Mini Theme 2244: 3d20 uRoll – Somewhere In New Jersey [End]

[Bingle]

So this is how New Jersey gets citizens. Don’t tell people you’re New Jersey until they’ve already signed up.

[Bingle]

sup fam

i rolled evangelistic

I too am here to tell you about the good news. My good news is that there ARE places that aren’t New Jersey.

[Bingle]

there is only new jersey

VOTE: Bingle

Sounds like some kinda cult to me.

[Bingle]

I rolled Cult and got Cult. Is this bad, or does that just make me Korina?

I'm pretty sure it confirms you're not Korina. It's pretty much a guarantee that Korina never gets to join the cult at this point, to the point where I had to make an entire setup to force it to happen.

[Bingle]

so i have a few ideas. 1st one if everyone who rolled cult but didnt get it type the letter c. if you didnt roll cult type the letters n/a . and if you fudged a dice type fudge and what dice you fudge . for me it would be n/a fudge dice 2. now you dont have to play along if you dont want to . but this might help us find out if there is a cult or not.

This is probably a waste of time, but if someone wants to claim they rolled cult into survivor I'd be happy to give them space and look for other scum for now. I'm down with letting 3rd parties win if they can win with me.

You should not claim fudge dice usage, because it potentially narrows down who got useful powers/not useful powers.

[Bingle]

sup fam

i rolled evangelistic

I too am here to tell you about the good news. My good news is that there ARE places that aren’t New Jersey.

To be clear, I am also evangelistic. Anyone else who is a miller type should claim immediately.

[Bingle]

This setup is precisely as it was advertised.

You never said it was in New Jersey.

[Bingle]

Obviously cutting day 1 short is stupid, but is there any benefit to keeping the claimed cult leader around? They've got a motive to hunt scum, but arguably so do any other factions in the game, and if they make it to night 1 we risk having a townie converted.

Yes, actually. Even if that is a genuine cult leader claim I don't want to kill it with fire atm.

[Bingle]

Nah, Loftwing goes on the "Probably Gets Shot N1, Reevaluate if They're Somehow Still Here N2" List

[Bingle]

Why would you fake claim scum that's like the most anti-town thing you could possibly do

Why would you claim scum as scum?

There are two potential answers to why Loftwing is Loftwinging:

Loftwing is lolcatting or Loftwing is Jester. The first is NAI. The second is potentially game ending for scum. If somehow Loftwing IS cult, that's actually the biggest threat to all of the individual scumteams.

tl;dr Scum should definitely shoot the person who can maybe end the game, and not just to set up a vig claim down the line. Similarly, Loftwing is a pretty good vig target. Loftwing should not be the elimination today at all.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

[Bingle]

Like I’m trying to consider it from Cult’s POV on this right, if there’s only the Cult Leader, then if they play along with this, they hopefully turn one player, and Leader gets NKed, then it’s only one cult member who can’t do anything. Wouldn’t that just be worse, even assuming everything goes well for them?

Cult leader wouldn’t claim. Theoretically someone who rolled cult and instead became a survivor, SK or jester could claim survivor so that we know that there is in fact a cult but that requires multiple people having rolled cult to begin with.

[Bingle]

My idea is simply unless you rolled cult and didn't get it you have no idea if there is a cult. What does the seven mean? Does it mean there are 7 town two scum two wearwovles and two aliens or does it mean there are six town,One cult 2 scum two wearwovles and two aliens? Which is why I askd what I did . I'm not asking for your rolls or even your role I'm just asking if you rolled cult and didn't receive it?

If the seven is anything more than arbitrary flavor then it taints the game, so we can assume it’s arbitrary flavor.

[Bingle]

so i have a few ideas. 1st one if everyone who rolled cult but didnt get it type the letter c. if you didnt roll cult type the letters n/a . and if you fudged a dice type fudge and what dice you fudge . for me it would be n/a fudge dice 2. now you dont have to play along if you dont want to . but this might help us find out if there is a cult or not.

Cyrus brought it up first

Technically STD brought it up first when he claimed cult-Miller.

[Bingle]

So… I have a method by which we could maybe break the game but it is both unfun and at the very least against the spirit of the rules.

Thoughts?

[Bingle]

Implementation would require the majority to play along and given that it’s not explicitly against the rules a reroll of the game would be more likely than a mod kill.

[Bingle]

I’m not going to say it, but basically it exploits the setup to confirm town by having town provide information scum would have a hard time replicating quickly.

It wouldn’t confirm me as town in any case because I would know in advance exactly how to manipulate the process.

I’m also not going to use it without overwhelming support because like I said it’s really not very fun.

[Bingle]

What information indeed.

[Bingle]

So... are we going to claim our dice rolls?

Probably shouldn’t.

Basically the only things on the claim table atm are the millerships and being an extra cult.

How do you feel about voting owls?

[Bingle]

I can feel how annoyed Cook is with me right now. It’s like a particularly flavorful hot sauce. And changing the rules to close the loophole would confirm that my strategy exists, interfering with the game.

[Bingle]

I did not suggest that we claim our roles, but our dice rolls.

Dice rolls directly affect roles. Hell, even which roll you applied the fudge to would give info to a scum lord paying enough attention.

[Bingle]

Theoretically you could be a town vig who could act 30 times night one though.

[Bingle]

I did not suggest that we claim our roles, but our dice rolls.

Dice rolls directly affect roles. Hell, even which roll you applied the fudge to would give info to a scum lord paying enough attention.

That gets tricky see 1 though 20 no one knows what number you rolled . Or if you added or subtracted or what number of the 4d dice you rolled unless you state it. For example jack rolled a 6 7 8 =21 jack states he fudged a dice but doesn't state if he went up or down or what dice he fudged leavening scum to . A wonder if he's being truth ful about his roll or if he's lieing and if he's being honest what one did he fudge and what number did he get and did he add or subtract .

Jack is a parity cop who is more likely to be fully functional 1/3 of the time. Either of the other roles get the fudge downward toward several useful roles, but are likely gated heavily. Probably not worth killing for role before D3.

[Bingle]

Tl;dr don’t claim rolls.

[Bingle]

I think claiming "Faction" dice rolls is safe but somewhat useless. Mine is 4 which i fudged down, and got 1 instead. Not claiming others yet.

This is exactly why we shouldn’t claim rolls.

The implication of this claim is that both the role and modifier rolls you had were better than their surroundings as an aggregate. Which is useful information for scum.

[Bingle]

Bingel also feel like scum to me he hasn't added any help besides rejecting all my ideas.

Oh? I think I’ve done quite a bit more. For example, I’m very serious about my vote on Owl.

[Bingle]

can you elaborate your vote on owl

Yes. Their reaction to Loft left much to be desired.

34 was kinda like asking permission to scumread someone which came across as self conscious, 37 didn't really feel like they were putting any thought into why I said we shouldn't turbo lim the cultist claim and kinda just felt like they were taking it for granted that I had town's best interests at heart without asking for elaborations or explanations, there was no response to 38, and 40 seems to treat Loftwing as town.


Not a solid case, but more than a liquid case and definitely the best vote in the thread atm from where I stand.

[Bingle]

FWIW, I also disliked Loft's reaction to my assertion I had a gamebreaking strategy we could use. Felt like fishing for information to prevent it from catching them.

[Bingle]

I was trying to catch you in a lie, because there is no gamebreaking strategy that you could possibly have.

What scum motivation do I have to lie?

And also there is, but .

[Bingle]

The scum motive to lie is to see how coordinated the town could get if prodded just right

wat?

[Bingle]

@cyrus:

Bingel also feel like scum to me he hasn't added any help besides rejecting all my ideas.

Oh? I think I’ve done quite a bit more. For example, I’m very serious about my vote on Owl.

Do you still think I haven’t done enough? Why? Why did you think that in the first place? Who has done more?

[Bingle]

So… I have a method by which we could maybe break the game but it is both unfun and at the very least against the spirit of the rules.

Thoughts?

How can this be done? You said "maybe" - does it depend on what people actually rolled, or are you unsure if it will work and it is independent of rolls?

It does depend on the rolls (there are theoretical worlds where it nets us no information in fact) and would explicitly not work with me or anyone I was partnered with. In fact, prior knowledge of how it works completely negates any advantage it might bring.

Were you aware I just called out loftwing as potential scum because it felt like they were fishing for ways to mitigate the strategy?

[Bingle]

like i think i already messed up posting i think me hiding this game would have been best.

??????

Like I know I'm guilty of skimming Cyrus's posts but how did NO ONE at least ask about this?

Cyrus what is this post

I was ignoring it as a PR softclaim, tbh.

[Bingle]

But you haven't realy played ball I. Am here trying to find methods to find scum easier but

you seem to some how found scum in 38 post

.

This seems more like an argument that I HAVE done a significant amount, than the opposite. If your actual complaint is that I'm not engaging with mech ideas I think are bad other than to point out why I think they're bad, I don't really have a solution to that. I'm not going to advocate doing things that I don't see leading to scum eliminations because... Why would I?

How do you feel about my reasons to scumread Loft and/or Owl? Do you agree with the logic? Do you disagree with the logic? Why?

[Bingle]

After all cook stated jester is non game ending.

I'd actually missed this, but it makes the Jester win trivial.

Jester is the only role that actively wants to be eliminated. Jester is a threat to town if they aren't. (they actively want to be eliminated and don't want to be a threat to scum because that might get them shot. We will have to eliminate them at some point, because if they survive to XLO they will selfvote and cost town the game. Eliminating them while we're low info > eliminating them while we're high info.)

Therefore, any Jesters can claim and get eliminated and we can just move on with the game. With a phase worth of NA results to work with.

[Bingle]

i thought you didnt want to vote loft. and owl dose not feel scum like to me. my idea was not so much to lead to scum but to try to understand if there is a cult or not and if so who it is. cult should always be d1 vote.

Eh. Cult is the single person who is the greatest threat to the traditional scumteams, and won't be intentionally protected by doctors of any faction. Any groupscum worth their salt will kill an obvious cult leader N1 and it's reasonably likely we have at least one RB (as a whole, not even among the town aligned players). If someone is obviously cult, we don't really need to deal with them on D1 as town because they are a bigger threat to groupscum than the townies are.

Compound that with the fact that I don't actually think Loft is a cult leader (but rather was lolcatting) and I didn't want to eliminate them first thing. Given the fact that jester isn't game ending, I'm actually okay with votes on Loft.

Why do you townlean Owl?

[Bingle]

Jester is scum, but Jester won't come at your face with a knife or pamphlet or a spacey gun

Fuck off Jake. This is my game.

As long as Jester is alive, we have a lower lim threshhold and XLO is a day earlier. We HAVE to deal with them eventually, and it's better to deal with them now when we're less likely to actually hit people with pamphlets/guns/knives (and indeed, people with pamphlets/guns/knives are more likely to hit each other).

As far as vigging a Jester... Why? Like, sure, from town's PoV that's slightly better EV, but it assumes the existence of a vig and also is just kind of a dick move. "Oh, hey, we can spend a resource to make you a nonthreat that wins or we can spend an analogous resource to make sure you lose. Fuck you."

[Bingle]

It does look like something that one would say in the scum werk room.

Which one of the posts looks like scum werk room speak, and what does that mean?

[Bingle]

You seem oddly calm with just handing out the win to Jester.

Why shouldn't I be?

[Bingle]

I don't think NM was actually claiming jester. This conversation feels pointless

The conversation isn’t about an extant jester claim, but rather that any jesters SHOULD claim because doing so guarantees their win.

@Loft: Jester has to be eliminated at some point before XLO or we simply lose in XLO because a non game ending jester in this setup has a trivial wincon. Today is the day with the lowest chance of limming scum otherwise because duh. Scum has no reason to shoot a jester claim. All of that is objectively true. Your argument is functionally: we should wait to eliminate jester until we potentially have nka and/or investigative results because maybe we’ll win without hitting XLO, in which case… we would have won the game anyway.

[Bingle]

hmm. bingle. could be town UNVOTE: i think i know what he's doing

You'll have to be more specific. Are you referring to the "Trying to get 3p players to claim", "Fishing for reactions to the existence of a breaking strategy", or "engaging with people to generate reads"? Cause they're all pretty separate.

[Bingle]

9 Town, 3 Mafia, 1 Jester.

Assume that Mafia always kill town.

When will XLO be if we don't execute the jester?
When will XLO be if we do execute the jester?

3 Maf 1 Jester 5 Town is XLO.
3 Maf 4 Town is also XLO.

The latter has more information, because there's been an additional night phase and the pool of suspects is smaller.

Limming a Jester claim D1 simply guarantees not mislimming a power role D1. This is not Rocket Surgery.

[Bingle]

we know there is 7 something

We explicitly don't know this.

My flavor color is #888888, italicized. This will denote information that is not necessary to read to play the game, but will improve your immersion should you read it.

The flavor is flavor, it's not actually game relevant.

[Bingle]

Cook is saying you don't have to read it as in it won't make you break any rules if you don't read it.

If Cook is providing game relevant information via flavor without having advertised that, that is explicitly bastard influence and moderator interference in the game and she's definitely in the wrong, given this is a Semi Open. Additionally, it's shitty moderator practice. If you think this is the case, I suggest you actually PM Cook to check, as her rules explicitly tell you to use PMs.

[Bingle]

I wasnt asking to gauge whether you'd react the same way, just didn't think there was any guaranteed way to do it and was curious what you'd come up with. Doesnt sound like anything setup-breaking though, so my guess is its something similar to follow the cop which is risky to go forward with as it gets the investigative killed in the event there is no protective for them. Also in multiball any doctors should only be able to prevent one kill and it would be easy for a cop of any kind to get piled if they out as being an alignment cop without specifying which faction they can identify.

It looks like I'm not going to get my desired reaction, so I'm just going to go ahead and explain the strat. My desired reaction was in fact pushback against using the strategy on the basis of it being unfun, as scum would be unlikely to want to be seen as being antitown in order to preserve the fun of the game.

The way dice tags work, there's a static string of numbers generated that gives a permanent value to the tags. That way, if you quote the tags it gives a static response instead of rerolling the dice.

For example:

Original Roll String: 1d8 (STATIC)

1 8-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

Code: Select all

[dice]1d8 0101010101[/dice]

Will always give a value of 7.

If we forced everyone to claim their alignment roll and then provide a 10 digit code that resulted in that roll, it would take any normal scum player longer to fabricate the roll than it would take a town player to hunt down the static string from their actual roll.

This would not confirm anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, and in the case of people like me who know the way the dice tags work it would be trivial to set up a fake roll ahead of time. Paraphrasing the 10 digit code in a way that didn't use cryptography would be trivial. Additionally, it would not be OGI as it's simply applying a knowledge of the way the forum works.

Angleshooty as fuck? Yes. Ethically bankrupt? Yes. But actually against the rules? No.

Of course, giving all of this information at the beginning of the process makes the strategy worse than useless, because scum would know exactly how to provide a false positive result and PMing yourself a bunch of dice rolls to make sure you have a town result to use would take almost no time at all. But I never really wanted to generate townreads this way in the first place, just see how people responded to the idea that I could.

(For proof of concept that I would not actually use a strategy like this as town (and thus, as scum looking for towncred), see the Lovers and Losers game in my topics that I caused to get rerolled when a similar oversight gave AI information and I pointed it out.)

[Bingle]

I thought you were intentionally dumb telling to trick scum into shooting a non-game-ending jester tbh, didn't think you actually thought jester was game-ending.

Considered not bringing up cyrus's pointing out that jester wasn't game ending for that reason, actually, but decided that it was unlikely to pay off.

[Bingle]

Paraphrasing the 10 digit code in a way that didn't use cryptography would be trivial.

It would most certainly be against the spirit of the rules, and that was explicit from the word go, but neither quoting nor cryptography would have been necessary.

Regardless, it's a dead end at this point, because in explaining it I also told scum exactly how to play around it so it's a moo point regardless.

[Bingle]

Okay. You're more than welcome to avoid playing with me in the future, it won't hurt my feelings. Also, whether I would be blacklisted by players for using a strategy I never actually intended to use is a pretty ridiculous talking point.

[Bingle]

The scum motive to lie is to see how coordinated the town could get if prodded just right

wat?

Also, please explain your meaning here, instead of dodging the question.

[Bingle]

I literally pointed out the game break in one of your marathon designs despite not being able to commit to playing the game in the hopes that the game would be better.

Like, 70% of my site presence is balancing and modding games. You should be 0% surprised that I would try to find breaking strategies, because I am a mechanically oriented player who is particularly good at, wait for it, breaking setups.

[Bingle]

"see how coordinated the town could get if prodded just right"

What does this mean and why is it proscum for it to be a known value?

Like, are you saying that scum would fake a breaking strategy in order to see if they could convince town to claim their alignment rolls? Because that seems like the epitome of useless information.

[Bingle]

I propose we find scum by interacting with people and forming reads. You know, like in all of the mafia games.

Why do you think me and loft here is scum theater?

[Bingle]

Well, if you could get the town coordinated on your side, you could be god.

So your argument was that I had theoretically been faking a breaking strategy in the hopes that it would make me an obvious town leader in a likely multiball setup where I would then be susceptible to being shot and was going to ride the cred from a breaking strategy that didn't exist and never would have appeared to endgame. I definitely believe.

[Bingle]

Bingle, is there a mech break? Y/N?

Breaking strategy has already been outed and invalidated, but it did exist.

If the question is whether we could maybe break the setup based on roles, we'd have to massclaim to find out and without getting super into numbers which frankly I don't have time for atm I don't think it's likely enough to justify doing so.

Miller types and 3rd party statuses are the only things that should be claiming short of a full massclaim, which is literally throwing the game into the air and seeing what side lands on top.

[Bingle]

Eh. Cult is the single person who is the greatest threat to the traditional scumteams,

If someone is obviously cult, we don't really need to deal with them on D1 as town because they are a bigger threat to groupscum than the townies are.

I have done some thinking and concluded that these are blatant lies.
The cult's strength is that they have a faster “turns til endgame” clock than any other faction.

FTFY. You know who really dislikes getting endgamed? Mafia. It’s kind of why when balancing multi ball the scum teams are treated as though they oppose each other. Cult leader has all of the potential power of a town player and the additional ability to win the game over scum’s head.

From a scum perspective, the biggest threats are, in order: Cult, other groups of scum, solo scum, town, neutral third parties. Neutral third parties, of course, balancing as a guaranteed miselimination.

[Bingle]

If we forced everyone to claim their alignment roll and then provide a 10 digit code that resulted in that roll, it would take any normal scum player longer to fabricate the roll than it would take a town player to hunt down the static string from their actual roll.

I don't think this would've worked for people like me that fudged their alignment roll. But I imagine I was in the minority there

It wouldn’t. But you don’t need to confirm every towny for it to be a breaking strategy, just enough to drastically shift the balance of the game. Regardless, it won’t work for anyone now.

[Bingle]

Bingle, is there a mech break? Y/N?

Breaking strategy has already been outed and invalidated, but it did exist.

If the question is whether we could maybe break the setup based on roles, we'd have to massclaim to find out and without getting super into numbers which frankly I don't have time for atm I don't think it's likely enough to justify doing so.

Miller types and 3rd party statuses are the only things that should be claiming short of a full massclaim, which is literally throwing the game into the air and seeing what side lands on top.

what would a 3dr party be? Would that be jester sk cult or surviver?

Any of the above, although presumably SK wouldn’t play ball because they have no reason to.

[Bingle]

I don't think faking alignment dice is too hard, scum must be totally incompetent to unable do that, and if so, i think we should find them anyway.

Faking a town result would be trivial. Faking a 6, specifically, would not be. Hence: my revealing the entire strategy in one post making said strategy worse than useless.

Also, we should really stop saying what we used the fudge dice on because there are things to be read into from that.

[Bingle]

Bud. If your only defence is to re-write what I said and then respond to that imaginary post, then you're doomed. Flattered that you'd write fanfiction about me though.

Your original post was based on obviously wrong information. Cult isn’t scary to groupscum because they recruit people. Cult is scary to groupscum because they endgame groupscum faster than groupscum endgames cult.

Also, FTFY means fixed that for you.

Maybe, instead of shading me for “misrepresentation” that clearly wasn’t actually misrepresentation you could explain how you spent a day to arrive at the conclusion that cult leader isn’t a bigger threat to scum than individual townies.

Also, I’m just not going to bother replying to anyone else who asks questions about the strategy that explicitly said was against the spirit but not the letter of the rules and also doesn’t work any more because I invalidated it myself.

[Bingle]

ssbm_Kyouko
Dragon of the West
Save The Dragons

Dwlee99

Dunnstral
StrangeMatter
Enchant
RegRider
Mama Ru

cyrus62
Loftwing
Quiet Owl

This is roughly where I’m at.

[Bingle]

Mafia want to stay aliveee, while also maybe scumhunting, but probably just hunting for town.

Literally the opposite. Multi ball is hard specifically because scum can and should genuinely scumhunt which makes generating reliable townreads more difficult.

Hunting cult atp is generic scumhunting without the associative tells.

[Bingle]

What am I doing at the top here

I think you actively pushing against the thread getting derailed by irrelevant mechspeak makes you more likely town than the people who have done functionally nothing.

[Bingle]

Why do you rank Kyouko so high up?

Kyouko’s response to “I think loft was trying to dig for how to escape a potential strat” was to immediately ask about the strat. Additionally, 161, 166, and 226 all struck me as town motivated.

Mafia want to stay aliveee, while also maybe scumhunting, but probably just hunting for town.

Literally the opposite. Multi ball is hard specifically because scum can and should genuinely scumhunt which makes generating reliable townreads more difficult.

Hunting cult atp is generic scumhunting without the associative tells.

The mafia need to strike a balance between genuinely scumhunting, and hunting for town, because they can never genuinely find their own teammates.

They don’t have to genuinely find their own teammates. That’s the point. They can genuinely find other groups.

[Bingle]

What irrelevant mechspeak could you be talking about?

Basically everything about the strategy post the invalidation of the strategy. And yes, I’m aware that it is mostly my fault the discussion exists.

[Bingle]

Makes note to town skip page ten I think loft and bingel are working together .

HEAL: loft not that healing is part of this game but at this point I trust them more then most.

This, btw, is my sole reason for scumreading Cyrus. I can see the scum slip argument if I squint, but everything other than this weird shade for engaging in scum theater just reads as Cyrus being Cyrus to me.

[Bingle]

So… I have a method by which we could maybe break the game but it is both unfun and at the very least against the spirit of the rules.

Thoughts?

How can this be done? You said "maybe" - does it depend on what people actually rolled, or are you unsure if it will work and it is independent of rolls?

So… I have a method by which we could maybe break the game but it is both unfun and at the very least against the spirit of the rules.

Thoughts?

How can this be done? You said "maybe" - does it depend on what people actually rolled, or are you unsure if it will work and it is independent of rolls?

It does depend on the rolls (there are theoretical worlds where it nets us no information in fact) and would explicitly not work with me or anyone I was partnered with. In fact, prior knowledge of how it works completely negates any advantage it might bring.

Were you aware I just called out loftwing as potential scum because it felt like they were fishing for ways to mitigate the strategy?

This progression, loft. It rings like she don’t give no fucks about how she’s seen, which is the opposite of survivalism.

And yeah, I didn’t mean to include survivalism in the umbrella of literally the opposite. That is a tell that still applies, although it’s also a PR tell, which is largely why I was hoping we’d get a jester claim today.

[Bingle]

I do find it odd that no neutral players have claimed yet. Then again, half of them would be a Serial Killer anyway.

It’s entirely possible they simply don’t exist.

[Bingle]

this is why i think me posting is hurting town. note bingel may have already found out my role so hes hoping to get me to out it. and i cant express this enough me outing my role hurts town and helps scum. so fucking lay off.

Frankly? No. And I wouldn't even if I were scum.

I care exactly 0 about your role. I neither trust you to be telling the truth about your role being powerful, nor your ability to determine whether your role is powerful in the first place. If indeed outing your role would hurt town as much as you say it would, that's on you for being fucking obvious in the first place. Further, given the way the setup is made, there is a very good chance we have an abundance of powerful roles because people with shit roles can simply fudge off of them,

and your quest for fudge applications has been the single most damaging rolefishing attempt in the thread.

[Bingle]

like i think i already messed up posting i think me hiding this game would have been best.

??????

Like I know I'm guilty of skimming Cyrus's posts but how did NO ONE at least ask about this?

Cyrus what is this post

I
I was ignoring it as a PR softclaim, tbh.

It does look like something that one would say in the scum werk room.

If it was anyone besides Cyrus I'd be more inclined to give space for it being a PR soft.... But it's Cyrus and reads like a PT!slip

This, Dunn.

[Bingle]

(I also think that a Jester wouldn't self-vote in XLO because executing a Mafia member at least will continue the game while doing nothing makes them lose)

I have a hard time reconciling this with actual thoughts.

Sure, there are three options:

Continue Game, Lose Game, Win Game. Why the fuck would anyone choose Continue Game over Win Game? How did you even arrive at that being a thing anyone might ever choose?

[Bingle]

(I also think that a Jester wouldn't self-vote in XLO because executing a Mafia member at least will continue the game while doing nothing makes them lose)

I have a hard time reconciling this with actual thoughts.

Sure, there are three options:

Continue Game, Lose Game, Win Game. Why the fuck would anyone choose Continue Game over Win Game? How did you even arrive at that being a thing anyone might ever choose?

[Bingle]

Maybe I should have sad mc dop

You shouldn’t have, because the answer to your proposed question is “it guarantees their win.”

It would be the equivalent of tripping down an up escalator for half an hour and then saying mic drop as you were loaded into the ambulance.

[Bingle]

@owl

Bud. If your only defence is to re-write what I said and then respond to that imaginary post, then you're doomed. Flattered that you'd write fanfiction about me though.

Your original post was based on obviously wrong information. Cult isn’t scary to groupscum because they recruit people. Cult is scary to groupscum because they endgame groupscum faster than groupscum endgames cult.

Also, FTFY means fixed that for you.

Maybe, instead of shading me for “misrepresentation” that clearly wasn’t actually misrepresentation you could explain how you spent a day to arrive at the conclusion that cult leader isn’t a bigger threat to scum than individual townies.

Also, I’m just not going to bother replying to anyone else who asks questions about the strategy that explicitly said was against the spirit but not the letter of the rules and also doesn’t work any more because I invalidated it myself.

[Bingle]

I trust cyrus.

Particularly interested because the last thing you had to say was that you thought the scum slip was a scum slip afaict.

[Bingle]

Oh, and

VOTE: Loftwing

[Bingle]

I also didn’t realize you could fudge around the corner, FWIW. Likely doesn’t matter, but it just didn’t occur to me as a possibility.

[Bingle]

He said something that made no sense now I vote

I submit both Cyrus and loftwing as better examples of “saying things that don’t make any sense”

I don’t think it’s AI for Cyrus, but loftwing has this nice fancy wagon you could join.

[Bingle]

So i think best to look out for players who enjoy to play as scum, because they more likely fudged dice to get alignment they like and protect players who hate to play as them. But it's... yeah wine and such.

FWIW most of my motivation for joining this game was the potential to roll SK. (And also it seemed to be filling slowly)

[Bingle]

VOTE: Mama ru
ISO even more useless than mine

Have you looked at Dunnstral? The competition is stiff... this game is full of potential All Stars Of Lurk.

Truer words were never spoke, tbh.

I’m not really interested in rushing a lurker elim when I think it’s obvious that loft has been making up fake reasoning to be paranoid.

[Bingle]

Bingel play feels as if they are trying to sift votes off of one wagon .

Tell me more about how voting a scumread of mine that I outed before any current wagon is ‘trying to shift votes off of a wagon’.

Or don’t, I’m not actually interested.

[Bingle]

I don't care if you can reconciliate it with your thoughts. My thoughts aren't yours, and my thought process isn't yours to understand.

Your actual response to me trying to figure out your reasoning behind what I see as blatantly unreasonable paranoia.

You were 'paranoid' that I was faking a elaborate plan to be able to gauge whether I'd be able to lead the town with some unseen future manipulation.

You were 'worried' that a Jester wouldn't self vote in XLO when self voting in XLO is literally winning the game for a nonexclusive Jester.

I think both of those are scum trying to mimic town paranoia and not genuine things you were worried about, and you are provably not open to my probing as to why you were worried about those things, and I'd rather an elimination on someone actively scummy than someone who simply isn't playing the game, especially D1.

[Bingle]

Why does it matter so much that the cult is left alive?

I haven’t been arguing this for a while, and in fact no longer feel this way. I was arguing for specifically not eliminating Loftwing for the lolcult claim because I thought loftwing had decent jester equity and jester was game ending.

I don’t have a problem eliminating cult now, but telling the difference between individual types of scum is a fools errand so I’m just looking for scum to eliminate in general. The reason I keep correcting you on scum being a larger threat to scum than town is twofold: A. It’s true, and I always argue true (or true from my POV) game theory regardless in games because I want people to improve and B. Because scum hitting each other makes the game easier for town.

Scum are a larger threat to scum than town because they are also people who don’t share a wincon, but they necessarily have more tools in their toolbox than town does.

[Bingle]

I don't understand why in a game that probably has a larger scum proportion than normal people are being so chickenshit with their votes.

[Bingle]

I mean... that makes it worse. This is a game balanced around there being more scum than usual and multiball (8/20 or 40% as opposed to 3/13 or 23%) and the roles are thus stronger for town. There's a plethora of strong town power to counteract the theory that there will be more scum than usual. If there's a roughly normal number of town players AND power roles to justify more scum, then we probably just roflstomp. If there's not a roughly normal number of town players because the fudge system evened out then random eliminations are more likely to be successful so we should be less cautious about our D1, not more. And let's be clear, the fudge dice mechanic is massively townsiding.

This scared to engage crap is just a waste of time.

RegRider, Dunnstral, Loftwing, and Enchant all need to vote something.

Quiet Owl, Dragon of the West, cyrus62 and StrangeMatter all need to push their wagon dejure or move to something that actually has momentum.

@mod: DotW, Reg, and cyrus are all due prods (31 hours over due in DotW's case)

[Bingle]

Seriously, the mod has more posts than >50% of the thread.

[Bingle]

One day town will realize I only act this way as town but that's not this day.

If you can say that and have it not be bullshit it's called trust telling and it's a ban worthy offense.

Seriously, the mod has more posts than >50% of the thread.

More bs I have 101 post this game so far 102 counting this one.

People with more posts than the mod:

cyrus, Bingle, Loft, SM, DW

People in game 13.

8/13 players have fewer posts than the mod, which is more than 50%.

[Bingle]

It's still whoever my vote is on

Somehow you’re not one of the people I’m calling out for inactivity here. And isn’t that saying something.

[Bingle]

I’m not about that lolhammer when we should have pending replacements life.
UNVOTE:

[Bingle]

Yeah okay

VOTE: regrider

[Bingle]

I got really busy this week and kind of forgot about this game. Catching up now

Oh god, he’s back. I’m going to go throw a party.

[Bingle]

Anyway Kyo and ru look scummy af for hopping on me there

Regrider please instead

It would only put him to 4 votes still not close to hammer range.

Formatting seems fine I think you accidentally disabled BBCode.

[Bingle]

Ah, people actually doing things? What is this madness?

I’ll make a readswall later.

[Bingle]

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The bitch that roleblocked me can stay in the werk room.

Could it be possible you targeted person who killed Dunnstral-Ascteticizer and thus now roleblock every not-NK visit? Or it doesh't work at same night?

Go ahead and full claim now please.

[Bingle]

Also, cyrus is probably an SK.

[Bingle]

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The bitch that roleblocked me can stay in the werk room.

Could it be possible you targeted person who killed Dunnstral-Ascteticizer and thus now roleblock every not-NK visit? Or it doesh't work at same night?

Go ahead and full claim now please.

Me?

Yes. I am hard claiming investigative. Claim or die.

[Bingle]

I would like to point out that if bingel didn't shoot down my idea we would know who is 3p . But it is what it is.

You mean like how I pointed out exactly why survivor or Jester *should* claim on D1?

Why were you so sure a cult existed, cyrus?

[Bingle]

I wasn't . But I wanted people to claim c. If they rolled c . Hoping they didn't read the setup . If they didn't read the setup then I would have netted some 3p but you didn't want them to claim c.

I explicitly explained why both survivor and jester should claim on D1. SK would never claim on D1. Continuing to misrep me doesn't actually change that. And I really don't think that the 41 instances of the exact word cult in your role PM are an indication of not thinking there was a cult.

[Bingle]

wait till day three damn it.

No.

I. Have. A. Guilty. Result. On. Enchant.

[Bingle]

I don’t think that’s a useful path to travel down today, loft. Ru should claim her target, but her role can probably wait.

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

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The bitch that roleblocked me can stay in the werk room.

Could it be possible you targeted person who killed Dunnstral-Ascteticizer and thus now roleblock every not-NK visit? Or it doesh't work at same night?

Go ahead and full claim now please.

Me?

Yes. I am hard claiming investigative. Claim or die.

[Bingle]

B

ingle would never do something as uncool as faking a guilty.

I fakeclaimed investigative to bait a night kill in a neighborhood I was sure contained scum once, but no. I wouldn’t fake a guilty as town.

[Bingle]

I’m a bloodhound and enchant came back as not town.

Ru, who’d you target before we turbolim this?

[Bingle]

More specifically, I’m an evangelistic bloodhound.

[Bingle]

I wasn't . But I wanted people to claim c. If they rolled c . Hoping they didn't read the setup . If they didn't read the setup then I would have netted some 3p but you didn't want them to claim c.

I explicitly explained why both survivor and jester should claim on D1. SK would never claim on D1. Continuing to misrep me doesn't actually change that. And I really don't think that the 41 instances of the exact word cult in your role PM are an indication of not thinking there was a cult.

The setup reads. If you roll cult but it was al ready rolled or claimd making the cult leader 1st come 1st severd. But after wards the mod added they would fudge all cult rolls into 3p. That is why I stated who ever rolled cult but didn't get it to put c . And if you didn't roll cult put na . And if you fudge a dice put f and put 1 2 or 3 to let us know you fudge one . I then said I rolled na and fudge dice 2.

Cyrus, I understand the setup.

I explained why survivor should claim. I explained why jester should claim. I explained why claiming if and how you used a fudge dice is incredibly anti town. Nothing you say changes any of that.

You spent all of D1 searching specifically for a cult, implying you knew it existed. Because you probably rolled cult and got assigned SK.

[Bingle]

Why you asking me for claim if you already know i am "not town" then?

Miller claims and voluntary leashing prospects. It’s pretty standard to wait to out whether you’re a tracker or cop until there’s a response.

Also, I’m not dumb enough to fake a guilty D2 as a fairly universal town read with two flipped scum as scum. I’m also not dumb enough to not take the free win rolling Jester offers in this setup, especially to then claim something that almost certainly gets me shot tonight.

Nice try though.

[Bingle]

You forgot to vote me.

I didn’t. I’m waiting for the rest of the town to talk and Ru to claim her target.

[Bingle]

Well, then you probably should take rest in nearest grave, not running around, because i am Town Paranoid Gun Owner. Miracle? Doctor save? Or probably Bulletproof. Only possible reasons you breath.
Oh right, you just pulled randomguilty and didn't visit me.

VOTE: Bingle

Scumclaim, btw.

If Enchant was a rampaging pgo, anyone who fox’s me would have died.

[Bingle]

Docced. Fuck autocorrect

[Bingle]

Enchant literally claimed D1 that he rolled a 4 and fudged it down 3 to get a 1.

[Bingle]

Bus driver doesn’t explain it. They’d die targeting a pgo if enchant were telling the truth.

[Bingle]

I asked bingel and encant to tell us thire roll enchant told us bingel chicken out.

You’re right, I did ignore your request for useless noise.

[Bingle]

Sure. Having fullclaimed I can’t check the OP to see what I would have rolled to get the fake claim, nor would I have done so when I decided to fake a claim in the first place and it definitely wouldn’t be faster to check the OP to see what I rolled than to go into my old PMs in the first place.

Your request is useless at best and bloating the thread with garbage at worst. There are fucking 0 worlds where we eliminate the cop over the cop guilty with two flipped scum on D2, and pretending otherwise is hilarious. The fact that the cop guilty is apparently a PGO who decided to stay a PGO (literally the most anti town role in the setup) as someone who was overwhelmingly likely to be town instead of fudging it to any of:

3 - JOAT (With a 1-shot of Alignment Cop, Doctor, Roleblocker, and one role on this list (roll d20) each.)
4 - Mason-type (Roll d20, rerolling same-faction results, to determine if they are added to the Hypogeans, Masons, Monks, Truthers, Atheists, or Neighborhood Watch, based on what evil alignment rolls)
5 - Neighborizer/Cult Leader
6 - Fruit Vendor
8 - Parity Cop
9 - Role Cop
10 - Tracker
11 - Asceticizer

And then didn’t claim PGO in a rolemadness game as lurktown because apparently he actively wanted to kill off town investigators and was somehow targeted by a bus driver (fucking why?) who drove him with a scum player and was also scum because they didn’t claim to have performed the action and also the scum bus driver was targeted by specifically a doctor so they wouldn’t die due to targeting a pgo.

Any narrative where enchant is anything but scum requires multiple scum to have been acting in concert to fuck with my result.

[Bingle]

Shia La Beaouf ate people?

Assuming Shia La Beaouf is a people. All we really know for sure based on cannibal status is that he eats others of his species.

[Bingle]

Ru, who’d you target? They have an abnormally large chance of having shot Dunn?

[Bingle]

Oh, nvm. I see you partied with Dwlee.

[Bingle]

ssbm_Kyouko- Flipped Cult leader.
Dunnstral- Flipped Town.
RegRider- Flipped Mafia.

Bingle - Bloodhound with Glowing Eyes


Dragon of the West - Subjectively my strongest townread. We’ve been occupying similar headspaces
Mama Ru - Roleblocked targeting Dwlee, the way she went about claiming was frustrating but showed absolutely no desire to hide from multiball cross kills. I’d probably doc here tonight if I wasn’t the obvious NK.
Save The Dragons - Stale read, but I know the inactivity is NAI because he was inactive modding at roughly the same time.
Loftwing - has seemed townier EOD yesterday and today (hence my deciding to throw in on reg over Loft). Also, CW to reg means probably not specifically mafia.
StrangeMatter - true null, should probably look into this.
Dwlee99 - circumstantial evidence of scum shenanigans. Will be weaker evidence if evidence of a roleblocker comes to light. Have thought they were townish by play, but this was on the short list to investigate.
Quiet Owl - Not paired with Enchant, but the “There could be a bus driver” feels like scum TMI to me.
cyrus62 - Survivalist as shit, may have TMI’d cult existence D1, softing an even only PR incredibly hard and trying to convince protectives to sit on him when there are clearly better targets. This could be Cyrus being Cyrus, but it seems over the top, even for him.
Enchant - Claimed SK, wants a leash. Confirmed scum by Bingle.

[Bingle]

I didn't target anyone last night so I wasn't reflexively asceticized

There are alternatives. There could have been a roleblocker of either alignment on Ru, for example.

Given that we almost certainly have a protective role of either the doctor or babysitter variety, a scum roleblocker will likely be trying to prevent me from investigating tonight. A town roleblocker will probably want to claim prior to seeing you flip if they targeted Ru.

TL;DR there are mechanically oriented concerns about your slot which we should be in a much better position to answer tomorrow than today, but we do need to answer them, and I wanted to note that in case scum wins a gamble on our protections being gated and I die tonight.

[Bingle]

If I were cult leader I would have targeted STD last night. Thoughts?

[Bingle]

I think Cult is last threat you should think. At worst it's lone cultist who most likely can't kill, at best convert failed.

True. It was more a talking point while we wait for people to check in than a serious desire to eliminate STD. I had been thinking that equivalently scummy slots could be resolved in order of likelihood of recruitment, but the weird cult resolution makes that moot.

If we do leash you, who do you like for scum?

[Bingle]

Kyouko is my NK (so techically i didn't commit any crimes cuz cult doesh't have human rights).

[Bingle]

... Actually it's you supposed to make calls here, and i follow them i quess.

Honestly your POV on who might be scum is probably more valuable than mine to the thread at large. You are a known quantity. You want to convince town that you are useful enough to keep around instead of eliminating you and reducing the KPN. Theoretically I could be a scum bloodhound who just so happened to find scum of another flavor and outed the guilty because I was unconcerned about getting NK'd myself and desperately wanted the towncred (which doesn't really make any sense, but is theoretically a thing I could be doing).

Additionally, if you're lying about being SK and are actually groupscum you scumhunting now could potentially give us clues about possible partners.

[Bingle]

i have a huge problem

Is it that they haven't invented a method to get alcohol into the body fast enough?

[Bingle]

Not really fishy. There is no set of rolls that gives me the ability to check your alignment and prevents my death if you’re telling the truth, so either I was suicidally faking a guilty (why?), enchant isn’t a PGO, I’m scum with that enchant and this is theater or I was protected.

[Bingle]

Dragon o/t West is the only one who hasn’t checked in.

[Bingle]

Once he does let's kill enchant

Well yeah.

[Bingle]

Let's stop with the rolefishing, okay? Okay.

[Bingle]

At the very least, if I die tonight it would be confirmed that Enchant is a PGO.

I mean... there's functionally 0 worlds in which we don't eliminate Enchant today. (Sorry Enchant.) I was mostly leading them on for potential additional information.

First of all, eliminating Enchant confirms the existence of a Doctor role. Second of all, we only have Enchant's word that they're a 3p and not groupscum, and we're in a position where we don't need an additional town kill here. Third, this is a role madness game, so the odds are that town players will also have powerful roles, so risking a town elimination to keep a nontown player around just doesn't make sense. Fourth, killing an actual SK reduces the KPN of the game, which is incredibly protown in this type of situation.

Given knowledge about what roles exist, Ru/Me/Cyrus are all claimed enough that we're bad RB targets. I'd probably hit Dwlee myself, given that they claimed not to have acted last night. Now that you're claimed it is worth it to claim in advance, as with 3 flipped scum who was blocked at night starts being pretty valuable information. If you choose a protective role to block, they should not claim, as the known existence of a protective role might be enough to keep me alive and them outing is bad for town anyway.

With as much information as is on the table, tomorrow is probably massclaim day.

In case I die, I propose the order of

cyrus62
StrangeMatter
Dragon of the West
Save The Dragons
Mama Ru
Dwlee99
Loftwing
Quiet Owl

No this is not a readslist order, but there are reasons for all of the placements which will not be discussed today.

I won't be claiming my invest target for tonight, as there's no real point to doing so.

[Bingle]

Huh. I think I know almost every extant role based on crumbs and softclaims. Interesting.

As is, it is more than likely that loft was swapped with me and std saw me investigate enchant. I didn’t die either because enchant isn’t really a pgo or because I was saved by a doc who presumably originally targeted loftwing.

[Bingle]

Also, cyrus is probably an SK.

What makes you think Cyrus is specifically SK?

I think that he was informed about the existence of cult yesterday.

[Bingle]

Actions, as claimed and reasonably explained.

Ru's action failed on Dwlee, either because Loft blocked her or because Dwlee killed PirateInuyasha. (Or Both)

Enchant ambushed monochromatic anime girl with all of the guns, and shot me. Luckly, Christopher angry ears Eccleston, our resident Doctor, and a badger who is inordinately concerned with the persecution of dragons were on a bus to stop birds from getting all up in Mama's hair. Seeing me bleeding out on the side of the road, CE saved my life and STD told everyone I'd been headed to Enchant's house. Naturally, they didn't have time to protect Ru from the birds.

Miss Frizzle, of course, was driving the bus, but she was wearing a QO mask. We do not as yet know if this is because Miss Frizzle actually is an angry owl with a knife or if the Angry Owl with the knife merely happened to give her the mask.

Dwlee says they stayed home all night, presumably practicing that sick deadpan into the mirror in order to prevent giving away any hints as to their emotions today.

Cyrus, Strange and the Dragon our badger friend wants to prevent the persecution of are very private individuals and have not at this time made any noise about what they were up to last night.

Of these, none of the actions really have a motive behind lying or they have corroborating evidence that things actually did turn out this way. That means it's very likely that Dunn's killer is in the set of {Cyrus/Strange/Dragon/Dwlee}. If Dwlee is scum, it's more likely that Loft is their partner than anyone else, as Loft's claim reduces the impact of the circumstantial evidence that Dwlee was scum. Loft flipping RB, consequently, reinforces that the failure of Ru's action wasn't particularly likely to have been caused by Dunn.

Untangling this further isn't a great idea today. I'm satisfied with this phase and coming back to the puzzle with more information/confirmations of abilities.

VOTE: Enchant

[Bingle]

Also, I don't think that Dweelee killed anyone here. It's not a hard clear, but they di'n't do no murderin''

There is absolutely no mechanical basis for this, based solely on what has already been claimed. Note: this is not an invitation to other people to claim more, we can figure it out tomorrow when Dwlee's elimination is actually on the metaphorical chopping block and we have more information in the first place.

[Bingle]

If I get driven again tonight I'd prefer it isn't with Ru. I expect she's the next most likely NK based on crumbs and I would 100% doc there if I were a doc.

[Bingle]

I actually rolled 15 different Double modifiers, so I acted 16 different times last night /s

Shoulda been a vig.

[Bingle]

If I get driven again tonight I'd prefer it isn't with Ru. I expect she's the next most likely NK based on crumbs and I would 100% doc there if I were a doc.

Actually, bus driver, you can ignore this. It occurs to me that aiming a bus drive at me to try to turn the NK into a vigshot works better if scum doesn't know if you're targeting someone towny or scummy.

[Bingle]

Actually, Enchant is not a Serial Killer, or else they have lied by omission.

What lie?

[Bingle]

My second role roll was Complex Serial Killer (actually i rolled Complex Vigilante, but SK can't be Vigilante here), but i obviously didn't choose it.

This part?

[Bingle]

Also just use DotW or something like that for me because saying "Dragon" with both STD and myself in the same game is confusing as hell

That’s not really the most confusing nickname. STD is clearly a badger teaching a bunch of lizards to fight ninjas that hate blind people.

[Bingle]

I will use dotw when I’m not making comedic action summaries though.

[Bingle]

StrangeMatter, you should have had results, why didn't you crumb them? Is it because you only wanted your red partners to know? Talk to Mama.

What? I have no clue what you are even talking about here.

Secondly, cyrus I'm Even Night Vigilante. I was wondering why my shot on Loftwing didn't go off and now I know why.

I rolecopped you, this is a lie, love.

And that is depressing.

But you do wanna know something completely funny? Somehow, both me and Enchant got the exact same roles and modifiers of different alignments.

This is another lie if you were pgo you would have killed mama

They would not have, actually. I docced mama.

[Bingle]

cyrus62 - Even night jk
StrangeMatter - WW PGO
Save The Dragons - tracker
Mama Ru - rolecop
Dwlee99 - unclaimed?
Loftwing - rb
BINGLE - joat

[Bingle]

Dwlee99 wat is role?

[Bingle]

Hm. Ru needs to confirm bus drives but we should probably be in autowin.

[Bingle]

They would have killed cyrus, no?

Cyrus didn’t target strange. Strange was driven and killed owl.

[Bingle]

Anyway I think we just kill claimed scum again???

And hopefully that is a win?

Probably not. None of the claimed roles explain why I lived after targeting enchant.

[Bingle]

Ru’s role op should resolve the bus drive.

[Bingle]

Rather, yes we kill claimed scum but it doesn’t really answer everything so there’s probably another lie.

[Bingle]

You continue to not understand bus drivers. You tried to target strange, but instead when you got to stranges house one of the other drive targets was there. You jailkept whoever that was, which is the same person mama Ru rc’d.

If mama says that the role she got as an answer isn’t evangejoat, rb, or rc then we know there is a liar in Ru/Bingle/Loft/STD and can work out a block order based on that. Or Ru can confirm how the bus drive panned out.

[Bingle]

That was @ Cyrus, btw

[Bingle]

It do indeed.

I can confirm that Ru is a rolecop via the cop finder portion. I hadn’t even hinted at it because it’s useless. That means anyone who attempted to target me instead targeted strange and I was rolecopped by Ru and blocked/protected by Cyrus and loftwing. Strange tried to strangle loft supposedly, which should have ended up on Ru. Either strange is lying or there was shenanigans.

Tonight, Cyrus should be unable to act. I will be blocking std. loft should block me. Ru can investigate dwlee99. Std should investigate Cyrus. Any potential kill will result in a mech 1v1 or enough conftown to PoE to victory, assuming the game started with enough town to be in the realm of winnable.

VOTE: strange
If there’s a scumkill we should be

[Bingle]

Who else should I block? I don't think that targeting the joat here is a good idea.

You blocking me turns Std back on and confirms I didn’t kill. Std being able to act confirms you only killed if you’re multitasking.

It’s fine to have dwlee block Cyrus, so Cyrus won’t be able to kill. STD can then invest dwlee. Ru can investigate std.

[Bingle]

I'm pretty sure JK doesn't solve the "I survived" conundrum, so Dwlee isn't the last scum based on that. (Ru and I, also not last scum via same logic.)

Loft either IS a rb or is paired with Dwlee who killed Dunn.

I'll come back to this in a bit.

[Bingle]

VOTE: dw I think your pulling something. I am town even night jk.

Dw cannot be solo scum at this point.

[Bingle]

I'm pretty sure JK doesn't solve the "I survived" conundrum, so Dwlee isn't the last scum based on that. (Ru and I, also not last scum via same logic.)

Loft either IS a rb or is paired with Dwlee who killed Dunn.

I'll come back to this in a bit.

Can you say this with more words and maybe a diagram?

Sure. No diagrams tonight, but I can provide those in the next day or so.

[Bingle]

Basically, we have one mechanical interaction that is unresolved. I targeted enchant. Either my targeting of enchant succeeded and I should be dead or owl bus drove enchant and owl should have died night one. From my perspective, I know that is true.

Technically, it is feasible that I would have lied about bloodhounding enchant and relied on owl being outed as bus driver to get me out of a fake guilty as scum with owl, but why would I? I wouldn’t have had a way to know enchant was a pgo as scum any more than I did as town.

Given this, and the fact that none of the flipped roles can explain the lack of me and/or owl dying on Night 1, we have a role that caused me or owl to survive N1. None of the claimed roles can do so, given that I explicitly wasn’t blocked. Therefore, mama Ru is actually a full cop at this point, if we assume there is only one scum remaining (the one that prevented my death.)

Technically, you or Ru could be scum in addition to the scum who led to the mechanical strangeness on N1, but you are not the sole remaining scum because your role is confirmed to be unable to resolve the inconsistency.

[Bingle]

VOTE: dw I think your pulling something. I am town even night jk.

Dw cannot be solo scum at this point.

How so? Dweelee could be an instance of SCP-3008-2, and therefore have access to only 1 kill which they either may no longer have access to now (it was used up before), or they chose not to use it tonight.

That’s the reason the roleblocked weren’t clearing, not the reason the rolecop was.

[Bingle]

Loft and std both have evidence that their roles are real too, btw. STD being able to act means I was blocked. Std knowing owl targets implies actually being a tracker, although that is more fake able.

The question is do we slow roll the game and wait until mama gives us our guilty or do we risk unknown corner cases (loft/std team mutually fakeclaiming, for example) and just go for the win?

[Bingle]

There is a protective role barring major mod error.

Protective role did not out in massclaim.

Therefore: protective role is scum.

Ru is rolecop.

Therefore: protective role (and thus scum) can be found via nightplay.

Every jk, Rb, or tracker clears their target if Ru gets nk’d.

[Bingle]

I submit the following:

Paranoid Gun Owner may be preventable via roleblock, and the bus driver fucked with our results enough to land one of our roleblockers onto Enchant.

That would fall under major mod error but we can check.

@cook: would a roleblocker prevent a pgo from killing?

[Bingle]

To explain, pgo is explicitly a passive role and rbs explicitly do not affect passive roles.

[Bingle]

I forget what all the claims are but do we really not have a non-roleblocking protect

Closest is me. I obviously could not have docced myself the same night I bloodhounded enchant.

[Bingle]

flavor

After a long day in New Jersey the collective Jerseyites decide to throw

RegRider

into the hole. Seven of them lay hands on

RegRider

... and

RegRider

bungee jumps into the hole.

A few seconds later...
"Oh look! Guys! There's a buffet down here!"

"What?" one of the Jerseyites inquires.

"An entire buffet! Look!" The whole of New Jersey looks into the hole. Sure enough, there's a buffet down there.

The group pulls up

RegRider

and rappels down to the buffet. The sunlight does not follow them into the red-looking world down there. It's really too dark to make out any details.

The bungee cord snaps and whacks

RegRider

in the face with extreme velocity, dropping a calling card onto the buffet. While you wouldn't be able to read it because of how dark it is, I'll let you know that it confirms:

RegRider was a member of the

Butler Conspiracy

and a Doubled Role Cop.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are part of the

Butler Conspiracy.

The Butler Conspiracy is a secret cabal of murderers who conceal the terrible secret that

all the butlers did it

! Did what? Who knows!
What I do know, though, is that New Jersey is full of people who know your secret. So you might want to, uh, assert control over New Jersey to stop the secret, eh?

You are a

Mafia Doubled Role Cop

- Target up to two people at night. Assuming no interference, you will learn each's role, but not their alignment. Vanillas, Townies, Goons, Vanilla Cultists, and Third-Party without additional abilities attached all return the same result – vanilla.
- You also have access to the Mafia's factional kill.

You have a PT in which you can talk to your buddies at any time, located {HYPERLINK BLOCKED}.
The game thread is here. Please confirm.

It is now Night 1. (expired on 2021-10-28 02:06:58) until deadline.

flavor

The sounds of a scuffle can be heard in the darkness. When a professional

Dunnstral

impersonator figures out how to hotwire their phone to generate a portable sun, light is restored to the room...

To reveal

Dunnstral

's body and

ssbm_Kyouko

's body in a neat pile on top of the buffet.

The Jerseyites are moderately concerned about the loss of one of their own, but are also excited that they're all free of the tyranny of country club memberships.

The main concern among the group is figuring out who spoiled the banquet and figuring out how to banish them from the group.

Dunnstral was an

Innocent Citizen of New Jersey

and a Reflexive Asceticizer.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are an

Innocent Citizen of New Jersey.

I don't know how long this place will remain New Jersey though, so you might want to act quick. Get rid of all the unsavory types before they seize this great state for themselves!

You are a

Town Reflexive Asceticizer.

- Anyone who visits you will be affected by your Asceticizer ability.
- Asceticizing someone causes non-kill abilities targeting them to fail.

The game thread is here. Please confirm.

ssbm_Kyouko was the

Country Club Owner

and a Complex Mason-Finder.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are the

Country Club Owner.

Wait this isn't your country club! You'll just have to convince everyone it is with your

shadowy country-club-owning illusion magic.

Proceed, my dear! Sell as many memberships as you can! Scam

all those innocent Jerseyites out of their hard-earned Spondulicks!

You are a

Cult Leader Complex Mason-Finder.

- Target someone at night. Assuming no interference, they will be converted to the

Country Club Cult

. Your ability will succeed on players aligned as Town, Third-Party, and solo surviving members of Mafia, Werewolves, or Aliens.
- Target someone at night. Assuming no interference, you will learn if they are a Mason-type (Hypogean, Mason, Monk, Truther, Atheist, Neighborhood Watch) role or not. Your ability only succeeds on non-Vanilla players.

You have a Cult PT in which you can talk with your buddies at any time, located {HYPERLINK BLOCKED}.
The game thread is here. Please confirm.

Day Two Begins!

headcount

Headcount (10): Bingle, Enchant, Quiet Owl, Mama Ru, Dwlee99, Dragon of the West, cyrus62, Loftwing, StrangeMatter, Save The Dragons

With 10 alive it takes 6 people to reach a decision.
With 3 dead the deadline is 8 days 12 hours, of which (expired on 2021-11-06 02:00:07) remains.

Flip coming tomorrow. Sorry for the delay, folks.

flavor

After a Legendary Fight involving an Axe and a Knife,

Loftwing

decapitates a joke I've been waiting to do for a while...

Enchant

was

Actual Canni-

er,

Self-Aligned PGO Shia LaBeouf!

Spoiler: rolepm

Welcome! You are

Actual Cannibal, Shia LaBeouf!

Do you have any idea how long I've been waiting to make this joke? None? None at all?
Anyhow. Claim New Jersey for yourself! You just have twelve other people to eat. Good luck!

You are a

Serial Killer Paranoid Gun Owner.

- Target someone at night. Assuming no interference, you will kill them.
- You will passively attack anyone who visits you.

The game thread is here. Please confirm.

Night Two! (expired on 2021-11-03 12:53:52)

If you sent any night actions to Lilith she'll forward/has forwarded them to me. Thanks.

flavor

The server lags for a second, then updates suddenly...

Dragon of the West

and

Quiet Owl

are suspiciously less alive...

but on the other hand, neither of them were Jerseyites, so that's good.

Quiet Owl was a member of the

Butler Conspiracy

, and a Doubled Bus Driver.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are part of the

Butler Conspiracy.

The Butler Conspiracy is a secret cabal of murderers who conceal the terrible secret that

all the butlers did it

! Did what? Who knows!
What I do know, though, is that New Jersey is full of people who know your secret. So you might want to, uh, assert control over New Jersey to stop the secret, eh?

You are a

Mafia Doubled Bus Driver.

- Target up to two pairs of two people at night. Anyone targeting either player will have their target silently swapped to the other one. You may not target yourself, but you may target any allies you have.
- You also have access to the Mafia's factional kill.

You have a PT in which you can talk to your buddies at any time, located {HYPERLINK BLOCKED}.
The game thread is here. Please confirm.

Dragon of the West was an

IKEA Employee

and a Roleblocker.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are an

IKEA Employee.

Wait this isn't IKEA — it's New Jersey! But it could be IKEA, if you just got rid of everyone else!

You are an

Alien Roleblocker.

- Target someone at night. Assuming no interference, their night actions will be blocked.

You have a PT in which you can talk with your Alien buddies at any time, located {HYPERLINK BLOCKED}.
The game thread is here. You have special instructions for confirmation located in your Alien PT.

Day Three Begins!

headcount

Mama Ru, Dwlee99, Bingle, Save The Dragons, Loftwing, cyrus62, StrangeMatter

With 7 alive it takes 4 to reach majority.

With 6 dead the deadline is 7 days, of which (expired on 2021-11-11 18:35:16) are left.

first and last vc

StrangeMatter (4+1): Mama Ru, cyrus62, Bingle, Dwlee99

, StrangeMatter

With 7 alive it took 4 votes to hammer

StrangeMatter

, plus one extra, with 6 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes left on the clock.

flavor

The Town has run out of pits to throw people in, so

Dwlee99

decides to enforce the Will of the People and runs

StrangeMatter

through with a pitchfork.

This causes StrangeMatter to suddenly become a lot lighter...

...as the Town's collective collection of eating utensils clatters to the ground.

StrangeMatter was a

Cutlery Thief

and a Paranoid Gun Owner.

Spoiler: role pm

Welcome! You are a

Cutlery Thief.

You are a mild-mannered food critic by day, but by moonlight you transmorgrify into a horrible beast... who has the agenda of

stealing all the forks, knives, and spoons in New Jersey.

(gasp!) Will anyone be able to eat with proper manners again? Not if you have your way!

You are a

Werewolf Paranoid Gun Owner.

- You will reflexively shoot anyone who tries to visit you.
- You have access to the Werewolf factional kill.

You have a Werewolf PT in which you can talk with your buddies at any time, located {HYPERLINK BLOCKED}.
The game thread is here. Please confirm.

Night Three! (expired on 2021-11-07 10:59:21).

cyrus62 - Even night jk
Save The Dragons - tracker

Mama Ru - rolecop

Dwlee99 - jk

Loftwing - rb

BINGLE - joat

All roles. Bolder = confirmed.

[Bingle]

Loft is like 9/10 confirmed, barring fake claim shenanigans with a loft std team.

[Bingle]

I guess technically mama had a 1/400 chance of guessing the specific type of finder my joat rolled, too, so there’s that.

[Bingle]

The thing is that I don't see why a scum protective wouldn't claim here.

Honestly they should have.

But the timing was right after the bus driver flipped and explicitly they didn’t target me, the claimed cop, because they too would have died to strange. My guess is that they thought being caught in a role lie was less likely than being caught by a tracker.

[Bingle]

Sure, but it’s not the having of the role that’s incriminating. It’s the actively lying about having a very different role.

[Bingle]

In order of safest to least safe the options are: no yeet, Bingle, Cyrus, You, STD, DW, Mama.

If I had to guess the last scum or lose I would guess Cyrus every time.

[Bingle]

Dwlee can only be scum if they’re paired with Mama. Or solo with another solo scum in the setup.

Multitasking only means they rolled 5 for their modifier. It has nothing to do with alignment.

Being right about individual scum also doesn’t really net any towncred because we have no idea what flavor of scum remains.

[Bingle]

Doesn't Bingle have that 1-shot Cop Finder? I'm not sure if they've used that yet.

I do still have a cop finder, but unless someone magically fakeclaimed not cop as cop in addition to someone claiming not protective as protective then it's pointless because I wouldn't get a result PM anyway. Finder action fails when not targeting the found role.

[Bingle]

Actually, belay that. I double checked finder because I'd never used it before and it appears it does give (Cop/NotCop) results.

[Bingle]

Would it work if you jailkept STD, and I roleblocked Ru and Bingle?

If STD targeted me, then if you failed to act, STD could see if it was because of me or not. And if STD dies, then it must mean that you are scum, because I am not multitasking.

This is a viable course of action if we go with the risk a 2 person scumteam wrecking us route. I'm vaguely okay with going that route, tbh.

If we want to play it safe, you block cyrus instead of Ru, Ru gets another invest in tonight (either you or STD) and even if scum has a kill and two members we have another dayphase. It adds time to the win, and honestly I don't think either of you or Dwlee is scum at this point, which one of the two of you would have to be for us to lose going the aggressive route.

[Bingle]

Ru would be slightly better off investigating Loft in the above case, I think.

[Bingle]

What are you hoping to achieve here, with Ru investigating some more players?

In order for the role interactions to have worked out the way they did scum has to have fakeclaimed. Did I not demonstrate that? I'm pretty sure I demonstrated that.

[Bingle]

To be clear, I'm absolutely OK with just limming cyrus and taking the L if this game was fucked from the start. I don't have the WIM to fight for optimal play here.

[Bingle]

What are you hoping to achieve here, with Ru investigating some more players?

In order for the role interactions to have worked out the way they did scum has to have fakeclaimed. Did I not demonstrate that? I'm pretty sure I demonstrated that.

Mqybe STD is our scum healer.

That'd be my second guess after cyrus, but you're the second most powerful role, which means you'd be a higher priority clear. It's not about winning fast if we take it the slow way, it's about making the marginally stronger decisions. And I think a theoretical scumteam of you/Dwlee wins more often than a theoretical scumteam of STD/anyone.

[Bingle]

do you seriously think Loftwing and I are teamed here

How is that a thought you can entertain rn

No, I think cyrus is the last scum and is openly flailing.

The whole point of the no lim idea is "What if I'm wrong as hell and this game is fucking insane?"

Note: the second safest option is eliminating me. That is because I am literally the only person in the thread who could theoretically have caused the mechanical issue without fakeclaiming. I could theoretically have not actually bloodhounded anyone, claimed to have bloodhounded enchant, and gotten enchant eliminated. This, of course, ignores all of the reasons I wouldn't do any of that, but it is a thing I could have done and so flipping me proves there is a scum player lying about their role.

Once we go into optimizations that fine, reads don't really have much to do with it.

(Also, I legitimately don't remember most of the early gameplay at this point, but you and loft having early antipartner-y vibes matches with me thinking you're both town now, so I don't really care about going back to read.)

[Bingle]

Okay you block me then, Loftwing blocks STD and bingle. Mama ru investigates Loftwing/Cyrus

Loft wing can block no one and std can check me . Ru can check loft . This will clear me. If a kill happens your still live. Std might catch it. Ru will know if loft is lieing bingel can check ru and clear her kinda. Rolecop could also be ww. But you would be clear and I would either dead or also cleared or std gets killed here. But you would at least be confirm town if a kill happens.

You realize that literally no one is reading your suggestions for night actions, right?

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

bingle, strangematter, mama ru, loftwing

so i tracked QO and got 4 results so i can verify he's a doubled bus driver

[Bingle]

Strange, bus driven to me. STD claimed the tracks before Ru claimed the result.

STD could be scum with owl who knew the targets or scum with Ru who knew that I was likely the joat in question, but that is circumstantial evidence pointing to STD actually being tracker.

[Bingle]

Loft similarly is basically always an rb unless you were Dunn’s killer or driven with Dunn’s killer.

[Bingle]

Well Dunn's killer wouldn't be able to get bus driven unless action resolution on the ascetic only works after the kill (so only investigations)

Asceticizer wouldn’t stop a bus driver driving a killing role to them via correct NAR application. If drive to asceticizer then there’s no conflict as the bus driver never targets an ascetic.

Asking who killed Dunn is probably a wild goose chase though, given owl flip. Too many questions with no answer.

[Bingle]

Okay but we should have had three kills unless someone who killed was blocked N1. Or two scum targeted the same person. But what scum was killing Dunnstral. Dude had 10 posts and basically no content

FWIW, this is true regardless. A scumkill stopped by a doc on me or owl would have made it so the enchant pgo succeeded: docs only stop 1 kill.

[Bingle]

If Dunn and enchant were swapped then Bingle wouldn't have gotten a not town result

And also owl would have died without a protection.

[Bingle]

So was owl protected and you investigated not enchant, or did owl not swap enchant

We don’t have a way of knowing, but in either case there needs to have been a doc on whoever targeted enchant.

[Bingle]

My result was:

J

a

c

k

o

f

A

l

l

T

r

a

d

e

s

• Bloodhound
  
• Doctor
  
• Roleblocker
  
• Cop-Finder

bingel who did you save and why?

I docced Ru N2 because she’d hardclaimed to be able to tell she was roleblocked on D2. I crumbed the ever living shit out of that so that if I flipped there’d be no confusion about whether I’d blocked someone.

[Bingle]

I'm currently trying to find ways that owl could target every one night one. And how bingel lived after targeting enchant. And who killed dun . And also how loft lived after being tracked to enchant.

Why? Night 1 is solved, my guy.

Owl Swapped Me and Bingle.
Bingle Visited Enchant.
Save The Dragons (and presumably a protective role) target me, and get redirected to Bingle.
Save The Dragons, who is now targeting Bingle, sees that Bingle visited Enchant. It is important to note that Save The Dragons originally targeted me, and so thinks that they are seeing me visit Enchant.
(A protective role presumably targeted me as well, and was redirected into Bingle, protecting bingle from dying.)

We don't know who kill Dunnstral, and we probably won't know until the end of the game.

^occams solution.

There are other explanations for N1, but they are more complicated and also don’t give us more useful information.

I’d actually forgotten STD getting a track result of Loft -> Enchant. That means in order for enchant to have been bus driven we’d need two people who were fakeclaiming not protective as protective or std/loft/owl/reg to have been a 4 person scum team. I don’t want to live in a world where we’re considering either of those.

My phone wanted me to type “I don’t want to live in a world where we’re considering Twitter.” For once, my phone knows how I feel.

[Bingle]

In any case, do we have any evidence that Cyrus is an even night Jailkeep?

No.

If there is a single scum remaining, that scum is not Ru* (proven rolecop) or Dwlee (proven jk).

I don't think it's possible for Loft to be last scum here, based on N1. Loft protective targets me -> Tracker shouldn't see Enchant. Loft protective targets Owl -> Owl can't self busdrive, tracker still shouldn't see Enchant.

If STD is the sole remaining scum here then he is a protective, which means he guessed/used scum knowledge to fake tracks on all of his targets. The confusion regarding the Loft track going to Enchant does not support this.

If I am sole remaining scum there is no protective and I fakeclaimed a guilty N1 based on not actually targeting a player with an ability I actually had and could have safely used, then kept a full cop claim going into night to make myself a much more attractive NK to otherscum than I would be as a JoaT.

If cyrus is the sole remaining scum, it literally solves all of the issues.

If there are two remaining scum, either paired or unpaired, no one is hard cleared, but there still needs to be scum in STD/Bingle/Cyrus.

*Technically, Ru could have fakeclaimed the 1/400 cop finder result, a believable "I was blocked" result, and Dwlee's role, but that's even more bonkers than STD being not-a-tracker.

[Bingle]

If a scum Doctor is Neutral, then we either have a Serial Killer on our hands, or a Jester.

Jester cannot be last scum, Jesters are endgamed by town.

[Bingle]

This is mech soup and I dont eat a lot of soup

Tell me what to do and I'll do it

There are three options:

Safe option: find protective by repeatedly no limming until Ru can check every player. Lim me then Ru if no protective is found.

Slightly less safe option: Lim me to confirm that there is a protective, then see above. This loses if there are two scum and they successfully NK through whatever action plan we have to let Loft and Dwlee stop kills.

Slightly less safe than the slightly less safe option: Lim cyrus.

We pick one of these options, and then you target whoever you're told to target. I'm fine with any of the options, still.

[Bingle]

Well, that would be in addition to whatever scum actually exists.

Yeah, there could theoretically be a Jester Doc in cyrus/STD, but considering I demonstrated the Jester win was trivial on D1 I don't know why they wouldn't have claimed by now.

[Bingle]

Well, no. STD said they targeted me, which in turn means they targeted you, which means tracker would see that you visited Enchant.

If you are the scum protective, then your action has to have ended up on me. You wouldn't have been able to self target, thus cannot have targeted me if the bus driver drove you and me, and thus a track on you wouldn't have gone to enchant. Thus if STD town Loftwing not sole remaining scum. Thus Loftwing not sole remaining scum.

[Bingle]

Dweelee Jailkeeps Cyrus (to prevent Cyrus from jailkeeping me in turn, and potentially allowing their potential scumbud from comitting murder.)

Theoretically, Dwlee and Cyrus should cross target, in case Dwlee is a second scum player, but yes.

[Bingle]

But what about my logic that says one of Bingle/loft/std is scum.

It's based on an assumption that scum wouldn't doc town, which isn't necessarily correct. It does seem reasonable, however, and that logic is why the option of eliminate Bingle is one that I keep bringing up.

[Bingle]

Well, yeah, but they're functionally the same at this point. Actually, babysitter would explain why they might target me over a partner.

[Bingle]

Shouldn't be. PGO is a passive action, action limits only apply to active actions. A BP SK is still BP while killing.

[Bingle]

This is mech soup and I dont eat a lot of soup

Tell me what to do and I'll do it

There are three options:

Safe option: find protective by repeatedly no limming until Ru can check every player. Lim me then Ru if no protective is found.

Slightly less safe option: Lim me to confirm that there is a protective, then see above. This loses if there are two scum and they successfully NK through whatever action plan we have to let Loft and Dwlee stop kills.

Slightly less safe than the slightly less safe option: Lim cyrus.

We pick one of these options, and then you target whoever you're told to target. I'm fine with any of the options, still.

But what about my logic that says one of Bingle/loft/std is scum.

It's based on an assumption that scum wouldn't doc town, which isn't necessarily correct. It does seem reasonable, however, and that logic is why the option of eliminate Bingle is one that I keep bringing up.

Either way I think we go with my plan for no lim and role cop to find the doctor

[Bingle]

The optimal outcome of tonight is that there is no kill, Cyrus.

The optimal outcome of tonight is two scum cross killing to end the game, actually.

[Bingle]

well if they no kill we can repeat role copping. And if they do kill, then you, me, and the two people loftwing block will be conftown

Kinda nitpicky, but it is an important distinction: those people will be confirmed to not be the scum who killed. They could still feasibly be scum with someone else.

Dwlee and Cyrus jk each other. Std tracks loftwing. Loftwing blocks me and std. Ru investigates Cyrus, I think.

I’ll act so that if loft doesn’t block one of me/std they get caught by the action happening. That prevents loftwing/Cyrus or loftwing/dwlee shenanigans.

Any objections?

[Bingle]

I prefer Cyrus to std because Cyrus has less reason for us to assume he’s telling the truth and I’d like to fast forward this, if possible.

[Bingle]

This is currently just a headcount. VC will be edited in shortly.

headcount

cyrus62 (2): Loftwing, cyrus62

With 6 alive it takes 4 to reach a majority.
With 7 dead the deadline is 6 days 12 hours, of which (expired on 2021-11-14 04:42:15) remain.

Mod confirmed loftwing is a Cyrus alt.