Open 837: Cop Killer - Endgame

[Auro]

Who is Innocent Child then?

Fishing. /s

VOTE: Enchant

[Auro]

i guess rvs joke-voting the inno is loosely town, in that it's kinda similar to rvs self-vote gambits.

How are either of those things townie?

There's a difference between towny in the sense of meaningful town contribution, and towny due to higher likelihood of coming from town.

Kinda bummed you're IC A50, would've been fun sorting you.

[Auro]

Hello hello old friends and new

VOTE: Roden

Didn't like his first post, I think using a past game to justify RVS vote is inherently a lil awkward

Also I like Galron for town

The structure of this first post: [vote, justification, townread] comes off as scummy to me

[Auro]

@GuiltyLion: My votes sometimes lag behind my attacks, and I'm able to apply pressure on you without needing to vote. Did you read anything off my lack of vote?

Echoing a vague-ish scumread on Roden based on what I read when I woke up, I'll study that closer and elaborate.

[Auro]

Why? Seems fine to me...

Felt as though it was designed to appear towny right off the bat, rather than a naturally townie first post.

Hey hey hey, I'm liking DArby for town.

[Auro]

I do sometimes just poke things. And I am totally capable of pushing multiple things at the same time. You really should know this about me based on our only game together. If it's not clear from that, then you just haven't played with me enough.

@Salsabil: would you be able to quote instances from the game you played with LicketyQuickety from which you formed your expectation that they are aggressive with votes in that manner?

[Auro]

VOTE: Galron

Do I detect a certain stiffness and disinterest?

[Auro]

VOTE: Galron

Do I detect a certain stiffness and disinterest?

Disinterest sure. Dunno about stiffness. Explain that.

Posts felt constrained. We played before, and I recall you were involved in (even early) gameplay to a greater degree.

Why... the disinterest?

[Auro]

Salsa always seems to have a bit of chaotic energy that I find hard to read, but I was pinging after the whole "I want to vote roden but not sure I should" thing, which is scum thinking though I don't know why it was verbalized

Why is it scum thinking - why can't town be unsure? Is there a hidden reason scum would be unsure? Is there fault with her reasoning for not being sure?

[Auro]

Ah, that.

My takeaway is that LQ is very likely town, although I don't recall experiencing his scum game - so I'll have to skim through some.

[Auro]

Town: {Bingle, LQ, Darby}.

Agree with Bingle's takes on GL around page 16.

I don't share the scumread on Salsa yet.

[Auro]

^ these three feel the most pure / agendaless to me

Walk me through your Galron read, I can't see it? Like sure, some of his questions are "pro-town", but what makes them likelier to come from town!Galron?

[Auro]

guiltylion seems by far the most obviously pro-town player, both for his early-game contributions and for his more recent attempt at understanding the thread.

Similar question to Esther: do you believe that scum!GL wouldn't have posted pro-town content as he did so far?

[Auro]

VOTE: Roden

[Auro]

I would also go as far as to say that if we should flip GL, and he turns town, that would be scum indicative on Bingle given the recent shade. But I also kinda don't think GL is likely to get flipped. A NK'd GL would be another story.

If you townread GL and acknowledge he's pro-town, why on earth would you flip him to determine Bingle's alignment instead of flipping Bingle directly?

Signalling to the other scumteam, aren't ya

[Auro]

Also, padding a page with a number of posts just to get to pagetops is getting a little annoying

[Auro]

Whoops, seems like I misread things. Still an awkward post tho

[Auro]

Stretch.

You should know by now about my fondness for aggressive interrogation. And the redundancy of Pavlov's statements formed a major part of my *gotcha* which holds even discounting my misread.

[Auro]

I mean that limming town!GL with Bingles points in mind would be scum indicative on Bingle, but if GL were NK'd I wouldn't assume Bingle was behind it.

Why would you engage in preemptive NKA in the first place though?

Like... This is just introducing so much WIFOM into the thread.

If GL gets shot here, did Bingle do it for towncred? Did scum do it trying to frame Bingle? Did the CPR doc do it trying to save GL from the scum shot that was trying to frame Bingle of either alignment?

Just posting that makes it completely useless.

@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.

[Auro]

@GL: This is the redundancy I was referring to. Like why bring up the GL NK?
I'm a little concerned you didn't see this.

He brought it up the second time because Salsa asked him why he brought it up and he was trying to clarify his original post. How is that "redundant" when he was literally asked to explain??

I'm VERY concerned you don't see that

I'm referring to the first time, or post 440 though?

[Auro]

Like talking about the likelihood of you flipping, and then bringing up the case where you're NK'd adds nothing to the thread - the only purpose it could have served was some form of cross-team signalling. And note that I'm not referring to his further explanation of it.

It's obvious things wouldn't necessarily be the same if GL was NK'd, no? How often do we see townposts of the form "hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..." (I know this might be an uncharitable twisting of what he was trying to convey, but this is how it comes off to me as possible signalling).

[Auro]

I mean that limming town!GL with Bingles points in mind would be scum indicative on Bingle, but if GL were NK'd I wouldn't assume Bingle was behind it.

Why would you engage in preemptive NKA in the first place though?

Like... This is just introducing so much WIFOM into the thread.

If GL gets shot here, did Bingle do it for towncred? Did scum do it trying to frame Bingle? Did the CPR doc do it trying to save GL from the scum shot that was trying to frame Bingle of either alignment?

Just posting that makes it completely useless.

And Bingle stated the same as well earlier - even if you disagree about whether it's likely signalling, do you not concede that this is a valid viewpoint?
And if it is a valid viewpoint, why I may have been more confident in my "gotcha" than if it were only my misread in isolation (and to further clarify, I was on mobile and I missed an 'if', maybe due to overflow, reading "if we should flip GL" as "we should flip GL")?

[Auro]

"hmm, if somehow X slot were to be night killed, hmm hmm hmm, then my opinion could change..."

i liked auro's earlier posts on signalling -- not in that i really agreed with them, just in that he raised the issue and pushed it reasonably, without discussing how a scumteam might interpret it as a signal -- but this sort of post is the reason i asked pavowski to drop the issue.

It's straightforward how a scumteam would interpret it given they treat it as a signal. Further discussion would only make it harder for a scumteam to act on it.

[Auro]

If GL is scumreading me but not voting me is an issue here, you also don't vote me yet but keep expressing multiple times or showing prove that I'm scum here and voting Roden instead...

He didn't say that his problem was GL scumreading you and not voting you, but GL scumreading you and "treating you gently".

GL's scumreading Roden and also voting him - but LQ still has a problem with that read because of the "gentle treatment".

[Auro]

I see what you mean and sure, there's quite a bit I'd like to further add which we can pick up again on D2.

Meanwhile, while you're here: has your recent convo with Pavowski helped develop your read on him?

Also:

posts like this are the ones that have me going "scum dont have to do this and im really not sure they want to". the evidence in-thread is that nobody wants to make these posts! it pings town over scum to me because i think it disproportionately benefits scum to leave those pages as much a black hole as possible. clarifying the general thrust of the argument and giving interpretations seems to be hurt the mafia's, idk, "abstract wincon" (a low-information gamestate) way beyond any towncred it might be worth; it would cost literally nothing to just, refuse to make any attempt.

Are all kinds of gamestate information detrimental to scum, though?
Scum do have to form reads, and project town through their dayplay. Wouldn't these inherently damage that abstract win-con anyway?

@GL: Do you agree with Esther's assessment: that summarizing and interpreting those pages of arguments hurts scum more than any towncred it may offer?

[Auro]

The power of the hammer in the palm of my hand

[Auro]

It feels perfectly reasonable to accuse an unannounced E-1 vote as scummy when you're potentially about to be hammered though?
Salsa's last posts felt the opposite of survivalistic. Wouldn't appealing to A50, or trying to aggressively shift a wagon onto one of her voters be survivalistic? Should town be survivalistic or not?

[Auro]

VOTE: Enchant

[Auro]

Sigh, Darby...

[Auro]

Recap thoughts on enchant, galron?

[Auro]

Nah, just if there were any convincing reasons they could be town. Enchant should be a relatively fast ISO skim, if you'd want to.

[Auro]

most players are likely town until there's good evidence otherwise

No fun in that

[Auro]

Almost50 signalling! Scum confirmed

[Auro]

LQ's reads list this page is surprisingly shallow.

Enchant feels like they're open wolfing but I'm happy waiting for D3 there.

[Auro]

VOTE: T3

Choo Choo

[Auro]

Auro - Having doubts here since I'm probably TRing Bingle and GL more at this point.

Why does TRing Bingle mean doubt over my alignment?

[Auro]

Does that strike you as a crazy leap in logic?

If the fire team kill was "incinerated", what would you expect the ice team kill to read as?

Mildly refrigerated?

[Auro]

Could LQ be playing in this bizarre fashion to avoid being widely townread and thus perhaps killed by the opposing faction?

:think:

[Auro]

VOTE: LQ

[Auro]

And how so?

[Auro]

First part - guilty, but not because I'm scum, I like the style

Last part - I don't envision how the vote could look *bad*? Based on what I've expressed before about LQ, I could simply naked vote and it should be fine. If anything, I'd be far more worried about my laziness and lack of thorough engagement with people if I was caring about how my slot looks.

[Auro]

a bit more detached with it

I perceive this game very differently to the rest due to multi-ball and high killing power, so while I'm following the game I'm not too bothered with

immediately nailing scum

.

[Auro]

Last part - I don't envision how the vote could look *bad*? Based on what I've expressed before about LQ, I could simply naked vote and it should be fine.

That’s kind of my point. A naked vote would have been fine. Instead you dropped in with your theory about intentionally being weird to dodge a kill which feels unnatural and performative.

Why do you think LQ is playing up the weirdness?

Yeah, but performative per se doesn't necessarily imply scummy, no?

I was performative for the sake of being performative for that specific post - I simply added some bit of flair (as I judged). If you believe I didn't believe a naked vote would be enough, I'd see why tailoring a post would be scummy. Otherwise, there's no specific

scum motivation.

Also, I'm missing A50 this game already

I do stand by my theory , I think LQ's disinterest feels forced (per my model of expected LQ behaviour), especially compared to his D1 play from what I recall. Either way, this setup is really fun (4 scum out of 11 alive, with two opposing factions,

with a compulsive vig/doc

, it's wild) and I'd like to lim people expressing disinterest and handing out uninteresting/shallow takes.

[Auro]

a bit more detached with it

I perceive this game very differently to the rest due to multi-ball and high killing power, so while I'm following the game I'm not too bothered with

immediately nailing scum

.

Are you talking about to the rest of the plist or games or what? I get the high-powered killing thing but not sure how that fits with what you're saying.

To other games. In a vanilla game with a single scum faction I'd prolly be tryharding while I'm alive.

[Auro]

i dont really get where auro's coming from at all, but it also doesnt sound like a made-up excuse, it sounds like something i just dont get.

Are you talking about my apparent "detachment" or my "playing to the audience"?

[Auro]

Either way, this setup is really fun (4 scum out of 11 alive, with two opposing factions, with a compulsive vig/doc, it's wild) and I'd like to lim people expressing disinterest and handing out uninteresting/shallow takes.

Yeah^

[Auro]

@GL: Not sure why stirring the pot is a bad thing; often, provocation can result in more interesting, readable states.

@mc esther: To clarify, I think GL recalled previous towngames of mine where I put in much more effort compared to this one. This setup is inherently chaotic and, if I might add, a bit difficult - I don't think there's much utility to putting in the same kinds of effort that I typically do as town. It's not that I don't care about the game or that I'm disinterested - I'm just not as *attached* to my reads as GL otherwise expects me to.

[Auro]

I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to figure that out tbh.

I don't think it is either, but I could see what GL sees to some part in the direct use of that word. Personally if I hadn't given it any thought I would've phrased it as "killed by the other faction", but Pavowski mentioning Team Fire explicitly earlier in his post suggests some thought to it.

[Auro]

Wait. You are Conf Town? How so?

Wait. You are Conf Town? How so?

635

Oh, I missed that.

Also, someone explain why Roden is confirmed Town because I'm not getting that.

@Roden: leave that, he's not paying any attention to the game whatsoever lol

[Auro]

I'm fine letting Enchant live

[Auro]

Maybe thought Roden is Doc actually, hell i know.

Am I understanding this correctly: you thought Roden could be doc?

[Auro]

Oh nevermind, that scum may have thought Roden's doc. Got it.

[Auro]

Strong townreads: Mc Esther, Galron

[Auro]

Sorry, I've been shifting between cities and there's a lot to do irl, I'll be active in a day or two.

@gl missed responding to your question, wasn't it readable that I was scumreading Enchant and LQ at that point? I still don't get strong town vibes off you

[Auro]

From my PoV, find 2 town out of 5.
I think MC Esther is one.

[Auro]

Game theoretically optimal for an Ice team mafia member to claim and lead the kill if they want to force chances of a win, as opposed to chances of a draw.

[Auro]

I agree on Looker looking like the most likely LQ partner.

If Looker claims to be Ice Mafia I'd reconsider voting them.

[Auro]

I agree on Looker looking like the most likely LQ partner.

If Looker claims to be Ice Mafia I'd reconsider voting them.

What’s your argument against this slot?

Bingle chainsaw'd me when I voted for LQ, and never shifted his vote afterwards.

[Auro]

Yawn

@mc esther you have any slots pegged for town?

[Auro]

pavowski, darby, and roden; yes, same old same old. pavowski's posting got kinda weird today imo, but i dont really see how it's alignment-indicative, i think he's just glad that nobody's hounding him for talking about night kills any more (sorry ik im a bit of a bitch about that stuff). darby's frustratingly inactive, but again, i dont think it's alignment indicative, and i dont feel the need to reconsider a read which literally(?) everyone agrees on, i really do believe in the power of consensus. roden's just a hunch.

you might notice that this has implications on your alignment. which read do you disagree with?

Prolly Darby? Think I'll do a full game re-read soon since a lot of slots this game are just merging together in my head.

[Auro]

Let's lim Looker?

[Auro]

Looker, final chance, are you Ice Maf or VT?

[Auro]

LOL I love this setup.

It was a pleasure playing with all of you. Hope to see you guys around in future games!