Mini 2251: Triplicate! GAME OVER!

[Amy Dunne]

Titus, since you obviously know House is town in A and you also know that he correctly read you in both FFIV and Stumps, what do you make of his read on you here?

I feel pretty strongly that it's spite driven in A given that his only rationale is my mistake and hammering in one game is not related to another game and that's the only thing he's referenced.

In B, he's said nothing which tells me that he's not even attempting to read my or anyone's content. I have him a hair less likely to be scum than Alyssa/RCE but not by much. Alyssa and RCE not voting is a huge concern and mastina's early reads suggest that as a possibility too, if we're assuming (which I'm not 100% sure of), that mastina's bp was hit.

Spoiler:

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

Did...did they think I was lying about being bulletproof???
Or get concerned I was legit conftown if they nightkilled???

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Regardless, I kinda wanna claim credit for the lack of the kill.

Alright, so I am home, which means I need to do this:

In Game Two, I am

(technically)

a

Bulletproof Survivor

.
It's not quite a normal Survivor wincon; it's

almost

a Town Survivor.
My wincon is to survive to the end of the game with no more than two players who're not members of the Paperwork faction alive. (Is slightly paraphrased here, but obviously, can't do an exact quote without getting modkilled and you'll forgive me for being a bit cautious given that literally the last time I got 3p I did in fact eat a modkill.) I asked the mod and, yes, I count as one of those two.

In other words, per Jingle, if there are three scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose;
If there are two scum alive and they trigger their win condition, I will lose.

I could

technically

win with the scum with only one scum alive, buuuuuuut: at that point, why bother? I'm just going to townside since I need two scum dead anyway, why not make it all three?

Given that I need AT LEAST two scum dead in order to win, and pragmatically speaking probably can get the fastest win just by having all three scum be eliminated, I've been playing as if I was town the entire time. (Because I would anyway because fuck playing 3ps as scum, they are town.)

I should give a full disclaimer/confession tho.
I wasn't really planning on claiming 3p here unless one of two conditions happened.

The reason why is simple;
Mafiascum has a murderboner for third parties.
They see a 3p claim, they see "oh they're not town that means we can just eliminate them!". Even when said 3p is basically town and probably the game was

balanced

around said 3p being treated as town. (As in, 3ps that are benign/benevolent are usually, for balance purposes, meant to be treated as a town PR, meaning that the game will have three groupscum and that the town eliminating the 3p on policy will fuck them over because they are not eliminating scum.)

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be scum, fakeclaiming 3p", in spite of the fact that I never fakeclaim as scum.

I didn't want to deal with the arguments of "mastina could be lying about being benevolent/benign 3p", which, being paranoia-based, I have no real ability to defend against.

I didn't want to deal with lazy town players not bothering to read my claim and thinking "oh survivor = basically 4th scum" in spite of the fact that, no, actually, I cannot in fact scumside because with 3 or 2 scum alive I don't win even if I live.

You know, the arguments: "mastina just admitted to not being town", "mastina isn't town", "mastina could be lying", "mastina might end the game in a solo win", "mastina could be scum fakeclaiming 3p", and such.

Given that I was playing as if I was town, I figured that by virtue of being obvtown due to not being scum and being, well, me, mastina, that I wouldn't need to claim 3p at all if I was just that obviously town anyway. So if I could get away with just pretending I was town, I would do so, and win with the town after eliminating the third scum. The town would never know I was 3p because I was acting as town the entire time, needed two scum dead in order to win anyway, and was working with the town as basically a fullblown town bulletproof which would allow me to relentlessly hunt down and eliminate the scum as if I were town.

With the caveat of the two potential scenarios where I would need to claim.

The first scenario is if someone just directly bluntly to my face asked me, "mastina, are you 3p?". Nobody did directly, but had they, that'd indicate that they would not go murderboner for eliminating claimed 3p and would in fact be willing to work with me. Town players willing to work with someone who basically is already town anyway? Of course I'd claim in a scenario with that, it'd be antitown to not.

The second scenario is what has happened: when

not

claiming would actually

hurt

the town.

CheekyTeeky's result means exactly that. If I pretended to be town when I am not, it could actually lead to a mislim on a player that I knew to be town--and given that I am trying my damnedest to be basically full-townside, I needed to speak up to prevent that and conftown the players who I know to be conftown from the CheekyTeeky result.

However, while I did indeed want to not claim unless one of those two scenarios came up, I did leave an abundantly clear loaf (breadcrumbs but so abundant that they're a full-ass loaf) in my iso where I would let you all know:

Spoiler: I REALLY didn't want to spoiler this because I REALLY wanted y'all to read it all but I ended up quoting enough that I think I need it, sadly

I was expecting to get different alignments from different games but I ended up with basically the same thing in all three games.

"basically the same", but not THE same. Because game #2 I am a survivor, that needs scum dead in a way that makes it basically a Town Survivor, just...not technically town.

Did you roll Scum with House in setup 1 or 2??

I'm not scum at all.

Notice that in response to Almost50, I didn't say "I'm town in all 3 games"; I said "I'm not scum at all". Because I

couldn't

say I was town in all 3 games because technically speaking I'm not even though the type of nontown I am is basically town anyway.

I said I wasn't scum at all because I'm in fact, not scum in any game.

BTW I can doubly prove that I am not scum in all 3 games.

The first proof is that I didn't know that this this game had secret alts or readable pts as a Mechanic.

Because my role pm was just three roles, no account info at all.

The second proof?

I am phoneposting at work.

I work 4//7 days.

With a phone that is glitchy.
It literally keeps spazzing out, proof being: this post.

I can't be any scum accounts which posts while I am at work.

Here is a (I corrected the phone-induced errors of the original) hard-'town'slip. (It's not a townslip because I'm not town but I don't have a better term to use. It's like an anti-scumslip in that it's proof that I cannot be scum, but not proof that I am town.)

Basically, I was at work, posting with the game open for the first time, on my phone.

I saw people referencing secret alts and scum/masons, with them being able to post in a PT. (I was additionally under the impression that said PT(s) were public, readable by people not able to post in it.)

I, mistakenly, believed that to be something that applied to all three games.

As in, game #2 and game #1 would

also

have secret alts for the scumteam.

This is, apparently, not actually the case--which I would know if I had drawn scum in either game 1 or game 2.

But I didn't know that the secret alts were a specific mechanic to game #3 because I drew uninformed in all three games.

Once more, though, you may note the usage: "prove that I am not scum", rather than 'prove that I am town'.
Because, if it was necessary, I wanted to leave it open for the chance for me to claim 3p if need be, if either of the two claim-conditions happened to come true (which the second one did).

What IS the plan here?

Kill all the scum in all the games, get a triple town win.

I didn't say that *I* was town here, I just said that I wanted a triple town win from killing all the scum in all the games. Which is true; I want all the scum dead in all the games and that should generate a triple town win since I can in fact win with the town in spite of technically not being town due to basically still being town.

And it should be painfully obvious that, no, I do not in fact have alt account access. And that, no, I do not have any scumgames here.

I don't have any scumgames here, but I didn't say "I have 3 towngames". (Since again, technically not a towngame even tho it pragmatically speaking is one.)

Phoneposting, so I'll have more to say when home, but:
2:

I an hard counterclaiming bulletproof in game two.

So Meg is scum there, too. I can and will explain when home.
VOTE: MegAzumarill

BTW I should mention in the mini theme, my role has two parts. One part, I'd normally claim on D1, but due to the other half, I cannot. Basically, one half of my role loses utility if I claim either it or the other half, even though I normally would claim it. Phoneposting and this game's not my top priority right now, but I hope to post again later tonight.

Guess what role loses value when claimed? Bulletproof!
The other half is a very specific type of miller tho. I can explain better when not bloody phoneposting from a shitty ass glitchy phone.

I was hoping to draw a night kill in game two from not claiming either the bp or miller (because scum aren't going to shoot a miller), but hey, if Meg is going to out themselves as scum by claiming my role, I'll take dead scum over a failed shot on me.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Well I didn't read that far. I was reading offline and saw Meg claim my role, so I instantly logged in to counterclaim.
Vote stays as I think Meg is still scum even with a retraction of "it a s a joke".

Can explain when home why I think that Meg is scum in game two.
Suffice to say, you can fuck off if you think that I am scum in any of the games.
I'm not.

Mastina feels weird. It's like her posts don't have much depth.

"don't have much depth", my

ass

.

This is literally deeper reads than is physically possible in any other game.

Like, in any other game, you're reading things off of just the one game.

Here I am literally generating reads on

three

different games.

And I am giving reads and reasons for

all

of them.
I don't have the perfect ability to break down

every

game down game by game--but I'm as close as damn fucking possible on D1 of 2/3 of the games.

Reads don't get deeper than that.

In what way do you think they're shallow? Because I can fucking explain each and every single read I've got and surprise surprise! So far, most of my reads have been right in game three! And they are probably right in the other games more than they aren't, because I'm pretty fucking sure that this game's mechanic is the type of thing that I am MADE for solving. That I EXCEL at figuring out.

I'm also literally putting in more effort here than I've ever put into a game before--my

intention

was to draw the scum nightkill in game two, but failing that, I can still be nightkilled in game one, because I am being just that town. And yet, the scum can't actually shut me up, because I can't die in game two. Which is why I felt extra incentivized to try hard here. I can't die in game two, meaning that I can't TRULY die in ANY of the games, meaning that scum cannot get rid of me. (Well, barring a scum strongman in game two, which if it exists...shit. Hopefully not tho. )

So you can fuck off with calling my reads lacking depth--they have more depth in

this

game than they have

ever

had in ANY prior game of mine.

mastina is town in precisely 2/3 games.

Do you think that because you are scum in 2/3 and town in the third and thus you know me to be town in the two you are scum and are guessing the inverse for the game you aren't scum?

'Cause that's what this looks like to me!

I am a

Bulletproof (other words I didn't read)

In Game B
I am 100% serious.

For the record--this is what I saw before I stopped reading on my phone to log in. I didn't even read the entirety of the claim.

I just saw 'bulletproof' and '100% serious' and INSTANTLY scrolled up to hit the login button to counterclaim because there was no fucking chance in hell of there being two bulletproofs in a mini game in my opinion.

Even with it apparently being a joke, I think that Meg's scum

anyway

. There's multiple reasons for this. I've not read the game thread yet so not sure how the "it was a joke" came up, but. I don't think it was actually meant as a joke. I think that Meg was genuinely trying to get away with it, but decided to change it to a joke later.

I think that the claim was made with scum knowledge about the setup in setup #2 because of the things being claimed.

I think that Meg's claim was designed to get reactions--in hindsight, I shouldn't have claimed because it got the reaction it was looking for (I could've pushed Meg without claiming so probably should've but oh well, is too late now, hindsight 20/20), but I think that the claim was made basically as a way of testing the waters and seeing if Meg could fish out extra information about the town in game #2.

I genuinely think that the claim

came from a position of both scum information

, and scum agenda, in that it was designed to try and further the scum wincon in game #2.

Here, it takes some explaining, but: basically, I saw MegAzumarill claim a third party and claim bulletproof and my thought instantly jumped to, "MegAzumarill is scum in game #2 who has TMI" and was thus not joking.

I was in fact planning to draw nightkills in game #2 (again, being bulletproof and being basically a town survivor that needs scum dead, drawing scum kills to me is a GOOD thing because they couldn't kill me and it'd put the town in a better position). However, I saw MegAzumarill's claim as hard proof that Meg was informed scum in game #2.

You may notice again: "I'm not scum in any of the games". I'm in fact not scum in any of the games! But I didn't say town in all of them because while I might be basically-town in game #2 I am technically not town.

There was in fact depth to my reads tho because I was dead serious in all of them. I, again, was attempting to get

nightkilled

in game #2. As a bulletproof, who needs scum dead in order to win, I needed to be playing as if I was town and furthering the town wincon. Meaning that I needed to be as town as I've ever been before, townier than that in fact.

I do think that Ircher also TMI'd tho--Ircher said, "mastina is town in precisely 2/3 of the games". That was in fact right. But why those words instead of "mastina is scum in 1/3 of the games"? It feels like Ircher was saying exactly what he meant to say because he knew it'd be exactly the truth. He can point to 418 and say he was 100% correct--but him being 100% correct is actually

the problem

. He

shouldn't

have had any inkling of me being non-town-but-not-scum in game #2. Because again, I was powertowning, more than I've ever towned before.

Please explain to the class why a TOWN PLAYER IN GAME THREE would "intend" to tell the scum they are not a Mason??

As part of clearing me across all three games.

So basically.

I did not know about the mechanics in game #3 of there being secret alts on masons and mafias.

I thus also did not know that the mechanic was specific to

game three

.

I was on my phone at the time, so I couldn't delve into checking things more closely.

So I assumed that I, via not being scum in any of the games, had missed a core game mechanic where

every

scum/mason in

every

game had a secret alt and a public PT to talk in.

Under that assumption, I could clear myself as being not scum in any of the three games by specifying that I did not receive any alt account info or PT links in my role PMs. The process would, unfortunately, out me as not a mason in game #3...but the process would

also

conftown me across all three games, and conftowning myself across all three games is something I valued more than the chance of scum shooting me wrongly as a mason in game #3.

Now, granted. Apparently, that assumption was wrong. There are not scum alt accounts for each game with a public scum PT in each of the games. But on my phone at the time, I had no way of

knowing

it was wrong.

This is me explaining the townslip (well, slip of not being scum) further, but note again that I used 'not scum in any game', because I am in fact: not scum in any game!

Mega's claim there is very scummy for both games if that's what you're basing this off of

I think Meg implied that their claim was not serious

Having seen that it was implied and not actually explicitly stated, I am again reminding you that Meg is like 200% scum in game #2.

Again, I thought that Meg was TMI'ing in game #2 with the claim and was trying to bait me out.

They didn't even claim to be town in Game B so the rush to counterclaim is weird

Look I saw 'bulletproof', 'game 2', and '100% serious' (those words specifically, and nothing else in the post), and instantly saw red.

As in, MegAzumarill being red.

So given that I had a very limited amount of time and my phone makes posting the most frustrating borderline-impossible-yet-I-still-try thing in the world, I wasn't going to wait; I was going to make it clear that Meg was full of shit.

um. meg said it was a joke claim.

Having read Meg's posts?

Didn't happen. Not explicitly.

And the way it hasn't happened is explicitly part of the problem.

It doesn't matter even if MegAzumarill chimes in now and goes "Um, yeah, I was obviously joking?" explicitly--the drawn out way of implying it wasn't serious combined with my feelings on Meg's claim in general means that Meg is scum in game #2 anyway.

Btw since I am now home, I

can

fullclaim.
In Game #2, I'm an Activated Combined Bulletproof Miller (it's not called that in my role PM, but that's what the role boils down to being in effect, can paraphrase the flavor if people

really

want me to).
As in, I can activate a Bulletproof every single night; if I do so, I become a Miller that night.
The Miller though specifies that I do not appear as town to an alignment investigation. Meaning that I

should

be a Miller to precisely one role and would appear town to all others.
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't

think

it does);
You get the idea.

I can't become

conftown

in game #2 while using the bulletproof, which I assume is to prevent someone from doing follow the cop and making me an invincible conftown in game #2.

But it shouldn't be an issue--I am pretty damn obviously town anyway, so like. While I can't become

conftown

while using the BP, I

can

become

basically

conftown. (And if you doubt me, you can in fact use those other roles to investigate me and confirm me, altho it would explicitly be a waste. I am painfully obviously town here so like. Your actions are better used in

actually

narrowing down who the scum are.)

I

wanted

to claim the Miller initially, but I couldn't do so without making the Bulletproof worthless. Scum aren't going to shoot a Miller because towns usually policy-eliminate Millers before lylo given that Millers cannot be confirmed as town. I figured that it wouldn't be an issue given that I should show as a guilty to specifically one and ONLY one role and not a guilty to literally all others, and because I am pretty damn obviously town.

Claiming the bulletproof on D1 when I wasn't intending to is a bit unfortunate, but I'll take a free dead scum in game #2 over the

possibility

(not guarantee) of being shot N1 in game #2.

Here I again explain why I thought that Meg TMI'd as being scum in game #2.

Beyond that, I laid out a modified version of my trueclaim.

I am not actually a miller, obviously.
But what I said there remains true:
I should appear as "not scum" to an alignment cop who receives results in the form of "scum/not scum";
I should appear as "does not have a gun" to a gunsmith;
I should appear as "cannot kill" to a psychiatrist;
I should appear as "has not killed" to a detective;
I should not show as visiting anyone to a tracker (maybe maybe MAYBE self-visiting, depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does);
I should not show as visiting anyone to a follower (maybe maybe MAYBE 'protective', depending on whether the Activation counts, but I don't think it does).

All of those remain true because they are all actually true--I'm still basically town here. I show as the town result to almost every investigation, I'm not groupscum, I require scum to be dead in order to win, for all intents and purposes, I'm basically just town. Just, technically am not town due to technically not being town.

These are the only two posts I believe where Mastina talks about being bp and nowhere does she mention anything specifically about being hit.

[Amy Dunne]

No One has died in the Mini Theme!

Did...did they think I was lying about being bulletproof???
Or get concerned I was legit conftown if they nightkilled???

(On that note: House is conftown for not having shown up btw.)

Regardless, I kinda wanna claim credit for the lack of the kill.

Oh I missed this post but no mention of bp being hit, so I don’t know where Titus is getting that from.

[Amy Dunne]

I did NOT say it isn't considered in the result. I said it doesn't have an alignment.

Please read literally any of my posts where I talk about the results and you'll notice that I am in fact counting the Demon Lord.

Then your analysis makes very little sense to me and if I say I still don’t understand how you have me/Dunn and Alyssa/House linked, you will once again claim to find that conerning or whatever. Whenever ANYONE links me up with another player in any game ever, when that linking makes zero sense to me, I always auto mistrust it. Why? because I know I’m flipping town but both you and Titus are arguing that despite me totally not understanding any of this, I should be confisvumming Dunn based on this. I have independent reasons to think he could possibly be scum in either or both games but this 100% isn’t fucking it, so for anyone to argue the contrary is clearly misconstruing my posting. I can only solvr based on what I understand, which clearly isn’t this, so you and Titus can please stop putting words in my mouth. Please and thank you.

[Amy Dunne]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

And?

Yout solve in A is what exactly? Tell me who are the scum in A.

[Amy Dunne]

Going to read up but Cheeky town. I’m willing to bet the damn game on that so naysayers can bite me. I had doubts because she is one of the players who had motive to want RCE dead but do do Dunn, T3 and A50 and only one of those needs to be scum but I haven’t yet seen one false not from Cheeky this entire game and if she’s fooling me, I’m nomming her for a scummy because I don’t think so. Chloe you really need to trust me on this. My strong gut town reads are 80+% accurate and gut really scum reads approximately 70-75%. So far the only really strong gut scumread I had was House in game C which we all know turned out to be right.

[Amy Dunne]

Yeah, so I was a Universal Backup, and I'm Cheeky now.

Dwlee wagon once again has 4 alignment changes. Before and after Demon Lord accounts for two, and mastina's hammer for three. So that's one change unaccounted for.

Dwlee99 (E-0):

Amy Dunne, Lady Chloe,

Demon Lord

, Dunnstral, T3, mastina,

If RR town, 4 changes

Just saw this. DL is unaligned so counts as 2 changes. Mastina counts as 1 change. Either T3 is a different alignment from me, or Amy is a different alignment from Lady Chloe.

I think RR is lying though. The DL vote went from automatically being the first vote on the wagon regardless of vote time to being in the middle of the pack like a normal vote. This happened after Cheeky died. Or maybe the mod is just inconsistent?

Dunn, if you think he’s lying then you should also think his role is fake too because otherwise I don’t understand this?

[Amy Dunne]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

And?

Yout solve in A is what exactly? Tell me who are the scum in A.

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Leaning towards Dwlee because of T3's claim

Is there anyone alive in A other than of course Cheeky who isn’t pushing Cheeky? Maybe not Dunn but if pretty much everyone in A has Cheeky in their solve and -

even more importantly

, she really isn’t pushing anyone - when she isn’t doing anything remotely scummy - what does that tell you?

Cheeky isn’t aligned with anyone.

[Amy Dunne]

I did NOT say it isn't considered in the result. I said it doesn't have an alignment.

Please read literally any of my posts where I talk about the results and you'll notice that I am in fact counting the Demon Lord.

Then your analysis makes very little sense to me and if I say I still don’t understand how you have me/Dunn and Alyssa/House linked, you will once again claim to find that conerning or whatever. Whenever ANYONE links me up with another player in any game ever, when that linking makes zero sense to me, I always auto mistrust it. Why? because I know I’m flipping town but both you and Titus are arguing that despite me totally not understanding any of this, I should be confisvumming Dunn based on this. I have independent reasons to think he could possibly be scum in either or both games but this 100% isn’t fucking it, so for anyone to argue the contrary is clearly misconstruing my posting. I can only solvr based on what I understand, which clearly isn’t this, so you and Titus can please stop putting words in my mouth. Please and thank you.

You > Chloe > Demon Lord > Dunnstral > T3 > mastina is a sequence with four alignment changes. Demon Lord is neither Town nor Scum on its own, so there will be one change before and one change after no matter what. mastina is third party, so the same applies, but as the hammer vote no one voted after her, so only one change there.

You <?> Chloe <1> Demon Lord <2> Dunnstral <?> T3 <3> mastina.

T3 is mechanically confirmed Town as long as I'm Town. Chloe already flipped Town. Both potential changes are from an unknown player to a Town slot. So either you or Dunnstral MUST be an alignment that isn't Town. But you can't BOTH be, because that would be too many changes.

If you still don't understand it, then I'm sorry but I don't know how else to explain it.

I understand Chloe is town but that’s pretty much it. I’m going to tell you what I told Mastina earlier, I have my own way of sorting and making reads and I don’t trust anything unless I understand it, which I still don’t. I know I’m town so it two of Dunn/Alyssa/House isn’t, I might re-evaluate despite thinking this doesn’t make any sense to me. But that’s as far as I’m willing to go wrt to this. I will continue to solve by play here and I will always put the most stock in that. The basic difference between this and what Mastina posted was that PoE is actually something I do understand and believe in, I just took issue with her “X should be confiscum to you” part. But otherwise PoE is valid. Like if RCE had been presumably been able to block a kill with his jk, it would be extremely stupid to ignore that.

[Amy Dunne]

Part of the problem here is we have too many slots basically not participating.

Dunn and Cheeky in game A just got prodded. Feels like scum trying to get us to rip our own throats out.

Alyssa has done zilch since I arrived. House isn't solving either but bitching due to an accident. Only one of them can be scum in B though. So we need to do something to get the town one to contribute.

Are you seriously kidding me with this? I can see arguments that being prodded can mean scum lurking or possibly giving up but getting prodded as an actual strategy? Name even one single game where that has ever happened?

Also Cheeky wasn’t ellitelling and I’ll check Dunn to see if that was true for him as well. Not ellitelling isn’t clearing obviously but it’s definitely not scum indicative.

[Amy Dunne]

Part of the problem here is we have too many slots basically not participating.

Dunn and Cheeky in game A just got prodded. Feels like scum trying to get us to rip our own throats out.

Alyssa has done zilch since I arrived. House isn't solving either but bitching due to an accident. Only one of them can be scum in B though. So we need to do something to get the town one to contribute.

Are you seriously kidding me with this? I can see arguments that being prodded can mean scum lurking or possibly giving up but getting prodded as an actual strategy? Name even one single game where that has ever happened?

Also Cheeky wasn’t ellitelling and I’ll check Dunn to see if that was true for him as well. Not ellitelling isn’t clearing obviously but it’s definitely not scum indicative.

Ftr, Dunn was also not ellitelling, so I already explained why I think Cheeky is town but if Dunn is scum in either/both games, it’s not for this.

[Amy Dunne]

I'm not bitching, just stating a plain fact.

You're scum in A. *shrug*

Where's your hunting in their game?

I don't care about B. Just like I didn't care about C.

Just like I didn't care about A until you obvscummed.

I'm not bitching, just stating a plain fact.

You're scum in A. *shrug*

Where's your hunting in their game?

I don't care about B. Just like I didn't care about C.

Just like I didn't care about A until you obvscummed.

You were scum in C. If you don't care about B "just like" C, then you're scum claiming in B.

As for A, you're just being bitter.

It's rather frustrating too given our record. If you'd talk to engage me in A, you'd see that I'm town that made a mistake.

If I am misinterpreting you, why join games you don't care to play?

Titus, I really think it’s beyond freaking obvious that House actually does think you’re scum in A. As flipped town on A, why do you autoassume that he’s sr you based off of emotional reasons?

[Amy Dunne]

Idk what you're expecting me to do when Game A is waiting on claims and Game B is knee deep in setup nonsense

Give me your current opinion without the claims. I think it's just Cheeky left.

In B, you can read people based off their play.

Give me something. Anything.

I did give you something

I don't think this mech solve in B is valid and that RR is the most likely scum slot in the game, likely with Dunn.

I don't feel like pushing it because the nature of his claim makes it impossible.

So really I'm just waiting until people decide on what they're going to decide on so we can get back to the game that actually matters right now

So which one would you flip first then? Dunn?

[Amy Dunne]

Do we have any basis for Dunnstral's extra vote being unaligned other than him saying that he messaged the mod?

Because that is exactly the type of role I would expect scum to have to fuck with Cheeky's role

Well what’s bugging me the most about Dunn in B is that he voted Meg with DL but kept his main offwagon. Why did he do that? Dunn, if you read this, I’d like an answer please.

Dunn, did you not see this post?

[Amy Dunne]

I think we need to hear from T3 about why he fakeclaimed and why he hammered.

T3's desire to avoid questions and then comes out with a suspicious claim may be a stall tactic.

The question I was avoiding is why I thought Dunn was town.
I thought Dunn was town because of my night action result (and it would be suboptimal to claim it yesterday instead of today), so this point is wrong.

It's pretty odd that all the people you checked are still alive ngl.

Well he just claimed today right, so I don’t see why that means anything?

[Amy Dunne]

It's rather frustrating too given our record. If you'd talk to engage me in A, you'd see that I'm town that made a mistake.

Throwing down a vote on me without so much as a hello to get the feel of a personal interaction to base your* read on was not "a mistake".

There was no attempt whatsoever to actually sort me.

That's not bitterness. It's prima facie evidence. Can you refute* it? Yes. Have you? As of yet, nope.

Fucking edit.

x2

I’m again going to say again, that this is a real read because he’s asking Titus to explain it.

[Amy Dunne]

Right so I can't explain until home from work, but basically, in game 1, T3 is confirmed as town with every player claiming VT.

More than that, it's highly likely that the scumteam has 2-3 rolecops, probably 2, and that T3's results are designed to function a lot like a cop but with the potential for them to have what amounts to a scum godfather in the bunch if it's only 2 scum rolecops.

I'll explain why when home.

Really? You think there could be more than one? Idk about that. We already have a flipped tracker and jk. If there is actually more than one rolecop then town is ridiculously stacked in game A, don’t you think?

Why would scum even have more than 1 of the same pr roles anyway. Is that even possible for a normal?

[Amy Dunne]

I think house is getting more obv scum in B like he'd rather tunnel Titus than figure out what's going on in the game he's in. I don't think the A50 slot is ever scum and I'm sad he repped out because I don't think Titus can read me for shir, no offense.

Well I don’t know why House isn’t trying to solve B but he isn’t acting like C either. Like when he threw down that extremely scummy vote on me in C. But here’s the thing, we know that he’s town in A, so you’d have to argue that even if House is scum in B, he’s fine with losing A and I just don’t see House whatever he is in B, intentionally gamethrowing A out of “spite” or any other reason.

[Amy Dunne]

Titus, I really think it’s beyond freaking obvious that House actually does think you’re scum in A. As flipped town on A, why do you autoassume that he’s sr you based off of emotional reasons?

Because I literally just beat him in a hotly contested game and I made a mistake here. Emotions color reads thoughts and feelings. We are not logical creatures. House's steadfast refusal to discuss anything else suggests bias is at play and I can't engage someone who steadfastly refuses. So I ignore his bias and scumhunt.

That’s possible but I still think he believes his read on you. I believe that more than that he’s throwing A to win B at any rate.

[Amy Dunne]

I think we need to hear from T3 about why he fakeclaimed and why he hammered.

T3's desire to avoid questions and then comes out with a suspicious claim may be a stall tactic.

The question I was avoiding is why I thought Dunn was town.
I thought Dunn was town because of my night action result (and it would be suboptimal to claim it yesterday instead of today), so this point is wrong.

It's pretty odd that all the people you checked are still alive ngl.

Well he just claimed today right, so I don’t see why that means anything?

It's pretty convenient that we're at elo and T3 has a claim that if true soft clears people that are all still living. Its an insanely genius strat at Elo. Since Mastina as an NRG reviewer seems to think the claim confirms him as town I can shelf it as moonlogic but I think that's the nom for scum right there if I'm on to something.

This was probably already explained but what is “NGR” again? It’s possible? Because if you, Chloe, Titus and Dwelee are all town, than that would make absolute sense. The fact is that there is zero evidence that scum even have a role cop. Only tpr dead in A by NK was RCE on n1 and Meg was limmed on d1. So why hasn’t scum in A NK’d a single tpr after n1? I think you could very possibly be on to something with that. Also T3 is one of the players who definitely would kill RCE first.

[Amy Dunne]

I think we need to hear from T3 about why he fakeclaimed and why he hammered.

T3's desire to avoid questions and then comes out with a suspicious claim may be a stall tactic.

The question I was avoiding is why I thought Dunn was town.
I thought Dunn was town because of my night action result (and it would be suboptimal to claim it yesterday instead of today), so this point is wrong.

It's pretty odd that all the people you checked are still alive ngl.

Well he just claimed today right, so I don’t see why that means anything?

It's pretty convenient that we're at elo and T3 has a claim that if true soft clears people that are all still living. Its an insanely genius strat at Elo. Since Mastina as an NRG reviewer seems to think the claim confirms him as town I can shelf it as moonlogic but I think that's the nom for scum right there if I'm on to something.

This was probably already explained but what is “NGR” again? It’s possible? Because if you, Chloe, Titus and Dwelee are all town, than that would make absolute sense. The fact is that there is zero evidence that scum even have a role cop. Only tpr dead in A by NK was RCE on n1 and Meg was limmed on d1. So why hasn’t scum in A NK’d a single tpr after n1? I think you could very possibly be on to something with that. Also T3 is one of the players who definitely would kill RCE first.

Also I’ll say it again, why in the actual fuck does T3 check Chloe?

My working theory is that scum in A are: Dunn/RR/T3. I think Cheeky, Chloe, Titus and Dwelee are all town.

[Amy Dunne]

Hey Titus, Who are the scum in A? We’re at freaking elo in A, so why are you are you paying attention almost exclusively to B when one wrong vote could hand scum the game?

It's a generic scum tell.

She's focused on solving B because she doesn't HAVE to solve A.

Well you’d think she’d be interested in in both but especially A. Once RR claimed ub, both

them

anf Titus have mainly been focused on B. Meanwhile me, Chloe and Mastina are primarily concerned with A. Actually Chloe is with both. However me and Mastina are dead in A, so that might partially account for that.

I am very much concerned about A. However, while we wait on claims nothing's really happening there. I've already claimed, I've given my thoughts on the potential solves, but there's not really anything else to say there unless you have a specific question.

Meanwhile there has been a lot of confusion and specific questions in B. It's not that I don't care about A, and I have consistently said we need to settle A before we move on to voting in B. It's just that B actually has active conversations happening.

And?

Yout solve in A is what exactly? Tell me who are the scum in A.

Either T3/Dunn/Cheeky or Dwlee/Dunn/Cheeky. Leaning towards Dwlee because of T3's claim

Is there anyone alive in A other than of course Cheeky who isn’t pushing Cheeky? Maybe not Dunn but if pretty much everyone in A has Cheeky in their solve and -

even more importantly

, she really isn’t pushing anyone - when she isn’t doing anything remotely scummy - what does that tell you?

Cheeky isn’t aligned with anyone.

I don't really scumread her on her own either, but I don't think Dwlee/T3 is a universe that exists, and out of Titus/Chloe/Cheeky, she's the weakest townread.

So, I know you think I'm scum right now, but supposing Jingle descends from Mod Heaven and informs you directly that I'm Town, who do you think is scum?

So why do you believe T3’s claim more than Dwelee’s then? As Cheeky already pointed out, all of T3’s checks are still alive yet scum kills me and Mastina here with an actual role cop here? So, according to T3, he’s RC finder when we already have a freaking flipped jk and tracker - NEITHER one due to any possible RC finder check. His checks are obvtown!Chloe, obvscum!Dunn and Dwelee - probably town because claim but despite scum supposedly having this RC finder, all of these are still alive? Why am I dead but not Chloe? I have real doubts that’s just a coincidence. Also, alleged Chloe check pinged the fuck out of me.

Also I could see scum!you pushing Mastina as scum, in order to look clear. Another factor not in your favor is ignoring what I said about Cheeky not looking aligned with ANYONE. Why ignore that?

Also, there are extremely suspicious associatives between you/Dunn/T3 and none with anyone else alive in A, so that’s my solve.

I just don’t think any of Cheeky, Chloe, Titus, Dwelee are more likely to be scum than you three.

[Amy Dunne]

If my solve in A is wrong, it’s more likely to be on you rather than Dunn/T3.

[Amy Dunne]

I don't think house is scum in A obviously, I think he's probably scum in B. I am getting a bit paranoid about Titus in A because I use houses' read of Titus as a soul read in other games, I'm hesitant because I'm pretty confident that slot is town in all games.

House has been wrong on me before. He townread me initially in Lemon Demon very strongly and shifted later to be correct.

That's why I feel like he would come around if forced.

Strange way to talk about someone you think is scum.

I don't think you're scum in A.

I think you or Alyssa is scum in B.

What? Titus, you KNOW he’s not scum in A, he’s fucking dead. lololol

[Amy Dunne]

I'm not close to "obv scum" in game A. I've told you to go after the group who happily pushed out multiple townies.

So who is then? You/T3/RR all have weird associatives, especially you and T3.

[Amy Dunne]

VOTE: Titus

???

Is this for both games?

[Amy Dunne]

I have nothing to contribute and I want to vote Dunn.

I believe T3's claim because this is the first time I've ever heard of a specific Rolecop Finder, and it just seems like an incredibly weird thing for a scum claim with no real direct benefit since Not Rolecop doesn't mean anything on alignment.

If it were fake, I'd expect a slightly stronger inno, or perhaps a fake guilty to easily win Elo.


And yeah, you're right that Cheeky has no obvious associatives with anyone. I don't have a refutation there other than neither does anyone else.

So, who do you think I’m wrongly tr in A then? I knew right away who Cheeky’s buddy was in ELSM C because Cheeky made it beyond obvious, so yet another point for town!Cheeky here.

[Amy Dunne]

We're too far in to pretend to not know the voting mechanics, don't you think?

Scum in game A are Titus, Amy, and then 1 more from the group who heavily pushed miselims and won't look inwards

Amy is dead town in game A

So why are you voting Titus in B then?

lolololol not buying this dumbtell.

[Amy Dunne]

Scum in game A are Titus, Amy, and then 1 more from the group who heavily pushed miselims and won't look inwards

Amy is dead town in game A

Agreed. I'm also curious as who he defines in this latter group, given his "accidental" Amy FoS.

Dunn is tilted that I caught him so he wants to kill me twice apparently.

[Amy Dunne]

We're too far in to pretend to not know the voting mechanics, don't you think?

Scum in game A are Titus, Amy, and then 1 more from the group who heavily pushed miselims and won't look inwards

[Amy Dunne]

Yes Dunn, I killed myself in game A. lmfaoooo

[Amy Dunne]

We're too far in to pretend to not know the voting mechanics, don't you think?

Scum in game A are Titus, Amy, and then 1 more from the group who heavily pushed miselims and won't look inwards

Amy is dead town in game A

So why are you voting Titus in B then?

lolololol not buying this dumbtell.

We're too far in to pretend to not know the voting mechanics, don't you think?

This is the second question I’ve asked that you’ve failed to answer. No, make that three:

Why did you vote Meg with DL onwagon but have your main account as “not voting”?
Why are you voting Titus in B?
Who is scum in A other than Titus and of course dead me?

[Amy Dunne]

@Amy, Any vote in one is a vote in the other...

He can't just vote me in A...

Right but he never answered my question. If he thinks you’re scum only in A, why does he not have an opinion about B?

[Amy Dunne]

@Amy, Any vote in one is a vote in the other...

He can't just vote me in A...

Right but he never answered my question. If he thinks you’re scum only in A, why does he not have an opinion about B?

Because her action was in A

Do you believe Dunn dumbtells by thinking I’m buddies with Titus?

[Amy Dunne]

I'm legit not voting and being blamed for the loss today. I can see both worlds and I don't want to be wrong, sorry not sorry. If mastina can explain a bit more about T3 being confirmed town I'll sheep him and then he can cop it (pun intended).

For now if everyone in game A could post something then I think that indicates there's confirmed scum in Dunn/Titus.

I’m right on Cheeky, so that much I can continue to feel good about.

[Amy Dunne]

Ircher has (mostly) agreed with mastina regarding T3's claim, but points out that Flavor Leaf reviewed this game and is apparently less strict on balancing than other reviewers, and so he wouldn't be surprised if it's just three goons and no Rolecop on the scumteam.

In game a I'm in a neighborhood with T3
Dwlee, RR, RCEnigma, House, Ircher

Ircher is still able to post and thinks that there are a lot of scum in the neighborhood due to low post count

I want Dwelee, Alyssa, House to verify this.

I don’t believe Jingle has a game with a flipped tracker, jk and and three goons.

[Amy Dunne]

Okay, I just found it pretty much inconceivable that any mod would have three goons in any non-mountainous game.

[Amy Dunne]

But there are 4 people in my list

If I remove LC that means 3 and there are 3 scum?

If you, T3 and Cheeky are town, that leaves only one more town spot.

I’d be heartbroken if Chloe was scum again because that would mean she pocketed me in two games back to back.

House, do you still think it’s Titus?

I know Dunn has a major bussing meta, so it wouldn’t completely shock me if Dunn/Titus were SvS.

Chloe why has your posting suddenly fallen off?

[Amy Dunne]

Game A is so hard ugh

It is not

Okay, tell us who’s scum then.

[Amy Dunne]

I know Dunn has a major bussing meta,

I think you are making things up

No, I’ve seen you do that in several games where you were scum.

[Amy Dunne]

Game A is so hard ugh

It is not

Okay, tell us who’s scum then.

I've told you where to look

Names, I want names. You only so far mentioned Titus and myself which you know is impossible, so who else?

[Amy Dunne]

Mostly a prodge while I wait on either T3 or a dead slot to vote, but I do think the lack of quickhammer so far means Titus and Dunnstral can't both be Town, or we'd have already lost. I don't think anyone is, but if you're townreading them both, please reconsider that.

Do you not have an opinion beyond both can’t be town? Which one of them do you think is town and which one scum?

Dead slots can’t vote.

[Amy Dunne]

Why isn't Dunn being prodded? O_o

It’s been under 48 hrs.

[Amy Dunne]

Then we go RR --> Lady?

I think Dunn/RR + one deep wolf? Rn, lean Chloe rn just because she’s not doing much rn but still could possibly be wrong on that.

How much should we possibly be factoring T3 results here, since we know that Dwelee/Chloe/Dunn can’t be RC? Or is that irrelevant atp since we have two tprs dead and another claimed?

So if we factor in T3 results, should we be going for a slot who is greater > chance of being scum + rc? If T3’s claim is legit, then we obviously know that at least one of the vanilla claims obviously has to be false.

[Amy Dunne]

Titus is still scum in A.

Just FYI.

Good luck.

For the record, I won't put much stock into this opinion if Dunn flips scum, but I'll acknowledge that there's at least a reasonable chance that you're right--but in said situation, Dunn is town and we just lose. (Which is why I preferred RR first. Dunn is PROBABLY scum, but RR in game 1 is basically CERTAINLY scum.)

So I guess we'll be finding out shortly. We lose, you were right; game continues, you were probably wrong.

Should we switch to RR then? Oh it’s too late anyway.

@Chloe how do you read me here?

[Amy Dunne]

Oh, also, RCE kill was because he absolutely did soft PR, but apparently only A50 noticed.

A50 youre putting me between a rock and a hard place. I literally cannot defend without hurting town inside and outside of the open setup. If I go down here I'd look at my votes as likely red in more than 1 setup.

If he was vanilla all around, there'd be no issue here, which A50 noticed and suggested the kill for.

So why did I die then? I’m also not going to listen to flipped scum, sorry.

[Amy Dunne]

Oh, also, RCE kill was because he absolutely did soft PR, but apparently only A50 noticed.

A50 youre putting me between a rock and a hard place. I literally cannot defend without hurting town inside and outside of the open setup. If I go down here I'd look at my votes as likely red in more than 1 setup.

If he was vanilla all around, there'd be no issue here, which A50 noticed and suggested the kill for.

So why did I die then? I’m also not going to listen to flipped scum, sorry.

Cheeky thought you dying implicated Lady/House, and I figured since you were hard defending me it'd make it look like it wasn't me.

Nah, I thought it probably implicated Titus.

[Amy Dunne]

That's also why I'm voting Amy right now, because their read was clearly fake, I was just wrong about which game they were playing towards.

How was it fake Dunn? We were all clearly fooled, well except obviously House but Mastina isn’t wrong, that game was scumsided as fuck.

I feel bad that I doubted Chloe though. :/. I was just paranoing on her because of last game, turns out Cheeky was the one who duped me this time.

I had doubts on you and wanted to to lim RR but they all had bloodlust for you. Next time House tells me Titus is scum, I’m not ignoring it.

[Amy Dunne]

Vote Count Theme.3.09

Dunnstral (E-3):

mastina, Titus, T3, House,

Amy Dunne(E-4):

Dunnstral,

House (E-4):

Demon Lord

Titus (E-5):

T3 (E-5):

Radical Rat (E-5):

mastina (E-5):

Alyssa the Lamb(E-5):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (3):

Alyssa the Lamb, Amy Dunne, Radical Rat,

With 8 alive, it takes

5

to murder/death/kill or

4

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2021-12-24 02:00:00).

Dunn. shouldn’t DL vote be on me? Why do you have it on House?

[Amy Dunne]

That's also why I'm voting Amy right now, because their read was clearly fake, I was just wrong about which game they were playing towards.

How was it fake Dunn? We were all clearly fooled, well except obviously House but Mastina isn’t wrong, that game was scumsided as fuck.

I feel bad that I doubted Chloe though. :/. I was just paranoing on her because of last game, turns out Cheeky was the one who duped me this time.

I had doubts on you and wanted to to lim RR but they all had bloodlust for you. Next time House tells me Titus is scum, I’m not ignoring it.

Vote Count Theme.3.09

Dunnstral (E-3):

mastina, Titus, T3, House,

Amy Dunne(E-4):

Dunnstral,

House (E-4):

Demon Lord

Titus (E-5):

T3 (E-5):

Radical Rat (E-5):

mastina (E-5):

Alyssa the Lamb(E-5):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (3):

Alyssa the Lamb, Amy Dunne, Radical Rat,

With 8 alive, it takes

5

to murder/death/kill or

4

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2021-12-24 02:00:00).

Dunn. shouldn’t DL vote be on me? Why do you have it on House?

Did you ever answer these Dunn?

[Amy Dunne]

Vote Count Theme.3.09

Dunnstral (E-1):

mastina, Titus, T3, House,

Amy Dunne(E-4):

Dunnstral,

House (E-4):

Demon Lord

Titus (E-5):

T3 (E-5):

Radical Rat (E-5):

mastina (E-5):

Alyssa the Lamb(E-5):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (3):

Alyssa the Lamb, Amy Dunne, Radical Rat,

With 8 alive, it takes

5

to murder/death/kill or

4

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2021-12-24 02:00:00).

[Amy Dunne]

Amy needs to hammer Dunn

Why not Alyssa or RR?

[Amy Dunne]

That's also why I'm voting Amy right now, because their read was clearly fake, I was just wrong about which game they were playing towards.

How was it fake Dunn? We were all clearly fooled, well except obviously House but Mastina isn’t wrong, that game was scumsided as fuck.

I feel bad that I doubted Chloe though. :/. I was just paranoing on her because of last game, turns out Cheeky was the one who duped me this time.

I had doubts on you and wanted to to lim RR but they all had bloodlust for you. Next time House tells me Titus is scum, I’m not ignoring it.

Vote Count Theme.3.09

Dunnstral (E-3):

mastina, Titus, T3, House,

Amy Dunne(E-4):

Dunnstral,

House (E-4):

Demon Lord

Titus (E-5):

T3 (E-5):

Radical Rat (E-5):

mastina (E-5):

Alyssa the Lamb(E-5):

No Elim (0):

Not Voting (3):

Alyssa the Lamb, Amy Dunne, Radical Rat,

With 8 alive, it takes

5

to murder/death/kill or

4

to choose not to.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2021-12-24 02:00:00).

Dunn. shouldn’t DL vote be on me? Why do you have it on House?

Did you ever answer these Dunn?

If Dunn doesn’t respond to this, I will.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy needs to hammer Dunn

Why not Alyssa or RR?

By having you end the wagon, my result, if I get one, should double confirm you as Town, which also confirms that the Demon Lord vote does function as Dunn claims it does.
Alyssa or I could hammer if you refuse to, but then if Dunn flips scum, there's uncertainty as to whether his description of DL was accurate, and that uncertainty could be used to push an elimination on you.

I’m not refusing to, I just want to see if he answers my questions. Problem is that he’s being scummy af in B but he was also scummy af in A. If he either doesn’t answer my questions or I dislike his answers, I have zero problem hammering him.

[Amy Dunne]

And if I answer that, you will vote for somebody else?

Answer first, then I’ll decide that.

[Amy Dunne]

I don't intend for the DL vote to be on the final wagon unless necessary, I voted house so that I can be voting both of who I think the scum team is.

But if you think I’m scum, wouldn’t it better to have both on me?

What about 2830?

[Amy Dunne]

Amy you need to hammer. Enough excuses.

I’m not? You rammed through Dunn in A, so I’m just being cautious. What’s so wrong with that?

It’s not a very good answer though because he should be having DL on me if he really thinks I’m scum.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy needs to hammer Dunn

Why not Alyssa or RR?

By having you end the wagon, my result, if I get one, should double confirm you as Town, which also confirms that the Demon Lord vote does function as Dunn claims it does.
Alyssa or I could hammer if you refuse to, but then if Dunn flips scum, there's uncertainty as to whether his description of DL was accurate, and that uncertainty could be used to push an elimination on you.

I’m not refusing to, I just want to see if he answers my questions. Problem is that he’s being scummy af in B but he was also scummy af in A. If he either doesn’t answer my questions or I dislike his answers, I have zero problem hammering him.

@Titus

[Amy Dunne]

Amy you need to hammer. Enough excuses.

I’m not? You rammed through Dunn in A, so I’m just being cautious. What’s so wrong with that?

It’s not a very good answer though because he should be having DL on me if he really thinks I’m scum.

Strongly disagree. If he thinks he's town dying, leaving a last will is good.

This really isn’t helping me.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy you need to hammer. Enough excuses.

I’m not? You rammed through Dunn in A, so I’m just being cautious. What’s so wrong with that?

It’s not a very good answer though because he should be having DL on me if he really thinks I’m scum.

Strongly disagree. If he thinks he's town dying, leaving a last will is good.

Actually not sure I agree with this, If I’m town!Dunn, I’d be putting both votes on either me or House but not both, so I think this isn’t a good analogy.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy you need to hammer. Enough excuses.

I’m not? You rammed through Dunn in A, so I’m just being cautious. What’s so wrong with that?

It’s not a very good answer though because he should be having DL on me if he really thinks I’m scum.

Strongly disagree. If he thinks he's town dying, leaving a last will is good.

This really isn’t helping me.

Not helping you what?

Your insisting I hammer when I already told you I wanted answers first.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy you need to hammer. Enough excuses.

Like this post, I’m trying to make the right decision and your response is to strongarm me into it. If we hadn’t just lost A, I would have already voted him, so excuse me for wanting to take a bit of time with this.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy stop stalling.
hammering is protown regardless of dunn's alignment

I’m not and I’m getting annoyed at being told that. Tell me how it’s protown and I’ll fucking hammer okay?

[Amy Dunne]

If Dunn flips Town, it's Amy and House OR Alyssa.
I haven't done the math to know if it's safe to eliminate me first in that case, but I'm probably dead tonight anyway, so I guess it'll all get cleared up then

We have one spare elimination, so we can afford to miss--once. (Unless a scum's kill fails again in which case we gain another mislim since we're on evens right now.)

This is both why I want a Dunnstral elimination today, and if he flips scum, an RR elimination tomorrow assuming scum leave you alive. Because it removes unsafe variables, it generates the most possible information, and it gives us the clearest best endgame state possible where we know the most we can possibly know and we have all the info we can have. When we get to mylo, I want to have there be no paranoia, no take-our-word-for-it scenarios, for it to be as close as we can get to having taken every variable into account.

A Dunnstral townflip means that you'd be scum since again, Amy Dunne's not scum with House and your claimed result would require Amy Dunne to be scum. Meaning the only possible scumteams would be RR + buddy (could even be Amy honestly) or Amy + Lady Chloe (and the latter I refuse to believe). However, that's only if Dunnstral flips town. Which he almost certainly isn't. It's good to prepare ahead in the worst case scenario where he IS town, but I just think that he's scum. I've thought Dunn was scum in one game from the beginning, I think his Demon Lord claim was scum-motivated, and I think the Demon Lord is a scum role because I have a suspicion that the scum having two roles to fuck with voting mechanics was a deliberate design choice on Jingle's part to give them counterplay to the wagon analyzer. (For the record, the UB being scum still fits that as the potential for the final scum to inherit the role would make it three for three in roles to fuck with the wagon analyzer. Which is another reason why I think RR could be scum regardless of Dunnstral's alignment.)

A Dunnstral scumflip means one scum left, and we have the knowledge that Amy Dunne is conftown (via RR's claimed result) and T3 is conftown (since T3 can only be scum if RR is, Dunn flipping scum means T3 can't be scum due to only one scum alive). Scum can kill one in the night, but not both. Meaning that we go into tomorrow with Titus (basically conftown already), RR, myself (essentially confirmed), 1/2 of our conftown, House, and Lady Chloe--
Eliminating RR tomorrow is safe. If RR is the last scum, it's the correct move to have made.
If RR is not scum, it basically creates a "1v1" between House and Lady Chloe. (Lady Chloe is not scum btw, so...)

That, aside from how RR is going to generate another result.

And if the scum kill RR to prevent that result, we've got even better!
Scum killing RR means that Amy Dunne and Dunnstral are both alive and conftown--with Titus as basically conftown and me as basically confirmed, you know what that means? We have 6 alive, a mislim, and literally precisely two scumspects, in House and Lady Chloe. (And it's not Lady Chloe.)

So the scum cannot kill RR, meaning RR should get that extra result, meaning that RR should give us the extra info tomorrow, and we can confirm the info by eliminating RR as to prevent the scenario of RR being scum bullshitting.

VOTE: Dunn

[Amy Dunne]

Spoiler: Mini Theme

Welcome, Dunnstral to Triplicate Mafia: Carbon Paper. A love letter to Bureaucracy at its finest.

You are

Form 22-2

, aligned with the Paperwork faction.

You may fill the game thread with many glorious words which contain the information needed to deduce the logic and reasoning behind the intentions of the other players in this game. All of the forms in this game have this power. You may also vote to retire some of the forms from use. Sadly, this destruction of forms is necessary, as there are petitions hidden amongst the forms that are trying to simplify the bureaucratic process, allowing the average individual to access the inner workings of their representation without hours of frustration and pain. Frankly, this cannot stand.

You win when all enemies of Paperwork have been eliminated and at least one Form is still alive.

Additionally, due to your special nature you have access to this PT. You may choose a name, and cast a vote using that name by posting in said PT. This is in addition to the vote described above and will not change the required number of votes for the vote threshhold.

I can’t believe Dunn actually chose DL as a name but why did he vote Meg with it and have his main as not voting? He played so scummy here, I can’t grok how he could gave been triple town here.

[Amy Dunne]

dunnstral deadass chose to use his extra vote using a name that was more indicative of a scum role than a town role

what the fuck

Ikr, what was he thinking?

[Amy Dunne]

Tomorrow we take our goddamned time and not rush this.

[Amy Dunne]

Two changes, which does indeed confirm Amy to be Scum

VOTE: RR

Nope

[Amy Dunne]

Two changes, which does indeed confirm Amy to be Scum

VOTE: RR

Nope

[Amy Dunne]

RR knows that game ends with my flip, so if you guys want him to win both A and B, definitely vote me.

[Amy Dunne]

RR knows that game ends with my flip, so if you guys want

them

to win both A and B, definitely vote me.

I find this amusing because this actually winds up being true regardless of my alignment.

If I were Scum, voting you would make me win both games of course.
But also as Town, voting you makes the game nearly impossible to lose, so I would indeed win both A and B anyway.

That’s what I’m saying. You’re going to win by miseliming me.

[Amy Dunne]

We should be massclaiming imo but my claim is still best hidden, so I'm not sure what to do about that.

Why would you advocate for a mass claiming and exclude yourself in it?

[Amy Dunne]

My take is I know I’m town and since RR says otherwise, he has to be scum here. Wrt to who his buddy could possibly be? Only one I can’t see is Mastina. Sorry if that’s not too helpful.

[Amy Dunne]

Nice, so RR is going out of his way to shade me based off of total wifom. Interesting.

[Amy Dunne]

Yeah, we're NOT eliminating House today.

Regardless of whether he's scum, Amy is mechanically confirmed and we're not risking passing that up. And if you think I'm lying there, then I should be pretty clearly scum instead.

House doesn't have anything except him being House, and not being explicitly confirmed Town.

Dwlee is spamming the neighborhood

Notably he's spamming the neighborhood immediately after Dunnstral asserted that Amy is scum and mastina should vote, if that means anything.

And I do think mastina voting is sub-optimal... But it does occur to me that the alternative is the other scum participating in guaranteeing their own defeat, so it may not be avoidable.

If this was actually true, then why make this post?

This reads to me like you’re grasping at straws to push my elim.

[Amy Dunne]

I’m 100% not moving my vote. RR is obvious scum now and he proved it by invoking Wifom from the neighborhood to augment his push on me. If he was telling the truth here, there would be absolutely no need to have done this.

[Amy Dunne]

Titus strongarms entire cities to get town to do what she wants in pursuit of a win.

She's scum.

Titus could be possibly be scum but I know RR is lying. I don’t really see Titus’ lim happening today regardless.

[Amy Dunne]

Prescription: Titus Votes, 4x/day for 1 day.

- House, MD

This made me lol.

[Amy Dunne]

Titus did do that in A and to Dunn but she hasn’t done it today and if she’s town, we could lose this. RR is the safest vote, in case Titus is town.

[Amy Dunne]

I don't think Titus is scum with RR actually... it she'd probably be pushing the Amy lim through.

Titus did do that in A and to Dunn but she hasn’t done it today and if she’s town, we could lose this. RR is the safest vote, in case Titus is town.

She isn’t pushing either of us today.

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that RR is lying. Because it proves I had an anti tmi on RCE!town in game C.

So, associatives with House don’t make sense.
I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Mastina has been pushing me for much of the game and the way Titus strongarmed me yesterday makes zero sense if we’re SvS.


So who is my fucking buddy RR? There isn’t one.

[Amy Dunne]

no but legit

associatives don't mean shit most of the time, they're way easier to manufacture and muddy up than it is to use them to get accurate scumreads from scumflips

it's almost disturbing how easy a lot of people just trust that scum wouldn't do specific things, it feels like a blanket thing

That is complete bullshit, especially in this kind of setup. I know this because that’s how I caught Queen!scum in ELSM C. The extremely suspicious way that Cheeky had been positioning Queen all THREE games gave it away. I will pull up quotes if anyone doubts this.

[Amy Dunne]

Who is my buddy then Alyssa?

[Amy Dunne]

it's technically possible that it's RR

but more likely than not House

How can I possibly be aligned with RR? Why does he position a 1v1 with me and Dunn, just to bus me one day later?

And Mastina’s already explained why my interactions with House don’t make sense as buddies.

[Amy Dunne]

Game C is a game that just seemed to have a lot of dayvigs or something. Votes cast in C are pointless for B.

Not true because if your argument is I can be scum with with Alyssa, then I would obviously have known that RCE was town in that and it’s beyond obvious I had no idea what RCE’s alignment was.

[Amy Dunne]

it's technically possible that it's RR

but more likely than not House

How can I possibly be aligned with RR? Why does he position a 1v1 with me and Dunn, just to bus me one day later?

And Mastina’s already explained why my interactions with House don’t make sense as buddies.

because this 1v1 doesn't make sense from a scum perspective where both of you are scum

So then how is it technically possible we could be buddies here?

[Amy Dunne]

or

RR claimed his UB and then was forced into a situation where he had to 1v1 you as the best odds of winning the game

So your argument is what exactly? He’s bussing me to get fake towncred to endgame? So he does this why? To make his path to victory even more difficult than it needs to be, when he could have just positioned Dunn with someone he’s unlaligned with and have an easy win?

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that RR is lying. Because it proves I had an anti tmi on RCE!town in game C.

So, associatives with House don’t make sense.
I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Mastina has been pushing me for much of the game and the way Titus strongarmed me yesterday makes zero sense if we’re SvS.


So who is my fucking buddy RR? There isn’t one.

You being scum in 2 with RCE in no way guarantees him to have been Town in 3, so that means absolutely nothing.

You’re misconstruing what I said. What I actually did say that I can’t be scum with RCE in B because I had an anti tmi on him in C.

[Amy Dunne]

Amy is good people.

That’s very kind of you to say and also true.

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with RR, he’s obvscum and I not only know this but my entire voting history proves that I can’t be aligned with anyone.
I voted out RCE in game C. Also every player in this game has pushed me at one point or another.

Mastina did for much of the game and she already explained House. Now recently, both Alyssa and House have positioned me as possible scum. Unless anyone seriously think my interactions with Titus yesterday were scum theatre, I’m clear.

This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that RR is lying. Because it proves I had an anti tmi on RCE!town in game C.

So, associatives with House don’t make sense.
I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Mastina has been pushing me for much of the game and the way Titus strongarmed me yesterday makes zero sense if we’re SvS.


So who is my fucking buddy RR? There isn’t one.

You being scum in 2 with RCE in no way guarantees him to have been Town in 3, so that means absolutely nothing.

You’re misconstruing what I said. What I actually did say that I can’t be scum with RCE in B because I had an anti tmi on him in C.

Which just doesn't follow. Alignment in any one game doesn't directly affect the others, and as we've demonstrated quite thoroughly here, killing/eliminating in one game does not automatically kill in the others, so.... What's your point?

That’s not even what I said. I said I have an anti tmi on RCE.

[Amy Dunne]

VOTE: Amy

I just explained to you why I can’t be scum here, so why tf are you voting me? If you’re not scum, you’re scumsiding. :/

[Amy Dunne]

I never vote RCE in game C here if he’s my buddy, because I would obviously already know he was town in game C.

Is this not what you're talking about with the anti tmi thing?

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. I can’t be aligned with anyone based on associatives and if I was aligned with Alyssa, how would I not have known RCE’s alignment in C?

[Amy Dunne]

Because RCE's alignment In C has absolutely nothing to do with you being buddies here?

I really irritated that both you and Titus continue to ignore my point. I said I have a fucking anti tmi on that slot.

And you and her just keep trying to twist it into something I never even said.

[Amy Dunne]

You said you wouldn't have voted RCE because you would have known he was Town by being buddies here, did you not?

Correct, that’s EXACTLY what I’m saying.

[Amy Dunne]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

I’m assuming that if he were scum in B, he would have found some way of letting his buddies know. I can’t explain how because I don’t even know if he’s your buddy or not yet. My point is. I obviously had no way of knowing because I’m town in B.

[Amy Dunne]

Not gonna lie, I'm kinda tempted to vote Amy Dunne here...

...But

not

to eliminate her.

Placing her at L-1 would, if there was a lack of hammer from both House and Alyssa, confirm that it MUST be RR + Titus, or Amy + House/Alyssa.

I'm not doing so however because obviously, House is a very very very likely partner for RR and since House isn't voting Amy......

(basically, I'm tempted to vote Amy Dunne, confirm Alyssa didn't hammer, confirm House didn't hammer, and then after that I would immediately unvote her...
...But because I think House

would

hammer, it's unfortunately too risky for me to try.)

Then we will lose and that won’t be on my head. We didn’t kill RR in A and now you want to hand him another victory on a silver platter but if you can’t see that I am clearly unaligned with anyone, that won’t be on me.

[Amy Dunne]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

I already answered that.

You’ve already fucking won. Your fake bs analysis fooled everyone, so gg you deserve it and whomever you’re buddy is. If Mastina wants to gamethrow, fucking vote me.

I am not scum. I am not aligned with fucking anyone but hey, let’s fucking hand you a second scum victory. I don’t give a shit.

[Amy Dunne]

@House, @Alyssa, one of should hammer, so I can rub in Mastina’s face when we lose. Go for it.

[Amy Dunne]

RR/Titus is the scumteam. Bye.

[Amy Dunne]

Okay. How would being buddies here tell you he was Town in 3?

I already answered that.

You’ve already fucking won. Your fake bs analysis fooled everyone, so gg you deserve it and whomever you’re buddy is. If Mastina wants to gamethrow, fucking vote me.

I am not scum. I am not aligned with fucking anyone but hey, let’s fucking hand you a second scum victory. I don’t give a shit.

You didn't though.
You said he would have "found a way to let [you] know," which he would probably try to do regardless of his actual alignment, because convincing people you're Town is how you play the game?

I mean you and I both already know you're scum grasping at straws here, but even so, you could at least make an actual point here...

You and I both know that you’re lying about me and if that didn’t actually cost us the game, I might actually be resigned to it.

[Amy Dunne]

Not gonna lie, I'm kinda tempted to vote Amy Dunne here...

...But

not

to eliminate her.

Placing her at L-1 would, if there was a lack of hammer from both House and Alyssa, confirm that it MUST be RR + Titus, or Amy + House/Alyssa.

I'm not doing so however because obviously, House is a very very very likely partner for RR and since House isn't voting Amy......

If you vote House, I would join and hope the town in Amy/RR joins. I feel much better on voting House.

But why would I vote anywhere other than RR when I know he’s lying about me?

[Amy Dunne]

I'm not voting House.

We literally have a mechanical guilty here, and I cannot comprehend how ignoring that is even on the table. I understand doubting me and voting me as a result, because I am lie about this as Town, but just.... Voting someone else entirely while there's a hard guilty that exists?

You can keep saying this until hell freezes over, it’s still doesn’t change the fact that it’s straight up bs.

[Amy Dunne]

I know RR is lying scum, so it would be gamethrowing for me to vote anywhere else.

[Amy Dunne]

why does scum!house choose a 1v1 with Titus exactly

If I'm townreading you, it's picked anyway essentially unless RR and Amy is the team. He didn't pick this 1 v 1 at all. I FoSed him well before because he refused to staye a read on me.

He's also not voting Amy or RR to avoid confirming his partner but I feel it's Amy.

Mastina already made an extensive case why this makes absolutely no sense.

[Amy Dunne]

I know RR is lying scum, so it would be gamethrowing for me to vote anywhere else.

I'm not voting House.

We literally have a mechanical guilty here, and I cannot comprehend how ignoring that is even on the table. I understand doubting me and voting me as a result, because I am lie about this as Town, but just.... Voting someone else entirely while there's a hard guilty that exists?

This is the sole reason why House is not on a pike.

Because I know he’s fucking lying about me, so why would I want to vote anywhere else? I wouldn’t vote you, Alyssa or Mastina over the only person I 100% know has to be scum.

His buddy could be anyone of out of you, Alyssa, House and - she gets a scummie if she’s been playing all of us, Mastina - and if we vote wrong, scum!RR and whomever is his buddy still wins.

However, I’m very suspicious that you want to flip it to House, which makes me think it actually could be RR/you.

[Amy Dunne]

I'm not voting House.

We literally have a mechanical guilty here, and I cannot comprehend how ignoring that is even on the table. I understand doubting me and voting me as a result, because I am lie about this as Town, but just.... Voting someone else entirely while there's a hard guilty that exists?

You can keep saying this until hell freezes over, it’s still doesn’t change the fact that it’s straight up bs.

I know RR is lying scum, so it would be gamethrowing for me to vote anywhere else.

I find this to be mildly amusing/ironic

Yeah, it’s totally amusing to me that you’d go this far to try to push a miselim on me. Absolutely hilarious.

[Amy Dunne]

The funny part is that immediately after asserting my 1v1 on you is bullshit, you then effectively say the same thing.

Because I know you’re scum and I think limming anyone but you puts us in possible danger of losing.

[Amy Dunne]

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

This is possibly incorrect. It's the only reason I'm considering voting RR.

I'm going to claim now as I think you're making a mistake based on the assumption that you're wrong. I am a bulletproof bodyguard as well. That's the failsafe.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

It does create a strength issue with RR's claim but I still believe him. I don't think scum shoots T3 there when I am in the game.

We are eliminating today, even if I disagree for the reasons above.

@mastina

The other reasons I was alluding to?
Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and

can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways

.

Wow, this is the weirdest wifom wifom nonsense I think I’ve ever seen. But I can’t believe you just admitted that you straight up lied about me.

[Amy Dunne]

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

This is possibly incorrect. It's the only reason I'm considering voting RR.

I'm going to claim now as I think you're making a mistake based on the assumption that you're wrong. I am a bulletproof bodyguard as well. That's the failsafe.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

It does create a strength issue with RR's claim but I still believe him. I don't think scum shoots T3 there when I am in the game.

We are eliminating today, even if I disagree for the reasons above.

@mastina

The other reasons I was alluding to?
Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and

can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways

.

Wow, this is the weirdest wifom wifom nonsense I think I’ve ever seen. But I can’t believe you just admitted that you straight up lied about me.

RR just outright claimed scum with this post.

[Amy Dunne]

In any case, with Titus actually claiming publicly, and my guaranteed knowledge of her as Town...

I am okay being eliminated if that's what needs to happen.
Scum can't kill Titus or mastina because bulletproof.
Scum can't kill Any because Amy is scum and my flip proves that
Alyssa/House could go either way still, but if Titus protects the Town there... We win.

I do still think we should eliminate the mechanical guilty here instead of relying on a coin toss, but eliminating me isn't actually an auto loss, so if that's what it takes to get people to believe me, so be it.

3147, you admitted you lied but we’re all idiots okay. lol

[Amy Dunne]

Meaning that scum can kill literally any of {House, Alyssa, Titus} tonight if we don't get an elimination.

This is possibly incorrect. It's the only reason I'm considering voting RR.

I'm going to claim now as I think you're making a mistake based on the assumption that you're wrong. I am a bulletproof bodyguard as well. That's the failsafe.

A50 protected RCE night 1, so I'm inclined to view Alyssa as town. That creates the problem of three people that might have been shot night 1.

It does create a strength issue with RR's claim but I still believe him. I don't think scum shoots T3 there when I am in the game.

We are eliminating today, even if I disagree for the reasons above.

@mastina

The other reasons I was alluding to?
Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and

can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways

.

Wow, this is the weirdest wifom wifom nonsense I think I’ve ever seen. But I can’t believe you just admitted that you straight up lied about me.

Where did I ever admit I lied about you? What did I even "lie" about?

First you claim some wifom nonsense which is obviously meaningless, then you claim you made up your “results”. I already knew that you lied but I’m floored that you actually admitted to it.

[Amy Dunne]

That's... not at all what I said.

I said I COULD have made them up IF I were scum faking a hit on Titus' bulletproof bodyguarding me, BECAUSE that would have given me enough towncred to push things through.


Please actually read my posts before attempting to misrep them

How am I misrepping you? I know you’re lying about your results and then you post this meaningless wifom nonsense about why you wouldn’t kill T3 meanwhile making it blatantly obvious how it would be easy fabricate this made up “mech guilty” on me.

And I since know you did, no misrep.

[Amy Dunne]

That is also not what I said. I said I WOULD kill T3 here, but so would ANY competent scumteam

If I already didn’t know that you lied about me, I’d probably be voting you for 3147 alone.

[Amy Dunne]

Speaking of withheld information: we really

should

massclaim here.

RR has fullclaimed; I have claimed. But unless I'm mistaken, that's only 2/6 slots claimed.

In mylo.

Why haven't we had at least 3 other claims here? Titus holding back from claiming, she's partially explained at least, but the other three of you (House, Amy, Alyssa) have no such excuse for it.

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. I’m vt.

[Amy Dunne]

[Titus expressed intent to protect me last night. If I'm scum, I no kill there and play it as if scum had attacked me. We miss out on the kill, yes, but I get mostly confirmed and can make up whatever results I need and interpret them in plausibly deniable ways.

The problem with that is that a failed kill gives the town an extra mislim. You v Amy Dunne is a 1v1. With an extra mislim, we'd be able to eliminate Amy Dunne for free. And then you'd be outed as confscum for having lied. And you couldn't win because you gave the town an extra elimination.

We're on evens now. A no-kill after an elimination would've brought us up to odds again. With a no-kill, today is seven alive rather than six. With two scum left in the game, that means we can safely kill Amy Dunne today and then tomorrow, it's 5p lylo but you're outed as confscum.

So no.

You could not no-kill last night.

Doing so would've been gamethrowing.

Only if I'd claimed the same results I did truthfully here.
As scum with knowledge of an extant protective role, I know that we're only in fake MeLo here, and as such would fabricate results that expand my allowed misses.

The only thing that is “truthful” about any of this, is that you did fabricate bullshit results to get both Dunn and me miselimed.

[Amy Dunne]

On reread I see something was really off about the Dunn push. That it was obvious you were faking that result but he was obviously a much easier miselim than me. It’s pretty ingenious actually. You position two townies, claiming one of them has to be scum. Push the more mislimable one first, then the more obvious town next. How this isn’t clear to absolutely everyone yet, is mind blowing.

[Amy Dunne]

Anyway, I need to go to work now.

Dunnstral is the best elimination in both games, but T3 needs to be the next vote for Game 2 wagon purposes. I suppose if Cheeky, Chloe, or Dwlee want to vote as well, they can, but no one alive in Game 2 except T3, please and thank you.

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with Ircher that the balance is fucked here, which is a significant part of why I thought it had to be Dunnstral scum over Amy, despite Amy's play heavily pinging me.

I don't agree with Ircher that I need to be eliminated here, but as I've said, I'm okay with it if that's what has to happen, and we still have a chance as long as everyone plays perfectly from then on.

Because I just didn’t fully trust you after you sounded the same as in game A and it turned out I was right about that but I’m sure you’ll find a way to flip that around on me to fit your narrative.

[Amy Dunne]

On reread I see something was really off about the Dunn push. That it was obvious you were faking that result but he was obviously a much easier miselim than me. It’s pretty ingenious actually. You position two townies, claiming one of them has to be scum. Push the more mislimable one first, then the more obvious town next. How this isn’t clear to absolutely everyone yet, is mind blowing.

I like how RR completely ignored this post.

[Amy Dunne]

I don't get where your concern about me gamethrowing is coming from.

Well if RR were scum and you refused to vote him, then it'd be gamethrowing, but you've since reassured me that isn't the case, so I am a lot less concerned.

This might be that situation. This feels like the role was particularly forced to get a result of some sort if RR is town. If Cheeky gets killed, then RR comes by and gets a result. If scum try to shoot an outed role, then the bodyguard should have protected them. *side eye A50* The only situation I see with that is scum should have a counter to follow the investigation unless the investigation doesn't feel gamebreaking to Jingle. Wagon sensor and similar roles tend to be some of the most controversial on mafiascum.

Well, Dwlee did have hated/loved, and I am a 3p (on a site that tends to policy-eliminate 3ps so I can theoretically have incentive to not claim), and both of those can significantly affect the balance of the wagon sensor.

It wouldn't surprise me if Jingle thought that the 3p wouldn't claim 3p and would lie and say they're town, in spite of the fact that doing so would be harmful to my wincon (because I need two scum dead) and in spite of how it could risk me becoming caught in a lie.

Basically, from my perspective, I had to claim, because not doing so would have ensured a scum win here when I need two dead scum in order for me to have a chance at winning. And if I hadn't claimed, down the line, I wouldn't have been able to. The town would rightly have asked, "if you had claimed earlier, you could've saved (mislims from me having not outted), why the hell didn't you?!?" (and then promptly eliminate me and lose to the scum). Or the town would see that there's X amount of alignment changes and deduce from the flips that it means I cannot be town and eliminate me (and then promptly lose to the scum). From my perspective, that means that it's mandatory for me to have claimed here, because the wagon sensor literally forces it if I am on the wagon that gets sensored. (And as I don't have any information about a wagon sensor, I have no way to know about it in advance.)

But Jingle probably didn't think about that interaction. He probably assumed a 3p wouldn't claim 3p even tho the wagon sensor basically makes it mandatory, because Jingle wouldn't think about how the wagon sensor would make a claim from the 3p on the wagon be mandatory. So he probably balanced it around the assumption that I

wouldn't

claim, because he failed to take into account the interactions above which make claiming mandatory to have a chance at winning.

All that said?

I agree with you.

Bodyguard-BP + unlimited wagon sensor + universal backup is too much imo even if Jingle didn't take into account that I'd be required to claim.

You forgot Dunn being town double voter.

[Amy Dunne]

VOTE: RR

I really want to side with my tonal reads as they have been more accurate than my mechanical reads but I still vote with hesitation. Setups for the past year or so have largely been townsided. Game A (although you disagree mastina) was largely townsided imo. Getting another townsided setup wouldn't be the most shocking thing in the world.

How was it townsided?

[Amy Dunne]

On reread I see something was really off about the Dunn push. That it was obvious you were faking that result but he was obviously a much easier miselim than me. It’s pretty ingenious actually. You position two townies, claiming one of them has to be scum. Push the more mislimable one first, then the more obvious town next. How this isn’t clear to absolutely everyone yet, is mind blowing.

I like how RR completely ignored this post.

[Amy Dunne]

my best guess for last scum is House.

@Amy/RR

Who is town in Alyssa/House?

As of right now I would guess House.

Yeah, we're NOT eliminating House today.

[Amy Dunne]

my best guess for last scum is House.

@Amy/RR

Who is town in Alyssa/House?

As of right now I would guess House.

Yeah, we're NOT eliminating House today.

Crazy how reads can change over time huh? And I do still stand by not eliminating him today, but not because I don't think he's scum. I just think it's smarter to eliminate the 100% scum and then the maybe scum

I could not agree with that more which is why I refuse to vote anyone but you.

[Amy Dunne]

I agree with Ircher that the balance is fucked here, which is a significant part of why I thought it had to be Dunnstral scum over Amy, despite Amy's play heavily pinging me.

I agree with Ircher that the balance is fucked here, which is a significant part of why I thought it had to be Dunnstral scum over Amy, despite Amy's play heavily pinging me.

Because I just didn’t fully trust you after you sounded the same as in game A and it turned out I was right about that but I’m sure you’ll find a way to flip that around on me to fit your narrative.

[Amy Dunne]

Alright, someone just hammer me and get it over with I guess.

Obviously, if we survive the night, do Amy next, and then as of right now, my best guess for last scum is House.

If we DON'T survive the night... Well, I told ya so I guess.

UNVOTE: RR
I'm not ready for the day to end yet.

Lol, you’re only at E - 2.

[Amy Dunne]

It is at least partially my fault the Ircher elimination happened though, and had it not we might be in a better spot here...

But also I'd be Dwlee

instead of Cheeky, and Dwlee is a notably less useful role, so I think maybe that was a good thing? Or at least it would have been if I were better at convincing people I wasn't lying

RR flipping scum, not news but f you believe this, he’s actually a scum ub. I thought it was a straight up made up fakeclaim. Wow.

[Amy Dunne]

If I were scum, I'd have no reason to keep up the charade at this point. I'm already dead.

You’re still alive until Jingle posts your flip and locks the thread.

[Amy Dunne]

So we won because Mastina gratitude voted Titus because scum limmed RR or what?

And why wasn’t Mastina’s name Dexter? Seeing I got vigged was something I totally did not expect.

I did totally not expect there to be another day.

[Amy Dunne]

I absolutely hate hate hate wagon analyzer role irrespective of alignment. I don’t approve of any sort of confirmed mech guilty which guilties scum not based on play, so I was legit furious with RR calling me confiscum based on that. Had I been guiltied because of a tracker, watcher or hell, even AC wouldn’t be as anywhere near as infuriating and when we killed one, we get a brand new one.

I also misread RR in A because he wanted to keep Dwlee alive in A and obviously I knew he was town in that because I didn’t recognize the so-called pr soft and locktowned him based on RCE dying in A.

[Amy Dunne]

We joint won, Amy

That's why Titus died

Because Mastina being SK made her kingmaker?

[Amy Dunne]

And why wasn’t Mastina’s name Dexter?

mastina's name was originally Alex (as a gender neutral random name), but GE was planning a hiatus and wasn't able to play so I let them pick a flavor name. I'm not sure the why behind the choice.

Think that one went over your head.

[Amy Dunne]

Also please don't post in scumchat anymore

The fact that the last post is "Oh" is absolutely hilarious to me

I can’t, it’s locked.

[Amy Dunne]

Subject: Petition Lounge

I can confirm you will win a 1v1 endgame, regardless of the other roles. Whether you win alone or share the win with a theoretical SK is what I cannot confirm.

So, we autowin regardless of whether Alyssa votes out Titus or Mastina? But if both Mastina and Titus vote Alyssa, wouldn’t we have lost?

[Amy Dunne]

*takes note of Amy pocketing me for future reference*

Nah, that’s actually a really bad take. I base my reads similarly to what I’d do as town.

[Amy Dunne]

*takes note of Amy pocketing me for future reference*

Nah, that’s actually a really bad take. I base my reads similarly to what I’d do as town.

Also keep in mind I was simultaneously trying to win both games and I was town in A. It was Cheeky this time not you, who successfully pocketed me.

[Amy Dunne]

guilties scum not based on play

Wagon analyzer doesn't provide immediate guilties. It makes PoE pools.

Like, the results from the first wagon said there were at least 2 scum on wagon prior to claims. The knowledge you had as scum implied it would make a 1v1 between Dwlee and Demon Lord, with CT as conftown before any other claims.

Specifically, it's incredibly powerful because of it's ability to make PoE pools, but it is actually less prone to making non play related mech guilties than most investigative roles.

The wagon analyzer is explicitly a very very powerful role, but flat guilties is not at all the problem with it.

But my point still stands: with any one of tracker/watcher/AC, your play has a direct connection to you possibly being inno’d or guiltied.

With tracker/AC, it’s because the wrong player sr you and with watcher, because you got caught but with WA, you get guiltied for doing nothing that either makes anyone suspicious of you and don’t get caught killing anyone.

Basically I got lucky not being on Meg but I had to vote on Dunn because damned if you do, damned if you don’t, pretty much and I found that to be extremely unfair.

I think RR talking to me like I was town while calling me confiscum helped, as did him referencing Dwlee’s spamming in hood, because it made his mech guilty on me less credible. Also, the way he kept going on and on about how scum!him no kills, made him looked informed.

I almost didn’t add Ircher to the hood. I could have handled it differently but I just didn’t want to be a part of any hoods if I could help it, especially since it wasn’t necessary because both RCE and Dwlee had guaranteed access to it, even if I endgamed, so my being in it wasn’t necessary.

[Amy Dunne]

So, we autowin regardless of whether Alyssa votes out Titus or Mastina? But if both Mastina and Titus vote Alyssa, wouldn’t we have lost?

Yes.

Technically, either mastina or alyssa could have refused the joint win and tried to win solo, in which case Titus was Kingmaker. Town could not have won the 1v1v1.

Right, so if either Mastina or Alyssa gets greedy for some inexplicable reason, there’s a solo win? That’s whack.

[Amy Dunne]

It might force setups to be more Townsided though which I'm far less enthused about

Site meta is pretty townsided, atm. I feel like scum being able to vent to their partners might help with the issue of people not enjoying playing scum and thus shutting down with a red PM which is a big factor in the townsidedness of site meta.

Overall, I think it has the potential to be a shift like the shift from night chat to day chat, where there were growing pains but Night chat is almost universally considered worse now.

The absolute worst thing for scum is not having daychat, another thing I wouldn’t approve of as any alignment. Basically setups need to make things less shitty for scum in general. You’re allowing dead scum to post is a start.
But playing scum needs to be more fun, then you would probably see less replace outs as scum.

[Amy Dunne]

Actually, the comparison to watcher is very apt.

Watcher generates guilties by town playing well and being recognized as town, and punishes scum for making what would otherwise be a good play (killing strong town voices). It is a ridiculously powerful role and should not be used in many instances. When it is used one should always be careful how it is used.

The wagon analysis role is both harder to manipulate to use well and potentially more dangerous to scum, which is why there was literally a third of the game devoted to mitigating its impact.

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups (in fact, I actually enjoy them as long as I have a clue what’s happening) but hard disagree because you actually have to br caught visiting the dead to get caught as watcher. Here, voting can get you mech guiltied, so not at all the same thing. Only thing is my reaction to the guilty may have been different since I wouldn’t have been so pissed that that. Being mech guiltied just for voting, is what I take strong exception too. Mastina actually being SK mitigates it some but I think it’s an extremely unfair role to have. It’s extremely discouraging to scum to feel that your dayplay is completely irrelevant. Fact, is I probably endgame here without WA because I had made none of the kills, so only AC could have caught me.

[Amy Dunne]

I almost didn’t add Ircher to the hood. I could have handled it differently but I just didn’t want to be a part of any hoods if I could help it, especially since it wasn’t necessary because both RCE and Dwlee had guaranteed access to it, even if I endgamed, so my being in it wasn’t necessary.

I think you used the neighborizer just fine, although I think it would definitely have been a mistake for RCE to claim neighborizor like you considered because then if you flipped he was sunk.

One of the things the role could have done would be to set up a false guilty in a pool by making an all town neighborhood, implying scum would be in it if/when you flipped. I also think it could have been a very strongly town AI claim if you'd played it slightly differently, but I don't think that's necessarily a better use of the role, just a different one. I liked it as a scum role because there were a bunch of different options as to how one could use it best and I don't think any of them were a "correct" option.

I love hoods as town, as scum it’s just another way to get caught.

[Amy Dunne]

Yeah, I tyink not being able to make votes game specific probably hurt town the lost in all games. I would much prefer if you could actually vote who you wanted in each game.

VOTE: player X in game _

for example would have been a lot better.

[Amy Dunne]

If the votes are separate like that, you're JUST playing three games in one thread.

I would actually be interested in MORE opportunities for the games to fuck with each other, like perhaps cross-game PRs (specific ones, not EVERY role). Say, a Cop that reveals how many games a slot is scum in, but not WHICH games.

Balance would be even more nightmarish though

Not which? With only three games, how hard would that be? lol

[Amy Dunne]

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups

The wagon role is exactly what I mean by mechanically complex. Things like bus drivers, extra communications, my conspiracies game with an SK/maf godfather traitor combo, games with thieves… basically the games that require a lot of legwork to understand or are virtually impossible to understand prior to endgame.

Comparatively, you enjoy my mutation setups which are fairly straightforward but twisting, like vengeful ghosts with a dead thread that could vig shoot or the game where the scum wincon was that their night kill was actually an escape from danger.

I hope you do that nightmare game again, that one seemed really fun. I don’t mind mech complex setups, I just hate roles that that can guilty/inno a player merely for voting. I feel WA undermines play as an important factor.

[Amy Dunne]

I think I’d be more willing to experiment with mutations over cross game pr usage. Cross game pr usage is where doubles mafia fell apart, after all.

/pre-in

+1

/pre-in

[Amy Dunne]

Vengeful ghosts was painful

Games are usually painful when town doesn’t think. That’s been my experience anyway but it still was a cool setup regardless.

[Amy Dunne]

*hugs Amy because it's fun *

<3

[Amy Dunne]

I don’t necessarily hate mechanically complex setups

The wagon role is exactly what I mean by mechanically complex. Things like bus drivers, extra communications, my conspiracies game with an SK/maf godfather traitor combo, games with thieves… basically the games that require a lot of legwork to understand or are virtually impossible to understand prior to endgame.

Comparatively, you enjoy my mutation setups which are fairly straightforward but twisting, like vengeful ghosts with a dead thread that could vig shoot or the game where the scum wincon was that their night kill was actually an escape from danger.

I hope you do that nightmare game again, that one seemed really fun. I don’t mind mech complex setups, I just hate roles that that can guilty/inno a player merely for voting. I feel WA undermines play as an important factor.

As opposed to more normal roles that guilty you for existing? Voting is absolutely part of play, and can be avoided or manipulated accordingly

Hard disagree but I honestly don’t know how to make my point any clearer.

[Amy Dunne]

multigame setups aren't the easiest to mod.

Don't be so mod-ist, you make them look easy ^.^

lol

mod-ist

but yeah definitely true.