Is it Ethical to Replace into Your Alt?

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Taly
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:15 pm

I want the MS community to give their opinions on this. I've seen in games where players will replace into their alt not because of an outing, but because that alt served a purpose in the game whether it benefitted the player or the game itself in some arguably subjective manner.

My current stance? I find it difficult to justify this not compromising the slot.

As someone with multiple alts at varying degrees of public knowledge, my playstyle, syntax, and even motive between my alts are different regardless of their alignment. For me to replace into an alt mid-game is to convey an agenda that can't ever be verifiable even if it were pure and the game knew my identity. Because why would I augment my playstyle and thus void or call into question my impact in the game so far?

To provide an example, I'll completely out one alt: Cupcake Butterfly. Even though the user of these accounts is the same person, these accounts are two separate entities in a game.

Cupcake Butterfly is how I play mafia with as muted a personality as possible. The tone, emotions and spirit that define Taly in the game will be void under the alias of Cupcake Butterfly.

Cupcake Butterfly is meant to be a concrete protection of my mind where Taly is who I am with all the nuances, irrationalites, and abstractions. A robotic, blank plate of metal VS a canvas caked with acrylic pour.

How can people read me in good faith if I deleted the continuity of my imprint in a game because I thought it would be to my benefit?

I feel that that can't be answered without WIFOM that diminishes the slot's integrity.

What do you think?
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:48 pm

I think it depends on a lot of things, and not just the purpose of the alt.

And the same potential issues arise when someone playing on an alt accidentally posts with their main, too.
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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:01 pm

How is replacing into your alt different from reverting to playing as you would on your main, or just claiming your main while on the alt?

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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:06 pm

I've replaced myself in games on separate accounts plenty of times. Other than accounts being outed as me, the only real reason I replace the slot with another of my acocunts is because each of my playstyles requires a different headspace to function and there are times where I can't get myself into that headspace, so I will just switch accounts so I can actually play the game and not just be a useless lurksack all game.

There's probably plenty more reasons that are reasonable, but if it's specifically to gain an advantage, then that is bringing outside influences into the game imo
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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:11 pm

In post 0, Taly wrote:I want the MS community to give their opinions on this. I've seen in games where players will replace into their alt not because of an outing, but because that alt served a purpose in the game whether it benefitted the player or the game itself in some arguably subjective manner.

I think I need this better defined before I can make a call on this, but I've seen Flavor Leaf switch accounts multiple times per game because the vibe changed for him, so there is potential for tangible reason to switch alts that isn't being outed that isn't essentially abusing the system
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:15 pm

It's angleshooting if you can't discern an alt switch from an actual requested replacement.

At worst, it's gaming the system of replacements.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:17 pm

that's entirely true.
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:19 am

In post 1, fferyllt wrote:I think it depends on a lot of things, and not just the purpose of the alt.

And the same potential issues arise when someone playing on an alt accidentally posts with their main, too.


But the intention is different I would say? Someone is playing on a certain alt for a specific reason, if it's just an outing in a game, then yeah, they can be held to a different criteria of play, but that wasn't an intentional change in how they interacted with the game.

In post 2, Morning Tweet wrote:How is replacing into your alt different from reverting to playing as you would on your main, or just claiming your main while on the alt?


Because some people intentionally play differently on other alts from how they even form reads, to behavior, and even meta.

In post 3, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:I've replaced myself in games on separate accounts plenty of times. Other than accounts being outed as me, the only real reason I replace the slot with another of my acocunts is because each of my playstyles requires a different headspace to function and there are times where I can't get myself into that headspace, so I will just switch accounts so I can actually play the game and not just be a useless lurksack all game.

There's probably plenty more reasons that are reasonable, but if it's specifically to gain an advantage, then that is bringing outside influences into the game imo


I'm guessing, how do you define what a specific advantage is and how is it mutually exclusive from replacing into an alt?

Because my thinking, couldn't it be argued that to "not just be a useless lurksack all game" is an advantage regardless of alignment?

But this makes me think of another aspect of this issue: would gatekeeping how people use alts be a detriment to fun in a mafia game, and does that weigh against integrity?

In post 4, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 0, Taly wrote:I want the MS community to give their opinions on this. I've seen in games where players will replace into their alt not because of an outing, but because that alt served a purpose in the game whether it benefitted the player or the game itself in some arguably subjective manner.

I think I need this better defined before I can make a call on this, but I've seen Flavor Leaf switch accounts multiple times per game because the vibe changed for him, so there is potential for tangible reason to switch alts that isn't being outed that isn't essentially abusing the system


Say I'm on Taly and I get heavily suspected or BoP'd in a game based off my tone. I move onto another alt to better remove what was likely the reason I was suspected as Taly. What if Cupcake Butterfly felt too hidden in the game and Taly would be better at grabbing the thread?

Say I play Cupcake Butterfly and felt the game would be more fun if I reverted to Taly, or felt that playing on Taly was too taxing for me emotionally and wanted to jump on Cupcake Butterfly for an easier play.

Are these not situations that compromise integrity?

Could these scenarios be different - one being a more allowable shift than the other - but how do we determine that is what the motive is of the person changing into an alt?
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:40 am

In post 2, Morning Tweet wrote:How is replacing into your alt different from reverting to playing as you would on your main, or just claiming your main while on the alt?

^ this mostly

also being able to replace into your own slot is vastly (many orders of magnitude) preferable for game health to the alternative which would likely involve players leveraging past private conversations with other players in order to prove their identity
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:43 am

If the alt is public I see no foul play involved. Switching accounts to change mindsets for the game seems fair, if a bit weird in that idk how that’d translate to f2f mafia ever
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:09 am

In post 7, Taly wrote:
In post 2, Morning Tweet wrote:How is replacing into your alt different from reverting to playing as you would on your main, or just claiming your main while on the alt?


Because some people intentionally play differently on other alts from how they even form reads, to behavior, and even meta.

Could you not accomplish the same effect by just reverting to the way you play on your main while still on the alt though?

Since claiming your main is always allowed I'm unsure how replacing into it can really be considered unethical. If you play differently while on an alt (as a lot of people do), but drop that alternate playstyle part of the way through the game and revert to how you usually play, that's just something that happens. It happens to me pretty much every time I try to do anything different on an alt ever. It's like taking off the restraints in some cases.

As a player looking at that from the outside, I assume that the alt's mindset was no longer helpful enough to the player and they wanted to go back to playing as they normally would. I'm not sure I see the connection where that is compromising to the game. They could have just revealed their main account rather than replace-switch and had the same effect.

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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:17 am

Hmmm. I guess it could also be said that changing mindsets in a game still doesn't redact what could be AI from another mindset.

Perhaps switching alts can bring insight more so than deception?

I wonder if anyone agrees with my original stance haha.
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:23 am

In post 10, Morning Tweet wrote:
In post 7, Taly wrote:
In post 2, Morning Tweet wrote:How is replacing into your alt different from reverting to playing as you would on your main, or just claiming your main while on the alt?


Because some people intentionally play differently on other alts from how they even form reads, to behavior, and even meta.

Could you not accomplish the same effect by just reverting to the way you play on your main while still on the alt though?

Since claiming your main is always allowed I'm unsure how replacing into it can really be considered unethical. If you play differently while on an alt (as a lot of people do), but drop that alternate playstyle part of the way through the game and revert to how you usually play, that's just something that happens. It happens to me pretty much every time I try to do anything different on an alt ever. It's like taking off the restraints in some cases.

As a player looking at that from the outside, I assume that the alt's mindset was no longer helpful enough to the player and they wanted to go back to playing as they normally would. I'm not sure I see the connection where that is compromising to the game. They could have just revealed their main account rather than replace-switch and had the same effect.


I can see the question you posed. And I believe you could, theoretically.

To the bolded, but couldn't the mindset to change into another alt be AI?

Gamma Emerald wrote:If the alt is public I see no foul play involved. Switching accounts to change mindsets for the game seems fair, if a bit weird in that idk how that’d translate to f2f mafia ever


So switching alts that are publicly known is the most honest way to do this? Or at least being open to outing the alt?
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:26 am

i think the only time that it could be considered unethical is if you replace into a slot that is your own without revealing that it is your own alt, and then using that to radically change reads for a benefit. like as scum you’ve been pushing someone and realize it’s a bad idea so you dip out and get on your main with “better” or more palatable reads that people are accepting of to try and slide by.

inherently people will still read your slot’s behavior on that alt (and will probably scumread the rep out, let’s be real here scum reps out way more) but i think in that situation you can give yourself an advantage that people not replacing into a slot wouldn’t receive, as they would have to prove/fake/etc read changes and behavior changes.

though i do think it’s harder to achieve this anyways as some people might notice that the replacement wouldn’t go through the replacement queue.

otherwise, taking your own slot is... fine i think? i play on alts a lot, some open, some not, and have had some alts revealed midgame. it’s still me and i still have the same meta, same experience with people from them to gauge against my playstyle and posts.
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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:33 am

In post 12, Taly wrote:I can see the question you posed. And I believe you could, theoretically.

To the bolded, but couldn't the mindset to change into another alt be AI?

It could be AI. But so are a lot of things. That doesn't make it compromising necessarily. It's more or less a public declaration you want to switch up how you're playing mid-game, which people do all the time.

For a lot of people it seems like changing accounts assists in the switching of the mindset.

I think I can see what you're getting at -- for some people, the accounts are totally linked to their playstyle and depending on which account they play on, they'll change it up. But this can also be accomplished without replacing. And for players who would prefer to change their account to do this, I feel that'd be better for the game than forcing them to stay on the original account.
In post 13, Ydrasse wrote:i think the only time that it could be considered unethical is if you replace into a slot that is your own without revealing that it is your own alt, and then using that to radically change reads for a benefit. like as scum you’ve been pushing someone and realize it’s a bad idea so you dip out and get on your main with “better” or more palatable reads that people are accepting of to try and slide by.

Lmfao imagine

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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:44 am

In post 13, Ydrasse wrote:inherently people will still read your slot’s behavior on that alt (and will probably scumread the rep out, let’s be real here scum reps out way more) but i think in that situation you can give yourself an advantage that people not replacing into a slot wouldn’t receive, as they would have to prove/fake/etc read changes and behavior changes.


I actually only have town rep out examples comes to mind with this kind of thing LOL but I see what you mean.

:eye: Aly

I think I'm sliding to the idea of it being allowable if the alt is outed. But then I wonder if this should be a mafia site rule to be enforceable.
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:47 am

It's not an inherent advantage to do something that allows you to play the game at all unless it directly runs into another rule or unethical usage of mechanics. If you're open about why you're replacing and are making efforts to not make it into an issue, I see no problems with it.

It's a similar thing as to why I believe self meta is valid if you are showing that behaviors other people are suggesting are not actually valid. If you are very open about the alt being yours whenever someone gets it confused and are not acting like it's a strategic replacement (like deciding on your own replacement when you're being pushed for example), then it's really on everybody else to make it into an issue It's not.

Generally, I've only ever seen it be an actual issue once, and it was from a mafia pushing an agenda.
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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:48 am

In post 15, Taly wrote:
In post 13, Ydrasse wrote:inherently people will still read your slot’s behavior on that alt (and will probably scumread the rep out, let’s be real here scum reps out way more) but i think in that situation you can give yourself an advantage that people not replacing into a slot wouldn’t receive, as they would have to prove/fake/etc read changes and behavior changes.


I actually only have town rep out examples comes to mind with this kind of thing LOL but I see what you mean.

:eye: Aly

I think I'm sliding to the idea of it being allowable if the alt is outed. But then I wonder if this should be a mafia site rule to be enforceable.


What?
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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:52 am

I want to piggybac Tweetie here and say that changing accounts would personally help someone like me orient into a game differently because I feel more coherent at the idea of declaring when I have a mindset shift in a game. In a way, it could be a more transparent way to play but I was wondering how that can be abused and to avoid it.

I just didn't know if the MS community had anything against this and wanted to play devil's advocate here. :3

Alyssa The Lamb wrote:
In post 15, Taly wrote:
In post 13, Ydrasse wrote:inherently people will still read your slot’s behavior on that alt (and will probably scumread the rep out, let’s be real here scum reps out way more) but i think in that situation you can give yourself an advantage that people not replacing into a slot wouldn’t receive, as they would have to prove/fake/etc read changes and behavior changes.


I actually only have town rep out examples comes to mind with this kind of thing LOL but I see what you mean.

:eye: Aly

I think I'm sliding to the idea of it being allowable if the alt is outed. But then I wonder if this should be a mafia site rule to be enforceable.


What?


Haha I just referring to a game where I think you rep'd into an alt :)
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:00 am

Which one? I've done it several times at least. I even have a game where I did it twice.
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:05 am

In post 18, Taly wrote:In a way, it could be a more transparent way to play but I was wondering how that can be abused and to avoid it.

I suggest this because there is a physical marker that symbolizes a mental shift.

Well, devil's advocate to defender in 2 posts, my brand. :D
Alyssa The Lamb wrote:Which one? I've done it several times at least. I even have a game where I did it twice.

I am unsure it is buried on my games somewhere. You replaced into your respective RWBY character if I remember correctly.
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:32 pm

I can think of two potential issues - one is what ydrasse already touched on, and that's using a secret alt (or an alt that only some people know the identity of) in order to gain some kind of in-game advantage. the other is if you're using the act of the replacement to somehow "prove" that something you said or were thinking is true or towny for you - then I'd consider that to be trust tell/outside influence territory. I don't inherently see an issue in switching accounts mid-game, but I would probably find it annoying if someone were repeatedly switching accounts.

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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:37 pm

In post 12, Taly wrote:So switching alts that are publicly known is the most honest way to do this? Or at least being open to outing the alt?

Yeah, basically
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:37 pm

So perhaps the best way is, one maximum replace-to-alt in-game, must be publicly outed, and of course don't outright trust tell or attempt to?
"Taly is going to be a hot mess all game and I am entertained" ~ Gammagooey
"The human race is bad at reading Taly." ~the worst
"Taly I knew your slot was scum and I still struggled to find arguments to SR your play lol" ~Infinity 324
"Taly wins for the most fence-sitty reads in a game ever" ~Battle Mage

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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:42 pm

as long as you're making it obvious you're repping into an alt of yourself, and aren't trying to get a weird advantage in the way that ydra was describing/something similar, i don't really see an ethical issue tbh
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