Open 833: Twin Trap [Postgame]

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Norwee

[Deimos27]

Alt?

[Deimos27]

I am once again requesting the presence of humans with whom to exchange words

[Deimos27]

Because otherwise I will be vacuously monologuing for the next 30min before I have a meeting with my professor to discuss my last essay

[Deimos27]

Speaking of which, the delay in the start of this game was actually quite convenient cause I got a lot of schoolwork off my plate last night and my next essay is only due in two weeks.

So that's the kind of time horizon on which I expect us to win.

[Deimos27]

Hiiii!

[Deimos27]

So that's the kind of time horizon on which I expect us to win.

Fast worker.
I like it.

It'd be even faster if you voted yourself

[Deimos27]

Oh wait that reminds me

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Deimos

[Deimos27]

Just making a point.
VOTE: Norwee

[Deimos27]

Already sounds too polite to be Pooky

[Deimos27]

So how does one win on this site as scum these days, anyway
Asking for a friend

[Deimos27]

You got any personal favourite scum playstyle Norwee?

[Deimos27]

Deimos, are you track-immune or watch-immune?

Asking for an friend.

The solution is left as an exercise for the reader

[Deimos27]

I return
You watch the premier league A50?

[Deimos27]

I haven't paid attention to football in a few years but recently a season pass to Arsenal matches kinda fell into my lap.

[Deimos27]

(my father gave me his)

[Deimos27]

Deimos seems excited to be in the game, but aren't we all.
I can't say if it leans one way or the other.

Anyway, unprompted null reads are performative and +scum

[Deimos27]

That is my page 2 hot take

[Deimos27]

The fact that I don't know what a "kop" is or what Egypt has to do with Arsenal (just Elneny?) tells me that this choice of subject was a serious miscalculation.

[Deimos27]

Wanna vote me or Norwee and get those wagons rolling?

[Deimos27]

Wanna vote me or Norwee and get those wagons rolling?

Oh boy, wagons.

VOTE: Deimos

How's that wagon feel?

Not like much yet. Needs one or two more votes

[Deimos27]

The fact that I don't know what a "kop" is or what Egypt has to do with Arsenal (just Elneny?) tells me that this choice of subject was a serious miscalculation.

You can't be a real soccer fan if you don't know the nicknames of clubs and/or fans. Kops/Kopiters are Liverpool fans. And yes, El Neny is what I was referring to, but I am a Liverpool supporter because Salah is the Egyptian King

Ah well if someone called me a "real soccer fan" I'd probably be offended so that's ok

[Deimos27]

I did actually

play

the sport, 3 years as goalkeeper and another 3 as left back, I'd be happy to talk about that lol

[Deimos27]

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

Is this what I do until everyone shows up?

Precisely

[Deimos27]

I am calm. I am playing to my wincon and I consider the current vote distribution favourable.

[Deimos27]

My initial vote on you was RVS but then you mildly pinged my gut and as such I am administering a modest dosage of wagon

[Deimos27]

We should set NM to E-1 specifically so he is unable to do his self-vote opening

[Deimos27]

Nice new avatar you've got there

[Deimos27]

Can't say mine has changed in 5 years

[Deimos27]

Valid consideration

[Deimos27]

Yeah I'm not really seeing whatever TA is seeing tbh. Maybe "I'm a little confused" is one sentence in 75 that feels marginally less natural but idk

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Dorsey

N_M would 100% hammer himself for the first post in the game if he was E-1.

How serious was this vote?

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Dorsey
Cool I feel the same

[Deimos27]

It is not something to be known by mere mortals.
But I assure you that at some point in the past you have experienced Deimos, and at some point in the future you will again.

[Deimos27]

Two words: temporal scope.

If redtea said that it's likelier for town to be eliminated

today

because

they

are the majority, I'd be jumping for joy. But given that they instead made the generalised claim that town is

always

the likelier elimination, I see "they" as a far more natural and grammatical pronoun than "we", because games where redtea either isn't playing or isn't town-aligned are included in "always".

[Deimos27]

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was empirically +scum to use "we" in a context like that because such pronoun tells are fairly popular and something I know I've been self-conscious about before as scum, increasing the probability of making a sentence less grammatical for the sake of using the alignment-consistent pronoun.

My two cents.

[Deimos27]

Yeah I'd say TA +town
Wish I knew her main

[Deimos27]

I prefer to pretend I gave you that pagetop on purpose than admit I did not notice it was up for grabs

[Deimos27]

Fun +400%

[Deimos27]

With these levels of activity we're not winning within 2 weeks

[Deimos27]

Seems fairly straightforward

[Deimos27]

Let's lim scum early so one of the pr's no longer gets false negatives

[Deimos27]

I think redtea got slightly scummier over his last few posts btw

[Deimos27]

their*
damnit

[Deimos27]

I haven't read up and dont really plan to but idk what ur on. NM has some pretty sexy reads despite the fact that he doesn't post much. So get ur facts straight.

You won't read 5 pages?
Somehow I respect it

[Deimos27]

Now we just need a vote on redtea for the legendary 4-way tie

[Deimos27]

Or wait no NM would need another vote too
Whatevs

[Deimos27]

You are an enigma, Dorsey

[Deimos27]

Even for page 6 I think you are concerningly IIoA. There's an obsessiveness with self-meta and a complete absence of any semblance of an attempt to sort another player

[Deimos27]

what made kop seem like a better start over a50?

I'm happy to see this it is a step in the right direction

[Deimos27]

Well I'm sure glad there's someone smart here to make a concise defense.

Also I was uncomfortable with this application of butter

[Deimos27]

In fact although Dorsey is a good vote I currently prefer exploring this direction
VOTE: redtea

[Deimos27]

Is the first elimination always town? Because how are you supposed to know who's who?

Because I find it easier to believe that this is scum poorly faking noobtown than town with two completed games already still making such a noobish comment.

[Deimos27]

Is the first elimination always town? Because how are you supposed to know who's who?

Because I find it easier to believe that this is scum poorly faking noobtown than town with two completed games already still making such a noobish comment.

Have you done any meta? I mean I know that I liked pulling noob cards a lot when I first started out. So I see what you mean but at the same time, I also think most people actually start out with a bunch of town games so are naturally a little more lost.

I did no more than glance at those games to make sure it was in fact town who got eliminated D1. I'd say after Dorsey's subsequent posts the tell has further deteriorated in value because they have shown their mentality is going to remain consistent.

[Deimos27]

Do u have READS

I don't feel the need to respond to redtea's posts this page because I think Norwee summarised my point very well here.

And it's not just "do you have reads", it's "where have you shown that you are trying to generate reads", y'know.

I get that most of the content so far is RVS and there are other players who have lacking analysis but redtea is one of us who has posted the most so I was hoping for

something

from them.

[Deimos27]

Happy birthday though

[Deimos27]

I haven't read up and dont really plan to but idk what ur on. NM has some pretty sexy reads despite the fact that he doesn't post much. So get ur facts straight.

VOTE: Noraa

This pinging me.

Is this something on which you can elaborate or is it a tonal thing

[Deimos27]

I'm trying very hard not to insult Dorsey which is why I didn't want to spell it out, but the point is that if you make a super noobtown post then obviously it's very +scum to later make posts that reveal you were all along capable of coherent logical thought

[Deimos27]

@Mod

I would greatly appreciate a vote count at this time

[Deimos27]

I would greatly appreciate not hammering before Kop has more than literally 2 posts and A50 has to produce actual game-related content

[Deimos27]

The way people jump to attack mode is weird. You literally know nothing - why so aggressive? Noraa, Deimos.

VOTE: Noraa

I'm probably going to ignore you some more. I have no idea what you asked me.

Nah, I'm good

These posts are all scumclaims

Agreed.

Can one of you spell it out for me

[Deimos27]

TA I'm lost and you're my only tr can you shed light

[Deimos27]

I'm trying very hard not to insult Dorsey which is why I didn't want to spell it out, but the point is that if you make a super noobtown post then obviously it's very +scum to later make posts that reveal you were all along capable of coherent logical thought

Is it? Ok this discussion is gonna go a bit off topic. And I still think Dorsey is scum but I like self meta. I know that my town game has been described as "wants to leave a strong first impression to get town reads" and my first two games ever were all scum games so I learned how to be scum first. I feel like that kind of lead to be liking the noob card even as town. But under pressure, my analysis normally does get deeper? Idk my meta is all over the place at this point.

If I'm understanding the mechanism you're proposing correctly you're basically saying people effort more under pressure. But people don't become intelligent from being under pressure, if anything it is often the contrary.

Even if you were right we could just hold pressure constant and therefore eliminate it as a confounding variable.

[Deimos27]

Whatever, this is something to talk about postgame as it's not affecting the current gamestate

[Deimos27]

I would greatly appreciate not hammering before Kop has more than literally 2 posts and A50 has to produce actual game-related content

UNVOTE:
There in spirit

I like you now

[Deimos27]

Both for town and as a person
Now can you explain your Dorsey sr which apparently everyone in the game but me sees

[Deimos27]

Like I don't understand a thing Dorsey is saying and they seem adversarial and uncooperative which makes them a +equity elim but whether all that is scum-indicative for them I'm not sure.

[Deimos27]

? But you've been beaten? Or won, depending on your alignment. The wagon goes through with 5 votes regardless of any unvoting.

I did not realise it reached 5 votes but if so we will find out soon enough

[Deimos27]

TA I'm lost and you're my only tr can you shed light

Doesn't make sense for town to vote me over you if they think the SR on them is bad. For me, it reminds me of how as scum I like to poke and prod around to see where town's weak spots are. I hate to use this other reason but oh well. The flailing came a bit early. I feel bad for saying that as someone who has literally been tunneled to hell and back for reasons like this but I do think it still applies to some extent here.

Ok sure, though they explained that they voted you because you already had a vote. That seems reasonable to me.

[Deimos27]

I think they’re hammered.
I’ll reserve any judgement made, until i see the flip.

... When did the meta on this site become D1 flashwagon elims

[Deimos27]

A50+, Deimos+, Kop+, Noraa++, Tamora - my guess

What are the +'s for

[Deimos27]

Ok sure, though they explained that they voted you because you already had a vote. That seems reasonable to me.

Why is that reasonable? I they took issue with the SR on them, they should be voting the person they think is most likely to be scum (the pusher which now I'm confused since you dont think Dorsey is scum? since apparently the push is bad) as opposed to whoever is more likely to be elimmed. The day is still early and it doesn't make sense to already be thinking about that.

It's not a matter of whether you agree, it's a matter of whether you think town!Dorsey is likely to use that as a consideration. They seem to believe that the pressure exerted by the vote is currently more valuable than the probability that the target of the vote is scum.

Maybe they think I'm only slightly +scum compared to you. It's all up to the relative weightings of those things in their mind.

[Deimos27]

They seem to believe that the pressure exerted by the vote is currently more valuable than the probability that the target of the vote is scum.

But that's straight up scum mentality.

If so then we should stop using RVS

[Deimos27]

Lots of people believe that the information gained to town from pressure on a player is greater than the information gained from having a symbolic vote on your #1 sr

[Deimos27]

I'm just saying I don't think we should have rushed to analyse Dorsey based on objective considerations. They're clearly new to the game so their mentality is likely to be flawed no matter what, and I wanted to set a baseline for it first before trying to observe deviations. I think that's how you analyse beginners.

[Deimos27]

But yeah let us wait for a flip ig

[Deimos27]

That is not what I was expecting

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Noraa

[Deimos27]

almost didn't crumb did he

I literally just went to check his iso wondering the same

[Deimos27]

This is an ego post. I'll be back sooner than later

First two letters of first two words: TI
First letter of first word in each sentence: TI

Perhaps

[Deimos27]

Could be that too

[Deimos27]

I think I've played a game with him at some point but I'm not in fact sure

[Deimos27]

Norwee how much have you played with Noraa

[Deimos27]

We def need fat content from Kop today

[Deimos27]

I'm town

NMMMMMMMMM I've come to sheep you :333
I will catch you up!
Currently there is scummy alarm bells on Norwee for saying im not the fluffiest tsunami.
Deimos towny
I've skipped all of redtea's posts
Kop's one post towny.
Game state kinda ded.

Noraa why wouldn't you read redtea's posts and can you give a read on them yet

[Deimos27]

Norwee how much have you played with Noraa

A couple of games.

Upon re-reading D1 I shouldn't have bothered asking because you are likely town

[Deimos27]

???

[Deimos27]

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

[Deimos27]

#282 reads like it was ghostwritten by Dorsey

[Deimos27]

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

almost was literally almost certainly not vt by tone and the way he was so slippery feeling. i dont see how anyone can look back and be like oh its surprising almost was a pr.

I said "almost50

nk

" how is this even being twisted into me being surprised that he's pr instead of being surprised he was the NK choice at all.

These posts look so agenda driven it's kind of mindnumbing

[Deimos27]

How can you have that level of confidence in your Kop read from 4 posts

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

almost was literally almost certainly not vt by tone and the way he was so slippery feeling. i dont see how anyone can look back and be like oh its surprising almost was a pr.

That is not what I was expecting

Well this is scummy. You've had a whole night to process the flip and you're saying Dorsey flipping town is surprising?

I think these posts are actually very interesting cause there's 0 chance anyone else misunderstood me; the context is super obvious. So it tells us Noraa is either confbiasing me or driving a lim on me out of scum agenda.

But they're unlikely to be confbiasing because they expressed a tr on me D1 so it's more likely these posts come from a scum agenda.

[Deimos27]

Why would it be from a scum agenda?
And tbf, i didn’t really know myself whether your first comment was referring to the D1 flip, the nightkill, or both.

I have the perception of being fairly townread at the moment and so there is scum motivation to eliminate me (or otherwise sow discord and prevent a townblock from forming that includes me). I could obviously be wrong about being townread, but in any case I also know I am town and that alone is scum motivation to eliminate me.

Furthermore the argument was that it must be scum agenda

because

it cannot be town-motivated and scum agenda is the only option that remains.

I apparently stand corrected about the level of ambiguity my first post contained but surely you find it weird that Noraa

assumed

one uncharitable interpretation over any other instead of asking, and then proceeded even to somehow misread my follow-up explanation and misinterpret in a different uncharitable way?

[Deimos27]

But they're unlikely to be confbiasing because they expressed a tr on me D1 so it's more likely these posts come from a scum agenda.

hahahahahahah this applies to you far better than myself unfortunately

Please don't laugh at me. How does it apply to me? Did I TR you D1? Is my argument relying on a misinterpretation of you so blatantly uncharitable it must be confbias or scum agenda?

[Deimos27]

Actually I recall that I did say "I like you for town now" when you unvoted but I think it's fairly clear that tell was disqualified as soon as it turned out your last vote was already hammer.

[Deimos27]

I have the perception of being fairly townread at the moment and so there is scum motivation to eliminate me (or otherwise sow discord and prevent a townblock from forming that includes me). I could obviously be wrong about being townread, but in any case I also know I am town and that alone is scum motivation to eliminate me.

Furthermore the argument was that it must be scum agenda because it cannot be town-motivated and scum agenda is the only option that remains.

I don't see how it is scum motivation

just

wanting to eliminate you. Dorsey scumread you, and that clearly wasn't scum motivation.

Obviously there is often

also

town motivation to want to eliminate people. My entire argument was that any reasonable ascription of town motivation fails because such gross adversarial uncharitable misinterpretations only come from town when it is due to confbias and confbias doesn't apply here.

[Deimos27]

surely you find it weird that Noraa assumed one uncharitable interpretation over any other instead of asking, and then proceeded even to somehow misread my follow-up explanation and misinterpret in a different uncharitable way?

^

[Deimos27]

Yesterday's "oh geez" accidental hammer needs to be held accountable and that is why I am voting Noraa. They need to be at least on the table for elimination today.

[Deimos27]

But they're unlikely to be confbiasing because they expressed a tr on me D1 so it's more likely these posts come from a scum agenda.

hahahahahahah this applies to you far better than myself unfortunately

Please don't laugh at me. How does it apply to me? Did I TR you D1? Is my argument relying on a misinterpretation of you so blatantly uncharitable it must be confbias or scum agenda?

I can't stay for long but what do you even mean dont laugh at me? You're literally the one who went from "you're my only TR" to "you're scum" and now you're pointing at me like HOW DARE YOU REVERSE YOUR READ ON ME.

Please go find the post where I said "you're my only tr" and have another look at whom it's addressed to (hint: "TA"). The fact that you reversed your read on me is only one premise in an argument that was personalised to your posts and has no application to me. There is no hypocrisy angle for you here.

[Deimos27]

if norwee seems town he's probably scum
but trying to sort norwee early doesnt seem to turn out well so don't expect me to go after him

So are you null on him rn or what?

[Deimos27]

I did get a bit paranoid by Deimos’s 281, just because it feels a bit pockety how they ascribed me town "for my day 1", without elaborating further. But i’m also not a super fan of Noraa’s instapush so far.

You may notice I also have not elaborated on my TA tr. I find it harder to elaborate on tr's in general because of how much I rely on resonance. But I will do what I can.

On multiple occasions you've chimed in with questions where I've gone "wow that's a good question". One example that really jumps out at me every time I read is when you showed up in twilight asking Noraa if they were aware they placed the hammer vote, which I credit immensely for two reasons:

1. It forces a situation where we know scum!Noraa always lies and town!Noraa always tells the truth so we get an excellent focal point for tonal analysis.

2. In my experience scum likes not to post in twilight when they haven't already established a recent presence in thread because it's just less cognitive load to wait when you know day will end soon anyway than to show up and fake more posts.

Furthermore, though perhaps it is unduly arrogant of me as you may have changed in the last year, I feel that given my experience with scum!you you simply would've said something that pings me more by now.

[Deimos27]

I don't consider the NM vote unreasonable.

[Deimos27]

Waiting on Kop

[Deimos27]

Spoiler: Noraa quote 1

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

almost was literally almost certainly not vt by tone and the way he was so slippery feeling. i dont see how anyone can look back and be like oh its surprising almost was a pr.

I said "almost50

nk

" how is this even being twisted into me being surprised that he's pr instead of being surprised he was the NK choice at all.

These posts look so agenda driven it's kind of mindnumbing

That's the exact same thing. I don't really want to spell out the typical behavior of prs for scum but had I not known A50's meta, I would've thought he was a pr instead of scum.

It's not the exact same thing at all. You have this very strange habit of assuming everyone else needs to think exactly how you do for them to be town. It backfired with Dorsey and it's backfiring with me. I don't play town trying to pr hunt, and I had no reason to think A50 was likelier to be pr than scum, and in the latter case he obviously would not be the NK.

The reason I emphasise I was surprised he was the NK rather than I was surprised he was PR is because P(pr!A50 = True | A50 = NK) >>> P(A50 = NK). As soon as I see he's the NK (which surprises me) I obviously immediately make the inference that such an NK can only happen when he has been read as PR, and so the flip does not surprise me.

Spoiler: Noraa quote 2

Pray tell why you would assume my comment pertained to the Dorsey flip instead of the almost50 nk, especially given all the context immediately following?

almost was literally almost certainly not vt by tone and the way he was so slippery feeling. i dont see how anyone can look back and be like oh its surprising almost was a pr.

That is not what I was expecting

Well this is scummy. You've had a whole night to process the flip and you're saying Dorsey flipping town is surprising?

I think these posts are actually very interesting cause there's 0 chance anyone else misunderstood me; the context is super obvious. So it tells us Noraa is either confbiasing me or driving a lim on me out of scum agenda.

But they're unlikely to be confbiasing because they expressed a tr on me D1 so it's more likely these posts come from a scum agenda.

Nahhhhhhhh that was a pretty reasonable thing to assume. In hindsight, A50 is not at all a strange kill but I don't think elaborating on that is a good idea at this point in time. I actually dont believe I expressed a TR on you d1. My opinion of my read on you was that it was surface level towny. By no means a TR. Surface level towny and town towny are super different things.

You keep saying it's reasonable without substantiating that claim at all.
You never said I was "surface level towny", you only said "Deimos towny", and that's what I was working off of when I said you tr'd me D1. It's certainly close enough to a tr to establish that you weren't tunneling me and therefore had no reason to confbias at the start of this day, which is all I need.

Spoiler: big quote chopped up and w/ responses

Why would it be from a scum agenda?
And tbf, i didn’t really know myself whether your first comment was referring to the D1 flip, the nightkill, or both.

I have the perception of being fairly townread at the moment and so there is scum motivation to eliminate me (or otherwise sow discord and prevent a townblock from forming that includes me). I could obviously be wrong about being townread, but in any case I also know I am town and that alone is scum motivation to eliminate me.

Furthermore the argument was that it must be scum agenda

because

it cannot be town-motivated and scum agenda is the only option that remains.

I apparently stand corrected about the level of ambiguity my first post contained but surely you find it weird that Noraa

assumed

one uncharitable interpretation over any other instead of asking, and then proceeded even to somehow misread my follow-up explanation and misinterpret in a different uncharitable way?

Let me sum up your argument for you. "I am town. Therefore SRs on me come from scum"
If you think that as town, thats a bit disappointing.

How many times are you going to misrepresent my argument? "I'm town therefore sr's on me come from scum", are you kidding me I never said that nor would I ever say that. Let me remind you what my argument was.

P1: The degree of uncharitable that Noraa's interpretation of me was comes only from scum or confbiasing town
P2: It cannot be coming from confbiasing town
C: Therefore it is coming from scum

Norwee was asking why I think there's scum motivation. Do I really need to explain to you why scum might be motivated to sr town?
Let's look at some basic conditionals in their logical form:

(1) if [scum!Noraa = True] then [Noraa would sr me]
(2) if [Noraa sr's me] then [scum!Noraa = True]

I have never suggested anything along the lines of (2); that is your own invention. Whenever we're talking about whether there's possible scum motivation we're exploring whether it is

coherent

to think of you as scum, as in (1), not whether you definitely

are

scum, as any discussion of

that

would also require reference to town motivations.

Ftr since we're talking about yesterday, I think your positioning around the Dorsey wagon was pretty scummy. I wanted to say this earlier just felt like it'd look OMGUSy.

Yesterday, you basically started the wagon. But then somehow at the end of the day, it seemed like you were the most against the wagon.

Norwee and I started the wagon, this is true. I did so on the basis of a tell that I later explicitly claimed to have "deteriorated in value" for reasons that were completely consistent with the reasons for which I disagreed with your scumread at the end of the day (abstract impersonal analysis vs personalised consistency of mentality analysis). I still said Dorsey was a "good wagon" when I moved to redtea because I believed their playstyle to be intrinsically anti-town regardless of alignment.

Now, when a flashwagon emerged for veiled "this is a scumclaim" reasons, of course I was suspicious of that. And when you elaborated on your reasons I thought they were rubbish so of course I continued to be suspicious. In my mind the probability of Dorsey being scum was plummeting solely because the wagon looked so bad that I figured there had to be scum on it.

You were looking a lot like stubborn town who needed convincing on scum dorsey.
But with a town flip, it 100% looks like scum not wanting to take any part in a town elimination.

If you thought I was town when you thought Dorsey was flipping scum then in that world I obviously couldn't know Dorsey's alignment (because I'm town). So the fact that Dorsey instead flipped town actually shouldn't change the amount of town motivation you were observing. So to say "100%" is disingenuous because you have to admit that there is a chance I could still be "stubborn town".

Then you start off this day with a vote on me.

This all looks exactly like what someone who feels extremely guilty would do. Like immediately shift attention to the person who hammered on accident. Which to be honest, my scum game is really fucking good. I dont just lolhammer like that. In fact I'm willing to bet the number of times I've hammered as scum is like less than a fourth the amount I've hammered as town. I always see hammers as the person who is responsible and scum me does not want to take responsibility for shit.

See saying that if I'm guilty I'd push you is uninformative because you aren't combining it with analysis that if I'm town I then

wouldn't

push you. Since you did self meta I'll do self meta. Games where I'm town and someone badly hammers a townie D1, I remember following up D2 by pushing on that hammerer. It's a matter of principle, and it's simply been a strategy that works. I appreciate that if you don't tend to hammer as scum that may be a valid consideration that decreases the probability that you are scum but I am hard pressed to believe you regularly come across situations with quite as many good excuses for opportunism as this (last VC ten years ago, flashwagon builds up with little to no explicit rationale, micro game so you can claim you were unused to how few votes constitute an elim).

I see you as extremely scummy right now and if you are town, you need to realize that you aren't towny in my eyes and that doesn't make me scum. If we dont get a scum elimination today, tomorrow is elo so if you're town, you need to work with me.

I see you as extremely scummy too, and I fully accept that me not being towny in your eyes isn't a

sufficient

condition for you being scum. I never claimed it was, and my argument rests on more nuance than that.

I'll work with you on the off-chance you're town, though. If you're town I think both scum are in {NM, redtea, Kop} by pure PoE, while {scum!NM ^ scum!redtea} looks least likely out of the combinations because redtea was well enough positioned to vote you instead of bussing their partner, so it would be quite surprising that they chose the bus. So in the world where you are town voting Kop should always hit scum, because the only two remaining teams are {Kop, NM} and {Kop, redtea}.

[Deimos27]

Yesterday's "oh geez" accidental hammer needs to be held accountable and that is why I am voting Noraa. They need to be at least on the table for elimination today.

I might be tunneled but bruh wtf. You sound like whiny scum like whining WHY ISNT THIS TOWN MISLIMMABLE.

It's also a strange thing to say given only Norwee has expressed a TR on me as of today.

Why is it a strange thing to explain a vote? Are you likelier to be voted by others if they

don't

know why I'm voting you?

[Deimos27]

In my experience scum likes not to post in twilight when they haven't already established a recent presence in thread because it's just less cognitive load to wait when you know day will end soon anyway than to show up and fake more posts.

yeah but of course this doesn't apply to noraa ..... because she's mislim bait :3

well anyways I hope you're town

I'm glad you hope I'm town because I am in fact town.

I on the other hand wish you would put more effort into reading my posts because I feel like I have to keep correcting you on things that really shouldn't need correcting. Let's look at what I wrote here. "In my experience scum likes not to post in twilight

when they haven't already established a recent presence in thread

...". You were literally the hammer. Furthermore, scum!you would need to stick around to sell this idea that you are

unaware

of hammering.

[Deimos27]

Yesterday's "oh geez" accidental hammer needs to be held accountable and that is why I am voting Noraa. They need to be at least on the table for elimination today.

I agree Noraa can't live until elo.

Won't we be in elo tomorrow if we miselim? Are you that confident NM is scum to vote him here?

[Deimos27]

Yesterday's "oh geez" accidental hammer needs to be held accountable and that is why I am voting Noraa. They need to be at least on the table for elimination today.

I might be tunneled but bruh wtf. You sound like whiny scum like whining WHY ISNT THIS TOWN MISLIMMABLE.

It's also a strange thing to say given only Norwee has expressed a TR on me as of today.

Why is it a strange thing to explain a vote? Are you likelier to be voted by others if they

don't

know why I'm voting you?

I would also like to add that your two points here are inconsistent. Either you believe I can't genuinely be annoyed at town for not voting you (as per "it's a strange thing to say given...") or you believe I am genuinely annoyed at town for not voting you (as per "you sound like whiny scum ...").

[Deimos27]

Sorry for the ambiguity that was the explanation of why the Dorsey wagon was still good and applied to them, not to you. Also "anti-town" is a bit of an exaggeration but imo they definitely had the lowest town wincon +equity.

[Deimos27]

Lowest equity in terms of playstyle, I should clarify. Lowest "intrinsic" value as I put it. I of course thought you were likelier to be scum and therefore it was higher equity to lim you.

[Deimos27]

I would also like to add that your two points here are inconsistent. Either you believe I can't genuinely be annoyed at town for not voting you (as per "it's a strange thing to say given...") or you believe I am genuinely annoyed at town for not voting you (as per "you sound like whiny scum ...").

I wouldn't actually describe myself as "annoyed" ftr, except perhaps by the fact Noraa was shading my vote saying my first two posts were bad, without asking me to explain

why

I voted.

I think it's generally good hygiene for town to explain votes and when you shouldn't it's for a situational reason. I don't think the onus is on the explainer to justify their explanation by pointing to some strong public resistance to the wagon or be labelled "weird".

[Deimos27]

Sorry Norwee most of it was arguing with Noraa so depending on how established your views are on me vs them you may get away with skimming.

The most interesting part may have been my deduction at the very end of the multiquote post (the one with three spoilers) that town!Noraa -> scum!Kop but it relied on quite a few premisses:

1. town!Norwee = True
2. town!TA = True
3. not!(scum!redtea & scum!NM)
(4. town!Deimos = True)

Because (1), (2) and (4), along with the assumption town!Noraa = True reduces the PoE to both scum in {NM, redtea, Kop}. And redtea voting NM to E-2 here even though they had definitely positioned to easily be able to vote Noraa instead implies (3), which reduces the scumteam combinations to only {Kop, redtea} and {Kop, NM}.

This is interesting because it means fmpov we hit scum with very high probability by limming Noraa into Kop or Kop into Noraa.

pedit: sorry not been in the mood for joking really ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Deimos27]

I booked to eat dinner in (my college's) hall today but had a D&D session run on directly prior so I missed it and now I am hungry

[Deimos27]

What food should I acquire and how

[Deimos27]

Also I have a logic problem set due literally 4pm tomorrow and I'm not very far through and it means I'd feel guilty leaving my room instead of working even though I'm clearly procrastinating by playing mafia anyway

[Deimos27]

Fascinating. See I happen to agree that redtea is individually scummier than NM and Kop which is why I voted them D1. But if the only coherent scumteam left for them is Kop it makes more sense fmpov to lim Kop, it's just superior PoE.

[Deimos27]

But also my tinfoil hat is making me wonder if this could still be Noraa + redtea

[Deimos27]

I think I will UNVOTE: and simply enter the Kop and NM waiting room for now.

@TA, chime in on my argument for limming Kop at some point. The TL;DR was that if you tr me, Norwee, and Noraa it only takes the additional premiss of not!(scum!redtea & scum!NM) to guarantee Kop-scum.

[Deimos27]

Consider my vote still symbolically on Noraa.
With NM in the game E-2 is equivalent to E-1 and I'm not taking even the tiny risk of this getting hammered while I'm not looking until I've seen

content

from him and Kop.

[Deimos27]

Who is scum

[Deimos27]

I hope catboi counts that as still a prodge cause that's pretty unapologetic

[Deimos27]

You don't need to go with NM not being scum, you'd need to go with him not being scum with redtea.

[Deimos27]

In a pool of {redtea, Kop, NM} that's enough to guarantee Kop being scum. In a pool of {Noraa, redtea, Kop, NM) it guarantees at least 1 scum in {Noraa, Kop}

[Deimos27]

Niceee

[Deimos27]

I don't read the game like that unless absolutely forced to or scum are eliminated. With no content from NM it would be hard to eliminate him as partners with anyone.

Ok, I know I'm not in the majority by doing associatives without flips. Did you read the argument for why redtea's voting behaviour does imply they're not with NM though? I feel they should've voted Noraa instead of NM (back when they did so) if they were teammates with NM because they had been shading Noraa so much in the posts prior.

[Deimos27]

In a pool of {redtea, Kop, NM} that's enough to guarantee Kop being scum. In a pool of {Noraa, redtea, Kop, NM) it guarantees at least 1 scum in {Noraa, Kop}

I don't follow this conclusion.

List out the combinations of two player teams in each set and you will observe that after excluding NM + redtea the first set only comprises combinations with Kop in them and the second set only comprises combinations with Kop or Noraa in them.

[Deimos27]

I don't think hard distancing is the way scum act here when we're royally chasing our tails.

Yeah I also feel like even though Noraa definitely strikes me as someone who's capable of sacrificing redtea to try to carry the rest of the game I don't quite see why they would choose to do so when neither they nor redtea were actually looking exceptionally likely as elims.

I do struggle to take off that tin hat though and will be continuing to reflect on it

[Deimos27]

The crazy thing is that if I think redtea vs Noraa isn't distancing

nor

redtea voting NM

nor

vulture now voting redtea is distancing then I'm committed to the view that redtea is town and I don't feel like that's something I'm ready to accept at all.

[Deimos27]

Not something I'm ready to put confidence in anyway

[Deimos27]

If redtea is scum they must be scum with someone.

If I tr you and Norwee you're both excluded.

I'm excluded.

If Noraa, NM and Kop(Vulture) are all excluded for varying instances of "this can't be distancing" then there's no one left for a partner so redtea would be town.

[Deimos27]

What are these interactions of "not distancing"?

Currently we have both Noraa and vulture pushing redtea.

Redtea's vote on NM today was something I was advocating as "not distancing" but when compared to the other two pushes I just listed it does pale.

[Deimos27]

fair enough ig
VOTE: Not_Mafia so he can show up and do something so I can unvote him again

Ok ngl I did not remember it being framed like this.
Serves me right for not going back and reading.
That's really really really soft.

[Deimos27]

STD chime in

[Deimos27]

Ok thanks I don't think I'm actually gonna be able to synthesise all this new info immediately it's 8pm so I think I'ma chill for the rest of the evening and approach this tomorrow with a full night of sleep under my belt

[Deimos27]

In a pool of {redtea, Kop, NM} that's enough to guarantee Kop being scum. In a pool of {Noraa, redtea, Kop, NM) it guarantees at least 1 scum in {Noraa, Kop}

This logic is totally wack

I gave an objectively correct PoE. When the conditions I stated hold, those conclusions follow. For reasons that are frankly more about basic arithmetic than logic. Now if you disagree with whether the conditions hold that's another matter.

I don't read the game like that unless absolutely forced to or scum are eliminated. With no content from NM it would be hard to eliminate him as partners with anyone.

Ok, I know I'm not in the majority by doing associatives without flips. Did you read the argument for why redtea's voting behaviour does imply they're not with NM though? I feel they should've voted Noraa instead of NM (back when they did so) if they were teammates with NM because they had been shading Noraa so much in the posts prior.

By your logic, red tea is scum with everyone in the game that they haven't voted because they've shaded everyone.

My logic could well be really bad but it's impossible to tell from your posts because you never actually refute any of my logic, you are too busy refuting imaginary logic that you project onto me. Every time I have thoroughly dismantled your misreadings and misunderstandings. I will do so yet again.

The argument wasn't that you are scum with redtea because they didn't vote you despite shading you. That's not what I said. The argument made no conclusions about your alignment and was given in a context that was only discussing whether redtea can be scum

with NM

, and I was saying I didn't think he could be.

The argument was that redtea should vote someone who is town whom they are positioned to be able to vote

rather than

vote their scumpartner. The fact that they did so suggest the person they voted wasn't in fact their scumpartner.

If you actually engaged with

my

logic, you would have a good chance of changing my mind, like Vulture did, who actually presented an independent argument to think {redtea, NM/STD} shouldn't be excluded as a potential team.

Like the thing is your reads are so messed up. Like your elim pool isn't even an elim pool. You dont have a single good reason to scum read kop whereas I have a good reason to townread them (pending confirmation since theres a replacement who i dont know)

The logic is so fucked up I dont even know where to start picking it apart.

Kop had 4 posts, there was no way I was gonna exclude them from my PoE pool are you joking? To me he was null at best. Your read of him was all meta that I do not have experience with.

[Deimos27]

I’d be ok with voting Redtea and Vulture today i think.

Any particular reason why Vulture > STD?

[Deimos27]

I resonate with Vulture a lot I feel like

[Deimos27]

I'm pretty indecisive between who I want to elim in {Noraa, redtea, STD} I feel like each of these have their pros and their cons.

[Deimos27]

I guess I should say that my vote is no longer on Noraa even symbolically, I really am considering redtea or STD instead.

[Deimos27]

I guess I should say that my vote is no longer on Noraa even symbolically, I really am considering redtea or STD instead.

Why STD?

Slot is null for me and they can be partners with just about anyone so they're good for PoE.
I think I am starting to agree that we should just lim redtea today though. I sr'd them D1 and they've not done anything to change my mind, and I see it as fairly plausible that the scumpartner would be bussing.

What's

your

read of STD?

[Deimos27]

Noraa are you able/willing to articulate your reservations about Norwee?

[Deimos27]

I myself am not a big fan of associative clearing, since you can easily reach the wrong conclusion.

Though there is also the take that Redtea has so many scumreads on him already that it seems hard to believe he couldn’t be town.

This is funny

[Deimos27]

Yeah no I don't really see what you're saying Noraa I'm afraid.

[Deimos27]

Noraa was just answering my q I wouldn't get hung up about it
I do not see the opportunism

[Deimos27]

I will say that if Norwee is scum the obvious partner would be STD. Norwee's been very resistant to any pressure on NM slot on both days.
That is my sole contribution to future readers in the <1% of worlds where somehow Norwee associatives become relevant.

[Deimos27]

I agree

[Deimos27]

Mad props to TA/Vulture/STD for the carry

[Deimos27]

Props to Norwee for pulling the wool over my eyes all the way through days 1 and 2

[Deimos27]

Y'all should've done Noraa with me D2 :P

[Deimos27]

Y'all should've done Noraa with me D2

I guess I wussed out at the end myself by unvoting to reconsider

[Deimos27]

If i knew your true identity before then i would have killed you instead of Deimos.

Could've ended up playing out the same cause I would've gone for Noraa in that ELo every day of the week
Unless of course you think that you could've mislimmed me

[Deimos27]

Well yeah idk actually if you played it well maybe you could've convinced me off Noraa cause I was pretty pocketed

[Deimos27]

Noraa basically caught the second by confidently stating that post 110 comes from pr!Redtea

wtffff
and they were right

Fat read
That's too high iq for me

[Deimos27]

This was a pretty fun playerlist imo

[Deimos27]

pt s'il vous plait?

+1