Mini Normal 2245: LJITGBSMoD [game over!]

[Val89]

Hi.

VOTE: marcistar.

[Val89]

Val will be along when he had a wall worth of insight, of course.

I'm a little disappointed you are the only one to comment on my open, though...

[Val89]

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

Gut.

[Val89]

Val is basicaly openwolfing at this point

Strong statement. Explain?

[Val89]

Feel dead on the inside? What a strange thing to say.

If that comes from a place of genuine concern, I can assure you I am feeling perfectly well.

[Val89]

val what do u think about the wagon on u..?

I think it makes a refreshing change from the "should we policy lim Not_Mafia?" discussion.

one-liners

it feels like scum you has a massive wim issue and can't find things to latch on to

That might be answer, but it's an answer to a different question. Others have pointed out that my opening to this game is obviously different to some previous games. That is fair. You accused me of "basically openwolfing" which is something quite different from "he has opened this game differently to the last game or two I've played with him", no?

I'll ask again, T3. Can you explain what scum agenda you think I am advancing here, and doing so in plain view?

[Val89]

Dodging the question. Got it.

I'm the one asking the questions, son.

[Val89]

That's E-2, in a game with Not_Mafia on the list. Just saying.

You all want me to play my Uno Reverse Card now?

[Val89]

I don't actually believe all those espousing the view that I am such a poor scum player I am incapable of playing mafia in the shock of opening a red role PM, and instead have no choice but to announce myself as scum, genuinely legitimately believe that.

I've giving redtea a little bit of a pass on this one, because although some examples have been posted in this thread, the context - that the wall of text comes very early, on the first page or two at a time where there is little to no actual justification to read anyone in any direction, is important. If you do read them in context you would notice that, despite being walls, the reads and the justification for them are absolute garbage, and you should regard anyone who has tried to represent my meta as delivering "insight" with suspicion.

They are such obvious bullshit that I usually choose to open the game in the manner I do for the actual game advancing discussion it usually generates when someone does, or pretends to, take it seriously and attack the merits and try to start a wagon on me as a result. Given this playlist, and the familiarity a good portion of the players here have with it, I figured the

absence

of such a wall (particularly if I opened with exactly a single word) would serve the same purpose; and I appear to have been proven right.

As it happens, redtea, I got the exact same 'vibes', though I called it 'gut', out of Norwee, and is the reason I am starting there.

[Val89]

So your idea of scum hunting is to intenionally play scummy as an strategy, and that is what you did here?

No. I disagree that I have played scummy.

As far as I am concerned, I have played to my meta - I've made a post that has generated discussion of the "Val is obvscum for that sort of bullshit; yeah, but would Val be stupid enough to post something like that as scum?" variety that you know originates from my opening 'walls'.

I've just chosen, given the playerlist, to do so in one word rather than a thousand. I think I spelt out my intent was to induce other slots to enter that exact discussion, when I said to marci what I said in my second post (136).

[Val89]

I'm gonna go with no lmao

Well, we can debate if how I open my games if in fact Slayers Gambiting, and I don't exactly think it is equivalent, the important thing to note is that I am not being scumread for having done that, I am being apparently scumread for NOT doing so, or alternatively, doing so in a different, but obviously equivalent, way.

I'll let you decide what that says about the quality of this particular wagon for yourself.

[Val89]

You literally haven’t.

I made a post calculated to prompt a "woah, what the fuck is that by Val? Wait, so you really think scum!Val would be that obvious?"

And what you know, that's what happened..

[Val89]

Is it ok for me to get slightly upset when i genuinely case someone

Except you havent. There were obvious, surface level differences between how U opened this game and how I opened my newbie queue games.

You are allowed, and I expected and intended, for slots to latch on to that briefly in RVS when there is little else to push, but you can't expect everyone to overlook you continuing that push by pretending you are an expert on my meta, even moreso than myself, and that it can boil down to, and be alignment indicitive on, something as banal as a simple word count, rather than looking at the intent.

[Val89]

"oh, Val usually posts walls of crap that result in him picking up a few early votes while people discuss the relative merits as to why he openly posts walls of crap.

Hmm... Val hasn't posted a wall of crap this time. In fact, he's done the exact opposite, then expressed disappointment only Marci has commented on it.

Why could he have not posted a wall of crap this time? Nah, don't think about that, just push him, and then if he does explain what should be obvious to anyone who's played with him, just call him crap scum and pretend the word count is all that matters."

[Val89]

I’m thinking it’s just an excuse he came up with afterwards.

Explain 136, then?

[Val89]

No, you don't get to just drop it. Explain 136.

Mine was a rediculously short ISO, that's the major part of why you say you are pushing me, so don't pretend like you missed it.

[Val89]

You didn’t just say: "i’ll post an wall later"
Because that’s all i read it as.

And the second line?

[Val89]

So, your defense is to act stupid?

Anyone else claim to not understand what marci being the only one to comment on my 'open' refers to?

In any case, even if I buy you didn't understand it, you want us to buy that:

In this case, what is there to read for intent?

He made 2 one-liners.

And you didn't understand half of one of them, so you just ignored it??

[Val89]

I'm trying to say that I don't buy you didn't know what the second line of 136 implied, but having realised it makes a complete mockery of your 355 , you now pretend that you didn't understand it, so ignored it.

And my further point is if that was true, pushing a slot for posting two one-liners while you say you didn't understand and thus ignored a good portion of that begs the question as to if this was ever a legitimate read on your part.

The fact that you've hoped off my wagon at the

slightest

shifting of the winds makes me think I ought to be continuing to put eyes on your slot and continue this push, and I can pick up other reads as we go.

[Val89]

How sure are you about that?

[Val89]

Well, in any case, Norwee could jump back on here, and Not_Mafia is a thing, so I better do my thing now.

[Val89]

@Datisi. I would like to activate that special power I have now, please.

Target: NorwegianboyEE

[Val89]

Oh, good. I suspected as much, but it never hurts to check.

Thanks, Datisi.

[Val89]

Well, there are a few extra words in my role pm, so don't judgee me too harshly just yet.

Have any of your other reads changed in light of the reveal of the last 3 of those words, Jolyne?

[Val89]

You can critise my play when you learn what the other words are. Jolyne is wrong about me having a dayvig, but honestly, I think if I did, I would have used it on you.

You know how a few posts ago Jolyne was saying they thought I was expressing frustration I couldn't mimic my town play?

I'm feeling this "waah, you are playing your role wrong" reeks of frustration you are going to have to go back to the drawing board as far as pushing a mislim goes.

[Val89]

So, why do you think Jolyne was acting as though they thought I had just dayvigged Norwee, Gamma?

Think they might have been trying to bait me into telling what I've actually done?

Pedit: I was addressing Norwee in my 419.

[Val89]

I'll be ignoring Val because he's clearly incompetent.

I won't take that personally, since I think I would be forced to take the same approach as scum!you.

Having spent the early part of the day pushing me for being absolute shit-tier scum, and you expect better from my town game, it only makes sense to try switch that narrative to me being shit tier as any alignment.

It's cool beans.

[Val89]

"Act scummy."

I said Hi.

[Val89]

You could expect some problems if you usually open with a wall as Town.

If you're in some noob games i guess.
Usually players thatwith it are town.

Usually. There are always exceptions.

Is this little interaction supposed to be relevant to this game?

An example of my usual wall was given by Marci at 183. Does any think that, or any of the other examples given, could ever reasonably qualify as a "genuine looking wall"?

If not, what's the deal here?

[Val89]

If I have anything to do with it, DArby, yes there is a serious push on Norwee.

Look at how he seemed at least considered what the deal is with me at 182. Then marci puts a vote on me and he's like "fuck it, I'm all in".

You should note I'm not currently directing my ire at Marci, or Gamma, who also proceeded to make a "where's the wall?" case against me. But the tonal shift with Norwee suddenly seemed to put all doubts aside and jump in with wild abaddon gave me, and apparently others, bad vibes.

I could have written it off as someone who just wants to go hard on a D1 scumping to see if it shakes out while there isn't much more to go on, but I had been pretty clear that I didn't have any real reason to say he was scummy apart from those gutvibes. His reaction to the absolute

slightest

pushback though doesn't read as town to me. Look at the mini-tantrum that plays out:

What is this wagon on me even?

So because i’m voting Val for playing way different from what i expect of their townplay i’m being treated as an hardball pushing too much?
Really?

Is it ok for me to get slightly upset when i genuinely case someone and they do an Among Us: "no u" lazy ass vote and people join that wagon on me?

...because he has picked up a

single

unexplained vote from toxic. Then, just as soon as another slot indicates they aren't quite convinced by what Norwee is selling (and it's pretty mild point, although a decent one):

Yea yea idk I don't have a read there I just see words

But you're saying you don't read for intent which doesn't make sense to me

He hops straight off my wagon. Remember, this is well before Datisi confirmed me as town. It all smells rather defensive.

Since that reveal, he's been heavy with the same "ohh, you stupid newbie, why should we listen to YOU" attitude I got in the newbie game we played, which first twigged me I might be dealing with a scum!Norwee, and I was ultimately proven right.

All that to me says Norwee has a better than random chance of flipping scum, and yes, this is 100% an actual push. I would like to see a Norwee flip here.

[Val89]

I'm not suggesting you do, Dwlee99.

I am noting that Norwee hopped off my wagon and sheeps you onto the T3 one very soon after you expressed the faintest "hol up" to what Norwee was saying - pushing back, albeit very slightly, at the 'not reading for intent' comment.

He seemed pretty darn sure about my alignment at that point, but thinks its a good move to jump from an E-2 wagon to one with a single vote on it.

The only way to get reads is to keep the very real threat of DEATH hanging over the heads of those that wish to mislead us.

PROVE ME WRONG.

It just makes that ^ ring rather hollow, to me.

[Val89]

As well as you, I've seen firsthand Marci as scum. Same goes for T3 and Gamma. I wasn't getting the same vibes from them as I did you, though, which is why I made my "Gut." call; and it was, at that point, just that.

Toxic didn't explain his vote at all, and it was, after all, 3 votes; when you can successfully driven my wagon up to 5 and E-2. Your reaction to that, and the other things I've pointed to solidified that read to something more than gut; and I don't think it has anything to do with how I perceive your town game to be.

[Val89]

Seeing self-satisfied town pushing town is quite the sad sight.

Look, I know I am probably not the audience for these sorts of things, but that's twice now, and you know I'm not about to go "Oh, you are town? Well, why didn't you say so before then!"

We shall see after your flip, whenever that comes, and if it proves you are on the right side of history; THEN you get a license to rag on me as much as you like, OK?

[Val89]

"invests could just go on him lol"

Well, I would suggest that Mafia all having "ascetic" means that night invests are a no-go.

I'll be honest, with the number of words in my role PM, I am wondering if I am the only town PR, or there is a larger number than usual of usual mafia slots to balance it. Don't expect a cop, or any other type of "target someone at night" invests in this setup, is the takeaway.

[Val89]

I am not sure myself; this is my first non-newbie queue game, but I read it at two seperate modifiers - Your interperation would imply the exisitence of town ascetics, and I'm not sure that tallys with what I know. I can tell you, in case there is some interaction with other town PRs and this makes something make sense to somebody, that I am conditionally bulletproof. I'm not going to specify the conditions, because I think that only helps scum, but I think its unlikey there will be regular, night targeting invests or protectives, because it doesn't make sense to make the mafia untargettable, or give me bulletproofing if there were cops or docs or the like knocking about.

I could be proven wrong. Maybe the intent is that there are invests or protectives in this setup, and targetting someone and being roleblocked is supposed to indicate a 'guilty' because of all the maf being untargetable. Alternatively, I might not have a clue what I am talking about here, and you are correct in there are town ascetics, and mafia are targetable until they kill one, and I'm thinking about this wrong.

Regardless, I don't think you can rely on invests to do the work on Norwee, or anyone else, this game.

[Val89]

can u restate ur norwegianboy stuff for me pls..?

I'm not sure I can make it more consise than I did in 507. I'll try to restate it, though.

You picked up the lack of wall post early. Norwee kinda starts to position themselves as townleader and starts talking about how they want to just get a flip (117), and how the best way to find scum is to get a wagon rolling (168). He then pillow pushes on AliceK for the barest of seconds before turning his attention to me. He shows some understanding of the alternative to scum!me (182), but votes and makes some more noise about 'executing bad guys' (189) and "pressure is good" (195.)

So far, so normal. Nothing wrong with any of this. DArby has some reservations, and Norwee even explicitly says he is pushing me for a response and DArby is interfering and easing that pressure (220, 243). I don't have any issue with how he has approached my slot here, but somehow the tone he has taken with DArby seems off - it reminds me of how he approached me as a bare newbie in Newbie 2068, and I know he tells us its how he treats newbies in general, but I think it has scum utility and I don't like it. It's not really anything of substance, but it's enough for me to start there, and honestly indicate it's simply a 'gut' vote.

That simple, under explained return vote, from a slot that apparently people are finding scummy, I don't think would normally be considered much of a threat. It could easily be disregarded as OMGUS, but it seems to trigger a huge tonal shift. Redtea picks it up and comments on it, but maintains his vote on me(320). I give an explanation for my play at 323, and in the meantime, Toxictaipan places an unexplained vote on Norwee.

I've pointed out recently that, at that point, my wagon was at E-2 and his was 3 votes. He commented "Are you going to cry about it?", which I can only assume is some sort of projection, because look how he reacted at that point:

Spoiler: Norwee's mini-tantrum.

What is this wagon on me even?

So because i’m voting Val for playing way different from what i expect of their townplay i’m being treated as an hardball pushing too much?
Really?

Is it ok for me to get slightly upset when i genuinely case someone and they do an Among Us: "no u" lazy ass vote and people join that wagon on me?

How many scum on my wagon?

He continues to push the case on me quite agressively, however, and he has dropped all pretense of understanding the alternative to a scum!me. This continues until another slot pipes in and says something Norwee has said "doesn't make sense to me" (353).

And thats enough to have him back off the wagon on me. Despite all the noise he made earlier, he drops off a wagon at E-2 to go be the second vote on another that might just have a chance to take off (T3), while continuing to shade me. That doesn't tally with what he was saying in his little 1v1 with DArby, or how he was talking while voting for Alice. He has does something he chastised DArby for doing, and has done so because his slot has received the barest of pushback.

That doesn't exactly scream "town" to me.

[Val89]

as i think someone pointed out toxictipan was possibly tmiing that val was town.

For what it is worth, that person was Norwee; and I think the charge is pretty rediculous.

toxictaipan

im interested in ur input on this val stuff, do u mind giving some thoughts about that and anything else u may have thought of..?

The past 13 pages are exhausting. If I were Val and scum in this situation, I'd be giving some better replies, though. Town is looking for an excuse to lim him and the chip on the shoulder attitude might just be it. I think scum Val would realize this and not be so standoffish.

I think the interactions between DArby and NorwegianboyEE are much more interesting, but can't quite pin a read either way on the two yet.

Wondering if this is TMI.

I say it is silly, because it is simply expressing vaild reservations that other slots have about if a scum!Me would be so dumb (eg: DArby in 214) and is something Norwee claimed to have considered himself.

I understand the "why would scum!Val play like this" angle, i really do. But i think it's an faulty argument because it is just as likely that Val could choose to continue to play like this as scum as he would as town. It would be quite jarring if he suddenly started posting a lot of huge posts in response to the pressure. I think he just knows he has to keep going this way, and i don't see the town motivation in what he is doing. So therefore i'm keeping my vote on Val at least until i understand it.

[Val89]

Meanwhile scummy slots have TMI’d him town and forced this perspective of: "scum in one of Norwee/Val" to get town onto the wrong path,

I know you have aledged toxic TMId me, but which slots are you referring to as having forced a SvT perspective?

[Val89]

Btw the fact no one is hopping on alice is like even better proof that slot is going to flip scum pls come join kthx

That may well be because you've given no justification as to why we should be hopping on Alice.

I'm willing to consider it if you have something, but I'm not going to take it on trust in a game when any other slot could have a hidden agenda.

[Val89]

Meanwhile scummy slots have TMI’d him town and forced this perspective of: "scum in one of Norwee/Val" to get town onto the wrong path,

I know you have aledged toxic TMId me, but which slots are you referring to as having forced a SvT perspective?

Any chance of an answer to this one, Norwee?

I'm willing to consider I'm looking in the wrong direction, and I don't buy the TMI thing, but maybe there is something in this forced perspective issue. Help me out, would you?

[Val89]

With all due respect Gamma, a slot displaying that sort of indignant defensiveness as town in a ELO situation, when the game depends on it, is a little different from doing so D1 after picking up 3 votes.

[Val89]

Pardon?

[Val89]

My pardon was actually me wondering what the hell "fia wrc" was, then I figured it must have been the initials of the name of some game or other and I got bored of looking.

[Val89]

Cheers, but I think its moot now. I was looking for it before because my intent was to go and and check the math and make sure T3 isn't just making this up as he goes. Then I had two realisations.

1) What the fuck has my life come to? and
2) Even if it transpired T3 was talking out of his backside, it's T3, and that's likley NAI anyway.

It comes to something when I can live with N_M no issues, but I'm giving serious considerations to recommending a policy lim on T3.

[Val89]

Honestly T3 bothers me less than NM in most regards I’d say

I know. I surprise myself sometimes.

[Val89]

Is there anything more to it than those being the slots that Alice has shaded/voted at one time or another, excluding Norwee and including yourself?

[Val89]

Putting aside the associatives, what made you think Alice is likley to flip red in the first place, and is a better place to start that Norwee?

[Val89]

val or t3 will you join me and let not_mafia hammer

You want to hammer a slot before a claim, or before they've had chance to catch up and respond to the wagon - a wagon that appears to have formed because a slot I consider scummy claims the wagonee TMI'd me as town based on a comment that basically expresses with something they themselves had considered (541).

No. Absolutely not. Marci is right; something stinks here.

Anyone else thinking that mafia want this day to end as soon as possible, because of some spicy night mechanics around that "backup acestic" thing?

[Val89]

@Jolyne

I could work with you here, but why are you suggesting we start with AliceK over Norwee?

[Val89]

I got what I wanted out of my vote and now I want to move on to see what I can get out of my next vote.

@DArby

In case you aren't aware; it's sort of Not_mafia's shtick to hammer any wagon that reaches E-1 (which is why readtea phases his 768 as he does).

As such, you ought to have a higher bar about throwing your votes around if you are doing so to lend pressure to a slot you aren't sure about; given that that vote could lead to that wagon quickly becoming a lim without much further discussion.

If that was your intent, and you do think toxic should be the lim today, fine, but if this toxic lim does happen here, I don't want whether or not you were aware of this to be a factor in sorting your slot tomorrow, so now you know.

[Val89]

(which is why readtea phases thier 768 as they do)*

Sorry.

[Val89]

You think Toxic could be the lurker of the scum team, but also that Norwee is on it?

[Val89]

I'm just trying to clarify what it is you are saying.

You said you wanted a toxic lim because of you thought "it's possible toxic could be the lurker of the scum team" and some unspecified interesting stuff in the vote count, which I am not asking you to explain, but are now you appear to be saying you've changed your mind if you think a Norwee lim is actually viable.

Presumably you would only want a Norwee lim if you think they are scum, so I am just trying to lock down your actual position.

[Val89]

And are you prepared to share any of what pinged you about Alice to lead to that confidence, or are we still to take it on blind trust?

[Val89]

Well, my point is he is sat at E-2 now, and the lim could come in the next 10 minutes.

I also have some concerns floating about it the back of my head that, even in the event of a toxic red flip, he may well end up just being the sacrificial goon to a) hurry this day to a close so mafia can get to the good stuff I'm speculating might be in this setup, and B) help sell a townblock that might not prove as pure as we might like.

[Val89]

You know something I don't, Dwlee?

[Val89]

I'm speculating, but even a conditionally bulletproof IC seems a pretty powerful role to be handed out if Mafia havent been given some way to deduce or work around those conditions. I speculated that I had been given it to make up for a lack of town protectives, but I could be wrong on that score.

[Val89]

In addition,

I've since clarified. I was wrong, and Marci's interpretation of "backup ascetic" in post 529 was actually correct. Mafia are targetable at night only until an ascetic dies.

In light of that, that also seems to open the door to the existence of investigatives I had thought didnt make sense, but ones that are neutered as soon as the right person is killed. It makes complete sense for mafia to have an extra incentive to start making NKs as quickly as possible in this game while giving our invests as little to work with in the early days, if at some point in the future our theoricial invests get switched off.

[Val89]

Did you read what I said in 831, Norwee?

Invests, or indeed any PR with a night-targetable ability get switched off when an ascetic dies. Scum get more powerful when an ascetic dies. This looks like a game of "hunt the ascetic" for scum.

They might not need to hunt for them in the day; they could have powers that let them find them at night.

You don't understand why scum might be chomping at the bit to start pew pew-ing and hope they hit the mark, while giving said time-limited invests as little to go on as possible?

[Val89]

To follow up, I certainly wouldn't read the phrasing as AI when toxic specifically told us they were posting from their phone. You can probably note a difference in my own post style when posting from my mobile, because it's a comparative ballache.

[Val89]

Have you caught up, N_M, or are you just responding to the prod without realising the context in which you are doing so?

[Val89]

I'm kicking myself that I spent 30 odd pages labouring under a misunderstanding as to what 'backup ascetic' meant, and thinking it didn't make sense for there to be town ascetics - but now that I do, the scum strategy here is simple, and it puts in to focus why some slots have been trying to drive into a night phase as quickly as possible.

I know you are going to tell us it's an unfortunate coincidence, that you had no idea you were advocating to a course of action that leads to a scum advantage, and a significant one, and you have just been a useful idiot, but I think Occams Razor applies.

[Val89]

You very well know how N_M plays, why are you even questioning it lol

Well, the context is fairly significant here, no?

We literally just establish that scum need to move this game into a night phase as quickly as possible in order to capitalise on the little setup information we had been given, and was staring us in the face this entire time, and the next thing N_M says is "this day phase should be over", I want to know if that was a conscious decision, or if he's just saying what he always does.

[Val89]

I was about to say to DArby that town ascetics can't very well claim, because it's probable they can't be protected once they do, and then Jolyne goes and does just that.

I'm not sure what to make of that, to be honest....

[Val89]

Also do you interpret "backup" as scum vanilla/a different PR and then become ascetics or rather they have it passively?

I interept it exactly as I posted it. Mafia are targetable at night only until an ascetic dies.

You are a smart guy, you can figure out how I managed to clarify it, and why as I a result I have to be careful what I say without breaking the rules.

You can probably also figure out why Dwlee's posts at 814 and 818 made me decide finding out if Marci had been correct all along was pretty important at that point.

[Val89]

Your "When has mafia ever gained anything out of a night phase except for maybe PR info" made me wonder if Marci had been right, and if "ascetic" was what else they gained from making the right NK.

Turns out, she was.

[Val89]

I actually have no idea what you are doing Jolyne, but you aren't burying anything you think needs burying by continuing to draw attention to it.

I'm sure you are smart enough to know that as well.

[Val89]

I know in normal circumstances asking for reads on a slot serves dual purpose, one of which is to assist in sorting my own slot.

That doesn't apply here, so I am minded not to give to my reads in order to deny scum information and maximise their bussing potential.

I wan't Norwee flipped today. We can discuss how I feel about Dwlee tomorrow.

[Val89]

I mean yeah that's how backup works, but scum don't benefit from having ascetic during the day so why would it matter how fast day ends. You're moon logicing

Day length won't matter any more than normal once it's activiated, but it sure does before.

If the ability for any hypothetical invests, or a jailkeep, or anything like that we have to target scum at night can be switched off once scum hit the right person or persons, the advantage scum get from keeping the discussion on D1 or D2 or however long to a minimum, and thus informing those PRs whom to target, is magnified 100-fold.

Anyone else here not understand? If so, I can try and explain further.

[Val89]

I want to do the LN thing again

Anyone explain what the LN thing is?

[Val89]

What about that game where you refering to?

Was that the same here, also?

Norwee we need to channel all of that large normal here. Give me your poe

[Val89]

Or...and hear me out, here....you could dispense with the AtE and just explain why Toxic is 'objectively' a better elimination now?

[Val89]

Appeal to emotion.

[Val89]

I agree, but I think posting things like "I’m gone.", which reads very much like the text equivilent of storming out and slaming the door, almost certainly qualifies.

I get the feel that Norwee has been trying to exploit pre-exisiting relationships, as have others, and I'm not going to critise or draw conclusions on that alone. The clique-building alongside the insulting and disparageing the play of the 'newbies', while he claims that is his playstyle, has clear scum utility however. Even so, while I don't think I was the audiance for that post, I had a bit of a 'woah' moment to it.

There was, however, no reason why, if its a town!Norwee and a Toxic lim is 'objectively' better, why stating those reasons in lieu of that post would not have been the better option. I think we

are

dealing with a scum!Norwee, I think a flip there is our best play for today, and while I am likley to treat anything presented with a healthy dose of skeptism, I'm not about to discount anything out of hand either. I'm not going to play against my wincon, and if Norwee can establish that a Toxic lim is objectively better, that's where I'll go.

And I am by no means the only player in this game...

[Val89]

T3, when you were looking at this tell, why did you pick the cutoff at 50 posts?

Has how you feel about marci or Norwee changed any?

[Val89]

That's what makes him 'objectively' the 'only good' lim? He sounds scummy to you?

You know what objectively means, right?

I'm at a loss as to why you think the case against you is "easily fake-able garbage", without the self-awareness that "scummy tone in his posts" is probably the easist, most subjective, 'fake-able' case going.

Any actual meat to hang on those weasel words?

[Val89]

Just lim me, have Val eat crow. Then kill Toxic.
Fine enough plan.

This works for me.

[Val89]

Do you have a case for scum!toxic, Dwlee?

Maybe we can make progress this way.

[Val89]

Constantly robotic, or that one post they said they were making in a rush on their phone?

[Val89]

Would you also mind elaborating on that poe? I might have missed something, but currently I only see 4 slots mentioned in your ISO.

[Val89]

I think I might be misunderstanding what you mean by robotic.

Am I to imply from your answer that your response is yes, we are talking about the post they said they were on their phone, but you don't agree that being on the phone was the cause of whatever you mean by 'robotic language'?

[Val89]

What makes it robotic, to you?

I took it to mean 'stilted', but perhaps Im just not on the same page as to what you are trying to convey by that phrase.

[Val89]

How so wrt that being “the only good elim”?

Because of the scummy tone in his posts.
I’m not convinced by any of the defense’s made from other players, or follow-up posts from Toxic since then.
Guy is just mafia.

Another thing that just occurred to me - do we know how many mafia we are dealing with?

Is there a set number that is usual with mini normals?

[Val89]

Quote unrelated. Not sure how that got there.

[Val89]

Is that never 4 a rule that comes with normals, or is it just outside your experience to have more than 3?

[Val89]

At what point do we make the argument for policy?

I did consider pointing out earlier the difference in the quality of the debate that arose from interactions with Norwee, and those with Dwlee, and note that even if we end up disagreeing, being able to thrash those issues out only serves to help those on the outside looking in at least have a better understanding of each others respective position, and thus help town more likely correctly sort a sort.

That stands in stark contrast to this 'X is scum because I say so. You dare doubt me? Well you are just fucking trash then." which only serves to draw lines and close minds, and isn't helping town even if Norwee does eventually prove to be town; but honestly, that argument just detracts from the very real fact I am quite sure he

is

flipping red. Standing by to eat crow.

[Val89]

I should also note, and this does follow from Dwlee's 1033, that Jolyne is playing a similar "X is town, trust me. Y is scum. Why aren't you voting with me?? Don't you know I get RESULTS!" game which also seems to be predicated on the fact that the playerlist has been told that slot is an alt of an established and experianced player.

Perhaps this "I think X is scum. You should vote with me because you like me and we have history." type gameplay is par for the course in these non-newbie queues, but the fact of the matter is not all of us do have that pre-exisiting history, and while I'm trying to give Jolyne benefit of the doubt, the only bar I have to measure thier judgement against in

this game

is the only time they did seem to give some justification or reason behind a read, which was when they voted me and gave examples of posts they said was typical of scum expressing a certain type of frustration, which of course was very quickly proven to be rubbish. It's very difficult to consider sheeping a unexplained read without assesing the quality of the reasons for that read.

In conclusion, Koba, please stop whining when you are asked for a very basic town case on Marci.

[Val89]

Maybe so, but then it should be even easier to give a short, uncontroversial case on that read.

Or, do you mean obvious in the sense of "I just intuit really strongly that this person is town, but I can't really articulate why"?

If that's the case, there isn't any problem with saying so - at least then we know what we are working with.

[Val89]

No. For the record, I have no idea what it is you are supposed to have noticed. Perhaps you can elighten me in post-game, because I'm not Convinced now is the time.

The issue I have is that the only thing I have to judge the claim that you are 'good' is the reason you gave for scumreading me, and, this might be the only scenario when this can be said pre-flip, that proved to be definite Crap. I have no way of knowing if the reasons behind your Alice read, or any other, are any less crap. I'm not saying your repuation is undeserved, far from it, but merely that I have no way of checking it for myself.

As it happened, there were some things that pinged me about Alice, but a) they came AFTER you told us we should be voting there, so they can't be same, and b) I still think we are better off starting with a Norwee lim.

[Val89]

Do you think, given Norwee is in your PoE, we could reach an agreement on a lim there today or no?

Deserved or not, you do appear to at least hold some sway over other slots here.

[Val89]

because if toxic flips scum that clears norwee.

I'm not

entirely

convinced that it does.

I think I would probably prefer Alice over T3, though. Anyone TRing Alice right now?

[Val89]

That said, T3s jump from "Val isn't playing how I expect him too, at least on the surface" to "Val is openwolfing" and then back again when challenged did set my spidys tingling. I'm not sure I'm ready to build an entire scumcase out of what could have been sloppy language.

[Val89]

I could probably try to post a marci towncase in Jo’s place if people are interested

Could you possibely do an Alice one instead? Please and thank you.

Is there anything behind that "genuinely interested in the betterment of our society", or was that a gut thing?

[Val89]

Basically I feel like she’s actively trying to make sure town has good position in the game vs. scum

Sorry, I figured out what the analogy was supposed to mean; what I meant was, did you have any specific examples of things she has said or done that gave you the impression she was trying to put town in a good spot, or is that just a vibe read as to her intent?

[Val89]

Basically I feel like she’s actively trying to make sure town has good position in the game vs. scum

mindmelding with gamma this game

VOTE: AliceK it'd be rad if we could do this

Apparently not on this issue, however.

[Val89]

@DArby; what do you think of Alice thus far?

[Val89]

becuz i find it weird how the second they vote u u decide to change ur mind on toxic, not earlier.

Is this the only thing that's pinged you about Alice, or is there other things and that's just what tipped you over to vote?

Gamma has promised us a towncase; I've seen a few little things that ping me, but I do worry that Joylne has just posioned the challaice, and I might just be seeing things because I'm expecting to see them. As I said before, I can't really evaulate if there was anything to Jolynes read here at the time it was given if they don't want to explain it, and it's always possible they just pulled it out of nowhere. I don't really want to outline a case myself, because it's all too easy for people to take it, given I'm confirmed town, and go "yeah, that's exactly what I am seeing".

[Val89]

Okay but a red!toxic flip gives us something !

I think I've made a mistake here. If we are talking about red!Toxic clearing Norwee, I've been sat here stewing on a reason why I thought that wasn't the case, but when I've come to explain it in response to this, I realise I have credited toxic in my mind with saying something early while I was still the push; and it turns out it didn't actually come from toxic.

So, yeah, I messed up that one up. I'm going to go back and check the rest of my work and make sure I've not falsely attributed anything else.

At the end of the day, though, I still feel like a toxic flip is much more likley to flash green, and so even if there was something to learn from a red!toxic flip, it's fairly academic in nature. I am now coming round to why people think that assocative is there, though, particulary if we are probably dealing with 2 or 3 scum.

[Val89]

Next vote on toxic will be N_M-1, right?

[Val89]

I'm warming up to idea, I can't lie.

[Val89]

VOTE: T3

I would be happy here, too, to be honest.

I want to be clear, though, that I haven't changed my mind on Norwee. I am a pragmatist however, and recognise a fair bit of D1 bandwidth has been sucked up exploring that issue, and we are better off leaving it now and coming back to it.

If we don't get the results we want out of moving onto to T3 or settling on Toxic, however, and I think that will be cause to reexamine all the assumptions we have been making about who deserves to be in that townblock.

[Val89]

I'm sure there is enough votes, including my own, to make that happen at Eod. We still have a bit of time.

Are you townreading T3, redtea?

[Val89]

It's probable there will be deadline extension if so, unless that's a newbie queue or mod-specific thing?

Always has been in the games I've played in, anyhow.

Regardless, our choice here is to go ahead and lim a slot which has been low content the whole time, and do so without a claim; trusting Norwee (and you know how I feel about that slot) that they can legimately divine when it is and when it isn't town indicative.

If we decide not to risk yeeting the slot, then we can twiddle our thumbs until toxic or whomever inherits this slot graces us with their presence - or we can use to time to look elsewhere and see if a better lim presents itself, returning to it at deadline if necessary.

I would suggest we look at T3 a bit further. Anyone with me?

[Val89]

You want us to just go ahead and lim the slot without a claim, when the last time we know for sure they were around, they were E-3?

[Val89]

Alright. No objection here.

Still think he's flipping town, but it's going to be an interesting one either way.

[Val89]

How are you expecting toxic to flip, Darby?

[Val89]

His reaction to what, T3?

Where do you think we should be looking next on a town!toxic flip?

[Val89]

I wouldn't worry about N_M being around or not, in any case.

I'll be around to drop the hammer myself later, if such is called for.

[Val89]

I was wrong about Norwee's alignment.