Mini Normal 2252 | W;ildlife amd strange critters | Over!!

[Oman]

Good morning. What an interesting start to a game. Please to be here for it.

Andante is the obvious elephant in the room, but I'm not overly concerned at this point. I know people can get really talky when they're scum but eh I'm mostly seeing enthusiasm. The response to #33 wasn't stellar, but also doesn't give me enough red flags.

If I was going to pick a direction to go now, it'd be VOTE: Natalya.

[Oman]

excuse it as an older player coming back to the site and feeling out-of-place with the site meta.

Excuse a bunch of that in anything I do as well, please My first game in about 5 years.

[Oman]

Good morning. What an interesting start to a game. Please to be here for it.

Andante is the obvious elephant in the room, but I'm not overly concerned at this point. I know people can get really talky when they're scum but eh I'm mostly seeing enthusiasm. The response to #33 wasn't stellar, but also doesn't give me enough red flags.

If I was going to pick a direction to go now, it'd be VOTE: Natalya.

Really? I feel like Andante wanting to push the game out of RVS phase is distinctly town-indicative. Worst case scenario it gives us associatives/more information if they do flip scum.

Why do you scumread Natalya?

Again, I'm a long time out of the game. But it reads more kind of jumpy. I only looked back through one completed game to see if Andante is this...uhhh cyclonic(?) in other games and didn't see it. I normally see that kind of push as not town, or new, basically a degree of "eagerness" that comes of being excited for the game to roll into "the good bits".

I don't scumread Natalya. I just think she has nice links to other people Early on, I'm not gonna paragon out the scum team or anything, but connections between people are the most valuable resource. Especially re: Scorpius because there's a nice web around there.

Andante is the obvious elephant in the room, but I'm not overly concerned at this point.
I know people can get really talky when they're scum but eh I'm mostly seeing enthusiasm.

LMAOOOO This is great. "Andante is talking a lot. Has to be scum indicative"

That's...absolutely not what I said. Mate, c'mon. I actually said the opposite. Playing me off so disingenuously isn't helpful to anyone.

Welcome back, yeah I played a game on another site and was thinking : “I wonder if MS is still a thing”

TURNS OUT IT IS! I heard that Patrick Gower won the Nisei world champs and I was like "huh, we used to play mafia together"

The fact that there was “reasoning” behind the vote, then the attempt at recruiting the most verbose player thus far, which was promptly ignored.

This was perhaps the most interesting thing for me. Because that kind of recruitment is a start of a connection.

like, it's like we're trying to go no where

This kind of meta demand is frustrating to me, because it treats early day one as a "solved problem". It's absolutely not. Any step could be an interesting one. It doesn't have to be generating a wagon, then investigating people who were 4th on the wagon, or whatever those conventional wisdoms are. This game is pacing well, there's some good discussion. It's not going no where, and I'm not really concerned that we did RVS wrong or anything.

Eh, I'll bite: Why Natalya?

Connections. Pushing one person usually doesn't generate anything interesting. Pushing someone that other people have had opinions on usually generates more.

i have some thoughts on the game but won't say them yet VOTE: scorpio

Don't love this attitude :/


I personally get town vibes from Scorpius, and would put one scum on the Scorpius wagon already, which is one of Az, Egix, Fua. Az obviously has given me nothing to go on, and page 3/4 Fua is a strong town-read for me. Egix also hasn't given me enough to really press on.

At this point, I think there's more value in working two competing wagons rather than pushing my own agenda anywhere (again, not a pargon over here).

I'll VOTE: Vote: T3 because I think we can actually get momentum on it, and again, strong connections with other players. D1 takes 7, so I've no sweat with Either wagon hitting 4 votes with the level of activity/momentum we have here.

[Oman]

Oh in my original count earlier I said one scum on Scorpius, and I excluded Nat. I just missed it, her vote must've been earlier than I looked.

[Oman]

I think Natalya probably has ~sincere conviction~ or whatever in her Scorp read, I just don't really think I see it, the questions he asked her are just asking her to explain her reads, which isn't exactly screaming "scum" to me. His response is weird but I would agree with Oman's assessment at the end of 115 that the votes on Scorp after Natalya look opportunistic in nature, which has me not wanting to go in that direction.

A thing that confuses me is that Retti/Oman believe the latter voters on the Scorp wagon to be opportunistic in nature but their votes are on T3, who is not voting for Scorp.

I was pretty explicit about why I made my vote in my post: It's better to have two strong wagons which cause people to move into "camps" and draw lines between each other than for me to vote egrix or whatever.

[Oman]

Scorp’s last post seems like genuine frustration, but I can’t tell whether it’s frustration at being tunneled as a townie or scum upset that they got caught out of nowhere.

I'm 100% in the genuine frustration camp. None of it is giving me "Cornered scum" vibes. Scorpius is one of my strongest townreads right now.

wow... Oman town, I don't see scum putting in that much effort this early

What about the effort did you like, exactly?

I retract 119, I didn't actually read the giant post, there's something that feels off about an Omin post I just read tbh

Wow. the worst, this is your fave poster, huh? Andante, you're posting a lot, including a lot of opinions. I think it would help the town as a whole if you actually read stuff before posting thoughts on them, because that's the default assumption: That your opinions are informed by the posts that came before. If that's not true, it makes it really hard for us to engage with the general nature of scumhunting (consistency of opinion, actions as a response to other comments, etc). We're all reading your posts, intently, as cyclonic as they can be. It would be appreciated if you showed us the same respect.

Uhh what? you SR someone for not voting? I mean, my method of scumhunting doesn't typically involve talking with my vote? Like, engaging with people and talking to them is better than just a simple (Vote X)

I think when people's vote movement deviates from their stance in thread that it's a scumtell.

I really only agree with this when we're getting to "vote = action" stages. that's not true right now. I could vote you, it puts you at like El-6 or -5 or something. That vote isn't necessarily an active "thing", right? I dunno, again this is absolutely a playstyle differential. I don't always vote for the person I want eliminated, especially this early. I consider stance and votes to be different tools that can deviate.

but in the mean time, VOTE: the worst

I'm doing this, and I genuinely have to go back to studying, but have no fear, I shall not forget about this

I'm just quoting this post because it's the last one, nothing about this vote in particular, just generally: There have been 3-4 "wagons" that hit about 3-4 votes each. In each case, momentum has stalled, and pressure has fallen off. In that vein: @JacksonVirgo, do you see enough in either Egix or the worst that you'd like to see the wagon taken further?


(per my last email VOTE: Egix96)

[Oman]

VOTE: Jackson

I expect some interaction/comments on what we've seen over the past 11 days. If you're town you're not helping, if you're scum youre skating

[Oman]

egix is i think my only spicy townread

I'd be keen to hear more. Everyone got a nice descriptor, except this one, and it's the one I must disagree with you on

[Oman]

I’m puzzled because they switched the vote to Jackson over..? Policy?

Mmm I won't pretend there's much galaxy brain to it. We need more from the three absentees if we're to make any informed decision over the next week

[Oman]

In terms of content there's about 14 words between the three of them W/ less than a week left in D1. It's kinda fucked.

[Oman]

Trying to expand on my townread on Egix feels like trying to explain a shitty townread on a scumbuddy who you dont need to interact with. I'm going to devolve and just yell "it's a gut feeling!!!", throw away my toys and walk away.

Its not...stellar. But I understand where you're coming from.



Its hard at the moment to talk about whether scum have been opportunistic or not when nothing has actually had any momentum. There hasn't been an opportunity for scum to push for early hammers or anything. We've maxed out at, what, -3? I can't see scum trying too much on D1 to push momentum anywhere.

At this phase of D1, I'd say that not being opportunistic doesn't matter much when there's no opportunities on the table.

[Oman]

Ugh, given the replacement I should also shift the vote somewhere. I'd honestly love to put Scorpius at -2 just to stir up the sediment and see what floats. But it's just such a bad wagon.

VOTE: Egix

[Oman]

Ugh, given the replacement I should also shift the vote somewhere. I'd honestly love to put Scorpius at -2 just to stir up the sediment and see what floats. But it's just such a bad wagon.

VOTE: Egix

What would throwing Scorp at E-2 accomplish?

-2 is about where the actual pressure comes in. It's where scum can try to opportunistically hammer. It's where claims come out. E-2/-1 are effective positions for action. But given the fact that it's a bad wagon, I obviously don't want to push that.

I didn't read omin's post, my bad. maybe I need to just not talk if I'm not reading what I missed, but like, hey, I know what I didn't read, I'll read it eventually

Christ. you have LITERALLY DOUBLE the amount of posts of the next highest poster, and you're about 6 standard deviations from the mean. CAN YOU PLEASE READ BEFORE YOU GO OFF

do you read people's posts in like, internally-assigned voices?

She doesn't read posts.

counterpoint: i could just say

i solemnly swear i will eliminate retti because their name is short for spaghetti

and ride the nonsense train

I would legit actually just replace out at that point. This game is so frustrating. Andante doesn't read stuff, half the town isn't posting anything, and there's so much "tee hee, just trust me, k" reductive trash going on from those that are around.

I'm gonna be pissed if fua is scum because their posts are the only ones I look forward to reading and engaging with.

What's the case for Retti and Oman being partners if the former flips scum? I might have missed something there.

Post 372. Andante has since gone back on the Retti read after investigation, but that was the case.


Natalya, I'm concerned you're still sitting on the Scorp wagon. You seem pretty sharp and have been well engaged with the game so far. Are you still committed to that vote?

[Oman]

But noted, I'll dial it back.

Nah you're good! I'm just in a mood after seeing ANOTHER "oh I'll catch up" post from a lurker and ANOTHER "Lol i didn't even read" post from Andante.

Along with Andante's survivor alliance play rn, it's a bit of a culture shock for someone who used to really enjoy playing here because it held itself to a higher standard than EM/SA/whatever other house of play was around. I'm taking it pretty hard, and I'm sorry I externalised that to you.

My fingers are triply-crossed that we get some activity in D2. But the reality is that it's best for the scum to leave the lurkers alive and eliminate people that are contributing, so my hopes are not high. My D3/4 prediction is 50% of the remaining alive have post counts in the single digits, hoping to follow-the-cop somewhere.

Natalya, I'm concerned you're still sitting on the Scorp wagon. You seem pretty sharp and have been well engaged with the game so far. Are you still committed to that vote?

I'll be honest the only thing he's done so far to make me think about unvoting him is talking about how he has a deep voice like Joe DiMaggio.

Proper fuckin' lol on my side here


Six days actually concerns me when 3 players have 25 words of substance between them. Our D1 votes are gonna be slammed and it's going to make d2 a pain. I can see it coming.

Andante is somewhat hyper by nature, but she is that way as both alignments so it's not very alignment indicative.

I'm not concerned about it from an alignment perspective. I'm concerned about it from a "I actually don't feel respected as a fellow player" perspective. But that's the nature of it, isn't it? Tiring is a very good estimation of how I find this game at this point.

[Oman]

She's extremely nice and I'm fairly sure she doesn't mean it in a disrespectful manner.

I don't want to uh....talk "around" someone or anything. And I really don't want to derail what game chat we have onto this but:
1) Intent doesn't matter to me in this situation.
2) I specifically asked her to afford me the same respect and courtesy that I was showing her, and she chose not to in going forward.

I'm sure she's nice. I have no doubt about that, niceness was never the question, and I don't have any like burning hatred or whatever. I think I just had different expectations.

[Oman]

Egix/Scorpious/One of the lurkers

I'm not sure if any of the lurkers are scum for obvious reasons, but I'm 100% down that we take Egix or andres to the hole today.

[Oman]

Like, at D1 let's not be scared of -1/-2. Its a tool that generates responses and we've seen some. It's good. Natalya walking away from the ledge is a solid town play if Scorp is (per my belief) town. That's really valuable to me and to the team as a whole.

Is a good place to be. I'm heading to sleep but hopefully we point this in an actual good direction before I wake up and hold this momentum.

I don't know if this E-1 or 2 or whatever it was vote leads to Dwleescum but it's a) a better wagon than Scorp, and b) I'm here to find out.

VOTE: Dwlee99

[Oman]

Sorry for the quick post this morning. Flying for a work thing for my new gig this morning, then will be at work events all afternoon evening. I'll try to have a full connection in the next 24hrs, but will be V/LA

[Oman]

In terms of vote, I'm happy to leave it on Dwlee for now as 2nd biggest wagon. I don't have a read on T3 yet, so I'm not happy to switch over to the highest rn. I'll prioritise reading T3 if I get a chance.

[Oman]

Finally have a chance to get back into this. Thank you all for your few days of grace. Flight home was good. New job starting was good. Christmas party was good.

I'm going to read now.

[Oman]

UglyDuck just spent like 9 days preparing completely lukewarm recycled reads and I'm kind of surprised that's not getting as much attention as I'd hoped?

VOTE: UglyDuck this isn't for pressure I think he's fairly likely to actually flip red

This was actually a bit eye-opening for me. I didn't see it the first time, but after this priming I actually don't love UglyDuck's "lukewarm recycled reads" at all. V big flag for me. I don't think that sells the worst as town for me (bussing exists), but it's a good one.

UglyDuck just spent like 9 days preparing completely lukewarm recycled reads and I'm kind of surprised that's not getting as much attention as I'd hoped?

VOTE: UglyDuck this isn't for pressure I think he's fairly likely to actually flip red

VOTE: Uglyduck

Actually yea

This is a good point

This was almost entirely my reaction, in tone and vibe. Which frustrates me as someone who has been happy to vote Dwlee and explicitly see it through to elim.

@UglyDuck:

I looked over your reads list, who do you actually suspect right now?

DW is my top at this point. forgot to...

VOTE: DW

Flagging this as my feelings on it depend almost entirely on Dwlee's flip.

I feel like my suspicion of fua this game has been because every reason they've jumped on for voting people has been so

basic

but I recognze that not everyone thinks the same way I do, probably a big difference in playstyles here?

I don't like this because of how noncomittally it splits the difference. I have *such* a nullread on Retti coming into this post, and it's the kind of post where I can see scum using this to sprinkle a post that they can point back to later, without actually committing to anything.

...this game is going to give me a migraine

Mood.

For example...

I tr you off the vote thing, idk what any of the recent stuff is about

didn't read it

lol

lol indeed :/

They are not actively solving, they seem to be moving their vote from wagon to wagon based on who is easiest to kill/where the momentum is moving.

the progression from sheeping T3 by putting Scorp at E-1 and then voting T3 for T3's vote/push on Scorp is particularly egregious in terms of not making any sense.

They then moved off T3 before T3 even responded to vote for UglyDuck.

I don't hate a T3/Dwlee scumpair right now!

I am in the game!

For real though?

Egix96 is being replaced due to inactivity.

Ugh. D1 is gonna be a bit of a mess. Hopefully we got enough from egix and hoooopefully we get enough from Gamme to work something after the two flips between here and D2.

Let me check the current votecount and then put myself somewhere effective/stay here. I'm pretty sure Dwlee is e-2. Didn't claim when they said they were at e-1 (mistakenly), so I don't expect to hear a claim that moves my vote. But I just want to check where Ugly is.

[Oman]

My current position is that I could take a Dwlee or Uglyduck lim today without much sweat. 2 days to run, I could at this point shift to UglyDuck to force a claim... We've got a pretty good unspoken VT claim from Scorp and Dwlee.

If we're still in this two-wagon E-2 posn in about 12-24hrs I'll switch to UglyDuck to pop the claim and resolve out some more information.

[Oman]

Oman also seems like town

Thanks! sorry I don't have a favourable read on your predecessor. Fingers crossed you can offer us some more

[Oman]

Wagon origins D1 rarely factor into my scumreads. Rarely, but not never, scum are more likely to be opportunistic rather than proactive [citation needed]

[Oman]

Fuck off. Hahah

I logged in to switch my vote because I'm about to head to bed then do Family Christmas tomorrow (which means I might have reduced access for the next 24hrs).


uhhhhhh the doctor claim is WILD because it's a weird scum claim (cop provides better longevity as dr can protect. It makes you an easy kill target etc etc).

Shiiiiiit. I think I trust it for that reason. I don't think UD is doc-hunting with that.

Dwlee: I agreed with one statement you made. That's a) not a mind meld by any degree, and b) not something that will exclusively happen with town. It's a tiny interaction iin the context of a bigger game. I know, if you're town, that it's frustrating to hear that, and I'm sorry, mate. I know it's hard to see us click a bit and me still not trust you, but that's how I feel.


I'm not okay with an UD vote today. I'm still pro-Dwlee. I'd settle for Andres (though that's mostly just to clean up). I'd need to think a lot more on T3, I'll try to do a read tonight but no promises. Azaa I'm NOWHERE on yet.

[Oman]

I know I SRd Egix, but I'm happy to give Emerald some space to work in the game. They seem dope.

[Oman]

T3 I don't feel like I have much to go on. Not a lot of pushing, not a lot of votes. Defs not a SR, but also feels generous to call it Null.

[Oman]

Omgus, entirely. Unless you've got reasons to be suspicious of me besides "you agreed with me once and won't unvote me!"

[Oman]

Right so it's because I'm voting you and won't move off to the doctor, cool.

If you think there's an incongruity between my read on you and my vote on you, you don't understand my read on you

[Oman]

So I think we have this core misunderstanding, and it lays here:

I'm pretty frustrated with 782 if oman is town, which is where I was leaning before it was made. Has no reason to townread Uglyduck, and in fact has reasons to scumread him. Has reasons to townread me (I mean I'm assuming that's why you'd mention a mini mindmeld?)

Agreeing with someone isn't alignment indicative imo. 1) scum can say stuff that people want to hear, even when it's not their true belief and , 2) scum are just as likely to say stuff that is true because scum are informed and can therefore say stuff that is true. Me agreeing with your *stated* read on a post doesn't mean that I think that is *what you really think* because again, scum lie/misrepresent their opinions in ways that people want to agree with

by definition of the game

. In short: Just because you said a thing that I agree with, it doesn't make me think you're town. There are 35 pages. I'm not living and dying off one post.

In terms of your three point breakdown, I'm happy to unpack them each:

If UD's vote is scum-indicative on my town flip

Correct. I don't think UD's vote on you is *anything* if you're scum. But if you're town (which I doubt), there's an angle there for me to look next.

and I'm just probabilistically more likey to be town than scum

Probabilistic arguments like this are silly imo because EVERYONE is probabilistically more likely to be town than scum so we should just all vote for friendship every day and let them NK us off one by one? Of course not. By the same token, the % chance of whether you're town or scum is worth WAY less than my opinion from play.

AND there are reasons to townread me / scumread Uglyduck it just doesn't make sense for him to position like this imo

This is that core misunderstanding, right? That there are reasons to townread you. I don't. I know you see that post I wrote where I'm like "grr someone I think is scum made a good point" (Cue onion article), but that doesn't mean I think you're town. It doesn't give me pause. Any reason to scumread Uglyduck is way secondary to you. I would, however, prefer ANYTHING to a No Vote day, so, yeah, I was happy to take UD to claim. But that doesn't mean a) i prefer that wagon, or b) that I don't prefer yours.

Like I just get this overwhelming vibe of incongruency between thought and action, ESPECIALLY on a Uglyduck red flip, and this is where I'd go tomorrow if UD is red

That's a fair call. I can understand you seeing that. Especially in my response to UD's claim. If that happens, it's something we'll have to talk about. But right now I think you're scum and you're pushing on this point that I've gone over a few times that is basically just OMGUS now that you're the person in the room with the most fingers this late in the day.


For the town: A No elim day is so bad for us. Can we please make sure we clean this up soon. I've told you where I'm happy to vote. Let's make sure we do the least harmful thing here.

[Oman]

If ugly is scum (I know, I know) then the bottom of 782 feels like a telegraphed "I'll have uglyduck claim, then when they say doctor I guess I'll have no choice but to vote dwlee"

I mean that's usually how it goes when people claim doctor Claims are claims D1, that's just basic game play.

But I actually have given options other than you to which I'd happily and not-so-happily commit. I just think you're the best option rn.

[Oman]

You still have no stated reason to scumread me. This seems extremely fake

UUUUUGH. Fine. I'm not taking the bait any more. I've put my thoughts out, I've put my votes down. I've made my moves. You don't like them, you think it's fake, whatever mate. I've tried. You don't wanna believe me, you don't gotta.

[Oman]

You still have no stated reason to scumread me. This seems extremely fake

UUUUUGH. Fine. I'm not taking the bait any more. I've put my thoughts out, I've put my votes down. I've made my moves. You don't like them, you think it's fake, whatever mate. I've tried. You don't wanna believe me, you don't gotta.

No you haven't??? Wtf

Haven't I? Shit. Sorry. That's my bad, I thought I'd made this post earlier (I've been on your wagon for a while, I thought I'd scattered these through for a long time).

The Scorp E-1 was ridonkulously bad for a number of reasons. That was a volatile wagon that didn't need more fire and you/Jackson had posted VERY VERY little before making one of the least productive and potentially most harmful moves in the game so far. It truly looked like opportunism, on a wagon that was emotional enough that someone feasibly could have hammered and talked their way out of it. "Hammering at this point is a death sentence" was your stance, and I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I think with how salty Scorp was acting, Town absolutely could have hammered him and then been follow-up pushed, or scum could have done it and then walked away from explosions. I don't think it's NEARLY as reductive as you put it, and for that to be your first action, so blase, SUCKS to me.

Your reaction to Natalya and now me is incredibly defensive. To the point that it feels scummy. For the same reason I read ScorpTown for their response to pressure, I almost entirely read you as scum because of how much you've overblown Natalya and now me for looking in your direction. As I said, it's big OMGUS energy. Obviously with me you've got a real reason to be salty because apparaently I never put this in text, and that does suck, I'm sorry, especially for saying I have and acting like that. But it's still super defensive. And perhaps most telling of all, a scumtell I'm very familiar with, is being upset not because you are being pressured, but becasue you're being pressured for

a reason you think is unfair

. Natalya's meta stuff, and my agreeing with you thing. It reeks a lot of someone who is finding the pressure a little unfair because they think they deserve to be cleaner than they are.

[Oman]

i have a hard time believing dwlee actually scumreads uglyducks. the wagon analysis is not my favorite either. i feel like there's just a bit too much focus on how much they are frustrated as opposed to content. in general, the reasons to vote people aren't going to be that good. votes are just ways to express that we agree with a certain thought. nothing more nothing less.

dwlee seems to flip between frustrated/ateing and extremely towny solving from these last couple posts and i feel like it's sort of the panic of a player who is struggling to figure out which scum tactic they should use. i might be thinking too much but im willing to mislim town on day one because i think this flip gives good information anyways. the worse case scenario is just a pr out and that sucks but we'll still be fine honestly.

Extremely towny solving and you want to flip me

And a touch of Beetlejuice

Yea you're scum

Oh this is the other one. I knew there was a third in the pattern but had to iso you to find it, sorry to break it out like this.

You get really shirty whenever someone looks at you. It feels too volatile to be town, with your experience.

[Oman]

Literally the only people you've voted for are voting for you rn, except for Scorp which I think was bad for another reason. It all sucks.

[Oman]

RE: you. Didn't you yell at Nat for doing meta reads and now you're defending yourself by saying 'that's just how I play'?

you also never obvtowned. You really need to be more realistic with yourself here. If you're scum and you think you are so squeaky clean, or you're town and you think you're above reproach: You're wrong. Again, alignment aside, you really have to come to terms with how this game works, and the fact that *someone somwhere* is going to think you're scum and you can't just chuck a fit about that. To be clear: I think you're scum here. But to be also clear: I think it's a really shitty way to scumhunt if you are town.

RE: Aza, I don't love responses that are "I have a gut feeling that I'll follow up on later". But it almost all feels like someone new to me. Where Aza has expressed opinions (Especially #575, #809, #817) I really agree with them in a way that I think is town. Especially Aza distancing from UD in a way that I wouldn't expect scum to do either if it was Scum/Town or Scum/Scum. I wish there was more, tbh. Also, and perhaps more importantly, I think the only reason you're on Aza is because they voted for you and/or looked your way and you get super personally offended about that (in a way that I think is scummy).

[Oman]

And you simultaneously acknowledge that it's valid for me to react like this when YOU HADN'T STATED REASONS but then saying that me reacting like this is scummy. Which is it?

Me not posting reasons was unfair. But let's also not pretend I'm the only one you're reacting like this toward. Context and big picture is more relevant than a single person or a single post or a single conversation. Patterns and webs, mate.

[Oman]

After how much content I posted, too, I just don't buy it.

I legit hope you're scum. If after as much mafia as you've played you honestly believe yourself to be beyond any suspicion I'm fuckin' FLABBERGASTED.

Playstyle isn't meta ffs

Meta, short for metagame, is a term for the knowledge of how a player or moderator will act based on previous experience.

I disagree entirely, and I think you know that. I think you're grasping here.

[Oman]

I'm gonna head to bed now, and then as I said I might have limited access over the next 24.

I know you've got a lot of experience which is why I'm finding it so hard to believe townyou is this incredulous about people suspecting them. The whole thing is really reductive and poorly accepts the spirit of the game.

Is nap time, i'm sorry that you're not satisfied with the reasons that people suspect you, but like, it doesn't sound like you would ever find any reason satisfying enough. It sounds like anyone who suspects you is scummy for being so wrong because you are "obvtown" . And if that's your understanding of the situation, I honestly don't know how to engage with it in a way that's productive. I guess the important thing is: It doesn't matter how you feel about the votes on you. What matters is what the town (collective) decide to do in the next day and a half.

[Oman]

i actually don't think Dwlee's hammer is a scumtell. Don't hate it. If I could get on I'd have hammered myself if I didn't think T3 wagon would get resolved in time. I still don't love the OMGUS, but I'm not going to vote until I've been able to reread the last 20 pages with the info we've got.


Shame to lose the worst here. They were lovely.

[Oman]

I've read back through those 20 pages, and honestly, I'm still hard on Dwlee for the same reasons. Especially insofar as the last two pages reinforce that. It's hard to consider Dwlee as "scumhunting" or "solving" when they're just so obsessed with who is voting them. Even seeing the "if i was a vig I'd vig you tonight" is such a damn frustrating thing to read because if you're scum it all tracks so hard, but if you're town it's so unhelpfully antagonistic.


A vote on Dwlee is -3, which I'm not sweating right now, but I am going to hold any vote past -3 until we see some more from the forgotten members of this game.

[Oman]

oops goofed and didn't vote

VOTE: Dwlee99

[Oman]

Ugggggh

[Oman]

Damn, Retti kinda unleashing the fury..

I know, real as hell.

[Oman]

Well! I got absolutely played by fua and misread scorp all the way through. Really enjoyed seeing how wrong I was there. Well played!

And, uh, sorry town. Rough game in a lot of regards.

Feel bad for Oman to come back to this, not the best experience to have. The normal queue in particular just seems to have scumsided meta, unfortunately, for a variety of reasons. Win rates favored scum back in the day, too, though, feel like not a lot has changed in that regard. (there was a lot of lurking and replacements a decade ago!) I swear not all games are this bad, though.

(did they not get sent a result on me because he died? shocked they weren't calling for my head in the dead thread)

Thanks for thinking of me. I didn't get a result on you, no, otherwise VERY MUCH YES It's not really about win-rates though. Games can be fun, can be tough and interesting, without being about scum winrates. For me a good marker is what's the town-scum elim split. If you're just getting scum last day, that's worse than random change, and it suggests the town has not got it all together. The best games go back and forth a bit, trying to find those elusive connections.

I really thoroughly did not enjoy so much of this game. I can't believe the amount of stupid (and I mean that very strongly) anti-town play comes out from townies and is just accepted. Not just like "oh I'm really well intentioned but leading a wagon on a fellow townie" but actively slamming down quick hammers, strict OMGUS with a refusal to move past, a mix of spam and silence, like over all just...I can't imagine actively scumhunting in this environment. Like, even with y'know, being the baddie, Fua did more to help the town than most of the town players (not slots, but players). There's a lot of people who seem to be more committed to maintaining their brand than playing to a wincon, which was culturally not something we encouraged.

I also want to give my thanks to GB and Datisti, as well as to both our reviewers, for getting this game off the deck. I'm a little culture-shocked by what is considered "normal" in terms of both roles and modifiers. I actually read up on the whitelisting thread when I got my role PM. I was especially shocked to see so many modifiers on so many roles. I'm happy to express it as being from another time, but the amount of modifications and caveats on this game definitely made me feel like I couldn't make assumptions about the setup, which I've always found to be a benefit for a normal game. Defs not a comment on

anyone

in the mod/setup team for this game! Just the rules and expectations have changed while mine have been cryogenically frozen.


It was *wild* to be a part of this game. A really unenjoyable wild with some really enjoyable people. Was lovely to spend time with the group at least. I don't know if I will play again, because I feel like there's a lot that has moved passed me here. But I'm glad I exposed myself to the general goings on of mafia play on ms.net in 2021/22. Thanks for hanging out!

[Oman]

Really, it's a cultural thing. Like with the quickhammers because "that's just how I do". Spamming, all that stuff. Its just cultural. That's why had the big discussions around Lim All Liars back when I was a kid here: How do we discourage play that is anti-town at the group level, when that behaviour is fun, easy, and/or adventageous at the personal level? We even had a rough time with some people playing deliberately scummy in town games to build meta for their scum games.

It was disruptive then and it's disruptive now. Seems like the culture has drastically shifted to be more okay with it, though.