Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

[NDMath]

Mastina situation is unfortunate, I was hoping to get to play with them.

Read through the thread, struggling to process stuff to make reads off of.

Morph townread - Thought this from early on, primarily on tone. It's continued to be consistent.
Dunn scumread - Specifically the mastina vote didn't make sense from a logical standpoint and 402 is a poor reaction.
Titus scumread - their scumreads on both guillo & anya are over play style things and so seem lazy.

[NDMath]

I feel like Notty has posted about food in the last two games I played with him in his first post and he was scum in both of them. But maybe I imagined it.

@NDmath,
Why those three?

@Pedit: Feel better Titus.

Only reads I have confidence in enough to argue.
The people who stood out to me on initial readthrough were them, and {Toog, anya, sigmund, whemestar, guillo, S_S}.
Calling Toog town seemed pointless.
Can't read anya until later in the phase. No idea how to read guillo.
Sigmund's posts just stand out I can't really place why.
S_S looks town from his comments about Toog but I don't have much confidence in that read yet.
I dislike whemestar's focus on non-productive stuff but haven't played with them before so it could easily be nai for them.

[NDMath]

Dunn scumread - Specifically the mastina vote didn't make sense from a logical standpoint and 402 is a poor reaction.

Was I right or not?

You were wrong? I feel like I'm misunderstanding something for that to be a question.

Ndmath is scum. I can't analyze depth but i can analyze them skipping right over my reply to them.

Didn't see it.

Mastina situation is unfortunate, I was hoping to get to play with them.

Read through the thread, struggling to process stuff to make reads off of.

Morph townread - Thought this from early on, primarily on tone. It's continued to be consistent.
Dunn scumread - Specifically the mastina vote didn't make sense from a logical standpoint and 402 is a poor reaction.
Titus scumread - their scumreads on both guillo & anya are over play style things and so seem lazy.

Why are you automatically assuming the reason for my reads? Why didn't you ask?

I didn't see what you could be reading anya for at that point in time that wasn't playstyle.
For Guillo was basing it primarily off the below post.
Overall point was your scumreads were on the two players with the most abnormal posting styles without other provided reasons and that doesn't seem natural for town.

Spoiler:

Joining this game was a bad idea.

This is probably the best built game that will be run this year so if you miss out you're just gonna have a bad case of FOMO

Based on what are you saying that this is the best game built? Do you have knowledge of more me hanics or roles than us?

This is yucky.

I am not the brightest bulb Wheme.

Anyway, I only really want to vote Bingle if they're scum(as in mafia).

I'm having one of those moments where I don't want to vote NDmath because he tends to flop over and can be a LHF town or actually scum.
I did not like his focus on entry.

Should have more time to try and engage tomorrow.
By focus I assume you're referring to the players I initially chose to comment on?


I townread each of guillo and shea now. Dragons repeated mention of hp also feels town.
VOTE: whemestar

[NDMath]

Maybe my issue is I think everyone in this game is great at mafia so I’m not scumreading people I usually obvious scumread and I’m super paranoid about town reading people

Who are said people which you would usually scumread now?

[NDMath]

There should be more votes on Chara and Ndmath imo.

Why Chara? I'm not finding anything about them in your iso.

[NDMath]

There should be more votes on Chara and Ndmath imo.

Why Chara? I'm not finding anything about them in your iso.

They're meh this game.

Name 3 players that are not meh - direct me to understand your pov

Lld, Morph, Shea,

Also, I don't like that scum aren't going for these particular LHF, so I figure ha the reason they aren't is because they're their buddies.

I'm concerned that your logic seems to boil down to - they should be wagoned because they have not been wagoned and are null. Since that's not how wagons work.

[NDMath]

VOTE: White Fire

I think I like this the most

Would anyone like to sheep me

Anyone want to join me on my wonderful wagon that is going to hit gold?

You haven't explained why you scumread whitefire?

[NDMath]

Debuff:
Toogeloo
NDmath
White Fire

What's this list based off of for you to immediately vote elsewhere?

[NDMath]

I townread Chara now.
Dunn's posts are better, 1720 explained the major thing I had against him, and posts are feeling more different than the couple times I've played with scum!dunn.


VOTE: Sigmund
My reads are most similar to farkran's but disagree with his townread here.

Spoiler:

Yah, you are right, I misread and I got excited I got you in my "Gotcha Read".

Why is Sigmund town for you?

Same question for Titus

It's a toneread mostly, i think his attitude is hard to come around as scum. There are a few players who are able to pull that out but statistically it's >rand town.

Also it seems that his posts are aimed at having people talk and generally speaking advancing the game rather than stall. They are intervalled by trollish stuff but i don't see scumminess.

can you provide an example of where his posts are advancing the game

898 for example, but his whole approach really

It rings to me as if he wants to have people talk more, take stances and produce reads. Unless Sigmund is known for doing this as scum, that's how i interpret his activity here

Eh, i know it *can* be faked, i just think -statistically- it isn't how scum usually approach games. I don't know sigmund, maybe he's one of those players who would do that as scum. I would do that as scum for example, but i know i am not part of the majority. I don't want to metadive, although if you have a sample i can read it.

Also doing it *after* it has been pointed out isn't the same thing.

pedit: wrt titus, yes shea's point is really good and i'm still undecided what to do with titus. I think she could be scum, but she's also a player who talks a lot and will be sorted at some point no matter what

Like I feel 1753 is a lot to infer from "half the players not voting are scum, Discuss.".
Your other main point being sigmund's attitude/approach; I don't get what type of player would play like this as town but then wouldn't also as scum? And that is necessary to call the overall approach >randtown.

[NDMath]

i think it'd be cool if everyone who hasn't given a read on Sigmund, STD, Ircher, Flea, does so.

Scumread, townlean, eh, eh,
Eh translating to I'm not sure what to make of their posts. Reads on ircher seem to depend based off of people's interpretation of ircher's posting style. Am not finding much reasoning for the flea wagon.

Fuck it. Just reading from that shiny VC.

NDMath on Sigmund makes that a bad wagon.
There's no one suspect on Flea, aside from maybe Dunn but he's at the front. So I am moving Flea to would deadline compromise.

Ircher is the wagon people keep bailing from that will hit scum.

How am I supposed to be playing?
Voting townreads?

[NDMath]

I would still like to do std or Sigmund or irchrr but no one seems interested.

Is this supposed to be ironic?

[NDMath]

Scumread, townlean, eh, eh,
Eh translating to I'm not sure what to make of their posts. Reads on ircher seem to depend based off of people's interpretation of ircher's posting style. Am not finding much reasoning for the flea wagon.

my read on Ircher has zero to do with his posting style. would you mind rereading my posts on Ircher and seeing what you think again?

curious about your STD townlean in a general sense.

if you're not voting Sigmund already i'd say that's an ok vote.

Spoiler: This is what I'm finding regarding ircher case

Ircher's content is also an important point here, those quote stripe walls feel largely like empty content, they don't tell me why notsci is a good vote when Ircher's responded to notsci's posts with the same energy as he's responded to every other post he doesn't agree with, and his concern with arguing against Toog townreads also bothers me. there's more reasoning about why Toog should be null than why notsci is scum.

i've repeated it like 4 times, and it's no ones fault for missing it, but it is a little bit annoying. thanks for replying though.

this was the first instance.

Sorry. What feels not-real about it? Scum can look ridiculous too.

they can, but say Ircher does get miselimmed and flip town, after notsci has been saying confidently he's scum, does that make notsci look ridiculous? from Ircher's pov here, scum notsci knows Ircher is flipping town, so i don't see where that "gotcha" bravado comes from.

so it looks more like false bravado to me.

i've been overextended so i'm probably off in all my games

but i do pride myself in playing a little differently each time

i get scumread a lot for it

so what's the difference between scum!STD and LHF!STD?

i don't know, what is the difference and how is one supposed to tell?

@shea - STD's play is in underwhelming/not town territory for me. i'm not going to vote there as long as Ircher is viable as i find him underwhelming/vaguely scummy in comparison. and no one has really responded about what i pointed out again in 2250 and i would really like some feedback on it, i think it's strange to both think a player is scum and to make the post "you're going to look ridiculous when i flip town".

besides that it feels to me like Ircher is trying to put out content, but the content itself is irrelevant to sorting or finding scum this game day. example being the amount of time spent arguing about why Toog is null and not town. (this doesn't include the post where Ircher was asked to elaborate and did so, i'm referring to before that.)

i agree it's not a hard post to fake. and given Ircher's notscience scumread at the time i think it's a strange thing to say. "you'll look ridiculous" isn't usually how one feels about scum who successfully got a miselim.

Two of them are on Ircher's comment towards notsci and I'm not confident in interpreting motivation/thought-process behind that since I wouldn't say something like that as either alignment. I think 2284 mostly falls under interpretation of posting style; Do agree though that Ircher's emphasis on Toog being null was odd.
Failing to flesh out reasons to match the confidence in a strong scumread has been recurring this game imo (whemestar on white fire, white fire on flea, flea on me, lld on anya).

On dragons, I mentioned the way they went about their health being outed doesn't look like a scum!reaction. I also townread their responses to other people regarding sigmund. Am feeling their presence more this game than my prior two with them which is probably biasing my read towards town a bit.

So?

So... that should be embarrassing, and they should be embarrassed, because of embarrassment?

I mean it's the norm for me.

[NDMath]

This is a good outcome so far. There's a bunch of people whose alignment I wanted tested who are not currently voting Sigmund or Anya.

This will be a good way to see where they fall.

Who's this referring to when currently there's ~5 off both wagons?

[NDMath]

Yesterday's flip looks super good for lld and sigmund.
I believe that those are my only reads that actually changed from the flip but still need to look at farkran again.

You should have held onto that guilty for a little longer. What do we think about NDMath assuming Titus flips scum?

What is this referring to?
(To be fair am doing that now with arte's claim)


Some of the morph/bingle mech talk is going over my head which is abnormal for me, just gonna not worry about it.

[NDMath]

I didn't find Arte's fakeclaim as bad as other people did, though I did just look at the message they were trying to communicate rather than the specifics of how it would work out mechanically.

Or if it's not a counterclaim, somebody help me understand how it isn't, because I see two people claiming opposite things happened

It initially looked like whemestar was claiming a solid amount of information.
But then when Morph stepped forward saying a part of it didn't happen, Wheme stepped back saying he didn't say that. By extension, Wheme can do this for any part of the information.
So to me, it looks like a fakeclaim designed to look informative while also not being cc'able.
Would be intrigued to hear another result though.

2) the STD kill probably comes from town? If scum have access to just 1 factional kill it must be toog

3) following up from point 2, it could point to NDMath scum rather than flea or sigmund.


This is pretty much where i am at with my current reasoning, everyone else is just a gutping or faded memory.

What is the connection between points 2 and 3?


I am finally now seeing Bell as town. Bit late I know.
Also am having the weirdest 'paranoia' that whitefire has the same role as me but probably shouldn't discuss that further.

[NDMath]

@NDMath,

Confirm you didn't regenerate SP at the end of the stratum.

I refuse.


I agree with the consensus opinion on murdercat, particularly regarding cat's bell read.
VOTE: murdercat
MurderCat Wagon (8/11): LLD, notsci, Farkran, Dunn, Sigmund, Chara, Guillo, NDMath

[NDMath]

Yes but a lot of people I strongly town read are voting MC. They can't all be scum.

At the same time its interesting that ND was willing to think about playstyle things re: anya but is not willing to give MC the same benefit of the doubt.

Difference being I've played with Anya before but this is my first game with MC and so am taking other's word for his general playstyle.
What should I be thinking about in terms of MC playstyle?

Force them into a 1 v 1 or confirm my role.

There are numerous reasons it just doesn't work like that. If it did I would've answered before you asked.

I don't like how you been playing around me.

Can you go into more detail on this scumread so that there's actually substance for people to agree/disagree on?

[NDMath]

Yes but a lot of people I strongly town read are voting MC. They can't all be scum.

At the same time its interesting that ND was willing to think about playstyle things re: anya but is not willing to give MC the same benefit of the doubt.

Difference being I've played with Anya before but this is my first game with MC and so am taking other's word for his general playstyle.
What should I be thinking about in terms of MC playstyle?

Murdercat is frequently lurky and non participatory in early days of large themes because he feels overwhelmed. This is based on conversations I've had with him personally and also based on what I've observed in the large themes I've run that he has played in where it is very common for him to get Wagoned for not participating that much as town.

I agree with Bell that that doesn't appear to be why anyone has voted him this game? And like I'm obviously not voting him for inactivity.

There are numerous reasons it just doesn't work like that. If it did I would've answered before you asked.

Can you just make this clear

Like either (a) you were blocked from regenerating SP, or (b) you weren't blocked from regenerating SP, or (c) your role/some other known outside factor makes it so you can't tell whether you regenerated SP.

Was humorous letting people think it was spite, but yes it is C.

He's also against NDMath flipping too.

You'll be in a better spot after my inevitable death if you don't base every read off me being scum.

Gamestate wise, the lack of votes on Irch makes me think scum are just fine with the MC wagon, FWIW. I'm not TR-ing MC, but I definitely prefer the Ircher wagon and want MC to have a chance to give his thoughts at the very least.

VOTE: Ircher

What distinguishes mc wagon from anya wagon yesterday in this regard (am referring to after sigmund's claim)? time pressure?

[NDMath]

Also i don't like ircher as today's elimination

My current scumreads: murdercat, ndmath, flea, titus

My concerns: chara, guillo, white fire, shea

Everyone else is fine to me as far as today is concerned

Initially had a negative reaction to this list but am liking it more after thinking about it + farkran's followup posts.

I want everyone to name their top 3 preferred votes today, as of right now, and give me a single line as to why for each.

Murdercat - I'm the only name belonging in his top scumread pool and find his reasons for LLD/Bell/Dunn particularly poor. (Dunn reasons are partially inferred.)
Titus - Didn't like her lack of reaction to Bingle wagon nor her tunnel on me.
Whemestar - Made a lot of weak votes that don't accomplish much ie he's struggling to scumread people and I don't believe the roleclaim.

Ndmath - bad wagon position + nka

You still haven't explained how nka points at me.

[NDMath]

i actually don't like Dunn's reaction to NM now that i look at it. "doublevoter that someone got to name" is wrong obviously, but the assumption that a player named it and it wasn't just a predetermined name from unwnd is actually correct. he could just be town who guessed right, but the focus on NM could be distancing.

i've been thinking about Dunn and his read on me, he seems pretty confident with how i'd approach a partner, and he isn't wrong, but the read kind of sticks out when i'm here accruing scumreads and Dunn then has a correct townread on me he's confident in. at least it contrasts Fark's read on the same topic where he came in thinking i wasn't scum but then became suspicious from other events.

ngl i'm extremely demotivated because i feel like a bunch of town are going to attack me tonight.

Regarding NM, I was thinking in the same ballpark as Dunn (although his proposal was stated more elegantly than mine would've been).
I find you scumreading him for townreading you weird but have seen town do that more than once.


I probably should have more to say but last few pages are really just dwlee catchup and vote shuffling between me ircher and mcat.

Spoiler: updated Votecount

Votecount

Adventurers

:

MURDERCAT [6]: NDMath, WhemeStar, Bell, Ircher, Lady Lambdadelta, Dunnstral
NDMath [7]: Titus, MURDERCAT, morph the cat, Artemiana, Farkran, Dwlee99, Bingle
Ircher [3]: Sigmund, Chara, TheStatusQuo
Dunnstral [1]: White Fire
notscience [1]: notscience

Not voting [2]: Something_Smart, Flea the Magician

With 20 alive it takes 11 to eliminate. Stratum 2 ends in (expired on 2021-06-14 22:25:25).

Claim coming momentarily since holding it off to the last 24 hours seems like a bad idea.

[NDMath]

For context, I have fakeclaimed watcher gulties as scum twice. Dragons + Flea know this, notsci was there during the first one.

Because of this I knew I would have to crumb moreso than usual in case I do get a guilty, and the game being role madness meant I could get away with doing so.

I'm a Farmer, X hp, 1 dmg. I do not have SP.
I have an ability to watch a target (crumbed associated players in first sentence each day.)

Mastina situation is unfortunate, I was hoping to get to play with them.

No visits on mastina stratum 0.

Yesterday's flip looks super good for lld and sigmund.

Sigmund was only visit on LLD stratum 2.
Didn't target bingle because of his pgo soft, thought he was ascetic or something since watcher and ic didn't make sense without some sort of interference.
Was gonna target Toog to potentially catch a roleblocker but was scared off by the day 1 hammer. Went for lld instead because I didn't think any town besides sigmund would ever visit that.

Also am having the weirdest 'paranoia' that whitefire has the same role as me but probably shouldn't discuss that further.

In reference to fire not mentioning having sp stolen, though ofc there wouldn't be two watchers.

[NDMath]

Why do you need a moment to write that you’re going to claim?

Gathering Crumbs + Thought Process

[NDMath]

Forgot to mention but surprisingly didn't lose health stratum 2.

[NDMath]

2. On N0, everyone will start with 2 SP. SP is required in order to certain abilities. You need enough SP to do so. If you have enough SP, you may be allowed to use more than one ability. Everyone will gain 1 SP at the end of the night stratum (this does not count towards N0).

This seems to imply that it's not possible for a role to not have SP.

I was explicitly told I do not have SP.
Idk what to say beyond that.
I don't see why scum!me with sp would try to claim not having sp?

VOTE: NDMath
Okay that I don't believe and with the lack of content I think simplest explanation is scum unless someone else can corroborate no SP. Mod post literally confirms everyone starts with SP.

Particularly don't like this, am at the same page as ircher on dwlee.

[NDMath]

I skimmed the last 4 pages, i have one question: votes on ndmath are because you believe he's a scum watcher?

I think not having SP doesn't make sense given what we know: Bingle confirmed SP w/o having SP abilities which would mean to me everyone has SP given that the mod said everyone starts with 2 SP.

Besides that, scum watcher is certainly possible + could decide to target LLD for info. I'd like to hear math's reasoning for targeting LLD as well.

Spoiler:

Didn't target bingle because of his pgo soft, thought he was ascetic or something since watcher and ic didn't make sense without some sort of interference.
Was gonna target Toog to potentially catch a roleblocker but was scared off by the day 1 hammer. Went for lld instead because I didn't think any town besides sigmund would ever visit that.

I wanted to target someone town doesn't visit, short of being a protective, so I wouldn't have to deal with someone trying to talk their way out of a guilty. Originally thought that would be Toog, with their early roleclaim + investigative abilities, but was concerned by their hammer and so instead targeted lld. No one outside of bingle/toog/lld was really in consideration for me, with those being near universal townreads at that point.

Out of 6 scum nobody knew or at least thought that no sp abilities does not equal no sp? When it is explicitly written in the mod rules?

I find it more likely that ndmath was told he *currently* has no sp (because he spent them or they were drained) but is able to generate more, and this exhange has been misinterpreted by either or both parts

I have my own issues with ndmath, but i don't understand the pushes based on the potential lie about sp mechanics. It seems a pointless lie to come up with as scum.

+ I'd like to hear from murdercat an up to date analysis on his own wagon, who's scum and why

Start of game I was told I do not have sp, and I don't gain sp.

One thing about scum watcher: I think scum watcher targets LLD and town watcher targets Sigmund.

Why? Sigmund was not gonna die, LLD led a wagon onto scum.

[NDMath]

Sigmund claimed doctor, seems like a good watcher target to me.

He was still a slight scumread for me, two players have claimed to have targeted him last night, and with multiple people wanting to hang him if he lived a while (namely your predecessor) it didn't seem at all like a kill scum would make.

[NDMath]

Why are you only responding to my scumread of you and not anyone else?

You're the person talking to me & I don't feel useful at convincing people to vote mcat.

[NDMath]

Why are you only responding to my scumread of you and not anyone else?

You're the person talking to me & I don't feel useful at convincing people to vote mcat.

You're just ignoring what Titus says?

If titus is town I'm pretty clearly not able to change their mind.
They've repeated the same couple points against me for a while, I don't see the more recent thing of refusing to confirm their action as ai.

Why aren't you pissed about a mod lie if you're town NDMath?

I didn't view it as a mod lie? If I did I would've said I was neg utility or something day1.
I guess I just took that as informing what the norm for most players is.

[NDMath]

Mara would have had two living results had we died instead of her btw.

An inno on Chara and a guilty on flea.

That's incorrect, they would have known chara and shea were of different alignments.

I was the one who would've had a guilty on flea had I lived.
Though considering that flea was hung anyway it was better that I died.