Mini Normal 2209: Musicals II [Endgame]

[ItalianoVD]

Do we know how many mafia there are in this game?

7! Duh

VOTE: T3

For answering seriously!

[ItalianoVD]

Tell me about yourselves! I’ve only played with Not_Mafia once and with UNOwen in my second game on site which was like May of last year.

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

[ItalianoVD]

Tell me about yourselves! I’ve only played with Not_Mafia once and with UNOwen in my second game on site which was like May of last year.

1. What’s your mafia experience?

I’ve been playing the wolf variation of mafia since 2006. I’ve played over 20+ games of all types on this site.

2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?

Definitely prefer to play as town more. I can play as scum and have had some epic moments but it’s really not my ideal position. I like trying to figure out the puzzle not already having all the pieces.

3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

I can’t lie. It makes me feel terrible so I don’t do it.

I think you should provide your own answers first.

Sure

[ItalianoVD]

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

greetings!

1. several years when i was but a Boy (way back in 2014-16); now i'm 20 and returning to the site for the first time since i was 14. i was decently well-read in terms of theory back in the day, and it's coming back to me faster than i thought it would. this is my second game post-hiatus
2. i actually really enjoy playing town! there are definitely elements of both that i like, but i find it much more stressful to play as scum
3. i would say i'm a pretty good liar, both irl and online. i don't enjoy being dishonest but i must admit it can be very useful

Cool cool. Welcome back! I’ve just recently came back from a hiatus. This is my second game back.

Game theory is really an interest of mine. I’m not quite as well versed as those who actually measure and do extensive studies about the game, but I definitely see trends that seem to never change as both town and scum or villager and wolf.

Well hopefully if we’re the same alignment then this’ll be a fun game for both of us.

[ItalianoVD]

CDB why the bloodhail vote?

We’re in RVS are we not?

[ItalianoVD]

3. if i was good at lying, do you think i'd tell you

I don’t know. You tell me.

VOTE: T3

For answering seriously!

Do you think T3 is more likely to do that as scum than town?

Have no clue. The no response kinda ruined the attempt at a reaction.

1. What’s your mafia experience?
2. Do you like playing as town better? Or mafia better?
3. Is it hard for you to lie? Or can you do it with no problem? Both in real life and in mafia?

1. Lots of it, but ages ago. I was only intermittently any good, though.
2. I don't hate being scum, but I strongly prefer being town.
3. I'm pretty good at lying, and I blame mafia for it. The key thing about it is that keeping up the facade for extended periods of time drains my energy pretty rapidly, which is why I prefer being town, especially in forum games which take longer.

Good to know. Thanks.

CDB why the bloodhail vote?

CDB why the bloodhail vote?

We’re in RVS are we not?

Why assume the reasoning for my vote instead of letting me answer the question first, Italiano?

It’s not really an assumption. RVS is RVS. I more so wanted to know boxxy’s reason for asking. If he was in or out of RVS. It would of made me understand him better.

My vote wasn't random. I'm a big believer in getting to the meat of the game as quickly as possible - which is the stated purpose of 'random votes', a convention which arose as the most reliable way to do that - so I always try to do the most useful thing possible with my vote even if it's very early. For that reason, I voted for someone who already had a vote; creating larger wagons quickly is likely to lead to more interesting reactions than an even distribution would. Chose bloodhail over NM because, to my recollection, NM is the only player here with whom I'd played before, so I wanted to start with a player about whom I knew nothing in order to try to get a feel for them as quickly as possible.

Okay good. Although for me wanting to get out of RVS is nai. I’ve caught scum before trying to get out of RVS because it’s what town would do. Plenty of town do it as well to so I won’t be able to use this to fully read you, but I’ll keep it mind coupling it with the rest of your play.

I do agree however that forming a wagon early on someone gets reactions as well so I can dig it.

RQS is anti-town nobody answer

Too late. They already did.



Anyone who doesn’t answer now is anti-town.

[ItalianoVD]

full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.

Why’d you panic?

VOTE: Italiano for preempting delibird. and i don't like the "if we're the same alignment" in 19 -- why not just say "if you're town"?

Is preemption really scum indicative? I’ve already explained why I responded to boxxy the way I did. And saying “if you’re town” can be faked by scum. It would be weird for me to say that in thread if we’re scum partners. Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do. (Even though I just did, curse you.)

let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible

I must have missed it. Why is this being said?

[ItalianoVD]

Anyone who doesn’t answer now is anti-town.

And yet you still haven't answered your own questions despite me asking you too. Curious.

Umm...

18

[ItalianoVD]

and for ItalianoVD to expand on why he thinks its pro-town.

I think RQS is nai. Where I believe it becomes pro town or anti-town is in the questioning. There’s two types of questioning for RQS. Questions that can help move the game forward and get true reactions from the playerlist and those that don’t really serve a purpose or possibly challenge people. (i.e. “who’s that in your avatar” or “what’s your favorite food” etc.)

I’ve never played with the majority of the playerlist so even though it is still RQS I really wanted to know the answers here so I can get a better feel for everyone.

[ItalianoVD]

Maybe leave the quotes as just quotes then though next time? The pro-town play is to make sure your posts are easy to read.

True true. I’ll make sure to format it better from now on.

[ItalianoVD]

let me be clear: i don't think anyone should claim D1 until absolutely necessary. this site's meta has become infested with pointless early claims and it's terrible

I must have missed it. Why is this being said?

it was a response to boxxy's suggestion that i'm rolefishing

Ahh got it. I did miss it.

full disclosure the bloodhail unvote was stonedposting, i popped into the thread, panicked, realized my mistake and dipped lol. anya's attempted hammer test here was actually an okay idea, and it's a more adventurous play than what i'd expect of her. that's a good thing.

Why’d you panic?

because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn't

you

unvote?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends.

we're playing a 9p, which would mean that a town elim followed by a NK would leave us one miselim away from LyLo. being in that situation on D2 with only 2 pages' worth of prior information is a terrible situation for town. keep in mind that i didn't think this through nearly so much at the time, because of my aforementioned inebriation. but i do stand by the unvote in the scenario where bloodhail really was at E-1, because to me, that was the apparent reality of the situation.

I get what you’re saying, but a quick or lol elimination is really scrutinized on this site so those that pushed it through would be looked at pretty heavily on Day 2. Also were you RVS voting?

Is preemption really scum indicative?

it certainly tends to be, as far as i've seen. what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself?

Ehh, it’s kind of a loaded question. I think there are variables that would make a towny “seem” like they are preventing discussion. I’d rather not say what those variables could be right now, but if you think about it more I think you’ll get what I’m saying.

the more we force people to defend themselves on their own, the more we can determine their thought process and logic, and attempt to evaluate what perspective it's coming from. preemption opens the door for the person under pressure to simply copy the reasoning of their defender, and takes useful information away from town.

Of course, but as you see cbd’s responded to it. Boxxy didn’t so there’s that. There are many ways to play this game and to get reactions. Early on I do things to see those reactions. You don’t have a lot to go on, especially if no one knows anyone. Had cbd said “sure it was RVS” I’m telling you it would have made me suspicious, but because of how he checked me for my question and how he gave his explanation not only does that help me sort the slot, but it may help others as well. It sounds like a townie would respond or react. The probability of scum faking it, for me, is low.

Everything is done to get a reaction from a specific player and from others. It just doesn’t have to be RVS and RQS. Am I making sense?

And saying “if you’re town” can be faked by scum.

my argument isn't that "if you're town" is town AI, but that "if we're the same alignment" is scum AI. deliberately vague and cautious phrasing like this does indeed more often come from scum, in my experience.

It would be weird for me to say that in thread if we’re scum partners. Because I know I’m town I don’t have to highlight the fact that I am the way scum do.

so what if it's weird? we don't know your alignment either way, it makes no difference to us. town doesn't think about what's "weird to say", they think about what's true. maybe it would be weird to your scumpartner, but you can save that for the PT. i don't like this defense at all. as scum, your partner's opinion of you and your actions is irrelevant. "if we're the same alignment" feels like you trying to cover all the options and specifically avoid implying your alignment to try and appear town -- if we really were scumpartners, you'd know that, so there would be no reason to phrase the sentence this way. as you said, town isn't concerned with trying to appear town. so why are you?

I know my alignment, I don’t know yours, so if we have the same alignment (meaning both town) then both our time here will be better. If we were scum partners, like you said, what would’ve the point of saying that? It’s a stupid thing to try to fake and sort of no way anyone would actually believe it. But I’ll be able to tell before the day is out if you are town or not as I assume you will for me. And if we aren’t the same alignment meaning you are scum or I am I’m sure that will show as well.

But I’m gonna stop now before it starts getting deeper into self meta and wifom. I just wanna let you know it’s not what you think or hope it is.

[ItalianoVD]

why would i not be interacting as scum

this makes no sense

Scum want to stay under the radar. It's why sheeping is a scum play.

Sheeping is not only a scum play.

[ItalianoVD]

As a matter of fact I’m gonna sheep Anya.

VOTE: boxxy

[ItalianoVD]

Spoiler:

because i didn't want scum to quicklim town!bloodhail on page 2? if he really was at E-1 that early, wouldn't

you

unvote?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends.

on what? if you're scum or not? lol

I get what you’re saying, but a quick or lol elimination is really scrutinized on this site so those that pushed it through would be looked at pretty heavily on Day 2. Also were you RVS voting?

it doesn't matter. if you're scum you take the quickhammer and try to mist over it. at that point you're on D2 with a D1 amount of info. if i were scum, i'd take those odds, and i'd rather not find out whether the scum in this game agree with me.

and yes, my initial bloodhail vote was RVS

what motivation does a town player have to prevent a given player from voicing their opinion/defending themself?

Ehh, it’s kind of a loaded question. I think there are variables that would make a towny “seem” like they are preventing discussion. I’d rather not say what those variables could be right now, but if you think about it more I think you’ll get what I’m saying.

i don't follow. enlighten me, you've dug yourself in this far. this better not be a fucking PR softclaim because if it is it's about as subtle as a brick to the forehead

Everything is done to get a reaction from a specific player and from others. It just doesn’t have to be RVS and RQS. Am I making sense?

of course. but what makes you think your strategy will be more enlightening than anyone else's? i'm in favour of letting questions stand, by and large. we can agree to disagree on that, but if you continue to preempt and it continues to disrupt the flow of the game, i will continue to call you on it

I know my alignment, I don’t know yours, so if we have the same alignment (meaning both town) then both our time here will be better. If we were scum partners, like you said, what would’ve the point of saying that? It’s a stupid thing to try to fake and sort of no way anyone would actually believe it. But I’ll be able to tell before the day is out if you are town or not as I assume you will for me. And if we aren’t the same alignment meaning you are scum or I am I’m sure that will show as well.

But I’m gonna stop now before it starts getting deeper into self meta and wifom. I just wanna let you know it’s not what you think or hope it is.

this is a big ol' pile of weaselly word vomit that barely even responds to my argument. you're just doing more of the same thing -- covering all of your options, playing it safe. i don't believe town!you responds to my attack this politely. why are you pushing back so gently? is it because you're not worried that i might be scum?

i wonder why that could be.

this whole post reeks.

I feel like you’re not being serious in this so I’m gonna back away from this convo until you get there eh?

[ItalianoVD]

CDB what do you think about Lemons or boxxy?

[ItalianoVD]

i don't disagree with this vote

Why do you like the vote?

[ItalianoVD]

bloodhail it’s okay that you didn’t answer the last question, but maybe you can answer this.

What are your thought on Lemons. You’re voting for them, but with more content from them what do you think? Same? Different?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay had a great time on my birthday yesterday! I’ll respond to everyone who may have responded to me if they did in a bit.

[ItalianoVD]

This game is kinda dead. Feels like a newbie game.

[ItalianoVD]

At this point @Lemons you are being petty and blinded by what you want to see. In an effort to keep my sanity and flood this game with back and forth pointlessness I won’t be responding to you. I’ll make the choice when and/or if I do again.

[ItalianoVD]

i've now typed a whole lot of words about what is ultimately, imo, a minor point. but although i wouldn't have blathered on quite this much unprompted, i do think it's worth remembering -- the most minor differences in phrasing can sometimes be the most telling.

I see what you're saying now.

Not sure I agree that a town player wouldn't see the phrases as interchangeable but Italiano's response suggests your interpretation is right.

Pretty sure I've encountered town players who came across as self-conscious in this way before though, so I'm cautious to read too much into it.

What do you mean by the bolded? Could you elaborate?

@Italiano - what are your thoughts on Lemons?

I’m still trying to figure out if his actions are scum motivated or town motivated. I’ll get back to you.

[ItalianoVD]

*them (sorry)

[ItalianoVD]

In an effort to keep my sanity and

not

flood this game with back and forth pointlessness I won’t be responding to you. I’ll make the choice when and/or if I do again.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm considering just voting out boxxy and lemons and hoping we win the game.

doubt theyre a team tbh

Who would you guess is Lemon’s partner?

[ItalianoVD]

@anya what about italiano's defense feels town to you? this a good faith question

i dunno it feels like he's innocent and wants to win by the power of friendship and teamwork i assumed the apologetic skill tree choice was a personality trait

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: boxxy

[ItalianoVD]

I know you’ll probably take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt but this is where I am...

or town who simply has faith that their genuine pursuit of the wincon will shine through before too long anyway?

Going back and forth on perception that is pointless. I was trying to get Lemons to understand me, if he scumreads that then there’s nothing I can do but move on and try to figure out the rest of the game. Take from that what you want but I’m not gonna waste time with the back and forth.

I asked you what you thought of them even though you didn’t have a grasp yet because those two aside from me had the most content in the game so if you were able to form a read from my content surely you could from theirs.

[ItalianoVD]

hes not gonna post anything useful

He does post useful content when there is useful content to post.

[ItalianoVD]

Also are we really going to just let N_M coast like this? I'm tempted to lynch him just to remove dead weight. Allowing such playstyle lets scum sleep, we get to Day 3 and its "well could be N_M but they haven't said jack shit so we can't get a read there."

Yeah for now. Policy elims are stupid.

[ItalianoVD]

I would rather make a mistake policy elim now, then be forced to make it where its lynch or lose.

Spoken like true mafia.

[ItalianoVD]

I find it a bit suspect that Lemons seems to be defending me when many here consider me pretty scummy (being at E-1 for a bit, and E-2 for a while so far). Could be scum trying to build street cred by trying to friend a town.

This is what I was waiting for you to say.

[ItalianoVD]

Lemons unvote, excuse for unvoting and subsequent fos of bloodhail was "performative" to me. He still has yet to Then his interaction with me was almost flippant or frivolous. I don't believe he actually thinks I'm scum it's just a lot easier to latch onto my words (which isn't a terrible case, but very wrong) than to see my actions and try to figure out the game. He said Anya is my potential partner, which doesn't make much sense since we've sort of buddied each other. I could see Anya!scum being a white knight, but we can't be partners.

If I'm wrong and Lemons is not scum than I think ChannelDelibird is. The easy jump onto my wagon was opportunistic and felt like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Anyway I am willing to vote for Lemons or ChannelDelibird today. I'm willing to wait for Not_Mafia and Anya to post more as the day progresses or on Day 2. I'm gonna leave the rest of reads until later or Day 2.

VOTE: Lemons

[ItalianoVD]

He still has yet to

Forgive the pronouns, I'll try to do better; and this is meant to say they still have yet to engage with bloodhail in a meaningful way when they initially said they were FOS'ing him.

[ItalianoVD]

show me where i said this

My bad, that was boxxy who said that. Well what I said to you is what is meant to be said to boxxy so if you can just disregard it.

[ItalianoVD]

@boxxy:

He said Anya is my potential partner, which doesn't make much sense since we've sort of buddied each other. I could see Anya!scum being a white knight, but we can't be partners.

[ItalianoVD]

Specifically, the "easy jump onto my wagon was opportunistic" bit. I've reread that part of the thread and that just doesn't look like a reasonable description of what happened; I was only the second vote on you, the first one wasn't all that recent, and nobody else apart from Lemons was really talking about you as scum at all. Indeed, Lemons was actively receiving pushback for making a very similar vote on you to the one that I apparently went on to make "opportunistically". Indeed, you pretty much actively ignored the vote when I made it; it sure didn't seem like it rubbed you up the wrong way at the time, so what's changed?

This is what I mean…

Feels like it's going a little bit far too almost apologise for his lack of townread on me. Like, my 28 isn't exactly framed as demanding that people townread me for what I've been doing (it's a pretty basic behaviour to be describing) but Italiano seems weirdly placatory here.

I mean what is this? It seems like you were just trying to throw anything out there and trying to make it stick. I just didn’t say anything about the vote. Sue me.

[ItalianoVD]

Who’s up? I’ll be here a little while.

I’m gonna be at a wedding all day tomorrow so may or may not check in.

Anyway any questions I haven’t answered yet?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay some very quick thoughts…

Anyway any questions I haven’t answered yet?

You haven't yet explained the boxxy vote.

Oh yeah. It was simply a reaction move. Not for boxxy in particular but for others. I thought and think boxxy was town, but I had question marks about Lemons. Lemons reacted the way town would generally react, but I also thought it was fake and kinda still do.

Also I’ve been reading a few of Anya’s games and she seems to be a little more all over the place when she’s town. This game has been kinda subdued. Like she usually votes for everybody and says a lot of things that seem scummy. Here she seems town. Anyone who has actually played with her notice this as well?

I’ll try to catch up on the last few pages. No promises though.

[ItalianoVD]

for the record the deadline is in less than 4 days so we should probably be running someone up for a claim

I’m good where I’m at. Unless cdb gets run up. Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

[ItalianoVD]

Lemons is at E-1 by my count, which means he's dead once N_M get's online. I recommend unvoting so we can at least get a claim.

This is sketch though, why go fishing for a claim?

This is weird. Why unvote and then call him out for fishing. What was your reason for unvoting if not to get a claim first?

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano - I was thinking the same about Anya, but her answers to my questions made sense and I ended up thinking I was in a bit of a tunnel

I’m actually the opposite. I’m toe reading her and want and need to know if she’s in my blind spot. I guess time will tell.

[ItalianoVD]

*town

[ItalianoVD]

The play style difference might just be because she was replacing into our previous game, I don't really have a good comparison for early game behavior.

These two games in particular…is the reason I’m questioning.
Mini 2199: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86090
Mini 2201: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195

Notice the very looseness of her votes and posts; almost to scummy levels and that ridiculous tstbs none sense people throw around. I’m just not feeling the same laxity when I read her iso here. I know it’s pretty weak, but it is something that has caught my attention.

[ItalianoVD]

Just compare the two isos in those games to the iso here and tell me I’m tripping.

[ItalianoVD]

And that’s for everybody not just Owen

[ItalianoVD]

Appreciate that @Lemons Good to have been here for a year! And the birthday was great! Shot some guns for the first time which was awesome, but I’m sure we can talk about that more post game.

I’m taking a look at 2205 now.

[ItalianoVD]

My goodness! 287 is the scummiest of all scum(reads) list I’ve seen in quite some time. What’s the difference between neutral and null? And why haven’t you ever voted for any of your “scumreads”?

VOTE: boxxy

[ItalianoVD]

If boxxy is scum then I think I’ll feel better about Anya. At this point I don’t know if I can see them being partners.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

[ItalianoVD]

Yoo legit though I think Italiano just scum slipped.

I don't think at this point in the game town puts someone at L-1 recklessly.


Especially someone who has said this in the past.

Also since Not_Mafia is playing the claim should be before the next person puts him at L-1.

But he claims he wants a reaction from me.

I really wanna see what you have to say about that post boxxy?

Doesn't ask for a claim, doesn't say he's decided and wants to execute, just wants a reaction.

If I get hammered and italiano just sleeps till tomorrow, don't trust him if he claims he just miscounted. I do not believe Italiano as town would make a mistake like that at this point.

He's using N_M for plausible deniability.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Yep I'm happy here. You dun goofed scum

Nice try but Not_Mafia was already on your wagon.

[ItalianoVD]

Ugh. That gif was…



But it’s just not the same anymore.

[ItalianoVD]

There’s a reason why I was okay voting you and knew we’d be able to get a claim. I almost feel bad ow bad you failed on this one.

[ItalianoVD]

*how

[ItalianoVD]

but italiano's nervousness around running up not_mafia makes me think he could be our magical 1/8.

Nervousness?! Come on bruh the framing of that is so wrong it’s ridiculous.

i think the best way to determine this without sacrificing anyone who's actually contributing would be to flip not_mafia and go from there. i know i said i wouldn't support a policy lim but 7 total posts D1 is abhorrent and the increased potential to gain information makes me think this could be the way to go.

Tell me what information you gain from a non information slot?

This sounds like scum that just wants to take the path of least resistance. If me and Not_Mafia are your scum team after rereading than you either need to read again or you’re simply scum because that ain’t it.

[ItalianoVD]

Still waiting on that readlist Italiano, stop stalling

I never said I was 100% giving one. Why’d you assume so?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm gonna leave the rest of reads until later or Day 2.

[ItalianoVD]

way to attack the wording instead of the argument. call it what you want -- hesitancy, reluctance. what i'm saying still holds -- you were curiously cautious of a Not_Mafia elim from the very outset, to the point where you were willing to call boxxy a "true mafia" (163) for suggesting that a policy lim might be preferable early rather than in LyLo. to be clear, i was never a fan of that plan either, but your chainsaw is revving a little louder with every defense of not_mafia you make.

Well everyone should come up with something better than “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “ Newsflash, you can’t. Scum don’t mind hiding behind policy limbs if it’s on town. The fact that multiple people are saying it makes me suspicious of those saying it. I don’t know what alignment Not_Mafia is but as town he does give content eventually. My defense is simply to say why kill him prematurely when you more than likely will get more content from him as the game progresses.

if he's scum then that suggests my theory about you two could be worth considering more deeply. i'm not saying we flashtrain you D2, but making one half of a correct solve in this context does give us information.

If Not_Mafia is scum he can literally be anyone’s partner. But what if he’s town? Hmm? Either way you don’t get information because he’s a low content player early on.

[ItalianoVD]

Revealing scum!NM isn’t gonna point anything my way because I’m not saying he’s not scum. I’m saying give him more time to prove it or not.

[ItalianoVD]

Well everyone should come up with something better than “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “ Newsflash, you can’t.

This was supposed to say… “policy lim” or “I don’t like that he trolls” or “he quickhammers”.

[ItalianoVD]

if we aren't going for n_m then who do you advocate for a lim? i know you want boxxy but are you willing to compromise on anyone else? as bloodhail says the clock is ticking

It doesn’t matter at this point. Everyone has to be on the same page and everyone is townreading everyone and will only compromise on Not_Mafia.

In any event I could go for CBD or maybe pushing it to the bone Anya. No one wants to vote for you even though I’d still want to vote there as well. I think we should just consolidate on boxxy and any heat that comes will be on me. I won’t push anyone who’s on wagon should he flip town.

[ItalianoVD]

p-edit II: you're right that it's a loud defense for so early on in the N_M wagon's life, but i'm not convinced it isn't just him trying to nip momentum in the bud while simultaneously furthering his push on you. italiano's 333 is not a great response to the initial accusation in my eyes. as i said in 329, italiano's 158 is also really weird because there most definitely was useful content to post at that point.

I think we can do better. Not_Mafia is the easy way and the path of least resistance which is perfect for scum. Why would I be fighting against that? This ain’t wifom, it’s logic. Why would any scum want to make the day’s elimination harder? If there is town consensus on town scum ain’t interfering in that. There’s not that much faking or towncred in the world. This covers me!scum, NM!town and me!town, NM!town. A partnership is just not a thing here. Maybe if you squint your eyes, turn your head and do a back flip, but as a stated already that can be said about any other player when it comes to Not_Mafia.

If everyone is good voting for CDB then I will vote there. Boxxy and Lemons isn’t happening today unfortunately.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

[ItalianoVD]

but i feel everyone else on this table i can read better through the timeline but notmafia will always be an unknown so why not wrecking ball him now

If everyone is good voting for CDB then I will vote there. Boxxy and Lemons isn’t happening today unfortunately.

is this a joke to you

Not at all. Is it to you?

[ItalianoVD]

but i feel everyone else on this table i can read better through the timeline but notmafia will always be an unknown so why not wrecking ball him now

Haven’t you played with him? Isn’t this just normal Day 1 Not_Mafia?

[ItalianoVD]

So we went through with it huh? Smh.

[ItalianoVD]

Hopefully he actually scum, but I doubt it.

[ItalianoVD]

Hopefully he actually scum, but I doubt it.

My gosh... “Hopefully he will actually flip scum, but I doubt it.”

[ItalianoVD]

Well that’s bittersweet. Don’t get me wrong I’m happy Not_Mafia actually was scum but I was hoping he flipped town for ego purposes.

[ItalianoVD]

For now

VOTE: bloodhail

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry guys kinda missed a lot here. I'm catching up now.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry guys kinda missed a lot here. I'm catching up now.

[ItalianoVD]

boxxy scumreads UNOwen

and hammers scum!NM who is also voting boxxy with UNOwen + dead boxxy = no way we let UNOwen survive another day.

This is actually not entirely true.

Spoiler:

I actually think N_M and Italiano are opposite alignments. From my L-1 wagon of N_M, T3, Italiano, and UNOwen, I still feel there's at least 1 scum on it, and probably only 1 scum.

Why is shifting positions a scumtell? You definitely prompted me to look at T3 again. I admitted early in our discussion that I had been ignoring him.

Shifting positions is fine, it's that you said I was misrepresenting you because of it that bothered me. Your later explanation of what you meant is a plausible perspective, but then didn't you notice that I was interpreting your answer wrongly when I talked about it in 240 and 320?

I didn't parse that out of 240. I ignored 320 because I wanted to push Italiano for a scumlist and I wanted to see if you would push my case any harder. I felt your case was dishonest and I wanted to see if you'd slip trying to drive it home.

It wasn't until 372 that I realized you were hung up on the "I don't" and your case appeared more honest.

He in fact wasn't scumreading Owen late in the day. He was also thinking right regarding the equity of myself and Not_Mafia. He was suspicious of CDB late so I'd guess that's more accurately of where his head was.

[ItalianoVD]

italiano is conftown. he friendly neighbour'd me last night. i was debating keeping this to myself but there is just no way it would be believable that i

wouldn't

be hard pushing italiano today given the strength and conviction of my opinions on him yesterday.

sorry for tunneling you italiano ^^;

It's all good I generally get scumread when I'm town and usually for goofy reasons which is why I can usually catch scum who interact with me. Maybe why I didn't catch Not_Mafia. With that said why would think I would defend my partner that terribly blatant. Like that's terrible play. Also why were you debating keeping it to yourself?

[ItalianoVD]

whoever killed boxxy was likely someone intimidated by his reads and wanted him out of the way regardless of being a claimed vt because they didnt want him pushing them (this is also probably a good look for lemons)

Come on this is so elementary. The fact that you are pointing out such a preschoolesque reason is suspicious. There's no such things as newbies in this game. It'd be best not to think that way.

i ~always shoot for a PR here night 1 after losing a partner

This is pointless. No one knows this but you and there's no way to prove it.

the easy answer is scum in italiano/unowen but T3's vote on me really sucks complete ass and makes me want to rescind that read

Easy answer huh? I doubt it's Owen. Whether people thought his push on boxxy was bad or not, reading it made me feel he was genuine and that he wasn't just throwing things at a wall and hoping something stuck. I was somewhat confirmed town Day 1 and now I'm actually confirmed Day 2, so you may wanna try another nonsensical push and see if that sticks. And I've seen scum rescind reads of their "townies" just because they vote them.

[ItalianoVD]

why is the boxxy kill "woefully bad" if it came from you or cdb, but you can believe it came from unowen?

because cdb has been around a while and would know shooting a claimed VT is pants on head stupid

unowen is new and might not know that killing a VT in a 9p when you've lost a partner potentially loses the game because there could be a town investigative or jailkeeper or something like that that can turn the game into a mechanical win

CDB knows how to play the game, whether he is rusty or not.

And Owen ain't new. He knows how to play the game.

Here's a thought. They thought boxxy was a pr. I know he claimed VT but maybe scum didn't believe him. Or...maybe they didn't know who the PR was and at least wanted to get an easy kill. Or... maybe they killed boxxy in order to point to the kill and say how bad it was, you know to clear themselves and frame other people.

K, got it.
IUNOwen or bloodhail at this point. Outside of the nm flip bloodhail is a tr.

do u think i 1. dont take hammer on boxxy when given the chance 2. hesitate to bus nm but dont do anything to save him

i said id vote him all day doesnt make me scum that i got beat to the hammer

Actions speak louder than words.

[ItalianoVD]

i think we are actually getting shockingly close to a gamesolve here.

consider the following:

• italiano is conftown via his friendly neighbour night action. you can disbelieve me if you want, but unless there's 3 scum in a 9p there is no reason for me to lie about this
  
• anya is all but conftown for 352 (the third vote out of five on n_m's wagon), 374, 386 and 388. scumpartner anya has absolutely no reason to work this hard to get others to vote him
  
• channeldelibird isn't
  necessarily
  clear, but he makes a valid point in 403 that his play would be pretty atrocious coming from scum. he voted n_m in 345 (only the second vote on the wagon) and left the door open to moving his vote (didn't give a strong reason for voting in the first place and said he "may move it in a bit"), and then just... didn't, even though he was in the thread in the hours leading up to the n_m elim. that's pretty compelling, no?

so that narrows it down to owen, t3, bloodhail, or me.

as i said above (466), i don't think the case for scum!owen is very strong. anya's point about he and n_m voting boxxy together being negative equity is valid too. i could be wrong, but unless someone brings new evidence to the table i don't see it.

i don't really think it's t3 based on his play this game. see my 312 -- this is a weak townread, so again, i could be wrong, but i don't see a convincing reason why this is scum. his play feels organic enough, and he was the one who put N_M down to E-1. what reason does scum!T3 have for the change of heart in 397?

i'm obviously not going to advocate for my own elimination, so we come to bloodhail.

while posts like 154, 157, and 324 point away from a n_m-bloodhail partnership, he never really makes a concerted push in not_mafia's direction and it would be very hard for him to switch tracks after saying "you will probably need to policy him at some point" (154). it's wifom-y, but i get the sense that he didn't really expect not_mafia to be the lim D1 (hence "at some point") -- when he said this, there were only 2 votes on N_M. only 6 posts after this:

im either giving someone a free pass when i shouldnt be or not_mafia is scum

he switches his vote to... cdb. does this not read like bloodhail sensing the n_m momentum picking up and deciding to push the next most prominent wagon as a counter? and do 395 and 400 not look like covering his tracks when it was all but decided (and, in the case of 400, literally already decided) that not_mafia would be the lim?

tell me what you guys think. am i reading too much into some of bloodhail's posts? maybe. but i do think he's the most likely partner.

I do feel bloodhail is the likely vote here, however, I think we should still use our time to actually sort the rest of the slots, since we have the time to do so.

[ItalianoVD]

he switches his vote to... cdb. does this not read like bloodhail sensing the n_m momentum picking up and deciding to push the next most prominent wagon as a counter?

if i sensed there was momentum on not_mafia id have voted him lmao

Nah, I don't buy this. When you posted 395 Not_Mafia had 3 votes on him. That's E-2, what more momentum were you looking for?

but half the people day 1 were stupidly resistant to it

Dude I was like literally the only one who was against his execution. People said they were not too thrilled about a policy elim, but everyone was willing to vote there due to his lack of content. I was the only one who wasn't. You even said you'd vote there and didn't.

[ItalianoVD]

Here's a thought. They thought boxxy was a pr. I know he claimed VT but maybe scum didn't believe him. Or...maybe they didn't know who the PR was and at least wanted to get an easy kill. Or... maybe they killed boxxy in order to point to the kill and say how bad it was, you know to clear themselves and frame other people.

lmao you are so bad at this game

Okay since you are god at this game, who is scum?

[ItalianoVD]

im working on it, thanks

right now im in the p[rocess of sorting lemons and unowen if theyd actually respond to me

Okay then. We have time. Sure, let's find some more evidence but your ate responses are pretty annoying given your goodhood ability at mafia.

UNVOTE: bloodhail

[ItalianoVD]

Just to let you know bloodhail, I’m just unvoting because it’s the courteous thing to do. I’ll be waiting for your awe-inspiring synopsis and supreme consciousness of this solve.

[ItalianoVD]

i looked into you afterwards because the kill is, as a fact, close to a gamethrow for scum, and hopefully they are punsihed for making it. i needed to see if you were competent or not. but your content this game fucking sucks, your case against boxxy was awful, you've only contributed a lazy sheep against me today with halfassed justification

so, i flip town, will you selfvote tomorrow?

Need more time?

[ItalianoVD]

your defenses of him just didn't really make sense to me with the rest of your play. i got hyperfocused on 158 because it was incredibly strange to me that you would claim there was no useful content to post when we had long since left RVS.

I know I didn’t elaborate at the time, but when I said he would post useful content when there was useful content to post I was talking about Not_Mafia himself. He posts useful content when

he

feels it’s useful content to post and it’s usually non-existent on day 1, at least not to everyone’s liking.

it's subjective, but i didn't feel your defenses to my pushes on you were particularly strong, and i got pretty heavily confbiased by that observation.

I thought your push was shallow which is why I didn’t really give it much thought. I said what I said and moved on. You thought you had found scum and sure while town does make those types of pushesbut they way you were responding afterwards made me very suspicious.

it's actually kind of astonishing luck that you happened to roll FN, because i would have wasted a considerable portion of the day continuing to tunnel you and maybe would have even gotten myself eliminated in the process.

Even still, had I not fn’d you I don’t see how you could think I’d blatantly defend my partner like that. Even after RQS and seeing I’m not a noob. Even boxxy called you out on it. This makes me think that things aren’t as they seem.

as for keeping your alignment to myself, i briefly considered it for the purposes of keeping a mod-confirmed innocent from eating the NK for as long as possible. with the benefit of hindsight, outing that information was clearly the right decision because we're within striking distance of the end of the game now.

Hmm, okay. I would have still gone hard after the player but found a way to crumb to them that I got the message, so that player would know that I’m reaction testing scum, but I guess that’s just my complex mind.

[ItalianoVD]

Real quick I’m trying to get it through my head. Why was “vanilla town boxxy” a bad kill for scum? Explain like I’m 5 please?

[ItalianoVD]

i'm running out of explanations for a universe where bloodhail

isn't

the final scum here.

having said this, we have heard suspiciously little out of UNOwen -- as in literally one four-word post -- considering his relative activity yesterday. obviously everyone has a life outside of the game, but i'm very surprised that he hasn't had anything more to say on what's happened since the end of D1. i still think bloodhail is more probable, but his silence could be an indication that we're on the wrong track and he's just sort of folding his arms and watching us fight amongst ourselves.

This is an interesting take. Owen what’s your response?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay so bloodhail has called four players in this game trash: T3, myself, Lemons and UNOwen. What do we all have in common? We voted for him. Anya and Delibird are only good right now because they haven’t voted him, but given the standard and pattern if they did they’d join us on the list. If we all look at the same evidence and come to the same conclusion, is it accurate to call us all wrong?

There is a difference in tone when town feels they are being miselim’d and when scum know they’re about to lose. I’ve found that town tend to implore more and try to prove to people why they’re town and scum tend to think the cases against them are stupid or impossible and are more hostile, condescending, or sarcastic.

I mean death pacts are stupid and only benefit scum. Using WIFOM to prove you wouldn’t do something is as foolish as the term itself. Your Day 1 play was underwhelming after a reread. Your Day 2 play has changed drastically. Why? Because scum was killed. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. So unless there is another scum (meaning 3 scum) and they have perfectly set you up to look the most like scum, occam’s razor tells me it’s you. Mafia can be difficult but sometimes it’s simple.

If anyone else has anything to say or ask or whatever you can, but I’m pretty set on where I’m going today.

[ItalianoVD]

I think that's a fair thought. There's less to post now we have a scum flip which I think gets us most of the way to victory.

Yeah, but why does it seem like you aren’t trying to figure it out when on Day 1, like Lemons said you were more active when you were trying to sort boxxy?

My read is that the way the N_M wagon came about and was pushed makes it most likely all town and you are confirmed town, which leaves bloodhail.

Other than bloodhail, who do you think

could

be scum on Not_Mafia’s wagon?

[ItalianoVD]

I agree that the limpool should be within bloodhail, Lemons, and Owen.

I don’t see Anya, T3, or Delibird bussing Day 1. I actually think Lemons believed his Italiano/Not_Mafia scumcase. bloodhail’s emotional outburst could just be obnoxious town. There are compelling cases everywhere.

Honestly I don’t know. I’m sheeping you again, Anya. Whatever.

VOTE: Unowen

[ItalianoVD]

because, again, her vote shuffling at this point feels unattached to any actual thinking. unowen still gets yote if anyas town though

Vote shuffling appears to be nai for Anya.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I say we go back where we were and if Owen is actually scum, we can get him tomorrow.

VOTE: bloodhail

E-1

[ItalianoVD]

You’re right, I don’t feel good letting bloodhail wiggle through playing that terrible. If you’re just an obnoxious townie then…



BTW, not great with mechanics, how common/rare is it for there to actually be 3 scum in a 9p game?

[ItalianoVD]

Nice guys! T3 MVP and Anya co-MVP for not believing the troll.

[ItalianoVD]

I voted for scum and jumped off to vote for town! That never sits well. Sorry bloodhail