Open 838 – ISITMAINAC [Endgame]

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: cupcake

What's up fish lovers.

[RCEnigma]

Mate your expecting me to solve when I'll be dead by day 2.

Let me immediately contradict myself with some reads:
Salsa & Nathan town
STD TBD
Adse super bleh. Not a fos yet.

[RCEnigma]

Nathan would be a higher tier if not for 37. Slots making RVs posts with their first or second post is not *prolonging* the phase. If so it wouldn't exist in the first place.

[RCEnigma]

Side side note I will give an infallible case on scum in T-4 days. Scum will be elimmed and we will be a happier family. RC guarantee.

[RCEnigma]

VC is missing a vote.

[RCEnigma]

Well, for us to be a happy family some of us might have to make some sacrifices. Except me. And that's something I'm willing to accept.

[RCEnigma]

fixed

It's on the wrong person now.

[RCEnigma]

I mean, yes. I would like the IC to be present in the game. You got me.

ABSOLUTELY NOBODY IS FORCED TO BELIEVE ME, but I did miss the post where RCE was IC confirmed.

Now THAT is how much I have been paying attention so far.

didnt know I was IC AND didnt call me scum? hmmm

[RCEnigma]

Cool, okay. I disagree with RCEnigma's 39, because it was claiming that a slot's first or second post being an RVS post cannot be a prolongation of RVS in a game. I disagree with that because I think it doesn't matter which post in an individual ISO it is, if there's some attempt happening to get the game moving out of RVS, and the slot chooses to do an RVS post, they're trying to prolong RVS. Therefore his dislike of my 37 is bad and he should rethink all of his life decisions.

What does this argument tell you about my alignment, now?

damn, got me.

[RCEnigma]

lol consider me pocketed.

[RCEnigma]

Cool, okay. I disagree with RCEnigma's 39, because it was claiming that a slot's first or second post being an RVS post cannot be a prolongation of RVS in a game. I disagree with that because I think it doesn't matter which post in an individual ISO it is, if there's some attempt happening to get the game moving out of RVS, and the slot chooses to do an RVS post, they're trying to prolong RVS. Therefore his dislike of my 37 is bad and he should rethink all of his life decisions.

What does this argument tell you about my alignment, now?

Well for one thing I find it harder with more experienced players to determine alignment, here I feel like it's a very out-there idea that I really don't agree with, but I don't think that it can even come from scum (though I have no clue about its utility towards scum if anyone would care to inform me about that, that would be great).

the gist is that its nai. town can still feel it proper form to rvs post if they start the game later than everyone else. tons of people scumread things like that though.

its not like its ever been a strong point of any case against scum ever either way so its not worth butting heads over.

[RCEnigma]

rh9 and by extension adse are IC approved votes.

[RCEnigma]

rh9 and by extension adse are IC approved votes.

Thank you. You are officially the best scumhunter in the world, surpassing Cabd.
(Why did nobody realise how good I am before? I once even defeated the whole of Town, on another site, as SK. I survived to F3 and eliminated the last Town member.)

you're welcome. Naturally.

[RCEnigma]

rh9 and by extension adse are IC approved votes.

Why am I related to RH9?

this is my bad actually, something in my head made me put RH9's name to Scorpius' posts and there was no way a toneread there was a genuine read. I can buy it on actual rh9 maybe, though i dont agree.

[RCEnigma]

What are IC disapproved votes?

Nathan and STD.

Nathan can be honorary I for pushing slots I want pushed for reasons I want them pushed. Even if it took a little lob.

[RCEnigma]

What are IC disapproved votes?

Nathan and STD.

Nathan can be honorary I for pushing slots I want pushed for reasons I want them pushed. Even if it took a little lob.

Care to give detail to those reads?

Is this so you can sort me better?

[RCEnigma]

What are IC disapproved votes?

Nathan and STD.

Nathan can be honorary I for pushing slots I want pushed for reasons I want them pushed. Even if it took a little lob.

Care to give detail to those reads?

Is this so you can sort me better?

No, it's because I'm at best null with those two slots.

this is a weird interaction. why wouldnt you question those two slots if you wanted to move them out of null territory?

[RCEnigma]

What are IC disapproved votes?

Nathan and STD.

Nathan can be honorary I for pushing slots I want pushed for reasons I want them pushed. Even if it took a little lob.

How did i end up on this list with what i've done so far lol

you made me laugh and the fastest way to a mans heart is through his esoteric concept of humor.

[RCEnigma]

I was wondering why NM was being brought up so often. Turns out he's in this game. The more you know.

[RCEnigma]

Taly my hero VOTE: ADSE

[RCEnigma]

Whoops, taking your credit away Taly... unfortunately. Nathan is still the other IC.

[RCEnigma]

Did I really never vote RH9? I might be losing it.

[RCEnigma]

Ngl I like both jacket and three on rep in.
STD still town.

Poe is something like ADSE (not an activity based read)
NM
RH9
SM

If that doesn't contain all scum then deepwolf is probably like Galron or something but isn't a day 1 elim or day 2 barring some invest info.

Nathan and greeting are untouchables while I'm alive. STD behind them and CB behind that.

I had SM as town at some point I'll have to revisit that read.

I'll give the content I have down out closer to eod and if I'm still around day 2 I'll actually get to some solves town can use in my absence but right now with no guarantee of a protective I'm not really inclined to make hard lines day 1 since it could inadvertently create shields for scum to hide behind.

That k you for coming to my Ted talk.

[RCEnigma]

That content will mostly be explaining why ADSE is scum and why slots like STD Cupcake and Greeting are town. Just because they seem like some of the less sorted slots by the rest of town fmpov. I do want to look deeper into the Scorpius wagon. I've been iffy on his slot but his wagon doesn't give me good feelings in a general sense. I don't have a why on that feeling right now though.

[RCEnigma]

Yo Three. What do you think about jacket + SM then? Err more specifically salsa and SM.

[RCEnigma]

Did everyone just lose their mind?

Say we settle within three/jacket and both are town:

7/2 --> 4/2 IF scum shoot outside of jacket/three and vig/SK shoots within

3/2/1 if vig is SK

Or 7-2 -> 5-2 if vig/sk holds gives us
4/2/1 if SK

Massclaim can be tomorrow regardless of what we do today.

[RCEnigma]

NM would have been my preferred vig shot if we mislimmed twice anyways. He's cool to have around if he's a pr. Generally he's pretty easily readable when town but he wasn't here so he's essentially a dead or scum slot in the context of this game.

We have the core of your arguments (three and jacket) so at this point it's probably best for you both to step back for a bit or focus elsewhere for a moment and come back.

I have an idea of where I stand on both slots but the AtE makes me want you both gone and I don't feel that's the best way to go about it

[RCEnigma]

Let's talk about Cupcake being the scumkill Target which is more alignment and gamestate indicative than vig/SK's targeting.

[RCEnigma]

So I've been trying to be very hands off in the hopes someone steps up as townie outside of Nathan. Which hasn't happened.

To RH9 I did ignore you CB question but intentionally. It seems like no one else is really interested in exploring reasonings that don't fit their pushes though so it is what it is.

So while yeah I could see CB being targeted for being a possible pr I could also see scum being afraid of accuracy. If you go the route of Taly being elimmed for late game potential then the pool becomes pretty small for slots familiar with their towngame specifically. I'd have to read back who Taly said they had played with to flesh that idea out.

I haven't liked a lot of RH9's content but the callbacks to his questions for the town come off as townie over just continuing to post and leaving the hanging questions as busywork.

I'm still keen on greeting as town and I don't really want to get into three/jacket today. Even if I'm wrong on both of them being town there is at least 1 scum outside of them and a possible SK in that pool as well.

[RCEnigma]

That doesn't take into account jacket/three could be Sv3p or Tv3p but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Scorpius/looker/std as today's pool

Worst case tomorrow is 3v2v1 but if we do have a vig their shot is probably best served within this pool of the remaining two not elimmed.

[RCEnigma]

I guess the kill implicates Galron so not as useful as I thought.

[RCEnigma]

Also, regarding adse's wagon and why std has somewhat dropped in my reads. The wagon itself was town pushed which says nothing of Scorpius' wagon. Scum doesn't have to manufacture a wagon on town if one on town already exists except maybe to obfuscate VCA results.

Anyway my thoughts going into night phase where that scum likely existed outside of either wagon (SM) or in slots that were soft defending adse in zero hour in the event adse flipped town (three,std)

Those are just the names that stood out to me and doesn't necessarily include all slots that fit under that category.

[RCEnigma]

For discussion sake, if scum were on ADSE, who do you think it would be - gonna be phone posting for the holidays so bear with me.

Pedit wow

Rh9, greeting, Scorpius. I don't have any degree of surety in declaring any of them as definite town the way I do with Nathan so any of the three could plausibly be scum but I do find the former two slots as less likely than the latter.

[RCEnigma]

Also forgot that vig could be one shot.

[RCEnigma]

Yeah but I don't see A50 making that kill. The reasoning is convoluted so I won't get into it. STD could but Occam's razor say Galron saw taly as a threat and stuck the kill there.

[RCEnigma]

I don't see how that's relevant to this game.

[RCEnigma]

Panicked doesn't have any bearing. It's just threat analysis. Who has the best tools to snuff out their intentions. I took myself out of the equation with perceived apathy. Though I don't think I was in danger of dying n1 regardless of what I said d1.

If Galron wasn't already flipped red then yeah I think it would be a stronger case against a50.

[RCEnigma]

Actually I don't think it matters much with A50 repping out D1 anyway.

[RCEnigma]

What would this even achieve if it was AtE? I know I'm not being pleasant right now and I literally keep saying to vote me. If I wanted to actually AtE it would be extremely easy, I'd just post like Jacket has been. I can read the room enough to know playstyle is being prioritized much more than actual content when it comes to who's getting eliminated, that's why ADSE got voted even though content wise they were fairly townie, as well as why RH9 got so much heat this game.

As far as telling people what page to look at, I already

have

. When I say look at EoD, there shouldn't be confusion.

This is hindsight talking. My problem is what happens if we flip jacket and they're green? Because we have to flip you at that point. And IF you're throwing this tantrum as town then that's just game over with three consecutive town flips.

You might not care but I'm sure people here do want to play to win and there is always a way for town to win with correct play. We just have to find the correct play. If vig wants to pop a shot at jacket that's fine, I can't make anyone do anything, even if I don't think it's the right play. I'm always against vig free firing but that's theory that won't sway anyone that's already fired blank into the crowd.

[RCEnigma]

Just as rule of thumb. If we have a 1 shot cop they are essentially a named townie until GF flips. A full cop holds inno checks unless they have 2 alive at least and even then there aren't any hard clears till GF flips.

Town roleblocker and cop can confirm each other if rb hits cop. Rn and doc can I'm theory but it's only one way. Doc confirms town RB exists but town rb can't confirm doc.

[RCEnigma]

Just as rule of thumb. If we have a 1 shot cop they are essentially a named townie until GF flips. A full cop holds inno checks unless they have 2 alive at least and even then there aren't any hard clears till GF flips.

Town roleblocker and cop can confirm each other if rb hits cop. Rn and doc can I'm theory but it's only one way. Doc confirms town RB exists but town rb can't confirm doc.

Understand named townie, understand hold 2 innos, kind of understand cop confirming rb, don't understand how a doc can confirm a roleblocker.

Right, doc will know they were rbed is their target dies. But roleblocker won't know they targeted doc because it could just as easily be whichever scum didn't make the kill fake claiming doc. I hope that makes sense.

[RCEnigma]

Cop being roleblocked confirms both roles to each other if the cop outs they were rbed before roleblocker outs their target AND there was a kill the same night.

Scum wouldn't know they were rbed unless the kill was stopped so roleblocker knows of their target correctly claims rbed it was a cop.

[RCEnigma]

Maybe not. The same logic works for SK having a kill blocked and I may have just given them a counterclaim.

I'll work through the logic over my shift but for now claiming rbed is either cop or sk I think....which is still town favorable.

[RCEnigma]

Honestly I'm checking out unfortunately VOTE: jacket

If Three's right hooray, if not we can Speedrun this thing into the ground and move onto a game that doesn't devolve into shitflinging.

[RCEnigma]

RCEnigma, is massclaim a good idea here? Considering the shortened deadline, we should get to it if we're planning to.

Yes, it's MeLo so we lose on a miselim. I mean I'm kinda ready to lose this game already but if you want my input I'll give it.

We do not have a Vig but we do have at least 1 more pr for the town.

SK with roleblocker means we rolled T 1 or 3 times.

I also have a loose order I'd want claims in I think. But I see some merit in massclaiming by role and not by slot.

[RCEnigma]

I just wanna like elim jacket and if we lose we keep it moving.

But I'm out right now so I'll give some attention to the game maybe later tonight.

[RCEnigma]

It's 50/50 since std,looker,Scorpius,jacket contains 2 town but also both scum.

[RCEnigma]

Yes? Unless you're claiming scum here?

[RCEnigma]

Oh I forgot rh9 was a person in this game.

[RCEnigma]

It's 2 scum and a third party. They aren't the same and aren't going about the game the same way. I can't feasibly remove you as possible SK but I can elim your slot as not!scum.

[RCEnigma]

So add rh9 and there's two town in the mix somewhere.

[RCEnigma]

Rh9 makes a lot of sense as SK honestly. It reconciles my issues with his play and the slight townpoints he's shown. Which might just be "nonscum" points instead.

[RCEnigma]

The next posts from {looker/StD/jacket/Scorpius} should be VT/ Not VT claims. Then RH9 and Nathan.

[RCEnigma]

Waiting on std to claim and then Nathan.

[RCEnigma]

i'm not VT did you want my full claim

No.

[RCEnigma]

Actually it doesn't matter, we can only exist in 1 setup with multiple nightplay world's.

StD is conftown regardless.

[RCEnigma]

The setup is DDVMTTT with 2 conftown in myself and StD.

4v2v1

Im fairly certain that SK killed greeting last night and maf struck SK. With their BP down they are at risk of losing tonight.
SK also loses if they shoot town tonight. Scum can't CC SK with two alive because they just lose.

Looker/jacket/Scorpius/rh9/Nathan contains all non town

Looker/jacket/Scorpius likely contains all scum and possibly SK but I'm not quite as sure on the SK.

I'm actually sure that Scorpius is conf!scum at this point and Jacket is the likely partner.

So looker/rh9/Nathan is my SK pool with rh9 being most likely to me.

[RCEnigma]

Mmm who killed greeting is actually kind of important. I could see the teams being either Scorpius + Jacket or Rh9 + Looker.

[RCEnigma]

Has to be a vig because of 3 deaths N1, right?

I said it the way I said it intentionally.

Pre mass claim we lived in a potential world with 2 vigs in the setup, but also 1 with the opportunity for scum to counterclaim a pr.

Example, we could still have been in the setup we are currently in but scum could have claimed full vig and we wouldn't have a conftown outside of myself right now.

[RCEnigma]

Well, only because there was outside potential that all prs -1 shot doc took action (two vig shots +maf kill +SK) against (doc shot)for 4 kills and one doc got a save. And then maf hitting SK the next night with only the full vig getting a kill and 1 shot doc getting a save.

[RCEnigma]

You would have to show me the soft.

[RCEnigma]

Or vig could have holstered and SK hit greeting. I don't think vig is compulsive but I didn't read the rolecard.

[RCEnigma]

Scorpius' flip from scumreading Jacket for lack of involvement of their predecessor to scumreading Jacket all of yesterday all the way up to three's hammer to townreading them today is extremely fishy.

Add jacket fighting for Scorpius when their elim was actually on the table over adse and their is partner equity there for sure.

[RCEnigma]

From your perspective one of jacket/Scorpius/looker has to be scum at the very least. The rest depends on your view of RH9. If you think he is town/SK then BOTH scum have to be in that pool of 3. I think I remember mental logging some anti associatives with looker's slot but I don't remember who's iso I was going through at the time.

[RCEnigma]

The setup is DDVMTTT with 2 conftown in myself and StD.

4v2v1

Im fairly certain that SK killed greeting last night and maf struck SK. With their BP down they are at risk of losing tonight.
SK also loses if they shoot town tonight. Scum can't CC SK with two alive because they just lose.

Looker/jacket/Scorpius/rh9/Nathan contains all non town

Looker/jacket/Scorpius likely contains all scum and possibly SK but I'm not quite as sure on the SK.

I'm actually sure that Scorpius is conf!scum at this point and Jacket is the likely partner.

So looker/rh9/Nathan is my SK pool with rh9 being most likely to me.

Back to the drawing board for you..

I do appreciate your effort. You’re just wrong.

Where did I mess up?

[RCEnigma]

vc

Three (5) [HAMMER]: Jacket, Three, Greeting, Scorpious, Looker

Looker (2): Nathann, Save The Dragons
Jacket (1): RCEnigma

With 9 alive it took 5 to hammer

Three

, with 3 days, 8 hours, and 57 minutes of discussion time remaining.
(expired on 2021-12-26 22:14:02) remains.

Three has been hammered! The twilight timer already passed.

Scorpius let's look at your perspective for a second. What you're putting out is that the scumteam is RH9 + Nathan and the Three wagon is all town. I can assume this since those are your townreads (Looker and Jacket).

That makes 5 town remaining (you, me, StD, Looker, Jacket)
Except there are only 4 town alive.

[RCEnigma]

Thoughts last night were that I might be being overly generous to Nathann and really need to refresh my read there. Still don't think Scorp is likely to be groupscum. If we're in a SK setup (which I think is confirmed now?) he could potentially be SK. Although that statement could easily apply to anyone.

Ok. If Scorpius is SK who do you think he plays toward in this endgame?

[RCEnigma]

I stand right now as RH9 as my SK read and Nathann as maf.

And ??? As other maf

[RCEnigma]

Like ... I thought Scorpius being oblivious was townie earlier... Now it's nai, I think it's just a play thing.

[RCEnigma]

Voting out SK doesn't lose the game so it's fine.

[RCEnigma]

Can you explain this? Because STD is where I want to vote. Is it because of 998? I'm accustomed to fakeclaiming being a thing.

Sure, I'll work from the top, there is a fair bit of setup elimination that has to go on.

Doc +1 shot Doc +IC gives us three of the rolls
DDM + TTTT
If all 4 of the remaining rolls went towards T then we would have no more prs but scum would have 2 goons and a roleblocker. No SK. No vig and no SK is impossible because 3 kills happened night 1.

DDM + ? + TTT

2 goons + roleblocker + SK
Means that outside of myself and flipped prs at least one has to remain in the form of (RB, 2 masons, 1shot vig, 1shot cop) the last roll could be D because 1shot doc flipped and not full doc.

DDM + ?? + TT

Goon +RB +GF, no SK.
Also isn't possible because in order for extra kills night one there would have to be Vigs and 2 rolls in V only gives a full vig or 2 maximum night kills

DDM + ??? + T

Goon +RB +GF, SK
Doesn't fit with everyone except StD claiming VT but does fit the amount of kills on night 1. I could get into the possible combos but it wouldn't matter.

At least 1 pr had to mechanically exist from the knowledge we had of night 1 (3kills) at least a vig had to exist. Massclaim confirmed that ONLY 1 pr exists.

[RCEnigma]

And it would have been more advantageous for STD to claim VT as scum than risk a counterclaim? (I'll have to go through and look at the different roll possibilities later tonight, but thank you for laying it out because...lol)

Well no....there has to be a pr. A PR wouldn't be claiming VT here. STD is the only claimed pr when we know one exists. Ergo they are the only pr.

I hope that was straightforward, I feel like I'm not explaining the process clearly.

[RCEnigma]

I think you guys are putting more stock into Galron spewing Scorpius town than I am. That said I'm fine with flipping jacket today.

[RCEnigma]

Which part of that was Nathan's slip?

[RCEnigma]

There's nothing short of a mechanical guilty that will get me to vote Nathan here. I doubt std votes Scorpius so the elim comes down to looker/jacket.

I'm trying to give leeway for town to reach some of these conclusions but I'm going to have to strongarm the elim it looks like.

Scorpius why is looker more likely scum than jacket? Nathan I'll ask you the inverse.

[RCEnigma]

Std's stance is known, my stances are known. There was an entire day for the two remaining town to move towards a resolution and instead it was spent with a back and forth between the two slots that the confirmed town don't want elimmed here.

SKs interest is to vote against scum. Especially if their BP was struck already but that's only a minor issue compared to losing town majority to scum who have agency with the nightkill.

[RCEnigma]

Everyone has claimed.

[RCEnigma]

It's already been said. It's SKs only chance to pull a win. If town gets elimmed today then SK just loses.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Jacket

@Mod: Can we get a slight extension for the holiday?

[RCEnigma]

Let's cry about it post game jacket VOTE: Looker

Because forcing the 1v1 yesterday with three and then spending the whole day saying not me guys is peak Mafia play but I digress. I've been over this game for awhile.

Go get that win boys.

[RCEnigma]

Wait VOTE: Nathan is what I meant.

[RCEnigma]

nothing good comes of being IC lol. especially if most of your game is reading off interactions and gambits.

i feel bad about semi throwing endgame but i was on tilt.

also feel bad letting that elim go through on three, i knew he was town and should have steered that wagon off a cliff.

gg to all though.