In post 236, Alchemist21 wrote:The point is that if he’s scumreading 8 slots then his idea of scumminess is way too broad and he needs to figure out where he’s going wrong instead of putting it on everyone else.In post 235, Umlaut wrote:What's the point of this reply?In post 225, Alchemist21 wrote:Sounds like a you problem.In post 218, Datisi wrote:i currently have about 8 scumleans and 3/4ths of a townread
can whoever is town here start acting like it
In post 132, Alchemist21 wrote:But Titus since you’re here got any reads to share?
In post 186, Alchemist21 wrote:Can you go over your reasons for all your reads?
I think my main problem with Alch here is that even though they are posting frequently, their posts are primarily just asking for other people to elaborate. I also disagree with the criticism of Datsi having a large number of SRs early on. I find that kind of behavior natural of townies.In post 189, Alchemist21 wrote:Can you show me which T3 posts looked Towny to you?In post 187, Aristeia wrote:T3 I'm not quite as comfortable with but they've all done independently townish things that remind me of their towngames.
Outside of that and your read on me my reads are at about the same place but with different levels of confidence.
In post 316, Alchemist21 wrote:Yes, I ask people to elaborate so I can understand them better. I also didn’t say Datisi was being scummy, I was saying the number of scumreads is problematic and the issue is on his end, not ours.In post 314, MegAzumarill wrote:I think my main problem with Alch here is that even though they are posting frequently, their posts are primarily just asking for other people to elaborate. I also disagree with the criticism of Datsi having a large number of SRs early on. I find that kind of behavior natural of townies.
I’ve also done more than just ask for elaboration from people, but I don’t think you actually read the game carefully; I think you just skimmed through it.
My point is that this general scumminess of the posts isn't due to me being scum but rather that kind of post is from how I have been able to follow the game due to my V/LA. I recognize its not really possble to distinguish between the two.In post 383, Datisi wrote:i would like to point out that this is not the case. it's not just about you being v/la and not following the game closely, my issue is that your post seemed like textbook scum who isn't active making a post that seems vaguely solvey but it's actually ~air~. i had this tell come up in a recent town game of mine, i can find the links later if needed, it is still fresh in my mind which is why i jumped when i saw the postIn post 382, MegAzumarill wrote:I would like to point out that the initial push on me is due to factor's outside of the game itself. (I.e. the distance from me to the game due to V/LA)
also i'm not sure i like this when the case on you isn't even just that one post but /shrug, i'll focus energy elsewhere in the meantime
In post 512, Datisi wrote:@meg, when you're back
what's your experience in mafia, and why are you not voting the person you apparently scumread?In post 508, MegAzumarill wrote:Flubber: doesn’t provide a lot of reads and doesn’t appear to be actively contributing, scumread
In post 589, Vulture wrote:Pretty sure this proves you're not reading my posts in good faith given the fact that I townread almost everyone on your wagon, as seen here. There's not a lot to say when you're scummy and I agree with the people voting you.In post 579, MegAzumarill wrote:Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread
Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.
VOTE: Vulture
Spoiler:
This comes across as an attack because I voted you and because I am the 'easiest' vote on your wagon that you could feasibly swing, and even then you're trying to frame it as 'they need more pressure' in a way that is underhanded. Your tone hasn't improved and I think that I'm probably correct about my previous thoughts on wagons.
- pressing for reasoning is a fantastic tactic for scum to use (and one I enjoy using as well), often leading to a false sense of towniness due to high post count without having to construct a large amount of reads. I find it something to bring up because I have seen the tactic leading to false locktowns and resulting losses for town, It also is a useful tactic for stagnating conversation by reiterating what already has been said.In post 587, Datisi wrote:In post 508, MegAzumarill wrote:Wish I had more time today but something came up. Here goes my first batch of analysis. I probably will refrain from analysing Mathblade/seanzie slot for now. Hopefully, I can get the rest done today.
Alchemist: lots of posts, presses people for their reasonings, very reactionary, null read
Aristeia: posts little content, but still shows they are following the game closely in 184, strong townread
ChaosOmega: keeps posts long, fairly thoroughly analyses conversations, doesn’t actively push his reads out, weak townread
Datisi: tends to latch onto one thing about a player that they find suspicious and stick by it for long stretches, townread,
Flubber: doesn’t provide a lot of reads and doesn’t appear to be actively contributing, scumread
Gamma: reasonings seem to be understandable and seem to be thinking out their actions, townreadokay thenIn post 579, MegAzumarill wrote:Mathblade: new sub in so chalk it up to a null read so far
Lukewarm: likes to move around their vote, clash with Chaos appears to be Town on town Imo, mainly coming from a disparity in approach to votes, slight townread
T3: is T3, slight townread
Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
Tris: extremely scummy, lim on sight
Umlaut: mostly talks surrounding flubber, and not adding input on the rest of the game, posts intermittently but not often. Scumread
Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread
Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.
VOTE: Vulture
- why is alchemist null? you listed things that seem like it should be ai (pressing for reasoning/being reactionary)? if they're not ai, why even bother to list them?
- why is "following the game closely" worthy of a *strong townread*? and what about her readslist made you so sure that it's genuine?
- why am i a townread for latching onto things for a long amount of time?
- what makes you believe that luke/omega is t/t?
- do you have exp with t3? why are they "slight townread"?
i also had a "provide examples" for pretty much every single one of your reads, but that got repetitive very quickly...
I believe I already stated that that initial analysis is more of keynotes than anything else. It helps the discussion to take it piece by piece at a time. If I went through all my elaboration at once its going to 1. probably delay the analysis by an IRL day based on my schedule 2. Be harder to read as town as a block of text 3. still require going over the analysis again if people had questions.In post 623, Vulture wrote:It's NAI. The best I can say as to why it's been recently is "reasons", but I have some energy to think about games coming back.
I don't really know what to think about Meg's response, because it's more in depth than what was originally given and that feels... backwards. Meg might not have had the time beforehand but when asked to catch up and being under some pressure I would think she'd want to be helpful without the nudging of someone else.
However, that doesn't mean the responses weren't good. I'm still in the process of discerning that part.
In post 683, Datisi wrote:okay so - re meg's 601
do you think alchemist is doing that in a scummy or townie way? why?
the explanation for aristeia feels off. you say how aristeia doesn't want to steer conversation in any given direction. then you note how scum *can* steer convos in a game, but then they would appear to have an agenda, and aristeia doesn't seem to have an agenda so she's town - but you just said that she's not steering the conversation? where would you expect that "agenda" to show up then?
*why* does my play come across as townie? like, what's making you sure that i'm town genuinely running around as opposed to scum looking to push through misyeets? especially considering you're currently my main target?
the luke/omega fight seems like a playstyle clash when you describe it that way, sure. but scum has a playstyle as well. so again, why is this t/t?
(Quote edited to only include parts involving me for relevancy)In post 660, MathBlade wrote:Spoiler: Sentences in player list order
Overall I think if Meg is town then scum have control of the gamestate somewhere and I'd look for someone manipulating the game. With no champion for the Flubber/Prism wagon then to me its dead because if it's a scum bus then scum would want the credit and if it's led by a town player then if they thought Flubber would flip scum they'd go "Hell ya I'm the champion here's why Flubber flips scum". The only other person this could be is Umlaut at this point and there will be plenty of other ways to test him. The fact no one seems to vouch for the Flubber wagon hardly at all, means that Prism is probably town. I'm kinda at the point some fuckery is happening but I'm not sure where so I wanna flip some people to find it.
In post 749, Prism wrote:Meg:In post 142, MegAzumarill wrote:I feel the drama with flubber is being taken pretty harshly to what resulted from mostly RVS discussion.
VOTE: TitusIn post 329, MegAzumarill wrote:Titus is my RVS vote, I don't think they have done much either way yet. I don't see a reason to change it until I SR someone else.Can you discuss more explicitly how you arrived at this initial vote given your later townlean? You're saying RVS but I want to know what the thought process was, if there was one.In post 579, MegAzumarill wrote:Titus: doesn’t seem super concerned with exactly who is limmed, which seems townie (as I suspect there are 1 or more scum outside of their townblock) but doesn’t seem to provide a good flow of logic into the game, slight townread
This is a really weird observation as just briefly looking at their ISO it is evident that's not true.In post 782, Alchemist21 wrote:All his energy this game has been put into justifying his actions as seen above rather than actually hunting scum. It looks more like scum trying to coast by with minimal effort.In post 781, MegAzumarill wrote:Lukewarm wrote:
post 71, joins the Flubber wagon with no comment on it what so ever.
Post 101, asks Seanzie for thoughts on the flubber interaction, but still has not voiced any thoughts on it themselves
Is my vote not a comment on what I think of the wagon? -This seems like a natural question from Chaos’s perspective, as the a addition of a comment with his vote parroting what already was said seems awfully, redundant, but it seems like that is what Lukewarm is asking for.
Lukewarm wrote:
And then 227 feels like scum realizing that their early day 1 miselim is starting to slip away, and finally stepping in to try and keep it on the table
If everyone is jumping off, why would I be so desperate as scum to keep on here? Wouldn't this draw attention to me as it has? - this seems like the only way someone could respond to this accusation, trying to explain why that interpretation of their behavior wouldn’t make sense as scum. Overall this accusation on Chaos isn’t built on anything solid.
This was right before a large amount of backlash on the post, but mostly "its scummy" or similar. What is your guys' particular problem with the post?
They seem to be actively trying to hunt scum in every one of their post, I would like to hear more from them though.Do you get similar feelings from 26/30 by Flubber? If not, what makes them feel different?
Seanzie, any thoughts about the Flubber/Umlaut interaction?
As for other reads I have, Umlaut, Seanzie, Vulture, and Datisi for town, something about Gamma is pinging me, but I can't really put it into words, so I'm ignoring it for now, still think Flubber is scum, the push on Seanzie and his post about mindmelding w/ Titus reads phony.
I am also interested in his jump off of Flubber, but I think his interaction with your slot has a weirder vibe. He votes you, tries being really nice not wanting to step on your toes at all, you post a readlist where he's town, and then he jumps off and says you're a top town read. It doesn't feel genuine./
I'm going to talk about this more further down, but it feels mechanical, like you're going through motions to look town and not actually scumhunting. It doesn't feel like you were trying to sort Aristeia, it feels like you were trying to buddy them and look productive while doing so.
285 from Alchemist feels weird to me bringing up his post count. It's not done explicitly, but it feels like he's trying to use that to show his towniness. I feel the same thing as Meg in 284 that I'm getting weird vibes from him, but I think there's a decent chance this is just playstyle difference, so I'm not really interested pushing there today.
I agree that I am working in abstracts. I don't really see the problem with doing so, though I realize it probably doesn't do a whole lot to get the point across. (i.e. Vulture wagon started up for the same reasons I had pushed them, but stated in an evidently clearer push by Titus.) I work in abstracts for a few reasons.In post 947, Datisi wrote:you're right, sorry i read this paragraph and then promptly deleted it from my brain for some reasonIn post 793, Lukewarm wrote:And even following that, it has taken questions for Meg to expound on things. And the way they have expounded, feels more like a conversation in abstraction then how they feel about each player they are talking about. Like, why each action could be read the way they read them in the read lists, as opposed to what they think about each player.
i think "conversation in abstraction" puts into words what i've been vaguely feeling about most of meg's posts but was struggling to express.
1. I am still widely scumread by people and decently likely to get limmed today or tomorrow.In post 986, Vulture wrote:Meg, why do you keep pushing on point 1 when you’re not the top wagon?
In post 869, Titus wrote:VOTE: Vulture
Let's steal us a scum flip, or at least a nightkill.
@Gamma, You in?
Titus went and looked at the ISOs, found the same vote I had found, and agreed it was scummy.Vulture: on 2 occasions (me and flubber) added to a large wagon without providing thoughts of said wagon, very few reads given until very recently, Scumread
Honestly it feels like vulture hasn’t received enough pressure after their putting flubber at E-1. Especially after Chaos ended up doing the same before, with a much less meaningful vote.
VOTE: Vulture
In post 986, Vulture wrote:Meg, why do you keep pushing on point 1 when you’re not the top wagon?
In post 987, Vulture wrote:You’re clearly aware of my wagon existing and have read back so you should be aware that the votes on you have dropped away, yes?
In post 988, Vulture wrote:The way I read you doing that right now is:
You are aware I am town -> you see the wagon but assume people will also recognize I am town -> you fear it flipping back onto you.
Feels like pre-emotive damage control.
In post 985, MegAzumarill wrote: 1. I understand I am likely the lim today, and want to bring up my observations about the game to try to help give input after I am dead. (primary reason for the following question)
In post 1039, Vulture wrote:1) To reinforce a sense of “look I’m reasonable guys, I can be helpful, don’t get rid of me” should the wagon on me disappear; the worry is that town will recognize me as town as well and then revert to you.In post 1036, MegAzumarill wrote:In post 986, Vulture wrote:Meg, why do you keep pushing on point 1 when you’re not the top wagon?In post 987, Vulture wrote:You’re clearly aware of my wagon existing and have read back so you should be aware that the votes on you have dropped away, yes?In post 988, Vulture wrote:The way I read you doing that right now is:
You are aware I am town -> you see the wagon but assume people will also recognize I am town -> you fear it flipping back onto you.
Feels like pre-emotive damage control.
These posts strikes me as particularly bad of their recent posts. This feels fabricated for a few reasons.
1. They accuse me of preemptive damage control if the wagon. What benefit would this have for me if I am scum?
2. I had already mentioned being eliminated on many circumstances, but they only choose to attack the point when I am the counter wagon against them, why not bring it up sooner if you found it scummy?
3. The posts aren't coherent, the first couple seems to imply confusion of why I would bring that up and that the votes were dissolving off me (Which isn't true VC was 5 on Vulture and 4 on me, still very close) However the third acts as if they are confident I am scum with an agenda of how I expect the conversation to go. Why would they act confused if they already had an idea of a scum motivation behind it? They didn't think of it later, as the posts were posted back to back.
It feels like a desperation attack to me when I go back and reread it.
This is wrong for two reasons, 1. the people ending up on your wagon are for the most part the people that were on the Chaos wagon, not mine, even if they were to "revert" back to their prior vote, it wouldn't be on me. 2. I think I have made it clear I have no intention of surviving past the first few days of this game and being LHF for scum come limlo.
2) I had already ultimately decided that you were my vote prior in 678. As I had very explicitly stated I was thinking about your post that is the root of this woe is me I can be useful mentality, the implication is that it did not sway me personally.
You are not answering the accusation. Why do you suddenly find it suspicious to act like this when you yourself said it felt meaningless earlier? Why is it suddenly a scumtell now that you are at risk? I understand yo uhave other suspiscions about me but what made you change your view on my attitude to being limmed.
Furthermore, I have had you as my vote before I was wagoned. This is obviously not an attempt to counter wagon or double down on you where I wasn’t before.
3) I know you’re misrepresenting them, but to everyone else: it’s not confusion but rhetorical questioning of someone’s motivations as scum. There is clearly no part of me in those posts that is like “huh, wonder what Meg is thinking” given the conclusion I write up not even a minute or two later.
Its also that your claim doesn't make sense with the vote lineup. You claim that the votes on me and shifted onto you, which wasn't the situation at all, we both were/are very likely to be a lim today. The main thing that felt weird about the post was the sense of certainty in the accusation, for me addressing one of the most likely outcomes of today.
I am serious and think this string of posts is incredibly scummy.In post 1045, Datisi wrote:yeah, i read that post, and i was wondering if meg was being serious.In post 1043, Vulture wrote:That last point in particular is such an egregious misread that I don’t believe anyone acting with any good faith would think I was confused or interpret it as such.
@AlchemistIn post 1003, Lukewarm wrote:It may not be the same for math, but for me it is nore really about read accuracyIn post 999, Titus wrote:Also, using one flip to check someone based on their read accuracy rarely works. Genuine can be wrong.
First, and foremost, I think Meg is scummy.
But after that, I don't think Ari and Meg are ever partners here. So ascum meg flipwould make me moreconfident in a ari town read.
And on the other hand, I agree with ari's analysis that scumPrism would not need to enter the thread the way that she did if Meg was not her partner, so atown meg flipwould make me moreconfident in a prism town read
In post 1006, Lukewarm wrote:To be frank, when my top scum read decides to omgus scum read me back, I don't think it is all that beneficial for me to engage in a 1v1 with that person directly. I stopped feeling like I need to convince you of anythingIn post 1001, ChaosOmega wrote:Still not crazy about Lukewarm. He responds to my last post in 432 taking a snipe at the most snipe-able part but doesn't respond to the substance of the post.
If you have like, a direct question for me, shoot, but I am not gonna dig through your scum case on me and respond to all of your points. That would only clog the thread
If someone else looks at Chaos's earlier posts, and also has a question for me, they can also feel free to ask me
In post 918, Lukewarm wrote:Curious what the implications you are worried about here tho?In post 909, Datisi wrote:oh, something pings me as weird about lukewarm calling meg scummy earlier, but only voting them now. even though they made no new posts from back then to now. i dunno if it's related to the vulture rising wagon, it might be, who knows. moreso a note for me for later.
That I am scum with vulture, and that meg is town? Because in that case, I guess could have easily transitioned to the meg wagon earlier when titus urged me to.
Unless, I guess the scum team is excatly me+Vulture+Meg, and I think vulture is the stronger partner?
In post 1119, Lukewarm wrote:Oh my, a second omgus scum read in 1 day?In post 1115, MegAzumarill wrote:Anyway, I'd been starting to scumread Luke for a while now, a lot of their pots feeling very vague and not well reasoned, this flashhammer push does nothing for this.
I'd advise against keeping Luke in the townbin, and putting him under some scrutiny.
I'd also like to add that I feel if the Chaos/Luke engagement is S/T, luke would be the scum there.
I was going to put out a megapost about it near DL, but doesn't look like I'll have time to write it.
Feeling Vulture/Luke/???? as a scumteam.
Just try to look into the lukewarm spot.
Less a scumread, more recurring suspicions I think should be checked out.In post 1139, Lukewarm wrote:In post 1133, Lukewarm wrote:In post 1099, MegAzumarill wrote:Taking a page top before i go!In post 1100, MegAzumarill wrote:Here we go!
@ anyone off Meg's wagon
If meg really has been "scum reading luke for a while" do they really say this when they hit E-1, instead of immediately outing their concern incase the hammer is eminent?
Town meg was more worried about getting the page top before they died, then outing their pocket scum read?@ Titus, I will stop posting repeatedly, but I very much would like you to look at this very specific thing and tell me your thoughts.In post 1135, Lukewarm wrote:They even claim to have been logged on, specifically to type up the mega post when they saw the pushIn post 1126, MegAzumarill wrote:I was actually going to start writiting the megapost as I checked to see you had started the flashhammer.
imo, this is pretty damning that the "I have been scum reading luke for a while" line is a lie.
In post 1151, Lukewarm wrote:This is silly gamma.In post 1136, Gamma Emerald wrote:Titus do you still think Luke is townblock material?
I feel like the way he’s acting is very suspicious if Meg is town, and doubly so if Vulture is scum on top of that
I reach near universal town read, minus exactly my top scum read and ~maybe~ prism, but am decidedly a consensus town read.
I see my partner get 4 votes, and panic swap to the Meg wagon.
Then like 16 hours later, both titus and math move away from vulture, and vulture's wagon is dissipating, and down to just a couple votes.
I also see the thread building up tension with Prism in particular getting pretty tilted and ari withdrawing and settling into a solve that does not involve me or vulture
So, in that moment I decide it is time to hard openwolf to shut down the thread that is actively devolving, and to save my partner... whose wagon is already falling apart on its own... and is not the biggest wagon.
Like, even if you think Meg is town (they are not), I am pretty sure I am currently being about as obvtown as can be