Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[mastina]

I feel lied to.

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

[mastina]

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts.

One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot.

Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it.

Phone posting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

[mastina]

(It'll be VERY obvious come massclaim time. And, yes, my role should absolutely not be claimed before that, barring one VERY specific, unlikely to happen, scenario.)

[mastina]

(I also have some scumreads and townreads already but unless I quote them one at a time, can't do that while phoneposting. So, will do at home.)

[mastina]

I should mention: A50 is one of the townreads.
(Taly is another.)

[mastina]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.

There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wincon in at least one game.

[mastina]

BTW even if A50s theory isn't correct, I buy that RCE is scum in at least one game. House, not as sure on, but definitely possible. Ditto, RR. Dunn, give me time.

[mastina]

BTW right now, I think that A50 and Lady Chloe. (Taly) are town in all three games.

They're the only two I trust in all 3, at least right now.

Also, phone's bugging out, so prolly last post until I am home.

[mastina]

BTW even if A50s theory isn't correct, I buy that RCE is scum in at least one game. House, not as sure on, but definitely possible. Ditto, RR. Dunn, give me time.

Waffling on me is kinda weird from you.

You've been calling me scum every game. Tired of being wrong, or...?

I mean, kinda?

Can explain better when home, promise.
But, I learn from experience.

[mastina]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.

There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wincon in at least one game.

You rolled scum, didn't you?

Nope! I'm not scum in any of the three games.

I'm pretty sure that you are in at least one tho.

[mastina]

BTW T3 and Delete MIGHT be town in all three games, hard to tell for sure.
They're definitely town in at least 2/3 tho, so. Not limming them D1.

[mastina]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.

There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wincon in at least one game.

Now if I didn't know better.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all. I think that your theory has merit, but I only have one vote.

And in this game, there could be up to 12 players to vote. It's realistically closer to ~6-8, but I can only vote 1.

[mastina]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.

There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wincon in at least one game.

Now if I didn't know better.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all. I think that your theory has merit, but I only have one vote.

And in this game, there could be up to 12 players to vote. It's realistically closer to ~6-8, but I can only vote 1.

BTW ji can doubly love that I am not scum in all 3 games.
The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or read able pts as at Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.
7
The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is g litchy.
Int literally keeps spaxzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

[mastina]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.

There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wbincon in at least one game.

Now if I didn't know better.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all. I think that your theory has merit, but I only have one vote.

And in this game, there could be up to 12 players to vote. It's realistically closer to ~6-8, but I can only vote 1.

BTW ji can doubly love that I am not scum in all 3 games.
The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or read able pts as at Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.
7
The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is g litchy.st
Int literally keeps spaxzing out, proof being: this post.
Sn
I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

basically, see all the glitches my phone inserted into this po
St?
H
Any account posting in the plast 7 hours could NOT be me as a consequence, as the eir posts would look like this one.

[mastina]

Also fuck y'all that took SIX Pedits, to post.
On A GLITCHY ASD PHONE.

[mastina]

I bet t3 rolled scum in all of the games

As I said before, by now, I think that T3 is town in at least 2/3 of the games, if not all three.
You are also on that list of being town in at least 2/3 if not all three.

I believe Lady Chloe/Taly and Almost50 to be town in all three.

Ircher I'm

fairly

sure is scum in at least one--if this were him as town in all three, I'd expect it to be obvious from his play. It's not.

Amy Dunne is a gigantic null, and possible scum in at least one scumgame, but not to the same confidence as Ircher.

Hello

This is scum in at least 1/3 games and might even be 2/3--was my vote for a damn good reason. This is also NOT MegAzumarill as town here.

Ego

Cheeky might be scum in at least one game but it's hard to say for sure--I rate her at about Amy Dunne levels of gigantic null, in that I have other scumreads that are stronger (Ircher, MegAzumarill, and RCEnigma are all on the top of that list), so not a top priority, but not a town-in-all-three-games read. There is an asterisk to CheekyTeeky tho, but I don't want to elaborate right now.

I still understand nothing. Expect no change in that regard.

I genuinely don't think that RCEnigma is town in all three games. He's definitely scum in at least one, maybe even two. If I wasn't voting MegAzumarill, I'd be voting RCE.

Reading more of Amy Dunne's posts, I do get the impression of "scum in at least one game", but not to the extent of Ircher, MegAzumarill, and RCEnigma.

So, across all three games, my page two* readslist looks something like:

*(not truly page two as this does take some of my knowledge from future pages into account while I was phoneposting)

Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky (yes this is null, I only have four townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 8 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 4 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4 townreads is actually

precisely

the spot I

want

to be at)

Dunnstral
Amy Dunne
Radical Rat
House

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

Approximately.

[mastina]

@A50, why are you so certain that scum are in Dunn, RR and RCE? How can you determine three scum without any flips?

Okay so Amy Dunne's definitely a scum in a game.

VOTE: Amy Dunne

For the record, I currently get the vibe that House is town in 2/3 games--not quite as town as T3 or Dwlee because I think there's a very real chance that Almost50's theory had merit to it and he's scum in the third, but I legit think that if he flips scum in one game, he's town in both the others and would basically be a hard-clear.

(I should mention that I legit think that Ircher, RCE, and Meg have a very high chance of actually being scum in

multiple

games. Probably 2/3 but I legit think that they're scum in

at least

one game.)

So like:
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3
House*

CheekyTeeky (yes this is null, I only have four+* townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 8 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 4 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)

Dunnstral
Radical Rat
House*

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

[mastina]

This setup is gonna do my head in.

For the record:
I point you to a post like this for proof that RCE is

not

town in all three games. If you are town in all three of your games, then the game's not hard to wrap your head around. You're scumhunting just like normal and as you know yourself to be town in all of them, you play to your town wincon of trying to eliminate the scum.

It's

only

when you have

scum

that the game becomes more complicated. It's only when you have different alignments in your games that it becomes more of a headache in the way RCE is describing.

That, aside from how a fully-town RCE never makes a post like this in the first place.

You rolled scum, didn't you?

This is also not a town response from Ircher.

There's a

damn

good reason that my vote pool is {RCE, Ircher, MegAzumarill} and that's because I legit think that those three are all scum in

at least

one game, and that of the players in the game, they are the ones with the highest chances of actually being scum in

more

than one game.

[mastina]

Mastina, may we delight ourselves with tea and lemon cakes this evening?

I mean, if this is code for a PR, there's some that are good to target me with and some that are terrible to target me with, so depends on the nature of what tea and lemon cakes is. I'll say that, for instance: any form of Neighborizer would be S++ targeting me in either of the games with PRs for ~reasons~.

I am less concerned about your read on me and more concerned about your read on Meg who had only one post when you posted that. I find it hard to believe that one post would be so indicative of scum. @mastina

From MegAzumarill and especially given the setup?

It was.

You've also played with me before so like--why is me having a strong read off of a player's at-the-time single post something groundbreaking to you? It's not something which you saw from me when I was scum; that's something which, as far as I know, you've only seen from me as town. (Admittedly, it's explicitly null, butstill.)

Plus, Meg has since posted more than once, and Meg's posts since the first post have only strengthened my "scum in at least one game if not multiple" read there.

[mastina]

I'm trying to decide whether meta is amazing or completely useless in this game.

Meta will help you identify players that are town in all three games;
Meta will help you identify players that are scum in at least one game;
Meta will help you read a player after they flip scum in one game to see if they're still scum in others;

Overall, I'd say that meta is going to be really damn strong here, yes.

[mastina]

BTW right now, I think that A50 and Lady Chloe. (Taly) are town in all three games.

I don't get it. Why am I Town in the other 2 games? I haven't even started playing in either (I mean, theoretically I am playing in all three, but practically I've been only focused on Game 3 and haven't posted anything AI regarding the other 2).

Well, basically: precisely because you haven't even started playing in the other two.

That, plus your posts before you outed yourself as a mason in the third game--you started playing in 40 but I was townreading you even

before

post 40. Your way of playing the game tho fits with a player who has the same alignment in all three games. The way you went about it, I just don't see how you could be scum in either of the other two games.

Also, why aren't you voting one of the 4 scums of game 3?

I only have one vote--for 6-8 slots that have scum in them.

I can

maybe

get two votes going, situation depending, based on a desynch between the games. Maybe even three! But at the time I was voting, every slot was alive in every game--meaning that at the time of my vote, I only had one vote.

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

168 is literally a scum claim.

I actually disagree--there's nothing in 168 which makes it a scumclaim from RCEnigma.

Now

113

, on the other hand.
THAT post, THAT is a scumclaim from RCEnigma.

So the read's right, I just think you called the wrong post a scumclaim.

[mastina]

For my buddies though: mastina was who I attempted to shoot, so cross her off your mason lists.

Why the fuck did you shoot me after I made a post where I basically intended to say "I realize this outs me as not a mason in game 3, but..."? I realize I forgot to

actually

say that part, but like. I basically hard-claimed not-mason in game 3 by saying that I didn't have any alt account or links in my role PMs.

This does not make you town in the other 2 games

True--Radical Rat is basically a hard-null for me in the other two games. He

could

be scum, but he could be town, it's impossible to say yet.

That flip does basically nothing for me, but I guess it does move things to:

Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3
House*

CheekyTeeky (yes this is null, I only have four+* townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 8 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 4 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)
Radical Rat

Dunnstral
House*

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

[mastina]

House has DIED in the Open Game.
He was:
A Mafioso

Well that updates my readslist quite nicely as I am now sure House is town in both the remaining games!

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky (yes this is null, I only have five townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 7 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 5 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4-5 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)
Radical Rat (null in both other games)

Dunnstral

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

Updated readslist.

[mastina]

Who thinks I should out my game 3 target?

Well if your target helps narrow down the POE in other games it's to your wincon to out it; if your target doesn't help narrow down the POE in other games then it's not to your wincon to out it.

As for which is which, see also: meta + players obviously not being town in all three games + players sometimes being obviously different alignments + players sometimes obviously only being scum in one game.

For instance, obviously, you still have to play to your wincon in the third game so you can't publicly just tell me how to refine my 351, but I assure you that my 351 is going to be remarkably accurate, so you can use your inside knowledge of who the final two scum are in the third game to have a better idea of who is suspect in the other two games.

[mastina]

RCEnigma has DIED in the Open Game. He was: Vanilla Town

Okay so I think that means formatting-wise, I gotta do this:
VOTE: MegAzumarill (for game C)
VOTE: RCEnigma (for A/B)

As I said--not a chance in hell RCE is town in all three games. He's scum in AT LEAST one game, maybe two. This is NOT RCE as town in all three games.

[mastina]

Actually, mastina is smart enough (and it explains why RR said he shot her in public). There's also the fact she didn't vote House when everybody was going for him. In fact I would rather her over Dunn now, but -as I said- I should be sound asleep already, so see you in a few hours (my definition of few is between 8 and 20)

You can fuck off.

I've made it quite clear that I was at work and phoneposting. And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I wasn't voting House because I only had one vote.

I now effectively have two--but at the time I only had one.

[mastina]

Dear lord what did I sign up for :/

Oh no I think Cheeky might be scum in a game.

Do I bother reading or just overwhelm silently in the corner?

It's fifteen pages and the mechanics are fairly easy to grasp, so--yes?

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

Radical Rat (null in both other games--yes this is null, I only have five townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 7 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 5 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4-5 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)

Dunnstral
CheekyTeeky

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

(it should be noted--I think Dunnstral is more town here than not, but I'm not sure he's town in all three games. He's someone I think is scum in a maximum of 1/3 games so if he flips scum anywhere I'd clear him in the other two. Cheeky looks like she got a scumgame, Amy is looking almost certainly like scum in 1-2 games, and {Ircher, RCE, Meg} are all scum in

at least

one scumgame, maybe two.)

[mastina]

Oh forgot to claim that I'm a Mason of course ^.^

Cheeky might be scum in at least one game but it's hard to say for sure--I rate her at about Amy Dunne levels of gigantic null, in that I have other scumreads that are stronger (Ircher, MegAzumarill, and RCEnigma are all on the top of that list), so not a top priority, but not a town-in-all-three-games read. There is an asterisk to CheekyTeeky tho, but I don't want to elaborate right now.

Oh I guess this would be the time to mention that my asterisk to the read was "I think Cheeky might be a mason and if so that might make her not be as scum as I thought otherwise".

[mastina]

LOL well if you were also a Mason you would have known that already so I guess you're not a triad of goodness after all

I mean I'm not a mason in the third game but I am still not scum in any game, so like. Still good anyway, just as a VT in that game.

[mastina]

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky (yes, Cheeky being a mason is enough to place her here--I'm not

sure

she's town in all three games the way I am others, but her mason claim puts her here, as the main reason I thought she might be scum was something that the alternative explanation for was her being a mason)

Radical Rat (null in both other games--yes this is null, I only have five townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 7 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 5 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4-5 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)

Dunnstral (it should be noted--I think Dunnstral is more town here than not, but I'm not sure he's town in all three games; he's someone I think is scum in a maximum of 1/3 games so if he flips scum anywhere I'd clear him in the other two)

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

[mastina]

Err, with CheekyTeeky being a mason and not a suspect of mine, small correction;

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky (yes, Cheeky being a mason is enough to place her here--I'm not sure she's town in all three games the way I am others, but her mason claim puts her here, as the main reason I thought she might be scum was something that the alternative explanation for was her being a mason)

Radical Rat (null in both other games--yes this is null, I only have five and a half townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 6-7 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 5-7 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4-6 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)

Dunnstral (it should be noted--I think Dunnstral is more town here than not, but I'm not sure he's town in all three games; he's someone I think is scum in a maximum of 1/3 games so if he flips scum anywhere I'd clear him in the other two)

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

[mastina]

Why Taly?

Gut.

Basically, Lady Chloe gives off the vibes that I'd expect from someone like me--who has basically the same thing across all three games. Start to finish, I don't really see any signs indicating a dissonance in alignments. You can literally see it on the first page of the game. Doesn't that look like a

normal

Taly game opening?

It does to me. Like, that looks like someone who is just...town. Not town in one game. Town in

all

of them. 8, 9, 11, 12, and to a lesser extent even 14. All of these have the fluidity naturalness organic flow to them that I would expect from Taly as town to have.

It legitimately, genuinely, doesn't feel like Taly got three role PMs.

It feels like Taly got

one

.

Which would basically only be possible if Taly was town across all three games.

[mastina]

Are you scum house?

Well...he

was

!

Now he's not tho!

I’d seriously like to know why House?

Because House's play was transparently and obviously the play of someone who was town in 2/3 games and scum in the third. Like, basically every post House made, made it obvious: he's town in 2/3 of the games and scum in the third. Everything he did, everything he said, it was just that vibe and very very obviously so, and quite strongly so.

I know I'm not the greatest at reading House, but like...this seemed incredibly apparent to me, that House couldn't be ALL town but also was still coming MAINLY from a town point of view. It definitely looked like he was scum in the third game...because he was! But in the other two games, his stances, pushes, opinions, views, etc., all look pretty damn strongly like they come from town.

So with him having flipped scum in one game, he's town in both the others.

House/Amy probably not SvS in any game. This is the best way to hunt Imo, through partner PoE. A50, you should be good at this iirc.

Fairly decent chance, yes, but that's because House is town in 2/3 games and while Amy's less likely scum in the third game is probably scum in one of game 1/game 2.

[mastina]

I’d seriously like to know why House? The fact the he tops Mastina’s list and he is higher than me, makes me wonder if how much stock I should put into any of Mastina’s reads unless I’m mindmelding with them myself.

That first post is so off key and slimy to me. Idk what mastina sees.

That first post from House was offkey and slimy because House was scum in game #3.

But since he has

flipped

scum in game #3, he's NOT scum in the OTHER games.

Like, I legit think that I am fairly good at estimating the number of towngames players here have, approximately.

Taly has 3 towngames; Almost50 has 3 towngames; T3 probably has at least 2 maybe 3; Dwlee has at least 2 maybe 3; House is basically confirmed to have 2/3; you have a chance at being town in all three; Dunnstral is probably town in 2/3 similar to House (with a chance at 3/3 but if I was sure of this Dunn'd be at the T3/Dwlee tier and I am explicitly not); Amy is probably sum in at least 1 game; Ircher, RCE, and Meg are all scum in at least one game with the very very real chance of being scum in 2/3 games.

I genuinely don't think I'm off the mark on any of these. I think that I legit, deadass, nailed the distribution exactly.

I just.

Feel VERY confident in these.

So like.

With House having flipped scum in game 3, I think that he's town in the other two.

[mastina]

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
1: fuck off with the idea that I am scum in game 3. I literally was HARD PUSHING MEG.
I LITERALLY GOT FOSED FOR VOTING MEG, WHO WAS SCUM THERE. You literally have no brain if you think that I hard bussed Meg.
And don't you fucking pretend that I wasn't pushing Meg.
I literally never voted anyone BUT Meg in g3.

2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too.

I tcan and will explain when home.
VOTE: Richer (g3)
VOTE: MegAzumarill

[mastina]

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts.

One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot.

Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it.

Phone posting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what roleg loses value when claimed?

Bulletproof!

The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can exo mom better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty as glitches phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

[mastina]

Now that I am dead in game C i will claim in the other two
I am a

Bulletproof Multitasking Compulsive Combined Vigilante-Voyuerizer Jailkeeper Jester

In Game B

In game A I am a

Town Simple Roleblocker.

I am 100% serious.

The bp claim is here.

I don't believe it, because *I* am bp in game two/B.

[mastina]

um.
t h
meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far.

I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.

Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of y "it a s a joke".

[mastina]

um.
t h
meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far.

I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.

Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of y "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in GAM.e two.

As for Ircher, i should remind you, one of his first posts was defending Meg FROM MY SUSPICION, so Ircher is just the final scum. of game 3 .
th
I'll be responding to everything too once home.

Suffice to say!, you can fucj off if you think that I am scum in any of the game.
I'm not.

[mastina]

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

Mastina, your mind is a Renaissance painting come to life!

If so it'd be something like this;

(I wanted to find the image used for the Democracy hydra but alas my googlese sucks.)

Usually town!Mastina has an actually townie slot that high. Like if she had maybe Cheeky or even A50 there but something’s off with House being so high. Her rationale being he was scum in 3, so he is town in everything else, based on freaking what exactly? What has he even done remotely townie? Absolutely nothing.

House has done nothing that those

unfamiliar

with house would townread.

However, House has done

boatloads

which just

screams

"town in 2/3 of the games" to me.

Like, I know, I'm not as good at reading House as I used to be--but House still has a certain methodology and posting and way of doing things and it is these specific things that I think I have a good read on him here. Like, I might've lost my ability to perfectly read House, but I legit think that I am slowly regaining it. But this game gives a kickstart because of it being three games in one, and House obviously not having a scum role PM across the board and almost certainly having it be just the one scumgame.

I still don’t understand her Ircher read but I am notoriously bad at reading him.

I however am VERY good at reading Ircher and guarantee he's scum in AT LEAST one game, if not two.

Almost certainly with MegAzumarill in at least one game, too.

(So, I suppose my "Ircher is the last scum" in game 4 read has a caveat--there's a chance he's not scum there, but he's scum with MegAzumarill in

some

game, probably the second, almost for sure.)

Mastina why do you hate me so?

I don't hate you!

It's just that I'm not scum in any of the games, you're proven scum in the third, and I think you're scum in the second, too!

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I'm like 95% sure RCE is town in all of his games.

For the record, I don't see this at all.

RCE looks like he's scum in at least one game if not two, to me.

However, I do not have the history necessary to have confidence in this read--so I am actually going to trust you on this, even tho I do not see it myself.

Why is House 100% town in both of the other games and not rr?

Flipping scum in one game does not a clear make. You may note I'm still hella suspicious of MegAzumarill in spite of the scum flip in game three and have RR as null in spite of the scum flip in game three and House as town due to the scum flip in game three.

And the reason for that is quite simple. Three different reads from three different scumflips in game three is due to what the players have posted and who the players are.

House's play in this game is transparently "town in 2/3 games, scum in the third". He oozes being his town self

overall

, just with the side of having been scum in game three. With him having thus flipped scum in game three, he is then going to be town in both the other games.

Radical Rat's play in this game is *static*. It's literally "there's nothing here that identifies it one way or another". RR's play is the definition of null. Yes, he flipped scum in game three, but I've got zero material to work with to gauge his alignment in the other games. Nothing he's posted has given any indication of how many games he's town/scum in, beit before or after his shot. There's literally just a blank pile there because that's all there is to see. RR is the definition of no read.

MegAzumarill's play in this game is pretty damn obviously "town in 1/3 games, scum in the other two". Okay, so I suppose it's

possible

for Meg to be town in 2/3 games, but Meg's play doesn't support that at all. I don't think Meg actually got 3/3 scum role PMs, but everything in Meg's play, start to finish, screams, "scum in more than one game". At every single stage, I've seen content that has made it look like Meg hasn't been town in more than one game at most, and overall it just strongly seems like Meg doesn't know how to play as town in one game (probably game one) and scum in the other two.

Which puts my readslist as:
House
RCEnigma*
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky (yes, Cheeky being a mason is enough to place her here--I'm not sure she's town in all three games the way I am others, but her mason claim puts her here, as the main reason I thought she might be scum was something that the alternative explanation for was her being a mason)

Radical Rat (null in both other games--yes this is null, I only have five and a half townreads, but, well, given the game's mechanics, I legit think that we probably have ~6-8 scum so like, do the math; I am town in all and if there's 6-7 players who're scum in at least one game, that leaves only 5-7 other players who'd be town in all games, so in the case of this game, ~4-6 townreads is actually precisely the spot I want to be at)

Dunnstral (it should be noted--I think Dunnstral is more town here than not, but I'm not sure he's town in all three games; he's someone I think is scum in a maximum of 1/3 games so if he flips scum anywhere I'd clear him in the other two)

Amy Dunne

Ircher
MegAzumarill

*entirely trusting T3's read

At this stage I think that {Dunnstral, Amy Dunne, Ircher, MegAzumarill} legitimately has a very high chance of containing all the scum in all the games.

[mastina]

Eliminate down the following list: Dunnstral --> mastina --> T3 --> Ircher --> Dwlee99 --> Amy --> Cheeky --> Chloe. Obviously, we skip limming the masons, but we do so in a careful manner so that scum don't abuse this.

Btw have y'all played with Ircher before?

'Cause I have and I'm pretty damn sure that this isn't him as town.

Again.

He

could

be town in one game, maybe

maybe

(but legit genuinely unlikely) town in two.

But he's definitely scum in

at least

one game, and probably just two.

He tops my suspect charts for game #3 as a MegAzumarill partner, altho I do admit, that could be him being scum with Meg in game #2.

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in.

I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

.
There's multiple reasons for this.
I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but.
I don't think it was actually meant as a joke.

I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.
I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

But more than that.

I don't think that a town-Meg in game two actually makes the joke in the first place.
At least not with being serious in game #1.

If Meg were joking in

both

games, I could see it as

maybe

not indicative of game alignment (altho I feel the need to emphasize that I don't think Meg would joke), but the claim in game #1 looks to be dead serious and is actually a thing that I would fully expect to be a very real role Jingle would put into a Normal. So I frankly wouldn't believe that the roleclaim in game#1 is a joke.

So if the roleclaim in game #1 isn't a joke, why would the claim in the second game be a joke?

I genuinely think that the claim came from a position of both scum information, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

[mastina]

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

[mastina]

I've made it quite clear that I was at work and phoneposting. And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

But you DID vote someone else at that time. You were present, you were reading and you casted a vote. Just NOT on the leading wagon on SCUM!HOUSE

I was present and casted a vote alright.

I was not reading.

On my phone, with how glitchy it is, I can read and be offline, or I can post and not read--posting is mutually exclusive with reading.

I cannot read the game while posting on my phone with how glitchy it is;
I cannot post in the game while reading offline.

I didn't even have any ability to see that there

was

a wagon on House.

I voted a scumread and I did what I could to comment on the game but when you only have half an hour to post on a glitchy ass phone that hits random buttons at random times and these can place text in random spots, delete text in random spots, cause you to lose your entire post, cause you to hit submit early, cause you to fuck up bbcode (which is itself hard to type on the phone), and even getting a post flawless eats up a lot of time...
...There's only so much you can do.

Even if my phone WASN'T glitchy-as-fuck it'd be hard as the 30 minutes of freetime is subject to me having nothing work-related in that time. But with the phone glitches, I can maybe make a couple good posts per hour, and anything beyond that is just luck. I can't guarantee reading, I can't guarantee posting, phoneposting is explicitly going above and beyond the call to duty because I genuinely just...can't do much on my fucky-ass phone.

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

[mastina]

Also, "Simple Roleblocker" is a dumb role if you think about

Well it can't block VTs or Goons but it can still block scum PRs. That's precisely the type of role that I think Jingle puts in a Normal and the precise "Yeah this is a Jingle role" to the claim in game #1 is why I think that MegAzumarill's claim in game #2 was not in fact the joke people assume it to be.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

[mastina]

Jsyk, if you can tell people to “fuck off” for from ypov for apparently shading you? then I can return the favor for this bs read for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You don’t have any more right to be outraged fmpov than I do.

Actually I do--

I don't tell players who've never played with me to fuck off when they scumread me.

After all, they haven't played with me before, they lack the baseline for me.

Telling people to fuck off is reserved for those who

have

played with me--because they

should

fucking know better.

As far as I know, I lack experience with you--and thus, you don't have the same ability to tell me this because I lack the baseline for you.

Mastina I'd love you to explain what made you Sr me in game B

Well basically your play screams scum in 2/3 games through and through and has since the beginning and still does.

And your way of handling game B makes it very strongly look like scum in game #2.

A

Also if you think there's some truth to my claims why would you try to lim a PR.

It's a bit unfortunate, but if the cost of a dead scum D1 in game #2 is the loss of a very weak situational PR in game #1, I'll take the trade. Ideally you don't want to sacrifice one towngame for the sake of another towngame, but on D1, we're probably going to

have

to--unless there's a player scum in both games 1 AND 2 (which is doubtful), we can't eliminate scum in one without eliminating town in another.

It'll obviously be different on D2 onward, but as far as I can tell, there's no way with the vote thresholds identical to eliminate in game one without eliminating in game two and vice versa. So we will ALWAYS lose a town in ONE game in order to kill a scum the other on D1.

Eliminating scum D1 in a mini theme usually beats eliminating scum D1 in a mini Normal to me, so...

VOTE: Ircher
VOTE: MegAzumarill
(tempted to leave the Ircher vote on all three honestly)

[mastina]

Bang Bang. A Win Condition has been achieved.
I should really go do something productive.

You fuckers have NOBODY to fucking blame but yourselves.

DID I NOT FUCKING SAY.

DID I FUCKING NOT FUCKING SAY.

THAT AMY WAS SCUM IN AT LEAST ONE FUCKING GAME.

DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU THAT I NEVER FUCKING BUS MEG HERE.
DID I NOT FUCKING HARD TOWNSLIP BY NOT BEING AWARE OF THE FUCKING NATURE OF THE SCUM/MASONS IN GAME THREE.

DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU YOU FUCKERS COULD FUCK OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING AM.

You fucking OWE me big here because that loss is on YOU fuckers.
I was sleeping, sure!

But do you think I wouldn't have instantly shot?

I'm MASTINA.
I'm fucking DEADWEIGHT AS SCUM.

I take the FIRST FUCKING SHOT for my team.

Not the fucking last shot.

And you fuckers if you had a fucking brain would've critically analyzed that.

But noooooo.

You HAD to do the fucking impulsive thing.

So fuck off with accusations of me being scum EVER again and hammering me when I'm fucking sleeping.

Also:
Since Ircher flipped town in game 3, that means Ircher is scum with MegAzumarill in game two.

[mastina]

OH MY GOD DID WE ACTUALLY LOSE THIS AFTER ALL THAT

And WHOSE fault was that?

Was it mine, for yaknow...sleeping?

Or was it maybe the people who fucking IGNORE MY POSTS and what I say in them?

[mastina]

VOTE: mastina

She's scum in at least one of these games.

I'm town in all three.

Ircher on the other hand is scum in at

least

one of them if not two.

My vote's going to either be on MegAzumarill or Ircher--those are the only acceptable votes imo.

[mastina]

I agree with ircher bigly

Fuck off, Dwlee.

I'm ticked enough that I got eliminated in ONE game.

I'm not going down when I have been putting in more effort than ever before in all three games.

Also I'd it wasn't obvious I'm not seriously claiming in either remaining game

I'm dead serious.

MegAzumarill is scum in game #2.
Ircher is scum with MegAzumarill in game #2 and might be scum in game #1.

Given that, though, I'm actually going to:
VOTE: Ircher

Chance to kill scum in 2/2 games > basically guaranteed 1/2.

[mastina]

I misjudged you Amy. Forgive me.

I will reserve judgement there until Amy flips in all three games as my read remains "could be scum in any game, but not strongly enough to be sure".

We should 100% be eliminating one of MegAzumarill or Ircher for the remaining games as they're basically guaranteed scum here.

But Amy remains

possible

scum in the remaining games.

[mastina]

I'd love mastina to explain it and why specifically in game B

Because you're not playing as scum in 3/3 games but are playing as scum in 2/3 and your play matches scum in game #2 better than it does in game #1.

Is anyone going to point out I am being voted out by the demon lord

I saw it--I don't care.

The demon lord did not surprise!-lolhammer you.

As that's the optimal play for an obviously scum role, that means any other usage of it is suboptimal.

In fact, the usage of it on you is actually damning for you.

If the scum wanted to use the Demon Lord to kill a town player, they should've waited until a town player was at L-1 and used the demon lord then.

Using it before a player is at L-1 thus means that scum are instead opting to let the town know about it--and by having it vote you, that's wifom to dissuade people from voting you.

In other words: the vote on you from the demon lord is actually proof that you're scum.

[mastina]

I am still VERY sus of the mastina/House duo being paired as scum in another game, but I will lay off for now because there's a slender chance they're -say- Masons or even neighbours instead.

I've zero ties to House aside from not being a fucking idiot at reading the game and the game's mechanics.

House is town but if you doubt me you can go ahead and eliminate me--

On the condition that after you do, you fucking shut up about me and let me be as fucking smug as I want because I will have fucking EARNED the smugness.

[mastina]

This choice of Ircher tells me he's not scum with House in either of the 2 games.

Also Amy is not scum with House in the remaining 2 games.

That'd be because

nobody

is scum with House because he's town in both.

[mastina]

Mastina, town won because of T3's misfire.

Yes but I didn't know that when I was posting.

I do now.

But I didn't.

And just because they won doesn't mean I cannot be fucking pissed that you fucking mislimmed me while I was sleeping that game--it is a show of a (lack of) integrity.

Also need I remind you that I am at, what, L-2 now in both remaining games?

From "mastina is scum in 1/3 games" 'logic' that nobody backs up because there isn't any fucking logic had in a bullshit statement like that which goes contrary to everything?

I still have a right to be fucking furious here and I am enacting that right until the only votes on me are from scum.

[mastina]

Love getting cursed at for... winning

I have the right to curse at you for fucking voting me out both in game three and AFTER SEEING THAT I WAS TOWN THERE then deciding to vote me in BOTH THE REMAINING GAMES.

In spite of, yaknow.

Maybe.

Just maybe.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

I've been solving

all three

games from the

onset

. I've not been solving one game; I've been solving ALL of them. My reads are cross-game applying to ALL of them. So if you see me fucking flip town in game 3 after being fucking wrong there and then go on to proceed to VOTE ME IN BOTH REMAINING GAMES, I do in fact get to say:

Fuck. off.

[mastina]

You're town in precisely two because you are doing your standard wallposts, but at the same time, I can see you are pushing an agenda.

The agenda was attempting to get fucking nightkilled in game #2 by being fucking bulletproof and knowing that, via being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't truly die in either of the other two. As in, due to being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't have my voice removed in game #1.

The

only

way to get rid of me would be via town idiocy in fucking eliminating a fucking BULLETPROOF. (That or a scum strongman but like--forcing scum to use the strongman > doing the fucking scum's work for them.)

The question is which game of 1/2 you are town in and which one you are scum in.

I'm not scum in ANY of the games because I fucking hard-townslipped in a way that I was fucking incapable of doing if I were scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Plus, you fucking KNOW my meta.

You fucking KNOW I wouldn't counterclaim a role as scum;

You fucking KNOW I WOULD counterclaim a role as town seeing it and rushing to do so--because I've done so before.

Even if you believe this, it is still pretty poor form to immediately jump to counterclaim. You could have waited until you knew all the facts; it wasn't like you were in danger or anything.

This critique is proof that Ircher does not believe I am actually scum.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

First, you are assuming scum are playing optimally.

Yeah and if I was scum in game #2 no fucking shit I'd use the role optimally.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless.

You're also assuming that the vote comes from scum.

An unannounced unclaimed vote on the lead wagon?

Seems a fairly safe bet to me!

Scum might vote themselves to "clear" themselves, or maybe they would in fact use it on a townie.

If they were going to use it on a townie, they'd use it as a hammer.

From experience, I know that when scum have an extra vote and

don't

use it as a hammer, they almost ALWAYS use it to vote themselves to try and make themselves look more town.

Speaking of which:
VOTE: MegAzumarill
Back to voting here.

[mastina]

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

You said it yourself: just because you flip town in one game has very little bearing on your alignment in the other games.

That's basically the opposite of what I've been saying?

Players' play in all games is influenced by their alignment in all of the games.

Someone flipping scum in one game can, situationally: clear them in the remaining games (House, T3), or have no bearing on their alignment in the other games (RR, MegAzumarill).

Someone flipping town in one game can, situationally, clear them in all the games (Almost50, Lady Chloe, trusting-T3-RCE), or have no bearing on their alignment in other games (don't have this memorized but give me a bit), or can actually hard-condemn them as being scum in another game.

Players' play in games is a reflection of their alignment in

all

of the games.

And I have been playing to my fucking town meta in ALL of them because guess what? Not scum in any of them.

That I wasn't playing with an agenda was already proven in game #3.

It would also be proven if I was fucking mislimmed in both games 1 and 2 because I am not fucking scum in all three and transparently so.

[mastina]

mastina thats still not a reason to why I'm scum.

It isn't slam-dunk in of itself but piled onto this

still

not being your town meta, combined with everything else, it's a fairly safe bet!

You are NOT playing to your town meta--even after having flipped scum in game three.

Therefore, you are scum in at least 1/2 of the remaining games.

You made a joke claim that was not a joke specifically for game #2 (compared to the far more plausible role from game #1).

You have a scum vote on you when the optimal usage of a scum vote is to hammer a townie and using it before a hammer is almost always meant as "scum are voting this person, we should not vote them" when said person is usually just scum, using the vote to try and dissuade a wagon on them.

Ircher has basically been hard-defending you from the onset from my accusation in spite of the accusation already having proven to be correct in game 3 and continues to do so even now.

It adds up.

[mastina]

mastina is demon lord
Likely personal

Proven false by voting timings btw. You can look at the VCs and see that my vote was on MegAzumarill way way way WAY before the Demon Lord vote appeared--and in fact, the Demon Lord vote appeared during a time I was offline pretty sure. (I'd need to doublecheck that.)

Why is mastina assuming that it is a scum ability?

Why don't you try reading my posts to find out? I already explained why, so if you're not being a lazy bum and actually read my posts you'd be able to find out precisely why I am assuming it is. (I'd link it to you right now, but no--I'm a vindicative bitch. It's there. And if you didn't know it was there, that's proof you haven't read my posts. So I'm not going to give you the precise post so you're forced to read all of mine to find out.)

Mastina is either very insightful on me or the opposite.

You'd think that the two would be mutually exclusive, but as it turns out, actually, no, they are not in fact mutually exclusive and the two can and do in fact coexist.

I don't know how Mastina approaches reading you as either alignment if it's attempted pocketing you're worried about

I'll be honest if Lady Chloe was playing on Taly I might not be townreading them, or at least not as strongly so--Taly is not posting in the style/way I would expect a town-Taly to have done so...

...But Taly isn't playing on Taly, now, is he? He's playing on Lady Chloe. And as he is playing on Lady Chloe, "not posting in the style/way I would expect town-Taly to" means nothing because Taly isn't the account playing even if it's the same person behind the screen.

So instead, I combine my general tells with general insight into Taly's mind filtered through the lens of "this isn't Taly as Taly but is still Taly", in that while the style/way may change, the general content and vibe is still Taly. By this crossreference of general tells with Taly methodology tells that apply even with a different style of posting, I formed the conclusion that Taly was town in all the games, as Taly didn't seem to have any sort of dissonance whatsoever.

And then on top of all of

that

, I added in my ultimate secret weapon when it comes to townreading Taly:

Spoiler: The strongest reason of all for townreading Taly in all three games

Honestly, I just like playing with Taly and just like Taly so even if I didn't have legitimate reasons to townread Taly (which I do, see above), I'd still townbin Taly at least on D1 anyway just from wanting Taly to be town, hoping that Taly is town, and figuring that there'd be better eliminations to make on D1 even if I was wrong on Taly being town.

Also, you do realize a simple roleblocker would 100% be a troll role and would in fact not work on scum PRs.

Misspoke.
Simple = works on Vanillas;
Roleblocker = blocks.

So it does have utility--at blocking scum goons.

Jokes are so suspicious these days. *Looks at MegA*

From some players and on some things, unironically yes.

MegAzumarill is not the type of person to make that joke as town and even if Meg was, then the TYPE of joke and the content of it makes it come from scum.

OK.. now, please give me a summary (and I emphasize on the word

summary

) of why Meg and/or Ircher are scum in either game. NO WALLPOSTING FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IN. Just a short paragraph on each.

Meg is scum because this isn't Meg's towngame and the Demon Lord vote on Meg is scum voting scum; read my bloody posts to find out why;
Ircher is scum because Ircher has been defending Meg from the getgo--from my very first suspicion on Meg, Ircher has come to Meg's defense. Also, this isn't Ircher's towngame.

What does this even mean?? How does scum play change between the two games when we don't even know what the exact setup on either is??

You said not to answer it but I will answer it partially anyway.

Players can still show differences in the different games by their overall vibes and treatment and what they are pushing/doing in which games. In the case of MegAzumarill, it manifested in the "joke" claim post most strongly. All of Meg's posts say "scum in one game, town in another", but the joke post served as a distinguishing factor solving for which was which. Add in the Demon Lord vote being scum voting Meg to try and dissuade us from wagoning Meg and you get even more.

And you know this how?

I know it because I can tell House wasn't town in all three games but also was more town than not--he was scum in game 3 and thus would be town in the others. House's posts are

mostly

his town meta--mostly. Not quite tho. And that 'not quite' is entirely centric/revolving around the third game.

House's posts are transparently posts from someone who was town in 2/3 games and scum in the third.
We know the scum game so that means the other two are town games, because that's what House's posts indicate: an alignment mostly town but with one scumgame in the mix to prevent House from having been fully town the entire time.

I don’t understand what Mastina is seeing in Ircher, he seems pretty townie so far.

That's the thing though.
Ircher as town usually doesn't seem pretty townie to most people--I'm usually one of the

only

players who can read Ircher as town. Like, Ircher is usually low-hanging fruit, one of the most-appetizing mislims to make, never really townread by the town, but still looking obvtown to me.

The Ircher of this game is the exact opposite: not low-hanging fruit at all, not an appetizing mislim to make, is townread by the town, and looks absolutely not town at all to me.

I meant it when I said a minimum of 1/3 scumgames for him and quite possibly 2/3.

[mastina]

Yo.
PhoNeposting from work (well, technically, work begins an hour from now, but I am in my car AT work, so.) To say:

With this being the only game that I am alive in, I could use a cheap, but effective, method of basically clearing myself.
It's ALMOST against site rules, but is gray enough that I can get away with it for two reasons:
1: I'm not taking screenshots of my alibi, and:
2: Even if I did, there's theoretical workarounds.

Basically:
I deliberately haven't logged into mafiascum since before the night began.
Proof of this can be found in my profile, mastina.
It'll update about half an hour from now to show now as my last visit, but RIGHT NOW, it should show my last visit as being pre Meg hammer.

Obviously, this doesn't hard clear me.
I could have talked to my scumbuddies about our plan before the night, and Jingle even accepts early submission of night actions.
My scumbuddies could submit night actions entirely without my input.
Or, for game two, I could talk to and submit night actions right now in spite of how infuriatingly difficult that'd be on my glitchy ass phone. (There's either 6 or 8 hours until the game two deadline. I wanted to make this post circa 5 minutes before deadline, but I obviously might be busy with work at the time, so I sadly must weaken my own alibi by posting said 6-8 hours earlier.)

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

[mastina]

(Will of course do proper catch up when home. I obviously have things to say about the Meg elimination, but can't on my phone while working.)

[mastina]

(And yes, I did feel the need to resort to this. I am not being eliminated as a fucking bulletproof again. It's happened before and I am determined to make it never happen again. I could have obviously cleared myself if Meg flipped scum, but since Meg did not, I need to find and eliminate an actual scum in order to actually clear myself.)

[mastina]

(Phoneposting means no link, but y'all can check out Tales of You, a Large Theme, to see why I am so adamant that I not get mislimmed here. I know that I can win both remaining games passively just by being unkillable in game number two. I will eventually identify all 3 scum in both games. But I can't do that if I am dead. And since I can't die in game two except to the elimination, I need to not be eliminated. Thus, every. Trick. In. The. Book.

That said, my play plus my huge tpwnslip should've told y'all that I am town anyway, but since SOME folks aren't using critical thinking skills, gotta go the extra mile here.)

[mastina]

You know you can hide active status right

Of courcs I know.

If I wanted to hide activity, I would.

Butyv why the fuck would I want to?

I WANT peoplebto know
TheEXACT time I am online and aru
Iound.

Specific ally son thati don't get bulls,hitu uaccusations against me.e s
Io
People have accused me of lurking in a scumputh before. A lack of being online makes such accusations farb less credible.

[mastina]

You know you can hide active status right

Of courcs I know.

If I wanted to hide activity, I would.

Butyv why the fuck would I want to?

I WANT peoplebto know
TheEXACT time I am online and aru
Iound.

Specific ally son thati don't get bulls,hitu uaccusations against me.e s
Ios
People have accused me of lurking in a scumputh before. A lack of being online makes such accusations farb less credible.

(this is why my strategy, though cheap, is technically legal. Hiding online status is optional; you need to opt into hiding it.

But it shows by default.

Meaning to site staff, deliberately letting people know when you've been online is within the rules.)

[mastina]

You know you can hide active status right

Of courcs I know.

If I wanted to hide activity, I would.

Butyv why the fuck would I want to?

I WANT peoplebto know
TheEXACT time I am online and aru
Iound.

Specific ally son thati don't get bulls,hitu uaccusations against me.e s
Ios
People have accused me of lurking in a scumputh before. A lack of being online makes such accusations farb less credible.

(this is why my strategy, though cheap, is technically legal. Hiding online status is optional; you need to opt into hiding it.

But it shows by default.

Meaning to site staff, deliberately letting people know when you've been online is within the rules.)

(I consider the truth to be myY strongest weapon regardless of my alignment. So having my last visit be public means that I cannot lie, and thus, MUST be truthful. Thus, as long as it's optional, I'll never hide my Activity.)

[mastina]

I believe Dwlee's point is more that you could have logged in, during the night, but had your active status hidden. Rendering this whole thing rather pointless.

Also, you said you can find "

all 3 scum

" in both games. Unless I'm missing something, the only setup that states how many scum there are was Game 3, in which there were four. What makes you so sure there's three in the others?

Pretty sure that hi ding actitvity doesn't work like that, but given that I have never touched that setting, I wouldn't know.

As ffor number of szcum:

Minis are Mini.
Normals ofc that size ALWAYS have three scum.
Themes ALMOST alway

[mastina]

I believe Dwlee's point is more that you could have logged in, during the night, but had your active status hidden. Rendering this whole thing rather pointless.

Also, you said you can find "

all 3 scum

" in both games. Unless I'm missing something, the only setup that states how many scum there are was Game 3, in which there were four. What makes you so sure there's three in the others?

Pretty sure that hi ding actitvity doesn't work like that, but given that I have never touched that setting, I wouldn't know.

As ffor number of szcum:

Minis are Mini.
Normals ofc that size ALWAYS have three scum.
Themes ALMOST always do.

So like the Demon Lord being a scum ability, obviously I don't KNOW, know.

But it's a fairly safe assumption!

[mastina]

Mastina died in the other game?

The Dead

(The Circle File)]MegAzumarill,

Form 1040

, sent to the Circle File D1.

The Dead

(Openly Not Breathing)]Almost50,

Towfn Mason

, was sniped D1.
Radical Rat,

Mafia Goon

, aimed poorly on D1.
House,

Mafia Goon

, lost a fight with some lead on D1.
RCEnigma,

Vanilla Town

, was falsely accused of having a secret on D1.
MegAzumarill,

Mafia Goon

, had a problem with backfiring firearms D2.
Ircher,

Vanilla Town

, was sacrificed in the name of progress D2.

Mastina,

Vanilla Town

, was absent from the Finale at the end of D3.

CheekyTeeky,

Town Mason

, was murdered on the Final Day.
Lady Chloe,

Town Mason

, was brutalized in a fit of envy on the Final Day.
T3,

Mafia Goon

, was overcome with guilt and confessed at the end of the Final Day.

Not according to this. She’s only dead in C. Only Meg and now obviously RCE are dead in more than one game.

Exactly what I thought.

Mastina, you are clearly only dead in C, so I don’t understand why you’re saying you’re alive in only one game?

I didn't?

I said that & as long as I am notb mislimmed, I can't die in all 3 gqamrs due to being bp in game 2.c

[mastina]

You know you can hide active status right

Of courcs I know.

If I wanted to hide activity, I would.

Butyv why the fuck would I want to?

I WANT peoplebto know
TheEXACT time I am online and aru
Iound.

Specific ally son thati don't get bulls,hitu uaccusations against me.e s
Io
People have accused me of lurking in a scumputh before. A lack of being online makes such accusations farb less credible.

Ok so discord is also a method of comms for scum to use which ruins this as a townclear.

With that said I'll tag along with this once. Because using something like this might not be against the rules have a d but is a gross misuse of trust and oog influence that goes against the spirit of the game.

I hope for your sake you never flip scum.

Discord is a lot like activity:
I'll use it if mandatory, buth otherwise, fuck that.
I legit only bhave A discokrd due to it being mandatoroy for the mm tm equivalent.

Otherwise, pts are s uperior in literally every way.
I can't even use diszcorrd on my phone anyway. My whole Coming Out thread proves that.

I can use pts on my phone, albeit at the level of accur act you see rigHt now.

[mastina]

And, yes. You have my word, I am not scum in any of the games.g
Bo
TvhE proof is in both my play and my hrd townslip
.

[mastina]

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste?

Sure!

But it's not against the rules.

And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as vits not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do everything to win.

And angle shooting to conftown myself isBeun precisely that.

Beung mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding I t at all costs is playing to win.

[mastina]

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste?

Sure!

But it's not against the rules.

And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as vits not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do evverything to win.
Kingon
And angle shooting to conftown myself isBeun precisely that.
Pr
Beung mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding I t at all costs is playing to win.

And yall have only yourselves to blame anyway.

I SHOULD be obvtown by play.

I CANt pull this shit o f as sTVcum.
S
I DID halrd townslip.
r
But in spite of this being TGE TOCAWNIEST I'VE EVER BEENQ, I'm STILL at riimsk of being mislimmed as a fucking bulletproof, who scum CAN'T i.gukill, barring them burning a strongman.

So damn right I'm going to use EVERY tool in my arsenal to avert that.

[mastina]

Mastina vote Dwlee, don't engage in their antics.

BaurrGing a rcop guilty, not voting Dwleex as they're a townread of mine.
T3
Dittvo, T3 and House.

[mastina]

Basically:
I deliberately haven't logged into mafiascum since before the night began.
Proof of this can be found in my profile, mastina.
It'll update about half an hour from now to show now as my last visit, but RIGHT NOW, it should show my last visit as being pre Meg hammer.

What the freak is this? If you can somehow freeze your "last visit" field, why wouldn't it be the case that you di and still visited the site during that period??

I am actually not an expert in site settings, but if it showed you last visiting 2 days ago (or technically 36 hours ago) while you were posting this then you could still have posted elsewhere during those 36 hours. (If my logic is wrong please explain it to me)

It is.

Last visit works on the time you're logged out, not in.

As in, updates when you are logged out.

So while logged in for the first time in two days, it'll show as 2 days ago, but once logged out, it'll update to the current date.

At least that's my experience with it.

[mastina]

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

Why would you be mislimmed? Why would you expect to be the lim target of D2 in either game?

I can quote half a dozen playerfcs posts which add up to six potential votes.

When home, obv.

[mastina]

That said, my play plus my huge tpwnslip should've told y'all that I am town anyway

What townslip? Please refresh my 53 (and a half) y.o. memory

I will, once home.

[mastina]

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

Did...did they think I was lying about being bulletproof???
Or get concerned I was legit conftown if they nightkilled???

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Regardless, I kinda wanna claim credit for the lack of the kill.

[mastina]

(also, while I'm home, I'm not really here yet--I'll be catching up and replying later, but in my phoneposting, I somehow hit an option that gives me nonstop constant emails every time someone posts, which is obviously not something I wanted enabled, so I needed to log in and disable it. I think it was hitting bookmark or subscribe or something but I undid it I think so I think my email will not get spammed anymore)

[mastina]

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

OR THIS! The Normal now has a lim threshold of 6 while the Theme has a threshold of 7. HOWEVER, That Demon Lord vote makes it 6 on Town (if it's confirmed to be scum controlled)

Before I leave tho;

We can actually bypass the Demon Lord threat so long as the Demon Lord is not on the wagon prior.

Cast the hammer vote in the mini normal, then immediately unvote.

The hammer goes through, but the mini theme goes to L-1, and then goes down to L-2 thanks to your unvote.

You do need to be careful to time the hammer IMMEDIATELY after a votecount where the demon lord is not on the wagon (and I do mean IMMEDIATELY, as in, within 30 seconds or so), as to make sure the demon lord isn't on the wagon and doesn't have time to join, but it's still doable.

[mastina]

Why is House town again Mastina?

Same reason I am for last night:
Not showing up until after both games went into day meaning he couldn't have been involved in night discussions. (Granted, haven't investigated this in more detail, will do so when I'm here for real.)

Beyond that, he's playing to his town meta through and through here.

[mastina]

(also, while I'm home, I'm not really here yet--I'll be catching up and replying later, but in my phoneposting, I somehow hit an option that gives me nonstop constant emails every time someone posts, which is obviously not something I wanted enabled, so I needed to log in and disable it. I think it was hitting bookmark or subscribe or something but I undid it I think so I think my email will not get spammed anymore)

Sorry, gonna need to delay this.

Most of what I want to do requires EITHER:
-Rereading the thread and formulating responses to things that I didn't respond to on my phone,
OR:
-Thinking critically about the game and analyzing who is more likely to be town/scum/etc. across two games, where, when, etc.

I've been feeling REALLY badly fatigued today. It's possible I'll have a miraculous recovery of lucidity where I can suddenly start thinking and turning my brain back on but unless that happens, well...I was literally struggling to not fall asleep at the keyboard while watching my favorite streamer.

Favorite

streamer, and I almost felt asleep at the keyboard. So like...I'm tired. I'm mentally dead. Today's been very very physically exhausting to me for whatever reason.

I'll try to make my workload tomorrow be less tho by covering more things tonight:

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Why would that make anyone confitown?

House not showing up means he couldn't have contributed to the scum PT overnight. While it's

possible

to contribute in advance (actions submitted before night) and it's

possible

for scumbuddies to submit without him, he's probably just town for using the same tell I was.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I'm too tired to do proper analysis here but I think that this conftowns House, barring a town Demon Lord claim. (Since a Demon Lord won't claim tho, House should be conftown from it.)

From there, the options for the remaining three are:
-House->me->Cheeky (2/3) (would require me to not be town tho obv and still would leave a final alignment change--for instance, if the change was at RR then RR and Dwlee would both be scum; if the change was at Dwlee then Dwlee would be scum)
-me->Cheeky->T3 (2/3) (would require Cheeky to not be town tho in spite of this being Cheeky giving the result--seems kinda ridiculous)
-Cheeky->T3->RR->Dwlee (3/3) (would mean T3 and Dwlee are scum I think?)

I might not be thinking of all the possibilities but my townreads on T3/Dwlee do not override the chance of there being scum there.

I'm pretty sure that if you assume Cheeky is town here, then the only possible nontown are {mastina, T3, Dwlee} here?

Again, might be not thinking, should be more lucid to give it a better thought runthrough.

But I think that regardless, Dwlee might be confscum here?
VOTE: Dwlee99
Not sure, feel free to correct me, am tired, not thinking at full capacity, but I think that it has to fit regardless of your thoughts elsewhere.

So T3 or RR likely middle scum. House could be scum and Dwlee definitely scum.

I might be overlooking in my tiredness the RR scum world, I can't figure the math out there right now but that's probably where I am flawed in thinking.

[mastina]

Okay here's the deal. I am town in A, but scum in B, BUT my role is I'm a haterizer / loverizer combo so if I live the night I'll be able to haterize myself tonight and this will mean I need one less vote to be flipped tomorrow, meaning I can be hammered in B without dying in A. As it stands right now, I don't think it is possible to only lim me in B because no one is alive in A but not in B. But if we wait a day I CAN be limmed in B and not A

Phoneposting, but I saw this, and in regards to it, I have something VERY important to say, but it legit is impossible to do so on my phone even without work restricting my time.

It'll be a top priority thing once I am home tho because it's incredibly important.

In the mean time, I'll say this:

ANYONE SO MUCH AS PLACING SOMEONE

CLOSE

TO A HAMMER BEFORE I CAN EXPLAIN WILL BE SCUMCLAIMING.

Really wish I could say it now, but when I do, you'll see why it's not possible on my phone.

Suffice to say tho, I think that game two is close to won for the town.

Will reveal why when home.

[mastina]

Alright, so I am home, which means I need to do this:

In Game Two, I am

(technically)

a

Bulletproof Survivor

.
It's not quite a normal Survivor wincon; it's

almost

a Town Survivor.
My wincon is to survive to the end of the game with no more than two players who're not members of the Paperwork faction alive. (Is slightly paraphrased here, but obviously, can't do an exact quote without getting modkilled and you'll forgive me for being a bit cautious given that literally the last time I got 3p I did in fact eat a modkill.) I asked the mod and, yes, I count as one of those two.

In other words, per Jingle, if there are three scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose;
If there are two scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose.

I could

technically

win with the scum with only one scum alive, buuuuuuut: at that point, why bother? I'm just going to townside since I need two scum dead anyway, why not make it all three?

Given that I need AT LEAST two scum dead in order to win, and pragmatically speaking probably can get the fastest win just by having all three scum be eliminated, I've been playing as if I was town the entire time. (Because I would anyway because fuck playing 3ps as scum, they are town.)

I should give a full disclaimer/confession tho.
I wasn't really planning on claiming 3p here unless one of two conditions happened.

The reason why is simple;
Mafiascum has a murderboner for third parties.
They see a 3p claim, they see "oh they're not town that means we can just eliminate them!". Even when said 3p is basically town and probably the game was

balanced

around said 3p being treated as town. (As in, 3ps that are benign/benevolent are usually, for balance purposes, meant to be treated as a town PR, meaning that the game will have three groupscum and that the town eliminating the 3p on policy will fuck them over because they are not eliminating scum.)

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be scum, fakeclaiming 3p", in spite of the fact that I never fakeclaim as scum.

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be lying about being benevolent/benign 3p", which, being paranoia-based, I have no real ability to defend against.

I didn't want to deal with lazy town players not bothering to read my claim and thinking "oh survivor = basically 4th scum" in spite of the fact that, no, actually, I cannot in fact scumside because with 3 or 2 scum alive I don't win even if I live.

You know, the arguments: "mastina just admitted to not being town", "mastina isn't town", "mastina could be lying", "mastina might end the game in a solo win", "mastina could be scum fakeclaiming 3p", and such.

Given that I was playing as if I was town, I figured that by virtue of being obvtown due to not being scum and being, well, me, mastina, that I wouldn't need to claim 3p at all if I was just that obviously town anyway. So if I could get away with just pretending I was town, I would do so, and win with the town after eliminating the third scum. The town would never know I was 3p because I was acting as town the entire time, needed two scum dead in order to win anyway, and was working with the town as basically a fullblown town bulletproof which would allow me to relentlessly hunt down and eliminate the scum as if I were town.

With the caveat of the two potential scenarios where I would need to claim.

The first scenario is if someone just directly bluntly to my face asked me, "mastina, are you 3p?". Nobody did directly, but had they, that'd indicate that they would not go murderboner for eliminating claimed 3p and would in fact be willing to work with me. Town players willing to work with someone who basically is already town anyway? Of course I'd claim in a scenario with that, it'd be antitown to not.

The second scenario is what has happened: when

not

claiming would actually

hurt

the town.

CheekyTeeky's result means exactly that. If I pretended to be town when I am not, it could actually lead to a mislim on a player that I knew to be town--and given that I am trying my damnedest to be basically full-townside, I needed to speak up to prevent that and conftown the players who I know to be conftown from the CheekyTeeky result.

However, while I did indeed want to not claim unless one of those two scenarios came up, I did leave an abundantly clear loaf (breadcrumbs but so abundant that they're a full-ass loaf) in my iso where I would let you all know:

Spoiler: I REALLY didn't want to spoiler this because I REALLY wanted y'all to read it all but I ended up quoting enough that I think I need it, sadly

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

"basically the same", but not THE same. Because game #2 I am a survivor, that needs scum dead in a way that makes it basically a Town Survivor, just...not technically town.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all.

Notice that in response to Almost50, I didn't say "I'm town in all 3 games"; I said "I'm not scum at all". Because I

couldn't

say I was town in all 3 games because technically speaking I'm not even though the type of nontown I am is basically town anyway.

I said I wasn't scum at all because I'm in fact, not scum in any game.

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

Once more, though, you may note the usage: "prove that I am not scum", rather than 'prove that I am town'.
Because, if it was necessary, I wanted to leave it open for the chance for me to claim 3p if need be, if either of the two claim-conditions happened to come true (which the second one did).

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

I didn't say that *I* was town here, I just said that I wanted a triple town win from killing all the scum in all the games. Which is true; I want all the scum dead in all the games and that should generate a triple town win since I can in fact win with the town in spite of technically not being town due to basically still being town.

And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I don't have any scumgames here, but I didn't say "I have 3 towngames". (Since again, technically not a towngame even tho it pragmatically speaking is one.)

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too. I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts. One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot. Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it. Phoneposting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what role loses value when claimed? Bulletproof!
The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can explain better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty ass glitchy phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far. I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.
Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in game two.
Suffice to say, you can fuck off if you think that I am scum in any of the games.
I'm not.

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in. I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

. There's multiple reasons for this. I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but. I don't think it was actually meant as a joke. I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.

I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

I genuinely think that the claim

came from a position of both scum information

, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Here, it takes some explaining, but: basically, I saw MegAzumarill claim a third party and claim bulletproof and my thought instantly jumped to, "MegAzumarill is scum in game #2 who has TMI" and was thus not joking.

I was in fact planning to draw nightkills in game #2 (again, being bulletproof and being basically a town survivor that needs scum dead, drawing scum kills to me is a GOOD thing because they couldn't kill me and it'd put the town in a better position). However, I saw MegAzumarill's claim as hard proof that Meg was informed scum in game #2.

You may notice again: "I'm not scum in any of the games". I'm in fact not scum in any of the games! But I didn't say town in all of them because while I might be basically-town in game #2 I am technically not town.

There was in fact depth to my reads tho because I was dead serious in all of them. I, again, was attempting to get

nightkilled

in game #2. As a bulletproof, who needs scum dead in order to win, I needed to be playing as if I was town and furthering the town wincon. Meaning that I needed to be as town as I've ever been before, townier than that in fact.

I do think that Ircher also TMI'd tho--Ircher said, "mastina is town in precisely 2/3 of the games". That was in fact right. But why those words instead of "mastina is scum in 1/3 of the games"? It feels like Ircher was saying exactly what he meant to say because he knew it'd be exactly the truth. He can point to 418 and say he was 100% correct--but him being 100% correct is actually

the problem

. He

shouldn't

have had any inkling of me being non-town-but-not-scum in game #2. Because again, I was powertowning, more than I've ever towned before.

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

This is me explaining the townslip (well, slip of not being scum) further, but note again that I used 'not scum in any game', because I am in fact: not scum in any game!

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Again, I thought that Meg was TMI'ing in game #2 with the claim and was trying to bait me out.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Here I again explain why I thought that Meg TMI'd as being scum in game #2.

Beyond that, I laid out a modified version of my trueclaim.

I am not actually a miller, obviously.
But what I said there remains true:
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does).

All of those remain true because they are all actually true--I'm still basically town here. I show as the town result to almost every investigation, I'm not groupscum, I require scum to be dead in order to win, for all intents and purposes, I'm basically just town. Just, technically am not town due to technically not being town.

DID I NOT FUCKING HARD TOWNSLIP BY NOT BEING AWARE OF THE FUCKING NATURE OF THE SCUM/MASONS IN GAME THREE.
DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU YOU FUCKERS COULD FUCK OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING AM.

So fuck off with accusations of me being scum EVER again and hammering me when I'm fucking sleeping.

I again say "never am scum" here, because I'm not, but don't say 'always town', because that'd have been a lie.

I did fuck up in 1030 in saying 'town in all 3' tho.
I genuinely

meant

to say 'not scum', probably was too angry to notice the slip-up in breadcrumbing so I apologize for that.

I agree with ircher bigly

Fuck off, Dwlee.

I'm ticked enough that I got eliminated in ONE game.

I'm not going down when I have been putting in more effort than ever before in all three games.

Not a breadcrumb per se but this shows my mindset here:

I am not power-efforting scum; I am in fact, basically town in all three games (even though I am technically not town).

And there is some survivalism involved--because, natch, am a Survivor.

Mastina, town won because of T3's misfire.

Yes but I didn't know that when I was posting. I do now. But I didn't.

And just because they won doesn't mean I cannot be fucking pissed that you fucking mislimmed me while I was sleeping that game--it is a show of a (lack of) integrity.

Also need I remind you that I am at, what, L-2 now in both remaining games?

From "mastina is scum in 1/3 games" 'logic' that nobody backs up because there isn't any fucking logic had in a bullshit statement like that which goes contrary to everything?

I still have a right to be fucking furious here and I am enacting that right until the only votes on me are from scum.

This remains true but was another further hint at my role, in case I needed to claim it. (Which, thanks to the result, I do.)

Love getting cursed at for... winning

I have the right to curse at you for fucking voting me out both in game three and AFTER SEEING THAT I WAS TOWN THERE then deciding to vote me in BOTH THE REMAINING GAMES.

In spite of, yaknow.

Maybe.

Just maybe.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

I've been solving

all three

games from the

onset

. I've not been solving one game; I've been solving ALL of them. My reads are cross-game applying to ALL of them. So if you see me fucking flip town in game 3 after being fucking wrong there and then go on to proceed to VOTE ME IN BOTH REMAINING GAMES, I do in fact get to say:

Fuck. off.

Here I again say "not scum" (because I'm not) rather than "town" (because I'm technically not).

You're town in precisely two because you are doing your standard wallposts, but at the same time, I can see you are pushing an agenda.

The agenda was attempting to get fucking nightkilled in game #2 by being fucking bulletproof and knowing that, via being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't truly die in either of the other two. As in, due to being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't have my voice removed in game #1.

The

only

way to get rid of me would be via town idiocy in fucking eliminating a fucking BULLETPROOF. (That or a scum strongman but like--forcing scum to use the strongman > doing the fucking scum's work for them.)

The question is which game of 1/2 you are town in and which one you are scum in.

I'm not scum in ANY of the games because I fucking hard-townslipped in a way that I was fucking incapable of doing if I were scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Even if you believe this, it is still pretty poor form to immediately jump to counterclaim. You could have waited until you knew all the facts; it wasn't like you were in danger or anything.

This critique is proof that Ircher does not believe I am actually scum.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

First, you are assuming scum are playing optimally.

Yeah and if I was scum in game #2 no fucking shit I'd use the role optimally.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless

Here you get more hints. I again emphasize "not scum in any game", rather than "town in all 3 games", and I again point out Ircher's TMI and why I thought Meg had TMI. (I was wrong on Meg having TMI but I believe I am right on Ircher having had TMI in his read on me--he had me as 'not town', but his posts didn't indicate he thought I was scum, thus, he correctly identified me as 3p when he should not have been able to as town.)

I'll say that the agenda remains true; my agenda is to survive game #2 and kill all the scum because I can't win with them pretty much.

And I have been playing to my fucking town meta in ALL of them because guess what? Not scum in any of them.

That I wasn't playing with an agenda was already proven in game #3.

It would also be proven if I was fucking mislimmed in both games 1 and 2 because I am not fucking scum in all three and transparently so.

This remains true; I am not scum in any of the games and transparently so.

I am playing to my town meta in all three games, because while I'm technically not town in all 3, I'm

basically

town in all three.

I will say that I very strongly believed Meg to be scum TMI'ing in game #2 and wanted to eliminate Meg to basically hard-clear myself. If Meg flipped scum in game #2, then it'd clear me from being scum, meaning that people couldn't pull the bullshit "mastina is lying about being 3p" because I bloody killed scum.

Which, by the way, I can still do in the form of Dwlee and probably Ircher.

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

The motivation for this should be obvious:

As a survivor, I need to survive.
As not scum, I have an easy way to mostly prove I am not scum.
As such, I resorted to this in order to avoid my elimination.

(And yes, I did feel the need to resort to this. I am not being eliminated as a fucking bulletproof again. It's happened before and I am determined to make it never happen again. I could have obviously cleared myself if Meg flipped scum, but since Meg did not, I need to find and eliminate an actual scum in order to actually clear myself.)

Here I laid out my strategy and basically said: "I'm not dieing as third party again". (As a reminder, last time I claimed 3p I got modkilled but I know Jingle's a lot more laxed on rules than unwnd so the fear is more from the town than the wrath of mod.) I laid out my plan, my strategy, to clear myself of being scum by having eliminated scum. It'd not eliminate paranoia of me being malevolent 3p but it'd guarantee that people would see me as not-groupscum at the very least.

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste? Sure! But it's not against the rules.
And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as its not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do everything to win. And angleshooting to conftown myself is doing precisely that.

Being mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding it at all costs is playing to win.

Here I basically was claiming my real role anyway. I am obligated to do everything to win--as a Survivor, that means being confirmed as not groupscum is playing to my wincon. Being eliminated (which, to be clear, is still a mislim because

I am not scum

, I'm basically town even if I'm technically not because I require scum to be dead in order to win meaning that I am playing to the town wincon and thus, eliminating me IS a mislim!) obviously causes a Survivor to lose, so...

I SHOULD be obvtown by play.
I CAN'T pull this shit off as scum.
I DID hard townslip.
But in spite of this being THE TOWNIEST I'VE EVER BEEN, I'm STILL at risk of being mislimmed as a fucking bulletproof, who scum CAN'T kill, barring them burning a strongman.
So damn right I'm going to use EVERY tool in my arsenal to avert that.

More laying out that I am not scum and am playing to the town wincon.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I'm too tired to do proper analysis here but I think that this conftowns House, barring a town Demon Lord claim. (Since a Demon Lord won't claim tho, House should be conftown from it.)

From there, the options for the remaining three are:
-House->me->Cheeky (2/3) (would require me to not be town tho obv and still would leave a final alignment change--for instance, if the change was at RR then RR and Dwlee would both be scum; if the change was at Dwlee then Dwlee would be scum)
-me->Cheeky->T3 (2/3) (would require Cheeky to not be town tho in spite of this being Cheeky giving the result--seems kinda ridiculous)
-Cheeky->T3->RR->Dwlee (3/3) (would mean T3 and Dwlee are scum I think?)

I might not be thinking of all the possibilities but my townreads on T3/Dwlee do not override the chance of there being scum there.

I'm pretty sure that if you assume Cheeky is town here, then the only possible nontown are {mastina, T3, Dwlee} here?

Again, might be not thinking, should be more lucid to give it a better thought runthrough.

But I think that regardless, Dwlee might be confscum here?
VOTE: Dwlee99
Not sure, feel free to correct me, am tired, not thinking at full capacity, but I think that it has to fit regardless of your thoughts elsewhere.

So T3 or RR likely middle scum. House could be scum and Dwlee definitely scum.

I might be overlooking in my tiredness the RR scum world, I can't figure the math out there right now but that's probably where I am flawed in thinking.

At this point, I was already committing to claiming my status as third party, I just wanted Dwlee as scum dead first because if Dwlee died and flipped scum, that'd be the time for me to out myself.

But with Dwlee admitting they're scum, that moved up the timetable from "after the D2 elimination on Dwlee" to right now.

And to be clear, I do in fact know that Dwlee

must

be confscum. Even if they didn't confess, by knowing I'm 2/4 of the alignment changes, and with the Demon Lord as a third, that meant that the fourth must mean Dwlee was scum.

So what does all of this mean?

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

,

House

,

mastina

,

CheekyTeeky

, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, HAMMER!

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

What this means is that 3/4 of the shifts are:

Demon Lord

<1>

House

<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<->Radical Rat<->

Dwlee99

With the fourth and final alignment shift being after CheekyTeeky.

Which means the possibilities, most likely to least likely, are:

1:

CheekyTeeky

<->

T3<->Radical Rat

<4>

Dwlee99

(one scum on wagon, two off)
2:

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<4>

Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(two scum, RR+Dwlee back to back, on wagon, one off)
3:

CheekyTeeky

<4>

T3<->Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(all three scum on the wagon hammering it, as T3+RR+Dwlee)

What does this mean?

House and CheekyTeeky are confirmed as town.
If Radical Rat flips town, it confirms that T3 is conftown.
Dwlee is confscum no matter what.

As for who I think is scum

off

the wagon...

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

Radical Rat (E-4):

Almost50, Ircher, Amy Dunne,

Dunnstral (E-6):

RCEnigma,

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Lady Chloe,

Almost50's town in all games.
So is Lady Chloe/Taly.
RCE is probably town in game #3.

So that leaves the possible scum off the wagon as:
{Ircher, Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}

If the scumteam is {T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99} those three would be all town;
If the scumteam has {Radical Rat, Dwlee99} then those three would have 1/3 be scum;
If Radical Rat is town, then those three would have 2/3 be scum.

I believe that {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} has 1 scum and that Ircher is just scum in game #2.

(And yes, to be clear for the reading impaired: I

need

scum dead in game #2, and

cannot

win with 2/3 scum alive. Meaning that for all intents and purposes, I'm basically town.)

[mastina]

I'll now be taking questions.

(...By which I mean.
"Too long, didn't read."s;
"Let's eliminate mastina, it's safe to do so"s;
"mastina's scum in game #2"s;
"so mastina needs to die in game #2 right?"s;
"mastina's incentivized to scumside" fuckers who didn't read that no I actually can't scumside even if I wanted to and no I never would want to;
etc.
And maybe actually questions from the more enlightened town players. )

[mastina]

mastina votes in game 2 are acceptable.

Oh yeah dealing with this bullshit is also among the things I didn't really want to have to deal with. (it's not a "mastina must die", it's not quite "3p = acceptable loss", it's not any of the others I said previously, but it's among the things that any 3p claim will entail.)

Do you have any opinions on who we should lim in Game 1 before Dwlee?

{Ircher, Dunnstral, Amy Dunne} is a good place to start. I realize that's also a group I think has 2/3 of the scum in the mini theme but I still think that group contains at least 1 scum in the mini normal, too.

You can add yourself to the list of players in the mini normal for me--not as a guarantee, but as a plausibility that I cannot ignore.

A50's town; Lady Chloe's town; House is town; CheekyTeeky is almost certainly town.

Beyond that, I

think

that T3 is town but not to the extent of the above;
With Dwlee as town in game #1, that'd leave possible scum as:
{Radical Rat, Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, Ircher} and maybe

maybe

T3.

[mastina]

Yo, gotta leave for work and won't be able to post when there since all of the things I have to say I need to be at a desktop to say. (Wasn't up to it last night, sorry.) So will be here tonight. In the mean time tho;

VOTE: Ircher

Ircher > Dunnstral > RR > Dwlee

this is for both games since obviously if it were

just

game two it'd be Dwlee > Ircher > Dunnstral > RR (Dwlee being lower is due to the high chance they're town in game 1).

Will explain when home.

[mastina]

Yo, gotta leave for work and won't be able to post when there since all of the things I have to say I need to be at a desktop to say. (Wasn't up to it last night, sorry.) So will be here tonight. In the mean time tho;

VOTE: Ircher

Ircher > Dunnstral > RR > Dwlee

this is for both games since obviously if it were

just

game two it'd be Dwlee > Ircher > Dunnstral > RR (Dwlee being lower is due to the high chance they're town in game 1).

Will explain when home.

Actually, I think th
at I can explain my Ircher read even when phoneposting, although I will lack the quotes which back the read up.

Basically, when I was reviewing Dunnstrals DL claim (why I think THAT claim is a scumclaim WILL need quotes tho), I noticed something egregious which guarantees that Ircher is scum in game 1.

MegAzumarill was, by group consensus, thought town in game one but scum in game 2.
The Demon Lord was voting Meg in game 2.
This allowed for Meg to be hammered in game 2 without being hammered in game 1.
Ircher is a mechanics based player. He'd KNOW about the potential to desynch both games, and why that'd benefit both towns.

Ircher wasn't the hammer vote in game 2; he was the L+1 vote.
…However, Richer WAS the hammer vote in game 1.

Why did Ircher, the mechanics oriented player, 'not notice' or Not Care that Meg was hammered in game 2?

Thus, Irchers confscum in game 1.

[mastina]

You have the exact same scumpool in both games, just a different order?

No, it's just that I didn't post the game 1 order, which would include Amy (who's absent from G2 due to my the eory on who the 3 G2 scum are.)

I posted the overall and G2, but will post the G1 when home.

[mastina]

So to get this straight:

Dunnstral has claimed town DL.
Mastina has claimed town siding 3p...?

Yes but the actual DL vote is unaligned

That can't be correct because Ive confirmed that DL vote was taken into account in my result but I guess unadorned could count as like 3p in the parity check between wagonees.

(This is PART, but not ALL, of why Dunn is s cum.)

[mastina]

I wonder if that's why Mastina hard tunneled MegA as a counterclaim? A bit miffed that I believed mastina was triple town.

Well I basically am.

And I tunneled Meg because I had damn good reason to believe Meg was scum in game two.

Read my claim post's spoiler section for why.

[mastina]

@Everybody/anybody

: Regarding the Normal game..

Read 1781.

Tell me I'm wrong about Ircher being mechanics oriented or sheep me because there's NO way a mechanics oriented player like Ircher doesn't not

[mastina]

@Everybody/anybody

: Regarding the Normal game..

Read 1781.

Tell me I'm wrong about Ircher being mechanics oriented or sheep me because there's NO way a mechanics oriented player like Ircher doesn't not

Doesn't notice Meg was hammered in game 2 without him.

[mastina]

I considered once again not logging in for two days to prove that, once again, I was not online for the entirety of the night in game 1 and most of the night for game 2. I was fully capable of doing so to once more prove that I could not have coordinated with scumbuddies unless having done so in advance.

But I just...don't feel like it. I feel like posting, so. I am going to post, in spite of it removing my chance to double down on my alibi.

Mastina now pushed two town wagons. Whatever she is, it’s gamethrowing to listen to her. :/

I think either mastina or House are our best options at this point, preferably mastina first. mastina's whole thing about "I was offline so I can't possibly be scum, even though that proves absolutely nothing" and her extension of the same defense to House, combined with House's distinct lack of any kind of substantial posting just... Looks very, very bad.

As long as we eliminate within the 12 hour window before Game 2 opens, I am at peace with either flipping in Game 1.

I will take full accountability for what I am responsible for.

I fully believed that MegAzumarill was scum in game #2. I very strongly pushed this. And I was incorrect.

I fully believed that Ircher was, thanks to hammering MegAzumarill in game #1, scum in game #1 and also scum in game #2. I knew the plan was to desynch games 1 and 2, so I knew the plan wasn't to immediately eliminate Ircher in game 2, but I fully wanted Ircher dead in game #2 as well. I made a full case for him being scum in game #1 and believed him to be scum in game #2 as well and had pushed that for the full game.

I was wrong.

I will take full blame for those, because I am indeed responsible for it, should be held accountable for those mistakes of mine.

...But while I will take the blame for what I am responsible for...

...I will

not

take the blame for what I am NOT responsible for.

I am ONE vote. Not six, not seven. I cannot eliminate a player by myself--even if there's three scum who vote with me, that means there's a MINIMUM of two to three town players who voted for the same elimination I did and thought it was a good idea, thought it was right, thought it was the best thing to do with their vote.

You cannot pin the blame on me even IF there's three scum on the mislim wagon. For every scum OFF the wagon, you add another townie who was at least partially responsible. With 2/3 scum, there's three to four other town players who have accountability.

And if it's only 1/3 scum, that's four to five other town players who were responsible.

And if we somehow got an all town wagon at any point? That's five to six other town players who all, collectively, were on the same page as me in thinking the eliminations were not bad ideas.

Don't pretend that I am solely responsible. Don't you fucking dare try to pin the blame on me for every vote. I pushed, I encouraged, but at the end of the day the only vote I

control

is my own.

Beyond that?

I thought MegAzumarill was scum in game #2, but NOT scum in game #1. With the Demon Lord voting MegAzumarill, it was possible to eliminate MegAzumarill in game #2

without

eliminating MegAzumarill in the game where basically everyone (correctly) assumed Meg was town. We'd still have our town tracker in that game--if it wasn't for what, with Ircher having flipped town, was apparently just a town player, Ircher, majorly fucking up in a way he absolutely should not have fucked up on.

I am not responsible for that; that was Ircher, and you can't pretend I am, because I made it abundantly clear what I wanted to do. I wanted Meg dead in game two, NOT game one. Ircher, apparently accidentally given that he is town in both games, fucked that up--but I REFUSE to take responsibility for HIS fuckup. And you might think it shitty to speak ill of the dead, but in this case, there's no sugar coating the truth: Ircher fucked up. He should NOT have hammered Meg in game #1. He SHOULD have known Meg was dead in game 2 and at L-1 in game 1. He didn't. And that's a fuckup on his end. You might consider it a bit harsh to rub salt in the wound and remind him of his fuckup after he paid for it with his life in both games, but I say it to illustrate my point: no matter how much you try to pin the blame on me for the Meg mislim, you

cannot

say that I was the one responsible for Meg's death in game #1.

When it comes to the Ircher elimination, it's similar: I did think Ircher was scum in both games, so I wanted him eliminated in both games, but I knew what the

plan

was. The

plan

involved Ircher being eliminated in game one

before

game two's elimination, desynchronizing the games.

I did not cast the hammer vote on Ircher in game #1 and then fail to unvote Ircher in game #2--that was House. You can argue that I have defended House, and I have indeed, and if House ends up flipping scum I will own up to that being added to the list of my fuckups--but I would like to remind you of that 'IF'. It requires House to flip scum first. You're fucking stupid if you do things out of order and mislim me before touching House because the argument for me being scum requires House being scum, meaning you always eliminate House BEFORE me. He flips town, I'm acquitted and we can say that he fucked up in game #2. Again, something I am not responsible for. He flips scum, THEN you can entertain the idea that I could be scum with him but at least you have a scum dead.

But either way, his hammer and lack of unvote is NOT something you can pin on me. You can pin defense of House on me IF he flips scum, but not a moment before.

I did not cast the hammer vote on Ircher in game #2--that was T3. If T3 is scum, that was him playing to wincon, but if T3 isn't scum, that was him majorly fucking up by getting the games to remain in synch when the whole plan was to desynch the games.


I have made fuckups, but you cannot place the entirety of the blame for how poorly both games are going on me--there is SIGNIFICANT blame to be had on literally every player who has voted on those elimination wagons,

especially

the town,

especially

if they hammered. As much blame as I will take. That being, I was wrong about Meg being scum in game 2 in spite of pushing there, and was wrong on Ircher being scum in spite of pushing him. As much as I am responsible for those things.

Don't fucking pretend I'm the reason we're in the situation we are in.

If you want to win the games, then eliminating me will continue to not do that for anyone except the scum since I am not scum in any of the games and am basically town in all 3.

If you want to win the games, then what you

should

be doing is looking at players' play and determining who is likely to be town in both remaining games and then from the remainder, figuring out who is the likely scum in which games and how to try and coordinate desynching the two games.

mastina's whole thing about "I was offline so I can't possibly be scum, even though that proves absolutely nothing" and her extension of the same defense to House, combined with House's distinct lack of any kind of substantial posting just... Looks very, very bad.

I'd say "you can fuck off" if not for thinking you were just scum but if you're town you can indeed fuck off as mislimming me will in fact lose the town the game because I am basically town in all three games and I WON'T let you fucking forget it if you lim me in TWO games in a fucking row when you shouldn't have even limmed me in game 3 and we almost lost that game because of that idiocy. But that said, you're probably just scum, so...

Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
mastina
MegAzumarill
Dwlee99
Dunnstral
Almost50
RCEnigma
CheekyTeeky
Lady Chloe
Ircher
House
T3

I am basically town in all three games.
Lady Chloe, Almost50, and CheekyTeeky, if any of them are scum frankly I'll just let them win the game because they're the players who'd have earned it via just being town.
RCEnigma is proven town in game 1 and is almost certainly town in game 2 as well.

So that leaves for scum candidates in both games:
Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
Dwlee99 (probably town in game 1 but confscum in game 2)
Dunnstral
House
T3

6 names for 3 scum in both games.

In game 2, from CheekyTeeky, we know there is an alignment change between House and me, me and CheekyTeeky, and a third at some point which makes Dwlee scum at the end.

The fourth can

only

be the Demon Lord, because there's no combination which can generate 4 changes otherwise.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-5>

Dwlee

is a change too many.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-3>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

The

only

possibility is the Demon Lord counting as a change;
House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is possible, but it means there's two scum off the wagon.
If we take {A50, Lady Chloe, RCE} to be town, and IF we take the above combo to be the correct one, that means the 2/3 possible scum off the wagon are PRECISELY:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum.

It would also mean that 1/2 of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} would be scum and the other would be town.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-4>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum,

in addition to

T3

also

being scum.

This is the only scenario in which both of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} are town.

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #2, Radical Rat should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 100% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

For Game #1, it's unfortunately more difficult to solve. It's

probably

not Dwlee.
I doubt that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, so if he's scum in game #2 (which is highly likely as the only way he's not scum in game 2 is if both Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are scum and I doubt that), he's probably also town in game #1 like Dwlee.

Which leaves the

probable

scum in game #1 as:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House, T3}.

T3 is probably scum in 1/2 games.

If Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both town in game #2, then T3 would probably be town in game #1 by virtue of being scum in game #2.
But if only 1/2 of Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are town in game #2, then T3 would probably be scum in game #1 by virtue of being town in game #2.

In other words, T3 is town in either game 1 or game 2, Amy Dunne and Dunnstral must have one game they are town in and one

Not deleting the above but striking it as I realized that while RR is probably not scum in all 3 games, there is a reasonable chance

T3

could in fact be scum in all 3 games, so the above thought process I abandoned once I realized it.

Still, though, regardless of T3 being scum in one game or both games, that means that there's a minimum of 2 scum in {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House} in game 1.

Which means that:

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #1, the other of you should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 99*% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

*The 1% is RR being scum in all three games.

You know what that also means?

Unless the scumteam for game #1 is precisely {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, T3} (or RR is scum in all 3 games, I guess, but again, that isn't very likely imo), House would be scum in game #1.

(I should add: it's technically possible for House to be scum in game #2 as there's no distinguishing between town and scum for him, but House is probably not scum in all three games the same way RR probably isn't, and the math for RR being basically confscum to Amy Dunne/Dunnstral remains true.)

[mastina]

Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
mastina
MegAzumarill
Dwlee99
Dunnstral
Almost50
RCEnigma
CheekyTeeky
Lady Chloe
Ircher
House
T3

I am basically town in all three games.
Lady Chloe, Almost50, and CheekyTeeky, if any of them are scum frankly I'll just let them win the game because they're the players who'd have earned it via just being town.
RCEnigma is proven town in game 1 and is almost certainly town in game 2 as well.

So that leaves for scum candidates in both games:
Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
Dwlee99 (probably town in game 1 but confscum in game 2)
Dunnstral
House
T3

6 names for 3 scum in both games.

In game 2, from CheekyTeeky, we know there is an alignment change between House and me, me and CheekyTeeky, and a third at some point which makes Dwlee scum at the end.

The fourth can

only

be the Demon Lord, because there's no combination which can generate 4 changes otherwise.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-5>

Dwlee

is a change too many.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-3>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

The

only

possibility is the Demon Lord counting as a change;
House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is possible, but it means there's two scum off the wagon.
If we take {A50, Lady Chloe, RCE} to be town, and IF we take the above combo to be the correct one, that means the 2/3 possible scum off the wagon are PRECISELY:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum.

It would also mean that 1/2 of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} would be scum and the other would be town.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-4>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum,

in addition to

T3

also

being scum.

This is the only scenario in which both of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} are town.

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #2, Radical Rat should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 100% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

For Game #1, it's unfortunately more difficult to solve. It's

probably

not Dwlee.
I doubt that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, so if he's scum in game #2 (which is highly likely as the only way he's not scum in game 2 is if both Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are scum and I doubt that), he's probably also town in game #1 like Dwlee.

Which leaves the

probable

scum in game #1 as:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House, T3}.

T3 is probably scum in 1/2 games.

If Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both town in game #2, then T3 would probably be town in game #1 by virtue of being scum in game #2.
But if only 1/2 of Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are town in game #2, then T3 would probably be scum in game #1 by virtue of being town in game #2.

In other words, T3 is town in either game 1 or game 2, Amy Dunne and Dunnstral must have one game they are town in and one

Not deleting the above but striking it as I realized that while RR is probably not scum in all 3 games, there is a reasonable chance

T3

could in fact be scum in all 3 games, so the above thought process I abandoned once I realized it.

Still, though, regardless of T3 being scum in one game or both games, that means that there's a minimum of 2 scum in {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House} in game 1.

Which means that:

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #1, the other of you should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 99*% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

*The 1% is RR being scum in all three games.

You know what that also means?

Unless the scumteam for game #1 is precisely {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, T3} (or RR is scum in all 3 games, I guess, but again, that isn't very likely imo), House would be scum in game #1.

(I should add: it's technically possible for House to be scum in game #2 as there's no distinguishing between town and scum for him, but House is probably not scum in all three games the same way RR probably isn't, and the math for RR being basically confscum to Amy Dunne/Dunnstral remains true.)

Gonna quote the actual solvey part for people so it's more visible to folks.

[mastina]

Spoiler: rant

I will take full accountability for what I am responsible for.

I fully believed that MegAzumarill was scum in game #2. I very strongly pushed this. And I was incorrect.

I fully believed that Ircher was, thanks to hammering MegAzumarill in game #1, scum in game #1 and also scum in game #2. I knew the plan was to desynch games 1 and 2, so I knew the plan wasn't to immediately eliminate Ircher in game 2, but I fully wanted Ircher dead in game #2 as well. I made a full case for him being scum in game #1 and believed him to be scum in game #2 as well and had pushed that for the full game.

I was wrong.

I will take full blame for those, because I am indeed responsible for it, should be held accountable for those mistakes of mine.

...But while I will take the blame for what I am responsible for...

...I will

not

take the blame for what I am NOT responsible for.

I am ONE vote. Not six, not seven. I cannot eliminate a player by myself--even if there's three scum who vote with me, that means there's a MINIMUM of two to three town players who voted for the same elimination I did and thought it was a good idea, thought it was right, thought it was the best thing to do with their vote.

You cannot pin the blame on me even IF there's three scum on the mislim wagon. For every scum OFF the wagon, you add another townie who was at least partially responsible. With 2/3 scum, there's three to four other town players who have accountability.

And if it's only 1/3 scum, that's four to five other town players who were responsible.

And if we somehow got an all town wagon at any point? That's five to six other town players who all, collectively, were on the same page as me in thinking the eliminations were not bad ideas.

Don't pretend that I am solely responsible. Don't you fucking dare try to pin the blame on me for every vote. I pushed, I encouraged, but at the end of the day the only vote I

control

is my own.

Beyond that?

I thought MegAzumarill was scum in game #2, but NOT scum in game #1. With the Demon Lord voting MegAzumarill, it was possible to eliminate MegAzumarill in game #2

without

eliminating MegAzumarill in the game where basically everyone (correctly) assumed Meg was town. We'd still have our town tracker in that game--if it wasn't for what, with Ircher having flipped town, was apparently just a town player, Ircher, majorly fucking up in a way he absolutely should not have fucked up on.

I am not responsible for that; that was Ircher, and you can't pretend I am, because I made it abundantly clear what I wanted to do. I wanted Meg dead in game two, NOT game one. Ircher, apparently accidentally given that he is town in both games, fucked that up--but I REFUSE to take responsibility for HIS fuckup. And you might think it shitty to speak ill of the dead, but in this case, there's no sugar coating the truth: Ircher fucked up. He should NOT have hammered Meg in game #1. He SHOULD have known Meg was dead in game 2 and at L-1 in game 1. He didn't. And that's a fuckup on his end. You might consider it a bit harsh to rub salt in the wound and remind him of his fuckup after he paid for it with his life in both games, but I say it to illustrate my point: no matter how much you try to pin the blame on me for the Meg mislim, you

cannot

say that I was the one responsible for Meg's death in game #1.

When it comes to the Ircher elimination, it's similar: I did think Ircher was scum in both games, so I wanted him eliminated in both games, but I knew what the

plan

was. The

plan

involved Ircher being eliminated in game one

before

game two's elimination, desynchronizing the games.

I did not cast the hammer vote on Ircher in game #1 and then fail to unvote Ircher in game #2--that was House. You can argue that I have defended House, and I have indeed, and if House ends up flipping scum I will own up to that being added to the list of my fuckups--but I would like to remind you of that 'IF'. It requires House to flip scum first. You're fucking stupid if you do things out of order and mislim me before touching House because the argument for me being scum requires House being scum, meaning you always eliminate House BEFORE me. He flips town, I'm acquitted and we can say that he fucked up in game #2. Again, something I am not responsible for. He flips scum, THEN you can entertain the idea that I could be scum with him but at least you have a scum dead.

But either way, his hammer and lack of unvote is NOT something you can pin on me. You can pin defense of House on me IF he flips scum, but not a moment before.

I did not cast the hammer vote on Ircher in game #2--that was T3. If T3 is scum, that was him playing to wincon, but if T3 isn't scum, that was him majorly fucking up by getting the games to remain in synch when the whole plan was to desynch the games.


I have made fuckups, but you cannot place the entirety of the blame for how poorly both games are going on me--there is SIGNIFICANT blame to be had on literally every player who has voted on those elimination wagons,

especially

the town,

especially

if they hammered. As much blame as I will take. That being, I was wrong about Meg being scum in game 2 in spite of pushing there, and was wrong on Ircher being scum in spite of pushing him. As much as I am responsible for those things.

Don't fucking pretend I'm the reason we're in the situation we are in.

If you want to win the games, then eliminating me will continue to not do that for anyone except the scum since I am not scum in any of the games and am basically town in all 3.

If you want to win the games, then what you

should

be doing is looking at players' play and determining who is likely to be town in both remaining games and then from the remainder, figuring out who is the likely scum in which games and how to try and coordinate desynching the two games.

Also mood music which perfectly sums up what I am saying (just imagine I'm the singer):

[mastina]

Your solve on me is 100% wrong. Can’t wait for your explanation for all of this nonsense after I flip town. From my perspective here, you’re either doing some really good drugs, are shamelessly trolling me or actually are scum.

Um, my solve doesn't require you to be scum???

Read again.

My solve involves that, if you are town, which you insist that you are, it means:
In game #2, Radical Rat should be confscum to you;
In game #1, Dunnstral and House should be confscum to you.

[mastina]

Your argument is that I’m scum if I don’t auto scumread a slot for actually what bonkers insane batshit fucking reasons?

By mechanical POE, yes?

Questions:

Do you think Almost50 is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think CheekyTeeky is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think Lady Chloe is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think RCEnigma is scum in game #2?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

So if you answered 'no' to the above, then the list of possible scum to you would be limited to:
{

mastina

, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, Dunnstral, House, T3}.
It's not me so that leaves 5 names for 3 scum in both games 1 and 2.

Dwlee99 is confscum from game #2.

Do you think Dwlee is telling the truth about being town in game #1?

If the answer to this is 'yes', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

That'd leave 3 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #1 to you. 3/4 as scum.

It'd leave 2 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #2 to you.
Per CheekyTeeky's result, Radical Rat should be confscum to you, with a very high chance of T3 being scum there as well.

Do you think Radical Rat is scum in all three games?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

And if you answered 'no' to all but the Dwlee question which you answered 'yes' to, guess what?

That would leave the game #1 scumteam as {Dunnstral, House, T3} to you.

So tell me: what's batshit insane about this?

Where is this not correct?

Because it's pretty fucking solid logic.

[mastina]

Your argument is that I’m scum if I don’t auto scumread a slot for actually what bonkers insane batshit fucking reasons?

By mechanical POE, yes?

Questions:

Do you think Almost50 is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think CheekyTeeky is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think Lady Chloe is scum in any game?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

Do you think RCEnigma is scum in game #2?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

So if you answered 'no' to the above, then the list of possible scum to you would be limited to:
{

mastina

, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, Dunnstral, House, T3}.
It's not me so that leaves 5 names for 3 scum in both games 1 and 2.

Dwlee99 is confscum from game #2.

Do you think Dwlee is telling the truth about being town in game #1?

If the answer to this is 'yes', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

That'd leave 3 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #1 to you. 3/4 as scum.

It'd leave 2 scum in {Radical Rat, Dunnstral, House, T3} in game #2 to you.
Per CheekyTeeky's result, Radical Rat should be confscum to you, with a very high chance of T3 being scum there as well.

Do you think Radical Rat is scum in all three games?

If the answer to this is 'no', then that part of my post should be correct to you.

And if you answered 'no' to all but the Dwlee question which you answered 'yes' to, guess what?

That would leave the game #1 scumteam as {Dunnstral, House, T3} to you.

So tell me: what's batshit insane about this?

Where is this not correct?

Because it's pretty fucking solid logic.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

Your basing your reads on what you’re considering PoE but that’s also based on a lot of so far unproven assumptions. Fmpov, I only know with 100% certainty what I am. Yes I have reads but I only have certainty on myself and I’m not sure if you’re doing this intentionally or unintentionally but you are expecting me to have the same degree of certainty on others as myself and that’s ridiculous.

If you’re asking about my reads then fine but your framing it as if I should confidently know anyone’s alignment but my own and I obviously can’t possibly know that because I’m town.

You don't need certainty--just the existence of the reads is enough.

So again:
Do you think Almost50 is scum in any game? You have a read on him, yes?

Do you think CheekyTeeky is scum in any game? You have a read on her, yes?

Do you think Lady Chloe is scum in any game? You have a read on Taly, yes?

Do you think RCEnigma is scum in game #2? You have a read on him, yes?

Do you think that Dwlee is scum in game #1? You have a read on them in that game, yes?

Do you think that Radical Rat is scum in all three games? You have a read on him, yes?

The reads need not be certain. Just existing. In order to use the POE.

The reads need not be proven to be true 100% to still be used.

The assumptions might be unproven, but the assumptions are still based off of reads that, unless you disagree with the reads, should still hold true.

If you do not think any of {Almost50, CheekyTeeky, Lady Chloe, RCEnigma} are scum by your reads, you have an incredibly limited pool for who the possible scum are, limited even further by the revealed information in both games.
If you do not think Dwlee is scum in game #1, that limits the pool for who is possible scum there even further.
If you do not think that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, that limits the pool for who is possible scum even

further

.
And with the CheekyTeeky result being fairly damning for RR (and probably T3 as well), that gives even more narrowing of the scum pool.

[mastina]

(btw side-note, unrelated to current conversation: while Dwlee has "meta bad", if T3 doesn't realize that this is my towngame and I'm not lying about my 3p status, it's a scumclaim from him since he uses meta heavily and should be able to tell that this is basically my towngame in all three games.

Dunnstral has played with me before and also should know that this is my towngame. Not to the same extent as T3 because Dunnstral can on occasion be more like Dumbstral (sorry can't resist the pun, hope you don't take too much offense, Dunn) and be a dummy and not take past experience into account when reading me, but he still HAS extensive history with me, enough to have a good grasp on my towngame so

should

know that this is it.

House hasn't seen my scumgame unlike T3 and Dunnstral who have, so he might not know what I'm capable of as scum, but he should still have a decent idea because I've described my scumgame to him in multiple games where I was town--being town in those games, he should then know that my description of my scumgames in said games was honest and thus he should know that this not only looks like my prior towngames with him, but also that this is not anything remotely matching my description of my scumgame.

If any of them argue that I am groupscum, it's a scumclaim from them. Dwlee shouldn't argue I'm scum in game 1 but 'meta bad' means that they aren't as scumclaiming as House/T3/Dunnstral would be if they did; RR lacks the experience with me to know my towngame/scumgame intimately so he could argue it and not be scumclaiming.

But T3 not saying I'm town would 100% be a scumclaim; Dunnstral not saying I'm town would indicate him being scum; House saying I'm groupscum would be a scum indicator for him.)

[mastina]

Mastina, I respect you as a player and it is for that precise reason that I scumread you. Your "alibi" from N1 isn't an alibi. You yourself even acknowledge some of the many ways it fails to function as one in the very post where you claimed it. So, regardless of whatever meta you may or may not have going on here, surely you can understand that it's a bit of a bad look that you keep bringing it up and insisting it confirms you.

Because it does.

This is not the first time I have used this alibi.

It'd take me some time to track down the other towngames where I have, but it is in fact something I have done before as town. Because it IS effective as a method of basically clearing me.

Yes

, it's

possible

to have a scumteam so coordinated that the end of day flips do absolutely nothing to prevent them from presubmitting night actions and for them to have precoordinated them--although scumteams are fairly notorious for second-guessing themselves and wanting to change night actions midway through the night. It's definitely

possible

that this didn't happen, that a scumteam that I am on did not need to change anything from presubmitted night actions.

Yes

, it's

possible

to have a scumteam submit night actions missing a member of their team. But while it's

possible

, not contributing to the night's discussion as scum is basically gamethrowing. It's relying on teammates to make the most optimal play possible, without giving input. While my scumgame has deteriorated significantly, one of the few things about current scumastina which is still good is that ability to select intelligent nightkills. I'd need to be sacrificing the one thing that I am still decent at as scum in order to pull the alibi off.

It's

possible

, yes! (Which keeps it from being bannable--it's

possible

to do as scum.)

It's not

probable

.

Which is simpler?
I didn't log in because I had no reason to and actually had more reason not to...?

...Or I didn't log in, in spite of there being ample reason to, even if just to be sure things were going along in their presubmitted way? Where for some reason, I decided to pull a gambit that I've never pulled before as scum to break it being a town-only gambit from me in spite of the gambit going against my very nature as a scum player?

Occam's razor is on my side. The simpler explanation is that I didn't log in because I didn't need to.

But beyond that?

The proof I am not scum comes from the mod:

Technically mastina and house are due prods but it feels super weird to prod someone when all games are in night so this pm is a general reminder the game exists instead.

Prods when all games are in night will not count for overall prod purposes going forward.

Generally, mods are fairly bad at prodding scum players when scum players are posting in the scum PT but not the public thread. I know this from having gotten away with not posting for 92 hours in the main game thread but remaining active in scum PTs in prior games. A prod indicates a lack of site activity.

But more than that? The ultimate proof I am not scum?

I have received messages concerning the legality of mastina's play here, and in order to not have to address the concerns individually, will be making a blanket statement.

It is possible to have a hidden online status while interacting with the board.
I explicitly allow both the presubmission of night actions and the partners of informed minority players to enter submissions on behalf of an absent player to prevent vacations or disasters from being hard clearing.
I am not allowing (nor do I intend to allow in the future) scumteams to discuss the game via discord, as that gives additional functionality past what is intended to be available to a scumteam via a PT. (PTs do not have a ping function.)
I do allow night action submissions to be sent to me via discord, and my discord is publicly available through the ms server.

Who do you think was submitting the concerns about the legality of my alibi? Players who were town, but for whatever reason, decided to not voice their concerns publicly?

...No. The complaints are very very clearly scumplaining, scum complaining about what I am doing.

Further, while I do believe House/Dunnstral are likely scum (in games 1 and 2 respectively)

Okay so if I'm pushing House and Dunnstral, which game am I scum in? Which game am I bussing in? 'Cause that'd be the requirement.

this proclamation that they aren't allowed to scumread you because of your meta is complete nonsense in this setup. We know you're functionally Town in Game 2. That gives you an opportunity to play to your Town meta, genuinely even, while still potentially being Scum in Game 1. And that doesn't just apply to you, no one can be """confirmed""" through meta reads as long as multiple games are ongoing.

Blatantly false and already proven as much already.

A player's meta is

more

important in this game format. Not less. Because it is possible to see things like "town in all" and "scum in all" and "town in 1/3" and "town in 2/3" from meta cues.

If I were scum in a game, it would show in my play--but I have been playing town in

all

the games, and pretty damn transparently so.

or you have a good reason why you couldn't be playing to your Town meta despite having a Town-adjacent role in Game 2,

It's called "look at my scum meta".

Being town in a game does not stop me from still being scum in a game and knowing I am scum in that game and visibly showing that I am scum in that game. scumastina

cannot

gamesolve. scumastina

cannot

get angry. scumastina

cannot

go this far to win a game. scumastina is

not

that motivated. scumastina is more passive--but I've not been solving for just one game or just two games.

I've been solving for

all three

games. And if you want to argue I haven't been solving for all three games, good fucking luck; my iso is filled to the brim with the proof that I've been solving ALL of them. In a way that scumastina is fundamentally incapable of.

Mastina can you please point to your townslip and claim your full 3p role in G2?

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

^^^The townslip, explained.

As for my fullclaim in game #2, I'm

Steve

, aligned with the "Screw This All" faction.
I wandered into the DMV 4 years ago (for a driver license renewal), and have been stuck here ever since. I don't really care about what's happening; I just want out. I'll remain trapped until the mess of the paperwork is sorted, so I just want to survive, but I do want to have affairs in order so I can't win while there's more than two nontown alive.

I have a bulletproof, not really given flavor explanation aside from "what can paper do to you? A papercut?".

The role PM is honestly kinda a mess in being a ramble; it doesn't contain very clear formatting. And this is a bit of a paraphrase since again, don't want to eat a modkill.

[mastina]

(Btw side-note, there's multiple ways to ensure a player cannot use my strategy, both from a site administration side and a game moderator side. And the game moderator side can also ensures that a player cannot flake over the night phase.

Site administration can make Last Visited dates be permanently hidden, removing the option to opt in; this would make it impossible to tell if someone had or hadn't logged in, preventing the strategy.

Site administration could make an executive call and update the rules to specify that while what I did was technically legal, it's not going to be legal anymore, putting in a rule/rule clarification preventing it.

Game moderators can make it a rule to specify that while it may be legal by site standards, in their game they will not tolerate the strategy. Since game mod rules need to be respected, it'd force compliance or face game moderator punishment.

Or even better, and this method also ensures a slot cannot siteflake overnight: a game moderator can require

every

player to respond to the start of night PM, even if they don't have a night action, and if a slot fails to respond by the end of night's deadline, seek replacement for them and extend said deadline once a replacement is found. To prevent the exploit from being publicized via a slot deliberately not logging in, but once deadline hits, coming back and going "I'm here!", said replacement could be final and definitive, no takebacks from having come back.)

[mastina]

If you don't mind, I would like to see an example of you doing this as Town before though, since you say those examples exist.

Will do this later, is a bit too much effort for me to do right now.

@Titus:

Just got home and got my PMs. Please give me a bit to get my bearings as its three separate games at once.

I'll give you a brief summary: Game 3 is over in a town win.

Beyond that, look at these quotes for help.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, HAMMER!

Radical Rat (E-4):

Almost50, Ircher, Amy Dunne,

Dunnstral (E-6):

RCEnigma,

Ircher (E-6):

MegAzumarill,

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Lady Chloe,
With 13 alive, it takes

7

to murder/death/kill or

7

to choose not to.
The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-12-10 22:00:00).

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I will be told how many time 2 sequential votes are different. Like town scum town = 2
Town town scum scum = 1
And the demon vote alignment is considered in the result.

Yes I've confirmed DL counts.

Okay here's the deal. I am town in A, but scum in B, BUT my role is I'm a haterizer / loverizer combo so if I live the night I'll be able to haterize myself tonight and this will mean I need one less vote to be flipped tomorrow, meaning I can be hammered in B without dying in A. As it stands right now, I don't think it is possible to only lim me in B because no one is alive in A but not in B. But if we wait a day I CAN be limmed in B and not A

Well, I control the demon lord vote

Alright, so I am home, which means I need to do this:

In Game Two, I am

(technically)

a

Bulletproof Survivor

.
It's not quite a normal Survivor wincon; it's

almost

a Town Survivor.
My wincon is to survive to the end of the game with no more than two players who're not members of the Paperwork faction alive. (Is slightly paraphrased here, but obviously, can't do an exact quote without getting modkilled and you'll forgive me for being a bit cautious given that literally the last time I got 3p I did in fact eat a modkill.) I asked the mod and, yes, I count as one of those two.

In other words, per Jingle, if there are three scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose;
If there are two scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose.

I could

technically

win with the scum with only one scum alive, buuuuuuut: at that point, why bother? I'm just going to townside since I need two scum dead anyway, why not make it all three?

Given that I need AT LEAST two scum dead in order to win, and pragmatically speaking probably can get the fastest win just by having all three scum be eliminated, I've been playing as if I was town the entire time. (Because I would anyway because fuck playing 3ps as scum, they are town.)

I should give a full disclaimer/confession tho.
I wasn't really planning on claiming 3p here unless one of two conditions happened.

The reason why is simple;
Mafiascum has a murderboner for third parties.
They see a 3p claim, they see "oh they're not town that means we can just eliminate them!". Even when said 3p is basically town and probably the game was

balanced

around said 3p being treated as town. (As in, 3ps that are benign/benevolent are usually, for balance purposes, meant to be treated as a town PR, meaning that the game will have three groupscum and that the town eliminating the 3p on policy will fuck them over because they are not eliminating scum.)

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be scum, fakeclaiming 3p", in spite of the fact that I never fakeclaim as scum.

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be lying about being benevolent/benign 3p", which, being paranoia-based, I have no real ability to defend against.

I didn't want to deal with lazy town players not bothering to read my claim and thinking "oh survivor = basically 4th scum" in spite of the fact that, no, actually, I cannot in fact scumside because with 3 or 2 scum alive I don't win even if I live.

You know, the arguments: "mastina just admitted to not being town", "mastina isn't town", "mastina could be lying", "mastina might end the game in a solo win", "mastina could be scum fakeclaiming 3p", and such.

Given that I was playing as if I was town, I figured that by virtue of being obvtown due to not being scum and being, well, me, mastina, that I wouldn't need to claim 3p at all if I was just that obviously town anyway. So if I could get away with just pretending I was town, I would do so, and win with the town after eliminating the third scum. The town would never know I was 3p because I was acting as town the entire time, needed two scum dead in order to win anyway, and was working with the town as basically a fullblown town bulletproof which would allow me to relentlessly hunt down and eliminate the scum as if I were town.

With the caveat of the two potential scenarios where I would need to claim.

The first scenario is if someone just directly bluntly to my face asked me, "mastina, are you 3p?". Nobody did directly, but had they, that'd indicate that they would not go murderboner for eliminating claimed 3p and would in fact be willing to work with me. Town players willing to work with someone who basically is already town anyway? Of course I'd claim in a scenario with that, it'd be antitown to not.

The second scenario is what has happened: when

not

claiming would actually

hurt

the town.

CheekyTeeky's result means exactly that. If I pretended to be town when I am not, it could actually lead to a mislim on a player that I knew to be town--and given that I am trying my damnedest to be basically full-townside, I needed to speak up to prevent that and conftown the players who I know to be conftown from the CheekyTeeky result.

However, while I did indeed want to not claim unless one of those two scenarios came up, I did leave an abundantly clear loaf (breadcrumbs but so abundant that they're a full-ass loaf) in my iso where I would let you all know:

Spoiler: I REALLY didn't want to spoiler this because I REALLY wanted y'all to read it all but I ended up quoting enough that I think I need it, sadly

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

"basically the same", but not THE same. Because game #2 I am a survivor, that needs scum dead in a way that makes it basically a Town Survivor, just...not technically town.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all.

Notice that in response to Almost50, I didn't say "I'm town in all 3 games"; I said "I'm not scum at all". Because I

couldn't

say I was town in all 3 games because technically speaking I'm not even though the type of nontown I am is basically town anyway.

I said I wasn't scum at all because I'm in fact, not scum in any game.

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

Once more, though, you may note the usage: "prove that I am not scum", rather than 'prove that I am town'.
Because, if it was necessary, I wanted to leave it open for the chance for me to claim 3p if need be, if either of the two claim-conditions happened to come true (which the second one did).

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

I didn't say that *I* was town here, I just said that I wanted a triple town win from killing all the scum in all the games. Which is true; I want all the scum dead in all the games and that should generate a triple town win since I can in fact win with the town in spite of technically not being town due to basically still being town.

And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I don't have any scumgames here, but I didn't say "I have 3 towngames". (Since again, technically not a towngame even tho it pragmatically speaking is one.)

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too. I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts. One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot. Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it. Phoneposting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what role loses value when claimed? Bulletproof!
The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can explain better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty ass glitchy phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far. I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.
Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in game two.
Suffice to say, you can fuck off if you think that I am scum in any of the games.
I'm not.

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in. I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

. There's multiple reasons for this. I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but. I don't think it was actually meant as a joke. I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.

I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

I genuinely think that the claim

came from a position of both scum information

, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Here, it takes some explaining, but: basically, I saw MegAzumarill claim a third party and claim bulletproof and my thought instantly jumped to, "MegAzumarill is scum in game #2 who has TMI" and was thus not joking.

I was in fact planning to draw nightkills in game #2 (again, being bulletproof and being basically a town survivor that needs scum dead, drawing scum kills to me is a GOOD thing because they couldn't kill me and it'd put the town in a better position). However, I saw MegAzumarill's claim as hard proof that Meg was informed scum in game #2.

You may notice again: "I'm not scum in any of the games". I'm in fact not scum in any of the games! But I didn't say town in all of them because while I might be basically-town in game #2 I am technically not town.

There was in fact depth to my reads tho because I was dead serious in all of them. I, again, was attempting to get

nightkilled

in game #2. As a bulletproof, who needs scum dead in order to win, I needed to be playing as if I was town and furthering the town wincon. Meaning that I needed to be as town as I've ever been before, townier than that in fact.

I do think that Ircher also TMI'd tho--Ircher said, "mastina is town in precisely 2/3 of the games". That was in fact right. But why those words instead of "mastina is scum in 1/3 of the games"? It feels like Ircher was saying exactly what he meant to say because he knew it'd be exactly the truth. He can point to 418 and say he was 100% correct--but him being 100% correct is actually

the problem

. He

shouldn't

have had any inkling of me being non-town-but-not-scum in game #2. Because again, I was powertowning, more than I've ever towned before.

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

This is me explaining the townslip (well, slip of not being scum) further, but note again that I used 'not scum in any game', because I am in fact: not scum in any game!

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Again, I thought that Meg was TMI'ing in game #2 with the claim and was trying to bait me out.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Here I again explain why I thought that Meg TMI'd as being scum in game #2.

Beyond that, I laid out a modified version of my trueclaim.

I am not actually a miller, obviously.
But what I said there remains true:
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does).

All of those remain true because they are all actually true--I'm still basically town here. I show as the town result to almost every investigation, I'm not groupscum, I require scum to be dead in order to win, for all intents and purposes, I'm basically just town. Just, technically am not town due to technically not being town.

DID I NOT FUCKING HARD TOWNSLIP BY NOT BEING AWARE OF THE FUCKING NATURE OF THE SCUM/MASONS IN GAME THREE.
DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU YOU FUCKERS COULD FUCK OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING AM.

So fuck off with accusations of me being scum EVER again and hammering me when I'm fucking sleeping.

I again say "never am scum" here, because I'm not, but don't say 'always town', because that'd have been a lie.

I did fuck up in 1030 in saying 'town in all 3' tho.
I genuinely

meant

to say 'not scum', probably was too angry to notice the slip-up in breadcrumbing so I apologize for that.

I agree with ircher bigly

Fuck off, Dwlee.

I'm ticked enough that I got eliminated in ONE game.

I'm not going down when I have been putting in more effort than ever before in all three games.

Not a breadcrumb per se but this shows my mindset here:

I am not power-efforting scum; I am in fact, basically town in all three games (even though I am technically not town).

And there is some survivalism involved--because, natch, am a Survivor.

Mastina, town won because of T3's misfire.

Yes but I didn't know that when I was posting. I do now. But I didn't.

And just because they won doesn't mean I cannot be fucking pissed that you fucking mislimmed me while I was sleeping that game--it is a show of a (lack of) integrity.

Also need I remind you that I am at, what, L-2 now in both remaining games?

From "mastina is scum in 1/3 games" 'logic' that nobody backs up because there isn't any fucking logic had in a bullshit statement like that which goes contrary to everything?

I still have a right to be fucking furious here and I am enacting that right until the only votes on me are from scum.

This remains true but was another further hint at my role, in case I needed to claim it. (Which, thanks to the result, I do.)

Love getting cursed at for... winning

I have the right to curse at you for fucking voting me out both in game three and AFTER SEEING THAT I WAS TOWN THERE then deciding to vote me in BOTH THE REMAINING GAMES.

In spite of, yaknow.

Maybe.

Just maybe.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

I've been solving

all three

games from the

onset

. I've not been solving one game; I've been solving ALL of them. My reads are cross-game applying to ALL of them. So if you see me fucking flip town in game 3 after being fucking wrong there and then go on to proceed to VOTE ME IN BOTH REMAINING GAMES, I do in fact get to say:

Fuck. off.

Here I again say "not scum" (because I'm not) rather than "town" (because I'm technically not).

You're town in precisely two because you are doing your standard wallposts, but at the same time, I can see you are pushing an agenda.

The agenda was attempting to get fucking nightkilled in game #2 by being fucking bulletproof and knowing that, via being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't truly die in either of the other two. As in, due to being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't have my voice removed in game #1.

The

only

way to get rid of me would be via town idiocy in fucking eliminating a fucking BULLETPROOF. (That or a scum strongman but like--forcing scum to use the strongman > doing the fucking scum's work for them.)

The question is which game of 1/2 you are town in and which one you are scum in.

I'm not scum in ANY of the games because I fucking hard-townslipped in a way that I was fucking incapable of doing if I were scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Even if you believe this, it is still pretty poor form to immediately jump to counterclaim. You could have waited until you knew all the facts; it wasn't like you were in danger or anything.

This critique is proof that Ircher does not believe I am actually scum.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

First, you are assuming scum are playing optimally.

Yeah and if I was scum in game #2 no fucking shit I'd use the role optimally.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless

Here you get more hints. I again emphasize "not scum in any game", rather than "town in all 3 games", and I again point out Ircher's TMI and why I thought Meg had TMI. (I was wrong on Meg having TMI but I believe I am right on Ircher having had TMI in his read on me--he had me as 'not town', but his posts didn't indicate he thought I was scum, thus, he correctly identified me as 3p when he should not have been able to as town.)

I'll say that the agenda remains true; my agenda is to survive game #2 and kill all the scum because I can't win with them pretty much.

And I have been playing to my fucking town meta in ALL of them because guess what? Not scum in any of them.

That I wasn't playing with an agenda was already proven in game #3.

It would also be proven if I was fucking mislimmed in both games 1 and 2 because I am not fucking scum in all three and transparently so.

This remains true; I am not scum in any of the games and transparently so.

I am playing to my town meta in all three games, because while I'm technically not town in all 3, I'm

basically

town in all three.

I will say that I very strongly believed Meg to be scum TMI'ing in game #2 and wanted to eliminate Meg to basically hard-clear myself. If Meg flipped scum in game #2, then it'd clear me from being scum, meaning that people couldn't pull the bullshit "mastina is lying about being 3p" because I bloody killed scum.

Which, by the way, I can still do in the form of Dwlee and probably Ircher.

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

The motivation for this should be obvious:

As a survivor, I need to survive.
As not scum, I have an easy way to mostly prove I am not scum.
As such, I resorted to this in order to avoid my elimination.

(And yes, I did feel the need to resort to this. I am not being eliminated as a fucking bulletproof again. It's happened before and I am determined to make it never happen again. I could have obviously cleared myself if Meg flipped scum, but since Meg did not, I need to find and eliminate an actual scum in order to actually clear myself.)

Here I laid out my strategy and basically said: "I'm not dieing as third party again". (As a reminder, last time I claimed 3p I got modkilled but I know Jingle's a lot more laxed on rules than unwnd so the fear is more from the town than the wrath of mod.) I laid out my plan, my strategy, to clear myself of being scum by having eliminated scum. It'd not eliminate paranoia of me being malevolent 3p but it'd guarantee that people would see me as not-groupscum at the very least.

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste? Sure! But it's not against the rules.
And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as its not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do everything to win. And angleshooting to conftown myself is doing precisely that.

Being mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding it at all costs is playing to win.

Here I basically was claiming my real role anyway. I am obligated to do everything to win--as a Survivor, that means being confirmed as not groupscum is playing to my wincon. Being eliminated (which, to be clear, is still a mislim because

I am not scum

, I'm basically town even if I'm technically not because I require scum to be dead in order to win meaning that I am playing to the town wincon and thus, eliminating me IS a mislim!) obviously causes a Survivor to lose, so...

I SHOULD be obvtown by play.
I CAN'T pull this shit off as scum.
I DID hard townslip.
But in spite of this being THE TOWNIEST I'VE EVER BEEN, I'm STILL at risk of being mislimmed as a fucking bulletproof, who scum CAN'T kill, barring them burning a strongman.
So damn right I'm going to use EVERY tool in my arsenal to avert that.

More laying out that I am not scum and am playing to the town wincon.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I'm too tired to do proper analysis here but I think that this conftowns House, barring a town Demon Lord claim. (Since a Demon Lord won't claim tho, House should be conftown from it.)

From there, the options for the remaining three are:
-House->me->Cheeky (2/3) (would require me to not be town tho obv and still would leave a final alignment change--for instance, if the change was at RR then RR and Dwlee would both be scum; if the change was at Dwlee then Dwlee would be scum)
-me->Cheeky->T3 (2/3) (would require Cheeky to not be town tho in spite of this being Cheeky giving the result--seems kinda ridiculous)
-Cheeky->T3->RR->Dwlee (3/3) (would mean T3 and Dwlee are scum I think?)

I might not be thinking of all the possibilities but my townreads on T3/Dwlee do not override the chance of there being scum there.

I'm pretty sure that if you assume Cheeky is town here, then the only possible nontown are {mastina, T3, Dwlee} here?

Again, might be not thinking, should be more lucid to give it a better thought runthrough.

But I think that regardless, Dwlee might be confscum here?
VOTE: Dwlee99
Not sure, feel free to correct me, am tired, not thinking at full capacity, but I think that it has to fit regardless of your thoughts elsewhere.

So T3 or RR likely middle scum. House could be scum and Dwlee definitely scum.

I might be overlooking in my tiredness the RR scum world, I can't figure the math out there right now but that's probably where I am flawed in thinking.

At this point, I was already committing to claiming my status as third party, I just wanted Dwlee as scum dead first because if Dwlee died and flipped scum, that'd be the time for me to out myself.

But with Dwlee admitting they're scum, that moved up the timetable from "after the D2 elimination on Dwlee" to right now.

And to be clear, I do in fact know that Dwlee

must

be confscum. Even if they didn't confess, by knowing I'm 2/4 of the alignment changes, and with the Demon Lord as a third, that meant that the fourth must mean Dwlee was scum.

So what does all of this mean?

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

,

House

,

mastina

,

CheekyTeeky

, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, HAMMER!

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

What this means is that 3/4 of the shifts are:

Demon Lord

<1>

House

<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<->Radical Rat<->

Dwlee99

With the fourth and final alignment shift being after CheekyTeeky.

Which means the possibilities, most likely to least likely, are:

1:

CheekyTeeky

<->

T3<->Radical Rat

<4>

Dwlee99

(one scum on wagon, two off)
2:

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<4>

Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(two scum, RR+Dwlee back to back, on wagon, one off)
3:

CheekyTeeky

<4>

T3<->Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(all three scum on the wagon hammering it, as T3+RR+Dwlee)

What does this mean?

House and CheekyTeeky are confirmed as town.
If Radical Rat flips town, it confirms that T3 is conftown.
Dwlee is confscum no matter what.

As for who I think is scum

off

the wagon...

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

Radical Rat (E-4):

Almost50, Ircher, Amy Dunne,

Dunnstral (E-6):

RCEnigma,

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Lady Chloe,

Almost50's town in all games.
So is Lady Chloe/Taly.
RCE is probably town in game #3.

So that leaves the possible scum off the wagon as:
{Ircher, Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}

If the scumteam is {T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99} those three would be all town;
If the scumteam has {Radical Rat, Dwlee99} then those three would have 1/3 be scum;
If Radical Rat is town, then those three would have 2/3 be scum.

I believe that {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} has 1 scum and that Ircher is just scum in game #2.

(And yes, to be clear for the reading impaired: I

need

scum dead in game #2, and

cannot

win with 2/3 scum alive. Meaning that for all intents and purposes, I'm basically town.)

In Summary, CheekyTeeky wagon analyzed the D1 wagon.
Dunnstral has claimed responsibility for the Demon Lord, which counts as a change for the purpose of CheekyTeeky's role per CheekyTeeky.
Dwlee has admitted that they are scum in game #2.
I am 3p in game #2.

And when that information is combined, you get this information:

Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
mastina
MegAzumarill
Dwlee99
Dunnstral
Almost50
RCEnigma
CheekyTeeky
Lady Chloe
Ircher
House
T3

I am basically town in all three games.
Lady Chloe, Almost50, and CheekyTeeky, if any of them are scum frankly I'll just let them win the game because they're the players who'd have earned it via just being town.
RCEnigma is proven town in game 1 and is almost certainly town in game 2 as well.

So that leaves for scum candidates in both games:
Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
Dwlee99 (probably town in game 1 but confscum in game 2)
Dunnstral
House
T3

6 names for 3 scum in both games.

In game 2, from CheekyTeeky, we know there is an alignment change between House and me, me and CheekyTeeky, and a third at some point which makes Dwlee scum at the end.

The fourth can

only

be the Demon Lord, because there's no combination which can generate 4 changes otherwise.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-5>

Dwlee

is a change too many.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-3>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

The

only

possibility is the Demon Lord counting as a change;
House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is possible, but it means there's two scum off the wagon.
If we take {A50, Lady Chloe, RCE} to be town, and IF we take the above combo to be the correct one, that means the 2/3 possible scum off the wagon are PRECISELY:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum.

It would also mean that 1/2 of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} would be scum and the other would be town.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-4>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum,

in addition to

T3

also

being scum.

This is the only scenario in which both of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} are town.

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #2, Radical Rat should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 100% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

For Game #1, it's unfortunately more difficult to solve. It's

probably

not Dwlee.
I doubt that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, so if he's scum in game #2 (which is highly likely as the only way he's not scum in game 2 is if both Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are scum and I doubt that), he's probably also town in game #1 like Dwlee.

Which leaves the

probable

scum in game #1 as:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House, T3}.

T3 is probably scum in 1/2 games.

If Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both town in game #2, then T3 would probably be town in game #1 by virtue of being scum in game #2.
But if only 1/2 of Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are town in game #2, then T3 would probably be scum in game #1 by virtue of being town in game #2.

In other words, T3 is town in either game 1 or game 2, Amy Dunne and Dunnstral must have one game they are town in and one

Not deleting the above but striking it as I realized that while RR is probably not scum in all 3 games, there is a reasonable chance

T3

could in fact be scum in all 3 games, so the above thought process I abandoned once I realized it.

Still, though, regardless of T3 being scum in one game or both games, that means that there's a minimum of 2 scum in {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House} in game 1.

Which means that:

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #1, the other of you should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 99*% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

*The 1% is RR being scum in all three games.

You know what that also means?

Unless the scumteam for game #1 is precisely {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, T3} (or RR is scum in all 3 games, I guess, but again, that isn't very likely imo), House would be scum in game #1.

(I should add: it's technically possible for House to be scum in game #2 as there's no distinguishing between town and scum for him, but House is probably not scum in all three games the same way RR probably isn't, and the math for RR being basically confscum to Amy Dunne/Dunnstral remains true.)

Gonna quote the actual solvey part for people so it's more visible to folks.

[mastina]

VOTE: House
Would also vote {Dunnstral, T3, Radical Rat} but yeah House is the best lim here in game #1.

[mastina]

In game a I'm in a neighborhood with T3
Dwlee, RR, RCEnigma, House, Ircher
Ircher is still able to post and thinks that there are a lot of scum in the neighborhood due to low post count

Well either this is a lie or Jingle has once again fucked up Normal guidelines because per Normal guidelines, a neighbor should be required to flip as a Neighbor and neither House nor Ircher flipped as being a Neighbor.

A flip wouldn't show if it were a neighborizer, obviously, because the only one who'd show as the neighbor from a neighborizer is the neighborizer, but that's, what, seven names for a neighborhood? Not enough time to neighborize them all.

So I'm calling "Jingle why do you not do your bloody research" on this. Again.
(This is not the first theme game advertised as having "Normal Game mechanics" which then proceeded to have...a not-Normal game mechanic from Jingle in the 'Normal' game.)

(Kinda surprised Ircher didn't mention this tho. Ircher's a NRG member like me so he should've caught the fact that neighbors should flip as neighbors in a Normal game.)

[mastina]

I think House's death puts us at Elo, which is very bad, but I think at this point it has to be mastina.

Ah yes, I was scum for defending House before and now I am scum for having contributed to House's death.

Sure makes sense to me!

Suffice to say: No, I am not scum. I meant it from the very beginning and it fucking shows start to finish that I am basically town in all three games. The

only

game I am

not

town in is the second, where I'm still

basically

town.
(Speaking of the second game tho:
VOTE: Dwlee99
Just getting this in.)

Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
mastina
MegAzumarill
Dwlee99
Dunnstral
Almost50
RCEnigma
CheekyTeeky
Lady Chloe
Ircher
House
T3

I am basically town in all three games.
Lady Chloe, Almost50, and CheekyTeeky, if any of them are scum frankly I'll just let them win the game because they're the players who'd have earned it via just being town.
RCEnigma is proven town in game 1 and is almost certainly town in game 2 as well.

So that leaves for scum candidates in both games:
Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
Dwlee99 (probably town in game 1 but confscum in game 2)
Dunnstral
House
T3

6 names for 3 scum in both games.

In game 2, from CheekyTeeky, we know there is an alignment change between House and me, me and CheekyTeeky, and a third at some point which makes Dwlee scum at the end.

The fourth can

only

be the Demon Lord, because there's no combination which can generate 4 changes otherwise.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-5>

Dwlee

is a change too many.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-3>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

The

only

possibility is the Demon Lord counting as a change;
House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is possible, but it means there's two scum off the wagon.
If we take {A50, Lady Chloe, RCE} to be town, and IF we take the above combo to be the correct one, that means the 2/3 possible scum off the wagon are PRECISELY:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum.

It would also mean that 1/2 of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} would be scum and the other would be town.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-4>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum,

in addition to

T3

also

being scum.

This is the only scenario in which both of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} are town.

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #2, Radical Rat should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 100% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

For Game #1, it's unfortunately more difficult to solve. It's

probably

not Dwlee.
I doubt that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, so if he's scum in game #2 (which is highly likely as the only way he's not scum in game 2 is if both Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are scum and I doubt that), he's probably also town in game #1 like Dwlee.

Which leaves the

probable

scum in game #1 as:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House, T3}.

T3 is probably scum in 1/2 games.

If Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both town in game #2, then T3 would probably be town in game #1 by virtue of being scum in game #2.
But if only 1/2 of Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are town in game #2, then T3 would probably be scum in game #1 by virtue of being town in game #2.

In other words, T3 is town in either game 1 or game 2, Amy Dunne and Dunnstral must have one game they are town in and one

Not deleting the above but striking it as I realized that while RR is probably not scum in all 3 games, there is a reasonable chance

T3

could in fact be scum in all 3 games, so the above thought process I abandoned once I realized it.

Still, though, regardless of T3 being scum in one game or both games, that means that there's a minimum of 2 scum in {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House} in game 1.

Which means that:

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #1, the other of you should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 99*% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

*The 1% is RR being scum in all three games.

You know what that also means?

Unless the scumteam for game #1 is precisely {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, T3} (or RR is scum in all 3 games, I guess, but again, that isn't very likely imo), House would be scum in game #1.

(I should add: it's technically possible for House to be scum in game #2 as there's no distinguishing between town and scum for him, but House is probably not scum in all three games the same way RR probably isn't, and the math for RR being basically confscum to Amy Dunne/Dunnstral remains true.)

Gonna quote the actual solvey part for people so it's more visible to folks.

This continues to be true, even with House flipping town in game #1:

Almost50/Titus is town.
Lady Chloe is town.
CheekyTeeky is town.
I am town.

Given those four as town, the scum in the mini normal can only be:
{Radical Rat, T3, Dunnstral, Dwlee99}.
If you believe Dwlee to be town in game 1 the scumteam is exactly {Radical Rat, T3, Dunnstral}.
If you believe Dwlee was lying and is scum in both game A and B that gives extra flexibility butstill, a minimum of 2/3 of {RR, T3, Dunnstral} would be scum, and my top two preferences for game one are Radical Rat and T3.

[mastina]

why does scum!RR kill me? Does that make sense to anyone?

I think at this point it has to be mastina.

I'll give you one guess.

(For the record, no, I never kill Amy Dunne here. I can prove it with meta, too--I've got a VERY DAMN LONG history of killing players I HAVE HISTORY WITH. CheekyTeeky, Almost50, Lady Chloe. Why are they all alive if I'm scum? They're the players I'd consider threats. I don't give a flying fuck about people scumreading me, scumreads on me are not threatening when they are not backed by the ability to use that read to leverage an advantage. Lady Dunne wasn't obvtown and was someone I was pushing to eliminate and wasn't charismatic and wasn't even hard-scumreading me. So she would be the literal BOTTOM of my nightkill priority and if you doubt this, I will bring up a very very long list of scumgames and the kills I make in them which will demonstrate why the Lady Chloe kill hard-clears me.

You might want to point out, "but mastina, weren't you gone?". Wrong night, buddy. I was gone N1 when RCE died. RCE is in fact a kill which fits my modus operandi, but that was the night I wasn't around at all. The night Lady Chloe was killed, I was around the whole night, logging in like 10 different times and actively posting. You could argue quite well I was scum if the kill order were reversed, if the kill I would never make happened on the night I wasn't around and the kill I definitely would make was on the night I was around, but the fact of the matter is, the kills hard-clear me.)

[mastina]

Do you mean Amy instead of Lady Chloe?

No?

I have a long history of Taly. I consider Taly to be one of the best town players onsite in fact. Taly is Lady Chloe and is alive in both games.

I've never played with Amy Dunne before and from what I've seen thusfar, I'm not gonna lie: I'm not too impressed. Amy Dunne kinda feels like a discount Nancy Drew to me, might have the potential to grow to Nancy Drew levels eventually but is very much not at them yet, meaning that Amy Dunne is just...not someone I've interest in killing.

The Amy Dunne nightkill hard-clears me because I would not kill Amy Dunne and I was around that night.

My

nightkills would be the likes of Lady Chloe, Almost50/Titus, and you. *Especially* you, actually, given that Dwlee was telling the truth about killing you in game 2, meaning had I killed you in game 1 it'd remove you from the game. But all three of you are alive in the Normal because I am not scum there.

[mastina]

Oh wait I actually did misspeak in the latter half of 2013 so yes, I do indeed mean Amy Dunne there.

To be clear:
Amy Dunne is not someone I ever nightkill here because I don't consider Amy Dunne to be nightkill-worthy. Maybe after Amy Dunne is around more they can become Nancy Drew levels of nightkill worthy but

right now

, they just

aren't

. Nothing about them warrants that respect. Not obvtown, not charismatic, and probably not accurate. (Granted the last is also true of Nancy, but she's still obvtown and can throw her weight around.) Not yet at least. (I see the potential, I just think it's not realized yet and with it not being realized yet, it's not worth it right now.)

I was around N2 to decide night actions then.

I was not around N1 during the night RCE died.

While RCE is a kill I would make, the kills are backwards to what would fit a scumastina narrative. If Amy Dunne died the night I wasn't around and RCE died the night I was around, it'd make sense, but RCE died on the night I

wasn't

around and Amy Dunne died the night I

was

around.

If I was scum, I'd be killing the likes of {CheekyTeeky, Lady Chloe, Almost50/Titus}.
Not the likes of Amy Dunne.

[mastina]

why does scum!RR kill me? Does that make sense to anyone?

I think at this point it has to be mastina.

I'll give you one guess.

(For the record, no, I never kill Amy Dunne here. I can prove it with meta, too--I've got a VERY DAMN LONG history of killing players I HAVE HISTORY WITH. CheekyTeeky, Almost50, Lady Chloe. Why are they all alive if I'm scum? They're the players I'd consider threats. I don't give a flying fuck about people scumreading me, scumreads on me are not threatening when they are not backed by the ability to use that read to leverage an advantage. Amy Dunne wasn't obvtown and was someone I was pushing to eliminate and wasn't charismatic and wasn't even hard-scumreading me. So she would be the literal BOTTOM of my nightkill priority and if you doubt this, I will bring up a very very long list of scumgames and the kills I make in them which will demonstrate why the Amy Dunne kill hard-clears me.

You might want to point out, "but mastina, weren't you gone?". Wrong night, buddy. I was gone N1 when RCE died. RCE is in fact a kill which fits my modus operandi, but that was the night I wasn't around at all. The night Amy Dunne was killed, I was around the whole night, logging in like 10 different times and actively posting. You could argue quite well I was scum if the kill order were reversed, if the kill I would never make happened on the night I wasn't around and the kill I definitely would make was on the night I was around, but the fact of the matter is, the kills hard-clear me.)

(fixing the misspeaking I did)

[mastina]

Why in tarnations would anyone kill me mastina? I'm getting little interaction and I am confused.

Well, A50 was obvtown, and killworthy.

You remain obvtown and it's specifically the reasons you mentioned which make you a good night kill. You're a new perspective and thus, a danger to a scum sweep.

[mastina]

@Mastina, what do you think of my tentative VCA analysis? Does it work with the wagon sensor?

Your vca post was borked by bad formatting thanks to no nested spoilers.

So I'm not sure that I got it all. I saw the end part tho.
If you think that middle of the wagon is scum in game 2 tho, the wagon analyzer says basically the opposite in G2/B. The only middle vote who could be scum is T3, and T3 being scum would require that the scumteam of game 2/B be precisely T3+RR+Dwlee. Which is the three end votes of the wagon.

[mastina]

Ah yes, I was scum for defending House before and now I am scum for having contributed to House's death.

Sure makes sense to me!

Initially, I thought extending your easily fakeable alibi to House was a potential indicator you were scum together, yes. However, that's clearly not the case now, so I guess it was either a failed pocket attempt, or simply made to look like an associative in case you flipped first.

But regardless of your intent dragging House into your "alibi," you did establish that he should have been cleared just as much as you were. So it doesn't really make sense for you to help push that elimination, unless you actually did understand that your "alibi" proves nothing, in which case you wouldn't have been using it to clear yourself

1: it did not escape my notice that you're focusing here and not on how the Amy Dunne night kill clears me.
2: this is a bullshit accusation for multiple reasons.
-House being as clear as me required research. His profile would need to have his Last Visited not be hidden. I never did that research, so I never fully cleared him. I thought that it was a valid town tell, yes, but lacking the research to confirm, I wasn't AS sure.
-Town players are allowed to reevaluate their reads and reassess assumptions and reasons. They do this more than scum do.
-Town players are allowed to forget their reasons for town reading a slot, and in fact, 90% of mid to lategame townies do. 98% of paranoia reads are born from forgetting why you townread a slot.
-The House townread was before I did my reassessment. When I did, he was in the PoE remaining.
-I have three axes in how I read players: generic expectations, refined meta, are 2/3. The third? Trust in the group consensus. If every player has a read on a player contrary to mine, it influences my read. I was the ONLY person town reading House, so I doubted my read due to group consensus.
-Amy Dunne was the strongest proponent of House being scum, and was the night kill. Was I meant to ignore the NKA implications of that?

But if you want to continue to invent bullshit reasons to keep me as a suspect, feel free to vote me.
If you're town, the blame for the town loss will be SOLELY on you, since every other player should be able to tell that I am town.
If you're scum? I welcome the 1v1 gladly, 'cause good luck convincing the players who know my meta that I'm scum.
By the way, the number of players who know said meta is literally all of them among the living. Amy Dunne was the only one who wouldn't.

[mastina]

(I can add a small clarification to the above, but, am working, so later.)

[mastina]

Dwlee99 has been eliminated in the Mini Theme!

They were:

Spoiler:

Welcome, Dwlee99 to Triplicate Mafia: Carbon Paper. A love letter to Bureaucracy at its finest.

You are

Petition 1969

, aligned with the Petition faction.

You have your voice, your vote, and a secret lounge where you and the other Petitions may lounge around and play Snooker. Additionally, to make you less useless than real world petitions, you may straight up murder someone every night.

Additionally, you may target a player each night and choose Loved or Hated. That player will have that modifier for the next day phase as long as there are at least three more non Petition players than Petition players.

You win when Petitions control half of the votes, or nothing can prevent this from happening.

It is now night in the Mini Theme.

Night actions are due within (expired on 2021-12-14 01:00:00).

Now if we can get one scum in A. I have no idea who would kill me in this game but scum must have feared RCE so that’s why I’ve been focused on that and why based on my earlier argument about scum!RR not having played with RCE since 2020 if ever, doesn’t really make sense to me that he’d kill him in this game, so my working theory is that scum had good reason to fear RCE. Mastina, why does RR kill me here? It just sounds pretty dumb to me.

I can give speculation, but honestly, I don't know why the scum have made the kills that they have. I can tell you why they're not the kills I'd make, because of them not making sense to me as kills (well, sort of), but I can't tell you why scum made moves which, frankly, I agree with you in being suboptimal.

The fact remains that someone made the suboptimal night kill.

I feel that I can fairly definitively demonstrate why I don't make that suboptimal kill, but I can't figure out who the player most likely to make said suboptimal kill would be.

[mastina]

Oh dear

{Titus/Cheeky/mastina}

I can't think any further. The savagery would take me.

That's the best possible townbloc you've got there.

[mastina]

Cheeky, you were VT in Game 2, yes? Not wagon analyzer?

Read her flip again, she was a wagon analyzer there.

[mastina]

Hi there

So what is the best way to not feel completely lost in this game?

I wrote a post to Titus to help her, gimme a moment to quote it and it'll help you.

[mastina]

If you don't mind, I would like to see an example of you doing this as Town before though, since you say those examples exist.

Will do this later, is a bit too much effort for me to do right now.

@Titus:

Just got home and got my PMs. Please give me a bit to get my bearings as its three separate games at once.

I'll give you a brief summary: Game 3 is over in a town win.

Beyond that, look at these quotes for help.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, HAMMER!

Radical Rat (E-4):

Almost50, Ircher, Amy Dunne,

Dunnstral (E-6):

RCEnigma,

Ircher (E-6):

MegAzumarill,

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Lady Chloe,
With 13 alive, it takes

7

to murder/death/kill or

7

to choose not to.
The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-12-10 22:00:00).

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I will be told how many time 2 sequential votes are different. Like town scum town = 2
Town town scum scum = 1
And the demon vote alignment is considered in the result.

Yes I've confirmed DL counts.

Okay here's the deal. I am town in A, but scum in B, BUT my role is I'm a haterizer / loverizer combo so if I live the night I'll be able to haterize myself tonight and this will mean I need one less vote to be flipped tomorrow, meaning I can be hammered in B without dying in A. As it stands right now, I don't think it is possible to only lim me in B because no one is alive in A but not in B. But if we wait a day I CAN be limmed in B and not A

Well, I control the demon lord vote

Alright, so I am home, which means I need to do this:

In Game Two, I am

(technically)

a

Bulletproof Survivor

.
It's not quite a normal Survivor wincon; it's

almost

a Town Survivor.
My wincon is to survive to the end of the game with no more than two players who're not members of the Paperwork faction alive. (Is slightly paraphrased here, but obviously, can't do an exact quote without getting modkilled and you'll forgive me for being a bit cautious given that literally the last time I got 3p I did in fact eat a modkill.) I asked the mod and, yes, I count as one of those two.

In other words, per Jingle, if there are three scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose;
If there are two scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose.

I could

technically

win with the scum with only one scum alive, buuuuuuut: at that point, why bother? I'm just going to townside since I need two scum dead anyway, why not make it all three?

Given that I need AT LEAST two scum dead in order to win, and pragmatically speaking probably can get the fastest win just by having all three scum be eliminated, I've been playing as if I was town the entire time. (Because I would anyway because fuck playing 3ps as scum, they are town.)

I should give a full disclaimer/confession tho.
I wasn't really planning on claiming 3p here unless one of two conditions happened.

The reason why is simple;
Mafiascum has a murderboner for third parties.
They see a 3p claim, they see "oh they're not town that means we can just eliminate them!". Even when said 3p is basically town and probably the game was

balanced

around said 3p being treated as town. (As in, 3ps that are benign/benevolent are usually, for balance purposes, meant to be treated as a town PR, meaning that the game will have three groupscum and that the town eliminating the 3p on policy will fuck them over because they are not eliminating scum.)

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be scum, fakeclaiming 3p", in spite of the fact that I never fakeclaim as scum.

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be lying about being benevolent/benign 3p", which, being paranoia-based, I have no real ability to defend against.

I didn't want to deal with lazy town players not bothering to read my claim and thinking "oh survivor = basically 4th scum" in spite of the fact that, no, actually, I cannot in fact scumside because with 3 or 2 scum alive I don't win even if I live.

You know, the arguments: "mastina just admitted to not being town", "mastina isn't town", "mastina could be lying", "mastina might end the game in a solo win", "mastina could be scum fakeclaiming 3p", and such.

Given that I was playing as if I was town, I figured that by virtue of being obvtown due to not being scum and being, well, me, mastina, that I wouldn't need to claim 3p at all if I was just that obviously town anyway. So if I could get away with just pretending I was town, I would do so, and win with the town after eliminating the third scum. The town would never know I was 3p because I was acting as town the entire time, needed two scum dead in order to win anyway, and was working with the town as basically a fullblown town bulletproof which would allow me to relentlessly hunt down and eliminate the scum as if I were town.

With the caveat of the two potential scenarios where I would need to claim.

The first scenario is if someone just directly bluntly to my face asked me, "mastina, are you 3p?". Nobody did directly, but had they, that'd indicate that they would not go murderboner for eliminating claimed 3p and would in fact be willing to work with me. Town players willing to work with someone who basically is already town anyway? Of course I'd claim in a scenario with that, it'd be antitown to not.

The second scenario is what has happened: when

not

claiming would actually

hurt

the town.

CheekyTeeky's result means exactly that. If I pretended to be town when I am not, it could actually lead to a mislim on a player that I knew to be town--and given that I am trying my damnedest to be basically full-townside, I needed to speak up to prevent that and conftown the players who I know to be conftown from the CheekyTeeky result.

However, while I did indeed want to not claim unless one of those two scenarios came up, I did leave an abundantly clear loaf (breadcrumbs but so abundant that they're a full-ass loaf) in my iso where I would let you all know:

Spoiler: I REALLY didn't want to spoiler this because I REALLY wanted y'all to read it all but I ended up quoting enough that I think I need it, sadly

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

"basically the same", but not THE same. Because game #2 I am a survivor, that needs scum dead in a way that makes it basically a Town Survivor, just...not technically town.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all.

Notice that in response to Almost50, I didn't say "I'm town in all 3 games"; I said "I'm not scum at all". Because I

couldn't

say I was town in all 3 games because technically speaking I'm not even though the type of nontown I am is basically town anyway.

I said I wasn't scum at all because I'm in fact, not scum in any game.

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

Once more, though, you may note the usage: "prove that I am not scum", rather than 'prove that I am town'.
Because, if it was necessary, I wanted to leave it open for the chance for me to claim 3p if need be, if either of the two claim-conditions happened to come true (which the second one did).

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

I didn't say that *I* was town here, I just said that I wanted a triple town win from killing all the scum in all the games. Which is true; I want all the scum dead in all the games and that should generate a triple town win since I can in fact win with the town in spite of technically not being town due to basically still being town.

And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I don't have any scumgames here, but I didn't say "I have 3 towngames". (Since again, technically not a towngame even tho it pragmatically speaking is one.)

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too. I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts. One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot. Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it. Phoneposting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what role loses value when claimed? Bulletproof!
The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can explain better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty ass glitchy phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far. I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.
Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in game two.
Suffice to say, you can fuck off if you think that I am scum in any of the games.
I'm not.

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in. I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

. There's multiple reasons for this. I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but. I don't think it was actually meant as a joke. I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.

I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

I genuinely think that the claim

came from a position of both scum information

, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Here, it takes some explaining, but: basically, I saw MegAzumarill claim a third party and claim bulletproof and my thought instantly jumped to, "MegAzumarill is scum in game #2 who has TMI" and was thus not joking.

I was in fact planning to draw nightkills in game #2 (again, being bulletproof and being basically a town survivor that needs scum dead, drawing scum kills to me is a GOOD thing because they couldn't kill me and it'd put the town in a better position). However, I saw MegAzumarill's claim as hard proof that Meg was informed scum in game #2.

You may notice again: "I'm not scum in any of the games". I'm in fact not scum in any of the games! But I didn't say town in all of them because while I might be basically-town in game #2 I am technically not town.

There was in fact depth to my reads tho because I was dead serious in all of them. I, again, was attempting to get

nightkilled

in game #2. As a bulletproof, who needs scum dead in order to win, I needed to be playing as if I was town and furthering the town wincon. Meaning that I needed to be as town as I've ever been before, townier than that in fact.

I do think that Ircher also TMI'd tho--Ircher said, "mastina is town in precisely 2/3 of the games". That was in fact right. But why those words instead of "mastina is scum in 1/3 of the games"? It feels like Ircher was saying exactly what he meant to say because he knew it'd be exactly the truth. He can point to 418 and say he was 100% correct--but him being 100% correct is actually

the problem

. He

shouldn't

have had any inkling of me being non-town-but-not-scum in game #2. Because again, I was powertowning, more than I've ever towned before.

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

This is me explaining the townslip (well, slip of not being scum) further, but note again that I used 'not scum in any game', because I am in fact: not scum in any game!

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Again, I thought that Meg was TMI'ing in game #2 with the claim and was trying to bait me out.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Here I again explain why I thought that Meg TMI'd as being scum in game #2.

Beyond that, I laid out a modified version of my trueclaim.

I am not actually a miller, obviously.
But what I said there remains true:
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does).

All of those remain true because they are all actually true--I'm still basically town here. I show as the town result to almost every investigation, I'm not groupscum, I require scum to be dead in order to win, for all intents and purposes, I'm basically just town. Just, technically am not town due to technically not being town.

DID I NOT FUCKING HARD TOWNSLIP BY NOT BEING AWARE OF THE FUCKING NATURE OF THE SCUM/MASONS IN GAME THREE.
DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU YOU FUCKERS COULD FUCK OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING AM.

So fuck off with accusations of me being scum EVER again and hammering me when I'm fucking sleeping.

I again say "never am scum" here, because I'm not, but don't say 'always town', because that'd have been a lie.

I did fuck up in 1030 in saying 'town in all 3' tho.
I genuinely

meant

to say 'not scum', probably was too angry to notice the slip-up in breadcrumbing so I apologize for that.

I agree with ircher bigly

Fuck off, Dwlee.

I'm ticked enough that I got eliminated in ONE game.

I'm not going down when I have been putting in more effort than ever before in all three games.

Not a breadcrumb per se but this shows my mindset here:

I am not power-efforting scum; I am in fact, basically town in all three games (even though I am technically not town).

And there is some survivalism involved--because, natch, am a Survivor.

Mastina, town won because of T3's misfire.

Yes but I didn't know that when I was posting. I do now. But I didn't.

And just because they won doesn't mean I cannot be fucking pissed that you fucking mislimmed me while I was sleeping that game--it is a show of a (lack of) integrity.

Also need I remind you that I am at, what, L-2 now in both remaining games?

From "mastina is scum in 1/3 games" 'logic' that nobody backs up because there isn't any fucking logic had in a bullshit statement like that which goes contrary to everything?

I still have a right to be fucking furious here and I am enacting that right until the only votes on me are from scum.

This remains true but was another further hint at my role, in case I needed to claim it. (Which, thanks to the result, I do.)

Love getting cursed at for... winning

I have the right to curse at you for fucking voting me out both in game three and AFTER SEEING THAT I WAS TOWN THERE then deciding to vote me in BOTH THE REMAINING GAMES.

In spite of, yaknow.

Maybe.

Just maybe.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

I've been solving

all three

games from the

onset

. I've not been solving one game; I've been solving ALL of them. My reads are cross-game applying to ALL of them. So if you see me fucking flip town in game 3 after being fucking wrong there and then go on to proceed to VOTE ME IN BOTH REMAINING GAMES, I do in fact get to say:

Fuck. off.

Here I again say "not scum" (because I'm not) rather than "town" (because I'm technically not).

You're town in precisely two because you are doing your standard wallposts, but at the same time, I can see you are pushing an agenda.

The agenda was attempting to get fucking nightkilled in game #2 by being fucking bulletproof and knowing that, via being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't truly die in either of the other two. As in, due to being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't have my voice removed in game #1.

The

only

way to get rid of me would be via town idiocy in fucking eliminating a fucking BULLETPROOF. (That or a scum strongman but like--forcing scum to use the strongman > doing the fucking scum's work for them.)

The question is which game of 1/2 you are town in and which one you are scum in.

I'm not scum in ANY of the games because I fucking hard-townslipped in a way that I was fucking incapable of doing if I were scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Even if you believe this, it is still pretty poor form to immediately jump to counterclaim. You could have waited until you knew all the facts; it wasn't like you were in danger or anything.

This critique is proof that Ircher does not believe I am actually scum.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

First, you are assuming scum are playing optimally.

Yeah and if I was scum in game #2 no fucking shit I'd use the role optimally.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless

Here you get more hints. I again emphasize "not scum in any game", rather than "town in all 3 games", and I again point out Ircher's TMI and why I thought Meg had TMI. (I was wrong on Meg having TMI but I believe I am right on Ircher having had TMI in his read on me--he had me as 'not town', but his posts didn't indicate he thought I was scum, thus, he correctly identified me as 3p when he should not have been able to as town.)

I'll say that the agenda remains true; my agenda is to survive game #2 and kill all the scum because I can't win with them pretty much.

And I have been playing to my fucking town meta in ALL of them because guess what? Not scum in any of them.

That I wasn't playing with an agenda was already proven in game #3.

It would also be proven if I was fucking mislimmed in both games 1 and 2 because I am not fucking scum in all three and transparently so.

This remains true; I am not scum in any of the games and transparently so.

I am playing to my town meta in all three games, because while I'm technically not town in all 3, I'm

basically

town in all three.

I will say that I very strongly believed Meg to be scum TMI'ing in game #2 and wanted to eliminate Meg to basically hard-clear myself. If Meg flipped scum in game #2, then it'd clear me from being scum, meaning that people couldn't pull the bullshit "mastina is lying about being 3p" because I bloody killed scum.

Which, by the way, I can still do in the form of Dwlee and probably Ircher.

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

The motivation for this should be obvious:

As a survivor, I need to survive.
As not scum, I have an easy way to mostly prove I am not scum.
As such, I resorted to this in order to avoid my elimination.

(And yes, I did feel the need to resort to this. I am not being eliminated as a fucking bulletproof again. It's happened before and I am determined to make it never happen again. I could have obviously cleared myself if Meg flipped scum, but since Meg did not, I need to find and eliminate an actual scum in order to actually clear myself.)

Here I laid out my strategy and basically said: "I'm not dieing as third party again". (As a reminder, last time I claimed 3p I got modkilled but I know Jingle's a lot more laxed on rules than unwnd so the fear is more from the town than the wrath of mod.) I laid out my plan, my strategy, to clear myself of being scum by having eliminated scum. It'd not eliminate paranoia of me being malevolent 3p but it'd guarantee that people would see me as not-groupscum at the very least.

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste? Sure! But it's not against the rules.
And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as its not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do everything to win. And angleshooting to conftown myself is doing precisely that.

Being mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding it at all costs is playing to win.

Here I basically was claiming my real role anyway. I am obligated to do everything to win--as a Survivor, that means being confirmed as not groupscum is playing to my wincon. Being eliminated (which, to be clear, is still a mislim because

I am not scum

, I'm basically town even if I'm technically not because I require scum to be dead in order to win meaning that I am playing to the town wincon and thus, eliminating me IS a mislim!) obviously causes a Survivor to lose, so...

I SHOULD be obvtown by play.
I CAN'T pull this shit off as scum.
I DID hard townslip.
But in spite of this being THE TOWNIEST I'VE EVER BEEN, I'm STILL at risk of being mislimmed as a fucking bulletproof, who scum CAN'T kill, barring them burning a strongman.
So damn right I'm going to use EVERY tool in my arsenal to avert that.

More laying out that I am not scum and am playing to the town wincon.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I'm too tired to do proper analysis here but I think that this conftowns House, barring a town Demon Lord claim. (Since a Demon Lord won't claim tho, House should be conftown from it.)

From there, the options for the remaining three are:
-House->me->Cheeky (2/3) (would require me to not be town tho obv and still would leave a final alignment change--for instance, if the change was at RR then RR and Dwlee would both be scum; if the change was at Dwlee then Dwlee would be scum)
-me->Cheeky->T3 (2/3) (would require Cheeky to not be town tho in spite of this being Cheeky giving the result--seems kinda ridiculous)
-Cheeky->T3->RR->Dwlee (3/3) (would mean T3 and Dwlee are scum I think?)

I might not be thinking of all the possibilities but my townreads on T3/Dwlee do not override the chance of there being scum there.

I'm pretty sure that if you assume Cheeky is town here, then the only possible nontown are {mastina, T3, Dwlee} here?

Again, might be not thinking, should be more lucid to give it a better thought runthrough.

But I think that regardless, Dwlee might be confscum here?
VOTE: Dwlee99
Not sure, feel free to correct me, am tired, not thinking at full capacity, but I think that it has to fit regardless of your thoughts elsewhere.

So T3 or RR likely middle scum. House could be scum and Dwlee definitely scum.

I might be overlooking in my tiredness the RR scum world, I can't figure the math out there right now but that's probably where I am flawed in thinking.

At this point, I was already committing to claiming my status as third party, I just wanted Dwlee as scum dead first because if Dwlee died and flipped scum, that'd be the time for me to out myself.

But with Dwlee admitting they're scum, that moved up the timetable from "after the D2 elimination on Dwlee" to right now.

And to be clear, I do in fact know that Dwlee

must

be confscum. Even if they didn't confess, by knowing I'm 2/4 of the alignment changes, and with the Demon Lord as a third, that meant that the fourth must mean Dwlee was scum.

So what does all of this mean?

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

,

House

,

mastina

,

CheekyTeeky

, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99, HAMMER!

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

What this means is that 3/4 of the shifts are:

Demon Lord

<1>

House

<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<->Radical Rat<->

Dwlee99

With the fourth and final alignment shift being after CheekyTeeky.

Which means the possibilities, most likely to least likely, are:

1:

CheekyTeeky

<->

T3<->Radical Rat

<4>

Dwlee99

(one scum on wagon, two off)
2:

CheekyTeeky

<->T3<4>

Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(two scum, RR+Dwlee back to back, on wagon, one off)
3:

CheekyTeeky

<4>

T3<->Radical Rat<->Dwlee99

(all three scum on the wagon hammering it, as T3+RR+Dwlee)

What does this mean?

House and CheekyTeeky are confirmed as town.
If Radical Rat flips town, it confirms that T3 is conftown.
Dwlee is confscum no matter what.

As for who I think is scum

off

the wagon...

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

Radical Rat (E-4):

Almost50, Ircher, Amy Dunne,

Dunnstral (E-6):

RCEnigma,

Not Voting (2):

Dunnstral, Lady Chloe,

Almost50's town in all games.
So is Lady Chloe/Taly.
RCE is probably town in game #3.

So that leaves the possible scum off the wagon as:
{Ircher, Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}

If the scumteam is {T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99} those three would be all town;
If the scumteam has {Radical Rat, Dwlee99} then those three would have 1/3 be scum;
If Radical Rat is town, then those three would have 2/3 be scum.

I believe that {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} has 1 scum and that Ircher is just scum in game #2.

(And yes, to be clear for the reading impaired: I

need

scum dead in game #2, and

cannot

win with 2/3 scum alive. Meaning that for all intents and purposes, I'm basically town.)

In Summary, CheekyTeeky wagon analyzed the D1 wagon.
Dunnstral has claimed responsibility for the Demon Lord, which counts as a change for the purpose of CheekyTeeky's role per CheekyTeeky.
Dwlee has admitted that they are scum in game #2.
I am 3p in game #2.

And when that information is combined, you get this information:

Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
mastina
MegAzumarill
Dwlee99
Dunnstral
Almost50
RCEnigma
CheekyTeeky
Lady Chloe
Ircher
House
T3

I am basically town in all three games.
Lady Chloe, Almost50, and CheekyTeeky, if any of them are scum frankly I'll just let them win the game because they're the players who'd have earned it via just being town.
RCEnigma is proven town in game 1 and is almost certainly town in game 2 as well.

So that leaves for scum candidates in both games:
Radical Rat
Amy Dunne
Dwlee99 (probably town in game 1 but confscum in game 2)
Dunnstral
House
T3

6 names for 3 scum in both games.

In game 2, from CheekyTeeky, we know there is an alignment change between House and me, me and CheekyTeeky, and a third at some point which makes Dwlee scum at the end.

The fourth can

only

be the Demon Lord, because there's no combination which can generate 4 changes otherwise.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-5>

Dwlee

is a change too many.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-3>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

House<1>

mastina

<2>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-3>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is impossible because Dwlee has admitted that they're scum.

The

only

possibility is the Demon Lord counting as a change;
House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-4>

Dwlee

is possible, but it means there's two scum off the wagon.
If we take {A50, Lady Chloe, RCE} to be town, and IF we take the above combo to be the correct one, that means the 2/3 possible scum off the wagon are PRECISELY:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral}.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-0 change>T3<hypo-4>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum.

It would also mean that 1/2 of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} would be scum and the other would be town.

House<2>

mastina

<3>

CheekyTeeky

<hypo-4>T3<hypo-0 change>RR<hypo-0 change>

Dwlee

is possible, and means that Radical Rat would be scum,

in addition to

T3

also

being scum.

This is the only scenario in which both of {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral} are town.

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #2, Radical Rat should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 100% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

For Game #1, it's unfortunately more difficult to solve. It's

probably

not Dwlee.
I doubt that Radical Rat is scum in all three games, so if he's scum in game #2 (which is highly likely as the only way he's not scum in game 2 is if both Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are scum and I doubt that), he's probably also town in game #1 like Dwlee.

Which leaves the

probable

scum in game #1 as:
{Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House, T3}.

T3 is probably scum in 1/2 games.

If Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both town in game #2, then T3 would probably be town in game #1 by virtue of being scum in game #2.
But if only 1/2 of Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are town in game #2, then T3 would probably be scum in game #1 by virtue of being town in game #2.

In other words, T3 is town in either game 1 or game 2, Amy Dunne and Dunnstral must have one game they are town in and one

Not deleting the above but striking it as I realized that while RR is probably not scum in all 3 games, there is a reasonable chance

T3

could in fact be scum in all 3 games, so the above thought process I abandoned once I realized it.

Still, though, regardless of T3 being scum in one game or both games, that means that there's a minimum of 2 scum in {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, House} in game 1.

Which means that:

@AMY DUNNE:

@DUNNSTRAL:

From your perspectives, in game #1, the other of you should be literally confirmed scum to you. As in, 99*% cannot be town by mechanics if you yourself are town.

*The 1% is RR being scum in all three games.

You know what that also means?

Unless the scumteam for game #1 is precisely {Amy Dunne, Dunnstral, T3} (or RR is scum in all 3 games, I guess, but again, that isn't very likely imo), House would be scum in game #1.

(I should add: it's technically possible for House to be scum in game #2 as there's no distinguishing between town and scum for him, but House is probably not scum in all three games the same way RR probably isn't, and the math for RR being basically confscum to Amy Dunne/Dunnstral remains true.)

Gonna quote the actual solvey part for people so it's more visible to folks.

[mastina]

@Alyssa the Lamb:

Phone kept crashing when I tried to add text to the above, but 2057 has basically most of the important info. Might need a slight update for the more recent flips, but is 95% accurate.

[mastina]

@Alyssa the Lamb:

Phone kept crashing when I tried to add text to the above, but 2057 has basically most of the important info. Might need a slight update for the more recent flips, but is 95% accurate.

Err, 2061*

[mastina]

Let's go along this track first: Why was MegAzumarill killed day one?

Well basically, I had a "Meg is not town in all three games" read:

Spoiler: Preamble to the Meg elimination, aka, mastina's gamelong scumread

VOTE: MegAzumarill
HURT: Ircher
I have more fosses than these two, but, phoneposting.
There's zero way that these two are town in all three games so eliminating one of them is guaranteed to advance the town wincon in at least one game.

Hello

This is scum in at least 1/3 games and might even be 2/3--was my vote for a damn good reason. This is also NOT MegAzumarill as town here.

I have other scumreads that are stronger (Ircher, MegAzumarill, and RCEnigma are all on the top of that list)

Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky

Dunnstral
Amy Dunne
Radical Rat
House

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

Approximately.

(I should mention that I legit think that Ircher, RCE, and Meg have a very high chance of actually being scum in

multiple

games. Probably 2/3 but I legit think that they're scum in

at least

one game.)

So like:
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3
House*

CheekyTeeky

Dunnstral
Radical Rat
House*

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

There's a

damn

good reason that my vote pool is {RCE, Ircher, MegAzumarill} and that's because I legit think that those three are all scum in

at least

one game, and that of the players in the game, they are the ones with the highest chances of actually being scum in

more

than one game.

I am less concerned about your read on me and more concerned about your read on Meg who had only one post when you posted that. I find it hard to believe that one post would be so indicative of scum. @mastina

From MegAzumarill and especially given the setup?

It was.

Plus, Meg has since posted more than once, and Meg's posts since the first post have only strengthened my "scum in at least one game if not multiple" read there.

Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3
House*

CheekyTeeky
Radical Rat

Dunnstral
House*

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky
Radical Rat

Dunnstral

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

Radical Rat

Dunnstral
CheekyTeeky

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

{Ircher, RCE, Meg} are all scum in

at least

one scumgame, maybe two.)

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky

Radical Rat

Dunnstral

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

House
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky

Radical Rat

Dunnstral

Amy Dunne

Ircher
RCEnigma
MegAzumarill

Ircher, RCE, and Meg are all scum in at least one game with the very very real chance of being scum in 2/3 games.

I genuinely don't think I'm off the mark on any of these. I think that I legit, deadass, nailed the distribution exactly. I just. Feel VERY confident in these.

Then, Meg flipped scum in game #3, and after that, made a post.

And it was for that, that post, which got the scumread really going. Basically, for this in game 2:

Now that I am dead in game C i will claim in the other two
I am a

Bulletproof Multitasking Compulsive Combined Vigilante-Voyuerizer Jailkeeper Jester

In Game B

In game A I am a

Town Simple Roleblocker.

I am 100% serious.

It produced immediate doubt, for good reason;

Is That 3p in the theme? It doesn't really look like a theme flavored role.

VOTE: Mega
Unless mega is a game ending jester I think they're just optimal lim in game two? Although, eliminating the roleblocker from A would suck

Why exactly did Meg claim in games A and B?

Idk I think they're scum though

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

Now that I am dead in game C i will claim in the other two
I am a

Bulletproof Multitasking Compulsive Combined Vigilante-Voyuerizer Jailkeeper Jester

In Game B

In game A I am a

Town Simple Roleblocker.

I am 100% serious.

That's a bad move. Why out your role in game 1? And why claim Jester on D1 in game 2? We obviously can't lim you in one of these 2 games without eliminating you in the other!!

I’m not sure I believe any of Meg’s claims.

I still buy Meg as scum in game 1 or 2

VOTE: meg
I don't know whether my vote got reset because I voted Dunn.

VOTE: meg

That is not the way to start

Meg why haven’t you been doing any solving like you did in ELSM’s games A and C?

No actually I rescind Dwlee being scummier in B but think Dwlee more likely in A.

How do you distinguish that at this point? In game 3 I get it because game was underway but I’m just basing my reads rn just based off of play in general.

Because MegA fake claimed town PR in game A rather than B where they claimed 3p jester so I think if MegA is in fact scum in B it makes it unlikely they are scum together since Dwlee believed the claim. And the TPR in Game A would be more threatening to scum than the 3p in game B. It makes sense in my head and I feel 50-50 in this translating into something logical in the thread.

I think Meg's overcomplicated Jester claim is serious. The theme is literally about hypercomplex bureaucracy, so tacking a billion modifiers on a weird hybrid 3P role feels like it fits right in.
For the Simple Roleblocker claim, I'm not really sure if it's serious, but it's an odd D1 claim regardless. Definitely Anti-Town to claim so early, at the very least.

For these reasons, and with the hope that Jester doesn't end the game, I'm most comfortable doing this
VOTE: MegAzumarill

I explained why I thought 496 was a scumclaim over these posts:

Spoiler: My case on Meg-scum game 2

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too.

I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

Now that I am dead in game C i will claim in the other two
I am a

Bulletproof Multitasking Compulsive Combined Vigilante-Voyuerizer Jailkeeper Jester

In Game B

In game A I am a

Town Simple Roleblocker.

I am 100% serious.

The bp claim is here.
I don't believe it, because *I* am bp in game two/B.

um.
t h
meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far.

I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.

Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in Game two.

I still don’t understand her Ircher read but I am notoriously bad at reading him.

I however am VERY good at reading Ircher and guarantee he's scum in AT LEAST one game, if not two.

Almost certainly with MegAzumarill in at least one game, too.

(So, I suppose my "Ircher is the last scum" in game 4 read has a caveat--there's a chance he's not scum there, but he's scum with MegAzumarill in

some

game, probably the second, almost for sure.)

Mastina why do you hate me so?

I don't hate you!

It's just that I'm not scum in any of the games, you're proven scum in the third, and I think you're scum in the second, too!

Why is House 100% town in both of the other games and not rr?

Flipping scum in one game does not a clear make. You may note I'm still hella suspicious of MegAzumarill in spite of the scum flip in game three and have RR as null in spite of the scum flip in game three and House as town due to the scum flip in game three.

And the reason for that is quite simple. Three different reads from three different scumflips in game three is due to what the players have posted and who the players are.

MegAzumarill's play in this game is pretty damn obviously "town in 1/3 games, scum in the other two". Okay, so I suppose it's

possible

for Meg to be town in 2/3 games, but Meg's play doesn't support that at all. I don't think Meg actually got 3/3 scum role PMs, but everything in Meg's play, start to finish, screams, "scum in more than one game". At every single stage, I've seen content that has made it look like Meg hasn't been town in more than one game at most, and overall it just strongly seems like Meg doesn't know how to play as town in one game (probably game one) and scum in the other two.

Which puts my readslist as:
House
RCEnigma*
Almost50
Lady Chloe

Dwlee99
T3

CheekyTeeky

Radical Rat

Dunnstral

Amy Dunne

Ircher
MegAzumarill

*entirely trusting T3's read

At this stage I think that {Dunnstral, Amy Dunne, Ircher, MegAzumarill} legitimately has a very high chance of containing all the scum in all the games.

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in.

I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

.
There's multiple reasons for this.
I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but.
I don't think it was actually meant as a joke.

I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.
I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

But more than that.

I don't think that a town-Meg in game two actually makes the joke in the first place.
At least not with being serious in game #1.

If Meg were joking in

both

games, I could see it as

maybe

not indicative of game alignment (altho I feel the need to emphasize that I don't think Meg would joke), but the claim in game #1 looks to be dead serious and is actually a thing that I would fully expect to be a very real role Jingle would put into a Normal. So I frankly wouldn't believe that the roleclaim in game#1 is a joke.

So if the roleclaim in game #1 isn't a joke, why would the claim in the second game be a joke?

I genuinely think that the claim came from a position of both scum information, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Also, "Simple Roleblocker" is a dumb role if you think about

Well it can't block VTs or Goons but it can still block scum PRs. That's precisely the type of role that I think Jingle puts in a Normal and the precise "Yeah this is a Jingle role" to the claim in game #1 is why I think that MegAzumarill's claim in game #2 was not in fact the joke people assume it to be.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Mastina I'd love you to explain what made you Sr me in game B

Well basically your play screams scum in 2/3 games through and through and has since the beginning and still does.

And your way of handling game B makes it very strongly look like scum in game #2.

Also if you think there's some truth to my claims why would you try to lim a PR.

It's a bit unfortunate, but if the cost of a dead scum D1 in game #2 is the loss of a very weak situational PR in game #1, I'll take the trade. Ideally you don't want to sacrifice one towngame for the sake of another towngame, but on D1, we're probably going to

have

to--unless there's a player scum in both games 1 AND 2 (which is doubtful), we can't eliminate scum in one without eliminating town in another.

It'll obviously be different on D2 onward, but as far as I can tell, there's no way with the vote thresholds identical to eliminate in game one without eliminating in game two and vice versa. So we will ALWAYS lose a town in ONE game in order to kill a scum the other on D1.

Eliminating scum D1 in a mini theme usually beats eliminating scum D1 in a mini Normal to me, so...

VOTE: Ircher
VOTE: MegAzumarill
(tempted to leave the Ircher vote on all three honestly)

My vote's going to either be on MegAzumarill or Ircher--those are the only acceptable votes imo.

Also I'd it wasn't obvious I'm not seriously claiming in either remaining game

I'm dead serious.

MegAzumarill is scum in game #2.
Ircher is scum with MegAzumarill in game #2 and might be scum in game #1.

Given that, though, I'm actually going to:
VOTE: Ircher

Chance to kill scum in 2/2 games > basically guaranteed 1/2.

We should 100% be eliminating one of MegAzumarill or Ircher for the remaining games as they're basically guaranteed scum here.

I'd love mastina to explain it and why specifically in game B

Because you're not playing as scum in 3/3 games but are playing as scum in 2/3 and your play matches scum in game #2 better than it does in game #1.

Is anyone going to point out I am being voted out by the demon lord

I saw it--I don't care.

The demon lord did not surprise!-lolhammer you.

As that's the optimal play for an obviously scum role, that means any other usage of it is suboptimal.

In fact, the usage of it on you is actually damning for you.

If the scum wanted to use the Demon Lord to kill a town player, they should've waited until a town player was at L-1 and used the demon lord then.

Using it before a player is at L-1 thus means that scum are instead opting to let the town know about it--and by having it vote you, that's wifom to dissuade people from voting you.

In other words: the vote on you from the demon lord is actually proof that you're scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Plus, you fucking KNOW my meta.

You fucking KNOW I wouldn't counterclaim a role as scum;

You fucking KNOW I WOULD counterclaim a role as town seeing it and rushing to do so--because I've done so before.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless.

You're also assuming that the vote comes from scum.

An unannounced unclaimed vote on the lead wagon?

Seems a fairly safe bet to me!

Scum might vote themselves to "clear" themselves, or maybe they would in fact use it on a townie.

If they were going to use it on a townie, they'd use it as a hammer.

From experience, I know that when scum have an extra vote and

don't

use it as a hammer, they almost ALWAYS use it to vote themselves to try and make themselves look more town.

Speaking of which:
VOTE: MegAzumarill
Back to voting here.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

You said it yourself: just because you flip town in one game has very little bearing on your alignment in the other games.

That's basically the opposite of what I've been saying?

Players' play in all games is influenced by their alignment in all of the games.

Someone flipping scum in one game can, situationally: clear them in the remaining games (House, T3), or have no bearing on their alignment in the other games (RR, MegAzumarill).

Players' play in games is a reflection of their alignment in

all

of the games.

mastina thats still not a reason to why I'm scum.

It isn't slam-dunk in of itself but piled onto this

still

not being your town meta, combined with everything else, it's a fairly safe bet!

You are NOT playing to your town meta--even after having flipped scum in game three.

Therefore, you are scum in at least 1/2 of the remaining games.

You made a joke claim that was not a joke specifically for game #2 (compared to the far more plausible role from game #1).

You have a scum vote on you when the optimal usage of a scum vote is to hammer a townie and using it before a hammer is almost always meant as "scum are voting this person, we should not vote them" when said person is usually just scum, using the vote to try and dissuade a wagon on them.

Ircher has basically been hard-defending you from the onset from my accusation in spite of the accusation already having proven to be correct in game 3 and continues to do so even now.

It adds up.

mastina is demon lord
Likely personal

Proven false by voting timings btw. You can look at the VCs and see that my vote was on MegAzumarill way way way WAY before the Demon Lord vote appeared--and in fact, the Demon Lord vote appeared during a time I was offline pretty sure. (I'd need to doublecheck that.)

Why is mastina assuming that it is a scum ability?

Why don't you try reading my posts to find out? I already explained why, so if you're not being a lazy bum and actually read my posts you'd be able to find out precisely why I am assuming it is. (I'd link it to you right now, but no--I'm a vindicative bitch. It's there. And if you didn't know it was there, that's proof you haven't read my posts. So I'm not going to give you the precise post so you're forced to read all of mine to find out.)

Jokes are so suspicious these days. *Looks at MegA*

From some players and on some things, unironically yes.

MegAzumarill is not the type of person to make that joke as town and even if Meg was, then the TYPE of joke and the content of it makes it come from scum.

OK.. now, please give me a summary (and I emphasize on the word

summary

) of why Meg and/or Ircher are scum in either game. NO WALLPOSTING FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IN. Just a short paragraph on each.

Meg is scum because this isn't Meg's towngame and the Demon Lord vote on Meg is scum voting scum; read my bloody posts to find out why;
Ircher is scum because Ircher has been defending Meg from the getgo--from my very first suspicion on Meg, Ircher has come to Meg's defense. Also, this isn't Ircher's towngame.

What does this even mean?? How does scum play change between the two games when we don't even know what the exact setup on either is??

You said not to answer it but I will answer it partially anyway.

Players can still show differences in the different games by their overall vibes and treatment and what they are pushing/doing in which games. In the case of MegAzumarill, it manifested in the "joke" claim post most strongly. All of Meg's posts say "scum in one game, town in another", but the joke post served as a distinguishing factor solving for which was which. Add in the Demon Lord vote being scum voting Meg to try and dissuade us from wagoning Meg and you get even more.

I went into even further detail on my Meg read post-flip, after I trueclaimed. (Too lazy to trim this down to just the Meg sections but look in here.)

Spoiler: I REALLY didn't want to spoiler this because I REALLY wanted y'all to read it all but I ended up quoting enough that I think I need it, sadly

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

"basically the same", but not THE same. Because game #2 I am a survivor, that needs scum dead in a way that makes it basically a Town Survivor, just...not technically town.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all.

Notice that in response to Almost50, I didn't say "I'm town in all 3 games"; I said "I'm not scum at all". Because I

couldn't

say I was town in all 3 games because technically speaking I'm not even though the type of nontown I am is basically town anyway.

I said I wasn't scum at all because I'm in fact, not scum in any game.

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

Once more, though, you may note the usage: "prove that I am not scum", rather than 'prove that I am town'.
Because, if it was necessary, I wanted to leave it open for the chance for me to claim 3p if need be, if either of the two claim-conditions happened to come true (which the second one did).

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

I didn't say that *I* was town here, I just said that I wanted a triple town win from killing all the scum in all the games. Which is true; I want all the scum dead in all the games and that should generate a triple town win since I can in fact win with the town in spite of technically not being town due to basically still being town.

And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I don't have any scumgames here, but I didn't say "I have 3 towngames". (Since again, technically not a towngame even tho it pragmatically speaking is one.)

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too. I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts. One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot. Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it. Phoneposting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what role loses value when claimed? Bulletproof!
The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can explain better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty ass glitchy phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far. I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.
Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in game two.
Suffice to say, you can fuck off if you think that I am scum in any of the games.
I'm not.

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in. I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

. There's multiple reasons for this. I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but. I don't think it was actually meant as a joke. I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.

I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

I genuinely think that the claim

came from a position of both scum information

, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Here, it takes some explaining, but: basically, I saw MegAzumarill claim a third party and claim bulletproof and my thought instantly jumped to, "MegAzumarill is scum in game #2 who has TMI" and was thus not joking.

I was in fact planning to draw nightkills in game #2 (again, being bulletproof and being basically a town survivor that needs scum dead, drawing scum kills to me is a GOOD thing because they couldn't kill me and it'd put the town in a better position). However, I saw MegAzumarill's claim as hard proof that Meg was informed scum in game #2.

You may notice again: "I'm not scum in any of the games". I'm in fact not scum in any of the games! But I didn't say town in all of them because while I might be basically-town in game #2 I am technically not town.

There was in fact depth to my reads tho because I was dead serious in all of them. I, again, was attempting to get

nightkilled

in game #2. As a bulletproof, who needs scum dead in order to win, I needed to be playing as if I was town and furthering the town wincon. Meaning that I needed to be as town as I've ever been before, townier than that in fact.

I do think that Ircher also TMI'd tho--Ircher said, "mastina is town in precisely 2/3 of the games". That was in fact right. But why those words instead of "mastina is scum in 1/3 of the games"? It feels like Ircher was saying exactly what he meant to say because he knew it'd be exactly the truth. He can point to 418 and say he was 100% correct--but him being 100% correct is actually

the problem

. He

shouldn't

have had any inkling of me being non-town-but-not-scum in game #2. Because again, I was powertowning, more than I've ever towned before.

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

This is me explaining the townslip (well, slip of not being scum) further, but note again that I used 'not scum in any game', because I am in fact: not scum in any game!

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Again, I thought that Meg was TMI'ing in game #2 with the claim and was trying to bait me out.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Here I again explain why I thought that Meg TMI'd as being scum in game #2.

Beyond that, I laid out a modified version of my trueclaim.

I am not actually a miller, obviously.
But what I said there remains true:
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does).

All of those remain true because they are all actually true--I'm still basically town here. I show as the town result to almost every investigation, I'm not groupscum, I require scum to be dead in order to win, for all intents and purposes, I'm basically just town. Just, technically am not town due to technically not being town.

DID I NOT FUCKING HARD TOWNSLIP BY NOT BEING AWARE OF THE FUCKING NATURE OF THE SCUM/MASONS IN GAME THREE.
DID I NOT FUCKING TELL YOU YOU FUCKERS COULD FUCK OFF IF YOU THOUGHT I WAS SCUM BECAUSE I NEVER FUCKING AM.

So fuck off with accusations of me being scum EVER again and hammering me when I'm fucking sleeping.

I again say "never am scum" here, because I'm not, but don't say 'always town', because that'd have been a lie.

I did fuck up in 1030 in saying 'town in all 3' tho.
I genuinely

meant

to say 'not scum', probably was too angry to notice the slip-up in breadcrumbing so I apologize for that.

I agree with ircher bigly

Fuck off, Dwlee.

I'm ticked enough that I got eliminated in ONE game.

I'm not going down when I have been putting in more effort than ever before in all three games.

Not a breadcrumb per se but this shows my mindset here:

I am not power-efforting scum; I am in fact, basically town in all three games (even though I am technically not town).

And there is some survivalism involved--because, natch, am a Survivor.

Mastina, town won because of T3's misfire.

Yes but I didn't know that when I was posting. I do now. But I didn't.

And just because they won doesn't mean I cannot be fucking pissed that you fucking mislimmed me while I was sleeping that game--it is a show of a (lack of) integrity.

Also need I remind you that I am at, what, L-2 now in both remaining games?

From "mastina is scum in 1/3 games" 'logic' that nobody backs up because there isn't any fucking logic had in a bullshit statement like that which goes contrary to everything?

I still have a right to be fucking furious here and I am enacting that right until the only votes on me are from scum.

This remains true but was another further hint at my role, in case I needed to claim it. (Which, thanks to the result, I do.)

Love getting cursed at for... winning

I have the right to curse at you for fucking voting me out both in game three and AFTER SEEING THAT I WAS TOWN THERE then deciding to vote me in BOTH THE REMAINING GAMES.

In spite of, yaknow.

Maybe.

Just maybe.

My play in game #3 showing proof that I'm not playing towards scum in any of the games?

I've been solving

all three

games from the

onset

. I've not been solving one game; I've been solving ALL of them. My reads are cross-game applying to ALL of them. So if you see me fucking flip town in game 3 after being fucking wrong there and then go on to proceed to VOTE ME IN BOTH REMAINING GAMES, I do in fact get to say:

Fuck. off.

Here I again say "not scum" (because I'm not) rather than "town" (because I'm technically not).

You're town in precisely two because you are doing your standard wallposts, but at the same time, I can see you are pushing an agenda.

The agenda was attempting to get fucking nightkilled in game #2 by being fucking bulletproof and knowing that, via being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't truly die in either of the other two. As in, due to being bulletproof in game #2, I couldn't have my voice removed in game #1.

The

only

way to get rid of me would be via town idiocy in fucking eliminating a fucking BULLETPROOF. (That or a scum strongman but like--forcing scum to use the strongman > doing the fucking scum's work for them.)

The question is which game of 1/2 you are town in and which one you are scum in.

I'm not scum in ANY of the games because I fucking hard-townslipped in a way that I was fucking incapable of doing if I were scum.

I lean towards you being scum in game 2 based on how you felt compelled to counterclaim a joke claim.

That was not a joke claim from Meg, and I've explained why it was not a joke claim.

Even if you believe this, it is still pretty poor form to immediately jump to counterclaim. You could have waited until you knew all the facts; it wasn't like you were in danger or anything.

This critique is proof that Ircher does not believe I am actually scum.

A claim as outrageous as the one Meg made doesn't require an explicit "it's a joke". I understand that reading jokes isn't your forte; it isn't mine either, but you really can't be using this as the primary basis for your read on Meg. (Also, in before you use this to reinforce your associative read on us.)

I'm not.

The claim isn't a joke not because it was serious.

It's not a joke because it was still

tactical

. It wasn't made without rhyme or reason. It was

deliberate

. It wasn't whimsy, it wasn't something done spontaneously. It was done

strategically

.

And THAT is why it is scum.

First, you are assuming scum are playing optimally.

Yeah and if I was scum in game #2 no fucking shit I'd use the role optimally.

And using the role to vote a player and give away the scum extra vote without hammering is using it suboptimally--it means that every town player should treat L-2 as if it were L-1 and thus force extra caution, meaning the scum vote is basically worthless

Here you get more hints. I again emphasize "not scum in any game", rather than "town in all 3 games", and I again point out Ircher's TMI and why I thought Meg had TMI. (I was wrong on Meg having TMI but I believe I am right on Ircher having had TMI in his read on me--he had me as 'not town', but his posts didn't indicate he thought I was scum, thus, he correctly identified me as 3p when he should not have been able to as town.)

I'll say that the agenda remains true; my agenda is to survive game #2 and kill all the scum because I can't win with them pretty much.

And I have been playing to my fucking town meta in ALL of them because guess what? Not scum in any of them.

That I wasn't playing with an agenda was already proven in game #3.

It would also be proven if I was fucking mislimmed in both games 1 and 2 because I am not fucking scum in all three and transparently so.

This remains true; I am not scum in any of the games and transparently so.

I am playing to my town meta in all three games, because while I'm technically not town in all 3, I'm

basically

town in all three.

I will say that I very strongly believed Meg to be scum TMI'ing in game #2 and wanted to eliminate Meg to basically hard-clear myself. If Meg flipped scum in game #2, then it'd clear me from being scum, meaning that people couldn't pull the bullshit "mastina is lying about being 3p" because I bloody killed scum.

Which, by the way, I can still do in the form of Dwlee and probably Ircher.

It's a bit of a cheap strategy, I admit, but I am NOT letting myself be mislimmed, so literally any (technically legal) trick I can use, I will.

The motivation for this should be obvious:

As a survivor, I need to survive.
As not scum, I have an easy way to mostly prove I am not scum.
As such, I resorted to this in order to avoid my elimination.

(And yes, I did feel the need to resort to this. I am not being eliminated as a fucking bulletproof again. It's happened before and I am determined to make it never happen again. I could have obviously cleared myself if Meg flipped scum, but since Meg did not, I need to find and eliminate an actual scum in order to actually clear myself.)

Here I laid out my strategy and basically said: "I'm not dieing as third party again". (As a reminder, last time I claimed 3p I got modkilled but I know Jingle's a lot more laxed on rules than unwnd so the fear is more from the town than the wrath of mod.) I laid out my plan, my strategy, to clear myself of being scum by having eliminated scum. It'd not eliminate paranoia of me being malevolent 3p but it'd guarantee that people would see me as not-groupscum at the very least.

Mastina you're angleshooting very hard and I think it is in poor taste regardless of your alignment here

Poor taste? Sure! But it's not against the rules.
And playing to my wincon > having good taste.

As long as its not a violation of site rules, I'm obligated to try and do everything to win. And angleshooting to conftown myself is doing precisely that.

Being mislimmed as a BP is the only losecon I can see, so avoiding it at all costs is playing to win.

Here I basically was claiming my real role anyway. I am obligated to do everything to win--as a Survivor, that means being confirmed as not groupscum is playing to my wincon. Being eliminated (which, to be clear, is still a mislim because

I am not scum

, I'm basically town even if I'm technically not because I require scum to be dead in order to win meaning that I am playing to the town wincon and thus, eliminating me IS a mislim!) obviously causes a Survivor to lose, so...

I SHOULD be obvtown by play.
I CAN'T pull this shit off as scum.
I DID hard townslip.
But in spite of this being THE TOWNIEST I'VE EVER BEEN, I'm STILL at risk of being mislimmed as a fucking bulletproof, who scum CAN'T kill, barring them burning a strongman.
So damn right I'm going to use EVERY tool in my arsenal to avert that.

More laying out that I am not scum and am playing to the town wincon.

Vote Count Mini Theme.1.01

MegAzumarill (E-0):

Demon Lord

, House, mastina, CheekyTeeky, T3, Radical Rat, Dwlee99

So I'm a wagon analyzer (what I've called it) and my result was that the wagon had 4 alignment differences between voters on MegA. I'm just trying to confirm if it includes demon lord, but that's a pretty colourful wagon ^.^

I'm too tired to do proper analysis here but I think that this conftowns House, barring a town Demon Lord claim. (Since a Demon Lord won't claim tho, House should be conftown from it.)

From there, the options for the remaining three are:
-House->me->Cheeky (2/3) (would require me to not be town tho obv and still would leave a final alignment change--for instance, if the change was at RR then RR and Dwlee would both be scum; if the change was at Dwlee then Dwlee would be scum)
-me->Cheeky->T3 (2/3) (would require Cheeky to not be town tho in spite of this being Cheeky giving the result--seems kinda ridiculous)
-Cheeky->T3->RR->Dwlee (3/3) (would mean T3 and Dwlee are scum I think?)

I might not be thinking of all the possibilities but my townreads on T3/Dwlee do not override the chance of there being scum there.

I'm pretty sure that if you assume Cheeky is town here, then the only possible nontown are {mastina, T3, Dwlee} here?

Again, might be not thinking, should be more lucid to give it a better thought runthrough.

But I think that regardless, Dwlee might be confscum here?
VOTE: Dwlee99
Not sure, feel free to correct me, am tired, not thinking at full capacity, but I think that it has to fit regardless of your thoughts elsewhere.

So T3 or RR likely middle scum. House could be scum and Dwlee definitely scum.

I might be overlooking in my tiredness the RR scum world, I can't figure the math out there right now but that's probably where I am flawed in thinking.

At this point, I was already committing to claiming my status as third party, I just wanted Dwlee as scum dead first because if Dwlee died and flipped scum, that'd be the time for me to out myself.

But with Dwlee admitting they're scum, that moved up the timetable from "after the D2 elimination on Dwlee" to right now.

And to be clear, I do in fact know that Dwlee

must

be confscum. Even if they didn't confess, by knowing I'm 2/4 of the alignment changes, and with the Demon Lord as a third, that meant that the fourth must mean Dwlee was scum.

With the demon lord voting MegAzumarill, the plan was to eliminate Meg in game two, but

not

game one.

Ircher fucked that up tho.

[mastina]

Why did you give me mostly information about Game B when we are in presumably ELo in Game A?

The games are intricately linked together. We have no information from game #1 aside from Ircher, as town, hammered Meg there unnecessarily (which, with him being town, was a fuckup because Meg should NOT have been hammered in game 1).

Beyond that, the only info we have?

RCEnigma died N1, for ??? reasons.

Amy Dunne, in spite of her strongest scumread being House (proven town by D3), was killed N2 in spite of my scumread there, for ??? reasons.

And now, I was killed. This one, not quite as ???; I have my thoughts as to why.

But we literally have nothing specific to game #1--not from PRs, not from flips, not from votes.

All we have is the intricate link between the games. We can look at disparities in play/focus between games; we can look at players showing signs of being two different alignments in two different games; we can look at players and see that they are town in all three or scum in all three. Game 2 is directly tied to game 1 in that information from game 2 is not irrelevant to game 1. The two games are directly influenced by one another.

The game info from game 2 is thus pertinent to game 1. And we have a

lot

more info about game 2 than game 1. So we can extrapolate data from game 1 to apply the conclusions from it to game 1.

[mastina]

What are your current reads regarding both games individually?

Well in game 2:

If T3 is scum, Radical Rat is scum, too--a T3 scumflip would give us all three scum in game 2. However, a T3 townflip would take us dangerously close to mylo. (By my count, we have 9 alive right now. Once night ends, it'll presumably go down to 8. Since mylo is 6, if T3 flipped town...)

If Radical Rat is town, then T3 must be town--a Radical Rat townflip would conftown T3. However, the cost of this clear would be placing us in mylo.

If Radical Rat is scum, then T3 could be either town or scum--but we go into 6 players with only 1 scum left, which is pretty good.

If Radical Rat is town, then the scumteam

should

be {Dunnstral, Amy Dunne} in game 2--I don't think that House can be scum with Dunnstral via the wagon analyzer result (The Demon Lord

must

count for the purposes of that result, and while Dunnstral says it doesn't have an alignment, we have only his word of that. If Dunnstral is scum, his claim is most likely to prevent himself from being confscum'd from the wagon analyzer, which would indicate House as town), and Amy Dunne's play indicates she's not scum with House.

Meaning that if Radical Rat flips town, then the only possible scum are Dunnstral and Amy Dunne to me.

If Radical Rat flips scum, then the last scum could be any of {T3, House, Dunnstral, Amy Dunne}.

So I think that the optimal elimination in game #2 is Radical Rat, to give us the most info.

When it comes to game #1:
I think that Almost50/Titus is town in all games. A50 was town by play and Titus is also town by play.
I think that CheekyTeeky is town in all games. Her play is basically identical in game 2 and 1.
I think that Lady Chloe is town in all games, since Taly's play here is clearly gamesolvey in a way I just don't think is Taly as scum.

That leaves only four possibilities:
{Dwlee99, T3, Radical Rat, Dunnstral}.
Dwlee claimed town in game 1 and scum in game 2. I believe this claim to have a fairly high chance of being correct.

T3 has a very high chance of being scum in all three games or at least scum in 2/3 games.

Radical Rat has a decent chance of being scum in all three games or at least scum in 2/3 games--I specifically feel that Radical Rat is scum for sure in game #1 due to RR's push on me.

[mastina]

Forgot to mention this but yes we need to massclaim in the Normal game/game 1/game A.

As a NRG member, I will be fairly able to give good feedback on the claims and figure out which are likely real and which are likely fake so you shouldn't vote until I've given input.

Ircher via the neighborhood in game 2 where he can apparently talk still can and should do similar, checking my work and me checking his.

[mastina]

Forgot to mention this but yes we need to massclaim in the Normal game/game 1/game A.

As a NRG member, I will be fairly able to give good feedback on the claims and figure out which are likely real and which are likely fake so you shouldn't vote until I've given input.

Ircher via the neighborhood in game 2 where he can apparently talk still can and should do similar, checking my work and me checking his.

Apparently, I wasn't clear enough when I made this post.

When I said massclaim in the Normal/G1/A, what I meant was:

Every player alive in the mini normal should claim in their next post.

Thus far, only Dwlee and T3 have, leaving 5/7 unclaimed.

We're not waiting for a structured order or even popcorning.
You're here and alive? You claim. Period.

[mastina]

tbh I believe the rolecop finder claim

I have thoughts to share, but they require that the other 5 living players claim.

[mastina]

To be clear, that means, yes, I expect you to claim, Lady Chloe and Titus. Same for Cheeky if she's here. RR and Dunnstral need to claim, too.

[mastina]

To be clear, that means, yes, I expect you to claim, Lady Chloe and Titus. Same for Cheeky if she's here. RR and Dunnstral need to claim, too.

So uh.

I said this over 24 hours ago.

My demand for a massclaim is even older, going back to ~48 hours ago.

Neither Cheeky nor Dunn have been here since, and while I am phoneposting and thus cannot verify their whereabouts activity wise, I'm starting to get a little towards their suspiciously long absence.

It looks an awful lot like scum trying to figure out if they should claim PR or VT, and if PR, what to do to avoid me knowing that they're bullshitting.

[mastina]

I want to take a reasonless strawpoll on eliminating Amy versus Dunn versus Rat (included by theoretical only) in the theme game. There must be at least one scum between them as I doubt RR fakes as town here.

Honestly, I was wanting to eliminate Dunn in the Theme today anyway, since there is a high chance that he's scum, and I don't want a scum doublevoter alive in Xylo. It'd turn lylo into an instant scum win, and Mylo into lylo.

The only other option to me was RR, and I actually agree with what RR said, gimme a moment to quote it and elaborate.

[mastina]

Because there's only one alignment change after Cheeky on Meg's wagon, which is the one between myself and Dwlee. T3 is before me, so in order for him to be scum, I must be as well, or there'd be another change. Since I know my own alignment, I know T3 must be Town as well. If you doubt my alignment, just wait for scum to nightkill me. Or they can put it off to make me look bad, in which case I'll just get more results to share, so. Their move.

RR is correct here.

I have concerns about his claim, and he very well could've been my vote today without this claim. It seems tailor made to be the perfect self defense.

It doesn't even tell us something that we didn't already know. We already knew that there was 1 scum in Amy/Dunn regardless, from Cheekys result and poe. RR makes it more official, but is still not doing much.

That said?

He's still living through this day phase at minimum, since either scum NEED to kill him to avoid deadly poe, or he continues to generate more results, potentially including some which gives actually new info to us.

So he's right; he's the Scum's problem, not ours.

[mastina]

I feel like to control for mastina, we need to get mastina on record as to who she thinks scum is in each pairing

Dunn > Amy;
RR ~= House > Alyssa.

If Dunn flips scum, then tomorrow we can safely afford a RR mislim.
(It also clears T3)
If Dunn flips town, we're in a much more difficult spot in sorting RR + T3/House vs. Amy + House, but we'll cross that bridge only if we come to it.

[mastina]

Also, not thrilled that suddenly both of you are suddenly forgetting about A. I’m not going to let scum skate to a win.

Who is scum in A? RR? Titus? T3?

I think Dunn most likely but since I’m dead, I can’t vote him.

This also did not escape my notice.

We need Dunn and CheekyTeeky to claim for me to share my thoughts, but that game IS my top priority. I have thoughts to share once massclaim is finished, but I can't share them prior to claims.

[mastina]

Yes. I do.

What those comments mean is that your vote only counts in Game B so it won't effect elo in A and Dunn is confscum to you. As long as we get 1 of House/Alyssa on we are good. They don't overlap with A either.

I don't, either, so:
VOTE: Dunnstral

[mastina]

Titus, do you have a failsafe if RR happens to be scum fake claiming?

I kinda sorta do.
RR can be scum in game 2 with any of Dunn/House/Amy, so eliminating Dunn still has a chance to hit scum if RR is scum. So if Dunn flips scum, we can eliminate RR tomorrow.

If Dunn flips town, we basically have almost a 2v2. (Not quite, as House-RR is still possible).

It'd be RR + T3/House vs Amy+House.

Given Amy's interactions with House, she's not scum with him, so Dunn town means that RR is scum since Amy doesn't have a possible realistic scumbuddy.

[mastina]

RR, what's your solve in A?

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky

Leaning towards the Dwlee side of things because T3's claim is just such a weird and specific one to fake. But I strongly townread both you and Chloe, so it has to be one of those teams.

Why do you TR me?

Inherited from A50 mostly, but you haven't done anything scummy since your replace in.

Why were you townreading A50?

Right from the start he was being active and working to solve all three games, easily carrying Game 3 in particular. He also went as far as to refrain from his usual monkey business in the interest of keeping a confusing setup from being even more confusing. Scum!A50 I'd imagine wouldn't have any qualms about creating additional confusion, and would just play as normal.

Oh also Ircher in the Game 2 hood brought up the point that Dwlee could have claimed prematurely in Game 2 so that they'd get a free townread in Game 1, which... Is exactly what happened.

I kinda like Dwlee's response to T3's claim. I have more experience with T3 lying than you do.

I could go for Dunn Cheeky though.

Comments on Amy/Dunn and Alyssa/House?

I haven't decided between Amy and Dunn yet. I think the flips/claims so far implicate Dunn more than Amy, but Amy's play here is concerning. IF it's Dunn though, I think House is his buddy, because otherwise there'd be no reason for him to have claimed Demon Lord.

I'm calling bullshit on you town reading A50 for solving all 3 games.

I was solving for all 3 games and you still pushed me as possible scum.

So tell me: what makes A50s solving of all 3 games be town when my solving for all 3games was not?

[mastina]

And yes, I was also very active, too. Active and from the very getgo, solving all 3 games.

What makes the trait both A50 and I displayed town for him, but not for me?

[mastina]

RR you literally argued that me being town in one game would allow me to be in my town meta in solving all 3 games. You said this multiple times in fact.

So why the clear on A50 for the very thing that you tried to go out of your way to say wasn't town for me?

[mastina]

Do we have any basis for Dunnstral's extra vote being unaligned other than him saying that he messaged the mod?

Because that is exactly the type of role I would expect scum to have to fuck with Cheeky's role

Nope! We have only his word, which actually kinda contradicts Cheekys. Which is among the reasons why I think that he's scum in G2/B.

[mastina]

Right so I can't explain until home from work, but basically, in game 1, T3 is confirmed as town with every player claiming VT.

More than that, it's highly likely that the scumteam has 2-3 rolecops, probably 2, and that T3's results are designed to function a lot like a cop but with the potential for them to have what amounts to a scum godfather in the bunch if it's only 2 scum rolecops.

I'll explain why when home.

[mastina]

Right so I can't explain until home from work, but basically, in game 1, T3 is confirmed as town with every player claiming VT.

More than that, it's highly likely that the scumteam has 2-3 rolecops, probably 2, and that T3's results are designed to function a lot like a cop but with the potential for them to have what amounts to a scum godfather in the bunch if it's only 2 scum rolecops.

I'll explain why when home.

Okay to explain this:

We have, precisely, three claimed roles in the Mini Normal, Game A/1:
MegAzumarill, the flipped town tracker;
RCEnigma/Alyssa the Lamb, the flipped town jailkeeper;
T3, a Rolecop-Finder.

T3's confirmed as town for multiple reasons.

For a start, Normals basically don't get by with less than three power roles--as-is, 2-3 mid-tier PRs is basically getting close to scumsided regardless of what the scum actually have. And that's precisely what we have, at best. Jingle kinda isn't the best at making sure games stay in the balanced range, but for a Normal, we require at least some standards.

So let me lay it out further, by breaking it down.

{Jailkeeper, Tracker, VTx5 vs. Goonx2} works as a micro (semi-)open setup balance-wise, but it

cannot

be scaled up to a Mini Normal size for a couple of crucial reasons.

The first is that adding an extra scum and adding three extra VTs doesn't maintain the balance ratio. You'd think that making lylo move back a day from D3 to D4, having an extra elimination, and more town voices, would be advantages to the town, but time and time again, it's been shown that in practice, no matter the theoretical math involved, things do not directly scale up that well. (You can see mountainous games as examples of this, where counterintuitively, the town's winrate can actually

drop

by adding extra VTs.) While the scum have more VTs to sort through in order to hit the PRs, the inverse is also true; the PRs have more VTs to sort through in order to get to the scum.

And the scum get a HUGE benefit from an extra scum voice. One extra informed minority means that the scum have a huge increase in their influence on the day phase and also in their strategizing in the scum PT. Three voices is better than two at catching errors, strategizing, setting up plans, figuring out the gamestate, hunting for PRs, etc.

The second reason is that setups that work as a(n) (semi-)open, don't directly translate to being balanced when run as a closed. The go-to example for this is masonx3 + VTx7 vs. Goonx3. This, as an open, is considered a balanced setup--but time and time again in the Normal queue, it has been shown to, as a Closed, end up scumsided. The lack of information on knowing what the setup actually is makes things much harder for the town (even the masons) and much much easier for the scum.

So for multiple reasons, the game

needs

a third town PR.

This even applies if the third scum were to be a traitor, too. While a traitor cannot communicate with the scumteam, they cannot be caught by associatives. {Tracker, JK} vs. {Goon, Goon, Traitor} might sound like it's closer to balanced from an omniscient viewpoint where you have full knowledge of what the setup is, but when you factor in that the players

don't

know the setup, it becomes ludicrously scumsided.

The only way the town has to know of the traitor is to actually flip the traitor. (A traitor's existence is not revealed by flipping groupscum in a Normal.) And if they flip the traitor, that means both groupscum remain alive--meaning that the tracker can't get innocents and has a harder time getting a guilty, and the jailkeeper can't tell if they have an innocent/guilty and has a difficult time generating either.

Sure, yes, if one of the two groupscum is eliminated, then the tracker becomes a cop and so does the jailkeeper...but only if the town knows about the traitor. Which, with one groupscum dead and the traitor alive? They don't.

In other words, a traitor does not actually nerf the scumteam:
For the town to elevate the tracker to a cop, they still need two scum dead; for the town to elevate the jailkeeper to a cop, they still need two scum dead.

So a traitor doesn't stop the game from being unacceptably ludicrously scumsided. Because the traitor can't be caught by the jailkeeper or tracker, and doesn't give associatives, and needs to die in order for the town PRs to know their value, and have a groupscum die for them to get maximum value. In other words, the traitor doesn't stop the scumsided nature of only two town PRs versus a scumteam. So a scumteam with three members on it will always be able to just run over a town with only two PRs.

That, aside from another reason I doubt a traitor would work as a fix: traitors in this game specifically just seem like a bad idea. When the whole idea of the game is that it's three games in one, a traitor kinda just...doesn't really work as well, do as much, etc.
Plus, as an aside: if the scumteam in game A/1 had a traitor, I'd think that the games wouldn't have remained synchronized for as long as they did. The synchronization of the games lasting as long as it did probably had groupscum backing and coordination.


So what does all that mean?

It means that T3, by necessity, for game balance,

must

be town. With literally everyone else claiming VT, the town needs to have a PR, and he's the only one who did. (This seems to happen to T3 a fair amount it'd seem. I know from experience it kinda sucks for scum to lose a free mislim due to a player claiming a PR that conftowns them, but hey, the scumteam collectively decided to all claim VT, so in this case, conftowning T3 is entirely their own fault.)

Now, what does T3 being town mean?

Well it means that the scum need a rolecop is what it means.

T3 could of course be a Named Townie--but that doesn't fix the balance problems. A Named Townie doesn't conftown themselves just by existing in the game. You can maybe, MAYBE see a Named Townie as being town if you have a NRG member or two in the game who know that 2 PRs is too few for a Mini Normal so a third even if it is worthless PR is fundamentally needed. But that's something which Jingle couldn't do until after the game began and I believe the game was balanced before the players.

In other words, the Finder cannot be just a Named Townie. They need to have a purpose.

Named Townies can exist as red herring roles, e.g. a Miller with no Cop, but when they exist, they exist as an extra to an already basically at the necessary power level town. If T3 were useless, then the town would still be tremendously underpowered.

So T3

needs

to have a purpose. His purpose could've been to verify a town rolecop's claim/existence but with no rolecop claim, it's mandatory that the rolecop will be scum.

The thing about that though, is that a rolecop, a full rolecop, makes the game scumsided still, in spite of T3 to find them.

So the rolecop both needs to EXIST, and also be GATED. We're talking, ~2-shot rolecop.

However, {Tracker, Jailkeeper, Rolecop-Finder} vs. {2x Rolecop} is still scumsided because the rolecop can identify town PRs, and the Rolecop-Finder doesn't know that the Rolecop is scum. If the scum Rolecop truthfully claimed, then the Rolecop-Finder could, reasonably, assume that the Rolecop was town and the Rolecop-Finder was meant for the town to be able to verify town. {Tracker, Jailkeeper, 2x Rolecop, Rolecop-Finder} vs. {Some weak scum PR or even Goonx3} wouldn't be townsided; it'd be at about the balanced range, so the scum rolecop claiming rolecop wouldn't even be a scumclaim from them.

So the rolecop can identify the town PRs way too well, and the rolecop-finder doesn't have a way to know that they are a cop, leaving that hypothetical setup still ludicrously scumsided.

But there's an easy fix to that.

There's a rising trend in Normal Games to have 2-3 members of a scumteam have the exact same role, and have a town player capable of creating a soft-guilty. (I'd know, I've reviewed most of them.) I can point to like 3-5 games which have used this. (The first Normal to do it was a town rolecop vs. 3 scum strongmans in a game with zero town killstopping power. The rolecop didn't know that non-strongman = town, but it wasn't too hard to deduce once two scum strongmen had flipped.)

And if the rolecop-finder needed a way to identify that they are in fact meant to find scum, the best way to have that: split the rolecop into multiple scum.

Ergo, 2-3 one-shot rolecops on the scumteam. Or maybe, maybe, a 2x rolecop + scum UB combo. (Same basic effect, but marginally stronger for the scumteam.)

While this could potentially allow the scumteam to get two rolecop results N1, it'd also mean that they are more vulnerable since while they get the information faster/sooner, the rolecop-finder is more likely to get mileage.



So what does all that mean?

T3 is conftown. He can't be scum and have us have a balanced setup.
T3 cannot be a worthless role--there must be at least one scum rolecop, but the setup isn't really balanced if there's not a second one.
Said rolecops must be gated, to have the game not be scumsided.
And thus, that means T3's results actually are very important:

I am a Town Rolecop Finder in Game A.

Dunn, Chloe, and Dwlee are all not Rolecops.

If there's 2-3 scum rolecops, then that means that there's 2-3 scum in the names outside of this:
{Radical Rat, Titus, CheekyTeeky}. Radical Rat is the obvious choice here. (I'm not sure which of Titus/CheekyTeeky would be scum as both slots have been town the entire game.)

The scumteam's not going to be precisely {Radical Rat, Titus, CheekyTeeky}, but it should have a minimum of 1/3 and if the Rolecop Finder can get multiple guilties, very well may have 2/3. (Barring a scum UB who was investigated initially as an innocent but turns into a guilty after the scum rolecop is yeeted.)

There's going to be a minimum of 2/3 town in {Dunnstral, Lady Chloe, Dwlee99}. While it's possible all three are town, it's quite unlikely. If I had to pick a scum from there it'd be Dunnstral.

Now, I'm going to be honest: I don't know who the third scum is. Regardless of play or the extended mechanics, there's no way around it:
With T3 as mechanically conftown, I only have two scumreads:
Radical Rat and Dunnstral.

Which means one of my townreads is wrong: {Titus, CheekyTeeky, Lady Chloe, Dwlee99}.

But while my mechanical theory about there being 2-3 scum rolecops could be wrong, my mechanical theory about T3 as far as I can tell

cannot

be wrong. Meaning no matter what, one of my four townreads is in fact scum. (Possibly more obviously but a minimum of 1.)

I think the optimal play is eliminating Radical Rat, although I'd also be willing to risk the Dunnstral elimination (and I am aware that Dunn vs Titus is an ongoing 1v1).

However, I want Ircher's factchecking on my work here. I'm pretty damn sure I'm right here, but I'd like his confirmation.

[mastina]

I don’t believe mastina's setup spec but I am open to T3 being town.

You should.

While T3 may not be as strong as I believe he should be (it's possible for goon x3, or single rolecop, rather than my assumed double rolecop), he's never scum here in Game A/1.

And the only way he'd be scum in Game B/2 is if RR is, so...

[mastina]

Then we go RR --> Lady?

I think Dunn/RR + one deep wolf? Rn, lean Chloe rn just because she’s not doing much rn but still could possibly be wrong on that.

How much should we possibly be factoring T3 results here, since we know that Dwelee/Chloe/Dunn can’t be RC? Or is that irrelevant atp since we have two tprs dead and another claimed?

So if we factor in T3 results, should we be going for a slot who is greater > chance of being scum + rc? If T3’s claim is legit, then we obviously know that at least one of the vanilla claims obviously has to be false.

I mean, I basically said this days ago.

RR, probably Dunnstral, and one deepwolf for scum in game 1.

I preferred RR first, but Dunn first still gets the job done.

Dunn scum means Titus probably town, which limits the possible scum deepwolf to {Dwlee, Cheeky, Tsly}.

But we'll cross the bridge when we get to it.

[mastina]

Tsly

Who? Lady?

Correct.

[mastina]

Titus is still scum in A.

Just FYI.

Good luck.

For the record, I won't put much stock into this opinion if Dunn flips scum, but I'll acknowledge that there's at least a reasonable chance that you're right--but in said situation, Dunn is town and we just lose. (Which is why I preferred RR first. Dunn is PROBABLY scum, but RR in game 1 is basically CERTAINLY scum.)

So I guess we'll be finding out shortly. We lose, you were right; game continues, you were probably wrong.

[mastina]

Why were you townreading A50?

Right from the start he was being active and working to solve all three games, easily carrying Game 3 in particular. He also went as far as to refrain from his usual monkey business in the interest of keeping a confusing setup from being even more confusing. Scum!A50 I'd imagine wouldn't have any qualms about creating additional confusion, and would just play as normal.

I'm calling bullshit on you town reading A50 for solving all 3 games.

I was solving for all 3 games and you still pushed me as possible scum.

So tell me: what makes A50s solving of all 3 games be town when my solving for all 3games was not?

And yes, I was also very active, too. Active and from the very getgo, solving all 3 games.

What makes the trait both A50 and I displayed town for him, but not for me?

RR you literally argued that me being town in one game would allow me to be in my town meta in solving all 3 games. You said this multiple times in fact.

So why the clear on A50 for the very thing that you tried to go out of your way to say wasn't town for me?

It did not escape my notice btw that RR didn't answer this.

[mastina]

god RR was so transparently scum

I mean.

They were my preferred vote for a reason.

[mastina]

RR is legit UB. Please don't eliminate them.

This was never really in question IMO, but there is a thing which keeps RR from being conftown:

Themes aren't bound by the same rules as Normals.

In a Normal, a UB must be the same alignment of the role to inherit it.

But, less so for themes, which can be "first PR" rather than "first PR of your alignment".

After all, RR loses very little from being a truthfully claiming UB if it still nets them towncred and a free ticket to push for a scum-favored gamestate.

If they're town, scum will need to deal with them, so that's why I am not pushing them today, but until RR flips town, I'll remain skeptical, so as to not lose 2/3 games, thank you very much.

[mastina]

A Win Condition has been achieved!

CheekyTeeky, Mafia Rolecop, has survived to the endgame and won.
Radical Rat, Mafia Goon, has survived to the endgame and won.
Titus, Mafia Simple-Checker, has survived to the endgame and won.
T3, Rolecop Finder, has been endgamed!
Lady Chloe, VT, has been endgamed!
Dwlee99, VT, has been endgamed!

For the record: that setup's insanely scumsided.

We're talking upwards of 75+% when the cutoff is 60%. Town CAN win it, but legitimately won't like 80% of the time because the scum are WAY too strong and the town too weak.

I get that 2/3 of the town PRS flipped in the first two game phases, but the death of town PRS was inevitable when the scum had THREE methods of checking for PRS. (The nightkill is the third.)

Will be back after I get work stuff done.

[mastina]

My continued life is very strong evidence that A50/Titus are Town here.

I claimed UB in the Game 1 scum thread fairly early on. While obviously they couldn't have fully explained their reasoning, I would expect a scum Titus/A50 to insist on killing me before I got any results.

While this is true if you are town, scum are generally disinclined from killing scum.

Also, a UB only becomes a threat after a PR dies. So you living wasn't a town indicator for Titus until this day phase.

[mastina]

BTW Titus is wrong on T3/RR.

RR can be scum even with T3 town.

[mastina]

BTW Titus is wrong on T3/RR.

RR can be scum even with T3 town.

To explain:
We know that there's an alignment change after CheekyTeeky.

We do NOT know WHERE it is.

If it's immediately after Cheeky, then both T3 and RR are scum.
If it's after T3, then RR is scum.
It's only if it's after RR that both T3 and RR are town.

We know that one of the three above is correct.
We do NOT know which.

T3 flipping scum condemns RR as the last scum…
…But T3 flipping town says NOTHING about RRs alignment.
RR flipping town hardclears T3…
…But RR flipping scum says NOTHING about T3s alignment.

[mastina]

A Win Condition has been achieved!

CheekyTeeky, Mafia Rolecop, has survived to the endgame and won.
Radical Rat, Mafia Goon, has survived to the endgame and won.
Titus, Mafia Simple-Checker, has survived to the endgame and won.
T3, Rolecop Finder, has been endgamed!
Lady Chloe, VT, has been endgamed!
Dwlee99, VT, has been endgamed!

For the record: that setup's insanely scumsided.

We're talking upwards of 75+% when the cutoff is 60%. Town CAN win it, but legitimately won't like 80% of the time because the scum are WAY too strong and the town too weak.

I get that 2/3 of the town PRS flipped in the first two game phases, but the death of town PRS was inevitable when the scum had THREE methods of checking for PRS. (The nightkill is the third.)

Will be back after I get work stuff done.

BTW to explain how ATROCIOUSLY scumsided that setup is and how egregious it is that it was let through when a competent NRG member would NEVER have passed it:

The Scum's number of ways to check for town PRS is equal to the number of town PRS.

What's so egregious about that?

Well for a start?

It makes it MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the scumteam to have NOT identified AT LEAST 2/3 of the town's prs…by the end of NIGHT TWO.

Lylo is on D4, and the scum are GUARANTEED to have identified AT LEAST 2/3 PRS A FULL DAY BEFORE THEN.

If you think that the scum, mathematically, not being able to NOT know 2/3 of the town's PRS ISN'T scumsided?
Frankly your balance sense is terrible, because that is an absolutely unacceptable amount of scum power.

I'm not joking, can show you the math when home.
I'm actually dead serious: if both scum PRS were town vs. 3 goons, we'd have a setup close to balanced. With the scum PRS though, the town needs to play PERFECTLY to have so much as a CHANCE to win.

Yes, having 2/3 town PRS dead by D2 means that this was the worst case scenario for the town…
…But when I show you the math, you'll agree that it'd take the town's BEST case scenario to have a CHANCE.

Even if Meg AND RCE lived through N1, the town would have it rough.

[mastina]

And yet, we didn't actually find T3 until the last night, in spite of not even needing to use our PRs on the first two.

Yes, well, when you have already found 2/3, finding the third becomes more difficult.

Doesn't change the mathematical proof that you'd be guaranteed to find 2/3. In fact, it only strengthens my point.

[mastina]

You are forgetting that town has two investigatives which guilty two of the scumteam. It's theoretically possible that the scumteam is down to 1 scum viable at the end of day 3. They have no way to stop investigators at all. Knowing about a PR isn't a counter to a PR. That's just knowing a way you're screwed.

No, the town roles don't guilty the scumteam. Quite the opposite, they generate false innocents.

The tracker gets a guilty IF tracking the goon, but only has a 1/11 chance to. If tracking either scum PR, the tracker seeing them visit a player who doesn't die is going to falsely clear that scum player thinking that they're a tpr.

The rolecop finder can FIND the rolecop, but finding the rolecop ISN'T a guilty. Even IF the rc finder assumed that the rc were scum, they only have a 1/11 chance to find it, and get false innocents on both other scum.

The jailkeeper doesn't know if they stopped a kill via block or protect, and that's IF they think themselves the only killstop.

[mastina]

You are forgetting that town has two investigatives which guilty two of the scumteam. It's theoretically possible that the scumteam is down to 1 scum viable at the end of day 3. They have no way to stop investigators at all. Knowing about a PR isn't a counter to a PR. That's just knowing a way you're screwed.

No, the town roles don't guilty the scumteam. Quite the opposite, they generate false innocents.

The tracker gets a guilty IF tracking the goon, but only has a 1/11 chance to. If tracking either scum PR, the tracker seeing them visit a player who doesn't die is going to falsely clear that scum player thinking that they're a tpr.

The rolecop finder can FIND the rolecop, but finding the rolecop ISN'T a guilty. Even IF the rc finder assumed that the rc were scum, they only have a 1/11 chance to find it, and get false innocents on both other scum.

The jailkeeper doesn't know if they stopped a kill via block or protect, and that's IF they think themselves the only killstop.

Now, if the rc finder were told that there was precisely one scum rc, AND the JK were told that they're the only killstopper, we'd get marginally closer to balanced. I still wouldn't pass the setup, because it'd be closer to 65% scumsided when the Cutoff's 60%, but it'd be better.

Basically, you can't approach balance with the mindset that the town will know the info which you have. They're the UNINFORMED majority. That means that they DON'T know what is in the game, so they only have their best guess.

Assuming that the town will correctly deduce precisely the truth, which this setup does, is VERY bad design.

And as to your point RE:two scum dead? Yes, THAT turns both the tracker and the JK into cops, but if the scumteam let's 2/3 of their members die early without identifying the tprs, they frankly deserve to lose, as that's the extreme best case scenario for the town.

Plus, scum can freely kill with impunity here. A jk blocks, so follow the cop's not possible.

But regardless, balance should be about the AVERAGE outcomes, with a note about the ease of the extremes.

The average for this game's absurdly scum, and the ease of the scum extreme MUCH higher than the ease of the town extreme.

[mastina]

You are forgetting that town has two investigatives which guilty two of the scumteam. It's theoretically possible that the scumteam is down to 1 scum viable at the end of day 3. They have no way to stop investigators at all. Knowing about a PR isn't a counter to a PR. That's just knowing a way you're screwed.

No, the town roles don't guilty the scumteam. Quite the opposite, they generate false innocents.

The tracker gets a guilty IF tracking the goon, but only has a 1/11 chance to. If tracking either scum PR, the tracker seeing them visit a player who doesn't die is going to falsely clear that scum player thinking that they're a tpr.

The rolecop finder can FIND the rolecop, but finding the rolecop ISN'T a guilty. Even IF the rc finder assumed that the rc were scum, they only have a 1/11 chance to find it, and get false innocents on both other scum.

The jailkeeper doesn't know if they stopped a kill via block or protect, and that's IF they think themselves the only killstop.

Now, if the rc finder were told that there was precisely one scum rc, AND the JK were told that they're the only killstopper, we'd get marginally closer to balanced. I still wouldn't pass the setup, because it'd be closer to 65% scumsided when the Cutoff's 60%, but it'd be better.

Basically, you can't approach balance with the mindset that the town will know the info which you have. They're the UNINFORMED majority. That means that they DON'T know what is in the game, so they only have their best guess.

Assuming that the town will correctly deduce precisely the truth, which this setup does, is VERY bad design.

And as to your point RE:two scum dead? Yes, THAT turns both the tracker and the JK into cops, but if the scumteam let's 2/3 of their members die early without identifying the tprs, they frankly deserve to lose, as that's the extreme best case scenario for the town.

Plus, scum can freely kill with impunity here. A jk blocks, so follow the cop's not possible.

But regardless, balance should be about the AVERAGE outcomes, with a note about the ease of the extremes.

The average for this game's absurdly scum, and the ease of the scum extreme MUCH higher than the ease of the town extreme.

[mastina]

You are forgetting that town has two investigatives which guilty two of the scumteam. It's theoretically possible that the scumteam is down to 1 scum viable at the end of day 3. They have no way to stop investigators at all. Knowing about a PR isn't a counter to a PR. That's just knowing a way you're screwed.

No, the town roles don't guilty the scumteam. Quite the opposite, they generate false innocents.

The tracker gets a guilty IF tracking the goon, but only has a 1/11 chance to. If tracking either scum PR, the tracker seeing them visit a player who doesn't die is going to falsely clear that scum player thinking that they're a tpr.

The rolecop finder can FIND the rolecop, but finding the rolecop ISN'T a guilty. Even IF the rc finder assumed that the rc were scum, they only have a 1/11 chance to find it, and get false innocents on both other scum.

The jailkeeper doesn't know if they stopped a kill via block or protect, and that's IF they think themselves the only killstop.

Now, if the rc finder were told that there was precisely one scum rc, AND the JK were told that they're the only killstopper, we'd get marginally closer to balanced. I still wouldn't pass the setup, because it'd be closer to 65% scumsided when the Cutoff's 60%, but it'd be better.

Basically, you can't approach balance with the mindset that the town will know the info which you have. They're the UNINFORMED majority. That means that they DON'T know what is in the game, so they only have their best guess.

Assuming that the town will correctly deduce precisely the truth, which this setup does, is VERY bad design.

And as to your point RE:two scum dead? Yes, THAT turns both the tracker and the JK into cops, but if the scumteam let's 2/3 of their members die early without identifying the tprs, they frankly deserve to lose, as that's the extreme best case scenario for the town.

Plus, scum can freely kill with impunity here. A jk blocks, so follow the cop's not possible.

But regardless, balance should be about the AVERAGE outcomes, with a note about the ease of the extremes.

The average for this game's absurdly scum, and the ease of the scum extreme MUCH higher than the ease of the town extreme.

I'd also like to point out, EVEN THE TRACKER GUILTY isn't a hard guilty. It would be if it was a follower (generally speaking, followers and trackers are considered loosely equal in balance, fulfilling similar purposes, but IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, follower would've been stronger), but since it wasn't, there's counterplay.

What's the counterplay to a tracker guilty?
Literally any PR claim which plausibly could've visited.
If the scum was suspicious of the nkd player, claim an investigative PR. Tprs who scumread a player waste their action on the scum nk all the time.
If the scum townread the nkd player, they could claim Doctor, with the scum having strongmanned their target. It does happen, and Doctor + JK vs. Strongman is a plausible setup. Double killstop vs. Strongman is actually incredibly common in Normal games, so the JK/Tracker wouldn't be able to tell that the guiltied scum player was bullshitting.

Plus, if the guilty was on D3 with no scum dead? The scum could argue that the town tracker was scum trying to guarantee that the rest of the game would be lylo.

Even better if the guilty is on D4 with no scum dead; the scum can point out that it's lylo, so the guilty is clearly scum trying to sweep the game.

Basically, without the town knowing what the setup is, they have zero idea of what info means for them.

[mastina]

@mastina, I'm not arguing this with you right now. We have Game B to solve.

I mean, I'm already voting Dunn.

He flips town, scum can ONLY include RR and either House or T3.

In the far, far, far more likely scenario when he flips scum, the last scum can only be v1/2 of {House, RR}.

So game two is already solved, we just need to have the votes placed in their proper order.

[mastina]

Thank you mastina that post should probably go in MD post game, I found it really helpful.

Btw Cheeky I realize this was basically an attempt at buttering me up, but I unironically am working at least mentally in my head on making basically that.

I want to make an MD thread which covers why setup balance doesn't translate from micros to minis (covering my suspected reasons for it, value of scum; ease of blending; ease of genuine suspicion generation; more players to be suspicious of; more time to kill competent players), opens to closeds, general balance practices for a mini (3-4 moderately-strong PRs, emphasis moderate for 4, emphasis strong for 3), situationally-strong roles and the things about them that you need to take into account with design, swinginess/complexity (particularly, commentary on the snowballing of a lead), general rules of balance (e.g. the focus on the average outcome, not a focus on the extremes, but with care taken to the ease of the extremes), the gradual transition to more fun, and maybe (not sure on this) a section about 'flair' vs. 'theme' (flairs being something unique about your setup that makes it stand out, themes being when it goes too far and would be better as a theme game in spite of its technical normality).
Probably also mentioning how site standards shift (there's one very good example although I'll need to double-check my review threads to find what I want to say there).

It's all in my head now, so I'm writing this mostly as a "do not forget these things", but I'll be making it soon enough. I'll need to wait for this game to end obv, but that should give me time to also bring in my notes from postgames in Normals.

It makes it MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the scumteam to have NOT identified AT LEAST 2/3 of the town's prs…by the end of NIGHT TWO.
…But when I show you the math, you'll agree that it'd take the town's BEST case scenario to have a CHANCE.

This will be part of it (and on that note, I'll still be showing said math, just it'll have to wait until tomorrow since I got distracted today ), btw.

I don't see how RR must be scum. Eli5.

Simple.
If Dunnstral is town, then per RR's claimed result, that'd make Amy Dunne scum.

Except, Amy Dunne cannot be scum with House given how hard she was pushing him in BOTH games.

If you are town, then that leaves the only possible scum for Amy Dunne as Lady Chloe--and I don't buy that as being the scumteam. If the choice is "RR, the slot that's looked sketchy" vs. "Lady Chloe, the towniest slot in the game", I'm going to eliminate RR ten times out of ten.

[mastina]

If Dunn flips Town, it's Amy and House OR Alyssa.
I haven't done the math to know if it's safe to eliminate me first in that case, but I'm probably dead tonight anyway, so I guess it'll all get cleared up then

We have one spare elimination, so we can afford to miss--once. (Unless a scum's kill fails again in which case we gain another mislim since we're on evens right now.)

This is both why I want a Dunnstral elimination today, and if he flips scum, an RR elimination tomorrow assuming scum leave you alive. Because it removes unsafe variables, it generates the most possible information, and it gives us the clearest best endgame state possible where we know the most we can possibly know and we have all the info we can have. When we get to mylo, I want to have there be no paranoia, no take-our-word-for-it scenarios, for it to be as close as we can get to having taken every variable into account.

A Dunnstral townflip means that you'd be scum since again, Amy Dunne's not scum with House and your claimed result would require Amy Dunne to be scum. Meaning the only possible scumteams would be RR + buddy (could even be Amy honestly) or Amy + Lady Chloe (and the latter I refuse to believe). However, that's only if Dunnstral flips town. Which he almost certainly isn't. It's good to prepare ahead in the worst case scenario where he IS town, but I just think that he's scum. I've thought Dunn was scum in one game from the beginning, I think his Demon Lord claim was scum-motivated, and I think the Demon Lord is a scum role because I have a suspicion that the scum having two roles to fuck with voting mechanics was a deliberate design choice on Jingle's part to give them counterplay to the wagon analyzer. (For the record, the UB being scum still fits that as the potential for the final scum to inherit the role would make it three for three in roles to fuck with the wagon analyzer. Which is another reason why I think RR could be scum regardless of Dunnstral's alignment.)

A Dunnstral scumflip means one scum left, and we have the knowledge that Amy Dunne is conftown (via RR's claimed result) and T3 is conftown (since T3 can only be scum if RR is, Dunn flipping scum means T3 can't be scum due to only one scum alive). Scum can kill one in the night, but not both. Meaning that we go into tomorrow with Titus (basically conftown already), RR, myself (essentially confirmed), 1/2 of our conftown, House, and Lady Chloe--
Eliminating RR tomorrow is safe. If RR is the last scum, it's the correct move to have made.
If RR is not scum, it basically creates a "1v1" between House and Lady Chloe. (Lady Chloe is not scum btw, so...)

That, aside from how RR is going to generate another result.

And if the scum kill RR to prevent that result, we've got even better!
Scum killing RR means that Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both alive and conftown--with Titus as basically conftown and me as basically confirmed, you know what that means? We have 6 alive, a mislim, and literally precisely two scumspects, in House and Lady Chloe. (And it's not Lady Chloe.)

So the scum cannot kill RR, meaning RR should get that extra result, meaning that RR should give us the extra info tomorrow, and we can confirm the info by eliminating RR as to prevent the scenario of RR being scum bullshitting.

[mastina]

I also don't see scum shooting you n1.

It's possible imo if and only if the scum have a roleblocker--the scum might've (erroneously) thought that they could block my activation of my bulletproof and kill me. (I did say that I didn't think it'd work that way, but the scum very easily could've missed that part of my claim, since it was in a small section in parenthesis that was easy to miss. So if scum weren't reading every line of my claim, they could've thought that they could roleblock my activation of the bulletproof.)

However, I do admit it's not certain. It's very possible that there's a town killstopper role who was either roleblocked or couldn't act (or scum strongmanned Cheeky) the night Cheeky died.

As in, said killstopper could very possibly have been responsible. (There's no doubt in my mind that the killstopper exists and is real; you of all people Titus should have reason to agree. But the cause of the N1 no-kill isn't as certain.)

[mastina]

(sidenote for the theory post; remember to include my section on (fake)claims)

Lady Chloe has been killed in the Mini Theme! She was:

Spoiler: Mini Theme

Welcome, Lady Chloe to Triplicate Mafia: Carbon Paper. A love letter to Bureaucracy at its finest.

You are

Form 1040

, aligned with the Paperwork faction.

Replace every 'Lady Chloe' with 'Alyssa the Lamb', and in fact: you do not discard what I say as it is still valid.

[mastina]

MOD: Strongly V/LA for next 48 hours due to work

[mastina]

I'm too busy chatting in the scum pt to pay attention to this thread right now.

Honestly?

I genuinely believe that.

I've reason to believe that House is scum, but I'll wait until day + available to explain.

[mastina]

Okay it's too late for me to go into the details tonight, but (hopefully) tomorrow, I intend to:
-Explain why I don't think Amy Dunne is scum (play yesterday, seeing myself in her, thinking my scumread was wrong, lack of scumbuddies)
-Explain why I think that House IS scum (play stuff)
-Explain why I think that RR is scum (the G1 scum PT treatment actually being evidence

against

them not for them which I know I'll need to explain to Titus since she'll assume the opposite, Titus being alive, ease of the claim being scum, play stuff)
-Explain why I don't think Alyssa's slot is scum (play stuff)

But in the mean time:

Game Two Neighborhood PT Members:

can you paraphrase the entirety of the PT?
Additionally, I would like to hear the thoughts of the dead townies there; they should still be solving for who the scum is.
In particular, I want their thoughts now, and after I give my cases above to see if they change their stances, find flaws in my logic, etc.

Titus, RR:

can you paraphrase your scum PT from game 1 start to finish?

You may note: no vote here.
Because while I'm

pretty

sure that my evidence does implicate RR + House as the scumteam, I'm not

absolutely

sure to the point of being so confident I'd vote. And even were I, RR would deserve the opportunity to defend themselves, and the G2 PT members if they think RR to be town deserve the chance to explain their belief there.

[mastina]

mastina stinks of scum, too.

I don't lie about my role, yet alone claim to be an alignment that I'm not. (And the proof that I was breadcrumbing 3p before D2 is plenty present, too, so you can't claim that it was bullshit I made up after the result.)

I

am

nontown in that I

am

third party, but that's actually the reason why I think you're scum:

The town needs me in order to win now since they can't vote out scum without me, but that wasn't the case yesterday. I admit to some selfishness in not having mentioned it at the time (while I am altruistic in wanting to win with the town, I am not an idiot) but yesterday the town had a safe option to eliminate: me. You had one mislim to spare. I was, explicitly, claimed nontown. I was, explicitly, not going to flip town, so it was guaranteed that my death would not be a town death.

Now, granted. I, personally, know that I am not scum, and that my 3p claim is legitimate. I, personally, know that I need two scum dead in order for me to win. I, personally, know that I need to scumhunt and need to work with the town in order to have a chance at winning.

But only I, personally, know these things.

The town does not know that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim. (It

should

be obvious, but there's no explicit CONFIRMATION beyond my meta strongly suggesting so.)
The town does not know that I need two scum dead in order to win.
The town does not know that I need to scumhunt.
The town does not know that I need to work with the town to have a chance at winning.

The town, explicitly, only has my word and my word alone at those being true. And while I, personally, know them to be true, the town does not.

So if the town wanted to eliminate me, they had ample opportunity to have done so yesterday. Doing so would've confirmed that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim; doing so would've confirmed I needed two scum dead in order to win; doing so would've confirmed that I needed to scumhunt, and thus, that all of my reads were valid and shouldn't be ignored as 3p with an agenda. (Since while I do have an agenda of surviving to the end of the game, I need two scum dead as part of that agenda meaning that I need to scumhunt.)

...So why did nobody suggest my elimination yesterday?

It didn't crop up so much as once.

Why didn't RR suggest it? Radical Rat is a mechanics-oriented player, after all, and the mechanical advantages of eliminating a guaranteed not-town slot shouldn't have escaped them.

Why didn't you suggest it, House? You said it yourself:

I always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.

You know this.

You always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.

So why didn't you call for my death yesterday?

Why, when the town had a mislim to spare, didn't you suggest eliminating the third party who in your own logic would count against town majority?

You didn't push anything at all.

You were passive.

You went with the flow.

You never argued against the town plan. You just went along with it.

Which is not the town House I know. When have you ever been passive as town? When have you ever not pushed your stances even when they went against those of the entire town? You literally pushed for my elimination in a game where you

suspected

I was third party when you were town; in this game, I outright claimed it and not once have you voted me.

[mastina]

and this pretending that you can bullshit is exactly the problem I have with you.
Feck off. I'm done with you.

Forgive me for not buying the AtE here.

You have a valid point that I have, historically, had bad reads on you before; if you're town, this would not in fact be the first game where I had you as town correctly for the majority of the game but circa lylo reevaluated into a wrong scumread.

But I will still point out the contrast in attitudes between your attitude this game and your attitude in prior games I have seen you where you were town.

The level of hostility you're showing to me here is absolutely new--if it had existed previously, you've not shown it so do forgive me for not buying it from you now.

@mastina, why doesn't your passive/didn't push you rationale also apply to Alyssa?

Alyssa pushing me would've been a scumclaim since she's one of the best players on site at reading me and frankly one of the best town players on site period.

But Alyssa is not someone whose skills and gamesolving as town rely on her pushing players hard. Her style of being a strong player is, innately, inherently, a lot more passive, a lot more reactive, a lot more in response to others. Yes, she tends to be a little more active in having done so than in this game, but, 1: she's a replacement and this game has multi-game mechanics that are complex and can interfere with what she'd want to do until we were down to one game, and, 2: she's back from a year-break just recently. While I would expect her skills to remain, her ability to instantly win the game for the town I would imagine will take some rev-up time, so to speak.

Also, Alyssa's still skilled at scumplay, too, so this would be an underperformance regardless of her alignment, and I feel like the two factors above are plenty enough a justification for it.

But Alyssa has been in the game for a grand total of 12 days, and is already on her way to topping the charts post-wise. Her posts show a solving trajectory that I feel is indicative of her being town, and she's been engaging a lot with you, Titus, rather than engaging a lot with me. If Alyssa were scum I'd expect her to have more of a focus on me, interacting more with me, engaging more with me, trying to get me more involved with her as a key slot to help her.

Instead, she's more interacting with you, which I feel is town-indicative for Alyssa because Alyssa as town doesn't know your alignment. She can safely figure out that I'm truthful just by knowing me and thus, knows she doesn't need to spend much time on me. A few questions here and there (which she's asked), but mostly, her effort is focused on interacting with the slots that are unknowns, rather than interacting with the slots that are more known.

I realize that it's possible that Alyssa as scum figured I'm not reevaluating and that effort was better focused on pocketing you Titus--but that feels like a big risk for her since I am not reckless in lylo scenarios and give proper reassessment and time to consider and can get paranoid and reassess prior assumptions...including her being town. It feels like while Alyssa is

possible

as scum, the

probable

answer is that she's just town.

Beyond that? The slot wasn't just her being town.

If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.

If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.

You have at least a few hours during which you're effectively a Townstump for Game 1.
Who did you JK? What are your final reads?

Oh right I was just going to chance it and hold the info but I might be donezo and I didn't crumb anything since in my head I could just stay in thread when I die.

I jailkept cheeky. There was a post she made way early that I was going to soft on but yeah I had the immortal RC thought.

These show that RCE was probably genuine in being town.

But then there's one more thing:

from the 2 games I've played with RCE I think I may have some kind of meta tell on him

I'm like 95% sure RCE is town in all of his games.

Top townread? Definitely RCE.

T3 has thusfar been proven right on 2/3 of his games in having said this. RCE was town in games 1 and 3.

I trust T3 to be right about RCE being town in all three games, and Alyssa is the RCE slot.

[mastina]

I'm mostly interested in sorting Titus one way or another, since that's ultimately what solves the game for me

Titus is mechanically conftown per RR's result and was already strongly indicated as town prior to that anyway.

While it's theoretically possible for the scumteam to be RR + Titus, you always flip RR there first. And even then, Titus is probably not lying since the interactions don't seem to fit with the two being scum together. Plus, half of my proof for RR being scum relies on Titus not being scum.

Cheeky claimed to RR and Titus prior to D2.

If RR and Titus were scum, then they could have just submitted a kill on Cheeky with no consequence. She'd die without generating so much as a single result, and nobody would be the wiser. Nobody would know it was due to her having claimed in the PT.

Instead, she lived--which indicates that the scum either didn't know (the scumteam would have to be 2/3 of {you, House, Amy Dunne} when House and Amy Dunne are very clearly not scum together in other words basically require you to be scum which you know to not be true)...

...Or that they did, but felt that they couldn't make that kill without it being a scumclaim. If Cheeky claimed N1 in the theme via the game 1 scum PT, then if she ended up dead on D2, it'd tell Titus that RR was scum in game 2.

Plus, if Titus or CheekyTeeky died too soon in the mini theme, they could be concerned about RR and leave clear unambiguous breadcrumbs as to why the kill on them in game 2 had to come from a game 1 scum player.

That, aside from the sheer value in just the pocketing power of a scum neighborhood. Cheeky would need to die for the town results to stop, but never underestimate the power of a scum pocket via a neighborhood.

What in Titus's unclaimed-publicly role would make it MANDATORY to kill her? She's very clearly not an investigative. If she were she'd have useful results by now. And if she's not an investigative, she's not a threat to the scum. If she's a killstop role, there's counterplay...especially if you happen to be in a PT with her and know her claim and thus know the appropriate counterplay. Nobody died N1, sure, but if Titus thinks that's clear evidence RR wouldn't be scum...it's not, because the scum genuinely could have tried to kill me N1, especially with an attempted rb+kill. Or they could've failed to submit a kill, or deliberately chose not to.

As long as there's not a second failed kill, scum lose nothing from N1 having no kill. In fact they arguably gain a lot from it. Keeps the games more synchronized, keeps all slots alive/suspicious, and...can lead to the pocketing of the town killstop role by letting her think that she'd be dead.

Which is actually why I think Titus's continued survival is an indicator that RR is scum.

For instance, A50 figured out RCE was a town PR on D1 in the normal. What stops scum from game two from having figured out he/Titus were a town PR in game two? It hasn't exactly been subtle. So if the scum knew she was a PR...why haven't they killed her? The reason feels like RR would have more reason to keep her alive.

[mastina]

mastina stinks of scum, too.

I don't lie about my role, yet alone claim to be an alignment that I'm not. (And the proof that I was breadcrumbing 3p before D2 is plenty present, too, so you can't claim that it was bullshit I made up after the result.)

I

am

nontown in that I

am

third party, but that's actually the reason why I think you're scum:

The town needs me in order to win now since they can't vote out scum without me, but that wasn't the case yesterday. I admit to some selfishness in not having mentioned it at the time (while I am altruistic in wanting to win with the town, I am not an idiot) but yesterday the town had a safe option to eliminate: me. You had one mislim to spare. I was, explicitly, claimed nontown. I was, explicitly, not going to flip town, so it was guaranteed that my death would not be a town death.

Now, granted. I, personally, know that I am not scum, and that my 3p claim is legitimate. I, personally, know that I need two scum dead in order for me to win. I, personally, know that I need to scumhunt and need to work with the town in order to have a chance at winning.

But only I, personally, know these things.

The town does not know that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim. (It

should

be obvious, but there's no explicit CONFIRMATION beyond my meta strongly suggesting so.)
The town does not know that I need two scum dead in order to win.
The town does not know that I need to scumhunt.
The town does not know that I need to work with the town to have a chance at winning.

The town, explicitly, only has my word and my word alone at those being true. And while I, personally, know them to be true, the town does not.

So if the town wanted to eliminate me, they had ample opportunity to have done so yesterday. Doing so would've confirmed that I am not scum bullshitting a 3p claim; doing so would've confirmed I needed two scum dead in order to win; doing so would've confirmed that I needed to scumhunt, and thus, that all of my reads were valid and shouldn't be ignored as 3p with an agenda. (Since while I do have an agenda of surviving to the end of the game, I need two scum dead as part of that agenda meaning that I need to scumhunt.)

...So why did nobody suggest my elimination yesterday?

It didn't crop up so much as once.

Why didn't RR suggest it? Radical Rat is a mechanics-oriented player, after all, and the mechanical advantages of eliminating a guaranteed not-town slot shouldn't have escaped them.

Why didn't you suggest it, House? You said it yourself:

I always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.

You know this.

You always call for the death of any 3p because they count against town majority.

So why didn't you call for my death yesterday?

Why, when the town had a mislim to spare, didn't you suggest eliminating the third party who in your own logic would count against town majority?

You didn't push anything at all.

You were passive.

You went with the flow.

You never argued against the town plan. You just went along with it.

Which is not the town House I know. When have you ever been passive as town? When have you ever not pushed your stances even when they went against those of the entire town? You literally pushed for my elimination in a game where you

suspected

I was third party when you were town; in this game, I outright claimed it and not once have you voted me.

and this pretending that you can bullshit is exactly the problem I have with you.
Feck off. I'm done with you.

Forgive me for not buying the AtE here.

You have a valid point that I have, historically, had bad reads on you before; if you're town, this would not in fact be the first game where I had you as town correctly for the majority of the game but circa lylo reevaluated into a wrong scumread.

But I will still point out the contrast in attitudes between your attitude this game and your attitude in prior games I have seen you where you were town.

The level of hostility you're showing to me here is absolutely new--if it had existed previously, you've not shown it so do forgive me for not buying it from you now.

@mastina, why doesn't your passive/didn't push you rationale also apply to Alyssa?

Alyssa pushing me would've been a scumclaim since she's one of the best players on site at reading me and frankly one of the best town players on site period.

But Alyssa is not someone whose skills and gamesolving as town rely on her pushing players hard. Her style of being a strong player is, innately, inherently, a lot more passive, a lot more reactive, a lot more in response to others. Yes, she tends to be a little more active in having done so than in this game, but, 1: she's a replacement and this game has multi-game mechanics that are complex and can interfere with what she'd want to do until we were down to one game, and, 2: she's back from a year-break just recently. While I would expect her skills to remain, her ability to instantly win the game for the town I would imagine will take some rev-up time, so to speak.

Also, Alyssa's still skilled at scumplay, too, so this would be an underperformance regardless of her alignment, and I feel like the two factors above are plenty enough a justification for it.

But Alyssa has been in the game for a grand total of 12 days, and is already on her way to topping the charts post-wise. Her posts show a solving trajectory that I feel is indicative of her being town, and she's been engaging a lot with you, Titus, rather than engaging a lot with me. If Alyssa were scum I'd expect her to have more of a focus on me, interacting more with me, engaging more with me, trying to get me more involved with her as a key slot to help her.

Instead, she's more interacting with you, which I feel is town-indicative for Alyssa because Alyssa as town doesn't know your alignment. She can safely figure out that I'm truthful just by knowing me and thus, knows she doesn't need to spend much time on me. A few questions here and there (which she's asked), but mostly, her effort is focused on interacting with the slots that are unknowns, rather than interacting with the slots that are more known.

I realize that it's possible that Alyssa as scum figured I'm not reevaluating and that effort was better focused on pocketing you Titus--but that feels like a big risk for her since I am not reckless in lylo scenarios and give proper reassessment and time to consider and can get paranoid and reassess prior assumptions...including her being town. It feels like while Alyssa is

possible

as scum, the

probable

answer is that she's just town.

Beyond that? The slot wasn't just her being town.

If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.

If I die before day 2 in every game I'm taking my ball and going home.

You have at least a few hours during which you're effectively a Townstump for Game 1.
Who did you JK? What are your final reads?

Oh right I was just going to chance it and hold the info but I might be donezo and I didn't crumb anything since in my head I could just stay in thread when I die.

I jailkept cheeky. There was a post she made way early that I was going to soft on but yeah I had the immortal RC thought.

These show that RCE was probably genuine in being town.

But then there's one more thing:

from the 2 games I've played with RCE I think I may have some kind of meta tell on him

I'm like 95% sure RCE is town in all of his games.

Top townread? Definitely RCE.

T3 has thusfar been proven right on 2/3 of his games in having said this. RCE was town in games 1 and 3.

I trust T3 to be right about RCE being town in all three games, and Alyssa is the RCE slot.

I'm mostly interested in sorting Titus one way or another, since that's ultimately what solves the game for me

Titus is mechanically conftown per RR's result and was already strongly indicated as town prior to that anyway.

While it's theoretically possible for the scumteam to be RR + Titus, you always flip RR there first. And even then, Titus is probably not lying since the interactions don't seem to fit with the two being scum together. Plus, half of my proof for RR being scum relies on Titus not being scum.

Cheeky claimed to RR and Titus prior to D2.

If RR and Titus were scum, then they could have just submitted a kill on Cheeky with no consequence. She'd die without generating so much as a single result, and nobody would be the wiser. Nobody would know it was due to her having claimed in the PT.

Instead, she lived--which indicates that the scum either didn't know (the scumteam would have to be 2/3 of {you, House, Amy Dunne} when House and Amy Dunne are very clearly not scum together in other words basically require you to be scum which you know to not be true)...

...Or that they did, but felt that they couldn't make that kill without it being a scumclaim. If Cheeky claimed N1 in the theme via the game 1 scum PT, then if she ended up dead on D2, it'd tell Titus that RR was scum in game 2.

Plus, if Titus or CheekyTeeky died too soon in the mini theme, they could be concerned about RR and leave clear unambiguous breadcrumbs as to why the kill on them in game 2 had to come from a game 1 scum player.

That, aside from the sheer value in just the pocketing power of a scum neighborhood. Cheeky would need to die for the town results to stop, but never underestimate the power of a scum pocket via a neighborhood.

What in Titus's unclaimed-publicly role would make it MANDATORY to kill her? She's very clearly not an investigative. If she were she'd have useful results by now. And if she's not an investigative, she's not a threat to the scum. If she's a killstop role, there's counterplay...especially if you happen to be in a PT with her and know her claim and thus know the appropriate counterplay. Nobody died N1, sure, but if Titus thinks that's clear evidence RR wouldn't be scum...it's not, because the scum genuinely could have tried to kill me N1, especially with an attempted rb+kill. Or they could've failed to submit a kill, or deliberately chose not to.

As long as there's not a second failed kill, scum lose nothing from N1 having no kill. In fact they arguably gain a lot from it. Keeps the games more synchronized, keeps all slots alive/suspicious, and...can lead to the pocketing of the town killstop role by letting her think that she'd be dead.

Which is actually why I think Titus's continued survival is an indicator that RR is scum.

For instance, A50 figured out RCE was a town PR on D1 in the normal. What stops scum from game two from having figured out he/Titus were a town PR in game two? It hasn't exactly been subtle. So if the scum knew she was a PR...why haven't they killed her? The reason feels like RR would have more reason to keep her alive.

Pagetopping these, as it's pertinent to this:

Okay it's too late for me to go into the details tonight, but (hopefully) tomorrow, I intend to:
-

Explain why I don't think Amy Dunne is scum (play yesterday, seeing myself in her, thinking my scumread was wrong, lack of scumbuddies)

-Explain why I think that House IS scum (play stuff)
-Explain why I think that RR is scum (the G1 scum PT treatment actually being evidence

against

them not for them which I know I'll need to explain to Titus since she'll assume the opposite, Titus being alive,

ease of the claim being scum, play stuff

)
-Explain why I don't think Alyssa's slot is scum (play stuff)

The bolded I've yet to do, but the above are me having covered the non-bolded.

[mastina]

Who is RR's partner?

Who's anyone's partner?

House-Amy Dunne has interactions that make it basically impossible.

Amy Dunne-RR is basically impossible from the 1v1.

Titus-Amy Dunne is mechanically impossible.

Amy Dunne can only plausibly be scum with Alyssa the Lamb.

House-Alyssa is mechanically impossible.

Per House-Amy Dunne having interactions that make them being scum together basically impossible, that means:

House can only plausibly be scum with Radical Rat.

Radical Rat's not scum with Amy Dunne, per their 1v1.
Radical Rat can thus only be scum with you or House--if you're town you know it to be with House.

There's a reason that I've said that I genuinely believe it to be {RR, House} vs. {Amy Dunne, Alyssa the Lamb}.

Because the only possibilities aside from that are either impossible, gamethrowing (RR+Amy), or incredibly unlikely requiring a masterclass in scum theater (Amy Dunne + House). (That or you're scum with RR but you'd know the answer to that obv.)

[mastina]

VOTE: Amy Dunne
Not vibing ya, Ames.

VOTE: House

Hero vote right hyur.
VOTE: Amy DunneNot vibing ya, Ames.

No reaction to A50’s post?

It's A50, not the first time I've seen him pull a hero solve out of his ass on d1.

Yes which includes you but this is all you have to say about it?

Obviously.

You're just trying to look like you're solving. How many games are you red?

It's not odd. I just don't take d1 hero solves seriously.

You're making me happier with my vote every time you try this weak shit.

Should I be switching to RCE then?

Nah. My OMGUS vote looks better with you voting me.

Should I be switching to RCE then?

Nah. My OMGUS vote looks better with you voting me.

I’m asking A50 not you.

I'm responding anyway.
Glad we cleared that up.

*pops in*
VOTE: A50
VOTE: Meg
*pops out*

Why are you voting A50?

I'm whimsical like that.

VOTE: House
I don’t like this response.

I AM solving and none obviously. Which rn looks like a helluva lot more than I can say for you.

VOTE: RCE
VOTE: House

(for clarity: House was dead in game 3 at that point)

I’d seriously like to know why House? The fact the he tops Mastina’s list and he is higher than me, makes me wonder if how much stock I should put into any of Mastina’s reads unless I’m mindmelding with them myself.

(this was in response to me having House as a top townread in both remaining games)

Mastina sounds townie but RR could still be wifomming like A50 said and that #1 House tr gives me the heebie jeebies.

He voted me for no good reason, so he was obviously fine with trying to miselim me, so I have serious doubts on that and since I know you’re wrong on me, not tr House.

I’m thinking about it but I also can’t wrap my brain around Mastina’s House #1 tr. Usually town!Mastina has an actually townie slot that high. Like if she had maybe Cheeky or even A50 there but something’s off with House being so high.

Her rationale being he was scum in 3, so he is town in everything else, based on freaking what exactly? What has he even done remotely townie?

Absolutely nothing.

VOTE: Ircher
VOTE: House

I think if Mastina’s scum it’s probably not in game 3, since I don’t know why she’d bus Meg, when no one was suspecting her but

her inexplicable House tr could still mean that they might be possibly be buddies in 1 or 2.

*pops in*
VOTE: A50
VOTE: Meg
*pops out*

I would really like to know how this is Mastina’s #1 tr?

I think Mastina’s tr on House still makes 0 sense but she probably looks better than either you or House.

This choice of Ircher tells me he's not scum with House in either of the 2 games.

Also Amy is not scum with House in the remaining 2 games.

That'd be because

nobody

is scum with House because he's town in both.

And you know this how?

*pops in*
VOTE: Radical Rat
VOTE: Radical Rat
*pops out*

Why place the vote twice if it's on the same player?

Eventhough I think the statistical argument is mostly bs, the odds of any player rolling S - S - S is unlikely but I really don’t understand this vote because of all of the flipped scum in C, RR seems the towniest.

Why is House town again Mastina?

There is a marked difference in Radical Rat's posting rate after his Mafia-elimination and conclusion of Game 3.

I wonder what House saw there.

Exactly and voting the same player in both games anyway, is antitown af.

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

Did...did they think I was lying about being bulletproof???
Or get concerned I was legit conftown if they nightkilled???

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Regardless, I kinda wanna claim credit for the lack of the kill.

Why would that make anyone confitown?

Actually House looks scummiest in B too.

These btw are why House-Amy? Not exactly likely.

[mastina]

Is there any reasoning that RR+Titus is impossible beyond the Game A scum thread thing?

Yes I think so but I don't remember, sorry.

[mastina]

Also I asked Titus already, but I want to ask you too whether RR could realistically organize this type of endgame by themselves

I mean...not likely, but like...

...What are the slots that could help them?

Amy Dunne cannot have helped RR.

So the options are {You, Titus, House} for having helped organize this endgame.

[mastina]

@mastina, Humor me for a second. What if scum did try to shoot me?

I'd say it'd potentially implicate House as scum (which I think would still indicate RR as scum). It might depend on the timing of your replace-in which I'd need to check tho, because scum shooting A50 has a lot more explanation than scum shooting Titus.

A50 for instance? Not above lying/gambiting, and lying to scumbuddies in game A about his role in game B is precisely the sort of move he would pull as a gambit, perhaps unrealized in the result (where he intended to clarify later, basically), but still there.

A50 is also more prone to scrutinize PTs--as proof of this, you need only look to game 3 for the evidence. A50 literally outted himself as a mason in the first two pages of the game because he (half-correctly!) thought he found scum there. What's to stop him from having scrutinized the game A scum PT and the scum in game B being afraid that he would be, shall we say, a tattletale of sort once game A ended?

In either case I don't think that RR is cleared from it. It either does nothing towards their alignment (if it was you in the slot) or actually works as evidence against them imo (if it was A50 in the slot).

[mastina]

Dunnstral thinks it's Amy + House btw
I'm kinda leaning that way too now

VOTE: Amy Dunne
Not vibing ya, Ames.

VOTE: House

Hero vote right hyur.
VOTE: Amy DunneNot vibing ya, Ames.

No reaction to A50’s post?

It's A50, not the first time I've seen him pull a hero solve out of his ass on d1.

Yes which includes you but this is all you have to say about it?

Obviously.

You're just trying to look like you're solving. How many games are you red?

It's not odd. I just don't take d1 hero solves seriously.

You're making me happier with my vote every time you try this weak shit.

Should I be switching to RCE then?

Nah. My OMGUS vote looks better with you voting me.

Should I be switching to RCE then?

Nah. My OMGUS vote looks better with you voting me.

I’m asking A50 not you.

I'm responding anyway.
Glad we cleared that up.

*pops in*
VOTE: A50
VOTE: Meg
*pops out*

Why are you voting A50?

I'm whimsical like that.

VOTE: House
I don’t like this response.

I AM solving and none obviously. Which rn looks like a helluva lot more than I can say for you.

VOTE: RCE
VOTE: House

(for clarity: House was dead in game 3 at that point)

I’d seriously like to know why House? The fact the he tops Mastina’s list and he is higher than me, makes me wonder if how much stock I should put into any of Mastina’s reads unless I’m mindmelding with them myself.

(this was in response to me having House as a top townread in both remaining games)

Mastina sounds townie but RR could still be wifomming like A50 said and that #1 House tr gives me the heebie jeebies.

He voted me for no good reason, so he was obviously fine with trying to miselim me, so I have serious doubts on that and since I know you’re wrong on me, not tr House.

I’m thinking about it but I also can’t wrap my brain around Mastina’s House #1 tr. Usually town!Mastina has an actually townie slot that high. Like if she had maybe Cheeky or even A50 there but something’s off with House being so high.

Her rationale being he was scum in 3, so he is town in everything else, based on freaking what exactly? What has he even done remotely townie?

Absolutely nothing.

VOTE: Ircher
VOTE: House

I think if Mastina’s scum it’s probably not in game 3, since I don’t know why she’d bus Meg, when no one was suspecting her but

her inexplicable House tr could still mean that they might be possibly be buddies in 1 or 2.

*pops in*
VOTE: A50
VOTE: Meg
*pops out*

I would really like to know how this is Mastina’s #1 tr?

I think Mastina’s tr on House still makes 0 sense but she probably looks better than either you or House.

This choice of Ircher tells me he's not scum with House in either of the 2 games.

Also Amy is not scum with House in the remaining 2 games.

That'd be because

nobody

is scum with House because he's town in both.

And you know this how?

*pops in*
VOTE: Radical Rat
VOTE: Radical Rat
*pops out*

Why place the vote twice if it's on the same player?

Eventhough I think the statistical argument is mostly bs, the odds of any player rolling S - S - S is unlikely but I really don’t understand this vote because of all of the flipped scum in C, RR seems the towniest.

Why is House town again Mastina?

There is a marked difference in Radical Rat's posting rate after his Mafia-elimination and conclusion of Game 3.

I wonder what House saw there.

Exactly and voting the same player in both games anyway, is antitown af.

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

Did...did they think I was lying about being bulletproof???
Or get concerned I was legit conftown if they nightkilled???

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Regardless, I kinda wanna claim credit for the lack of the kill.

Why would that make anyone confitown?

Actually House looks scummiest in B too.

These btw are why House-Amy? Not exactly likely.

[mastina]

Shotgun response off general associatives is that I would be more cautious about them in a game like this

I wouldn't--associatives are actually more meaningful since if you vote someone in one game, you're voting them in all games. So if Amy were scum with House, every vote on House would be risking his death in game 2 during that timeframe due to the game sync between games 1 and 2 lasting until D3.

Amy was pushing House in both games 1 AND 2. As an extra reminder: the Demon Lord was not in fact controlled by scum and was in fact controlled by town, so voting House in game 2 was extra risky for Amy because at any point, if a wagon there formed, House could die in game 2 without being killed in game 1.

mastina, your argument is that Titus being alive makes me look Town, which means I'm Scum doing it for towncred? Am I reading that correctly?

Not precisely.

My argument is that Titus being alive is something

you

believe will make you look town.

town physically cannot win if the scumteam is anything other than the two combinations mentioned by her unless she can be convinced that she's falsely clearing one
at least unless she decides to scumside, which isn't entirely unrealistic since I've seen her do that before

As a reminder, it's literally impossible for me to scumside with two scum alive. I realize you have only my word for that, but the fact that I am actually trying to scumhunt here is fairly good proof of that.

As for scumteams, yes, I do need convincing, but I can in fact be convinced.

The scumteam possibilities are:

House-Titus: mechanically impossible via RR
House-Alyssa: mechanically impossible via RR
House-RR: one of the two scumteam combos I think is most likely (but the elimination is always RR first)
House-Amy: I've explained why I think this is an unlikely combo and if you believe otherwise, yes, you'll need to convince me as to why. (The elimination would be Amy first.)

Alyssa-Titus: mechanically impossible via RR
Alyssa-RR: a possible scumteam combo which admittedly I've not given much thought to (but the elimination is always RR first), although it's obviously one you'd know to not be the case Alyssa.
Alyssa-Amy: the other scumteam combo I think is most likely (but the elimination would always be Amy first)

Titus-RR: while I think it's very unlikely, it's at least possible (but the elimination is always RR first)
Titus-Amy: mechanically impossible via RR

RR-Amy: possible, but basically gamethrowing from RR if so.

So when you remove the impossible, you get only:
House-RR:

Very likely combo

House-Amy:

Unlikely combo

Alyssa-RR: Possible, not really discussed tho
Alyssa-Amy:

High chance combo

Titus-RR:

Unlikely combo

RR-Amy:

basically impossible barring gamethrowing

In every single one of those, we eliminate either RR or Amy.

Dunnstral made a pretty good point in the neighborhood, and one that realistically shouldn't be reposted in the main thread

I find this baffling coming from you.

Weren't you the one who complained about keeping things from the main thread in a previous Jingle mini theme?

'Cause I distinctly recall you complaining about how much of the game was in that PT, how much of the game revolved around that PT, the info in that PT being kept from the town, your inability to interact with the players within, etc.

You're now doing to me what was done to you in that game by keeping the info from me. Which is, again, why I find it so baffling. I realize that game was two years ago, but I'd expect the bad experience of having been locked out of the loop to have stuck with you? Like, I remembered it, and it wasn't even me who was affected! How could I remember something relating to you which you wouldn't? So I find it hard to reconcile your self from back then complaining about how much you were locked out of the loop, and your self now deliberately locking players like me out of the loop.

[mastina]

I think he was talking about how any competent scum team would kill you, or something.

One attempt definitely, but beyond that, being bulletproof puts a dampener on that. Scum could afford one missed kill; they could not afford two.

My argument is that Titus being alive is something you believe will make you look town.

I mean, not really? Killing Titus would definitely have made me look worse, but only to Titus, who would have been dead, and doesn't have PT access to my knowledge.

Killing Titus wouldn't be something which would make you scum, but keeping her alive would be something you'd believe would make you town. You can have a kill not be the opposite indicator of a lack of a kill, and vice versa.

A scumteam not including me has no real reason to kill her over either me or T3

How about the fact that she blatantly and unambiguously breadcrumbed killstopper yesterday? That seems like a fairly damn strong incentive for scum to kill her, on top of how she was being treated as basically cleared.

[mastina]

that actually does confirm that Titus can only be scum with RR

Yes I said this earlier.

[mastina]

Not gonna lie, I'm kinda tempted to vote Amy Dunne here...

...But

not

to eliminate her.

Placing her at L-1 would, if there was a lack of hammer from both House and Alyssa, confirm that it MUST be RR + Titus, or Amy + House/Alyssa.

I'm not doing so however because obviously, House is a very very very likely partner for RR and since House isn't voting Amy......

[mastina]

(basically, I'm tempted to vote Amy Dunne, confirm Alyssa didn't hammer, confirm House didn't hammer, and then after that I would immediately unvote her...
...But because I think House

would

hammer, it's unfortunately too risky for me to try.)

[mastina]

Then we will lose and that won’t be on my head.

If you vote House, I would join and hope the town in Amy/RR joins. I feel much better on voting House.

Apparently my message wasn't clear.

Are you familiar with the concept of hammer-testing?

Where, in a lylo scenario, you risk the game by placing a vote at a time you know another player is around, wait for them to post, then immediately unvote? If they hammer, the game ends in a scum win, but if they don't hammer, you conftown them without risking the game.

That's what I meant.

No, I would not vote Amy here.

In Amy-RR right now I'm always voting RR unless there's a damn good argument to be had for Amy being scum when I really don't think she actually is.

But I'd almost be willing to hammer-test by voting Amy (who has 2 votes) to conftown Alyssa. Almost--because I can't risk it due to House.

Where was this?
I didn't think she said anything regarding her role until the night had ended, and I didn't see it from skimming her ISO

Well night ended at 2877, which means all of these were before the night ended: [quote="In post 2808, Titus"I also don't see scum shooting you n1. This means we have a braindead and/or bulletproof protective.[/quote]

If I live, we flip Amy tomorrow.

If I live, the game is over for the scumteam.

.

In b4 Dunn flips town and I get another game under my belt to shove in people's faces over my Titus reads.

You mean lemon demon where you townread me out of the gate? You get lucky sometimes but you're wrong here.

I always treat you as town up until the moment I call you scum. Nothing strange there.

Nice try.

Just be prepared for the egg.

mastina's early reads suggest that as a possibility too, if we're assuming

(which I'm not 100% sure of)

, that mastina's bp was hit.

Scum shoot RR (worst case, protective is a dumbbutt or blocked) or scum block RR and shoot T3
If scum do not kill or block RR and there's a protective it's mech.

I don't think mastina's bulletproof is why no kill on n1

Of course I was a too late dingbat night 2.

No further comment here.

The last ones I am quoting, the first chronologically, are plenty enough on their own but are supported by the ones later on.

Suffice to say: Titus has been breadcrumbing killstopper since

the beginning of

Day Three

.

The scum, in spite of Titus's breadcrumbs, did not shoot her N3, they shot Lady Chloe for ??? reasons.

The scum, in spite of Titus's continued breadcrumbs, did not shoot her N3, they shot T3 in spite of him not being mechanically conftown given RR's survival.

Thus, Titus surviving this long can be only one of two things imo:
Either the scum are completely and utterly incompetent at reading the thread (while this is

possible

from Amy Dunne, her only possible scumbuddies very much

should

see it--House isn't incompetent so the only way he misses it is with tunnelvisioning on accusing Titus; RCE and Alyssa are both damn good at hunting for breadcrumbs so there's no way they miss it)...

...Or the scum didn't miss it, but deliberately chose to leave Titus alone.

Tell me, RR: who, knowing Titus is breadcrumbing killstopper, has the most incentive to keep her alive?

'Cause you're bullshitting if you don't answer yourself. Because you very much do have the most incentive to keep her alive.

[mastina]

Tell me, RR: who, knowing Titus is breadcrumbing killstopper, has the most incentive to keep her alive?

Well, for one, I don't think most of those actually indicate killstopper, though the couple regarding you not being the reason for the N1 no kill definitely are, I'll acknowledge that much.

But beyond that, T3 is just a better kill than either me or Titus in general. Can't say much for the Chloe kill, but T3 was the only kill that actually made sense for scum to make last night, regardless of my alignment. They can't kill me if I'm scum, because... Well, I'm one of them. They can't kill me if I'm Town, because that dooms Amy. Titus kill isn't the worst move, but flipping her makes it slightly easier to get meaningful information out of my result, since taken in isolation my Dunnstral analysis COULD implicate her as well as Amy, it only doesn't now because of prior results establishing Town!Amy as impossible. So T3 dying generates the least information, and he was never viable as a mislim, whereas Titus could possibly have been, and indeed she is being shaded as my potential partner.

There are also... Other reasons why your theory about me not killing for towncred don't work, but I can't really go into those unless Titus decides to fullclaim.

To answer your question more directly, I don't know who benefits the most specifically, but I think it more just comes down to having better options to kill rather than looking for a particular reason to spare Titus.

Yeah this reeks of so much bullshit that it's taking all of my willpower to just not instavote it.

I could explain right now but suffice to say: this is an absolute bullshit of an attempt to write off what is basically a hard-condemnation as something other than what it is. We're talking almost Pooky-level of bullshitting here.

[mastina]

Mastina, I have the cards you don't.

Do you?

'Cause I'm pretty sure you can't get an elimination without MY vote. (Well unless two town vote town. Then there can be an elimination without my vote, but at that stage the town lost, so...)

And as far as I'm concerned, your inability to get an elimination without MY vote means it's not YOU with the cards--it's ME.

I'll admit that I have access to the least amount of information since Alyssa and House among others have a neighborhood with multiple players (and they're keeping something from me for some reason), and you had the scum PT with RR (and you're keeping things from me for some reason). So I admit that I don't have access to the information in spite of the fact that scum definitely have access to the neighborhood and if RR were scum the scum would have access to the scum PT info. So keeping information from me when I am the deciding vote is frankly stupid and idiotic. I admit that I don't have access to the information you have access to.

But what I DO have is a vote necessary for the town to win and let me tell you:

RR looks 98% scum to me right now and everything they say only strengthens that scumread rather than weakening it.

And you're not going to get me to not vote them off of "trust me".

I don't have trust in you, Titus--even IF you are town (which you very well may not be!), you can be mistaken about RR being town. So frankly, no, I don't trust you. And so I am going to exercise MY power and play MY card.

VOTE: Radical Rat.

Shouldn't end the game since it's impossible for scum to vote out town with my vote (if RR is town, Amy is scum and Amy was already voting; I'm the second vote; it takes 4 to eliminate so the only way for RR to die is for another town player to vote RR), but shows my stance and my threat.

[mastina]

And as far as I'm concerned, your inability to get an elimination without MY vote means it's not YOU with the cards--it's ME.

You may point out, Titus, that you if you are town are necessary to have your vote for an elimination to go through.

But I am bulletproof so I can't die at night.

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

And then in 5p lylo (instead of our 6p mylo), it only takes one wrong vote for scum to win. Meaning that if you want my vote, you need to convince me. In contrast, I don't need your vote. You, tomorrow, will either be dead (and thus, have no vote to use the weight of), proven wrong if I vote RR and there's no scum hammer (if Amy and I vote RR in 5p and then there's no hammer, your only options are to argue I am scum with Amy which is laughable at best or admit that RR is scum), or proven right if I vote RR and scum win because of your stubbornness.

So I repeat.

You're not the one holding the cards. You hold INFORMATION. You don't hold the CARDS.

I do. Because scum cannot kill me, meaning I am guaranteed to be around both today AND tomorrow.

And I mean it--right now, in 5p lylo? I would vote RR.

Frankly the situation with you and RR is reeking of bullshit, so I won't trust you, and I won't be bullied by your frankly empty threat of holding the cards, since I am confident in my stance that my vote + bulletproof status trumps anything you have access to in terms of weight in the game's outcome.

[mastina]

Put another way:
People have kept information from the game thread, "to keep the information from getting into the hands of the scum". As part of "precautions" taken.

Aside from how the scum likely already have access to said information, that's a ridiculously stupid idiotic moronic justification for keeping information private rather than public, because it fails to account for a very critical crucial factor:

The town needs my vote in order to win. It's literally impossible for the town to win without my help.

And as I am the least-informed player here, withholding the information from me isn't giving the town an advantage by hiding the information from scum--
Withholding the information from me is

preventing the town's chance at winning the game from

having the information needed to make an educated decision

.
I cannot die here. The scum can't kill me due to my status as bulletproof. And while town can vote out town without my help (the town can

lose

the game without my assistance), town cannot vote out scum without my help (the town cannot

win

without my assistance).

Withholding information from the player who makes the critical vote isn't helping the town--it's hurting the town. The "precautions" aren't precautions; they're basically gamethrowing by not factoring in the most important factor of all; that I cannot die, have a vote, and am needed for an elimination. As long as all three of those remain true, I'm the most important slot in the game. So holding information from me is decreasing the town's odds at winning, not increasing them.

[mastina]

Speaking of withheld information: we really

should

massclaim here.

RR has fullclaimed; I have claimed. But unless I'm mistaken, that's only 2/6 slots claimed.

In mylo.

Why haven't we had at least 3 other claims here? Titus holding back from claiming, she's partially explained at least, but the other three of you (House, Amy, Alyssa) have no such excuse for it.

[mastina]

(Okay so House at least said "I'm not claiming", in a refusal to claim. But Amy and Alyssa should have claimed here at least and I have a guess for House's role anyway.)

[mastina]

I have a guess for House's role anyway.

Please elaborate since's he's unwilling to claim.

It's pretty obvious he's the neighborizer.

Somebody made a neighborhood at the end of N1 with a bunch of people--the names chosen fit with being selected by House. Given his previous move as a neighborizer, it seems to just fit.

We know that something caused the neighborhood to form.

The options are:
A mod mechanic that was completely random;
A scum mechanic where they needed to choose the members (maybe with restrictions);
A role mechanic where it is a specific player's role. (Said player can be town or scum, but if scum I consider this still separate from the above as the second option is not tied to a specific scum role whereas this option is.) You can subdivide this into "town role" or "scum role", but it's the most likely of the three imo.

Mechanics where the scumteam has to choose things is more of a schadd_ mechanic than a Jingle mechanic (most MBOS games have it); mechanics which are completely random triggering at the end of N1 are possible, but unlikely; roles causing this effect seem to fit with Jingle's design modus operandi much better.

It can't be RR, you, or me; Alyssa and Amy have now claimed VT; as a consequence? Process of elimination, it's House.

Setup spec wise, I'll admit that my assumption of the gamestate is probably at least partially wrong: it doesn't make sense for House and RR to both be town with you as town, Titus, but it also doesn't make much sense for House and RR to both be scum, either. The town's too strong imo with both as town, but too weak with both as scum. If I had to pick one tho, well, if the hilariously-scumsided Mini Normal is anything to go by, the more likely of the two is both-scum imo. (Basically, we had one game that was tremendously scumsided beyond what's acceptable, and while both House and RR being scum would mean the town has a grand total of two PRs meaning they're tremendously underpowered, if I had to choose between the setup being townsided with both as town or scumsided with both as scum, I'm choosing it being scumsided every time given the Normal.)

So if I were to rank the options, by mechanics-speculation alone, it'd be:
One of {House, RR} scum, the other town > both {House, RR} scum > both {House, RR} town.

By PLAY, it'd be both {House, RR} scum > One of {House, RR} scum, the other town > both {House, RR} town, tho.

mastina, what if Titus HAD died? Who would you suspect in that case?

Genuinely? House. He has the most incentive to kill her. While he

could

keep her alive, for orchestrating a deliberate Titus v House fight (as a sort of distraction from RR vs Amy), nobody has as much reason to kill Titus as House would. Amy might be a close second and Alyssa a close third, but the player with the least reason to kill her is you.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

VERY important question: Did A50 claim the bodyguard BP protection

on RCE

during N1?

Take a look at the timestamps since this is

very

important.

Almost50 ordered the RCE kill in game 1. If he made an RCE protect in game two, it meant he knew that there was a chance the scumteam from game 2 would kill RCE and eliminate RCE's voice from the game (keep in mind that N1 was before the formation of the neighborhood PT).

(Btw this makes me like 100% sure Titus is town as I can't see that as a fakeclaim and can't see it as anything as true from A50 since this tracks 100% entirely with what he would be likely to do so the scumteam cannot be Titus + RR.)

I tend to agree that it makes it very likely that Alyssa is town especially if A50's protection was not announced until after N1 in the theme game had ended.

Which would make the possible scum be limited to {RR, House, Amy Dunne}.

[mastina]

[Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways.

The problem with that is that a failed kill gives the town an extra mislim. You v Amy Dunne is a 1v1. With an extra mislim, we'd be able to eliminate Amy Dunne for free. And then you'd be outed as confscum for having lied. And you couldn't win because you gave the town an extra elimination.

We're on evens now. A no-kill after an elimination would've brought us up to odds again. With a no-kill, today is seven alive rather than six. With two scum left in the game, that means we can safely kill Amy Dunne today and then tomorrow, it's 5p lylo but you're outed as confscum.

So no.

You could not no-kill last night.

Doing so would've been gamethrowing.

[mastina]

UNVOTE: RR
I'm not ready for the day to end yet.

I think that there's a fairly high chance of RR being scum and even if RR is not scum I think there's a fairly high chance of Titus managing to prevent the scum from winning the game, but while I believe both of those to be true, I still want the time to properly think things through here and we have the time to spare.

[mastina]

I have a guess for House's role anyway.

Please elaborate since's he's unwilling to claim.

It's pretty obvious he's the neighborizer.

Somebody made a neighborhood at the end of N1 with a bunch of people--the names chosen fit with being selected by House. Given his previous move as a neighborizer, it seems to just fit.

We know that something caused the neighborhood to form.

The options are:
A mod mechanic that was completely random;
A scum mechanic where they needed to choose the members (maybe with restrictions);
A role mechanic where it is a specific player's role. (Said player can be town or scum, but if scum I consider this still separate from the above as the second option is not tied to a specific scum role whereas this option is.) You can subdivide this into "town role" or "scum role", but it's the most likely of the three imo.

Mechanics where the scumteam has to choose things is more of a schadd_ mechanic than a Jingle mechanic (most MBOS games have it); mechanics which are completely random triggering at the end of N1 are possible, but unlikely; roles causing this effect seem to fit with Jingle's design modus operandi much better.

It can't be RR, you, or me; Alyssa and Amy have now claimed VT; as a consequence? Process of elimination, it's House.

Setup spec wise, I'll admit that my assumption of the gamestate is probably at least partially wrong: it doesn't make sense for House and RR to both be town with you as town, Titus, but it also doesn't make much sense for House and RR to both be scum, either. The town's too strong imo with both as town, but too weak with both as scum. If I had to pick one tho, well, if the hilariously-scumsided Mini Normal is anything to go by, the more likely of the two is both-scum imo. (Basically, we had one game that was tremendously scumsided beyond what's acceptable, and while both House and RR being scum would mean the town has a grand total of two PRs meaning they're tremendously underpowered, if I had to choose between the setup being townsided with both as town or scumsided with both as scum, I'm choosing it being scumsided every time given the Normal.)

So if I were to rank the options, by mechanics-speculation alone, it'd be:
One of {House, RR} scum, the other town > both {House, RR} scum > both {House, RR} town.

By PLAY, it'd be both {House, RR} scum > One of {House, RR} scum, the other town > both {House, RR} town, tho.

mastina, what if Titus HAD died? Who would you suspect in that case?

Genuinely? House. He has the most incentive to kill her. While he

could

keep her alive, for orchestrating a deliberate Titus v House fight (as a sort of distraction from RR vs Amy), nobody has as much reason to kill Titus as House would. Amy might be a close second and Alyssa a close third, but the player with the least reason to kill her is you.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

VERY important question: Did A50 claim the bodyguard BP protection

on RCE

during N1?

Take a look at the timestamps since this is

very

important.

Almost50 ordered the RCE kill in game 1. If he made an RCE protect in game two, it meant he knew that there was a chance the scumteam from game 2 would kill RCE and eliminate RCE's voice from the game (keep in mind that N1 was before the formation of the neighborhood PT).

(Btw this makes me like 100% sure Titus is town as I can't see that as a fakeclaim and can't see it as anything as true from A50 since this tracks 100% entirely with what he would be likely to do so the scumteam cannot be Titus + RR.)

I tend to agree that it makes it very likely that Alyssa is town especially if A50's protection was not announced until after N1 in the theme game had ended.

Which would make the possible scum be limited to {RR, House, Amy Dunne}.

Gonna pagetop this as I feel it's important.

[mastina]

Only if I'd claimed the same results I did truthfully here.
As scum with knowledge of an extant protective role, I know that we're only in fake MeLo here, and as such would fabricate results that expand my allowed misses.

???

You claimed on D4 that there was a scum within Amy Dunne and Dunnstral.
We eliminated Dunnstral--he was not scum.
If there was no kill last night, we go up to seven alive, and can eliminate Amy Dunne safely. And if she flipped town?
Then we know you were lying come 5p lylo, and you get eliminated. Clearing Titus does nothing to change the outcome of that--being a proven liar is something you can't work around.

The only way for you to avoid that is to have not said there was an alignment change between Amy Dunne and Dunnstral on D4. Which is before Titus hinted at protecting you.

[mastina]

I don't get where your concern about me gamethrowing is coming from.

Well if RR were scum and you refused to vote him, then it'd be gamethrowing, but you've since reassured me that isn't the case, so I am a lot less concerned.

This might be that situation. This feels like the role was particularly forced to get a result of some sort if RR is town. If Cheeky gets killed, then RR comes by and gets a result. If scum try to shoot an outed role, then the bodyguard should have protected them. *side eye A50* The only situation I see with that is scum should have a counter to follow the investigation unless the investigation doesn't feel gamebreaking to Jingle. Wagon sensor and similar roles tend to be some of the most controversial on mafiascum.

Well, Dwlee did have hated/loved, and I am a 3p (on a site that tends to policy-eliminate 3ps so I can theoretically have incentive to not claim), and both of those can significantly affect the balance of the wagon sensor.

It wouldn't surprise me if Jingle thought that the 3p wouldn't claim 3p and would lie and say they're town, in spite of the fact that doing so would be harmful to my wincon (because I need two scum dead) and in spite of how it could risk me becoming caught in a lie.

Basically, from my perspective, I had to claim, because not doing so would have ensured a scum win here when I need two dead scum in order for me to have a chance at winning. And if I hadn't claimed, down the line, I wouldn't have been able to. The town would rightly have asked, "if you had claimed earlier, you could've saved (mislims from me having not outted), why the hell didn't you?!?" (and then promptly eliminate me and lose to the scum). Or the town would see that there's X amount of alignment changes and deduce from the flips that it means I cannot be town and eliminate me (and then promptly lose to the scum). From my perspective, that means that it's mandatory for me to have claimed here, because the wagon sensor literally forces it if I am on the wagon that gets sensored. (And as I don't have any information about a wagon sensor, I have no way to know about it in advance.)

But Jingle probably didn't think about that interaction. He probably assumed a 3p wouldn't claim 3p even tho the wagon sensor basically makes it mandatory, because Jingle wouldn't think about how the wagon sensor would make a claim from the 3p on the wagon be mandatory. So he probably balanced it around the assumption that I

wouldn't

claim, because he failed to take into account the interactions above which make claiming mandatory to have a chance at winning.

All that said?

I agree with you.

Bodyguard-BP + unlimited wagon sensor + universal backup is too much imo even if Jingle didn't take into account that I'd be required to claim.

[mastina]

I think everyone has largely said their piece.

I'm less sure of that but I am siiiiiickkk and kinda just...just want to do this.

VOTE: Radical Rat

Sorry.

[mastina]

Would you like to fullclaim, mastina?

Wellllll I'll say that there was genuinely a mod error involved in that for the entirety of the game until last night I genuinely believed I was a shittier version of survivor. I genuinely thought that all I had was the ability to switch between bulletproof and ascetic and that I needed to be one of the last two alive.

I wasn't lying in my claim that I needed two scum dead in order to win.

I miiiiight have told a

slight

lie in regards to the subject of being a

benevolent

3p tho. (I knew the entire time I was malevolent, but I genuinely thought I was a shittier survivor. That I had to be one of the last two alive, but had no tools to do so.)

Last night it turned out that actually, there was a mod error in the mod not having corrected me on my mistaken reading of my role PM and that actually yes I did have a kill since I am in fact a serial killer. (There's no point in not claiming this, since Titus is via RR literally modconfirmed town--meaning that either you're the last scum Alyssa or I'm fucked with there being only two groupscum and you knowing that.)

I'll take my chances tho given you did basically instahammer RR;
VOTE: Titus

[mastina]

VOTE: Alyssa
I gave you the chance, and you rejected it, so...

[mastina]

So scum or sk win...

Honestly I'm pretty sure that mathematically the town couldn't win from the moment Dunnstral was eliminated. With two scum and a sk in 6p, the town could mathematically not eliminate all three nontown. The only way for it to happen was for the town to eliminate a scum and for a second nontown to be killed. I was under the mistaken impression I didn't have a kill and I sure as fuck wasn't going to deactivate my bulletproof, so...

I needed two scum dead in order to win but the only options from there were a scum win or a me win or a draw between scum and me which Alyssa just refused the option of.

But I will say tho that I was genuinely trying to help the town for the entirety of the game since I did need two scum dead in order to win, didn't know I had a nightkill, genuinely thought I was a shittier survivor, and if I couldn't win (which I thought for sure I wouldn't) I'd rather have had the town win than the scum win. (I genuinely was going to just concede if we eliminated 3 scum since at that point it'd have been obvious that I was lying about my benevolence.)

I legit thought initially that I had lost when RR was eliminated and flipped town and had to check why it hadn't ended in a scum win right then and there.

I will say tho that I do have genuine gripes with Jingle about the setup tho. (I was quite miffed at the wagon analyzer which genuinely forces a 3p claim.)

Can't talk much tho since I've gotta leave for a covid test.

Pedit:

VOTE: Titus
As a matter of fact, Alyssa, I do win a 1v1 endgame regardless of who is there.
I wasn't going to say as much since I thought it'd

deter

you from joint winning, but...

[mastina]

Although I'm guessing you already did check that before with just outing like that

VOTE: Titus

Actually I thought it clear from my original role PM.

I lied in its condition, it technically said that I win when everyone else was dead, which I assumed meant that I'd win a 1v1 endgame given I'm bulletproof.

GGs.