Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)
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Hey, I was wondering, why is vanillaiser considered not normal?
(like, i've read the conversations about it but i don't think anyone has said an answer about that)White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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First point :
Well, although it's kind of a stretch, enabler / backup are roles that make your role change through the course of the game
And then, i think that a very gated scum vanillaiser wouldn't be so bad (like, night 1 or night 4)
And town could use it to remove power "just in case" from suspicious VT claims, i don't think there's a need for scum to be OP for vanillaiser to exist
(Like :
Tracker
Vanillaiser
5 VT
Vs
Mafia night 2 rolecop
Mafia 2-shot ninja
Seems like a fine setup to me, at first glance)
so that's fine for both sides imo
Anyways, i'm totally fine with vanillaiser staying abnormal, but if it were to be normalized, it would have to be the announcing variant i thinkWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Quoted from the wiki :
A Combined role necessarily performs all of its constituent actions on the single player it targets each night.
If you had two self-targeting abilites, like : Combined Activated Miller Activated Bulletproof, that would work imoWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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I agree that activated miller is kind of a bad role, i just used it as an example to a way to use the combined modifier on self-targeting rolesWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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hey so, i've been about normal roles recently, especially finder, (don't know what it is? yeah don't worry, no one used it in a setup yet, basically you're an investigative who only gets a positive if the player you visit is a specific role)
the problem with it imo, is that it generally has low appeal because
- peoples already know what they're finding, so if they find a town role, that's a pretty good confirm imo, and if they find a scum role, a investigation working on a single person kinda sucks
- the role peoples find only exist for one person most of the time, if the guy who has this role dies, congrats you're a VT
so how about this : aUniversal Finder, which would be derivated from that like we have a Universal backup derived from Backup
this role may target a player while naming a role, if the targeted player is said role, the universal finder gets a positive result
it could be used to confirm claims as town, or as a weak PR hunting tool for scum (which would need some support, like a mafia informed of setup and a universal finder would be quite fun imo)
Or is it just a bad idea?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Yeah basicallyWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Just like UB is a Backup cop / Backup doctor / Backup RoleblockerWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Good question about finding vanilla, i guess it could be up to discussion
And idk, Role Guesser sounds more themey to me if you see what I meanWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Or an sk
But no it isn't normalWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Just realized that PT cop doesn't show as having a gun to gunsmith
That's kinda lol tbhWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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NiceWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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i'd say thatIn post 605, Umlaut wrote:This still seems to be the usual thread for general questions about Normal rules, so here's a general question.
If a Traffic Analyst targets a Night 2 Mailman on Night 1, or an X-Shot Mailman who has used all their shots, my understanding is they should get a negative result. Is this understanding correct?
night 2 : positive, as he still posesses the ability to mail, just that he can't do it yet
all shots used : the mailman can't use his abilty anymore, so it's a negativeWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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when was the last normal multiball?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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i'm honestly baffled that modifier-finder isn't a thingWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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take off their recruiting, give them a factional nightkill, and name them "mafia"White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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such a role was refused in a previous normal review though, and i don't think the stance has changed on thatIn post 643, TemporalLich wrote:A Backup Traitor would be a very odd role to add to a game but it would be theoretically possible - if a Traitor dies a Backup Traitor loses access to the Mafia kill and the Mafia PTWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, a traitor vigilante can't exist, so i think it's a question we can leave unansweredWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, yeahIn post 663, Cook wrote:can you even attach modifiers to roles that have no powers (e.g. vanillas)?
Mafia Multitasking is a legit role for instanceWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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normals don't follow the same rules are great ideaIn post 667, Gamma Emerald wrote:X-Shot Townie should not be allowed since in Great Idea it just becomes a Survivor after all the "shots" are expired
a Town 2-shot would be able to perform his non-existant ability twice basicallyWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, a Mafia combined cop would be forced to have the same target for a Factional Kill and Cop action right?In post 671, TemporalLich wrote:Combined Cop would technically be correct but also is wrong - You're meant to put at least two things in a Combined container but it's not like you're going to crash the game if Combined has 1 or 0 things in it.White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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you can have modifiers applied to a single part of the role or the role as a wholeIn post 676, Umlaut wrote:Another example:- It seems mostly agreed that e.g. a Mafia Loyal Rolestopper can still carry out the factional kill against town, mostly because that's how everyone wants it to work. This means the Loyal modifier attaches only to the abilities of the role it modifies.
- There is precedent that Mafia Loud Goon is an acceptable normal role and that it will commit the factional kill loudly, implying the Loud modifier attaches to all active abilities including factional ones.
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also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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bumping this cuz it kinda got ignored but i think the idea has potentialIn post 688, Gypyx wrote:also kinda off topic but i wondered, would allowing the scumteam to assign the roles among them has room them has room for design in normals?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Normal games are about offering players a consistent experience though, and maybe it's a feature of normals, but i doubt many peoples are in for the "oh boy, can't wait to try to protect my teamate who happens to be important as scum !"In post 726, Dunnstral wrote:In my opinion that should stay in theme games, working with x player having y role should stay part of the normal experience
and Goon is the vanilla version of mafia, so it can't be enabled, just like you can't enable a serial killerWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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isn't worthy of being a whole new role imo, we should aim at keeping the list of normal roles to a medium sizeIn post 749, TemporalLich wrote:
yeah but you still have Vigilante.In post 748, Kerset wrote:
You got Personal.In post 747, TemporalLich wrote:Perhaps Asceticizer (Rolestopper that doesn't stop kills) could be Normalized?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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nitpicky, but by normal guidelienes, membrers of a groupscum can't be soloIn post 770, TemporalLich wrote:
none of themIn post 768, Gamma Emerald wrote:What third parties would you see being potentially normalized?
Serial Killer is the sole exception because you can use a lone Werewolf to emulate it (unless you want to run a game that is both multiball and SKattic)White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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cool for a theme, not really a normal imoIn post 808, Wake1 wrote:How about a Modifier where, if a player acts at Night, it leaves a token/marker/whatever on itself.
And then have a PR—or a modifier—that lets you check a player at Night to see if they have any of these tokens/markers on them.
How does that sound?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, imo, one of the rules of normal roles is that they shouldn't like, create mechanics that interact between themselves, for instance a fruit vendor by himself is okay, but i wouldn't want a fruit cop that checks if someone has fruitsWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, no, your token makes the guy appear positive to THAT specific role, and that's it, which is imo, not good design for normal
like, basically, the token modifier works only in combination with your investigative, which isn't something you'd wanna have in a normal whitelist in my eyesWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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sounds like putting the graylist into place but with extra steps lol
personally i'd be fine with it, although maybe splitting up the normal queue isn't the best idea, a rotation could be better?White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Multiball-specific roles doesn't seem to me like how normals should work, or at least not how they work currently, but there could be discussion around that? (example : cop doesn't make a difference between werewolves / mafias)
additionally, i have another suggestion, how about an "anti-personal" modifier? Like it makes the role only affect factional abilities, could be useful as a buffing tool for manipulatives or a modifying in an interesting way some roles (anti-personal Role Watcher comes to mind for instance)White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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maybe yeah, but given we have like visitor in the whitelist, i'd say it's not a huge problem to have less common modifiers like thatIn post 889, TemporalLich wrote:I'm suggesting Impersonal though it would be very niche in NormalsWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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also impersonal pretty damn good
nothing personal, kidWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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the only valid names for alternative multiball factions are Werewolves / or a mafia variationIn post 907, mastina wrote:
I'm opposed to this because the role name predates the faction name. Alien was a role before the Alien faction existed.In post 903, Cook wrote:can we aliasAlientoAbductorto help differentiate the faction and the role?
Also Alien as a faction is (mostly*) not Normal.
*(Itcouldbe done I believe because I believe it isn't a strict rule that multiball factions must be called 'mafia' and 'werewolves', but I could be mistaken. But, even if I'm not and it can technically be done through flavor, I would not recommend it.)White Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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does this really belong in this thread thoughWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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well, not really for changing a faction's name, besides imo, factions are way more something that's a "culture" thing than an arbitrary name, you can't change it like that with little reasonWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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pretty niche modifier, like, manipulative roles onlyWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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sounds like it has a similar but less versatile utility than fast / slow
it could work in normals though i guessWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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Well, just give separate lists for both roles, i don't see why it can't work like thatWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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yeah true, the list is just a backup option reallyWhite Flag : Carebear Edition is in signups ! (9/13) sign up if you want a low pressure, high friendliness game !
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