Mini 2206 - Deja Vu: Perpetual MELO IV - END!

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Hi, was napping due to not sleeping last night and then played a bit of guitar, but now I'm here there's a couple of things I'd like to say:

First and foremost, I sincerely apologise to cakez for what I said earlier. I know I already apologised but I'd like to reiterate the fact now the game is over and so that there's no confusion or belief that that was all fabricated for only in-game reasons. My initial bit in that posting was admittedly fake, but as I got more worked up writing it it degenerated into real upset that wasn't related to you and was much more to do with me, but I took it out on you and that was wrong and sorry. I hope that you'll still be willing to play with me in future games, and as always I will endeavour to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Secondly, this was the hardest game I've ever played bar none and I think town played really well. I'd like to quote a couple of things from discord with ydra after morning repped in
"Also, MT is killing it in our game
Idk if you're keeping up
But she's absolutely killing it
I'll still be upset if we lose but like, less so given how well she's done". I also think the rest of town played very well towards the latter phases of the game, and if it weren't for skitter this game would absolutely have been a town win. I'd like to shout out infinity in particular who I think was the Cassandra of this game yesterday and into today.

Which brings me onto my third point: skitt, you were incredible. I wish we'd had daytalk but like, holy shit. There was no way we could have done this without you. and thank you for the carry.

Lastly, thank you for modding, ffery.

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@ffery could we please have mod powers in our hydra PT to make any redactions/release if we want to?

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Thanks infinity, but I still feel quite guilty about this game because that's always something that happens when I let my emotions get the better of me. I talked it through with ydrasse but I felt like utter shit the other day directly after attacking cakez. One thing I hate about mafia in general, and this isn't really anyone's fault, is the fact that there is a lot of emotion that comes into things. And if you're scum and you repress that emotion the whole time, it becomes almost impossible to overturn people's gut feelings that others are town. But personally, and I can only speak for myself, I struggle to control it if I start letting myself get emotional and that's when I get toxic which is just... not nice for anyone. I'm taking a break from mafia again, I think. I also feel uh, morally dubious about self-metaing myself to try and argue that I should be cleared on the basis of that. That's something I think I've always avoided doing before but all of the stuff about feeling entirely responsible if we lost was genuine (just from the other alignment) and that pushed me into deciding to go for it. I just feel a bit gross about winning, I guess.

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Cakez, I'm really sincerely happy that you're willing to play with me again because I enjoy you a lot in basically every game we play together! You also killed it and trying to shake you off me since D1 was an absolute nightmare.

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I'm curious to hear what people think about the balance issues and how to maintain them with daychat.

I can't tell if it was balanced because this felt incredibly town sided due to a really strong town but then also we had skitter which is like, almost cheating. But I just think day chat would have made the experience more fun and less of a horrendous slog even if it made it more scum sided. I think if I ever played a setup like this again I'd want to have day chat even if it skewed things in favour of scum just because if I rolled scum it's the only way I'd maybe be able to enjoy it.

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I'm happy to move on at this point, I just wanted clear that air and clarify that that wasn't a cynical play by me it was just me fucking up and getting too far into things. Thank you both for being kind.

@infinity, absolutely not lmao, I was gagging to vote bulge but couldn't figure out any way of doing it without it being a scumclaim and then the fucking legend ydrasse comes in and plops a vote down instead lol

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like it did cost us in our towniness and I do think that from that perspective it was rough, but I don't think we would've had enough towncred from the lim to just sail through and notsci/bulge identifying each other was a real concern to me for the lategame

I think the problem was that if people looked back and saw it was a policy lim initially then it loses a lot of the cred it would get if it had been primarily based on being like "no, he's really scum for X, Y, Z reasons" which was stuff I only managed to make up later, and even then it was quite weak

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If u rep in any earlier or this dragged on much longer i sincerely believe you could have pulled it out

+1 on this it was terrifying which is why I doubled down on pushing you so hard

I figured that if the others slept on it too much or seriously reconsidered VFT then we were doomed bc everything you were saying was so spot on

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@ffery, what was the other theme with the VC photos? I didn't figure it out

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also @ffery, another thing I think would improve the game a lot would be going from 14->10 or 8 day deadlines

personally I like 8 but 10 would be a significant improvement imo

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also, kudos to nacho for his ridiculous D1 accuracy

that was terrifying and I couldn't figure out why he was being SR by everyone (other than skitt's hard work on that front)

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also, kudos to nacho for his ridiculous D1 accuracy

that was terrifying and I couldn't figure out why he was being SR by everyone (other than skitt's hard work on that front)

Nacho and I hydra'd in the 2013 run of this game (the first Sangres game!). We had 4 scum in our day 1 solve of that game, too. And were put at E-1 partway through day 1. Fortunately the one scum not already voting us was asleep when it happened, and we were able to talk our way out of that wagon before he was online again.

I was having SERIOUS deja vu on Day 1!

I'm just reading dead thread now and yeah, holy shit this would've been a different game if nacho been able to survive through D1 or convince people to at least BoP him

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Playing with you this game reminded me of playing with my best friend's scrappy miltank when we were younger. 6-0 sweep with rollout and milk drink and he doesn't let me forget it even though we're much older and he has kids now and in fact tells his kids of how he kicked my ass with said miltank

why is this so funny lmao

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Spoiler:

if peta iso convinces me of anything it's just that VFT is town

I love you, peta

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@ffery, what was the other theme with the VC photos? I didn't figure it out

Day 1 was sort of light-hearted deja-vu related images.

Day 2 was Deja Vu quotes (mostly humorous or ironic)

Day 3 was Deja Vu poetry and art

Day 4 was "fine art" titled "Deja Vu"

If there had been a day 5, it would have been music and cinema that is Deja Vu themed.

When I was putting together the Day 3 VC flavor, I found a poem that I thought would be perfect if Mafia won the game, so I included it in the final flip.

oohhhhhhhh okay

I was thinking it was more like you were telling a story from what you'd hinted but I couldn't tell like what direction the VC imagery was going in or what point it was trying to make, it being different themes on deja vu on different days makes so much more sense lol

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feel like daytalk probably makes it ~balanced if you don't have a skitter on your team

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I think that towns are stronk right now but also that it's partly because of meddling by things like the NRG. I'm considering writing something longer form on this in mafdisc forum, but the basic thesis I have is that by pushing setups towards being more townsided to stop scum sweeping too much, the general moderation made being scum really unfun for many players because it feels so much harder. That's then led to a lot of people not liking or actively hating scum, which in turns means they're not motivated when they roll scum. This (1) makes them much easier to distinguish when town and (2) means that they're often a lot easier to lim as scum because they won't fight back as hard. This effect then snowballs and makes playing scum even less fun which in turn makes people like rolling it even less and etc etc. Without active moderation interference by making things significantly harder for towns/more fun for scum, this trend is likely to continue. But it's also why in some games (not this one, to be very clear) a competent scum team will stomp, because towns aren't used to having to play teams of engaged/motivated scum.

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Essentially: another point why aiming for 50% win rates is a terrible idea that we should jettison as a community as soon as possible before it does further damage. Maybe that can be the title of the post if I make it.

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Alt title: Why All Games Should Be 9/2 Mountainous Setups With 8 Day Deadlines and 48hr Nights and If You Disagree You're Wrong.

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I think that towns are stronk right now but also that it's partly because of meddling by things like the NRG. I'm considering writing something longer form on this in mafdisc forum, but the basic thesis I have is that by pushing setups towards being more townsided to stop scum sweeping too much, the general moderation made being scum really unfun for many players because it feels so much harder. That's then led to a lot of people not liking or actively hating scum, which in turns means they're not motivated when they roll scum. This (1) makes them much easier to distinguish when town and (2) means that they're often a lot easier to lim as scum because they won't fight back as hard. This effect then snowballs and makes playing scum even less fun which in turn makes people like rolling it even less and etc etc. Without active moderation interference by making things significantly harder for towns/more fun for scum, this trend is likely to continue. But it's also why in some games (not this one, to be very clear) a competent scum team will stomp, because towns aren't used to having to play teams of engaged/motivated scum.

I’d love to hear any feedback on this btw, agree or disagree and whether you think it would be worth trying to turn into something longer/something to be put into mafdisc

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Reading this postgame makes me realize how little I think about mafia compared to other players...

Probably a good thing tbh

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Also, thank you all for the feedback, I’m thinking I prob will try to develop the ideas further and post something in mafdisc

I think one interesting thing is that the hyper posting thing ties back to some degree into my argument — I think it’s easier to hyperpost when you’re enjoying things more and that’s not the cause in and of itself for why people don’t like scum. I thought prism’s points were interesting about why he disagrees, but I think the root reason may tie back into what I’m thinking of, or basically that even in games where you’re never going to lose mechanically you still have the consequences of that extending from people generally having played games like that a lot and having had the desire to play scum squeezed out of them. I think this game fits with that to an extent but not because of how the general trend manifested in the scumplayers so much as how it manifested in the townplayers. For instance, bork being basically cleared from early D1, infinity being very difficult to lim, salsa being considered out of scumrange immediately. Like I think you run into a major problem that unless you have a decent number of town players who are considered close in the respective strength of their town/scumgame you have a lot of people who become de facto clears even without mechanical clears. Not sure if I’m explaining this well, but I’ll get into it more in the bigger post to follow

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There is one critique I have of your modding actually, ffery

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Just occurred to me

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You make the competition for pagetops between your players entirely meaningless. Like what’s the point when the best you’re going to manage is second best? Really removed that part of a mafia game for me tbh

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(Not sure if you’re also joking around with me but to be clear that was very much Not A Serious Critique and I really enjoyed ur modding! Those pagetops were won fair and square)

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thanks, nacho