 onwards I mean.

[RationalMadman]

When were you culted in that game? I do not know for sure how to read you based on that.

[RationalMadman]

I never said I have direct meta that you don't read much as Scum, I said I don't know why you missed the win-con in massive bold text since you consistently read a lot as Town in the game we played and other games I've read from you as Town.

[RationalMadman]

Your reasoning here is you clinging at any reason to justify a vote on our pair, the very thing you accuse me of doing to your pair.

[RationalMadman]

I do not even slightly Townread how you are going for Ana and myself here, the reasoning makes absolutely no sense in how you linked Vanillas to their pairs either.

[RationalMadman]

Because Town care more about what's written in big bold text about the game especially when replacing in. Scum are more intrigued in what's in their PT simple to understand. Some players aren't observant and won't read all rules in detail (I skimread, myself) but you ignored a major thing written in massive bold text.

Wut?
That's wrong for a start. However, your argument is that town me doesn't do it because of meta. Why does my meta suggest that I do it as town and not scum?

I have no clue at all what you're saying. I never said Town you doesn't read the text. I asked you why you didn't read it, your answer would help me read you. You answer is to vote my lover.

[RationalMadman]

Scum lovers win con

One line away from it says what?

[RationalMadman]

So this is where I have you dead to rights.
You are saying that as scum I do not understand the rules, but as town I would.

Nope. I already scumread Tbone and nullread Klick, siding towards scum.

You come in and didn't read the bog bold text which would catch the eye of anybody reading the first page, especially as Town.

I asked why you did not do it and you became extremely hostile and defensive and now vote Anastasia.

[RationalMadman]

I asked why you didn't read ot to see your response, not to accuse you of being scum purely due to that. Your reaction is terrible.

[RationalMadman]

I asked why you didn't read ot to see your response, not to accuse you of being scum purely due to that. Your reaction is terrible.

Well this is a plain lie.
Look at the below discussion

before

you asked why I didn't read.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

Nightless actually changes things here.
A lim on the scum lovers day 1 is an automatic win.

I'm going to think on it first then see where I go.

It isn't, there is another mechanical way for scum to win (being the only vanilla left). Why didn't you read the OP fully?

You had me as scum before hand. So again, you are lying here to fit your own narrative.

Where the fuck am I lying? I scumread you for other reasons than simply you not reading a win condition, stop saying shit and pretending I'm lying.

[RationalMadman]

So the reason I paired Llama with Bingle and Kerset is because if they are the scum team, Llama will want to push the option that has less focus at the time (RM/Ana), to leave a back and fourth for the next day within Me/you and Bingle/Kerset. As it stands, than lim removes the RM vote on us, and the Ana vote on Bingle/Kerset, so it basically goes back to how it is today (or at least before Llama wanting RM/Ana) and puts us back into a 1v1. Vex/SS votes us, Bambi votes Bingle/Kerset and Llama is the decided.

Why on earth are you even grouping the way you are grouping? Your reasoning assumes a ridiculous amount. Llama would also want to mention a push on his partners at some point in case either Llama or his partners go down. Your reads are absolutely assumptive that scum are hard-dedicated to an all-3-survive outcome.

[RationalMadman]

RM is just oozing out scum all over my new carpet, and pushing something that just isn't real.

I didn't push on you because you didn't read the win-condition

I mentioned it and was curious how you'd respond, that is the last fucking time I'm saying it. You are either very stupid or scum here. I know you are not stupid so I have to go with scum.

There is absolutely no way after me saying it this many times that you still believe I am pushing on you solely for you not reading the alternative win-con.

[RationalMadman]

You can keep trying to cycle this round and round, but the fact is, you were caught in trying fake meta on me.

I did not fake meta on you at all, ever. I said I know you read a lot and have extreme attention to detail as Town based on what I've seen of you, I did not say you don't pay attention as scum. You are the one lying about meta I invented, I made crystal clear what it was and have answered every single one of your loaded questions.

You are making absolute shit up about me and it is going to bite you so fucking hard in the ass when Ana and me flip Town, that is all I have to say.

[RationalMadman]

This is not someone who is claiming to be unsure due to the reason. This is someone using this as the reason for a scum read.

That was me answering your question about why I found it scum-leaning that you didn't read it. You asked it, then pretended my answer means I originally pushed on you based on it. This is confirmation bias and bullcrap smearing at its finest.

[RationalMadman]

So Klick is null and I am scum because town me always reads the rules, but scum me doesn't?

I ever ever, not even once, said that you are solely scum for only that. You are twisting things entirely.

I said my stronger scumread is on Tbone, or rather was now I absolutely scumread you.

I then said that my read on you leans scum due to your general behaviour since returning to the game being far more casual and lacking attention than normal.

You are the one pretending it solely was about that, it wasn't. I have said this about 9 times now, literally.

[RationalMadman]

Subject: Forum Rules and Guidelines

[*]Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

"trust tells"

, alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

I didn't use a grudge to influence. I justified saying I'm not fucking Radition. As for you bringing up a grudge with Bingle very early on, it's hypocritical to even mention. VFP and myself led Town and won the game together but VFP rederred to me as Radition constantly throughout. It was about time I corrected the error.

@VFP - Can you give a quick summary of pre-game talk from lovers topic and what happened since then in it? Seems like shift have happened and want to confirm.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

VFP please explain your read on Kerset and also what precisely in the vanillas is your read's reasoning? What's your read on Bambi? Your unvote on Bambi is solely due to Tbone saying he townreads her? Correct or incorrect?

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

VFP answering your question isn't a reaction to you asking, not at all same dynamic.

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

In these quotes I never once say that it is solely because VFP didn't read it that I think VFP is scum. I mention it and see if they will react.

In fact, this is the page prior where I begin to truly state I explicitly scumread VFP:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=86578&start=775

This page is filled with an arbitrary assumption from VFP that if Vex had read the game, Vex should not have been still voting Bingle because voting Kerset gets a faster outcome (without considering that Vex changed their mind and was less sure Bingle's pair were scum).

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

[RationalMadman]

I have now quoted myself, I will like VFP to prove that the sole reason I scumread VFP is not reading an alternate win-con. I also want to see where I invented meta, as opposed to making a valid observation and asking VFP to justify not reading or to react to me saying it, why didn't VFP ever react until now when voting Ana and saying they scumread me?

[RationalMadman]

Scum pair is VFP and Tbone, Goon in vanillas is Llama or Bambi, I am quite sure of this, if Ana and myself are voted today, sheep these reads, it results in Town-win.

S_S being scumread by VFP is 0% a factor in these reads, if anything that would make me feel artificial distancing is occuring, this is based largely on Vex earlier on and the vibe I got.

I have said absolutely everything possible in my defence, I do not know what more is wanted from me and welcome anyone else to question me.

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

[RationalMadman]

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum

Kerset isn't VFP's partner and I still read Bambi as your Goon so really I didn't care, you're correct. I wanted to see if VFP would unvote Bambi the first chance they got and they did.