Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia (Game Over)

[Venus Fly Trap]

Heya all!

Really excited for this one

Kinda busy irl today, but will be around tomorrow!

VOTE: towlie hiya bork and notsci!!!

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i would never!

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

hype hype hypeeeee

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

vla for a couple of days, i'm sick

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

sorry yall I’m in the middle of what feels like a horrendous migraine, I’ll try to check in after work today if I’m not in a ton of pain. we are sad venus fly trap

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

still in pain and skitter’s still sick, but I’m gonna try to be around today and read as much as I can. thanks for bearing with me

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

heya
sorry for my/our absence

i think the best thing to do here is explain what my reads are and then go from there
(i've not discussed these with lilith, she's still not feeling awesome):

Gamma Emerald - probably wasn't the best thing to cc there but the motivation + frustration + thought process behind it was townie

Towelie - don't know yet. i think bork is easier for me to read of the 2 of them but he's feeling more ~muted~ than i saw the last couple of times i've played with him. like town-him was p obvious in perpetual elo, and once i knew what scum-him looked like was also very easy to pick out in tenet. i'm not seeing that here yet. nothing in particularly scummy, but nothing that i can really point to that makes me think town either.

MUSHSHAGANA - townish. kinda feels like she's focusing on tangents that are slightly different than what everyone else is focusing on (i.e. the timing of her critter push, and the sm push, for example), but she's sorting things / following up on things that are important to her in the moment. can kinda tell from how she writes that there's a lot of thought going on behind the scenes

E. M. M. I. - scum. dislike its original dunn vote, and it's later discussion around the original wagon feels hollow. i think it's last post 420 should have been an unvote, but wasn't. feels like it doesn't know how to engage with the game

Milk & Mocha - the whole trolling thing is kinda disappointing and annoying. i want them to really play and not just be doing whatever they're doing. i can't tell who's posting when which is also really annoying and making it a lot harder to read them. was kinda half-following along last night and thought the whole thing was a trolly joke, gamma scumread kinda made sense in that context. or didn't really make sense exactly but kinda fit whatever they were doing. but at this point gamma's reaction is p clearly town so i kinda hate that they're doubling down on that read + the claim. dunno not seeing a lot to like here tbh

Venus Fly Trap - (will be) a shining beacon of towniness

Dunnstral - town. this isn't scum-dunn. he's engaged + trying to move the game along + there's a depth of nuance here that i think is uncharacteristic of scum-him + he has actual reads and is trying to develop them

Wisdom - getting townvibes. like his ssbm push.

Lady Lambdadelta - obvscum (i jest before people yell at me)

Something_Smart - underwhelming, not sure i have much to say here. if he keeps being underwhelming that's +scum for him

Critter - town. looks like he's really trying to understand the game + other people's mindsets. idk if his thought process always makes sense to me, but it amkes sense to him, which is what matters. like in some posts we get a little window into his thought process and how he's approaching the game and how he feels about it and i think it's real and townie (ex: 123 133 138, etc)

StrangeMatter - kinda scummy, and like focusing on the wrong things when they're here almost. or like the things that they're popping in to say are sort of ineffectual and aren't really motivated by trying to sort people or find scum.

Toogeloo/ssbm - conflicted: dunno if scum-toog picks that fight with ic-lld there + had some glimmerings of townpings on him prior to that. i don't tlike the ssbm iteration as much

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

i've got dnd momentarily but i'll be around some more this afternoon

gonna start by voting here:
VOTE: mm/bears

the other person i'd want to vote is emmi

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

well, what ought i be townreading exactly?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Why do scum MM even do this whole thing

i don't know, but i also don't know why town-mm do this whole thing, and i don't believe their scumread on gamma is real.
i don't know how they can in good faith come to the conclusion that gamma's reaction is scum gambitting in response here when he p obviously thinks he found scum in a cc

Gamma is never widely townread like this unless he's scum and that was just a failed scum gambit. I disagree with pooky that he did it to get town cop killed. I think he did it to look like wrong town which people take pity on.

like none of this makes sense, it's looking for reasons to call gamma scummy

like my issue isn't inherently the claim, which is almost for sure made up, my issue is how they're treating gamma now, the next day, when they're no longer embroiled in the 1v1.
(well i suppose i do take issue with the claim too, whatever their alignment it's kinda disappointing that they're playing like this)

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

I've noticed what you're saying about Dunn, but the early game from him stumbled HARD and I'm unwilling to give it a complete pass. I'm curious what you see there that overshadows, or maybe even explains(?) the early garbage play.

i dont' really think he stumbled in early game, and i think that this doesn't look like scum-him
he's posting, playing, there's an underlying thought process that is driving his posts, and i feel like you can see him trying to sort people and understand people's motivations
i don't think scum-him really exhibits that

[Venus Fly Trap]

i don't think pooky is like that at all
i also thought it was noraa posting this morning

[Venus Fly Trap]

Wisdom, it's not a scumread. You literally cannot know that for certain on Day 1 unless your role PM is red. This is a logical necessity. The only way you can derive that information is if you know the alignments of all players involved.

The only way you know the alignments of all players involved is if you are scum, since there are two factions and you know all the scum.

QED, if you state that with certainty those two are TvT, you are scum.

Do you state with certainty that those two are TvT? Make a stance, don't deflect or use weasel words. Yes or no.

fwiw i think you're conflating 'being very confident in my reads' with 'i know (due to my role pm) that 2 people are tvt'
(and i think it's a given that wisdom meant it in the former and not the latter)

[Venus Fly Trap]

VOTE: EMMI
I wanna try this for a bit.

i think you should have stayed on bears but this is a decent alternative

[Venus Fly Trap]

Skitter i have stuff to say to you but it probably has to wait till i have a comp again. So much of your stance on m&m seemed like it shouldnt have contributed to a scumread and i dont like that you ended up voting there after the blurb you had

ok sure, let's talk abt it more when ur on a computer

[Venus Fly Trap]

I made it very clear that I was referring to the latter, while making room for him to claim the former. That he didn't is concerning, in my eyes. I made it abundantly clear what my meaning was and even hinted to the correct answer, but here we are.

no offense but i think ur reading too much into it

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

I made it very clear that I was referring to the latter, while making room for him to claim the former. That he didn't is concerning, in my eyes. I made it abundantly clear what my meaning was and even hinted to the correct answer, but here we are.

no offense but i think ur reading too much into it

~ skitteR

especially since i don't think scum-wisdom says to all of us 'i know it's tvt because of my red role pm'

[Venus Fly Trap]

id rather lim skilled scum

Yet you want to vote me?

i don't like this

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

@skitter- what did you think of Dunn coming off of LLDs reveal

I felt very underwhelmed with it despite not having an issue with the earlier posting from him last

-notty

heya notsci

i thought it was fine, and kinda feel like the bolded below doesn't come from scum

Was still catching up.

LLD I wasn't wrong to vote you, you were making things up about your role and aggressively pushing on me which made the game about you vs me.

UNVOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

what don't you like abt it?

[Venus Fly Trap]

Bears v Gamma

Gonna call nope on this. But I will look at the other two.

interested in seeing this tom

[Venus Fly Trap]

Lady Lambdadelta - obvscum (i jest before people yell at me)

well that's a little hypocritical of you....

the whole trolling thing is kinda disappointing and annoying.

Wind back a couple seconds and we have this here ://

>.>

[Venus Fly Trap]

meh. ok why. lets pretend we haven't claimed cop. why are we scum. you agree gamma's cc was bad. why is it weird for me to find it scummy when the cc is directed at me and extremely unreasonable?

again, i said this earlier, it's not inherently your cop claim, but how you're still pushing gamma afterwards

also i said that gamma's cc was bad. i meant bad as in 'he should not have cc'd there'. i did not mean bad as in 'scummy'. and i feel like that should have been p obvious since i called gamma scum more than once, so i don't really get this line of questioning

[Venus Fly Trap]

Pooky was clearly trying to eat a nightkill with that claim trying to give LLD another day.

can people stop calling me pooky wtf

fwiw i actually cean't tell who's posting when

[Venus Fly Trap]

i called gamma scum more than once

What does this mean
Don’t recall you calling me scum in

this

game, is this about past games?

sorry, i meant to say i called you town more than once, not sure why i wrote that

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

The cc was bad. I literally have no reason not to push it and to not think gamma has been consistently role fishing for my role.

you're either absurdly tunneled in a fit of capricious pique or just scum
and i think it's the latter because i don't think either of you really believe that's what he was doing there

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

also didn't you 'claim' before him? how was he rolefishing?

also you're claiming jester in a quasi-normal game that's stated to be 10:3 so idk how you can seriously believe he's 'rolefishing' a role that you don't have

[Venus Fly Trap]

right, that's my point. i don't believe there's a world where they truly believe gamma was rolefishing

i'm kinda shocked that everyone is townreading this

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

I think Toog's behavior is NAI, but ssbm echoed a lot of my thoughts on the dunnstral/LLD situation in 450 so I'm (very) lightly townreading that slot overall

honestly feeling a bit overwhelmed right now, but I did have some things I wanted to talk about if I can find them again

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

@MUSH, can you talk to me about your read on SS?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

ssbm echoed a lot of my thoughts on the dunnstral/LLD situation in 450 so I'm (very) lightly townreading that slot overall

Id agree with you if she tried to convince LLD Dunn is town. But while she tells her that her points are wrong she then proceeds to scumread Dunn for other points. So the motivation is not to dissipate the tvt

there is nuance in that post that I do think is lightly town-indicative, she ends by saying that dunn's contradictory stance on his flavor claim vs. toog's is more suspicious than his initial flavor claim which I agree with, but by then multiple people had expressed that point so it's not really a new and original thought. (I think bork said it first.)

so fair point, I actually went back and found one of the posts that I didn't like/that stuck out to me and it was a ssbm post, so I don't think 450 by itself merits a townread anymore

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

Waiting on reads Kyo tick tock tick tock

You scum, mush town, gamma town, nora possibly scumclaimed but nobody else notices these things. Wisdom obstinate, need to review him and toog in iso real quick, as his vote sticking in place feels wrong. However it's not likely you and wisdom are both scum so wrong on at least one of those

Dunnstral idk, I've had vibes he was scum at times but he doesnt feel like he did in isekai and I tracked him to the kill completely by accident there, had no idea he may be scum. I was setting up to Watch him later and he happened to be killing that Night

SM feels like limbait so town. Flytrap is POE scum. Gonna check playerlist for the resr as others in game are escaping me.

last two paragraphs in particular:
- coming off of 450 which seems like she has a scumread on dunn, now she's on the fence about him and seems like she's giving excuses to townread him which I don't get
- what about SM feels like limbait and why does that make him town?
- if you're POEing us as scum, that should mean you have a townread on most if not all of the remaining players, otherwise how are you POEing down to our slot. but she doesn't have a townread on the other players because she doesn't remember who they are and has to check the playerlist. so that feels like a really "easy" read to make. and why not the same stance on EMMI? is she townreading EMMI at that point that would differentiate her view on EMMI vs our slot? but no, she doesn't have any read on EMMI. that makes me think the whole readslist is made up on the fly.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

If the IC says stupid stuff like "Dunn is scum because he claimed his flavor" it gives scum space to attack them and fight them

That's precisely what I would do as scum

What's the motivation? Discredit a conftown, gain cred for actively posting stances, gain more cred for posting stances different than a conftown's

i mean i understand this but:
- not all scum i think would/can push the ic this way, and don't think scum-toog would pick that fight there
- kyo wasn't here while the lld/dunn thing was happening, and i don't think she got any sort of cred for that vote at all. i don't think you can read much into it at all

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

Looking at S_S’s ISO, he kinda pings town in a few spots for now

kinda wnat to hear more abt this

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

Got a little time over lunch today so I'll start w/ talking to skitter about stuff and see where it takes me. I haven't really read in depth since ssbm entered.

just gonna pick out the stuff i want to respond to:

I honestly feel like this is almost exactly like my tenet D1; mostly observation mode but picking up things where I could and generally starting to form reads around it without really being in 'attack mode' per se, but I don't really feel like harping on your take, perpetual ELO this isn't, for sure, but I also felt like there was a lot of meat there early game whereas here sans Dunn there really wasn't.

honestly i don't remember early-tenet-you, was kinda busy having a mess of a 1v1 with your other half for most of that >.>.
eventually the lightbulb kinda ~turned on~ by comparing what you were doing there with scum-you in the normal and that's when i was convinced u were town
ig here tho i'm kinda at a ~wait and see~ with your slot rn, i'm not dazzled like elo but there's nothing i don't like either. like you're just kinda flat and here and yeah idk how to make a read off of that rn

re: Mush. Obviously there's thought there, yes, but ultimately I'm having trouble I guess seeing MUSH push on things that seem like they matter as far as alignment is concerned vs like weird gotchas that don't ultimately mean anything. Like this most recent wisdom push I loathe because nobody goes, internally, "Well as a town player my role PM doesn't say X players are town with me, so therefore I should not be at all hyperbolic about the certainty of my reads" and therefore wisdom is scum.

yeah i agree that the weird gotchas don't actually mean anything but i also don't think they come from scum, or that scum thinks they'll actually go far / get anywhere by pushing someone that way
and well there's another thought here that i'm nto sure i actually want to say it but that's also affecting how i'm reading things

Even so, what is their objective here as scum other than pushing a read you don't agree with?

again, idk what their motivation is as scum, but i also think their play doesn't make sense as town and i don't think it makes sense ot double-down on gamma when they did.
and i think it's a little reductive to say that i think they're scummy for pushing a read i don't agree with. it's more that they're pushing a read that i don't think makes sense for town-them to have, the fact that i don't agree with it isn't so important tbh

also r.e. tenet-noraa i at least could understand how/why she was getting frustrated there, idk why town-her gets so annoyed with gamma here. like i just don't get how that whole sequence comes from town here

S_S: I am worried about being wrong on "being underwhelming" being a scumtell for S_S - you saw this firsthand in tenet, and I basically had the same (wrong) take there based on a prior encounter in illicit. I don't really know how to read S_S but I don't feel like he ever got to a point where he was "whelming" in tenet. Even in illicit he was probably limmable if I hadn't been an idiot and saw a PR tell that wasn't there. What meta stuff are you basing this off of?

his recent scumgame in radio buzz, wherein he coasted for ~2 dayphases on saying a lot of ineffectual nothings and never really sat down and provided reads or tried to solve despite promising to do so. think this looks like that

[Venus Fly Trap]

It's safe to assume EMMI is at least somewhat experienced because it's a gimmick account and I feel like those are almost always created by players with an established meta looking to have a more relaxing game where they dont have to play as hard to their established meta.

i was actually reading emmi as a new player and not as a gimmick account, fwiw

[Venus Fly Trap]

In addition I was kinda hoping lilith could be a backdoor into sorting that slot by someone with experience there after my colossal failure to get it right in MELO

[Venus Fly Trap]

These are probably the posts I like best from you S_S
You’re being assertive about your feelings but staying calm, you don’t seem worried about stepping on people’s toes a little

i don't think those are ai

[Venus Fly Trap]

I've found pooky town to be very easy to pick out from time to time. It's not been a tool i can use in this game so far. Usually he'll get into it w/ someone by now. I'd more trust my ability to read him than noraa.

(Skitter in the game we played together it's kinda how i felt midgame when they were going back and forth w/ cakez)

-b

bolded: not sure why you're bringign this up

~
and r.e. pooky/noraa yeahi kinda want pooky to be playing more (+ signing their posts cuz i can't tell them apart)
i'm not *fantastic* at reading him but i think i'd probably do a better job with him than noraa

[Venus Fly Trap]

or that scum thinks they'll actually go far / get anywhere by pushing someone that way

this is basically my holdup on M&M right now unless you just think they're trolling and are unconcerned with the strategy behind what they're trying to accomplish other than creating noise

-b

that's a fair point but for mm i just don't get why they double-down on gamma, i think most town backs off after the cc there

for mush like i feel it's a real thought they had and wanted to pursue

[Venus Fly Trap]

bolded: not sure why you're bringign this up

contextualizing how i get to town pooky in a way only you are likely familiar with and that i'm not seeing it here so far

-b

i guess ... i'm not sure i get this because this isn't really how i'd try to get to town-pooky at all

~

also

@cabd i forgot to say i'm always vla on fridays and saturdays

[Venus Fly Trap]

i don't know either, i'm confused by this whole tangent

@bork

[Venus Fly Trap]

i

think

i'm ok w/ vft for now. I'd probably expect skitter to capitulate / promise to research my comparison of myself to my tenet self (and it's not like we're under pressure atm that she'd lose ground by ceding a townread to mollify me)

either that or she doesn't think i'll be able to catch her anyway

which is probably correct

but gun to head i'd say town here

*winces*

-b

no offense but i think this is kinda a flimsy reason to townread me here
dunno why you think scum-me would capitulate there, don't think scum-me would try to be mollifying u

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

no? because i feel like you did a ton of that in ELO (mostly when you found out kismet was me)

well you're not ic-levels of obvtown here or running the show

[Venus Fly Trap]

appeasing

[Venus Fly Trap]

i feel like i did elsewhere, here i'm not having that 'aha' moment that like i'd like to have

either way noting that i dislike your present read on me
~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

can u give me a tldr on the kyr read critter?

[Venus Fly Trap]

either way noting that i dislike your present read on me
~ skitter

fine. don't like that we got here but there's clearly nothing to really be done on this front w/ this convo

-b

fair enuf

[Venus Fly Trap]

can u give me a tldr on the kyr read critter?

She said something I don’t think town says.

Explaining more is antitown but in a few days it will be obvious or I will explain it

. Combined with her intro and talks on flavor and extremely delayed reads while responding to posts reminds me of active lurking.

i took a quick look at your iso and i see a lot of 'let's flip kyo' but not a lot of reasoning for it
i kinda think you do have some sort of reasoning from the bolded but this isn't super convincing as is rn

[Venus Fly Trap]

critter's town

[Venus Fly Trap]

i would like to bump towelie down to a scumlean

[Venus Fly Trap]

critter's town

lolno

notsci, right?

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm not sure how to handle you at the moment and i'm not even remote fucking sure how we got here but i get the overall impression that trying to deal with you right now is going to not go well and i don't fucking get it

????

if i pissed you off i'm sorry but i don't know how this is a response to anything that i said ????

[Venus Fly Trap]

I for one love that its okay for LLD to make the choice when its someone not named Dunnstral, but when it was Dunnstral you started your Kyo push!

i think critter was objecting to the dunn push because he was townreading him
and now has some ~mysterious reason~ for scumreading kyo. idk what it is or why but there seems to be something underlying this push that he's not articulating

i don't see a contradiction

[Venus Fly Trap]

i am getting the impression that me directly interacting with you will not be helpful is what i'm trying to say based on your demeanor/tone toward me atm. You've not crossed any lines i just didn't think we'd be here.

-b

ok, i'll drop this interaction then
there's something else i theoretically want to say but it probably won't be helpful so yeah

[Venus Fly Trap]

I for one love that its okay for LLD to make the choice when its someone not named Dunnstral, but when it was Dunnstral you started your Kyo push!

i think critter was objecting to the dunn push because he was townreading him
and now has some ~mysterious reason~ for scumreading kyo. idk what it is or why but there seems to be something underlying this push that he's not articulating

i don't see a contradiction

What part of “I do not townread Dunn” do people not understand?

i'm talking about at the time of the flavor claim, you were townreading him at the time, no? that's what i thougth we were talking abt

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm not really sure i understand your issues with critter @notty

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm not really sure i understand your issues with critter @notty

I dont like the kyo push, nor do I think kyo is scum here in general. I find a bigger contradiction in him being okay to cede control to LLD over MM, who he thinks is town. This is in contrast to how he tried to change things to Kyo, who as of literally posts ago he states being unsure about Dunn's alignment, yet he tried to derail the exact same conftown from Dunn. I don't think that makes sense from a town POV at all.

His professed scumread of kyo was for doing a catchup wherein she quotes meme posts from the RVS/LLD calling code red a confscum claim phase, something he attributes to his own scum meta without any thoughts of if kyo would play the same, is there a track record of kyo doing the same, or anything else. And instead STILL refuses to share the reasons for the Kyo scumread.

a few things:
1. i don't know what the reason is for the kyo push exactly but i believe that it's there and that critter thinks that it's antitown to out it for whatever reason. this si probably not a super effective way of getting his scumreads flipped but i don't think it's just an empty bluster-y push cuz he wants to, i think there's some depth here that he's just not outing for whatever reason

2. i think his ideal flip is kyo, but if that's not gonna happen he will do what the ic wants.
2.a. he seems to want to end the day. again idk why but i think the now is a different gamestate to him than at the time of the dunn push. given that he wants to end the day his ideal push is kyo but an acceptable (albeit unwanted) outcome is mm because the ic wants it. at the time of dunn he wasn't really scumreading him and didn't feel it was time to concede that read yet

3. r.e. the scum meta thing i don't think he was calling kyo scum for that, but rather telling ss (who was townreading the lld vote) taht it's nai as it's possible for scum to do (as it's something he'd do himself)

[Venus Fly Trap]

don't think that's the best place to push rn tbh

[Venus Fly Trap]

like i can't explain the kyo read or why he wants the day to end, but givent hose givens, his play seems kinda fine to me and i don't take much issue with it

not sure if i explained that as well i can but i'm not sure how to articulate the thought exactly

[Venus Fly Trap]

his play seems kinda fine to me and i don't take much issue with it

i mean "kinda fine" [excepting some things that don't seem trivial that you said you don't understand reasons for] i feel like doesn't result in w/ 999

-b

i don't know why he has that thought process but given that this seems to be how he's approaching the game rn the rest follows and makes sense to me

i was trying to say that i don't have the issues with it htat u do

[Venus Fly Trap]

why mm now >.>
like i'm not complaining but i don't get what changed

[Venus Fly Trap]

I find a bigger contradiction in him being okay to cede control to LLD over MM, who he thinks is town.

this is notsci?

[Venus Fly Trap]

M&M: I agree w/ everything you said in your post about them, but like, none of that seems like it's scummy other than the double-down, and my biggest issue was that there was a whole paragraph of qualifying non AI stuff before you got there. Even so, what is their objective here as scum other than pushing a read you don't agree with?

Edit: this is one of the first blurbs I wrote over this wall-ish post and seeing holistically where I came out elsewhere I'm a little more sympathetic to your read here. I'm not writing this slot off because I genuinely don't understand their motivation to act how they're acting atm, but I guess I don't see any obvious scum motivation here other than to maybe create a distraction which seems of limited utility to me. For people saying pooky is acting like bloodstained, people should probably realize that pooky was legitimately trying to get elimed in bloodstained because it skipped a day. We're not going to see him playing for that objective regardless of alignment. I generally feel like pooky becomes a little easier to read as the game goes on. Not much experience w/ noraa other than I was very frustrated w/ her slot in tenet before she repped out and was town. This feels pretty similar to me in that regard.

like i want to be wagonign there but i'm gonna be honest i don't know if i understand ur progression

[Venus Fly Trap]

and sorry if i sound annoyed but if you want to use ELO as a crutch to hold me to a high standard then i am absolutely going to use tenet as a "if you really want to read me in another setting that i feel is similar, you've got ample subject matter"

-b

i thought we were dropping this but ok

i think if ur capable of obvtownign the fact that you're not is worrying, and i'm not sure why i should be using tenet as a baseline and not elo

i have no idea what you're trying to say

-b

you've been arguing with me basically since i started posting that you dont' think m&m is scummy so i don't get your vote or what changed

also it's getting kinda late so i'm gonna bounce and sleep, but we can continue tomorrow!

[Venus Fly Trap]

who is scumreading you for "discussing mountain dew in a mountain dew themed game"?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

@MUSH

@MUSH, can you talk to me about your read on SS?

- lilith

Thoughts are insufficient data. I literally woke up, ran down the stairs and went to the bank so I need some time to get my bearings. Best recollection is I don’t have enough to go on, though, which makes me want to squish it.

I’ll ISO and get my brain spinning while I eat.

"Insufficient data" seems different to me than what you had said before about SS:

Welp.

Calling Dunn flipping red. Regardless of flip, I also like the bears for scum right now.

Eyes on Critter, Something_Smart, StrangeMatter.

Basically I can tell he’s being sarcastic

Oh no. I think you misunderstand me. I am saying he’s scum because it’s sarcastic. I read it like Valley Girl tone of “Guess you’re the only person who reads matter”. It’s a put down to M while subtly agreeing that something I did was scummy.

I'd say deniably, not subtly, at the very most. I read it more like buddying you. Either way, because Something_Smart jumped too early (whoopsie doodle!), I got what I wanted out of this -- reads gathered include you town, Something_Smart leaning scum, Gamma leaning town, StrangeMatter hovering (which indicates scum for me if it goes on too long).

VOTE: StrangeMatter

But I don't want to wait for that to resolve. My read of StrangeMatter is that I'll be here awhile if I want to wait for it to happen. So I'm gonna shove here and see what gives, instead.


PEDIT: Well, looks like you got away from the "subtly" language at least.

has something changed that made you back off from your initial read?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

skitter says she believes critter is being genuine here and I'm probably just going to trust her on this one.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

Mostly just trying to elicit some engagement, and I thought you might have some insight about how she approaches town vs scum.

In addition I was kinda hoping lilith could be a backdoor into sorting that slot by someone with experience there after my colossal failure to get it right in MELO

-b

@bork does notsci have an opinion on me? I thought he had a decent rate of reading me in the past few games

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

What’s mollifying?

Pedit I mean you can try lol. I will find words later. I am more like some sodas in that I need to freeze in the fridge for a bit. I will grow on you.

Fwiw this strongly struck me as a crumb

if it's not signed, it's him

i'm not sure how to handle you at the moment and i'm not even remote fucking sure how we got here but i get the overall impression that trying to deal with you right now is going to not go well and i don't fucking get it

-b

Correct it won’t. You can push me. It won’t go well. Give it a day or two.

And this basically cemented the soft
(There was another similar post that too that i'm having a hard time finding on mobile)

Not entirely sure why he's suddenly dropping these but this is why i was trying to move things off of him last night ^

More later

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

kinda feel like we're wading through mud and hoping things magically become clear on later days

skitter, what about 997 made you confident (?) critter was town?

-b

Also had u guys figured it out here yet?

[Venus Fly Trap]

I thought he had a decent rate of reading me in the past few games

I thought the same about skitter and me but here we are in whatever's going on w/ her right now

-b

do u expect me to be townreading u here?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

But noooo someone had to go poke at something I didn’t want poked.

Please die for trying to out a supposed invest. Not one but this is a death sentence

tbf you probably should not have softed so hard that half the game picked up on it ....

why does scum-kyo out the soft again?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

his recent scumgame in radio buzz, wherein he coasted for ~2 dayphases on saying a lot of ineffectual nothings and never really sat down and provided reads or tried to solve despite promising to do so.

This feels inaccurate :/ I don't believe I made empty promises there? I think it was more that people kept asking me for more and I was just flat-out refusing to give it. And then I started making mechanical arguments and they went right over everyone's head.

i remember that i kept calling you scum like day1/day2 for something along the lines of 'ss repped in a week ago and hasn't done anything since despite promising to' and you feel the same way here

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

Wait, which head of VFT made the posts on page 41?

me (skitter)

[Venus Fly Trap]

I am not abandoning someone who blatantly outs perceived invests short of a guilty or airtight case.

it's anti-town, sure, but again i'm not sure why it's more likely that scum-her did so than town-her

also why were u pushing her prior to the soft thing, can u say that now or

[Venus Fly Trap]

I did it because it guarantees scum will see it and the potential motivation, if he is town, is to draw the NK off of LLD, or potentially if he really has a role, to be able to play aggressively and WIFOM scum into not shooting him because he's trying to draw a kill. However, if he is scum and makes it deep, this guarantees that someone who lives longer than me will poke at the soft later and not let it go unnoticed.

uh am i reading this right? you outed him in order to make sure scum sees it to draw the nk off of lld onto him? why wasn't gamma's claim sufficient for that exactly? why do u think scum would kill unknown-pr-critter over macho-ic?
this doesn't make sense to me

[Venus Fly Trap]

yes, but i wanted to know if you had and was prepared to drop it if so (hence 1052) but 1053 wasn't what i expected

-b

i had but like i wasn't going to out it at that point , so tried to give non-soft reasons to try to divert off of him

why were you going to drop it if i saw it?

[Venus Fly Trap]

There's like 3 people I trust to give me the gamestate straight right now. LLD, Gamma, and VFT. What am I seeing?

let's flip in like mm/emmi/ss
don't really like borksci
lld's town, critter's probably town town, dunn and wisdom too

[Venus Fly Trap]

1) does lillith think I should be townreading her?

2) that was the point of our contention (the softs). Bork said leave it be, and I’m of the opinion that nothing stops scum from softing?

-notty

1. idk we've not really talked about the game at all, i don't know anything more abt her reads than u do
2. fair enuf r.e. contention, i guess there's nothing stopping scum suddenly softing but the conviction/you're-not-gonna-flip-me vibe seems real to me
the one thing that i forgot to say about the soft that is niggling me a bit is why it kinda happened there suddenly ~post 1000 and not like earlier

that' not scummy per se but just noting it

[Venus Fly Trap]

Kyouko, EMMI, StrangeMatter
Let’s narrow it down to 3 slots

holistically kyo isn't as bad to me as the other slots i mentioned @gamma

[Venus Fly Trap]

Maybe there are some maybe there aren’t.

to clarify, whether or not there are or aren't crumbs earlier, i meant why you suddenly started leaning into the 'well you're not gonna be flipping me' vibe

[Venus Fly Trap]

Vote: Venus Fly Trap

Their stance on MM and Emmi is not good, their reads list reads like it was manufactured, not generated, their interactions with towlie make them look WAY worse and I think Towlie looks pretty town and finally their Signal to Noise ratio is way too high for my liking, especially for a slot that called others out on it. I can't find a solid stance in their ISO about most anything, mostly it's fights they're picking with the intent to stop others from progressing suspicions, not progressing their own.

Their reads (and their vote) haven't shifted this game near at all despite pages of content.

This is where I want to land today. If I'm wrong, there's nearly ALWAYS a scum in Wisdom/Dunnstral at that point.

hello, hi!

- what about my stance on mm/emmi is not good
- readlist was definitely not manufactured!
- i am still not convinced that bork is town (and we can go through the whole thing where this is not the approach scum-me takes with bork, if you'd like). i do not llike notsci's critter push
- dunno what you mean by signal-to-noise ratio
- i believe i have a quite a few solid stances in my iso on quite a lot of things, and i object to the characterization that i'm picking fights for nefarious purposes
- still think mm is scum, but am realizing that voting them is accomplishing close to nothing, was quasi-following along earlier and was gonna shift my vote to emmi when i posted tonight. you are free to believe that, or not, if you wish

i think i'm at e2 now or something, plz let me read through and give reads before y'all rush this

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

their interactions with towlie make them look WAY worse

basically where I ended up yesterday despite where i was earlier. I understand skitter being suspicious of the early townread i threw but she went from 0 to whoa on me like she was testing for cracks in the armor rather than trying to form a read, not really taking into account anything i said (or at least not really stating why she didn't like us other than meta after that), and while i don't think their should be a burden of proficiency on her townreading me, i think bringing up meta early and hanging one game over my head despite having a pretty large other body of work to try to work with (IF she wants to use meta, which is not something i demanded she do) as a reason to scumread me here seemed disingenuous to me.

notty is =/ on lilith, he can elaborate if he wants to

VOTE: vft

-b

a few things:

a) i object to the characterization that i 'went from 0 to whoa' on you, especially sicne i don't think i went to 'whoa' on you at all, and if anything i feel like your reactiosn to things i said were pretty extreme whose intensity didn't really match what i did or said

b) you're kinda a high-priority sort for me, so yeah, the fact that i wasn't townreading u meant that i wanted to spend time trying to sort you.

c) there's not a universe where scum-me thinks it's a good idea to do anything but slap a townread on u and call it a day. idk why you think i'd be approaching this as 'testing for cracks in the armor' here, or why you think that's a more likely universe than me trying to get a read on u

d) i was suspicious of the early townread, yeah, cuz i don't think i'd done enuf to be townread and i think u should have recognized that. it felt too early and if anything like *you* were trying to slap a townread on me for not much depth at all

e) i'm not using meta alone, but yeah i still don't think you've been town-bork in the way i'd expect

f) can't really speak to the notsci lilith stuff, sorry

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think the feeling i'm going to feel is complicated no matter which way she flips. tenet mood vs melo mood.

-b

i mean yeah

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think the feeling i'm going to feel is complicated no matter which way she flips. tenet mood vs melo mood.

-b

Well Tenet is why I hope I'm just right because I really don't wanna be wrong and then be yelled at, I guess.

well i'm feeling more fickle and less ~invested~ than i was at that point in tenet, so probably no yelling, but will be kinda annoyed, yeah

[Venus Fly Trap]

also just want to point out that this wagon got to e2 and mm's is strugglign to get there despite lld wanting it as well ...

[Venus Fly Trap]

There’s no reason for her to just suddenly swap her read on me like she did.

she saw a soft, same as me. I don't think that's an AI reaction.

-b

a) i didn't swap my read, i was townreading critter prior
b) dunno why you guys were pushing so hard if u saw the soft

[Venus Fly Trap]

I really think Skitter is town LLD. I don’t know about Lilith but the Skitter head I think is town.

I will be working all night but a promise is a promise.

What’s the vote count at?

Feel free to spend the time convincing me. I'm not unconvincable. This is just where I landed after a game review.

Assume for the moment that Skitter is scum. She could have easily went for “easier” elims or brought some to claim. The fact she hasn’t means one or more of the pushes done today has been on scum. There’s no reason for her to just suddenly swap her read on me like she did.

The fact no one has been brought to E-1 and we are at like a billion pages says something.

This is wholy unconvincing because you're forgetting we have an IC in the town and we had GE do a claim thing.

tbf my goal as scum wouldn't be to just wagon random people and hope more people claim
(and tbf i don't think most scum approach the game this way @critter)

[Venus Fly Trap]

Critter feels subversive. There's a lot of talk about town cohesion, bringing the town together, but when side-conversations occur about his slot, he starts tearing it up and driving wedges to spike the conversation dead. It's very... self-centered? play, which isn't necessarily anti-town, but what gets me is how when trying to direct/command/lead town it's very go-us, work-together, deadline-is-near, and when it comes to his slot it's very this-is-a-bad-idea, stop-saying-that, you'll-regret-this. There's no trust for players to come to equilibrium with specifically his own personal slot in particular.

i think he's a pr who's whole game is basically based around 'i'm a pr and i don't want to claim and i don't' think we should be getting other people to claim'
from that lens i think his whole play makes sense

(also i think there's slightly one more layer to the ssbm push that has not yet been articulated, and i think i know what it is, and once again given that it makes sense. good, no. scummy, not really either)

pedit tbf i don't think this is like 2013 meta? or at least not what i think 2013 meta to be? i don't think this is *that* low complexity

[Venus Fly Trap]

and we can go through the whole thing where this is not the approach scum-me takes with bork, if you'd like

i'm listening

-b

i'm gonna just hold this till i get to the posts in which u responded to my other post on u. like i see it let me just finish everything else and i'll get there

[Venus Fly Trap]

there's not a universe where scum-me thinks it's a good idea to do anything but slap a townread on u and call it a day

then why in the living hell did you object when i put an early townread on you for precisely NOT doing that??????

????????

????

-b

i mean i'd draw it out a bit and make it look good, like i'd be indecisive for a bit but ultimatley settle on a townread and then just stick with it for the rest of teh game
idk why u think i'd be drawing this out or bickering with u about this this whole time tho

[Venus Fly Trap]

we weren't voting there, and as you could see by my post to cap off the discussion there, weren't intending to.

-b

yeah fair enuf, i hadn't gotten that far yet
i think u should have dropped the push earlier but apparently notsci thinks otherwise

[Venus Fly Trap]

Gamma Emerald
Towelie (hydra of borkjerfkin and notscience)
MUSHSHAGANA
E. M. M. I.
Milk & Mocha (hydra of PookyTheMagicalBear and Noraa)
Venus Fly Trap (hydra of skitter30 and lilith2013)
Dunnstral
Wisdom
Lady Lambdadelta
Something_Smart
Critter
StrangeMatter
ssbm_Kyouko Toogeloo

lld
critter, gamma
wisdom
dunn, mush
strangematter, ssbm
emmi, something smart
towelie
mm

this is where i'm at ^

[Venus Fly Trap]

i'm saying that at the time, i think i was still within the range of what i would have done, so it was too early for a townread
i would not have, however, sat here and continued to fight with you by this point, and would have found some point to gracefully exit and just call it a day
like you're not someone i spend all of day1 fighting with as scum

[Venus Fly Trap]

You know what. I am borrowing from MathBlade. It helped him nail a scum team 3/3 can everyone do this?

viewtopic.php?p=13054226#p13054226

i mean we can, but no offense at this point idk if this is the most best way to work with what we've got so far

[Venus Fly Trap]

also just want to point out that this wagon got to e2 and mm's is strugglign to get there despite lld wanting it as well ...

just pointing this out again ^

[Venus Fly Trap]

you're not someone i spend all of day1 fighting with as scum

I guess my thoughts on that"

1) at the time, i might've looked limmable. maybe i still do. if you think I am, there's motivation for you to try.
2) even if you do not, I don't really accept the premise that it's never the right play to fight w/ someone you don't think is limmable
3) I don't really feel like you're trying to read me still. What are we scum for atm?

-b

1. that's not exactly how i work, i bucket people into 'would try to lim', 'will try to nk' for the most part, you're pretty strictly in the latter group unless i have a compelling reason otherwise (ahem, townreading me in elo)

2. i mean fair enuf but i'm telling u that's not how i would approach u (or really most people, i don't pick silly fights with people in the latter group as scum for the most part, becaue the way to handle them is townread + nk and/or try-to-avoid + nk)

3. a. think you're trying to find reasons to scumread me at this point / don't think ur scumread on me is real
b. i don't like that you guys were pushing critter so hard there when you had spotted the soft, or your reasons for still pushing him
c. i think u look buddy-ish with mm and don't like your progression on them or your initial townread on them
d. honestly at this point i don't feel like i've got much to like or townread and a lot of things i don't like

[Venus Fly Trap]

Take you VFT you’re the main wagon

lld
critter, gamma
wisdom
dunn, mush
strangematter, ssbm
emmi, something smart
towelie
mm

That’s you’re reads list. Where is your cutoff for would elim?

emmi's row and below, with ss being the border between the 2 groups
but i'm again just gonna point out that the broader exercise is probably not going to go anywhere just now

[Venus Fly Trap]

have i played with u before btw?

[Venus Fly Trap]

@skitter

I mean I feel like 3a has been explained to death, don't get your beef w/ 3b, don't understand 3c at all; just trying to get pooky to fucking post, was voting him at the time too, fail to see how that's a buddy move, and for someone who both in the past has read me great on meta and alluded to wanting to do so here you're sure...not even attempting to get to the stuff that i'm sure you'd like if you did.

These takes all feel bizarre.

Maybe we'll dance some other time but I feel like this is an impasse.

-b

3a - indeed
3b - i think that most town back off when they spot a soft like that, but you kept pushing. i think that his play has been p townie, and i think u should see that, and i don't know what ur still pushign him over even
3c - you spent a very long time arguign with me that i should be reading their behavior as nai and trying to get me off of them

but yeah i do kinda feel like we're going in circles a bit, if ur town i think we're talking past each other

[Venus Fly Trap]

i would like to bump towelie down to a scumlean

i only started playing on sunday and i said the above on monday while the critter thing was happening so

i would also argue that 3a and 3c have been going on since prior to that so honestly i don't know what you're trying to say with that

[Venus Fly Trap]

i think that most town back off when they spot a soft like that, but you kept pushing. i think that his play has been p townie, and i think u should see that, and i don't know what ur still pushign him over even

notty thinks he's scum just grandstanding w/ the soft. I don't particularly agree, but I just don't at all see how it's inherently scummy to push a slot that we recognized a soft in. I clearly saw it by then. Everyone fucking did.

-b

his entire play is literally based around being pr, it bleeds through his every post since then and i don't think he's faking it
you were trying to get me to acknowledge the soft and he was p clearly trying to indicate that should back off
unless you think he's faking it where were you even going with that

and r.e. mm you tried to talk me out of scumreading them multiple times and that looks partner-y to me

pedit i don't even know what to do with that mm post

[Venus Fly Trap]

why on earth are you scumreading dunn so strongly that your whole view on *me* is dependant on if he's scum or not

[Venus Fly Trap]

for 3c I figured you meant 1107

was not at all obvious that 1000 has anything to do w/ notty's interaction w/ critter; it looked like it was due to my interaction w/ you. I don't think a soft had at all been discussed there but you made that post in the post right after you apparently noticed the soft, so i don't get why you'd have immediately altered your perception of us based on that.

-b

no, i very distinctly remmber your response to my wall upon repping in had you tell me that you thought mm was utterly nai

1000 was for both of u, notsci was pushign him for bad reasons, for him being in a contradiction that i didn't think made him scummy, just having 2 different approaches to the game at 2 differnet points in the game. notsci i feel like should have been able to reocnigze that, and was pushing him for things that weren't actually scummy

pedit i mean yeah we're kinda going in circles

[Venus Fly Trap]

ok i'm calling it a night, i'll be around (late) tomorrow night again

pedit again i've said this at least 3x now, there's some underlying reason for the push that he's not articulating that's making him convinced ssbm is scum but he doesn't want to say it so he's coming up with other reasons to push her.

you're ignoring the whole 'play makes sense once you understand how he's approaching the game' thing that i keep brinigng up because it's inconvenient ...

and lilith's sick and there's not much i can say or do about that other than i hope she feels better, sorry

[Venus Fly Trap]

I agree w/ everything you said in your post about them, but like, none of that seems like it's scummy other than the double-down, and my biggest issue was that there was a whole paragraph of qualifying non AI stuff before you got there. Even so, what is their objective here as scum other than pushing a read you don't agree with?

here is what i said, and the point was that I didn't feel like you should've gotten to a scumread with the thoughts you had, not that i don't think someone could potentially scumread them. I will admit my language here was imprecise (and I wasn't really scumreading them either at the time)

even so i feel like this is a hell of a molehill.

I can be done w/ this and you can have whatever last word you want on it.

-b

i feel like we had another whole back and forth about why i shouldn't be voting them that i can't find right now, i'll look again tomorrow (i don't *think* ? i imagined that happening)

we can be done but i'm going to leave this here
VOTE: towelie

It’s why I haven’t really been pushing you guys, skitter.

The amount of people doing “covert” reads this game is dumb. Town should be more focused on killing scum than hiding shit. If he TRULY thought she was scum for whatever the duck it is, he would have outed it.

yep, fair enuf, you can push me tho if u think i'm scummy, i'm here and no reason to hold back at this point
and yeah i don't disagree, it's dumb and it's silly but it doesn't make him scum and i think you know that it doesn't make him scum
'town pr being coy around not wanting to out their pr etc' isn't scummy and is a fairly common thing for town prs to do, and you're utterly ignoring that universe for reasons that i don't understand

ok now i'm really going, night

[Venus Fly Trap]

I don't even know what the hell to think here anymore. This is just... all too much for my short-circuited brain.

There's like 3 people I trust to give me the gamestate straight right now. LLD, Gamma, and VFT. What am I seeing?

Also! It isn't settling. I actually think it's a good decision. I had my doubts to start (mostly to do with VFT needing to get their bearings...), but seeing how VFT conducted themselves since the pick has proven the point for me.

Can u explain a bit more abt how u went from the first to the second plz?

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

Critter is MathBlade

you dont say

I have to say that this was not who i was expecting and that this kinda goes against the model i have of town-critter on my head and my reasons for thinking critter is town are not as strong now

[Venus Fly Trap]

That's not to say i'm scumreading him but the reasons i'm townreading the slot arent as strong knowing it was math behind them if thay makes sense

[Venus Fly Trap]

Yes Skitter we have played together before obviously

Hello!

[Venus Fly Trap]

Kyo critter is tvt tbh

[Venus Fly Trap]

welp all I got from that was that SS is probably town

look bork/notsci I know you’re frustrated with skitter but fypov she should either be genuinely trying to sort you or scum, and I don’t think it’s either of our intent to make you upset or make it personal, which it kind of sounds like it’s getting to. I think that’s partly why I (and maybe she but I can’t read skitter’s mind) started questioning there, because she went down a path that I didn’t think was supposed to be.. accusatory? in my mind but it seems that’s how it was taken. at the end of the day it’s just a game and I hope you aren’t taking it personally/in an oog sense. my question to bork was primarily borne of confusion that you’d try to consult with SS about me given that I’d expect you to have a hydra head that could give about the same confidence on reading me as SS but with the benefit of you knowing you can trust them; and that SS kind of has to give the same answer regardless of his alignment otherwise it’d be suspicious, so I was skeptical of how you were expecting his response to help sort him. I don’t think yall are scum necessarily, just that we don’t seem to be on the same wavelength.. but apparently I have very different reads than skitter.

pedit: well this just makes me not want to play the game :/

ppedit: please don’t discuss ongoing games.

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

blegh I have bad feelings about critter WKing us now

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

look bork/notsci I know you’re frustrated with skitter but fypov she should either be genuinely trying to sort you or scum, and I don’t think it’s either of our intent to make you upset or make it personal, which it kind of sounds like it’s getting to

it's not for me, and i know i got a little heated early on but i've been able to move past that, and fmpov skitter hasn't crossed any lines into personal. if I have crossed those lines i'll reflect on where and try not to in the future.

-b

not on our end idt, just felt like you were getting frustrated in the most recent exchange between you and skitter and I wanted to make sure you weren’t oog upset about it

pedit @bork: did you get anything out of it?

- lilith

[Venus Fly Trap]

Busy irl today, will be around tomorrow night

~ skitter

[Venus Fly Trap]

@bork:
i actaully feel a little bit better abt u after ur convo with pooky tbh - i feel like if ur scum it's very easy to continue in the scumread on me and just blame my flip on lld after the fact, and the fact that you were listening to him and rethought ur stance based on the points he brought up is unlikely to come from scum there in this gamestate imo

~
@pooky:
i'm more than a little bit weirded out by the fact that the one and only thing you've actaully engaged with in like a week is trying to get bork to not vote me
where are u getting town-me from?

~

@lld:

Where as Venus' reads don't fucking make any sense when i read them. They just don't.

The reason I didn't pick to kill you, Wisdom, is when I read your reads, your reads fucking make sense.

just pointing out that the reads you're objecting to are nearly identical to wisdom's >.>

Like they scum read EMMI and SM and find MM's trolling weird and not town, and keep their vote on MM the entire day until they're pushed.

Is that a true or false statement, Wisdom? Answer me that, at least.

Their reads don't make sense with their play. Their reads are on a subset of lurking players who they can hedge on because it's REAL EASY to take those stances on players who show very little. Their stated reasons for scum reading them boil down to each time "not enough engagement, bad engagement" but then they never follow up.

- my read on pooky/noraa was stronger than on the other 2 slots, so i voted there. not sure why this is a problem
- also, in most games, i can reasonably expect pooky/noraa to respond to a vote on them, which i can then use to refine my read (tbf that didn't happen here but that's different than most over games i've played with them). emmi/sm don't really seem like the sort of players that would respond to votes on them (and haven't ...). what are you expecting 'follow-through' to look like here even?

The only reason to push Pooky over any of those slots for THAT LONG is if you felt that Pooky/Noraa was scummier and needed more pressure but they have the LURKERS as scummier and wouldn't putting pressure on the lurker slots to create content or die in that scenario with their reads make more sense as a town perspecitve?

yes, exactly, i felt pooky/noraa was scummier and creatign pressure that i believed (and hoped) that the pressured slot would respond to. emmi has votes on her and has basically done nothing. SM's response to pressure has been scummy the way they're popping in

also if pooky/noraa is scum they're harder to deal with and they *need* to be pushed more - people are always going to circle back to emmi/SM, but pooky/noraa are more dangerous and can talk their way out of stuff more, and if they're scum it's important to get that sorted and handled earlier on. like scum-emmi/sm aren't really ~threatening~ to anything and don't need my immediate attention and focus. scum-mm does.

also i don't really know what else to here tbh. i'm not scum, you're complaining that my reads and trajectories don't make any sense when they're p much right there for anybody to follow, and my wagon basically exists because you demand it, and some of the people on it don't even think i'm scummy

~

I think this meta here is almost a dead ringer for what she is posting here. I don’t see VFT scum at all.

eh that's like 4 year old meta, i'm not sure how much i look like that anymore, tbf

~

one of the very first meaningful VFT posts in the entire game.

That doesn't account for an extended spiral of increasingly weird, on-edge posts after LLD made her decision.

I haven't seen more than maybe one vaguely townish post from VFT since Page 55.

Initially, sure, because I trust her and she's town ANYWAY, I did follow her.

Since then I have seen a lot of weird ass fucking twists and turns from VFT

that have dropped them from "Eh sure let's call it town" to "basement bullshit scum", THATS WHY I'M HAPPY TO STAY THERE. It looks like scum that don't know how to get out of a hole they put themselves in.

hi i'd like to hear more about these please

If you want to scan while I’m handling all that, the things to look for are desperation statements (recognizing a sense of futility) combined with incoherently changing reads and unbalanced player list engagement (e.g. more time spent on less immediately available players). Contrast against pre-LLD-push posting.

and i object to this characterization, thank you

Wisdom, I was going to grab your posts (belatedly), but I realized it might all be for naught if I have to destroy every scrap of good will offered to me out of pure spite, so we will see how this pans out first.

i want these posts too
~

in other new thoughts:
critter is still obviosuly town
i feel worse on mush
a bit better abt ss

~

don't want to be voting towelie anymore
VOTE: emmi

[Venus Fly Trap]

I highly doubt Skitter thinks she can remove me on D1 unless it's some random lol-wagon that runs off the rails.

tbf this is not something scum-me tries to do, no

~ skitteR

(above was skitter too, sorry, forgot to sign)

[Venus Fly Trap]

not sure that i like his opinions (or his obstinate not-having/sharing opinoins )
but i feel like his convictions and stances have more ~depth~ than they do as scum

like the whole bit where he listed who he wouldn't flip - he was technically and literally answering the question *who he would flip*, but not how he's actually reading people
but i don't think that's something he would do as scum, he would just dredge up a list of names that he would vote for to appease you/answer the question, he wouldn't stubbornly not answer it because he doesn't want to. like as scum he would try to answer more conventionally or make it look better if that makes sense

i'm not sure i'm explainign this well but even though he isn't being *helpful* i don't think he approaches things this way as scum
like his self-righteousness in not having opinions feels different than scum-him-not-having-opinions

[Venus Fly Trap]

Maybe four years old but it’s the most representative game I have of you. So I am rolling with it.

eh it still probably isn't a great way to read me either way /shrug

[Venus Fly Trap]

@mush why am i scum plz ?

[Venus Fly Trap]

@towlie well a few things:

- i thought u looked partner-y with mm but i dont think that's an interaction scum-mm has with partner-you when it would be so, so, so easy for u both to stay on me there
- similarly in general i thought ur read on me was bad, and there's no reason for scum-you to go through the song and dance of reconsidering
- also i feel a lot better now that u see town!Critter too and arent pushing them anymore

How are u reading pooky now after that interaction btw

[Venus Fly Trap]

and the fact that you were listening to him and rethought ur stance based on the points he brought up is unlikely to come from scum there in this gamestate imo

on some level like this is what i thought you'd say here

on another i hoped you'd take a last swing at me

-b

I mean i can if u want but i dont really scumread u anymore so that would be silly

[Venus Fly Trap]

we're vt

just gonna point out that basically nobody is presently scumreading us other than lld + possibly mush, and that *this* is the wagon that took off out of all the ones that lld has wanted, and that the game has basically stagnated since that happened

ah fuck me

[Venus Fly Trap]

there is absolutely scum in the people voting us, i would start with mush or dunn

[Venus Fly Trap]

lld is just bad and cant even talk to me when im showing her the reasons shes scumreading vft do not exist
at least i tried

i mean i tried too but she's apparently not that interested in engaging with that

and i think mush or dunn, don't like how dunn has hopped on and basically disappeared since then

[Venus Fly Trap]

i mean i scumread her and i'm obviously not going to vote myself

[Venus Fly Trap]

the last time I let a "conftown" kill skitter when my read on her was town I kind of hated it and then the conftown spent the next day yelling at me for disagreeing with him and then he tried to get the town to kill me and the town stopped listening to him and we killed the last scum.

you also have enough votes to kill her without me. Pretty sure EMMI/SM will vote with you at a minimum.

what game was this

[Venus Fly Trap]

also lld kinda wish you'd engage with me here instead of ignoring me ...

[Venus Fly Trap]

busy irl, we haven't talked much at all abt this game

~ skitteR

[Venus Fly Trap]

Scum-Venus doesnt claim a pr to draw ccs because..?

I mean obviously i would claim pr here as scum to draw the cc ...

I'm not getting flipped because i'm scum, or even because a majority of people in this pl think i'm scum

I'm getting flipped because lld got it in her brain that i'm scum and its a ridiculously easy position for scum to sheep (and just noting, again, that *this* is the wagon that's getting sheeped, and not dunn or bears)

Most of the people voting me dont even think i'm scum

Gamma Emerald
Towelie (hydra of borkjerfkin and notscience)
MUSHSHAGANA
E. M. M. I.
Milk & Mocha (hydra of PookyTheMagicalBear and Noraa)
Venus Fly Trap (hydra of skitter30 and lilith2013)
Dunnstral
Wisdom
Lady Lambdadelta
Something_Smart
Critter
StrangeMatter
ssbm_Kyouko Toogeloo

Town: lld, Wisdom, critter
Townlean: towelie, ssbm
Idk/in the middle: gamma, dunn
Scumlean: mm, ss, strangematter, mush
Ss: emmi

Largely the same as before, except towelie has gone up, and mush and dunn have gone down

After i flip i'd start by looking at the votes on wagon, in particular mush and dunn's

These are my reads, and where i think u ought to look tom

I'll be around more after work, if i'm not flipped yet