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Post Post #7074 (isolation #800) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:32 am

Post by petapan »

the game's mechanics are unfair

although i feel like in a regular 5p you'd have ended up as the unhappy compromise or something
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Post Post #7076 (isolation #801) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:38 am

Post by petapan »

1. i'm fairly confident in my associative reads of her with flipped scum
2. her play doesn't really make sense from a scum perspective, where she's been doing nothing but positioning herself to lose the game for multiple phases, but does make significantly more sense from an uninformed perspective
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Post Post #7081 (isolation #802) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:47 am

Post by petapan »

i can go into more detail but don't really want to lay all my cards on the table unless it's necessary
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Post Post #7082 (isolation #803) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:49 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7080, Taly wrote:I don't think TW scum enters endgame to WK a doomed slot especially when it's such a different perspective he's taken from me in games.

He gains effectively nothing by this stance, no?
that

entirely makes sense from the perspective of someone who is informed but has absolutely no knowledge of the gamestate


i'm not saying it
has
to be the case, but

i don't think it's clearing and i think at this point you're just confirmation biasing every new piece of information to support your interpretation of the game
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Post Post #7083 (isolation #804) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:50 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7078, Ydrasse wrote:when i am mafia i am cool and smart when i am town i am incompetent
god same
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Post Post #7087 (isolation #805) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:00 am

Post by petapan »

it's significantly harder to keep burying a slot you know will flip town

not impossible for a good player, of course

but, see, for instance, event #4

harley entered the game and gave a woe is me both choices are town verdict, frankly far sooner than she should have been able to, because she knew what the outcome would be and was posturing to look good regardless of the outcome

as scum the inclination is to want to make yourself look "correct" about how the flip is going to go because you want your view of the game to seem credible. if you keep digging in when they've already resigned themselves to death you look foolish after and there is a worry people won't want to listen to you.


whereas even though i agreed infinity was probably flipping town i couldn't bring myself to say clear them if i die, i couldn't shake that lingering doubt i had in spite of everything. that's what having an uninformed perspective is.
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Post Post #7088 (isolation #806) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:03 am

Post by petapan »

if anything i feel like tw may have came on a bit
too
strong in that opening but that is my own subjective bias at play and, as i said


i don't read a lot into what people do and say in this phase


the answer is in the backlogs, it just has to be found
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Post Post #7090 (isolation #807) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:08 am

Post by petapan »

i'm just laying out an entire thesis this phase
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Post Post #7091 (isolation #808) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:09 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7089, Taly wrote:*hisses and claws at peta*
Image
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Post Post #7092 (isolation #809) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:46 am

Post by petapan »

for context here's worst repping into a game late as solo scum

here's a midgame town replacement

here's another midgame town replacement

presented without comment, draw your own conclusions if you like, he's clearly a competent player so any scum play is going to be mimicking his town play to an extent
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Post Post #7098 (isolation #810) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:51 am

Post by petapan »

i generally don't judge people off one game but you're clearly good at string words together (which is why i was reluctant to clear you)
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Post Post #7102 (isolation #811) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:45 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7100, Taly wrote:Peta do you have any reaction to the fact that Skitter was gunning for you to be nom'd and not Saber?
i don't really know that there's a strong takeaway from it? she didn't want to bus and knew town was getting nominated from our end and so preferred it to be town vs town. which is consistent with the play in past games i'm seeing.
In post 7101, Taly wrote:Or read my case on Ggy?
i have read it, yes. i understand what you are saying. i can see a narrative there. i'm just doing some research right now.
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Post Post #7135 (isolation #812) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:20 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7129, the worst wrote:the resolution quoted in this post does ring pretty heavy. did skitter go back to pushing ydrasse? this kind of fits within how scum!skitter approaches pocketing i think.
shh you're going to beat me to the punch on the skitter post i'm totally writing, in fact i've already finished it, it's just all in my head and doesn't exist as words anywhere
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Post Post #7140 (isolation #813) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:52 pm

Post by petapan »

i saw the text "i concede" and my heart skipped a beat
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Post Post #7141 (isolation #814) » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:44 pm

Post by petapan »

anyway, i get why someone could say the karate match between taly and skitter might look like distancing

neither is under danger at that point in time because it's not possible for either to get elim'd

but question is, if they set them up, and skitter's WIM drops to the point she gets replaced, and taly is supposed to be the carry

why does he try to save firebringer, who was decidedly doing nothing, rather than claim the pelt to look better off that fight? it doesn't make sense from a perspective of trying to endgame.

so that's why i doubt it

i mean, beyond the fact that he's already dead
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Post Post #7151 (isolation #815) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:20 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7142, the worst wrote:I'm also very wary of skitter's scum ability and deliberately spewing a lategame carry is a LOT more valuable than pocketing someone like ydrasse who is just a completely reasonable nightkill if town.
there are no nightkills
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Post Post #7152 (isolation #816) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:28 am

Post by petapan »

which is why i'm still here


but the point in particular is that you could claim the skitter interactions might be trying to distance from ydrasse

but that doesn't really fit with how she was treated by the other flipped scum, at all

and if ydrasse is scum she has actively done almost
nothing
to further her endgame potential and i don't think you can write it off as laziness. she's said stuff that i don't believe comes from an informed perspective, because it was too subtle for most people to notice and wouldn't have been likely to be seen positively.

but i don't particularly care to impress that upon you at this point in time

i've put in the work and made my judgment, if you want to argue otherwise make a case but i have no need for idly trying to chip away at the read
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Post Post #7153 (isolation #817) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:40 am

Post by petapan »

see e.g. popcorn where (as vulture) she tried to distance herself from enchant/lukewarm to set herself up to endgame: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=87343

very standard stuff

here she didn't really claim any pelts and was just kind of weak toward skitter

and the whole dynamic between her and skitter was off, it was atypical or scum distancing. most scum play it very vanilla, you push me, i push you back type stuff, e.g. the skitter/dunn interactions, which i eventually realized weren't clearing. here ydrasse basically doesn't punch back at skitter at all. were it a different player doing it i wouldn't consider that clearing but i don't think they'd be likely to fabricate that particular interaction
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Post Post #7154 (isolation #818) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:58 am

Post by petapan »

lol there was an unwnd post quoted in ydrasse's iso that kinda looks funnily tmi-ish
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Post Post #7155 (isolation #819) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:09 am

Post by petapan »

i guess it's time to write

the skidderpost



skitter is very obviously a skilled scum player, although she's had a rough go of it as scum this year outside of Deja Vu. (one of those is my fault (sorry skitter)). but we can look into her past games to see if she has tendencies toward her teammates and preferences on how to play. i want to look at stuff that is relatively recent, because i don't think old wallposty semi-lurky skitter is that relevant to decoding 2021-skitter, but also want something where she had something of a gameplan going, no unusual setups where bussing was strongly discouraged if not outright forbidden (e.g. Silent Star, Deja Vu). Deja Vu didn't even have daytalk so it's not like there was a ton of gameplanning, anyway.

so let's find something more conventional

Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game

teammates in this one: tris/saudade, xtoxm

choice quotes from the scum PT:

Spoiler:
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:Hey you two are starting to become viable lynch options btw
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:No, it's more like he's running out of people to sr and you're in his poe

I dont think he's been gunning for you

As it is his poe is like exactly tris, you, ari

Would kinda prefer if you lot didnt get lynched today if possible

If you think it's inevitable i guess lmk ?
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:my goal is to be the loudest voice around like day3 and to avoid bussing if i can do so, while makign sure i look good

if i had to pick between {bussing and looking good} or {keeping you lot alive but looking bad if you flip the next day} i think i'd rather the former because i can carry in that situation but would be under suspicion i'd rather avoid in the latter
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:like i'm assuming that out of us i'd need to carry/try to endgame so i kinda want to set myself up for that as best i can
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:
In post 43, skitter30 wrote:if i had to pick between {bussing and looking good} or {keeping you lot alive but looking bad if you flip the next day} i think i'd rather the former because i can carry in that situation but would be under suspicion i'd rather avoid in the latter
you ok with bussing in this situation?
not gratuitous, but if i think i can read it?
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:if you could just like ~not get lynched today~ that would be a big help, but like no stress :)

happy you're enjoying tm!

i think rc is willing to give a pass for today so i don't think you end up today's lynch
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:thanks, still kinda hate it in general, oddly enjoying it this game

just think it's kinda funny that i'm the current dc, have been dealing with insane paranoia for a year, and in the most competitive site event i have the best town players on site rn p much all pocketed and wanting to work with me and trying to get me to listen / support their reads etc

and all i really need to do rn is let rc 'talk' me into lynching ari for him or whatever

from my pov the rest of the day needs like maintenance but the hard work is p much done and i can coast a bit
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:Hey, @xtoxm

Dont do anything rash yet, but ari is at l-1 rn

How suicidal would it be for you to lolhammer?

Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:ya

i just work best as scum when i understand the gamestate and can control it into desirable outcomes
like as scum i can usually predict how the next two-three dayphases will play out at the very least in broad terms, barring something drastic like a hard guilty
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:Ya i dont think so at this point.

My energy for this has kinda evaporated upon seeing another 25 pages sprung up over night and i need the day to end soonish, i think
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:
In post 198, Xtoxm wrote:I'll think about this. The group hood thing changes a lot. I dont hate the gambit tying yourself to me, since i prefer doing something rather nothing , but it is high risk. Skitter has to solo endgame if it goes wrong.
fwiw i would much much much rather try to win this in 7way than 3way

my energy/motivation tends to flag as the game goes on as scum, especially if it's all on me
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:gamestates are my thing as scum

once i get a feel for the game i can usually tell how things are going to play out a day or two in advance and can predict how people will react to certain things

and what i can get away
and how town will think about x
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:and just thinking that this game is going to last several more weeks at least i find particularly demoralizing
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:like i already have 525 freaking posts and thinking of trying to maintain that is exhausting me

i'm well out of my established scumgame but i need to ~keep producing~ to be townread and it's demotivating
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:yes

demotivated/not high energy is historically a scumtell for me
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:
In post 297, Xtoxm wrote:hm
i dont think about it in terms of length/end point
i always do because i need to be fake and it's demotivating
and i am usually endgame which means that i'm there Until The Game Finally Ends
usually in like 3way

like i very rarely have energy for lylo
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:Saudade when i get online later rc is going to be pressuring me to vote u

How do u want me to handle this ... ahould i distance? Insist on a tr ?
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:I'm a little nervous that if i join math will decide it's a good idea too ?
And then you'll be lynched quite possibly, which i dont want to

Trajectory-wise i think i need to agree with rc and end up on you

I kinda wish shos or rc had just happened already
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:And yeah i'm going to need to commit to u i think
I dont even know
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:siding with rc over math might be a suboptimal move long-term
but i can wrangle math scumreading me in this gamestate a lot easier than i can against rc

like math is just being kinda silly and i can shut that down forever
if rc really gets going and was on the right track i would probably be unable to answer adequately and would freeze, which would in turn make him scumread me more and make it more obvious

like he was on target wrt me/sauade but i just kinda side-stepped it because i think addressing it would make things worse rather than better

also i don't thinks audade gets lynched rn, and i think math won't push saudade if i want it so
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:I dont know how to turn this off of saudade
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:idk how hard to go rn ....

i feel like if i announce: saudade is the best wagon it's going to happen
i feel like if i try to backoff i don't have anyone else to go on and if you flip first it's going to come back to bite me
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:Yeah i really dont want you to be lynched tho

But if it's inevitable i think i should go hard for the cred tomorrow ?
Like i dont want to make it more inevitable than it is if it really isnt
Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Normal Game: Scum PT
skitter30 wrote:yeah i'm trying to move there a bit but i think it's a little too late
bleh
i'm not super great at figuring out the line between distancing and bussing sometimes

well hey at least you're at of this shitshow of a game, right?


key takeaways:

- in this game she had to deal with two teammates who were both lurkerish and under heavy suspicion early. she urges them to not get themselves yeeted and displays a preference against bussing, but a willingness to do so as a last resort

- this is reflected in the game thread in this way: she defends tris against attacks early, says xtoxm's posts are bad and continually foses him but avoids actually voting him or even pushing him.

- asks her teammate if they'd be willing to surprise hammer on day 1

- tries to play by understanding the gamestate and controlling it, kind of a go with the flow mentality, take what town gives her, predict the opinions people will have

- although she's gotten good at, scum is still not skitter's preferred alignment. she prefers to keep her team with her rather than solo carry as she tends to lose energy in late game. "demotivated/not high energy is historically a scumtell for me" (i was aware of this)

([bane voice]
she merely adopted the dark, i was born in it
)

the sentiment about not wanting to solo carry is a consistent one she says in multiple games, she said the same in Deja Vu when i more or less predicted everything that would happen after night 1, i said she would always win in f4 but she preferred not to go there if possible

- feels like she gets stuck on Saudade and can't logically justify moving off him, is afraid the associatives will come back to bite her if she backs off him and he flips first, believes it's "inevitable" and so prefers to stay on for the credit

- after Saudade gets flipped, there's a lot of soft defending of Xtoxm, the things good scum players do, say his posts are bad but make excuses for him, lean on mechanics as a reason to clear him. does wagon him at one point but pulls off and finds an excuse to vote elsewhere while town talks themselves out of voting him

- tries to avoid answering things if someone is on the right track (this was similar to how she handled Morning Tweet in Deja Vu)



so this helps us build a general profile, will tend to distance from teammates but general preference is anti-bus, doesn't like having to solo carry, busses when she feels it's inevitable/can't justify not doing it. pretty standard play, really, not that there's anything wrong with that, standard scum play is good enough to win most games if you can post well.

i know i said this was going to be one post but i realize it's a bit long so i'll do a game by game breakdown in separate posts
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Post Post #7156 (isolation #820) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:11 am

Post by petapan »

you can see some similar patterns here, in that she'd call out dunn/saber here when they posted but not really push on them all that hard as compared to other targets
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Post Post #7157 (isolation #821) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:07 am

Post by petapan »

let's look through other games now to see if we can find some behavior patterns:

Micro 930: Neon Mafia

teammate: nomnomnom

choice quotes from the scum pt:

Spoiler:
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:ok skimming
i think i f i were town here i'd probably be scumreading you
how do you want me to read you in thread ?
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:it looks like it's dying down tho
i don't want to double down and spark it up again
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:gah you're actually like p scummy in your argument with luca and since it encompasses so much of what i missed i can't just pretend i didn't see it

idk how to give you a fake townread there, if i were town i'd be calling you out
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:yeah i wasn't sure how hard to go but i figured i would make room to start a dialogue and then we can go at it when i have more time
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:exactly
like i'm telegraphing where as of right now i think i'm going to end up but

and depending on how other people respond we'll see how hard i end up going down on scum!you
maybe mena will talk me into townreading you, who knows

but basically i'm trying to react as i would as town beacuse it makes things look more authentic
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
nomnomnom wrote:If I flip scum Ali is definitely confirmed town
I like this scumtheater we're doing right now, the distance is on
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:bleh i think i've reescalated instead of unescalated
idk if i should vote you back
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:gah fuck me i'm trying not to bus you but i don't know how to react to what you're saying rn lol

you mean nk luca, right?
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:sorry it's like the logical place for me to go at this point :/
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:k good :)
i just don't know where else to go rn, this is the natural trajectory for me rn
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:what the hell lol, that's great :)

i nominally still have a job so i'll be around later
ya think i ought to stay tunneled or back off
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:falfjaiofda


i think i botched how i interacted with you in like multiple ways
you're probably going down today
i think I'm fine till at least day3 in that case, especially since i can ride the bus, bop, nobody expects me to die, but now i need to carry
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:seriously what are the odds lol

ok i think I'm sticking to my guns on you
because you're def going down in the nearish future

i look good on bop
quag is a guaranteed mislynch after you flip

Ali, luca are nks

and then there's a bunch of lynchbait
i probably win this ?
Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Mafia PT)
skitter30 wrote:
In post 96, nomnomnom wrote:Oh well
Unlucky :P
But at least I learned plenty of things from this game that should become useful soon so not all's lost.
Last prayer that ali is actually gambitting and an actual protective claims here
I'm sorry this didn't go down better :/
i kinda backed myself into a corner and didn't have a good way to off-ramp so to speak

i wouldn't be surprised if Ali is lying or telling the truth so to speak, either way


key takeaways:

- skitter tried to distance from her teammate because she felt it was the most realistic view for her to have. ultimately this trapped her into bussing

- this wasn't a planned thing, it was a consequence of her teammate catching heat in the main thread and her reacting to it

- even so, she expressed regret and a desire to avoid flipping her teammate day 1, but was too nervous to back down

- the way their interactions ingame play out is like this:

skitter expresses disagreement with an early scumread nom pushes, calls it "bad"

says nom isnt out of scumrange when menalque expresses that nom's push might be too bad for him to make as scum

goes against nom in his arguments, accuses him of things like AtE, misrep, disagrees with the premises of his argument

hedges the read slightly by using meta as a crutch

choice quote from the game thread:

Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Game over!)
skitter30 wrote:ok i don't think a post-by-post is going to happen and i want to get caught up, so just key thoughts as i read through.

- while i think nom's part of the argument was p bad,
i think that at least some of the things luca is scumreading her for is nai
; the 1v1 i can see her doing as either alignment, and unfortunately some of the ate too
the stuff she brought up about me was weird tho
this is positioning herself to distance with a "nuanced" sort of read, sides against nom but tempers it by saying some of the points against him are NAI

- puts nom 1 slot above the bottom in her reads list (lol, lmao)

- continues to call out his posts

- preflip associates him with a townie

- tries to subtly make an excuse to not flip nom that day:

Subject: Micro 930: Neon Mafia (Game over!)
skitter30 wrote:
In post 714, Luca Blight wrote:I feel Nom/Quags could be S/S, but I also feel Nom could be white-knighting.

I’d feel happier with a Nom lynch today.
i guess i'm not sure why scum!nom decides to just make a thing about not voting the popular town!quag mislynch rn
in the current gamestate it's fairly popular and people are starting to want eod so i don't think it would be questioned that much
whereas by taking this route she's making a big stink that is getting pushback
and i don't know why she picks the harder route as scum here
- nom swings back and accuses skitter of being manipulative

- doesn't actually throw a vote on nom until significantly later in the day when she finds there's no good way to deescalate

- keeps arguing with nom, again and again, constant taking swipes at each other

- when the main driver of the nom wagon unvotes she tries to de-escalate, but gets stuck there when there's no alternate wagon and the player nom was pushing on claims bodyguard


so there's a willingness to bus day 1, but a reluctance at the same time. the bus happened because skitter's partner came under fire early and she felt obligated to join the wagon to save face, she wasn't the initiator of it
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Post Post #7158 (isolation #822) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:10 am

Post by petapan »

i can see a picture starting to come together
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Post Post #7159 (isolation #823) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:27 am

Post by petapan »

moving on. here's a game that i believe is very instructive.

Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps

teammate: The Limit Does Not Exist (Something_Smart + lilith2013)

Notably, this was a game where skitter was struggling, and was trying to position her teammate to go deep, rather than having her carry.

choice quotes from the scum pt:

Spoiler:
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:yeah that's what i was thinking too, so that might be in the cards as well

i'm good at the whole bussing thing, but some people (i.e. nom in particular) would be expecting it, i think

also i'd much much much rather have a 5way lylo than a 3way lylo
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:bleh i think i'm having an offgame
i literally look at this game and have no thoughts on anything anybody has posted

i feel like i'm forcing myself to post and generate content and i know it sounds kinda off
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i'm like reading posts and getting legit nothing out of them
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i think the natural conclusion of my posts would be to vote gl but i don't want to pick a fight with him just yet
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:meh i think i'm just going to leave it as-is and when someone informs me i'm being off and that i ought to be voting complain that i can't get into the game and ask them to real-time with me to help or something
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:yeah
i was thinking that if i voted there eve probably would actually hammer
but i'm pretty sure just leads to me getting pushed tomorrow so i didn't
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:and hey, if i really do have an offgame, you lot are in a great position to bus me if necessary :)
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i think i might try to start to pick a fight with you
because i think that one of us *is* going to get lynched if we don't find the traffic analyst, and i think it would be better to start laying in those seeds of not svs now
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:I think i kinda bungled this and i'm kinda expecting to get lynched at some point
I think what i ought to prioritize is leaving a bunch of messy associatives behind for people to dig through after the fact
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:fair enough
was trying to de-escalate at the end tho

fair warning that this might end up with me lynched tho
but you guys would basically be in the clear if that happens and i think you could carry
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:Actually i think we're good
If you guys drop it in a huff and say that i'm being unreasonable but that this isnt going anywhere and throw ur vote on eve or allo i think whichever one you pick will start feeling inevitable and that people like nom will just start calling for everyone to vote there just to end the day

(I think allo would be slightly better, eve is going yo be perpetual lynchbait)

Also kinda happy that i've dropped nom's interest in the game as a whole by picking inane fights and relitigating them ad nauseum at length, i think it's making the thread harder to read thru and that people like gl and acryo are also starting to feel this way and are instead pushing for 'easy' options instead of reading/responding yo all the walls we're generating
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:if we could get her lynched today, that would be great
(sorry nom!)

i feel like once i get ~into~ the townpool, i tend to stay there through inertia
getting there is the tricky part
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:yeah i didn't want to do this (sorry nom!)
but she started off on a bad foot, continued on bad footing, and she knows she's going to lose so uh i think this ends in her getting lynched at the end of the day

(i don't usually pick 1v1's as scum ...)
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:gl hard townbinning us is pretty great
and watching titus and auro bicker over how i am/am not obvtown is pretty funny too

also on the off chance i flip and this becomes relevant ... i've been cultivating the me/rex associatives for a while now

also i guess we don't need to try to lynch / remove the 'strong' players if they're townreading us that strongly
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i can locktown titus and just try to make us look super partner-y but i'm not sure if that will be counter-productive to tyring to lynch her
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i kinda think i'll have a hard time coming up with reasons to townread titus because ngl the way she's interacting with gl rn is kinda scummy

like right now if i obstinatnely tr her for meh reasons we'll look partnered
but afterwards i think it'll look wk'y
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:feel free to point out that i'm just hard-defending rex, that i'm treating Titus with kid-gloves and not really pushing her, just trying to be more skeptical at a distance, and that I'm trying to lay on the wifom
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:i'm going to see if i can get like eve lynched
but if, say, gl starts turning on me (i.e. he's inclined to vote me over Titus), just bus me hard

or if it looks like i'm inevitably going to get lynched
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:also maybe tone down the scum!me -> town!titus thing i think; you need to be able to push her upon my scumflip
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:ok, i think that if gl wants me lynched i probably get lynched today, so i would imagine that you lot probably just want to go hard on it
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:man i hope you lot can do something good with the oodles of wifom i'm leaving behidn
Subject: Mini 2136 | Mafia Hideout
skitter30 wrote:basically you win lylos by knowing exactly who's likely to vote for who and knowing where that mislynch vote is , and making sure it's more likely to happen than a townie placing a vote on you

titus will vote gl because she's been tunneled on him for three dayphases, he isn't dead yet, and nothing has happened throughout that whole time to make her think she's wrong.

we don't want to mess that dynamic up (i.e. by titus or gl getting lynched or dying) because we don't know how the survivor person will react once the other person is dead. titus will be forced to rethink the game if gl is dead and that may involve rethinking her townread on me. gl will push me upon a titus townflip

if they're both alive titus will ultimately vote gl in lylo so that's what we want to try to facilitate


key takeaways:

- again reiterates, would much rather have a 5 way than a 3 way

- cautious with who she votes/pushes for fear of reprisal

- says she's struggling to come up with things to say, offers to be bussed if she has an off game

- decides to pick a fight with TLDNE in order to distance. this manifests itself in-thread in a pretty typical way:

accuses Limit of strawmanning people

says they're shading a group of people you'd expect to be town based on setup mechanics

says they're following a double standard by jumping to conclusions when they're accusing someone else of doing so

says they're being disingenuous "and ate-y"

limit responds to this with classic aggression, dumps on her repeatedly with quote walls, really tries to bury skitter, the whole nine yards. skitter never actually votes limit but, limit drops a vote on skitter, only to back down when the town decides it does not want to kill skitter, does so by lilith saying she let the anger get the best of her

- says she's trying to build associatives between her and sausasaurusrex/titus in the event she does flip, again this is in a pretty basic fashion, she hard defends rex/titus and continually makes excuses for them

(probably should have read this game before i let cakez die)

- says to bus her hard if it looks like things are starting to turn against her

- starts planning and setting up for lylo in advance looking for who will vote who


so, again, this is the basic sort of expected play from scum who think they might go down and want to protect their partner. they pull back on the read town shows no interest in killing skitter and most people rule them out as being SvS, limit continually leaves themselves open to skitter being scum, expresses skepticism of her, but doesn't actually vote her. skitter questions limit back and expresses uncertainty on them, but waffles back and forth on the read and ends up back at town for a while, finally hedges on their alignment in ELO and expresses skepticism again
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Post Post #7160 (isolation #824) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:37 am

Post by petapan »

so, hypothetically, there's a world where skitter, feeling the heat in the Pink Room, starts to feel her enthusiasm for the game dropping and tells her teammate to bus her so they can endgame. it's not an implausible narrative at all. so, gammagooey's immediate case on skitter isn't really as clearing as i thought.

but is that the most likely scenario? i'm still not sure about that. there are other factors that have to be considered.
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Post Post #7164 (isolation #825) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:53 am

Post by petapan »

now, clearly, out of everyone alive, i would quite obviously be the best suited to endgame as last scum! however, there's a couple good reasons why it's not me:

- i could easily have avoided dunnstral being in the duel if i wanted to yet got him put there anyway with the last second hop; at any rate my progression on him was too messy for me to be scum, if i was aware of his alignment i'd start pushing against him sooner because he'd have no endgame potential

- skitter was very obviously struggling to come up with arguments against me when she had nominated me, this is because she knows i'm town and couldn't find real reasons to attack me. as her teammate i'd be more cognizant of giving her something to work with so we could actually have a strong 1v1, and i think she'd probably have an easier time finding something
real
to respond to me with

- saber/HQ blew it by spewing me town, scum don't get
that
mad at being bussed
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Post Post #7165 (isolation #826) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:55 am

Post by petapan »

anyway musical interlude time!

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Post Post #7166 (isolation #827) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:04 am

Post by petapan »

there's a couple older games i want to dig into when i get the chance, for some supporting data, but i think we have enough of a portrait to interpret skitter's actions in this game
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Post Post #7169 (isolation #828) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:09 am

Post by petapan »

Subject: Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia - Mafia PT
skitter30 wrote:Ya

Hmm kinda wondering if i should go for a hard defense, t'would be ant-meta

Dunn is eventually gonna get flipped now
looool

on the one hand, a complicating factor

on the other hand, this was well after this game started and shortly before she got replaced in this one
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Post Post #7170 (isolation #829) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:12 am

Post by petapan »

Subject: Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia - Mafia PT
Venus Fly Trap wrote::doffs jester hat:

gonna push you a bit and loudly complain i think you're scum but when your wagon fails to materialize i'm gonna hop onto emmi while complaining about how you lot are getting away with it
still trying to stay away from the D1 bus though
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Post Post #7171 (isolation #830) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:18 am

Post by petapan »

Subject: Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia (Game Over)
Venus Fly Trap wrote:i've got dnd momentarily but i'll be around some more this afternoon

gonna start by voting here:
VOTE: mm/bears

the other person i'd want to vote is emmi

~ skitter
Subject: Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia (Game Over)
Cabd wrote:
Vote Count 1-9


Samus, return to the correct route immediately.


Dunnstral (2): E. M. M. I., Milk & Mocha
Milk & Mocha
(2):
Dunnstral
,
Venus Fly Trap

Wisdom (2): ssbm_Kyouko, MUSHSHAGANA
ssbm_Kyouko (1): Wisdom
Venus Fly Trap (1): Towelie
Gamma Emerald (1); StrangeMatter
MUSHSHAGANA (1): Critter
E. M. M. I. (1): Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (2): Something_Smart, Lady Lambdadelta

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate a flavor.

Current Deadline: (expired on 2021-11-02 20:02:57)
show this vote count to prism to make her die instantly
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Post Post #7172 (isolation #831) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:20 am

Post by petapan »

Subject: Mini 2247: Mountain Dew Mafia (Game Over)
Venus Fly Trap wrote:
In post 799, Gamma Emerald wrote:VOTE: EMMI
I wanna try this for a bit.
i think you should have stayed on bears but this is a decent alternative
classic tmi scumbuddy read. useful to note.
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Post Post #7173 (isolation #832) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:24 am

Post by petapan »

rereading and losing my mind now
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Post Post #7175 (isolation #833) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:28 am

Post by petapan »

tactically, shit makes no sense for skitter to have flipped a vote on galron on day 1. none. totally out of character.

interactions-wise, my god this is more spewy than i remember
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Post Post #7176 (isolation #834) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:31 am

Post by petapan »

In post 2796, skitter30 wrote:
In post 2791, Taly wrote:
skitter
, who should
unwnd
duel with?
Dwlee
fuck me
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Post Post #7177 (isolation #835) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:33 am

Post by petapan »

In post 3186, unwnd wrote:Basically don't think Skitter scum defends Cakez the way she has if Cakez is scum and I still think he is so yeah.
this was the quote from ydrasse's iso and it looks informed
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Post Post #7178 (isolation #836) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:36 am

Post by petapan »

saber asking gammagooey "what's your read on me?" is kind of cringe
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Post Post #7182 (isolation #837) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:38 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7175, petapan wrote:tactically, shit makes no sense for skitter to have flipped a vote on galron on day 1. none. totally out of character.
but, of course, the chair wasn't a regular execution. scum probably knew it was a kingmaker. they might not have wanted town in that spot.

but why the scum pile-on on gamma emerald then
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Post Post #7183 (isolation #838) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:39 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7179, Ydrasse wrote:plaese don't make me think more and let me just have minimal brain power in this game
sorry this is the patented lategame paranoia spiral
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Post Post #7185 (isolation #839) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:43 am

Post by petapan »

skitt's initial vote on GE is pretty awful. but blah. that may be interpreting a limited sample
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Post Post #7186 (isolation #840) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:44 am

Post by petapan »

In post 2517, skitter30 wrote:i think it's possible i may be slightly tunneled on the galron slot and want to give unwnd a bit more space rn

in the meantime
VOTE: dwlee
this post is killing me
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Post Post #7187 (isolation #841) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:44 am

Post by petapan »

fucking lol if harley just fucking tmi'd her whole team while going down, gross
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Post Post #7193 (isolation #842) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:48 am

Post by petapan »

In post 1234, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1110, Galron wrote:I'm caught up enough I think. I just haven't found anything to really dig into. The mechanics seem the most interesting thing, but I don't think it's really the right time to talk about that, at least until we have the first challenge under our belts. My reads are awful, and I have this impression that no one's done or said anything really noteworthy. Like in Radio Buzz by this time we had several 1v1s or 1v1v1s. I see a few here, but they're junior varsity spats. I'm seeing what I think is a frustrated Gamma leading the pack, but I'm not sure why he's so scum read, which makes me think I need to go back and read the beginning of the game again, which I started doing. I do kind of agree with whomever said that thing about Ceph being similar to RB, and I think I need more than just that feeling to scum read him I think. I dunno, I'm just missing a ground hold here.
You feel very weird and like muted as compared to radio buzz. There iirc u also kinda missed fhe beginning of the game but ur contributions were p quickly p townie. Idk if the difference here is that u need more time to get into the swing pf things, or if ur just scum. Dunno how to differentiate between those universes just yet

Is there anything i can do to help you get into the game?
fhgdhjfgkfgjfdhfjgdhfjdfj
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Post Post #7198 (isolation #843) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:57 am

Post by petapan »

that was kind of the thing yeah

like in a hypothetical world gamma emerald starting a dueling SVS wagon would be absolutely disastrous for the chair and it would explain why skitt tried to spring a wagon on galron when GE was E-1

but is that almost too bold? she seems averse to actually being caught off a teammate
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Post Post #7199 (isolation #844) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:00 am

Post by petapan »

on reread, preflip, i'm back to it being whiteknighty
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Post Post #7201 (isolation #845) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:07 am

Post by petapan »

possible she just didn't anticipate the momentum on galron? who knows. galron's posting was interminably bad

in an all-vanilla setup there's also less risk of being caught out by PRs although scum wouldn't know how many kills they'd have
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Post Post #7203 (isolation #846) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:09 am

Post by petapan »

In post 4561, Harley Quinn wrote:
In post 4547, SirCakez wrote:
In post 4545, Harley Quinn wrote:
In post 4487, Gammagooey wrote:Hey Harley, have anyone you definitely want to leave out from crossing at the moment?
Gypyx I think.

I’m also having doubts on Cakez and Skitter.
this is definitely OMGUS lmao
Maybe so but I think at least one scum is pushing me
, so I’m not tr anyone who does that unless I have other reasons to think they’re town.
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Post Post #7205 (isolation #847) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:12 am

Post by petapan »

admittedly she did a good job swinging gammagooey from a town read to calling him scum later

but it really feels like she did just TMI her entire team like some bush league crap

you can look into this without the emotional posts i think
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Post Post #7208 (isolation #848) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:14 am

Post by petapan »

she was barking at me for a while, where with him it was...this
In post 5045, Harley Quinn wrote:
In post 5038, Gammagooey wrote:I finished rereeading through some stuff to try to read Ydrasse and Gypyx better and it was mostly not helpful. I do think I should downgrade Gyoyx/Prism from strong town to regular town read b/c most of my read came from the Prism slot and just Gypyx *efforting* but he still comes across as town to me

Ydrasse wasn't around much for pages like 50-70, kinda helped start the Galron wagon and then wasn't around for a while but also those pages were like a single real-life day so I don't think it's anything to really hold against her. Ydrasse also wasn't around a ton in blue PT which is slightly eh but most of her content there was pushing Toog which I can't really fault either.

My perfect left behind-team atm is prob skitter/Saber/Ydrasse/whoever Ydrasse wants to take down with her but I'm much more concerned with just getting skitter/saber dead atm

If Taly gets within hammer range of sending across I'll do it even though I want him to go later, but also I want to be slamming through the first 4 people once we've got the 1st person crossing.
VOTE: petapan for now

oh hey more posts. I would still push dwlee through too and be perfectly happy about it, so if more votes go in that direction I'll jump back on dwlee wagon. Gemerald is also fine would vote to cross

oh and LAST THING I probably don't have much time to post until Saturday evening except for tomorrow morning and pop-ins to change my vote as a heads-up.
Okay, lost my initial tr on this slot. Ydrasse should never be left behind.
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Post Post #7211 (isolation #849) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:15 am

Post by petapan »

In post 5051, Harley Quinn wrote:
In post 5046, Taly wrote:You townread
Gammagooey
?
I did but his interactions with Skitter looked weird to me, something was off there and then him wanting to leave Ydrasse behind kind of sealed it for me. I don’t like the way he keeps referring to her (Skitter’s) slot. I’m getting possible buddy vibes from their posts. When he sr her, she didn’t get upset about it and he keeps saying he wants to leave her behind but only talks about wanting me dead. That doesn’t sound like town making a good faith sorting of me. Those kind of posts generally come from scum trying to push a miselim. I just don’t buy it.
and...this
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Post Post #7213 (isolation #850) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:17 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7210, Ydrasse wrote:Petapan you aren't scum making a fool of me are you.
i feel like i'd have more accurate reads as scum

which is probably why it's gammagooey: he's occupying the position i would be occupying as scum
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Post Post #7214 (isolation #851) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:18 am

Post by petapan »

i'd be like, running on 10x overkill this game
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Post Post #7217 (isolation #852) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:22 am

Post by petapan »

which is not to say that extensive effortposting is out of my range, it's just

i don't dig this deep when i have a position of victory already secured
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Post Post #7220 (isolation #853) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:26 am

Post by petapan »

i think uhh

the saber chainsaw defending dunn by attacking gemerald would also be kind of out of pocket
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Post Post #7221 (isolation #854) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:27 am

Post by petapan »

also i got the sense that gammagooey doesn't actually give a shit about anything i'm posting and isn't really reading it to evaluate it


would be really funny if there was a reason for not caring
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Post Post #7222 (isolation #855) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:27 am

Post by petapan »

really really funny if his absolutely atrocious read on gamma emerald is what tripped him up
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Post Post #7223 (isolation #856) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:31 am

Post by petapan »

like mothfucker how do you sit there as town and still do "derp i think it's just taly" this far into the day phase and not evaluate for contingencies
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Post Post #7224 (isolation #857) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:31 am

Post by petapan »

do you even care about solving the game
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Post Post #7226 (isolation #858) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:35 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7223, petapan wrote:like mothfucker how do you sit there as town and still do "derp i think it's just taly" this far into the day phase and not evaluate for contingencies
because you should be playing like it isn't taly, that degree of laziness is inexcusable from town but makes sense if you just ran out of people to bus


we might have been really close to outright losing the game if cakez hadn't sacrificed for ydrasse

on me for throwing in heaven i guess
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Post Post #7227 (isolation #859) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:37 am

Post by petapan »

oh my god ydrasse look at #25 from unwnd in the blue room

the last line
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Post Post #7228 (isolation #860) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:37 am

Post by petapan »

i'm glad we had like 5 days and just got inadvertently slowrolled because there really is a mountain of material to work with
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Post Post #7231 (isolation #861) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:40 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7229, the worst wrote:
In post 7152, petapan wrote:i've put in the work and made my judgment, if you want to argue otherwise make a case but i have no need for idly trying to chip away at the read
don't think this is a fair characterisation of what I'm doing here.
lol you might wanna

join us in the present
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Post Post #7233 (isolation #862) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:41 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7230, Gammagooey wrote:
petapan wrote:also i got the sense that gammagooey doesn't actually give a shit about anything i'm posting and isn't really reading it to evaluate it

would be really funny if there was a reason for not caring
literally everyone except me is basically working on the assumption that taly is going to flip town at this point and I think that's a wrong assumption, but it's going to be proven one way or another regardless of what I do at this point

I'm very capable of going over and discussing things after the flip. I'm here to have fun playing mafia and no offense but going through literal pages of quote-walls aint it
i'm gonna turbo you and laugh about it
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Post Post #7236 (isolation #863) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:42 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7151, petapan wrote:
In post 7142, the worst wrote:I'm also very wary of skitter's scum ability and deliberately spewing a lategame carry is a LOT more valuable than pocketing someone like ydrasse who is just a completely reasonable nightkill if town.
there are no nightkills
me 6 hours ago: buhh worst fake dumbtell?????
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Post Post #7237 (isolation #864) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:44 am

Post by petapan »

the fucking parenthetical on the blue room skitter read in #169
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Post Post #7238 (isolation #865) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:45 am

Post by petapan »

this is gonna be it, the redemption of cakez
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Post Post #7240 (isolation #866) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:51 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7230, Gammagooey wrote:
petapan wrote:also i got the sense that gammagooey doesn't actually give a shit about anything i'm posting and isn't really reading it to evaluate it

would be really funny if there was a reason for not caring
literally everyone except me is basically working on the assumption that taly is going to flip town at this point and I think that's a wrong assumption, but it's going to be proven one way or another regardless of what I do at this point

I'm very capable of going over and discussing things after the flip. I'm here to have fun playing mafia and no offense but going through literal pages of quote-walls aint it
you can just post "i don't care about solving the game" you know
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Post Post #7242 (isolation #867) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:53 am

Post by petapan »

In post 2108, Saber wrote:
In post 2025, petapan wrote:
In post 1963, Galron wrote:
In post 1938, petapan wrote:
In post 1937, ulyana wrote:
In post 1935, petapan wrote:i hope you're town so i don't get accused of that post being scum theater
you think dwlee about to be flipped or…?
no just

down the line


anyway i got what i wanted out of this phase and i'm ready to move on, was just typing some thoughts up
This sounds like you knew this phase was coming.
shut the fuck up wolf
Why are you mad at him if you think he's a stagehand doing his job?
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Post Post #7244 (isolation #868) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:59 am

Post by petapan »

see theres a hypothetical world where GE was obviously leaning on skitter to be the carry and take him to endgame and that got mucked up


buuuuut unwnd's posts just bleed being informed
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Post Post #7245 (isolation #869) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:59 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7243, the worst wrote:Sharon van Etten & Angel Olsen are my scumbuddies irl.
nice
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Post Post #7246 (isolation #870) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:02 am

Post by petapan »

oh right i'm a DUMBASS

skitter trying to dismantle the wagon on gamma can make sense from a teamed perspective but if at that moment gamma is positioned toward scumreading dunn she obviously wants to avoid that as it's possible he executes a teammate and spews himself town where instead she can pull off a bus on a guy who's posting really terribly and snatch the glory for herself
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Post Post #7249 (isolation #871) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:08 am

Post by petapan »

admittedly gamma emerald did a similar thing with sheeping my bad read on skitter. but. unwnd's is so much spewier
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Post Post #7252 (isolation #872) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:09 am

Post by petapan »

ydrasse gonna get that "luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing" game
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Post Post #7253 (isolation #873) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:09 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7250, Ydrasse wrote:@peta i read the posts you pointed out but the medicine i took wore off so my energy fades. consider my response to a sage nod
its like, not even that deep but holy crap ahaha
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Post Post #7257 (isolation #874) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:11 am

Post by petapan »

In post 5486, Tamora's Angel wrote:
Mod: You still have HQ in the list to get across.


Gamma, I feel as if you aren't giving me a chance. It's like pulling teeth to get any response from you. I need you specifically because I feel the game is following your lead and not giving anyone in your pool a chance. This is very problematic given the way the first thirty pages played out.

For instance, gooey is clearly scum coasting. That slot (Galron) was already saved once. Yet Gooey isn't in your pool. Scum don't even have to defend him.


Skitter slot was already spewed town, yet you have a blanket conculsion he should die.

Ulyrana has been slanking which exactly matches Toog's prediction and Toog practically called out Dunn but didn't mention his name. Now that the mood is set, Ulyrana posts because there is a consensus to sheep.

This game has largely gone wrong in the spam. Let's slow it down and reevaluate.

Taly isn't the worst choice to go across next though.

i didn't even bother opening the TA iso because i assumed titus was just antispewing when she entered the game

but lmao
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Post Post #7266 (isolation #875) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:21 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7260, Ydrasse wrote:admittedly though

it's harder for me to conceptualize unwnd as scum given the game that i was scum with him (and peta too. thank you alt slip)

he felt very different int hat one
i think having an informed perspective is very different and it likely mucked with me too

i remember he turned on the babyrage AtE to win after you were out of the game then but i barely read his posts, i didn't have a frame of reference

posts here were...better, in some sense

but the skitt/saber interactions r bad
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Post Post #7270 (isolation #876) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:24 am

Post by petapan »

In post 5316, Tamora's Angel wrote:Based on reading the mod ISO, I'm wondering why Gooey slot hasn't been dead. Scum saved Galron (if I am understanding correctly).

Was Gamma nominated because of feeling he was town at the time or scum?

I want to look at Pooky's reads given the early sabotage.

Galron's and Ydrasse's self-voting in the duel event struck me as odd.

What were the final votes in Peta v Infinity?
In post 5330, Tamora's Angel wrote:At page 15, 313 lowers my Prism read. Galron entrance at 374 scummy.
In post 5333, Tamora's Angel wrote:At page 30 taking a break.

Gamma and Dwlee spewed town.
Lean town Skitter and Prism
Null town Cakez
Null scum Ulyrana.
Lean scum Galron, Ydrasse.
i had multiquoted these but they got lost somehow until i started a new post

that scumread on the slot persisting across 2 players (while the skitt read was obviously tactically changed) ain't great
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Post Post #7277 (isolation #877) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:58 pm

Post by petapan »

pink room mostly got a raw deal

but like yknow

i had 2/3 and the stupid events made us put up 4 people
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Post Post #7278 (isolation #878) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:04 pm

Post by petapan »

taly i want to describe this for you, since you're the only one who cannot see it


in the blue room unwnd posted a read list for each room

typical stuff, just listing everyone's name

except

for the pink room, under the category section "null void"

he posts skitter (I guess)

he adds the parenthetical to exactly one person


i'm howling
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Post Post #7279 (isolation #879) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:09 pm

Post by petapan »

the funny thing is i only came into the split decision body slamming saber so hard because i was leeching unwnd's read

did any town besides infinity suspect saber prior to that event? just checked and ulyana seems to have turned on her in the pink room but were unable to get it together for a vote
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Post Post #7280 (isolation #880) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:37 pm

Post by petapan »

imagine replacing into a game and not spewing your entire team???
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Post Post #7281 (isolation #881) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:48 pm

Post by petapan »

gamma emerad suspected saber at one point but his reads were all over the place

probs should have seen that as a towntell

personal dispute aside i wasn't kidding when i said he played a very good game, probably better than mine even
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Post Post #7282 (isolation #882) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:49 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 1693, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:its kind of weird Galron doesn't notice Saber is like his biggest advocate for the last 15 pages or so lol
In post 1698, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:It's really hard to miss how Saber is like waving a giant neon sign that says "kill gamma, kill gamma"

she's practically glowing
holy fucking shit pooky
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Post Post #7283 (isolation #883) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:08 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 2118, skitter30 wrote:
In post 2106, Saber wrote:Most vocal stagehand or suspicions from Pooky I can see are on Gamma, Dunnstral, and petapan. He also supported a S-S theory for the two leading wagons.
just gonna point out that even though i townread gamma at this point we technically we haven't really seen anything that disproves s/s

if they were actually svs wagons picking your partner and then sabotaging the flip is a great way to make you look unaligned in that situation
i thought this post was spewing gamma with the hedge there

but no

it was spewing
galron


i'm such an idiot
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Post Post #7284 (isolation #884) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:14 pm

Post by petapan »

i would like to update my reason i am town:

me going after saber while skitter nominated me when we were trying to kill off infinity, the literal one town player alive in the game who scumread saber, would be gamethrow levels of bad
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Post Post #7285 (isolation #885) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:18 pm

Post by petapan »

VOTE: NAY

this is my symbolic protest vote
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Post Post #7287 (isolation #886) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:50 pm

Post by petapan »

are you going to tell me THAT hurt your feelings
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Post Post #7288 (isolation #887) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:53 pm

Post by petapan »

my vote influences quite literally nothing


if you want to have a meltdown because i called you scum be my guest though?
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Post Post #7289 (isolation #888) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:58 pm

Post by petapan »

i spend like 80 posts calling you spewed scum and accused you of not being caring about solving the game, which would
understandably
be pretty annoying

and me changing my vote to nay, a functionally useless move

makes me a douchebag???


seems a bit over the top?
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Post Post #7291 (isolation #889) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:08 pm

Post by petapan »

i have been dismissing everything you said for quite some time and saying taly quite likely flips town. the vote changes nothing at all, his elimination is still assured

if i think you are scum of course i don't care what your case on someone else is

i made a bunch of posts and you whinged about how you don't want to deal with the wallposting and provided no commentary because you didn't care to provide input

so don't come crying to me about disrespect
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Post Post #7292 (isolation #890) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:09 pm

Post by petapan »

you know who else had a disproportionately emotional reaction to something trivial?
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Post Post #7293 (isolation #891) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Post by petapan »

there were plenty of posts where you could have said, "okay, tone it down"

me threatening to turbo you = whatever

but a useless vote change = being a huge dick ???

explain how this is not outing
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Post Post #7294 (isolation #892) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:17 pm

Post by petapan »

i have been actively seeking engagement for days and you blew me off


and now YOU have the audacity to whine to ME about being dismissive?
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Post Post #7296 (isolation #893) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:30 pm

Post by petapan »

a functionally useless "i think this person is flipping town" vote is not disrespect

you have a totally unhinged view of the game if you believe that

but as it is i'm choosing to interpret this as a flailing attempt at manipulation
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Post Post #7297 (isolation #894) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:34 pm

Post by petapan »

and to be clear, entirely fair play for you to try it on me

but i'm absolutely not going to be guilt tripped


especially not when you've played in such an absurdly disrespectful fashion
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Post Post #7298 (isolation #895) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:47 pm

Post by petapan »

this is a game where multiple scum aligned players have attempted to emotionally blackmail me for correctly accusing them of being scum

do you think i don't have feelings about that?
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Post Post #7299 (isolation #896) » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:19 pm

Post by petapan »

man i'm actually fucking mad now that you chose to pull that card

you saw the shit i got put through this game and you're calling me a douchebag for how
I
play

do you have any idea how poorly that comes across?


maybe this is some massive failure of perspective on my part i fail to see how
a vote that does nothing but signifies i think taly is likely to flip town
was worthy of this vitriol from you

i'm going to pull myself away from this after this

but the vast majority of players in this game i have nothing but respect for and even if i have played aggressively i have tried to treat them fairly


i sincerely hope this latest turn from you is a scum tactic to try to damage my read on you
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Post Post #7311 (isolation #897) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:46 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7305, Gammagooey wrote:
petapan wrote:man i'm actually fucking mad now that you chose to pull that card

you saw the shit i got put through this game and you're calling me a douchebag for how
I
play

do you have any idea how poorly that comes across?
Maybe you can read what I said back post-game, still probably being angry, and think about the fact that I meant it. It probably is an overreaction to that post in particular, but I do fucking mean it.

This is not me being angry at you for calling me scum, this is the equivalent of me at a bar pulling you aside and asking you why you're acting this way to everyone there.

To be diplomatic, I'll say that I also would prefer not to play with Harley Quinn again. But you're treating people like mafia/scum first instead of showing some damn empathy and trying to understand where other players are coming from as PEOPLE, not as their alignment, and it's fucking stupid.

I would rather play a 50 page game that was light and jokey and fun in but lost than deal with a game that was 250/300+ pages and win. Maybe you've noticed, but today has largely stopped being fun for me. I would have been super happy to talk to you or Gemerald or even Taly in the Heaven PT about who ya'll were suspecting then and take that into account when I got to do *ruler stuff*, but instead it was 3 pages long with me being the only person who actually talked about who potential scum in the PT could be, and today has been every single player in the game dismissing my strongest read because they're probably going to die in the event already. And now there's what, a dozen pages or so of me feeling ignored and generally shat on for my choice after the fact instead.

I can deal with that, but let me tell you, it's not fun. I'm obv not thrilled about Taly/you thinking I'm scum, but it's a mafia game, if you can't deal with that you shouldn't play mafia.

I've read over your quotewall posts peta, and I've responded to the pieces I thought I could add meaningingfully to. You've posted I think about or over TWO HUNDRED times since the start of this event with absolute fucking walls of quotes that I've already read through earlier in the game. I do not want to spend hours of my life that could be spent actually enjoying myself going through them further and dissecting the individual points where I think you're being reasonable and the other points I don't agree with and have no/little change in either the game-state or in my opinions on the remaining players. If you have/had concise parts that you wanted my comments in particular on then I can do that, as I've said to The Worst already. If not, then say whatever you want people to read, let the worst catch up and share any opinions he wants to air, and then let's move on. I offered to replace into this game to try to make the game better and enjoy the events - both of those goals are largely not happening at this point, I'm not going to participate in the game to a level anywhere close to yours when it's not fun to play in.

And finally, MAYBE you've also noticed that I've tried to keep everything light and tried to be diplomatic with people even when I think they're scum and/or when they're scumreading me. I don't want to deal with other people's emotional outbursts, I don't particularly like getting overly emotional about the game myself. All I fucking want is an game where people can enjoy talking to each other and have fun and consider each others opinions EVEN if they think the other person is scum, and you've been the cause of three replacements so far. (maybe like...2.2 if we factor in how likely HQ was going to replace out in that situation even with another randomized playerlist) Don't call people a "fucking slimeball" if you're going to get legitimately angry when someone says you're acting like a douchebag. I'm tired of the game, I'm tired of you expecting me to be as invested in it as much as you given the game-state, and I'm tired of your behavior this game making it less fun for multiple people. Just treat people better in future games, and if/when you do wind up elim'ing me or the game ends I'd rather you consider why I felt this way instead of just complaining about my shitty play.
cool
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Post Post #7313 (isolation #898) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:50 am

Post by petapan »

i want to type a response to that that is diplomatic and respectful, but i don't think i can. i am livid. you have been absurdly insulting to me just now and it is incredibly disappointing. anything i want to say right now is incredibly harsh, so i'll just step away for now.
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Post Post #7316 (isolation #899) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:03 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7300, Taly wrote:Yeah I'm sorry you're getting the brunt of the AtE this game
Peta
and I say this as someone who has contributed

Just ignore
Ggy
i mean even with you i was mostly just bewildered/frustrated because like, i wanted you to be able to talk and you were just weird about it
In post 7303, Taly wrote:
Peta
, I respect the fact that we have a very hot/cold dynamic this game because it feels so raw.
it's certainly been a ride

sorry if i inadvertently came off as brusque/dismissive toward you, it's...

we have different ways of thinking and there was a
lot
of evidence to go through, i was hung up on some not so good reasons. which often happens. but i did, eventually, go back and reread and check everything. and i think just by being able to have some conversation we worked things out? theres always the stress of endgames because people are going to have differing perspectives they feel strongly about but i think weve been working okay
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Post Post #7317 (isolation #900) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:05 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7310, Taly wrote:No, I disagree with both the assertion that the Pink PT had a net positive view of me or the idea that everyone in the PT was absolutely set on Saber-scum outside of Infinity who voteparked throughout the PT.

Skitter entered the Pink PT with THIS being her hierarchy of least wanting to vote to MOST.
Gamma --> Cakez --> Ydrasse --> Gypyx --> Saber --> peta --> UNWND

And what did she do with this?

She contested my Ydrasse-case, said she wouldn't vote Cakez despite AGREEING that I believed Cakez/unwnd was T/S, and she voted Peta mid-way into the PT and didn't move her vote at all.

It reads perfectly like she TMI'd you and Saber.
yeah uh wow lmao

i know she was putting her preference at me and those two but i didn't know it was THAT order
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Post Post #7321 (isolation #901) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:14 am

Post by petapan »

my big hangup was knowing that she wouldn't WANT to just throw her whole team under the bus and prefers to win earlier rather than later. a day 1 hardbus would have been shocking and surprising based on that.

but reviewing the history in old games and the records in this game tells a very different story.
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Post Post #7322 (isolation #902) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:17 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7318, Taly wrote:So truly Peta, I feel I was largely the source of our conflict because I couldn't reconcile my ego and the gamestate. And I am sorry for overstepping your boundaries here.
its ok

its understandable

getting mislimmed sucks and the blame falls partly on me for having been lazy in event eight (which very nearly could have cost the game)

but its worth understanding that the whole structure of this game has been unfair by design and that has led us into some objectionable kills
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Post Post #7323 (isolation #903) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:17 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7320, Ydrasse wrote:peppermint anyone? can i interest anyone in a peppermint?
i'll take one
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Post Post #7327 (isolation #904) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:27 am

Post by petapan »

like, toog and gypyx were both blatantly town, as i have said before. they basically went because they wouldn't complain as loudly as everyone else. they deserved better. even if i found toogeloo largely frustrating for how he played the early game, i did get there in the end on him. ulyana was also blatantly town but because of how things are someone had to be sent to hell. we all had our blinders on at the time, i guess it was possible to get the answer but without the TA flip it was hard.

cakez was my own bias, i let associatives (and his fade from the game) bias me. if i had done the metadive i did this phase then i keep him as locktown. a mistake but hopefully an understandable one. i think he'll be redeemed in the end, though. hopefully i do right by him.

infinity was just me playing like crap and i regret that from the bottom of my heart. they deserved better.
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Post Post #7328 (isolation #905) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:36 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7319, Taly wrote:
In post 7317, petapan wrote:
In post 7310, Taly wrote:No, I disagree with both the assertion that the Pink PT had a net positive view of me or the idea that everyone in the PT was absolutely set on Saber-scum outside of Infinity who voteparked throughout the PT.

Skitter entered the Pink PT with THIS being her hierarchy of least wanting to vote to MOST.
Gamma --> Cakez --> Ydrasse --> Gypyx --> Saber --> peta --> UNWND

And what did she do with this?

She contested my Ydrasse-case, said she wouldn't vote Cakez despite AGREEING that I believed Cakez/unwnd was T/S, and she voted Peta mid-way into the PT and didn't move her vote at all.

It reads perfectly like she TMI'd you and Saber.
yeah uh wow lmao

i know she was putting her preference at me and those two but i didn't know it was THAT order
yeah haha, i should probably have led this event phase with this argument lmao
ha, it's fine

game is big, there's a TON of stuff to go through

and even then for me a singular data point isn't everything

you kind of have to look at all the pieces and assemble them together and see if they make sense, because you can always get false positives off a few posts? and it's more about looking at people and seeing which narrative makes the MOST sense
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Post Post #7339 (isolation #906) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:09 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7330, Gammagooey wrote:I gotta go walk Donovan and make a sandwich, I'll be back in like 45 min

peta, I'm sorry for making you angry. This game event and you have really frustrated me and I felt like I needed to explain it and get it off my chest, but I could have been less shitty about it.
apology not accepted.

when i am in a calmer state of mind, i am going to give you a proper reply to that post and explain why i found it so incredibly insulting.

but you do not get to walk this one back.
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Post Post #7342 (isolation #907) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:27 am

Post by petapan »

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Post Post #7380 (isolation #908) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:42 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7345, the worst wrote:The last few pages fucking suck to read and I'm not invested enough that they're doing anything for me developing reads. I doubt that Ggooey is deliberately upsetting people to make his position in the game more favourable. He is like, lovely in my experience and id be genuinely surprised if that was his angle here.

Taly, I'm going to hammer NAY. Do you have more you want to do?
There's a lot of things I thought scum wouldn't do. This game has been eye-opening in that regard.

I suspect the source of the salt is something other than what he claims it to be. I also suspect it's a last resort, because he doesn't have anything rational to say. This is the same way scum have gone out prior to this in this game when I was accusing them.


I am truly sorry the rest of you have had to be subjected to this. I would have liked nothing more for the conversations to be entirely focused on the matter of
solving the game
. But Gammagooey chose to make the conversation about
feelings
and
civility
and personally insulting me. He initiated this. He's the one who chose, by his own volition, to drag the conversation off the subject of figuring the game out, to one where he can paint himself as a victim. I did not want that to be the discussion, the rest of you don't deserve it.
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Post Post #7381 (isolation #909) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:43 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7327, petapan wrote:like, toog and gypyx were both blatantly town, as i have said before. they basically went because they wouldn't complain as loudly as everyone else. they deserved better. even if i found toogeloo largely frustrating for how he played the early game, i did get there in the end on him. ulyana was also blatantly town but because of how things are someone had to be sent to hell. we all had our blinders on at the time, i guess it was possible to get the answer but without the TA flip it was hard.

cakez was my own bias, i let associatives (and his fade from the game) bias me. if i had done the metadive i did this phase then i keep him as locktown. a mistake but hopefully an understandable one. i think he'll be redeemed in the end, though. hopefully i do right by him.

infinity was just me playing like crap and i regret that from the bottom of my heart. they deserved better.
i actually keep forgetting almost50 took over gypyx's spot in this game, which is really rude of me to do

he was even more blindingly obvious town and i wish i could have saved him
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Post Post #7385 (isolation #910) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:06 pm

Post by petapan »

Hell, let me change the tone here with some positivity:

There are certain players who try to subjugate games to their own will, to forcefully impose themselves upon the thread and shout down anyone who opposes them. Where, if you oppose them, you're bad or a gamethrower or whatever. I'd like to think I'm not one of those. I hope. I can play aggressively at times, because I hate inaction and indecision. But I don't like to shut people out. Because despite playing this for a long time, I don't think my instincts are all that great.

I can only really play well as town when the rest of the town plays well. If people don't make themselves townie, if no one has any good reads, I'm basically shooting blindly into the dark. I can only really get a good view of the game when other people give me something to work with.

Although I've been talking up my own reads this game, I was way off the mark in the early game, and only started zeroing in later, after moving off my mistaken tunnels and starting to listen to the reads other people had. I think, on the whole, the townies in this game played very good. I wouldn't say anyone played
amazing
, except for maybe Pooky (who barely even got a chance to play), but I think everyone did their part. Most everyone had some piece of the puzzle they helped put together. So I think on the whole town should be proud of how they did.
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Post Post #7386 (isolation #911) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:06 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7384, Taly wrote:
*hugs everybody*
see yall motherfuckers in therapy
its not over, right?
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Post Post #7387 (isolation #912) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:09 pm

Post by petapan »

guess i timed that a bit late

anyway gammagooey is hardspewed by his teammates
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Post Post #7389 (isolation #913) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:28 pm

Post by petapan »

i guess i won't kill the vibes right now by punching back at that one post although i still will
In post 7388, the worst wrote:
In post 7384, Taly wrote:
*hugs everybody*
see yall motherfuckers in therapy
oh dearest toucan
should this not end this damn game
you shall be avenged
are you current on why i changed my mind from it being your slot to being gammagooey? no idea how up to date you are
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Post Post #7391 (isolation #914) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:49 pm

Post by petapan »

okay.
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Post Post #7407 (isolation #915) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:05 pm

Post by petapan »

technically we can tick away and see who scum kills

i am obviously not really a fan of that
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Post Post #7409 (isolation #916) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:10 pm

Post by petapan »

it's functionally equivalent to no elim in f4 in a regular game

but i think it should be apparent i am incredibly obvious town here, so. that accomplishes nothing
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Post Post #7410 (isolation #917) » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:13 pm

Post by petapan »

gammagooey can plead his case here

i did basically all the homework i wanted to last event

will write up a reply tomorrow
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Post Post #7416 (isolation #918) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:38 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7414, Gammagooey wrote:Starting with stuff from the Blue PT when I first replaced in - within an hour and a half of joining I'm already voting skitter based on her posting from around pages 20-23, and about 6 hours after joining I point out that skitter flooding out a page of posts to distract from the Dunn wagon seemed to go unnoticed by everyone at the time.
if this is supposed to be a defense against you being informed, it is a poor one.
In post 7414, Gammagooey wrote:On one hand, yes, I am a decent player and I'm capable of changing up my play based on who I'm playing with, the current game-state, or just for shits and giggles (though the "for shits and giggles" changes I do a lot more often as town than scum).
But if I were scum HERE, where I would have been scum with the player who was the main reason why my team didn't win Team Mafia 2020, AND it seems like everyone in the Blue PT seems to be townreading her (on a brief skim I see townreads from Cakez, peta, and Gemerald, as well as scum-Saber) why on earth would I IMMEDIATELY start bussing her in particular and pointing out something that puts a ton of doubt on her? It would have been far easier and far saner to roll with that, work with skitter to snow everybody, and much more fun to do that than to relentlessly bus her into the ground.
i have addressed this. skitter was both feeling the heat in the pink pt and despite her skill does not prefer going to distance/being he carry. she was also "locked in" to a scumread on your slot and has difficulty turning those reads around even when it would be tactically beneficial. if, hypothetically, you got in the game and got told by skitter, "i can't keep doing this, bus me" i'm sure you'd take your marching orders and go with them
In post 7414, Gammagooey wrote:In addition to that, until last event I don't think I seriously pushed a town player once. I've been around long enough to know that it's WEIRD and eye-drawing to do that, and I don't think my scumplay generally stands up well over sustained scrutiny.
In post 7414, Gammagooey wrote:I also share my "reads" and make plans with my scumbuddies, and generally try to play pretty cautiously as scum and let town eat themselves whenever possible.
i mean....you said it yourself. that is not a point in your favor. town tend to be messy and wrong and all over the place.
In post 7414, Gammagooey wrote:And one last thing - I like to try to keep my posting short and succinct so a) I'm actually readable late-game and b) so the game doesn't turn into a miserable slog. And I think if you go through it I think you can tell where I'm coming from just about every post at least through the entire crossing + Heaven & Hell, even if I was kind of an idiot tunneling on Taly afterwards and dealing very poorly with being flooded out of the game with the 30 pages of wallposting+spamposting from last event.
okay, great? you can come up with explanations for what you said. none of that, in particular, is clearing for you
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Post Post #7418 (isolation #919) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:48 am

Post by petapan »

but that being said, we can go back and forth on this for days and go nowhere. the self-defense means nothing to me. make a case.
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Post Post #7422 (isolation #920) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:53 pm

Post by petapan »

this is where i'm going to do the cringey thing of putting a highly charged reply in a spoiler tag. i don't recommend clicking this if you're not gammagooey, it's not relevant to you and barely relevant to this game

Spoiler:
In post 7305, Gammagooey wrote:
petapan wrote:man i'm actually fucking mad now that you chose to pull that card

you saw the shit i got put through this game and you're calling me a douchebag for how
I
play

do you have any idea how poorly that comes across?
Maybe you can read what I said back post-game, still probably being angry, and think about the fact that I meant it. It probably is an overreaction to that post in particular, but I do fucking mean it.

This is not me being angry at you for calling me scum, this is the equivalent of me at a bar pulling you aside and asking you why you're acting this way to everyone there.

To be diplomatic, I'll say that I also would prefer not to play with Harley Quinn again. But you're treating people like mafia/scum first instead of showing some damn empathy and trying to understand where other players are coming from as PEOPLE, not as their alignment, and it's fucking stupid.

I would rather play a 50 page game that was light and jokey and fun in but lost than deal with a game that was 250/300+ pages and win. Maybe you've noticed, but today has largely stopped being fun for me. I would have been super happy to talk to you or Gemerald or even Taly in the Heaven PT about who ya'll were suspecting then and take that into account when I got to do *ruler stuff*, but instead it was 3 pages long with me being the only person who actually talked about who potential scum in the PT could be, and today has been every single player in the game dismissing my strongest read because they're probably going to die in the event already. And now there's what, a dozen pages or so of me feeling ignored and generally shat on for my choice after the fact instead.

I can deal with that, but let me tell you, it's not fun. I'm obv not thrilled about Taly/you thinking I'm scum, but it's a mafia game, if you can't deal with that you shouldn't play mafia.

I've read over your quotewall posts peta, and I've responded to the pieces I thought I could add meaningingfully to. You've posted I think about or over TWO HUNDRED times since the start of this event with absolute fucking walls of quotes that I've already read through earlier in the game. I do not want to spend hours of my life that could be spent actually enjoying myself going through them further and dissecting the individual points where I think you're being reasonable and the other points I don't agree with and have no/little change in either the game-state or in my opinions on the remaining players. If you have/had concise parts that you wanted my comments in particular on then I can do that, as I've said to The Worst already. If not, then say whatever you want people to read, let the worst catch up and share any opinions he wants to air, and then let's move on. I offered to replace into this game to try to make the game better and enjoy the events - both of those goals are largely not happening at this point, I'm not going to participate in the game to a level anywhere close to yours when it's not fun to play in.

And finally, MAYBE you've also noticed that I've tried to keep everything light and tried to be diplomatic with people even when I think they're scum and/or when they're scumreading me. I don't want to deal with other people's emotional outbursts, I don't particularly like getting overly emotional about the game myself. All I fucking want is an game where people can enjoy talking to each other and have fun and consider each others opinions EVEN if they think the other person is scum, and you've been the cause of three replacements so far. (maybe like...2.2 if we factor in how likely HQ was going to replace out in that situation even with another randomized playerlist) Don't call people a "fucking slimeball" if you're going to get legitimately angry when someone says you're acting like a douchebag. I'm tired of the game, I'm tired of you expecting me to be as invested in it as much as you given the game-state, and I'm tired of your behavior this game making it less fun for multiple people. Just treat people better in future games, and if/when you do wind up elim'ing me or the game ends I'd rather you consider why I felt this way instead of just complaining about my shitty play.
Okay, great. Let's start things off. You flipped out and insulted me over a post where I made a purely symbolic change to my vote that affected nothing, and accused this of somehow being a gesture of disrespect to you because I expressed disagreement with the townie you got killed. That's an absurdly disproportionate response to a completely inoffensive post. That's offense number one for you.

Now, there were some posts I made where I probably was overly aggressive. But you chose to act wounded over one that meant nothing. Now, misunderstandings in games happen sometimes. Intentions aren't always clear through text. But I explained the vote was purely an expression of disagreement that I thought Taly would flip town (which I was correct on) and you chose to ignore this and escalate further. That's offense number two: ignoring my explanation of my vote to attack me and make claims of your own victimhood. This is where I lose patience, because you are clearly not interested in any sort of good faith communication here.

I do not wish to re-re-litigate the Harley Quinn Saga here. I was entirely diplomatic in my treatment of her. I can quote my posts after her replace in and demonstrate that I was entirely diplomatic toward her. I got met with a torrent of abuse in response to this.

What Harley attempted to do was exploit people's sympathies and desire to treat other players as humans to gain an ingame advantage. You are doing the same as her, just written more artfully. You trying to make me out to have been inconsiderate toward her because I did not allow her abuse to affect my ingame decisionmaking. It is utterly despicable. That's offense number three, trying to distort that incident and turn it against me.

What I see here in your complaints about the game not being fun for you is this: "Fuck you for playing the game in a way I don't like. Fuck you for caring more than me. Fuck you for trying. Fuck you for making me have to defend myself." I do not demand that everyone keep up with my pace or reread the game, that is why I was dumping quotes in the game, because I thought they were game relevant information. If you find it difficult to keep up with that is understandable. But I do not demand everyone engage with or respond to everything. I am a player in this game and I have every right to post what I feel is relevant to solving the game

What an incredibly myopic, selfish perspective that is to have on games. That by posting more and actually trying to analyze last phase rather than sitting on my ass and waiting for obvious town to die, I am making the game unfun
for you
because I was actually playing it. What a childish thing to say. I care about this game. I have put hours of my life into working on it and trying to solve the mystery,
because I find this fun
. And you come in and slap me across the face by whining and saying that me trying is That's offense number three: prioritizing your own desire for how the game should be played over everyone else's, and shitting on my effort in a phase where you did absolutely nothing but tunnel obvious town and refused to consider other possibilities. To have the audacity to accuse me of making the game unfun after how you have acted takes a lot of nerve.

I am not demanding you participate in the game at my level, but you refused to participate in any meaningful way last phase, and that is essentially inexcusable for a town aligned player (although I don't believe that you are anymore). But other players in this game have been able to meet me on at least some terms. You have attacked me for daring to show passion and enthusiasm at all.

Maybe if you did not want to deal with outbursts, you shouldn't have escalated against me by attacking me for a meaningless vote. I was purely focused on trying to analyze the game, and you chose to personally attack me. That's offense number five. You initiated this aggression and chose to act like I'm the bully for responding to you.

To be frank, I no longer care about people getting replaced out in response to me. I was over the line with Saber and I am fully cognizant of that and tried to dial back my behavior as a result. But that is irrelevant, becausee as shown, people will still cry and whine and bitch and accuse me of being unfair because they want to escape from being accused. It doesn't matter. (To be clear, the entire engagement with Gamma Emerald was entirely personal rather than game related, and I remind you again that he initiated it.

Of course, this is the conundrum, as happened With Harley: you are complaining that I'm making the game unfun, that I'm not treating other players as people.

But this is still a game where every word has to be viewed through the lens of whether the person saying it is trying to manipulate me. And this looks a hell of a lot like you trying to guilt trip me. That is how I am choosing to view it. Because I don't want to believe you're this despicable a person. I have been subjected to a lot of attacks this game
because I was correctly scumreading someone
. And it has really done a number on me, so to try to use that
as a cudgel against me
is inexcusable.

To be clear:

I think acting wounded and playing the victim, as Saber did, is valid.

Insulting me and saying I should quit mafia, as Harley did, is valid.

Harley claiming that me scumreading her was harming her mental health is out of bound is inexcusable.

What you are doing right now, although detestable, is valid. I just have to evaluate whether your words have a hidden motive behind them.

I hope, for your sake, that this is a tactic. Maybe there's some real feeling but you're playing up the offense in an attempt to get me to back down.

But regardless, I still
hate
you for it.


Do not bother writing a reply to this. I will not engage on this matter further. I will give you the due courtesy of reading any game relevant content you produce. But that is all I will talk about you with. If you try to re-escalate, I will stop communicating with you.
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Post Post #7423 (isolation #921) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:36 pm

Post by petapan »

let me be clear what i want from you, gammagooey, since that was a pretty heavy post where the only purpose was making my feelings clear.

what i want from you, right now, is to present a case on who you believe the last member of the mafia faction to be. i am currently of the opinion that it is you, but am willing to respectfully hear out other arguments. we have a short deadline. i want to hear from you within the next 2 day, or i'm going to assume you're tactically stalling. i do not think that is unfair.

i look forward to seeing what you come up with.
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Post Post #7425 (isolation #922) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:53 pm

Post by petapan »

whatever you feel fine with i don't mean to cramp you
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Post Post #7426 (isolation #923) » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:00 pm

Post by petapan »

work however you want, i spent last phase doing my homework and came away with an answer, the floor is open to the rest of you
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Post Post #7430 (isolation #924) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:50 am

Post by petapan »

In post 7427, Ydrasse wrote:
Tick Away is selected automatically in:
(expired on 2021-11-26 01:37:39)

very very drained rn so tomorrow ill post but just wanted to make sure everyone knows we gotta solve in this time unless we want kill
yeah i mentioned this last page but basically i want a hard deadline of 2 days before deadline to start laying down votes
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Post Post #7432 (isolation #925) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:25 am

Post by petapan »

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Post Post #7440 (isolation #926) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:03 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7436, the worst wrote:i don't think his scum wim is that high.
i posted hundreds of times in a game where i was stuck in a mechanical autoloss dude
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Post Post #7441 (isolation #927) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:08 pm

Post by petapan »

there are many reasons i am not scum this game but never read me on energy level

i am prideful and obligated to assert that my batteries do not run out


but anyway, reading and evaluating. will probably reply tomorrow
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Post Post #7443 (isolation #928) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:24 pm

Post by petapan »

the not overplaying is probably a better point in that i don't like to pull out tricks i don't have to if i can save them for another game yes lol
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Post Post #7444 (isolation #929) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:26 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7437, Gammagooey wrote:When skitter finally gets around to answering what I've been bugging her about since literally my first post in the main thread almost 1000 posts later (and I know you don't want much defense in here peta but I promise you that as scum I would bug her in the scum PT to answer way way sooner than that), Gemerald is the only read that gets largely skipped over instead of actually giving reasons for, which matches what she did D1 with both Dunn+Saber as "no thoughts/forgot they were in the game"
i did notice that and now i'm thinking of another game and going ah hell
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Post Post #7445 (isolation #930) » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:54 pm

Post by petapan »

but, a singular odd read in a list can happen.

some of that saber interaction is significantly more textured than gamma-scum's treatment of his partner in my last brush with him and he actually got caught in part because his distancing was so poor

i guess i can do some homework on that to fix up that read


am looking at ai upick

already have thoughts but will hold
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Post Post #7447 (isolation #931) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:58 am

Post by petapan »

if you wanna defend yourself atp go for it i just didn't want that to be the only conversation we were having yknow
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Post Post #7448 (isolation #932) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:11 am

Post by petapan »

is actually an excellent post regardless of gamma emerald's alignment, and i'm going to explain why

he's drilling down on a specific detail of how saber is being nitpicky with language, which in general is a type of read that is more likely to come from town - scum tend to paint in broad brush strokes. it's also going back to recall a post that happened 900 posts earlier. that's a significant level of attention to detail. in a lot of worlds, it could be distancing but it's a more intricate read than he typically makes as scum (more intricate than most people make really)


i keep looking at his recent scumgames and reminding myself of what gamma emerald's actual range is, and there's a significant lack of depth as compared to his towngames, and lack of motivation. he highposted in FFXIV but he was in a hydra with nancy drew for that which likely helped for motivation and also helped pad postcount since he wasn't the only one making posts.


certainly his fade into the background in this game is concerning but i probably am too prone to falling into the "what have you done for me lately?" mentality, which can sometimes be successful in catching scum coasting, but just as often hits town who fell out of sync, and the whole crossing event phase was demotivating to a fair degree. probably need to take a bigger picture view here.
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Post Post #7449 (isolation #933) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:50 am

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i guess i'd like to hear if worst has more to say before i sound off in full
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Post Post #7465 (isolation #934) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:54 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7451, Ydrasse wrote:scared the worst is coasting thru quietly not giving as many thoughts but game is long and hard to think about
to be fair i had the same thought but at the same time gammagooey has re-evaluated his stance on a slot i couldn't get him to take a second look at last week which can just as easily feel like a change of convenience. worst probably not too invested regardless of alignment and just taking the reins to the finish line. in some sense both are just moving themselves to my view since i made it clear i wouldn't consider you as scum and would be a pain in the ass to call scum.

why i devalue present content in ELO, place higher value on backreading
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Post Post #7466 (isolation #935) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:57 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7459, Gammagooey wrote:
In post 7447, petapan wrote:if you wanna defend yourself atp go for it i just didn't want that to be the only conversation we were having yknow
i will! but I know they're often not helpful to people actually reading the defending player (or at least like most of the time it shouldn't be for players good at both town & scum). Like as either alignment I'm cherrypicking my things here, even when I think I'm better than most about giving reasonable context for given posts, and its a lot harder to effectively convey "here's why I'm not scum" in the same way as other game opinions given the bias inherent in that.
Also putting it in spoilers just feels more like "hey interacting with this is optional!" which I like b/c arguing about why I townread myself is prob not helpful past like a single response/counter-response.

Spoiler: HQ read flip on me
I think regardless of whether you think I'm town or scum, you can agree that this post and the few afterwards were very scum-indicative for HQ. I say that I'm scumreading skitter+HQ's slot the hardest, and HQ picks out the only other name that I'm scumreading and *taking some slight comedic liberty* 'NO you can't be town because THIS THIRD PERSON you're scumreading should NEVER be left behind', despite currently scumreading skitter. Like I think it's reasonable for to not think this is a town-clearing post for me, but also I think that's pretty clear that's how she would respond to basically any hypothetical town player doing the same thing - her MO this game was lashing out at people scumreading her, her seeing me with an opinion that wants both her and her scumbuddy she's bussing to die and SCREECHING to a halt to scumread me with the first thing she thought of is fits that perfectly, seeing a town attack both her and her buddy wasn't going pacify that tendency somehow and convince her to try to play for slower townreads.
In post 5045, Harley Quinn wrote:
In post 5038, Gammagooey wrote:I finished rereeading through some stuff to try to read Ydrasse and Gypyx better and it was mostly not helpful. I do think I should downgrade Gyoyx/Prism from strong town to regular town read b/c most of my read came from the Prism slot and just Gypyx *efforting* but he still comes across as town to me

Ydrasse wasn't around much for pages like 50-70, kinda helped start the Galron wagon and then wasn't around for a while but also those pages were like a single real-life day so I don't think it's anything to really hold against her. Ydrasse also wasn't around a ton in blue PT which is slightly eh but most of her content there was pushing Toog which I can't really fault either.

My perfect left behind-team atm is prob skitter/Saber/Ydrasse/whoever Ydrasse wants to take down with her but I'm much more concerned with just getting skitter/saber dead atm

If Taly gets within hammer range of sending across I'll do it even though I want him to go later, but also I want to be slamming through the first 4 people once we've got the 1st person crossing.
VOTE: petapan for now

oh hey more posts. I would still push dwlee through too and be perfectly happy about it, so if more votes go in that direction I'll jump back on dwlee wagon. Gemerald is also fine would vote to cross

oh and LAST THING I probably don't have much time to post until Saturday evening except for tomorrow morning and pop-ins to change my vote as a heads-up.
Okay, lost my initial tr on this slot. Ydrasse should never be left behind.

Spoiler: that one skitter post asking Galron if she could help that peta fjgfjg'd at
I
suspect
that you didn't like the 2nd post here, but it's just skitter seeing Infinity do literally the same thing and then repeating it a bit later.
In post 1012, skitter30 wrote:
In post 802, Infinity 324 wrote:@galron is there anything i can do to help you get more engaged? honestly not much has happened so far, the main event has been gamma acting erratically and getting scumread for it, and lashing out at prism for confidently pushing him.
actually i kinda like this
In post 1234, skitter30 wrote:
In post 1110, Galron wrote:I'm caught up enough I think. I just haven't found anything to really dig into. The mechanics seem the most interesting thing, but I don't think it's really the right time to talk about that, at least until we have the first challenge under our belts. My reads are awful, and I have this impression that no one's done or said anything really noteworthy. Like in Radio Buzz by this time we had several 1v1s or 1v1v1s. I see a few here, but they're junior varsity spats. I'm seeing what I think is a frustrated Gamma leading the pack, but I'm not sure why he's so scum read, which makes me think I need to go back and read the beginning of the game again, which I started doing. I do kind of agree with whomever said that thing about Ceph being similar to RB, and I think I need more than just that feeling to scum read him I think. I dunno, I'm just missing a ground hold here.
You feel very weird and like muted as compared to radio buzz. There iirc u also kinda missed fhe beginning of the game but ur contributions were p quickly p townie. Idk if the difference here is that u need more time to get into the swing pf things, or if ur just scum. Dunno how to differentiate between those universes just yet

Is there anything i can do to help you get into the game?
the harley read thing is in and of itself not necessariy a red flag, but the fact that two different players in the same scum slot were both attacking you when there was no likelihood of you being a candidate for elimination is a significant red flag in my view. she notably
didn't
call me scum and while different treatment can sometimes be aribtrary it feels meaningful here

and regardless of if skitter is copying that infinity post, it does not make me feel better about galron's alignment? she took a significantly softer edge with him than with other players, at least initially. later it transitioned to a full on push but that is just as easily explained as a bus
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Post Post #7467 (isolation #936) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:00 pm

Post by petapan »

Spoiler: unwnd posts on saber
In post 2208, unwnd wrote:Ceph/Me/Myself (lol)

Leaves Saber/Ulyana/Dunn/Ydra/Taly/Cakez

Not going to sit here and say that those 5 should definitively contain a lot of scum, but I would bet two. If my points seem obvious it's because this is the angle I'm choosing to get myself into the game. My readrate is Ydra is laughably bad so maybe she'll see my replacement and see me as a free pocket. I remember not liking Saber tonally? Dunn I think I can figure out if given enough time. Cakez let me ISO him. I am also going to be playing at my full potential and just lumbering around. My passion for writing stuff that nobody will read has been stirred in me once again!
In post 2324, unwnd wrote:If Saber flips scum at any point in this game she's not scum with Dunnstral based on something I just read

You can consider that vice-versa
In post 2334, unwnd wrote:One particular post from Saber with her vote placed onto me (Galron) and a light finger pointed towards Dunn. Just seems extraordinarily misplaced and didn't seem like a distance attempt
In post 2358, unwnd wrote:UNVOTE:

Not sure where I'm placing this quite yet. Gut would say on Saber or SirCakez. The former seems controversial and the latter I don't wanna have another game where me and Skitter are just in disagreement but happen to be the same alignment. I was a bit taken aback but her strong words but I'm starting to think that's how she is? I'm more familiar with her towngame but don't have data on her scumgame basically.
In post 2428, unwnd wrote:I really want to start forming a decent town list before I start looking in the weeds. I have my Saber/Cakez thought but everywhere else seems incomplete.
In post 2431, unwnd wrote:Trashing my Dunn read.

I end up doing this a lot and I'm prone to give him early passes by assuming intent. The fact of the matter is though that actually reading the game I just think Dunn's behavior is tepid. Yes, that's what Dunn does. He's not a very in-your-face player but there's a lot of stuff from him that just meshes together. I don't think Dunn is afraid to be bold. I don't think Dunn chooses to be unreadable when he's green. I think he leans onto that 'is he thinking about something' type of deal more when he's red. This is not a complete 180 it's more like my reasons to townread Dunn were all assumption and tone, but contextually I can't really see where he fits.

I'm just looking for an indication of what he wants. Even the most tepid version of Dunnstral has something I can affix him with. The only thing I could gather is that he really didn't like Ceph. OK. Ceph is dead now and Dunn is still fiddling with the inbetween and I'm not sure what happens next.

That being said my "Saber/Dunn aren't aligned" idea is still floating in my head. Making associative takes and then buying into what you see can be really dangerous. I'm not afraid to make mistakes I just don't want to lose sense of reality. There's nothing besides a complete fucking literal guess with that. I get that's what you do especially without a proper flip but I digress.
In post 2432, unwnd wrote:Dunn, what's your read on Ydra? You two were partners in RPG so maybe you'd have an idea of what to look for?

My two reads I've talked about at the hypothetical bottom are still present just not associative. Cakez is individually scummy and I think Saber pinged the shit out of me.

My reread did..not give me any leanings and I feel an actual headache coming on when I think about how I kicked Dunn of the top of my list because I really really really really really want to form some trust and I've probably repeated that 3 times now but it is absolutely crucial to me.
In post 2463, unwnd wrote:My cakez read is not that he's in catchup mode. I'm not sure how that thought was lost in translation.

I was in the car thinking about how you think I'm theatrical Saber. In what way would that determine a read on me? My short answer remains but I'm pretty sure I just like to write. I lean into prose because that's what makes mafia fun to me. Thinking about concepts and wording and such. I'm capable of faking it as scum to my own credit.
In post 2538, unwnd wrote:I'm not trying to make some grandiose point but Dwlee vote to me just seems so flat and not really game-changing. Same thing with Toog/Gypyx really. I think I would want to use the execution for realistically a more controversial read matched with a (Toog/Gypyx) type person because I'm certain the Pooky switch is not an informed Toog/Gypyx/Dwlee groupscum decision, even if nobody has implied they think that could contain the whole groupscum.

As an aside, I don't know what people see in Saber but I also don't have the proper words at this time.
In post 2586, unwnd wrote:
In post 2583, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 2544, unwnd wrote:skirting around it
Who do you see as doing this rn
A lot of people. Taly? Cakez? Toog? Saber? even Shiki honestly
In post 2711, unwnd wrote:I mention 'hey what about Cakez/Saber they're scummy'

I get feedback of 'nah don't agree' from most people. I think I would still want those two? But I'm
literally
not in a position to be calling shots like that and I'm not egotistic enough to believe I am. I went to Infinity/You as a secondary because you were a topic I wanted more focus on and I do have gut reasons to not really like Infinity. Maybe it's my bad the way I startled you but damn. If my words are coming off ineffective I will try my best to pool everything together and start over.
In post 2741, unwnd wrote:I'd rather be fighting Saber because that pelt is way more spicy
In post 2744, unwnd wrote:Actually yeah

VOTE: Saber

I will get absolutely no support on this but don't care
In post 2833, unwnd wrote:The least I can bargain is that I would still love to flip Saber/Cakez

I would say at one scum there, confidently

But matching any further doesn't seem proper
In post 2835, unwnd wrote:Please let me kill Saber.
In post 2836, unwnd wrote:The townreads on her are bad.
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Post Post #7468 (isolation #937) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:01 pm

Post by petapan »

Spoiler: unwnd's giant wallpost
In post 2981, unwnd wrote:This bracket of thoughts has the capability to be word salad. Something I wanted to write so I had a place to put my frustrations. Replacement has weighed on me. Not in a dispiriting way rather I am taking upon a game that has made motion without me. I don't really like doing the maximum if I don't have to, but I guess that's the reputation you build up when you're able to write walls. I was hoping to avoid this outcome but I may as well use it like catharsis. Peta was telling me that he didn't want my feelings and rather my analysis but I think that's a tall order. My feelings feed into my analysis as the way I play this game is trying to get into the mind of someone. I think about what
I
would do in their position. This includes scum. I think mafia is the type of game where experience over time becomes the deciding factor. I'm oscillating between trying to let myself not be stubborn and just letting go entirely.

It doesn't really need to be said but this game is hard. Pooky and Ceph are both capable townies who were killed early. Gamma was put into the chair under the pretense of elimination (from what I've read) and a lot of people were righteously convinced it was the right idea. This has flipped and caused a scramble because you had a good amount of prominent "townies" all agreeing with the outcome. Then it didn't happen.

I put townies in quotations because I don't think this would be so difficult if the team weren't involved. I mean, I guess that's obvious. My slot (Galron) was chosen by Gamma and the Stagehands intervened and killed off Pooky. Right now I am almost certain that Gamma would not chose to execute a (Townie) just to have his own team disagree and sabotage the event when he has control. Gamma is certifiably town for that alone. So what am I to think about the fact (Galron) was spared over Pooky? Not much, because nobody else seems to care. That leaves me a bit biased and feeling like I shouldn't compromise with people who can't see that Galron is not a big enough player (no offense) for Stagehands to waste one of their sabotages on. Were they afraid of clearing Gamma? Doesn't seem so because the sabotage itself already clears him in my mind.

I've had some people (shiki) question my motivations to look at Gamma's wagon than my own. Yet it's clear to me that Gamma's vote for the chair was more orchestrated than a vanity wagon on my own slot. I think scum were put in a position where they'd rather just be idiginant towards Gamma and kept him as the "elimination." I think maybe you have some stragglers who were voting me but I couldn't put it into words. That feedback goes into 'this is much harder than I want it to be' and that some prominent "townies" are scum. It's a little frustrating when people ask you for answers as if I should have them. If I'm being honest, usually scum have answers at the ready because they don't have to think about perspective. Say things that look townie and move a form of agenda and move on. There's a bit more nuance with scum who are self-aware and can fake indecision and being unsure, or are just are supremely awkward as scum and don't know how to play like you have an agenda.

I think the team probably has a mix of both. It's still not a definitive, but complete stab in the dark (I'm writing this with limited amount of homework done) I'd say something like..

Toog/Taly(?)/(Skitter/Peta)/Saber/Cakez.

This is not a herosolve. Very unlikely I have solved the game and this is the whole team. I am missing pieces but it's a start. It's a start. This is where I'd like to vote and see what comes of it. Infinity has left my mindset due to what happened with Ydrasse. I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole and I think I'm going to slot her at a comfortable null as with Ydrasse. I was convinced by her frustration but I can't objectively see it anymore and honestly looking back on it gives me bad feelings. Ydrasse's argument with me was
not
a peaking moment of where she finally shows how town she is. Ydrasse is capable of being manipulative and I don't want that attitude put onto me. It doesn't matter what anyone believes-- I was only giving her olive branches. Irremedably frustrating to have my inentions be twisted and then be dogpiled by people who can't let go of the ghost of Galron and are putting shit onto me.

...Moving on.

My angle on Toog is that their voting patterns suck. I don't see them as carefree or just trying different shit for the fun of it. Their vote on me is a literal call for bloodshed and that's not fitting for someone typically more even keel. Meta is not fully indicative I just think you ask yourself where Toog belongs in this game. I vehemently disagree with Skitter's take that Toog doesn't care because I think it's the opposite. The votes and 'jeez! what is everyone doing!?' attitude is a displaced scum who doesn't know what to do themselves. So they fake motivation in ways to rush decisions while having nothing to do with them. There's no sleuthing at all even if Toog is not exactly a detective. I am getting zero essence from them that they care about what the outcome of my elimination means or anything for that matter.

Taly is a big question mark for me because they don't fit in my mind. This is a curious (?) where I don't think they're townie but also not null. They're a hard elimination and in my absolute tinfoil paranoia I think they're being protected by scum. I have less on the motivations of why, but I feel their presence to not be something that relieves me. Maybe it's their nature to weird, but I can't townread weird because something tells me that Taly is probably decent at his own weirdness and using it as a means to be townread. There's nothing entirely wrong with his approach but that alone makes me question because it is presented in such a processed and orderly manner where every appearance by him is very deliberate. It would be townie in another game but not this one, and not based on the events that have happened.

Skitter/Peta need to get solved eventually. I am putting these two here because they're involved in the current state of the game. Peta was one of the louder voices about Gamma and Skitter was on my slot. Don't really think these two are aligned and were working different angles of the game. I would love to trust both of them but I do not. I think right now I would give Peta more favor than Skitter. I was a little pissy about him voting me but I also appreciated that he wasn't locked into it. I'm weary but if he's just having another good scumgame then I doubt I have the means to topple it. Least not right now. These two are the most far in terms of..viability. Viable to be voted out or eliminated. It's too much of a risk and it's just not going to happen anytime soon. So why talk about them at all? Dunno. It helps. That's all these paragraphs have been. It's helping me and focusing me.

Anyways, about Skitter. I just disagree with her. I disagree with her a lot and often. Does disagreement need to be the reason why she is scum? No. No I didn't want to believe that, and I was trying to find compromise and not end up in a situation like Siege where I backed out of my townread of her because we came to a disagreement. I think Skitter is very not afraid to put her stake in things but that makes it dangerous because I've seen her do so to dissuade town. It's just this dismissive attitude that is rubbing me wrong and I wish it didn't.

Saber is scum. I feel it in my bones. I have less words about this but goddamn. I have not felt good about one fucking post they made. It's so agenda-driven and handpicked out of the right arguments to make at the right time. It's calculated and not in the sense of a townie who is just making use of their time. It's calculated to where it's always just 'doing enough' and no more. That's my problem. She does enough to not be scrutinized but goes no further. It's missing the blemishes that make up townies where they don't know the answers. It's the exact fucking thing I look for and at this rate? I think I'm pretty damn good at recognizing it. She had just the right amount of push onto me and reason to vote me and now she's backstage in her PT because job is done. Conversation and interaction with her even from an outside perspective just read like someone who is trying to sell you on the appearance of a townie. And you're all fucking buying it and it annoys me.

Cakez I'm going to withhold what I think because apparently Peta has a case and there doesn't need to be two cases. He's not really a developed scum so if Peta is not a stagehand I'll probably just sheep his thoughts.

There is my unfiltered and complete dump of thoughts. I could probably make more but I digress. I don't think I like playing at 'I suspect all these people' but the good news is that I acquired some townreads and I'm starting to believe in my own vision of how this game is playing out. Now it's just a matter of letting it lie and see if it comes true or not, and stopping any momentum scum has made.


mostly, i find myself looking at this and wondering what i ever saw in it
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Post Post #7472 (isolation #938) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:24 pm

Post by petapan »

the reads on skitter and saber both really say nothing much at all

this is a game where gamma emerald has a more coherent and sensible explanation for a scumread on saber than unwnd, which i feel should not happen if unwnd is town. he barely explained the read and mostly left it to formless whining which makes me feel like he didn't really want to convince people. i suppose it's not really out of his townrange but it doesn't inspire confidence.

in particular the "you're all fucking buying it" line at the end feels a little rich. sort of similar parallels to HQ/TA pointing the finger at gammagooey. feels entirely possible he was the designated bus who wound up getting pivoted off of by town. if i had to guess who would be more likely to bus on day 1, research says it's skitter. the interactions between saber and unwnd/gammagooey in the blue room don't inspire confidence. neither does skitter compromising off her supposed top scumread to vote a town. the part earlier in the game where she backed off on unwnd talking about how she may be tunneled only to jump back on when he came out losing the argument with ydrasse has parallels in her past scumgames - if her teammate gets in a heated argument she usually feels the need to position herself on the "right" side of the exchange and i feel like that's what happened here

there's too many troublesome data points and not enough to actually redeem the slot. what do i have? unwnd's AtE? well within range. gammagooey being right on both scum? in a game where most of the town were somewhat confused in their reads that feels
less
good.

and that brings me to kind of a cheap thought - there's this weird continuity of reads across unwnd/gammagooey. am i to believe two players of different minds both got the same exact 2 members of the scumteam when most of the game struggled to piece it together? it strains credulity. i see similarities with saber/hq/ta all pushing the slot even as it moves out of eliminatable territory. to me it just looks like scum bussing each other at all costs
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Post Post #7473 (isolation #939) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:28 pm

Post by petapan »

In post 7469, the worst wrote:i'm definitely chillin yeah - i can talk very-late-game replacement theory post-game if we want. just kinda another page on the pile of stuff that doesn't help anyone solve fmpov.
i mean, that feels like an expression of personal preference more than anything else, you know?

i would be going hard as hell in that position but i am obviously a weirdo who cares too much and looks at games when they're in 4p/3p just to see if i can guess who the last scum is. for other people i accept that they're just along for the ride and aren't going to make waves
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Post Post #7474 (isolation #940) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:29 pm

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i'm going to give gamma emerald a look over again tonight, trying to get big picture stuff rather than reading selectively, will talk with ydrasse when she's on, then (hopefully) vote
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Post Post #7476 (isolation #941) » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:45 pm

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had a few posts i liked, not exactly anything definitive
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Post Post #7479 (isolation #942) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:32 am

Post by petapan »

assumption is do it enough and hope people get confused and dont pick up on it
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Post Post #7482 (isolation #943) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:10 am

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there's not an implausible narrative for gamma emerald it just falls on what's most likely
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Post Post #7487 (isolation #944) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:47 am

Post by petapan »

if you accept me as town then there was definitely some bussing going on day 1 it's just a matter of who on who

had thought skitter was more likely to try for bold play as scum but research suggested that is not the case

additionally i think skitter hedging on how the shot from gamma and galron doesn't disprove s/s pretty likely indicates a partner in one of them and is trying to keep the option of flipping the other if the partner gets flipped. but makes kind of less sense for gamma-scum in that she looks horrible on a gamma redflip and doesn't get to push galron off of that

if it's galronslot past a certain point they were just pot committed to bussing but there were certain situations where they really looked like they were trying to ease up
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Post Post #7489 (isolation #945) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:08 am

Post by petapan »

mua ha ha
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Post Post #7490 (isolation #946) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:08 am

Post by petapan »

nah jk not hammering as if that wasn't obvious
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Post Post #7492 (isolation #947) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:15 am

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i will be giving things a once over tonight
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Post Post #7495 (isolation #948) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:12 pm

Post by petapan »

did u rly tho
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Post Post #7497 (isolation #949) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:27 pm

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@gammagooey


it didn't feel right leaving things off on my last message. this one's not angry like the last one.

Spoiler:
i realize i came out way too strong in my last message to you.

at the end of the day this is just words on a screen written by some person i don't know as part of a silly game.

and it's not worth getting that mad over. so i'm sorry about that message. it wasn't right for me to lambast you like that even if i was angry.

i don't doubt, regardless of your alignment, that i did something to legitimately upset you this game. and i regret that that happened.

but i will not apologize for voting nay. and i will not apologize for playing the game my way and trying to figure things out.

regardless, me being upset at your response to that is not going to factor into my decision here. i've tried to separate my thought process from that.

i really was legitimately excited to see you replace into the game. i know we don't really know each other or anything, but it was nice to see a username i recognized from back in the day in a game. the way the internet goes, people are always moving on, so it's nice to have some sense of familiarity.

it's unfortunate that things ended up like this.

in spite of everything, i still wish you the best after this game is over.


you can reply to this or not, wait until postgame if you want, your call. just want to try to close on a less bitter note.
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Post Post #7499 (isolation #950) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:37 pm

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ydrasse mentioning the blue room was a good idea because gammagooey was much less authoritative in there about the skitter read and was expressing doubt on...basically everyone
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Post Post #7503 (isolation #951) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:03 pm

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yeah i know

i did the last bit of checking i wanted which was a little further skitter meta and a reread of the blue room

i want to hammer although it doesn't feel quite right not letting gammagooey get a final word in but can't drag this out forever

i guess i'll type up a post with my final reasoning here
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Post Post #7505 (isolation #952) » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:27 pm

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i am watching a movie now though so don't stay up waiting for it

(the movie is once upo a time in china starring jet li)
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Post Post #7513 (isolation #953) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:21 pm

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not forgotten just busy and writing
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Post Post #7514 (isolation #954) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:40 pm

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been busy with (non-holiday) stuff so this took longer than anticipated

let me lay out my reasoning for all this in one place. i might be wrong but at least you can see what i was thinking.


1. skitter is far more likely to distance from or bus a partner than defend them. can she change things up to against meta? sure, but i have no idea why she commits herself to saving gamma emerald on day 1 of an all vanilla setup. the only times she tends to go the defense route is when there is a mechanical or gamestate reason to be anti-bus: this offered neither and yet she was setting herself up to look horrible if people ever decided to flip gamma emerald.

by contrast, her treatment of galron/unwnd looks super-partnery for her: she tried some soft touch questioning at first on galron, and then when his posts did not improve, she started pushing him when people mentioned him as a suspect and kept going through multiple phases. however, when the appetite for unwnd wasn't as strong as anticipated, she votes dwlee instead, only going after unwnd when he comes out looking bad in his fight with ydrasse and cakez. this is, again, really highly characteristic of how skitter plays around her partners - if she thinks they look bad in an argument she's going to bus. the final straw is that with an ability to vote essentially anyone in blue room and unwnd's slot as her supposed top scumread, she opted for voting me instead.

2. galron's posts were bad. unwnd's posts were alo pretty bad. if i go past the self-voting nonsense, there's not a lot there. notably, unwnd was very strong in his distaste for saber and skitter, but never really articulated a coherent case against either. he mostly just whined about how he wanted to kill saber while not explaining. the explanation he did give didn't say much and was mainly saying "the townreads on saber are bad". this fits the pattern of scum who is being bussed pointing the finger at their partners as they're going down.

the fact that unwnd tried to weakly backpedal on his skitter read after dunn unexpectedly got shot is another point against. he used me as an excuse rather than revising his own read, which is a typical scum tactic. of course gamma emerald did too but it feels more in character for GE to defer than unwnd.

the fact that the scumreads on those two players persisted even as a different person took over the slot feels non-coincidental as well. that gammagooey clued in to skitter so quickly in blue room but didn't really strongly push it seems like a red flag. gammagooey came out with a hedgey light dislike of saber's posts, but gives an excuse of how it could be style or whatever. this flips when i come out of blue room guns blazing for saber. if we assume that skitter started losing enthusiasm for the game here and realized she wasn't going to endgame, the increased pressure from gammagooey makes a lot of sense as the partner she was setting up to endgame.

i also think the interactions between saber and unwnd/gammagooey in the the blue room were extremely awkward and probably partner-indicative. saber tries to write unwnd off as town because of his dunnstral progression, which is rather silly, especially after saber was so gung ho for unwnd's blood before that. saber looks like she's trying to de-escalate between them when she does talk. her asking gammagooey "do you share your predecessor's read on me?" is awkward as fuck.

3. gamma emerald, although really sketchy for large parts of the game, did have moments of genuine feeling and the occasional depth of analysis that i mostly don't see in his scumgame. i think just on an individual basis his posting has more towny moments than the other slot.

4. both harley and TA went down pointing their bony finger at gammagooey and talking about how he was scum for interactions with skitter/galron being saved.

this again feels like typical dead man walking scum calling out their partner who's deep trying to make them look town. that two people did it makes it feel non-coincidental, especially with how typically TMI harley's reads were on people she defended. gammagooey waas never in danger, so why did they attack him? to distance. this is honestly maybe the strongest for me, just feels such typical spew, it mirrors how unwnd was treating the saer slot almost perfectly.

5. i do kind of think gammagooey was trying to fast-play us in event 9 and have people turn their brains off and that's conducive to a scum win con when he wasn't getting much scrutiny. i also think his points against Gamma Emerald have just been...not that strong? Like he's more telling me what I want to hear than anything, it's a
plausible
narrative but i don't get the sense he really believes he pinned scum down with the points he's making.
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Post Post #7515 (isolation #955) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:43 pm

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so sorry if wrong etc

VOTE: ring the bell: petapan, Ydrasse, the worst

and don't spoil it, please. let the director have the dramatic finish she wants
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Post Post #7516 (isolation #956) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:43 pm

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Post Post #7543 (isolation #957) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:00 pm

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sorry
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Post Post #7568 (isolation #958) » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:51 pm

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I'm not going to have game related commentary here, there's a lot of frustration and regret but that's not really important and I mostly just want to put this game behind me as soon as possible rather than dwelling on it. Bummed that I second-guessed myself but that's how it goes sometimes. Not healthy to get so worked up over being right/wrong. Failure is inevitable in this game and for most people there's a limit to how good their read rate can be.



I was way over the line in being abusive toward certain players this game who absolutely did not deserve it. I don't think it was fair that Galron chose to quit the game rather than dealing with me and by rights I should have been force-replaced for my behavior.

To those I was unfairly harsh toward, I am sorry. My conduct was unacceptable.



I made this account as an inside joke but found myself adopting a more aggressive/assertive playstyle on it, one which I found some amount of success with at the time. But even then I burned myself out by being oerly abrasive in my play on it. I had planned to leave it behind in 2013. But after a long break, I felt compelled to come back on the account I was miost recognizable on. Old habits die hard though, and the aggressive play that worked okay in 2012 just isn't suited to the norms of 2012. I know it's silly to think a login username affects things that much but I have too many memories associated with this account and old habits die hard.

I don't
want
to play like I did this game, it wasn't fun for me and it certainly wasn't fun for others having to deal with me.

So it's time to do what I should have done 8 years ago and try to leave this playstyle in the past. To try to be better and kinder to people in games. And I think it'll be easier for me if I play on a different account, get myself out of the old toxic player mindset I had.

Again, I'm sorry for my conduct. If and when I decide to play another game, I will try to be kinder and more respectful.
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