Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[RH9]

Isn't Famous like Superstar, X-Result like X-Hit, Cursed like Flying, and Obsessive like Fixed?

[RH9]

Oh, I see.

[RH9]

Should Compulsive Multitasking roles format their list in a way which makes it more clear on who they target each night?

[RH9]

I don't see why actions should ever be submitted in a way that makes their meaning ambiguous. Could you give me an example of what you mean?

If the list is:

• X1
  
• X2
  
• X3
  
• X4

And the player was a Town Compulsive Multitasking Doctor Cop, the mod might think that the first two people are for the Doctor and Cop actions respectively even though the player might have intended otherwise.

[RH9]

Wait, implo.
Why is Role Investigation seperate from Action Investigation for Normal games?

[RH9]

I see.

[RH9]

what happens if 2 lazy traitors are the last scum players alive? would they both be endgamed, or would 1 be endgamed while the other joins the scum PT?

I don't think Traitors are allowed to join the scum PT in a Normal game, so it'd be the former.

[RH9]

what happens if 2 lazy traitors are the last scum players alive? would they both be endgamed, or would 1 be endgamed while the other joins the scum PT?

I don't think Traitors are allowed to join the scum PT in a Normal game, so it'd be the former.

uuh... about that, viewtopic.php?t=90861
Turns out a lazy Traitor that gain access to the PT when they're the last wolf standing is normal apparently.

Still, in the 2 lazy Traitor case, I still think they're both endgamed, since when the Traitor endgame ability would trigger the lazy modifier would not have any effect (since there would still be 2 scum left)

Oh.
I stand corrected, then.

[RH9]

Any consideration on these?

I don't think Sensor is Normal. Its reliance on wagons feels way too abNormal to me.

Vote-Activated also doesn't feel Normal to me. A reason that Supersaint isn't Normal is that it makes vote order relevant, and Vote-Activated makes vote order relevant.

I agree with this for similar reasons.

[RH9]

Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!

As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?

[RH9]

Regarding 919, I would say add Informant, Famous, X-Result and Obsessive. (Maybe also Skimmer?)
Charging feels too vague to be Normal (though it'd a good modifier for other games) and I'm ambivalent on Cursed.

[RH9]

Normal proposals I've found here and weren't suggested by me that I think could be Normal, and my thoughts on them:

Vain - Possibly a good idea I think? We have both Loyal and Disloyal.
Publishing - Seemingly good idea, but only works for investigative roles and might work strangely for Checkers. I feel this doesn't detract heavily from Normals, however this would necessarily cause the moderator to post information in the game thread. Also note that Publishing Informed can exist!
X-Result - The generalization of a X-Shot modifier that only depletes on a specific type of investigation result. If the greylist comes back, this would easily be on the greylist.
Gutless - Somewhat interesting, but would make Doctor interesting. This was originally suggested by creating a wiki page and saying the modifier was Normal, however.

Out of these, I think Vain, Gutless and X-Result seem like good ideas.
Publishing could work, I guess?

[RH9]

Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!

As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?

Isn't it actually the same then? Would return positive on (Vanilla Mafia) and on (PR Town), which is the same as 1164

isnt that the same thing as a Thaumaturge but with inverted results

Technically yes, but a SK PR will get a Negative from Thaumaturge but a Positive from Logician.
Same with Vanilla SK, which gets a Positive from Thaumaturge but a Negative from Logician.

[RH9]

Any chance that roles/modifiers that can pierce, or protect against, blocks be normalized?

Strong-Willed -- (modifier) modified ability can't be roleblocked or protected from
Epicurean -- all non-killing ability targeting you can't fail
Willbooster -- your target's actions can't be blocked

There is precedent, as Strongman is essentially the result of putting a strong-willed modifier on the factional kill

I think that the suggestions are good ideas.
Edit: I misread the variant (which used to be the standard version) as the current standard version.

[RH9]

Random thing, though.
Should

Role Guard

be Normal?
It's the equivalent to Security Guard for Role Watcher.
And the latter two are both Normal.

[RH9]

Ninja is a modifier, though interpreting the factional kill modifying version of Ninja as a passive role is a fair intepretation

I'm wary of modifying the factional kill (I'm the one who gave names to roles capable of using modified factional kills)... if a factional kill must be modified and there is no option to use an unmodified factional kill, that doesn't feel Normal to me.

I'd name the modifier Stealthy, though Silent is a good name as well. Ninja would be the passive role that modifies the factional kill.

Speaking of modifiers, I'd name the modifier version of Strongman Unstoppable, with Juggernaut being the non-gendered Strongman as a role alias.

pedit: yeah, I don't exactly agree that active and passive roles are separate domains considering you can turn a passive role into an active role with the Activated modifier and you can turn an active role into a passive role with the Reflexive modifier (note that the Reflexive modifier is not Normal!).

i would also like to propose Astral as an alternative rename, from Town of Salem. i think it is a little too "flavorful" to be used as a generic modifier, though.

"Silent" to me also feels like it'd do something else other than hide from actioncops.

I agree with this.
And

nth Astral

.

[RH9]

Could we have a modifier created that removes all modifiers/PRs from a player at X-Day?

For example, a Bulletproof that loses its Bulletproof status at Day 4?

This sounds interesting.

[RH9]

Also, is it possible to have a Cop that sees both alignment AND role, or would that bee too powerful? It'd of course be balanced in Normal review.

That's basically a

Combined Faction Cop Role Cop

.

Faction Cop

(which sees alignment but not role) could be added to the whitelist, if there is enough need and interest.

[RH9]

no, Modifier Cop is not a Normal role yet.

but yeah Modifier Cop definitely could be Normal imo

+1

[RH9]

Also, is it possible to have a Cop that sees both alignment AND role, or would that bee too powerful? It'd of course be balanced in Normal review.

That's basically a

Combined Faction Cop Role Cop

.

Faction Cop

(which sees alignment but not role) could be added to the whitelist, if there is enough need and interest.

True, BUT... "Combined Faction Cop Role Cop" is wordy

and could be replaced

with one or two words.

I see.

[RH9]

[snip]

Out of the roles in the list, the ones that I support the most are:

1. '
   Loyalblocker
   ', though maybe call it a
   Patriot
   ?
   
2. '
   Follower-Cop
   ', though maybe call it an
   Category Cop
   ?
   
3. Neighborhood Cop
   
   
4. Universal Finder, though as
   Role Guesser
   
   
5. Modifier Cop
   
   
6. VIP
   
   
7. Marker
   
   
8. Role Guard
   
   
9. Peacekeeper
   
   
10. Informant
    
    
11. Willbooster
    
    
12. Unnamed role 1
    
    
13. [role]-
    Immune
    
    
14. Bomb
    
    
15. Superstar
    
    
16. Narcissistic
    (instead of
    Listening
    and
    Careful
    ; it makes personal abilities passively target self)
    
17. Moonlight Dancer
    
    
18. Gunless
    
    
19. Marked
    
    
20. [role]-
    Disabler
    
    
21. Famous
    
    
22. Epicurean
    
    
23. Masochist
    (instead of
    Vulnerable
    ; it makes killing abilities targeting you always succeed)
    
24. Unstoppable
    
    
25. Sacrificial
    
    
26. Noticeable
    
    
27. Regretful
    
    
28. Vain
    
    
29. Sleepy
    
    
30. Provoked
    
    
31. Recharged
    
    
32. Procrastinating
    
    
33. Publishing
    
    
34. X-Result
    
    
35. Obsessive
    
    
36. Temporary
    
    
37. Impersonal

[RH9]

Holy shit that's a lot. I like.

Who sets about approving them?

I think Ausuka.

[RH9]

For [role]-Disabler: My preference for [role]-Locked instead of [role]-Disabler is because [role]-Locked feels much more Normal. [role]-Disabler has the Normalcy concern of making roles not function without it being clear why the role is not functioning.

True.
I change my support from

Disabler

to

Locked

, then.

[RH9]

Could we please add a role that negates or removes a/all modifiers from their target?

Say a PR that can strip away "Bulletproof" status. Like a Scum "Interceptor" or "Hacker." Something that can manipulate to remove a beneficial modifier.

That sounds like TLich's Renegade.
Edit: Actually, I misread.

[RH9]

Your idea could work as a variation of Vanillaiser.

[RH9]

This inflexibility is a weakness, not a strength.

In time I'll run large themed games.

I think that's the intention of Normal games.
Themes and Opens allow more flexibility but Normals generally tend to be more similar to 'regular' Mafia. (i.e. no modular mechanics like items)

[RH9]

I mean, yeah, there SHOULD be a main section that focuses solely on strict Normal play that doesn't scare away newbies.

I just think there should be like a second main section between Strict Normal and Fullblown Themed, and that it would have its own defining constraints as well.

That sounds like pretty much like a significant portion of current Large Theme games.
In that, because Normals have been generally pretty restrictive in mechanics, there are a significant amount of Large Themes that are Normal in the base of the setup but non-Normal mechanics-wise.
Take Prism's Invictus Redux as an example. Roles are almost all Normal but mechanics aren't.

[RH9]

Another example would be Datisi's large themes.
(If my memory isn't messed up.)

[RH9]

And bianco's Mini Theme, Blood over Utopia.

[RH9]

Another example would be Datisi's large themes.
(If my memory isn't messed up.)

pretty much, yeah. other than an occasional doublevoter or "if you target a hood you join the hood" role, my large themes are mostly just Spicy Normals, role-wise.

I'd like to see a Large Normal with individual players earning $$$ each Night to buy actions or information, but I don't want to make a whole honking complicated Themed game

oh hey this premise kinda sounds like my theme games.


while i love all kinds of spectrums, i don't think shoving a 3rd category in here would be helpful. the kinds of games that can be run in the theme queue are *already* a spectrum. like, if you want to run this game, you don't have to make it "more complicated" to have it run in the theme queue. look at fakegod's theme games, those are usually much simpler than your average normal.

like... what's with this aversion to modding a theme game? you don't have to make is super complicated.

My plan was to run a mini Normal and then a Large Normal to shake off the rust of game-modding, and then get into modding Large Themed games.

What I like are truly complicated games but I don't particularly want to do so through power but with information, which is why I like Informed statuses, Neighborhoods, various factions, etc. Like a very intricate, detail-oriented game with lots of subtlety.

Then can I interest you in running a theme game together? I very much enjoy modding these kinds of games and I have some ideas that could make it a great theme game.

Going on a tangent, I can help review if you want.

[RH9]

Though, TBH my views are more or less aligned with Datisi's.

[RH9]

I am not sure that is a priority most users share.

Agreed.

[RH9]

i have a question: can day x informed roles learn about past game events?

for example: day 2 informed townie [you know that a mafia rolecop performed the kill on night 1]

I don't think so as Informed messages are generally prepared in the design stage.
(Also, preparing an Informed message midgame doesn't feel like something that belongs in the Normal Queue.)

[RH9]

But, leaning into that, can one have a day/night x Informed that receives one of several

preprepared

infos conditionally on events that happened before x (and that possibly reference such events)?

Like, say, "Night 1 Informed (If X is still alive, 'X is a VT'. Otherwise, 'Y is a VT')"

I'm guessing that this would lean into it having an additional

Conditional

modifier (which isn't Normal).

[RH9]

Though, I feel like a good rule of thumb for Informed is it will be true, regardless of what happens after the design stage.
At least, if you want to be certain it's Normal and not leaning towards the border like with conditional messages.