Dwlee99's Mini Normal Review, July 2021

[Something_Smart]

Review concerns in advance: Can the Rolecop Rolestopper exist by normal guidelines? That is, by NAR the rolecop action should occur after the rolestop, but I would like for it to occur before. Is this possible, or will it have to be reworked?

It doesn't seem possible to me. I'm pretty sure you can't violate NAR, and I haven't thought of a role combination that would make this possible. Though, if you want to make them decide between rolecopping a townie and rolestopping a partner, you could just do a Rolecop Rolestopper.

[Something_Smart]

It looks like this this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195& shows that there is precedence for combined rolestops. Andres role this game was odd-night combined neighborizer rolestopper.

That looks uh wrong.

@implosion?

[Something_Smart]

Is there a reason for mailman to be announcing?
Is there a reason for bulletproof ascetic rather than commuter?
Is there a reason the rolecop is complex?

(Not that there can't be for any of these, but long role names can be imposing to some people so all else being equal it would be best to shorten them.)

[Something_Smart]

Also, I don't think inherent multitasking is allowed anymore.

[Something_Smart]

As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.

[Something_Smart]

There's nothing wrong with filler roles, they can make the setup more interesting, but they generally don't change the power level much.

Also, both of the investigatives need to target specific kinds of townies to get an inno, in a way that's pretty hard to predict and therefore is pretty swingy.

[Something_Smart]

Commuter can't make the night kill while commuting.

The town role could still be commuter. And multitasking commuter can, right? Regardless the scum one could just be ascetic, there are no town killing roles.

[Something_Smart]

Mailman is announcing mainly because it was recommended on the wiki to make it clear that the message came from a mailman rather than a mod.

I would rather you just make this clear when passing the message e.g. "You have received a message from another player: ..."

Complex is fine, it lets scum claim VT if the rolecop claims first.

[Something_Smart]

Bulletproof was to make a red herring for a vig in the setup.

I also was hoping I can make scum default multitasking cause seeing "multitasking mailman" (or similar) is equivalent to a cop guilty.

If you really want you can make all the PR's multitasking and make this public setup knowledge.

I mean that goes against the short role guideline but it's necessary to accomplish what you want.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like the normality of something being up to reviewer discretion. If your heart's set on it, you can keep it; otherwise, I'd rather replace it.

[Something_Smart]

As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.

So this is where I stand on balance. I'd rather some of these investigative roles be less dependent on things outside their control.

[Something_Smart]

Mafia Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Voyeur
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic

Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor
Town 1-shot Activated Bulletproof
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Town Simple Jailkeeper

5x VT

You missed a "neighbor".

Not sure it really fixes the underlying issue, but it is an improvement. Assuming JOAT uses neighborize first (I believe most people would), TA has 6 valid targets, and cop has 5-7 (depending on whether scum claim VT), and it's probably pretty hard for them to get a good read on whether a particular person is a good target.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm maybe that's enough. Not sure.

[Something_Smart]

I think drop the novice. TA can only guilty one role and can't inno THAT many.

[Something_Smart]

Oh that's a good point.

Maybe make the JK a neighbor so they know one person they shouldn't target?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I'm not sure about passive BP. Right now it's basically a useless role; feel free to change it if you want.

[Something_Smart]

Seems pretty good to me. What do you think, Chaos?

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, maybe on the balance, but I wouldn't want to buff town much more because TA has a pretty good best case. Maybe the rolecop could be nerfed to combined vanilla cop voyeur, or something. But I'll /pass as is. (I would pass a nerfed version too.)

[Something_Smart]

I think we still need the new role PM's for the changed roles and list of possible results they can get.

Yeah we do, my bad, the pass was obviously for the setup only.

[Something_Smart]

The phrasing shouldn't matter for the same reason the rolestopper rolecop shouldn't work no matter how it's phrased. NAR determines the order the roles resolve in.

I think it would see the rolecop, but not sure. I need to double check.

[Something_Smart]

Do not use this list unless actions are actually in conflict; that is, that both affect each other.

If only one of the actions affects another, resolve that one first, regardless of the positions on the list.

Combined roles are still two separate actions. That line you quoted is meant for e.g. when a jailkeeper and a roleblocker target each other.

[Something_Smart]

It doesn't even mean the first one written. It means the higher one on the list-- but the list is only used when two actions affect each other.

[Something_Smart]

This is what I was referring to. The wording is ambiguous on whether listed means "the first one in the role" or "the first one in the list" imo.

I'm pretty sure it was written before the Combined modifier existed so I think it's the latter.

[Something_Smart]

You are right though, maybe that should be reworded.

[Something_Smart]

Might be nice for the neighbor PM's to explicitly state whether they have daytalk.

Other than that and the things Chaos mentioned, looks good. (I'm not positive, but I think if you do make the mailman announcing, if they attempt the kill and it's protected, the target will learn they were targeted by the kill.)

[Something_Smart]

/pass

[Something_Smart]

One-shot simple cop is a pretty big swing based on if it hits a vanilla or not. What about keeping the TA novice but changing the cop back to loyal?

Could also do gunsmith if you're concerned about guilties.

[Something_Smart]

True, I was thinking gunsmith as an alternative to loyal or simple. That setup seems fine.

[Something_Smart]

Colors are borked in the cop PM, otherwise looks good.

[Something_Smart]

/pass

[Something_Smart]

NAR is the golden rule first, and the list as a last resort. According to the golden rule, the kill changes the result of the TA, but the TA doesn't affect the kill, so the kill is first and the TA gets "cannot communicate".

I agree that this is mildly unintuitive.

@implosion

can you confirm that this is right?

[Something_Smart]

This does actually agree with the list; kills are not last on the list, investigations are.