mini normal 2226; who won

[Titus]

titus how does a TA return a red check, asking for a friend

No town has a PT atm. They would have claimed it. Thus, has a PT is a red check.

*has a PT they can talk in.

[Titus]

why the hell would scum have a neighbourizer if they already have a neighbour. and even better, why would the 2nd main scum be neighbourizer if the flipped scum is a neighbour who was in the pt with the 3rd scum.

titus, nothing in this game means that if omega is scum, there has to be a scum neighbourizer. you are still making a very likely faulty assumption about scum having a neighbourizer. i can check omega, as i said i don't think it makes any difference so it's all the same to me, but please stop assuming a mafia neighbourizer must exist when the mafia neighbour flip points in the exact opposite direction.

There's literally no point in arguing this as night actions resolve this.

[Titus]

i have no interest in arguing either. just please don't be taking any "cannot communicate" as an actual clear until a second scum has flipped and we can from there deduce whether scum was in a pt together or not.

I won't. My assumption of a neighborizer would have strong some evidence against it.

[Titus]

if NM agrees to investigate Chaos

I want to eliminate chaos

If you follow, we prove Chaos guilty and eliminate him tomorrow most likely.

[Titus]

im like 95% sure regardless of chaos' alignment he would return green here but whatever it takes for u to townread him correctly

A "lacks PT" result is technically null.

[Titus]

I hate it's Math we have to sacrifice to get a Chaos guilty as he'd be conftown but *sigh* town unity.

[Titus]

I hate it's Math we have to sacrifice to get a Chaos guilty as he'd be conftown but *sigh* town unity.

???

if i'm missing things here, please explain. how is math conftown then?

If scum neighborized both n2 and n3 (which is my theory), then Math would be in a PT as invests resolve last in the order of operations. Whomever gets investigated n3 without a PT is conftown.

[Titus]

would you use the neighborizer ability if you were scum

Depends on who my neighbors were.

[Titus]

Chaos has to be proven scum for Math to be conftown though. So I get the reluctance. Math can't live to elo and there's a slim chance I am wrong. So I'd rather keep the town unified rather than possibly getting the game wrong if I am wrong.

[Titus]

If scum neighborized both n2 and n3 (which is my theory)

this is literally impossible???

we know that the neighborizer must be scum. therefore, if scum neighbourized a townie, the townie would start screaming how the neighbourizer is scum, gg free scum yeet. so they obviously don't do that. at n2 and forwards, there's only 2 scum alive. if one of them is neighbourizer, literally the only person they can hood is the other scum. there is nobody else.

That doesn't change the theory. Maybe scum only neighborized n3. If scum did, Math is clear. We're looking for the explanation for the lack of a kill.

[Titus]

titus, you do understand that a scum neighbourizer, if they exist, they cannot hood a townie because that literally just outs them as scum, right?

Right, so they know who is scum though.

[Titus]

titus, you do understand that a scum neighbourizer, if they exist, they cannot hood a townie because that literally just outs them as scum, right?

tbh if i designed a setup with a scum neighborizor with mod confirmed PT info i would make the neighborizer

dis

loyal just so scum can't fuck it up like that LMFAO

This too.

[Titus]

We know there's three people who had access to a PT at the beginning of the game.

It would make sense that these three people know who each other are.

It could be 2 PTs of 2 each - that would be the most likely way to balance for a TA.

You're saying that instead it's 2 people in a PT together (double mafia neighbors?) and the traitor is in its own PT? How does that even work?

Mafia in a PT
Traitor plus mafia as neighbors.

Mafia Neighbor dies.

Mafia Neighborizer neighborizes the traitor.

[Titus]

We're looking for the explanation for the lack of a kill.

scum forgot because they're dummies. scum purposefully no killed to fuck with us. they shot at a bulletproof who isn't claiming for whatever reason. they used literally any power role other than the one that removes their godfather status against a traffic analyst. like, "there wasn't a kill, therefore neighbourizer" is no

1) is super unlikely
2) points to Chaos scum
3) The only bulletproof scum would shoot is the traitor, which makes no sense with a mafia neighor

So...

[Titus]

Mafia in a PT
Traitor plus mafia as neighbors.

Mafia Neighbor dies.

Mafia Neighborizer neighborizes the traitor.

ok but why would the mafia neighborizer give up a nightkill to neighborize the traitor and make themselves detectable to TAs? It seems very anti-win con to do this.

Not 100% sure unless they suspected I was loyal.

[Titus]

In the interest of time, we could just treat NM checking anyone but Chaos a scumclaim. Are you ok with that Datisi and Gamma?

[Titus]

I want to keep town cohesion. We have two miseliminations.

[Titus]

But the cohesion you have is with scum. Literally everyone agrees the PR claims don’t work and yet you’re agreeing with the PR claims. Is cohesion a good thing with scum?

I think there's a chance all the PRs are legit.

Second, keeping town motivation high is good.

[Titus]

the way I explained it makes the setup townsided *but not as broken as math tries to make it out to be*

gamma's role is the most out of place out of all claims but by merit of gamma's dayplay they arent' scum so who am I to question what is put into a mastina setup

True and Gamma scum dictates Chaos scum.

[Titus]

with the setup i proposed (which works alongside chaos informed info) - WHICH I ALREADY SAID - TA is useless post-Umlaut flip

That's correct.

My setup agrees until the neighborizer acts n2 or n3.

[Titus]

Math, do you find me suspicious?

[Titus]

The odds of me generating a fake clear or getting no clears at all is non zero.

Almost every clear I'd generate, I'd have to rolefish for. I also have to act antitown to get any clears unless I can predict the scumkill. I have to block people

because I suspect they are PRs

or gamble on the nightkill or both. Most successful blockings reduce town power. I am the closest thing to a late game investigator and even then my "results" depend on people claiming and getting a guess to if I blocked them

[Titus]

Math, can you give two reads lists?

One assuming false PR possibilites and another supposing they're all true?

[Titus]

The odds of me generating a fake clear or getting no clears at all is non zero.

Almost every clear I'd generate, I'd have to rolefish for. I also have to act antitown to get any clears unless I can predict the scumkill. I have to block people

because I suspect they are PRs

or gamble on the nightkill or both. Most successful blockings reduce town power. I am the closest thing to a late game investigator and even then my "results" depend on people claiming and getting a guess to if I blocked them

probably best to not bring this up because reasons bc I caught onto it earlier but yes

This probably makes some sense given what you haven't given me shit for, given you've given me shit around everything else.

[Titus]

Math, can you give two reads lists?

One assuming false PR possibilites and another supposing they're all true?

The list assuming all PRs are true is literally Ari+Luke. Everyone else is a PR or confirmed.

Fake I already said flip Chaos and if town I don’t care game is on lock.

Fair on the first.

Let's change it to PRs can be false but Chaos is town.

[Titus]

Datisi, are you ok with calling NM checking anyone besides Chaos a scumclaim?

[Titus]

If NM gets back and confirms checking Chaos or Datisi agrees NM not checking Chaos is a scumclaim, then I'll move my vote to end the day.

I still stand by my belief this is wrong but MathBlade cannot live until elo.

[Titus]

VOTE: MathBlade

[Titus]

he is on the way to heaven to argue mech with Mastina

Watch mastina tell him I am right.

[Titus]

I'm gonna feel mildly silly if math flips scum because that would make the night plan functionally useless
although I think there's one thing that could be done

The night plan has value either way but still Chaos is just much less likely to be scum based on flip if Math is scum.

[Titus]

if math flips scum I think some cattle herding should be done

Cattle herding?

[Titus]

Oh nah I am vengeful Townie. Taking out either Titus or Chaos. JK maybe?

wut
is that even normal?

It's normal but this looks more like a blatant suggestion on who to NK

[Titus]

If Math flips scum, my next would be NM and Lukewarm.

[Titus]

And when I flip town?

Then, my investigation tactic should bear fruit if you're correct.

Otherwise, I think everyone hard resets minus the confirmed mech stuff.

[Titus]

Most likely, we flip NM tmo.

[Titus]

What were you informed of NM?

Tris, why was town informed of only 3 pts? You had the potential to create false innos with this setup.

For the record, I didn't block n3 because I was roaming. I hid that fact. I also expected to die, so more investigations if I died was better.

[Titus]

Looking back, I would have given Umlaut a rolecop and making my slot compulsive. If I had jailed a scum and they no killed or were aware they were the block, it creates false mech clears.

Here, I was able to prevent a false mech clear by electing not to act.

[Titus]

This may be the worst game I ever played. Like my performance.

I have neve4 accidentally hammered before in my life. But I did it twice this game

That second hammer stopped the prolonging of the inevitable.

[Titus]

Oh just so you know the Leverage Code

Parker is a thief who secures things. So jailkeeper. What I stole was the targets. Gamma was n1. Datisi crumbs were explained.
Math wanted to be Hardison, but Hardison was the guy who makes things and investigates the bad guys. So I told Math he couldn't be Hardison as I already pegged Gamma as a PR (the wrong one mind you but still).
Sophie is the charmer of the group. I was hoping Math would obvtown to take a nightkill. LoL on that plan.

[Titus]

A guilty with a blocked NK really put town in the driver's seat.

[Titus]

umlaut wagon has exactly the four town prs.

Nice

Lol 2 guilties, a third blocked guilty and a sheep.

[Titus]

Also LoL at Datisi for trying to pass his guilty onto Chaos but Chaos had his own.

[Titus]

If any of you are interested, I'll be hosting a swingy large theme in December.

[Titus]

I also was just completely off my game as previously noted

You were town enough for me to take a chance on confirming you.

[Titus]

The setup should not have been passed as-is because it's too townsided in hindsight given the interactions I didn't account for. Sorry. <3

I'll let Math know.

[Titus]

thanks, mastina, glad to hear you're taking our feedback (and i'm glad to hear that my setup inspired someone else to design one!)

i've been in the situation of putting a loyal modifier onto a role, thinking it probably won't impact anything majorly, and then silently crying in the mod pt when the players figure out how to abuse it, so. definitely a crappy feeling.

I wasn't even trying to abuse it. There was just only one real way to play it.

[Titus]

I have no real feedback, I don’t know exactly how you got snowed by Math but that was the only clear error. Instead I just want to say that between this and FGO it’s a joy to see you in good form & playing more aggressively. Some theories were still out there but you did your job mechanically, were vocal, and your reads were generally just fine and it was trivially easy for others to spot you as town. Extremely solid game!

Math and I talked about it IRL and my assumptions were logically incorrect.

1) Gambler's Fallacy
2) Math having an off game/not getting my crumbs. I supposed Math!scum shoots me n1. Definitely n2. Math totally missing my D2 crumb heal is kinda wow.
3) Math played to get eliminated and that usually sets off tone bells.
4) Math had more of a stubborn streak than he usually does.

[Titus]

Oh and the out there theory was just me not wanting to accept the fact nm no killed. Fmpov, the neighborizer was possible though.

[Titus]

VT dying n1 with horrible reads is great for the gamestate.