Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]

[joqiza]

Infinite town. You go on the site to towntell, but the towntelling never stops coming out of your posts. You have to start refreshing the thread every two minutes to keep up. You try to clench your hands closed but that makes your insides hurt. The towntelling accelerates. You call 911. The paramedics call for doctors. The doctors call for specialists. The story trends on Twitter. You turn down talk show appearances. Your keyboard fails. People form a cult. Your computer is finished. Volunteers arrive with mutes and sitebans. You are completely used to the post spam. The towntelling accelerates. You are moved to a personal thread in your own sub-forum. The towntelling accelerates. The volunteers abandon the site and flee to MafiaUniverse. The towntelling accelerates. A candlelight vigil forms around the site. One of the workers starts reading and can't free himself. The towntelling accelerates. Someone tracks you down IRL and tries to disconnect your wi-fi. Your posts keep coming anyway. The towntelling accelerates. The force now propels you forward and upward. Vigil-goers grab at your legs. The towntelling ignites from their candles. The Facebook live event hits 1 million viewers. The towntelling accelerates. You are 30 feet in the air. The fire engulfs the vigil and your house. 60 feet. The towntelling accelerates. The torrent underneath you is deafening. 5 million Facebook live viewers. You try to close up shop but the thread disintegrated long ago. 120 feet up. Your house explodes. The towntelling accelerates. 1000 feet. You are now tracked on radar. You try to change your angle of ascent but you should have thought of that way earlier. The towntelling accelerates. 4,000 feet. NORAD upgrades to DEFCON 3. Concentric circles of fire engulf your city. The towntelling accelerates. You have broken the sound barrier. 30,000 feet. You no longer take in enough oxygen to sustain consciousness. 60,000 feet. CNN is reporting on all the post-count records you've broken. 200,000 feet. You are no longer alive. The towntelling accelerates. Your body disintegrates but your posts keep coming. NASA can no longer track you. You break the light-speed barrier and we can no longer bear witness. The towntelling accelerates. Forever.

[joqiza]

[joqiza]

town lol hammers all the time

Going to ask you to cite examples of town lolhammering someone in RVS because it's pretty rare in my experience. I'm not sure I believe that

you

believe that you were just going to get run up and die.

[joqiza]

I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.

Your post doesn't actually match what she's saying. Andante's claim is that

town

lol hammers all the time, not scum. Her top SR is Roadkill for putting her on E-1, the implication being that Roadkill is scum hoping a town might lolhammer her.

There are two questions here. One is whether what Andante is saying is true. I think it's not. I don't think town lolhammer in RVS very much, I think early E-1 wagons are pretty standard, and if Roadkill is scum I don't think that's his angle. The more important question is whether Andante believes what she's saying to be true. Maybe that's the case, and she's had specific experiences that lead her to this belief-state. Hell, maybe I'm just wrong on my first assumption and town really does lolhammer all the time.

I'm writing this post because you said her post was NAI. I think that's sort of true but I found the way you said it reductive. It's an early lead that might go somewhere and we shouldn't brush it aside. I'm not condemning her for it but I want her to explain once she's back from V/LA.

[joqiza]

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

[joqiza]

VOTE: Wh4t

[joqiza]

This on the other hand is bad

no it's not

Oh well if you say so.

Everyone, Esther has clarified that her post isn't bad, nothing to see here.

"Bad" is a loose term, anyway. What did you even mean when you called her post bad? Did you mean it was a post a wolf was more likely to make? Did you mean it was anti-town or illogical? Did you simply disagree with what it was saying? Those are all valid interpretations and even though I assume it's the first I can't actually be sure.

You could be calling her post bad and she could be denying it and you might even both agree with each other but you have different definitions.

I've used "bad" as casual shorthand myself so I'm not trying to act superior. I've just given it some thought and maybe instead of calling things "bad" (or, on that subject, using the impossibly vague and somewhat offensive "gross") we could make it a habit to explain what we mean in precise terms.

[joqiza]

actually he was just third on both wagons, that's not anywhere near as bad.

To put what I said into practice... I'm assuming bad means wolfy here, but why is 4th, 3rd... wolfier than 3rd, 3rd?

[joqiza]

I'm not surprised at the adverse response. No one likes it when their use of language is critiqued. I would just say this, though. I think that we as humans are generally biased to think our arguments and reasoning are more self-evident than they actually are to other people.

When I read 16, I also thought it might be "bad." But my bad is different from your bad. My bad was: I doubt the speed of the wagon indicates anything at all. But my "bad" feels different from your "bad" because your bad is more about towny vs. wolfy whereas I see poorly applied resistance reads from town all the time and so I shrugged that off. What makes it more complex is that I did also wonder if 16 was a wolfy post. Not for the reason you said, but rather because "kinda idk" seemed wolfy to me from what I doubt is anything other than random pattern matching.

I know phenomenal players who just quote posts, say "bad" or "wolfy" or variations of that and follow-up only when necessary. They read consistently above rand, have a reputation for doing so, and effect the chops they want. I'm not arguing you can't make that playstyle work and if you want to play closer to that paradigm be my guest. I'm more quietly dreaming. One last thing to note (and this one I know will fall on deaf ears) is that calling people's posts bad is just mean.

I think 39 is a good post. It's encouraging communication and is very noble and I think it had an effect on how you wrote 58. And if you keep it in mind my job will be accomplished whether you admit it or not.

[joqiza]

As for 19, I will also accept games from Andante where town lolhammered outside of RVS.

[joqiza]

Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk.

It's just something that has bothered me for a long time. Quote a post and call it bad. Call it weird. Worse, call it "gross" or "disgusting." Quote a post and say "I hate this." Not saying any of those latter things have happened this game, but they've happened in my other games before.

Why is it so hard to call things wolfy? I don't even really like the word scummy. Scummy is still kind of offensive. No one wants to be scummy. Wolfy seems fine. Wolfy is like, I love dogs.

[joqiza]

I really need Andante to come back. My train of thought is unresolved there and I feel like everything will click once I get a read on her.

[joqiza]

I'm annoyed. Someone get in here and fight me geriatric style. We can throw wheelchairs and shit

[joqiza]

Andante is sorta townie.

[joqiza]

The real and sad tea is that Dwlee probably doesn't make that post if he's partnered with Andante. Which is devastating because I thought everyone else who talked besides those two has been at least a little bit towny and I was starting to get hopeful.

[joqiza]

Why are you acting confused about why I'm "fascinated" with you when I said exactly why I read your post the way you did and what I'd like to see from you?

Also, you should combine your catch-up posts here so as not to exhaust your post count.

[joqiza]

Andante your 83 is ridiculously uncharitable.

Do you really not understand why I was skeptical of your opening post? It's not something I've ever actually seen and asking you to give examples is not something crazy.

You can't even provide any examples. It would take one post to say "yeah here you go." In theory you shouldn't have to reread

your own games

in order to find one, that's what I'd have to do to verify it, but you'd just remember and be like... "Yeah, here you go. Let's move on."

FWIW I was prepared to accept something like "Yeah idk I can't think of any examples, guess I just spoke heat of the moment." But this is... A lot

Your other comments on my posts are so aggressive and... Unpleasant, some not even making any reference to what my alignment would be just attacking the way I post. Nowhere in my suspicion of you did I ever address you or treat you like that and given that we know each other and have played with each other before I want to believe it's just because I caught you and not because you actually think any of this stuff?

64 "I really need Andante to come back. My train of thought is unresolved there and I feel like everything will click once I get a read on her." Is this to just buy you time to actually put any effort into this? "Oh I don't have to try till she shows up and links games" like, I'm pretty sure Dwlee was there for turbo mode game, and you're all " they ain't partners"

What does this reference to Dwlee and the turbo game even mean? It just confuses me.

[joqiza]

62 "Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk." wow. pointless to go after how people talk? who'd have guessed?

Why even post this. So unnecessary and mean spirited. I hope your wifi goes down next time you wanna watch Netflix

[joqiza]

Andante idgaf if you tr me or Sr me. If you don't think my iso is towny I'm w/e, but if you make posts like 83 you can expect a response.

@SA what did I do to be your strongest TR
@mcesther why did you vote me when you did? You said you were thinking of voting me earlier but didn't find Umlaut's points convincing, then you voted me after andante posted. Does this imply you found andante's posts convincing or is something else going on?

VOTE: Three I want to see what shakes out from this.

All of you are wolves imo until I find mafia, if I had to bet my life on Villa reads it would be umlaut and roadkill but atm I have low confidence across the board. Players like mc Esther have towny pings at times but it's not like anything they've said is really unfakeable from a wolf alignment. Will expand on all of this in a couple hours when I'm on lunch break

[joqiza]

Will expand on all of this in a couple hours when I'm on lunch break

EBWOP: will finish it this evening, ran out of time

[joqiza]

Umlaut what you are saying with your analogy doesn't feel right to me because I wasn't really trying to catch Andante in a contradiction, I was trying to understand if it was plausible for her to believe what she purported to believe. To reframe your analogy fmpov, it would be like this:

Alice tells Bob, "Watch out while you're walking around outside today, there have been a lot of shark attacks in the area"
Bob asks, "When has there been a shark attack recently on land?"

After some consideration I figured Andante could fear being lolhammered in RVS from seeing lolhammer outside of RVS, and that wouldn't be that much of a logical leap, but at the time I just thought "Do you really think this is gonna happen now?"

Frankly I wasn't so much looking for her to actually put forward an example, I haven't even looked at the game she linked yet, I was just curious how she'd respond. I think I said what I was looking for in either direction earlier, but she kind of chose this third way which was over the top flaming all my posts and I'm still mixed in how I feel about it

[joqiza]

like there are definitely joq posts I looked at like "I really don't tr joq" and him being fascinated by me here feels like maf trying to take advantage of the fact I've put 0 effort into this. it's like "Hey look!! yall may not tr me, but andante over there? looking like a real good vote!" like, just chill, it's still D1, I was busy IRL, here now... thus I'll be working on reads. Umlaut town is something I feel good about though, also have only skimmed so far.

This is a misrep because I expressed my suspicion of Andante long before anyone outed any kind of read on me. Also, I fail to see how anyone actually reading the game critically could propose that this is what's happening when I basically made clear that I was waiting for her to come back rather than immediately condemning her. Asserting that someone has not towntold to you yet is not equivalent to calling them scum.

2/10 - doing 1 post per person I think, just gotta figure stuff out

wh4t has less content than me?? an rvs vote + this?? It genuinely doesn't feel like there's any effort even here, like "you said something was bad? bad isn't a reason to SR, what about it is bad" that's kinda the vibe I get, 4 TRs and no reason for any? "I'm on my phone so I cant" like, you could give post numbers "I liked post 21 from SA" or whatever, like, yes I know we have limited postcount, but it's not an excuse to not give reasonings for reads, - just realized joq said the "bad part" I hated, so like, are you agreeing that joq had the bad post?? either way, for this being your ONLY post of anything. this is terrible, looks like maf posting once a day to avoid prods.
If you're calling 4 people town, I want something, or an immediate followup. "I'll explain later" ok, it's a new day now and still 0 explanation.

I actually kind of agree / like this post, although it feels hasty.

4/10
has the highest postcount here - that alone means nothing, but I did notice that

ok, most of these posts are saying nothing, like you're all "go show me where town lolhammers" like what? do you want me to waste posts on that? waste time talking about something that barely applies here? I've had plenty of games recently, E-1's just got yeeted cause why not? and honestly, I'd probably yeet an e-1 for lols, depends, but that's besides the point.

It is absurd that you phrase this as "wasting posts" when, as you ended up doing, you can just link the game along with another post. Given that Andante did eventually link me a game I will forgive the initial deflection here.

then in 23 you go on to talk about whatever lolhammer related thing, that again, REALLY doesn't matter here

Rereading this again makes me lean wolf on it because she's trying to characterize my request as something out of the ordinary. I feel my request was reasonable and this feels like it could be gaslighting.

40 is asking a meaningless question, feels like you're just trying to look busy, like I don't get the point of it

When I look at my question here I think it's actually quite a good one. Esther's 35 was not at all straightforward, and as I look at your post here, I actually get the sense that you read my 40 with my ISO open without any regard for what esther's post actually was and whether it made sense for me to ask that when I did. It's true mafia often ask questions just to look busy, but to call it meaningless is wrong... we derived meaning from esther's response in 55. I think if you were considering my alignment genuinely, you would have included some reference to 35 here.

60 is all "the word bad can be used so many ways!!" like, an essay over using the word bad? how is that even relevant? who cares? you're the only one caring/trying to make a thing out of it

No real comment here.

61 yet another post telling me to link games, I'm not reading my past games, but there has definitely been speed hammers where town and maf hammered an e-1 like, a full DAY lasting a few hours? yeah.

See above re: initial deflection.

62 "Meh whatever. I'm thinking about it more and getting after people on language use is pointless. Y'all can talk how you want to talk." wow. pointless to go after how people talk? who'd have guessed?

Still don't know what mindset is required to post a comment like this. It's pretty hard not to see this as an attempt to belittle my concerns / make me look ridiculous in order to discredit my suspicion of her.

64 "I really need Andante to come back. My train of thought is unresolved there and I feel like everything will click once I get a read on her." Is this to just buy you time to actually put any effort into this? "Oh I don't have to try till she shows up and links games" like, I'm pretty sure Dwlee was there for turbo mode game, and you're all " they ain't partners"

I still have no idea what the Dwlee turbo mode game comment here means, and it's weird to me that she typed this up and posted it as if I would have any kind of understanding as to how whatever she is talking about should influence a teamread on them.

so that is the entirety of joqiza's ISO, and I don't like it, most posts here, and wh4t put more effort into the actual game... wh4t gave "reads" there is NOTHING of that sort in joqiza's ISO, joqiza probably maf

No further comment.

[joqiza]

Well, I did add "to me." That clarifies that it's my perspective rather than an objective truth. (The idea is I acknowledge/take ownership of my misreads and don't blame others for not towntelling in the way I expect them to.)

But I mean, yes. I do it all the time and I'm a hypocrite. I was cursing myself for getting on my high horse earlier today because I sorta just want to get toxic.

I guess it's the effort that counts?

[joqiza]

5/10

I wouldn't necessarily say mc esther's ISO is bad, but it's also not great, first half of 72 screams maf, but 2nd half I can see town saying and actually kinda like. I can see 55 being town that just realized "oh wait I was wrong in that thinking" I've definitely had arguments like that where I go "wait it's not how I thought?"

I'd like to just see more in general from mc esther, I know overall it's a lower postcount situation, but still, not a whole lot given for TRs/SRs on people, voting wh4t without saying why? like, as I mentioned earlier about someone, a simple reason is good enough. "I'm voting wh4t now cause they're not talking" ok cool, a reason is better than no reason.

overall - need more from mc, basically agreeing exactly with 70 from Three

Why does the first half of 72 "scream" maf to you? That part of the post seemed fine to me. I think I agree with your take on 55. Note this is mc esther's response to the post that Andante accused of being a meaningless question. Rest here seems okay to me.

6/10

LOL I love the Dwlee/Roadkill stuff, it honestly feels like something I'd do as town, like, none of that feels forced, it's like a natural "haha got you both, vote your partner" whether or not it was a serious sr doesn't matter, it feels like something more likely to come from town. 31 is awesome the reasoning feels like genuine town to me, not maf stuck in a "oh no. must explain what I said. uhhh" only exception to me loving 31 is if joq and you are partners, cause it's either a town response, or maf talking to a partner, with 0 fear of being SRed for reasons. - which is awesome news that I don't tr joq. making life so much easier!

rest of your ISO is alright. it's like, if joq is town, I have no doubt you're town.if joq is maf, you could be town or maf. So I guess I'll go with town lean here, not as strong of a TR as Umlaut,Three, and mc esther might be above you, or yall are equal right now, thinking about it, I'm a tad paranoid of Sleepless/joq team, but I'm sure as there's more content, I'll be ok with a TR or I'll SR you, I need either more from you, or just need to let time go by and see

63 is "Umlaut, how is explaining my reads on Dwelee and Roadkill fluffy? Also your reads are about opposite mine so... yeah. This game could be awkward."
like, you're acknowledging opposite reads? you don't want to try and explain why a sr of umlaut is town? or why an umlaut tr is maf? instead of just calling it awkward, you could work with umlaut? just an idea. another perspective can sometimes help with reading people. Actually, this post is just telling me I need to revisit my read here later, we're gonna go withSleepless not town, but I'm also not entirely sold on Sleepless maf yet, so just in the middle, definitely want more in terms of content

I guess I don't really have a problem with anything here. The conditional TR of sleepless is a bit of a complex thought, actually. This is the first post where Andante seems to go back and forth at all on my alignment.

7/10 LOL ok, I have an ISO pulled up, and I type, I've realized not all my posts seem super clear with who I'm talking about. each person has their own post, and no I'm not concerned about post count, burn 8 catching up/making my thoughts clear on each person, leaves with 2 left, and there's 10 more soon

~ This post is on Dwlee (see, super clear! post before this was Sleepless) ~
lol Dwlee trying to pocket me I see... also if you know pony? idk you XD (maybe I do... idk lol)

I like 21!! it's like, kinda sticking up for me when I wasn't here "yeah it's not AI" like, thank you!! lol me getting hammered there was a genuine concern, cause I feel like I'm definitely the kind of person to get lolhammered
ok, thoughts on dwlee!
32 good reaction to the "bus your partner" also, did you just call out a bad read on you from Sleepless? like a forced read from sleepless? (ughh my brain doesn't work in ISO mode like this, but it's the easiest way to catch up.. Something there with Sleepless? who knows??)

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

"My post was in reference to the fact that we only get 10 posts per day, but someone has to be the first to use one to get the ball rolling onto something. " like yeah, I think it was fin, even if it was a wagon on me, like, someone has to do something, and I fully believe maf was more likely to just blindly sheep a wagon than start one

My response to 38: Same. thus I signed up for this to litrerally just to show yall I can play off 10 posts a day instead of 100 lol

51 -LOL yeah! roadkill brings up a great point!! Why no wild spam this game?? suspicious.

57 are good takes, and the way you said them, you're not like trying to go "HEY WORLD HERE'S REAS!! TR ME!!" just a casual "thinking this"

Response to 74- what do you mean no memes?

uh yeah, so Dwlee is probably town, town lean, like, they're solving, but not solving for the purpose of being TRed (I think that makes sense) like, maf cares about appearance or coasts, there's no in between ever, So far my reads are looking like:
Town to Scum:
Three/Umlaut - tied for towniest
Dwlee
mc esther
Sleepless
Joqiza
and I need more from wh4t before I put them anywhere, I'm not putting someone in a reads list off 1 post

I'm pretty suspicious of this read on Dwlee because I don't think Dwlee has been particularly towny. I think he has been more null and I'm not sure I believe how Andante is taking his posts here and reaching the conclusion that he's one of the towniest, unless she's just particularly partial to his defense of her. I think this could be a pocket attempt.

[joqiza]

I don't have a line-by-line breakdown of 89. There's nothing in there that strikes me too much, I mostly just think it's a whole lot of words that results in basically a nothing-read.

Last thing I will note is that I did read Andante's linked game. Hammer as referenced occurs here: viewtopic.php?p=13176390#p13176390. Not sure if anyone other than me even gave a shit about that. I don't even particularly care anymore as it feels like there are more AI things available.

I'm going to

VOTE: Andante

at least pending a response, because, I struggle to interpret a lot of these posts as town. One thing that I'm almost certain of now is that Andante did not read the game when she returned to thread, instead she started opening up ISO's one-by-one and started doing her write-ups on slots. I think this based on her own comments directly, and just a general sense I had that she's unaware of context (i.e., calling my question to esther meaningless, while deriving a read from esther's response to that same question.)

This method of reading itself is not necessarily something a villager couldn't do, but it's a strange choice to make in such a short game, and feels indicative of a wolf forcing content by checking off the ISO's one-by-one.

The reason I waited a bit to go through these posts is because I wanted to make a response that wasn't based on emotion/partiality.

I do have some reservations. One is that Andante's sudden string of posting demonstrated a lot of energy which did feel a bit towny to me while it was being delivered. The second is that I wonder if Andante is spewed town by the threadstate, as Dwlee/Three (and Umlaut, I should note, though I read him as uninformed), and indirectly mc esther, have essentially defended her posts or sided with her. I am encountering a sort of resistance that, in my experience, has not signalled d1 wolf flip.

Regardless, her posts feel

bad

enough that I'm happy voting here.

[joqiza]

do you usually pbp someone so comprehensively just for scumreading you? idk, "comprehensively" is the wrong word because you no-commented about half of it, but the point is that you quoted (all of? a huge portion of?) a scumread just to say "no im not" and then omgus (okay, "omgus" is kinda uncharitable here, but i think your case is overall very unconvincing). i'll admit that i want to see an answer to "why did she evaluate a question she got information from as non-useful?"; overall though, your posts seem, idk, kinda overblown as a response to an [imo] thoroughly ordinary (if a little long and questionably-structured) scumread.

Very dismissive post tbh.

I went through all her posts and tried to break them down because I found parsing her posts pretty difficult. Either she is just thoughtspamming as town or she is writing a gish gallop as a wolf. Either way it poorly formatted and I had to convert it into something easier for my brain.

The other thing is that she is going through ISO's and referencing people's posts, so it's useful to me to break down her lines like I did so that I could open up the posts she is referencing and try to determine if it makes sense for her to believe what she's posting based on what she's reading.

I suspect no one else actually read her posts closely.

[joqiza]

Andante has zero reason to tryhard like that given gamestate if scum. Don't understand the vote there at all

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand this. What was the "given game state" and why wouldn't scum try-hard in it?

[joqiza]

To respond to 120:

I'm in a position right now where I'm pushing a scumread and getting absolutely no traction. Perhaps contrary to popular belief I do not see this as a good signal. From my perspective all the points I'm bringing up are being ignored and Andante is being defended for reasons I don't think are particularly AI.

There are two universes in which this could occur. In the universe where she's a wolf, she has at most one wolf partner to defend her; in this universe there are multiple villagers who are just completely blind to her scumminess. The other universe is the one where she's town and in this one there are two wolves who could take the position to defend her, my scumread is based on my own flawed perception, and there are villagers defending her because they're picking up on the town notes that I'm unable to see. When I compare the two universes I need to ask myself the question, "Do I really think I'm smarter than everyone else?" And the answer right now is, not really, no.

I've correctly tunneled a deepwolf against thread consensus before, but in those situations I've been very, very confident that said person would flip red and this is not the case yet.

My vote here is far from toothless though because this kind of thread state read is only one thing I'm considering and I have enough problems with her posts that currently outweigh it. I want to see what her answer is to what I brought up.

To respond to 119: I'd like to townread the effort, too. It's strange to me that your response to my case is simply that you "Don't understand the vote." If you are town I'd expect you to be trying to parse my motivations and your response is as if I placed down a naked vote without further clarification. What is your read on my motivations? And do you have a response to the specific points I brought up about her?

[joqiza]

@Andante

Asking for my reads on the other slots is a fair ask so I will do so. If you're town I am begging you to give the game at least one chronological readthrough or skim when you catch up. I have nothing against you ISOing but it feels like you are picking out individual posts without any idea of the context they exist in.

Also, as for responding, it would help if you respond to the specific questions I asked you. My reads on the rest of the game are as follows. (You asked for it so here comes the spam.)

~

First of all the two slots I'd put as town are

Umlaut

and

Roadkill

. Aka if a bookmaker were to offer me odds at rand, I'd bet some money on them being town. But not an enormous amount. Of those two,

Umlaut

is my strongest TR by far. His posts demonstrate he's both paying close attention to the game and thinking critically about it. His read on Dwlee in 58, the way he considered my posts there, and the analogy he provided in 99, just really feels like town thought to me. It would not, like, absolutely shatter my universe for him to be scum, but if he is we are all fucked since he's already capable at playing at a level at which he won't get caught. I can go into more detail if needed, but it's somewhat hard for me to articulate, and it seems like a consensus read anyway.

Roadkill

is my other townread. This one isn't as strong but I noticed he is paying incredibly close attention to the game as well. For example, in 68 he pointed out that Umlaut has sort of parroted other arguments in thread, which is something I also noticed. His take on was the exact same as mine, too, because he didn't necessarily see it as a scumtell but more as something

curious

. His tone in general feels inquisitive in a towny way. He has fallen off a bit but promised to catch up today.

So, starting with a base of those two slots, we can try to reason out who is scum in a universe where we are both town. You asked me to think of it as finding your partners, but that won't necessarily work for me. For example, if you were to flip red, one of your potential partners might be Sleepless Assassin, because of the post where you said you'd have no doubt that he's town if I flip town. That seems like an ideal if possibly too blatant way to lim a townie and townread a partner. However, that connection only holds if you're red.

The other thing is that there is a very specific gamestate present if you're town. Although I've made it clear now that I'm still considering, I think at first it might seem that I'm very locked into my scumread. And from you, it would certainly appear the case that you were committed to scumreading me. So mafia will be playing around that accordingly and using the TvT as a vehicle to get through today, and possibly tomorrow. I've been keeping my eyes open and analyzing accordingly.

~

First is

mc esther.

I thought her vote on 84 might be opportunistic, given I didn't think your case was convincing. On the other hand, I could see the response just coming because, she started TRing you, and given the context you being town automatically raises my scum equity. I'm not really sure yet. I've looked some of her posts because they feel like she is being honest about her process, and in posts like 55 she says things that are basically like, "it just felt that way to me" and I do kind of intuit how she could feel that way. I think that is difficult to fake as maf and have it actually hit right. I also like that she questioned my resistance read in 120 because this makes sense for her specifically to question, given the way she was reading resistance earlier in the game. So, this slot could be town.

Next is

Sleepless Assassin

. Frankly I am inclined to this slot because he defended me in 102 and I would love to believe that this is just town with a good read on me. However, realistically, I'm not sure that anything precludes that from being a pocket. Looking at his other posts I'm mixed. One thing that was felt weird to me at the time was the fact that after our discussion about town not really lolhammering, he went ahead and scumread Roadkill for the E-1 thing without really seeming to directly reference the conversation we just had. So this is contrarian, but I'm not sure if it's in a towny way or scummy way. I guess I don't know. His early reasoning on both Dwlee and Roadkill felt and still feels flimsy, but it was also early day 1. I think I'm not really townreading this slot, but I do want it to be town. I also kinda think mafia would just angle a TvT to get me limmed rather than knight for me but w/e.

Dwlee

kinda sus because he just seems to be slapping the TR on you without really digging into why or where a push from you is happening. I'm referring to 21, 74, and 116. 74 was particularly eyebrow-raising to me because you hadn't posted at all yet so he'd just gone from saying one line from you is NAI to saying you were towny without really clarifying. That all said, as dumb as it is I like how he said "kinda townie" in 74 because it feels like he is kind of sheepish in saying it but feels the need to say it anyway, which would feel like a thing a villager would do. IDFK this dude needs to make their thoughts clear.

Wh3t

is just wildcard slot to me rn, first glance was that I thought he was being a contrarian asshole to me and I townread it, second glance was whatever those four townreads need to be explained. Now I'm just waiting on the replacement.

Three

I don't think is particularly scummy from just his own posts but I'm suspicious of how he's seemed to stay out of the conflict between our slots entirely. He is confirmed to be here due to 106 so he should have a stance on your alignment and mine by this point. He is saying some of the right things at the right time for me, such as TR'ing Umlaut and Roadkill when I did, but I don't vibe with all his reasoning. I.e. he ostensibly TR's Roadkill for pushing us out of RVS which seems... IDK actually as I type this it seems w/e. This slot is where I'd expect a wolf to be in a TvT but that's circumstantial and it might even just be obvious town, in which case I will probably get lambasted in every direction for daring to SR it and then I will know.

~

Tried to format this as best I could, I know it's a lot. I'll have a bit more time this evening when I get back from work.

[joqiza]

Y'all should go back and look at my 9 again, btw. Right now I'm 30 feet up in the air.

[joqiza]

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?

To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.

Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.

Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.

Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.

[joqiza]

however...

this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?

and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?

(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)

also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?

[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)

My surprise isn't that her posts were ISO's. It was that she hadn't read the game first, and was saying as much, unabashedly.

I'll do my best to explain this. The initial suspicion I had was that she was a wolf picking things out of my ISO, but even in this universe I had, it would still involve her having read through the game first.

Like in my view the diametric opposition is:
- Town reads the game, might open up an ISO to try to get a better read at a slot, with that game context in their head
- Wolf reads the games, might open up an ISO to try to make a case against someone, selectively ignores context in order to make their push

And at first, like where I was talking about the "my question, mc esther response" thing before, I thought that she was falling into the second category there. My realization upon reading the part of her post where she says...

(ughh my brain doesn't work in ISO mode like this, but it's the easiest way to catch up.. Something there with Sleepless? who knows??)

...is that she is doing neither of those things. I mean she is telling us right there, it's not like she is being deceptive about her reading method.

It seems like, you and Umlaut don't really share my view, that this is a strange way of digesting the game... maybe it's not? It is just really alien to me, and I can't ever imagine being able to... idk, be a person, who could come to a stalwart conclusion on a slot, by just ISOing it without actually reading the thread straight through. I think I had my Oh My God reaction because... well first it was just a sort of, "surely, this has to be a wolf, right?" and then I think, as time has passed it's more like, I have to figure out a way to communicate with this person, who plays the game very differently from me, if they are town.

To answer the dramatic person thing, yeah, probably. I end up spamming a bit more on this site for some reason. You can probably just... look at my games and see for yourself. All my recorded games are either on this site or mafiauniverse (same account name: joqiza). Homesite was EpicMafia but that site went down and my games there are no longer available.

[joqiza]

To respond to 136, I would say, yeah, some of me vs. Andante could be characterized as a slapfight, but not all of it? Andante extended me a bit of an olive branch with 121, and I responded with 124, which is my theorizing on other slots keeping in mind the possibility of a TvT... so to say I need to focus on other slots is sort of... well, it just doesn't seem quite right to me. I'm sorry if you think I'm long-winded but, on the other hand, it's a 6 page game. I really don't think it's that bad... (I've played in a 17,000 post game before, so.)

However I feel confident that I'm currently voting scum and would like to stay on Dwlee.

Are you able to explain what makes you so confident on this? In my view, he's sort of the conundrum of, lowposting wolf vs. LHF bait.

Not sure if the discussion about a Looker policy lim is serious or a joke but would add that I am down for said policy lim for the sole reason that his avatar is HORRIFYING.

[joqiza]

Mixed feelings on 136 as I look at it more because, well. When my eyes are glazing over in games I'm a wolf. As town it's easy for me to hang onto posts because it's an interesting mystery. And it's hard for me to self-eval, but like, I do think I had AI content in that "slapfight."

The Looker thing is like... actually pretty deadpan if it's a joke. I'll wait for follow-up.

I thought 135 might be a reaction test but Andante seems serious in 142. How is she so sold on these reads? The Looker suspicion does segue from her earlier post about Wh3t, but... I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot, and then I look up, and Andante has taken those same scraps and built herself a spaceship to Mars.

[joqiza]

Andante you aren't reading my posts... I gave you a whole reads list based on the premise of you being town, I'm in no way deadset on you being mafia.

I will even go ahead and UNVOTE: as Andante feels genuine in her last post.

I want to try to work with you... your Looker read could be tea but we can at least let the guy make an actual post or two first. Don't really vibe with the MC esther, I get that your theory is she's poisoning the well but I think her interpretation of Three's comment was valid. I say that because I got tripped up on the policy lim thing too.

[joqiza]

This sequence makes me think it's mc esther and Andante, especially if there are only two scum.

@Looker did you not look at the setup before you repped in? And have you read the whole game?

I think that at least one of mc esther/Andante are town for the reason Roadkill posited in 162. Assuming you're not fully caught up yet, I'd be interested in hearing your take on Andante when you have the chance to do so. I've been struggling with my read there a bit and if you've seen her as both town and scum, your full download on the situation would be... enlightening, I think.

~

I really thought you were about to say Andante/Dwelee could be a possible team. What made you think pocketing if you don't think Dwelee is likely enough to be town to have earned a spot in the middle of a reads list? What reason would Andante as scum have to pocket a town Dwelee?

@SA

My intuition is that Dwlee doesn't make 74 in a world where he and Andante are partnered. At that point in the game, Dwlee has the spotlight on him, and I'm crowing about Andante a decent amount. I just think it feels too

bold

for Dwlee to defend his one-post partner so randomly and so blatantly, in that situation. The second part of your question I'm not sure how to answer, I would say that town!Dwlee seems like a valuable game piece to scum!Andante since in this world he's basically just a potato who sits there and townreads her.

~

My mind has been entirely not on this game. I'm gonna be up late probably and will take some time then on my computer to do something. On mobile right now and won't be able to give proper consideration to walls

We still have a couple days left. So, take your time, but. You know, don't take too much time. To give you a view of where my head's at right now, I'm trying to figure out if you're one of those players who struggles to post as wolf. Baring your thoughts for us a little bit would help me eliminate that possibility.

[joqiza]

I'm sorry for my recent inattention to this game. I'm here now, catching up and will make a decision shortly.

[joqiza]

I'm... very frayed right now. (Nothing related to this game). My main thought right now is that mc esther's posting on the past couple pages feels ridiculously towny. I don't know what I'm seeing differently from other people, but her consideration of Three feels like bleeding my obvious town regardless of what Three is. I'm shielding this slot and prepared to pay the price if I'm wrong.

My townreads are Umlaut, Roadkill, and MC E. Need to head back to work but will try to phonepost while my boss isn't looking.

[joqiza]

VOTE: Dwlee99

I just find their contributions really lacking, impressively so over a 10-day timespan. However, I'll be honest that no one reads partnered with them to me at all.

I would vote Looker or Three to break a deadlock, with a slight preference towards voting Three if the wagons were tied. No interest in voting any other slot today.

172 makes me think Three might believe what he's saying, though, @mc esther it seems like you interpreted him saying "I'm pretty sure the slot isn't being town read" as a 'retrofit' for his original comment, I think that's the wrong interpretation and he was using the statement as, like, an addendum for why Looker would be a good choice. Still find said original comment to be weird but just wanted to mention that.

@Looker I don't really agree with the Roadkill push, although, the two posts you quoted from Roadkill are actually two that I was initially suspicious of as well. And then, the rest of his posts start feeling much better to me. Have you read the whole game? (I feel like I've been asking you this.)

Reads list looks something like this:

if they're mafia I suck:

Umlaut/Roadkill/Mc esther

could be town:

SA, Andante

both wolves in here hopefully:

Looker, Three, Dwlee

Andante still feels weird. So many of her posts hit my brain and say "WOLF." but 122 makes me reconsider everything.

[joqiza]

Looker/Dwlee just feels wrong because you'd expect scum!Looker to bite on mc esther or Three wagons, rather than try to start one on Roadkill that probably goes nowhere. I could be wrong on Dwlee/Andante, but I really don't think they are partnered based on a lot of things. I think they have consciously tied themselves together too much to be scum together.

Dwlee/SA would be weird because of SA's push and Dwlee/Three is just suicidal.

My mind is flipping back and forth between these non-teamreads and a "don't do pre-flip associatives" mantra. Last-minute towntelling from the slots in my PoE would be appreciated, my mind isn't made up yet. I'll be working near deadline but should be able to be at thread for final minutes and flip.

[joqiza]

Ugh, okay. I'm considering it. Why are you opposed to voting Dwlee? The argument that it's uncharacteristic of him to not engage with the game felt, well... it was convincing to me, I guess. I've played with a lot of wolves who just struggle to post as that alignment. Do you disagree with that meta or is there some reason to TR him through it?

[joqiza]

Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism

I don't really have time for this kind of cattiness, if you think someone is being survivalistic say it with your chest and we can go from there, as it stands I'm not sure who or what you're referring to.

The case on Dwlee is based on them being extremely passive, which, according to Three, is uncharacteristic of their town game. Dwlee hasn't rebuked this claim that I am aware of.

Case on Three is fencesitting a potential TvT between myself and Andante and a weird comment about policy limming you.

Not sure what cases are on Esther or yourself. Andante seems to think you are mafia for reasons that I don't understand.

Note that these are not exactly airtight cases, so yes, you reading the game prior to your replacement would be greatly appreciated. Your reads on Dwlee, Three, and Andante are what I'd be most interested in.

[joqiza]

I'm so sorry, I'm an idiot. Please edit my post if possible.

--I don't normally do this bu I've made an exception this time, try to be diligent in the future.

[joqiza]

Three, I think mc esther saw your "Looker slot isn't being townread" line, and assumed that you meant that, like, Looker saw that Wh3t wasn't being townread, and so used that as reasoning to sub in, lol. Which would indeed be a really weird and convoluted thing for you to think, but I also think that wasn't what you meant at all.

I could myself be misunderstanding, but I think there's a possible miscommunication there.

@Umlaut Okay, I'm weighing your post.

@Andante I'm not voting Esther, I'd go Looker. I'm debating between Three/Looker/Dwlee right now.

[joqiza]

No one is arguing to policy lim you at this point. The only argument there is whether Three's original comment on the matter is something a villager would say or think.

[joqiza]

VOTE: Three

I reserve the right to switch if Three starts outing massive towntells. I need head to my second job where I'll be able to look at phone a bit less but will still be present and able to post if absolutely necessary. And I should be free and completely present for lasdt 40 or so min of the game day.

[joqiza]

Table reads on other slots would be helpful, don't think further discussion on the policy lim comment is going to make a difference at this point. Who is Dwlee's partner if they're scum? Not necessarily looking for divine inspiration but yeah. Thoughts good.

[joqiza]

I'll be on in a bit / should be present before and around deadline.

[joqiza]

Sorry for the lack of activity. Back now.

[joqiza]

Sup. Sorry guys. Back for real this time.

I need to review the past couple pages in more depth but as of right now, I'm still at Umlaut/Roadkill town. In the remaining matrix of possible teams I don't think Sleepless/Dwlee are partnered. Andante/Looker and Andante/Dwlee, I also think, are unlikely to ever be partnered. There may be further teams I can cross off my list, but need to sit down with the game and eval.

^ I will expand on the above thoughts this evening when I finally have some time set aside for this. (I promise.)

Also on my list is to review the Dwlee activity stuff (I... don't really think much of activity tells in general, more curious if there was a deliberate lie or omission somewhere in the previous conversation.) And I'd like to actually meta-dive Andante, to see if I can reach a point of confidence that she's town. I'm still undecided on her... partially because, I'm just having trouble "finding" her as town, and for reasons I can't go into I'm not sure it should be so difficult for me. But, if her posting does really put her out of scumrange, this game gets a bit easier for me.

[joqiza]

I want to figure out if it's in character for you to say, as town:

Looker and mc are both literally maf.

then vote mc, out her as cop, and then the next day, pivot to saying,

Looker and Sleepless are maf.

without any trace of self-doubt.

I'm considering Looker/Sleepless, but there are a few odd notes to consider, such as 247 and the subsequent post.

A few questions (which I expect you will ignore)

- Were you still SR'ing Looker when you put Dwlee on E-1 in 314?
- When did you decide me/Looker can't be a team?

[joqiza]

Were you reaction testing or something? What was with encouraging the hammer?

[joqiza]

Below is my associatives matrix, which is something that helps me with sorting in small games.

I usually assess all teams, even those with my townreads, but I'm feeling lazy so I just eliminated any team with Umlaut/Roadkill. If one or both is scum then lolme I guess. I'd re-eval if I ended up in limlo with them of course but until then I feel they're just townier to me than the other slots in the game, by a lot.

In the below chart, red means I think the team is unviable/I've crossed it off my list. Yellow means I don't really think they're partnered but I guess it isn't unviable. Green means I haven't eliminated it as a possibility yet.

If you think a team I've marked as viable is unviable, or vice versa, let me know which one and why. I didn't include myself on the chart obviously, if you want one with me you can make your own.



Some explanation on the unviability reads:

3:

At first I thought there was a chance Andante might be hellbussing, but at this point it just seems as if it's gone too far for that to be true. She hasn't dropped suspicion or pressure on him at all this game, d1 nor d2. There isn't even much in the way of potential theater, it's just straight Andante trying to noose Looker. Not teamed.

4:

Similar case to the above team, just a lot of SA trying to noose Dwlee without much in the way of the theater/performativity you'd expect from an SvS. 202 feels too persistent to me to be what you'd say about your (somewhat endangered) mafia partner. It's

possible

that SA simply calculated the Dwlee wagon wouldn't go through... but... nah.

5:

I've spoken about this already a bit. I can't mark this as completely unviable since they've defended each other throughout the game. However, my suspicion is that 74 doesn't come from one mafia about their partner. Andante hadn't

posted anything

except her very first intro post, which I'd been critiquing heavily before that--I think scum is a bit too self-conscious to just gas up their partner's one post like that. 289 also reads unpartnered.

~

I haven't gotten around to taking a close read through teams

1

,

2

, and

6

yet.

My individual social reads are prolly something like:
Umlaut/Roadkill (town)
Andante (? town.. maybe?)
SA (townread on me earns him a brownie point)
Dwlee/Looker (still need to dig into the Dwlee activity stuff).

The Dwlee/Looker activity argument may actually let me mark team 1 as unviable / determine at least one is town.

Will resume this after I watch some anime.

[joqiza]

VOTE: Looker

Going here for now. More work needed, I'll do it tomorrow.

[joqiza]

5:

I've spoken about this already a bit. I can't mark this as completely unviable since they've defended each other throughout the game. However, my suspicion is that 74 doesn't come from one mafia about their partner. Andante hadn't

posted anything

except her very first intro post, which I'd been critiquing heavily before that--I think scum is a bit too self-conscious to just gas up their partner's one post like that. 289 also reads unpartnered.

[joqiza]

VOTE: unvote

[joqiza]

I'm TRing Looker I think. And I still feel good about Roadkill. I still don't think Sleepless/Dwlee are ever partnered, so that leaves me with two possibilities:

1) Andante is a wolf, and town!Umlaut's TR on her is wrong
2) I miscleared Umlaut and he's powerwolfing us

In possibility two, Umlaut's most likely partner is Dwlee, who he's been chainsawing for. (Could theoretically be partnered with Andante herself, but I think him saying he'd "eat a hat" if she flipped scum is... too bold for SvS).

Still need to dig into Dwlee activity stuff. Should have some time this evening.

[joqiza]

• Are you saying I'm only partnered with people I've voted?
  
  
  Correct, although if you're town then accurate assessment would show you as unviable with everyone.
  
  
  
• Is Sleepless Assassin saying they have a townread on you really the only reason you're not voting for them?
  
  
  Yeah, pretty much. If someone outs a townread on me I don't want to vote them unless I'm sure they're scum.
  
  
  
• Re:Andante/Dwlee - Are you saying that they can't be scum together because they defended each other in thread?

No, I think them defending each other actually gives them some equity, which is why they are only colored yellow rather than red. I explained why they don't read partnered to me in the original post.

Also, are you actually assessing the arguments people used to suspect each other or using this as an excuse to avoid reading a picking a side?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but yes, I'm actually assessing people's posts.

My responses in bold to the questions above.

[joqiza]

Sleepless Assassin.

[joqiza]

Dead game tbh. Not that I blame anyone as there's nothing to go off of.

I read through from the top and I'm officially marking Dwlee/Looker as unviable on the teams matrix. Both for the argument on Dwlee's activity today and for the timing of 268.

I'm mustering up the energy to take a look at the Andante coalition scum game that esther referred to.

[joqiza]

Wdym the game you didn't play? I see it in your topics.

VOTE: Sleepless

ok lets go here, Joq vote my partner. easy

Well... this is what I was afraid of. This is pretty stone-cold if it's a bluff. Now I'm really not sure what to make of the game.

[joqiza]

What are you afraid of? Me actually being town? cause that's happening

Yeah pretty much this LOL.

You being town is basically an immediate indicator that I've screwed the pooch somewhere cuz then I've PoE'd down to Dwlee/SA who I really don't think are partnered.

[joqiza]

Well I skimmed andante's coalition scum game where she barely posted and I see why Esther felt she might be town here if that was the standard. It probably isn't representative but it's kind of towny for Andante to caution me against drawing a comparison that would reflect favorably on her.

Dwlee idk. I don't want to assume things wrt activity and they might be... I think either they don't prioritize this game or it's difficult for them to post for some reason, which could be related to alignment or could just be IRL stuff. The meatier part of the case against them, to me, is their use of team reads to justify their vote on d1. When they expressed a desire to "vote a player because they existed in most worlds" they seem to have indirectly assigned equal probabilities to all of their remaining possibilities (this is the "principle of indifference"). This isn't really how I go about using associatives, my chart on the previous page is more of a mental organization tool and I don't actually view all the green "viable" squares as equally likely.

That said I don't really know if applying the principle of indifference is wolfy because I've never really seen it before in a game like this. I mostly just think it's (sorry) a bit lazy.

I guess the last thing for me to do is look a bit deeper into the case on SA and then decide my final vote for today.

[joqiza]

This has been a waste of time and so are you.

[joqiza]

I think 89 is the post that keeps bugging me. Specifically this part:

45- ehh you got a lot more from flipping votes than I would there tbh, but I don't think this means you're maf, I could see the town thought process to that.
Response to 66- "you're throwing out reads without a lot of 'oomph' behind them, and not really pressing on the wagon itself" wouldn't that make them town? like, what about Dwlee's play actually says maf? like, I kinda think Dwlee maf would be playing a lot differently like, this is POST 66... basically nothing is in this game, like, I'm not calling you maf, but it's more, I think you're town, and I just wanna know if you're looking at Dwlee with like tunnel vison they must be maf, or if you're actually trying to see if they're town or maf (I hope that explanation makes sense, your push there just feels a tad off, idk what exactly it is about it)

There is a part of my brain that has been telling me... hey, this is scum!Andante talking about town!Dwlee. Maybe I'm being dumb.

I don't think Dwlee reads partnered with the current people on their wagon. Umlaut is generally towny and also seems willing to hammer Dwlee. I have the singular knowledge that I'm not partnered with them. That is why I keep circling back to Andante... but the puzzle piece doesn't quite fit right.

[joqiza]

I do think I vote Dwlee over SA. I should have a better reason for it, but... I don't. Maybe it's just the fact that SA sr's Dwlee, which I see as a valid read itself, while Dwlee scumreads Looker, which I think, doesn't really jive with my view of the game at all.

What I'd really have liked this game is a cop check on either the Dwlee or Andante slot.

[joqiza]

I'm here and making final decision.

[joqiza]

I'm just reading over the game again and will probably hammer a little bit before deadline to be safe. I'm leaning Dwlee but still undecided so if anyone has any particularly illuminating points, now is the time to share them. Better yet would be for Dwlee/SA to post if they're around.

[joqiza]

Intent to hammer Dwlee ~20 min before deadline (seems reasonable to do it a bit early to be safe).

I reserve the right to change my mind conditional on posting from Dwlee and/or SA.

The main reason I don't think Looker/SA is a world is because I TR Looker. My table reads are: Umlaut, Roadkill, Looker town. In the remaining PoE, I don't read any pair as particularly teamed, so. Low confidence in my reads this game, ig? I'm choosing to favor table reads over associatives in the end. I don't.... really think SA is super towny, but I feel like he's given thoughts throughout the game that sort of make sense, whereas with Dwlee I find myself disagreeing with them (Andante read, Looker read, mainly). Caveat's that SA's singular pop-in on pg 17 makes me nervous, given the gamestate.

@Andante I don't think Looker is scum. If you're town, and right, and you feel like I'm not listening to you, then I'm sorry. I think you know that I do listen to you, in Pokemaf (finally complete) I literally vigged dia because I believed in your reads. This game you feel different to me. I told you I didn't vibe with your mc esther read and you ignored me. Based on the info I have rn, even if I assume the best about your intentions I can't assume your reads are any better this game than mine. Your arguments on their own merits aren't convincing as to me it feels like you just tersely repeat your hypotheses. So, I'm not sheeping you.

[joqiza]

So, for one thing, I thought your reaction to Koba was townier in that game than anything you've demonstrated here. I didn't really vocally express it that game, because I was busy at the time and fell behind. But I'm pretty sure I never actually voted you in that game.

The other thing is, this is a small game and you and I don't agree on the narratives you've made yourself clear on. That doesn't preclude you from being town but in my experience it is

quite likely

that I end up disagreeing with mafia in games. It's not the strongest tell, sure. I can be wrong and pocketed.

Are you living in the Looker/SA world? You seem to have mostly interacted with Looker. I think Looker is town atm. Either change my mind on that... unless you have reasons to vote SA outside of a teamread w/ Looker? I'm not sure if you're voting SA because you scumread him independently, or if it's just for self prez.

[joqiza]

Any last thoughts from... anyone, I guess? I'll probably hammer a little closer to deadline than I said before.

[joqiza]

@Dwlee I'm about to hammer you. I don't blame you if you're town just me not being able to quite get to your worldview. If you have anything to say in the next 5 min do so plz.

[joqiza]

Alright, here goes.

VOTE: Dwlee99

[joqiza]

Looking at the VC the obvious candidate here is Andante? It's kind of

too

obvious in that I feel like Andante was giving a full-throated defense of Dwlee and not some sort of "gee I'd rather go somewhere else." I mean, something something WIFOM but that is a tough thing for scum to do with a partner who is not making themselves easy to defend.

I guess another possibility is that SA and Dwlee wagons were

both

scum, but I haven't thought at all about how viable a pair that is.

I got to never-chop level on Roadkill and SA over the night.

There was a point d1 where I mentioned I couldn't find a partner for Dwlee and SA said something along the lines of "I actually agree with you, but it's a D2 conversation." You've got to imagine that a scum player hellbussing on D1 is looking to set up the necessary mis-eliminations down the line, i.e. trying to find people to tie to their partner. SA wasn't doing anything like that, just seemed to be trying to noose Dwlee.

Roadkill expressed frustration with me when I voted Looker instead of Dwlee in a way I found really towny. Also on D1, I think he sort of pounced at Dwlee on the end in a way that's really not partnered. Also: he's just generally, quite towny.

I think last wolf is probably Andante, but I'm cautious for the exact same reasons you outlined. I think if come to an agreement of SA/Roadkill cleared, as a baseline, that may be a good place to start the day.

[joqiza]

I think last wolf is probably Andante, but I'm cautious for the exact same reasons you outlined. I think if come to an agreement of SA/Roadkill cleared, as a baseline, that may be a good place to start the day.

Like, how is this not setting up to yeet SA/Roadkill tomorrow??? The first quote definitely hints that he knew Dwlee was flipping maf, yet I don't see much of a push on Dwlee, letting me just run with wrong reads. so this 2nd quote is like "Hey Umlaut... I know you're town... see andante pushing you... yeah.. join my side.. trust me"

How is this... even an interpretation of the post I made? I don't understand how you read 263 and then think I'm setting up to lim Roadkill/Sleepless when I explicitly said I'm never chopping them.

[joqiza]

I actually agree that me hammering Dwlee isn't clearing, or, I don't think I'd clear another player just for that. My towncase on myself would be based on more customary analysis/tone stuff. (I am... not a particularly good wolf.)

The vote on me itself, I don't really grudge Andante for. I think if she's town she's staring down a tough game. I do think the specific accusations she made are nonsensical.

Cause joqiza is smart enough to start setting up for the next day, notice how he's had very minimal activity all game, and activity he has had has been way too much interactions with me (prob cause we know each other)
but makes statements like

This simply isn't true. My activity has maybe dipped a little but I still have the most posts in the game, and my posts aren't one-liners either. I also believe I've had interactions with every slot in the game, not just hers. Like, what she's saying is just wrong.

I've already addressed the second part of 478.

P-edit: I'm not 100% locked into you being wolf so just relax, get out of panic mode and start working with people to find last wolf. I really doubt you're going to get speed limmed and we have a decent amount of time.

[joqiza]

We have five days before deadline, and I'm personally willing to use most of them for as long as you are willing to engage with the game in an active manner. I can't promise I don't vote you at the end of this but I think you shouldn't... be thinking so much about the E-1 thing, if that's really something that's bothering you.

I think if you're town you're actually in a really cool position, in a way. Just think, "I'm probably getting eliminated here, but I can help town win in F3." Focus on your reads and see if you can bring up perspectives that we haven't considered yet.

[joqiza]

the nightkill is... ah. few thoughts about it...

looker's end of day reads were dwlee/andante as a team. andante has incentive to kill looker as the loudest voice in the room that has pushed out a mafia. counterpoint, which i am wondering about: with the loss of a partner now mafia have to get through two elims and i think that... if it isn't andante she's *always* the scapegoat of the day for how she wanted to keep dwlee alive.

...but on the other hand i tend to complicate a lot, in which case, mafia andante can and probably needs to shoot looker in the face and then... what? is the plan? sometimes i think that... mafia will not fall into pitfalls that i consider to be incorrect/suboptimal play but they do. so maybe i am thinking too hard about stuff or something, the optics of what mafia would be thinking about

...i walked away in the middle of this post two hours ago and lost my train of thought but will revisit tomorrow but, maybe talking a bit more?

Yeah. I think you put to words exactly how I felt. The gut reaction looking at the nightkill is to assume it's a frame job, because, it feels like scum!Andante almost locks in her own elim by killing the person who SR her, given the gamestate. But, that's more of the calculus that I, personally, might make as wolf. Maybe Andante just made the level 1 move.

It's one of those things where it's definitely either one or the other, so calling it "NAI" seems like a misnomer. But at the same time, it feels difficult to determine a priori which universe we're living in, just from the nightkill itself. It made me want to take my time with today, though.

[joqiza]

In case my position isn't clear...

I think Umlaut and Roadkill have felt really towny to me throughout most of this game. I don't actually know exactly what 'towny' is comprised of. I think it's, like, depth of thought, whether they seem to be analyzing the game, whether their analysis

actually makes sense

, if their tone feels "right" (I don't really know what informs my tonereads, it's just a feel thing), stuff like that, the timing of emotional content when it's present...

I've gone over them in detail in other posts already. I think they're both town. Roadkill has the added benefit of hard-pushing for Dwlee's death.

SA isn't quite there in terms of analysis or tone "feel", but in light of the Dwlee flip he looks really really solid. I've seen a lot of bussing (and hellbussing) and in my experience hellbussing mafia is generally... setting up in certain ways. SA offered me cookies to vote Dwlee and said not to worry about their partner until we see the flip. If he's scum it was a perfectly executed bus imo.

Independent of this PoE process, I've been suspicious of Andante all game. Her very first post pinged me and I came close to thunderdoming her at a point on D1. My biggest issue is that her reads only ever seem tangentially related to what's in thread or whatever post she happens to be quoting. There's no nice way to say this, but if I had to describe how her posts feel to me this game, it would be "dream logic." I just completed a game with her on MU where we were both town and I had zero issues finding her as town (and she had great reads!) This adds to my suspicion a bit.

My reservations are as follows:
- Dwlee/Andante played in a way which directly ties them together if one flips. As I've said throughout the game, I don't read them as unviable together, just... atypical.
- Andante does feel town in some small ways. Mainly she shows periods of efforts, like during D1 and parts of today.
- The Looker kill made me a bit wary for aforementioned reasons.

[joqiza]

As of rn, if we limmed Andante and she were to flip town, my suspect would be Umlaut. I can... put together a sort of paranoid story where he was trying to subtly manipulate me into limming Sleepless at the end of D2 by... saying he would hammer Dwlee (yes, stay with me)... since I'd mentioned I was struggling to find any partners for Dwlee, if he could make himself seem unassociated, maybe those association reads would make me hammer Sleepless instead.

I need to stretch and strain to make that story work in my head, but at present, it's easier than seeing either SA or Roadkill as mafia, in a world where Andante flips town. I don't mind making this sentiment public because I re-evaluate everything anyway if I end up in F3.

I think what I'm looking for right now, from you @Andante, is to simply find and case the mafia. To my belief, I have done that... I have one SR (you) and three TR's (SA/Umlaut/RK). If I'm wrong, the villager with singular knowkedge of it is You. 496 and 499 do nothing for me (I don't even really understand your argument tbh.)

[joqiza]

Intent to hammer in 24h, then, unless I change my mind.

I think you're probably closer to being right that, there's nothing you can really say, in and of itself, which will make me go "oh, she's just town, then." But I think you could convince me that you're town, if you convince me that

someone else is mafia.

Which if you're town, you should theoretically be able to do.

On my part I'll go through the game from the top again, and see if there's something I'm missing. Umlaut/SA/RK all read as town to me. Who am I most likely misreading, and why? For the person you suspect, what was their plan throughout the

entire game?

Don't just... pick out a post or two and say "X is definitely mafia", that isn't doing anything for me.

[joqiza]

Hammering in ~2 hours.

[joqiza]

Reading over this game again, I wonder if Andante hammered Three on D1 because she was worried about me switching to Dwlee before deadline. It looks like she hammered two or three hours before. I'd said I would be on... I don't actually remember, but I think I would've had an hour or so. I don't actually know that I'd have switched to Dwlee, but scum couldn't have been sure given my earlier vote. Three/SA/Looker/myself/Roadkill would have been enough for maj.

[joqiza]

Hammering in like 5 min.

[joqiza]

VOTE: Andante

If this flips town and you all end up in F3 without me, my legacy isn't any particular read. Instead just do your best to find mafia and don't worry about the "pressure from the graveyard," if that makes sense.

[joqiza]

This is gonna be a hard one.

x2

I think I'll probably end up putting down a vote sooner rather than later because not having the answer is gnawing at me. That said I think there's a decent chance I vote wrong so... sorry in advance.

(To be clear I don't actually know who I'm gonna vote yet, I'm just feeling trigger-happy.)

I was also... not really expecting that kill. My read on the game-state was, scum outside of Umlaut would be more likely to keep Umlaut alive because I'd said I'd be inclined to vote him in F3. I sort of thought, scum!SA might kill Roadkill and bring me/Umlaut to F3. That seems like decent equity for him. The risk there would be getting cross-voted by Umlaut and beaten in the cross.

Scum!SA killing Umlaut instead... raises the chances that I cross-vote him? So perhaps scum!SA makes the evaluation that a battle with me with Roadkill as arbitrator has higher equity than a battle with Umlaut with me as arbitrator?

Scum!Roadkill... I don't really know what incentives scum!Roadkill has with the nightkill, other than, he can't kill himself. Probably it is just, something like... kill the person who you predict will be dangerous in the F3. But, as I type this... wouldn't Umlaut/SA in the F3 be decent equity? Given that Umlaut disagreed with me when I said I was clearing SA?

I think in my head, like... scum!Roadkill could kill me, and then, even with my last post yesterday, I think the fact that I'd said never chop SA/Roadkill might linger. That wouldn't affect Umlaut's behavior, but it might make town!SA more likely to vote Umlaut, and the cross-vote between two villagers seems... plausible there, I guess?

Scum!Roadkill killing Umlaut... I mean, I think it is unclear what town!SA or I do now, in this world. So it is a bit of a head tilt to see why he chooses this world over the former. It's possible that he just evaluates my game as scummier / easier to push on than I do myself, and so keeps me around as an ML option? (This could explain why scum!RK kills Umlaut over me, but wouldn't explain why scum!SA kills Umlaut over Roadkill..)

It's so frustrating... how easy to see these things always seem with graveyard vision. Whenever I get spoilers for a game, and it's something I didn't expect, there's a weird mental buzz and then, before too long, you wonder how you ever thought anything differently. And then you end up in a situation like this, and you remember... oh, right, this is pretty hard after all. I wish I could... go forward in time, read the spoilers, and then come back here and use the information accordingly. I keep telling myself to try to do something like that, but mentally.

[joqiza]

Sleepless, how come you call Dwlee 'Dwelee' ?

(I don't think this actually tells me anything, I'm just curious. You even use Dwelee when you're quoting them. Does their name actually display that way to you, or are you adding the extra 'e' yourself in your posts?)

[joqiza]

I'm leaning towards voting SA... it's irrespective of the nightkill stuff, which I think is sending me in circles.

scum!SA's dedication to the bus would boggle my mind a bit, but... Roadkill's 262 reaction to Dwlee's 250... I feel like that kind of OMGUS-y reaction to a wolf, followed by the hardpush for the rest of the game until they're flipped... this just feels like a town pattern to me. It's the "pounce" on the bad post by the wolf. I think I've seen this before.

[joqiza]

To compare the progressions on Dwlee, from where I'm sitting, it's like...

Sleepless's game

: Kill Dwlee. Eliminate Dwlee. Chop Dwlee. Destroy Dwlee. Annihilate Dwlee. Murder Dwlee. Launch Dwlee. Yeet Dwlee. You're townreading Dwlee? Don't townread Dwlee. Vote Dwlee instead. Oh nice, Dwlee flipped scum. Let's think about who Dwlee's partner is. Maybe it's Andante.

Roadkill's game

. (general D1 conversation). Wait, Dwlee, WTF was that post? Kill Dwlee. Eliminate Dwlee. Chop Dwlee. Destroy Dwlee. Annihilate Dwlee. Murder Dwlee. Launch Dwlee. Yeet Dwlee. You're townreading Dwlee? Don't townread Dwlee. Vote Dwlee instead. Oh nice, Dwlee flipped scum. Let's think about who Dwlee's partner is. That Looker kill was kind of weird, wasn't it?

(I'm being a bit simplistic for the sake of humor. I think the above is like, a generalization of how I feel, in a sense, even if there's obviously more to each player's game and more I plan to look at than just that.)

Neither progression is what I'd expect from a scum partner. But within that dichotomy, SA's looks a bit more static / Roadkill's more dynamic... I guess it's not a given that static/dynamic maps to wolf/villager, but that's how I naturally read into it.

[joqiza]

Can you talk a little about this unvote, joqiza? Did Andantes one genuine sounding post outweigh your reasons for voting or was there more going on in your head that can't be drawn just from reading as an outsider?

121 helps clarify what I was feeling at the time. Generally I pay attention the 'threadstate', especially Day 1, because... I'm operating with essentially no mechanical information, and I know there are two people at the table who have way more information than me. Getting embroiled in an early TvT isn't as detrimental as it might seem if you can keep your eyes open, realize the position you might be in, and figure out who's looking to profit off of the conflict. I think this is actually what Dwlee was doing in 116.

From 147 itself, her final sentence is what came across as the towniest to me. I'm not sure exactly why, I'd guess it's both the conviction and the olive-branch approach she was taking towards me.

> I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot
you sure that's how you feel? it sure seems like you're just deadset im maf, and refuse to actually look at anyone else. the team is mc and looker, why not go look there?

I recall I also found her stance on Looker towny. For two reasons, one, because at the time I believe I still thought it might hold merit. Two, because, independent of whether the read was accurate... I've found it's somewhat rare for a mafia member to express and push a strong meta-justified scumread on a villager, especially early-game. I think because it often provokes retaliation.

I should note that, even though I did say in 148 that it was "based off Andante's last post," I'm sure that the context of all her posts was in my mind. I can't say exactly, because, I'm working off memory a little bit. I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at any given time. I remember, for example, reading 122 at one point, and wondering if it was towny, because she seemed to struggle to conceptualize a world where she'd be mafia (she says, "assume for 1 second I'm town," but she should be asking, "assume for 1 second I'm mafia.")

I'm just trying to figure out if you genuinely sr me as town, or if you're maf pushing me since you've been tunneling me all game, like, assume for 1 second I'm town, who is my partner? Want to just help me find them?

But, I don't actually remember if I read that prior to posting 148, or if it's something that occurred to me while I was reviewing her posts later.

~

Also, I know that, like, the fact that there are things like this that I saw, but didn't bring up, isn't necessarily a good look for me, but. My issue as a villager has always been more on the side of conciseness and accuracy, rather than verboseness. If anything as town my volume is too loud, to the point where it drowns others out. I look back at posts like 122 and kick myself, because I know it's something I thought about and something in retrospect was probably extremely AI, but prior to the flip it was hard to know that

this

was something meaningful or worth bringing up, in comparison to the rest of her game.

[joqiza]

Oh I remember what I was looking at when I fell asleep last night. When I started pushing Dwlee, Joqiza started talking about "bad" and "Alice and Bob" comparisons. The one thing that stood out as a point possibly against Joqiza was the weird comment about Andante and Dwlee not seeming like scum together. It was like he was either setting up the post-Dwlee flip game already or maybe more likely trying to win over people who suspected Andante and convince them Dwlee is town for not being paired with Andante. This is the post I mean:

The real and sad tea is that Dwlee probably doesn't make that post if he's partnered with Andante. Which is devastating because I thought everyone else who talked besides those two has been at least a little bit towny and I was starting to get hopeful.

The fact that Joqiza ends up voting both Andante and Dwlee kind of fits with that being his intention. However, like everything else in this game, there's a town mold that it fits too which is not playing for associatives before a scum flip, simply noting them for later. The fact that he still ended up voting Andante, on surface level, seems to contradict the town world. However, a lot of info exists between Page 5 and Day 3 and a lot of that vote seemed to be PoE anyway. And again, the decision came late in the form of a hammer. So there's still nothing damning here but that is another thing on my mind that I'm trying to work through.

I actually agree with this point, in that, I think I can see how someone could read my early game play as a defense of Dwlee, by not team-reading Dwlee/Andante and then pushing Andante. What I'd offer here is that, although I was suspicious of Andante, I never wrote her off entirely and I did end up voting Dwlee near the end of Day 1 (even though I did end up switching to Three). The reality is for most of the game I felt like either Dwlee was pocketing Andante or Andante was pocketing Dwlee, and I was correct about that.

It's unfortunate for me that I ended up not committing to that read D3, but I don't hold that against myself, because... I just think Andante always dies in F3 if we ML in F5, and voting outside in F5 just means... less info than coming to the decision now (aka we'd need to correctly reason who last scum is conditional on town!Andante, but with Umlaut in the mix too, as well as lacking the knowledge that scum chose to kill Umlaut.) To be clear I'm not blaming Andante, I know she was playing hard and was doing her best for us, but at the same time, I think it was... not the worst ML I've ever been a part of. I don't think I personally was ever getting there on her, given how hard I was townreading the rest of you guys post D2.

Also, to help explain why I made the decision I made on D3: although I pay attention to associative reads, I will generally use more general "table" reads on the players themselves to make my final decisions. That's because, I think that associative reads are a bit easier to manipulate: I think there are some scum players out there, who can't really post well as a wolf, but still enjoy coming up with anti-spew or distancing plays. Coming into D3 after hammering Dwlee, I was feeling pretty justified in putting the associatives aside, because, I hadn't really found a partner for them, and they'd flipped scum anyway. Even though my Andante/Dwlee not-teamread ended up being correct, it's worth noting that I'd also had you/Dwlee and Roadkill/Dwlee as unviable. So, I don't think there was any particular value in them.

For me, I do the associatives exercise, not because I think it's some secret formula for reading the game, but because... it just gets me to squint at the game in a different way, if that makes sense? It's an opportunity to go through the game from the top, and think about the game from multiple, specific, perspectives, and even if I don't get the associative right itself, sometimes things click just from seeing the posts again and again.

[joqiza]

And if Roadkill is town, not being killed was clearly a big WIFOM plan that I wouldn't expect. Do you think you could link me to a scum PT from a game where you played well as scum? I want something that shows how you really think when the time comes to make a big late game NK.

The thing is, I can't really link you to any late game NK decisions I've made, because... I've never been a wolf in a late game NK position. The reason for that is

I've never actually made it that far as wolf

. In all my prior wolf games (with the exception of one turbo, which I'll link), I've been limmed early. In fact, outside of that turbo, I've never lived more than two consecutive game days as a wolf before getting limmed / game ending. And in multiple games, the only reason I've made it past the first day is because my partner got limmed before me.

I'm regarded in my home community as a polarized player. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results, so, I'm not trying to argue that I'm clear town. But I think I can make an objective case that, for me to be a wolf this game, I'd have to be significantly outside the scumrange of any game I've ever played before. There's one additional caveat, in that, two out of my five total scum games were played on the site EpicMafia, which no longer exists at all (owner pulled the plug.) So, I can't link them. I can, however, link this post, which references my EM games at a time when they existed, and also, like, shows that the game history and arguments I'm presenting here are truthful, and not something I've just made up ad hoc.

Probably the best scum game I've played, or at least the most relevant to this game, is Newbie 2003, which I played on this site. Here's the Scum PT for it. In that game, my partner and I distance pretty hard Day 1. I got cop checked Night 1, and got limmed. My partner was able to end-game, partially cuz she was a beast, but also with some help from some anti-spew associatives which we set up early.

That's why... I think that, just townreading me for hammering Dwlee, isn't necessarily.... I don't know that it's

not

a good reason to TR me, I'm just not sure it's actually something I'd shy away from? If I can make my perspective clear, it's like... the reason I'm town to me, isn't that I hammered Dwlee. Maybe as mafia, in that position, I hammer my partner to preserve towncred. But the reason I'm town is because as mafia

I wouldn't be in a position to try to save my own towncred in the first place.

Here is my other existing long-form scumgame. I subbed in D3 and I was limmed D4. I really only survived D3 because there was a red check on my partner. In my defense, in that game, there was already some suspicion on my slot when I subbed in.

Here's a 7-page turbo game I played on MU. I don't think it will be particularly informative but I'll link it as it's my only other wolf game still on record. I didn't really do any NK strategizing here as nights were only minutes long.

[joqiza]

As an FYI... I'm finding Sleepless's recent posting pretty towny, particularly the latter part of 546.

I'm almost positive I'd have killed you because I wouldn't see anyone eliminating you and I think Umlaut vs Joqiza would be an easy 1v1 to set up.

I try to be nice to everyone. I'm mainly just trying to lay put my thoughts and see if they make sense. As much as I want to work with whichever of you is town and come to the right conclusion, it's in my mind that whoever is scum has played a great game so I fully expect they'd be in my ear with "yes you make perfect sense, keep it up" hoping I feel confident and lay my vote. So part of me also feels alone and unable to trust anyone if that makes sense. So if I'm coming off cold, I apologize. It's the nature of the game.

Maybe it's weird that of the things he posted, it's these sentiments, rather than his actual questions toward me, that are making me think he might be the villager in this F3. I think it's because, I'm expecting both town and mafia to dive into my game, and ask me questions, at least at first. Right now I'm just looking for the "sentiments" of a villager, and I'm kind of surprised that, of the initial posting, it's SA that I'm jiving with better, when for most of the game I've felt like it's Roadkill who has put to words, like, "oh, yes, this is what I'm feeling right now."

I don't think Roadkill's posts themselves are super objectionable, and I think that's important to note, but just now from trying to fit two squares into a space only one can go, I'm... wondering, I guess.

I'll start with this:

also i cannot offer any examples of my play and i am sorry for that but i think here if i were mafia i would kill joqiza as the loudest, most consistent voice in the room and also...

he has intuitively matched up with me for almost the entire game as in, our thoughts mirror each other from what he says and.:: while if i were mafia i would have tricked him up to this point but when you have done so for so long when you say something “bad” that does not match it is a jarring moment that can cause an almost instant reevaluation that i don’t think i would be able to recover from gracefully and with the spotlight shining hard on the three of us

Your argument here, as I understand it (and correct me if I don't), is that you'd kill me in part because we were on the same wavelength for most of the game, and you'd feel, in F3, as mafia, that would make it more apparent to me that you were mafia. But, I think... that just doesn't quite feel intuitively right to me, that I'd be more likely to re-evaluate you than Umlaut would, simply because I and you meshed well for every day prior.

Am I misunderstanding? Do you... disagree, I guess? I'm not really sure what I'm hoping to get out of this, actually, as I think you will just say... yes, this is how I feel. But. I think I'm looking at your posts with a critical eye, and I guess this is one that... I could squint, and see as being out-of-place? So, maybe, if you're town, say it again in a way that... will make me not feel that way? I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to ask that, but I'm not sure what else to do right now, other than be honest as to what I'm feeling in any given moment.

[joqiza]

Going to follow up on some threads tomorrow something that occurred to me is that, Roadkill's push on Dwlee in 259 is subsequent to mc esther being outed as cop in 245. (Though prior to this is 66.)

I think that, the segue makes sense for town!Roadkill, who was previously SR'ing esther but blah on Dwlee, to start SR'ing Dwlee in light of esther being revealed as (almost certainly) town. The scum!Roadkill narrative is something like... Roadkill just was deeply disappointed by Dwlee's posting, and as soon as cop was outed, Roadkill chose to bus, as he now knew that doing so wouldn't put him into autoloss (we are... most certainly in the two goons/1 cop setup, at this point.)

What is still really hard for me to wrap my head around, in a world where Roadkill is scum, is why posts like 365, 367, and 390 even exist. Both Umlaut and I are, at times on D2, pushing in different directions, so... why does Roadkill as scum so doggedly prevent town from shooting itself in the foot? "Why would they bus there," is the battlecry of every town that's lost to a bussing scum, but Roadkill's push feels like it goes beyond just a bus, it's... a determined Fuck Dwlee They Are Dying Today.

I think this is like, what I meant earlier, where it's a bit easier to see the bussing narrative from Sleepless at first glance, because, I can envision some early distancing where you just get In Too Deep. For Roadkill, it's like, this intentional choice at the end of D1 that he's going solo it without his partner, even though... I just don't understand why 390 exists in a scum!Roadkill world. It's a persuasive attempt to get me to hammer Dwlee in a game where... if I hammer town!Sleepless, and Roadkill/Dwlee go into LYLO with that level of distance, I feel like they always win.

[joqiza]

On a sort of not-game related note, two things:

1. The fact that Sleepless was reading Dwlee's name as 'Dwelee' rather than this being some nick-name, blows my mind. I don't think he's lying about that, because... it's too weird to make up, and I don't see any reason to lie about it regardless of alignment, but like... how did you not notice? Don't actually waste posts answering this, it's not important, just.... wtf lol.

2. I've spent an inordinate amount of time this game wondering what exactly catboi's fire emoji gif in 25 portends as an omen. At first I thought maybe that was the universe telling me, my read on Andante was fire (but also, like, I knew that if I genuinely entertained that notion, the universe would manifest her town just to punish me, so, that was a thing too.) Now the obvious answer is that Sleepless sniped the mafia team on the first page, and

that's

what was fire, but, like, see prior statement on the universe punishing me.

(For legal purposes the fire emoji thing is a joke, I don't listen very closely to the superstitious part of my brain, but I thought I'd mention it, cuz, well, I just think it's funny. One of you knows I'm genuine, so maybe you'll enjoy... knowing how silly my mind can be.)

[joqiza]

to answer, the stuff about not being intuitively right i think you prove my point a bit when i stretch to the “wrong” which... ahhh... i don’t know if i have better words for you especially now and i’m sorry but maybe it is also how umlaut acted regarding andante end of day where he dug in so harshly and was unrepentant and that sort of attitude especially one that isn’t as.... cerebral maybe (not an insult i promise i’m sorry) is less likely to fling into me if i need to avoid that?

word salad right now to finish the first point

to even visit the wrong for me or rather the fake as in, a fake world where i try to describe an action i would take, it is... anathema to how i play to spill out my thoughts because fake thoughts cannot trail into each other nearly as easily? it’s caught out by someone who is really paying attention and i think that sort of attention is townier maybe?

For the first part of your quote here, I struggle with the logic a bit because, to me you're saying,

1. If I were scum, I'd kill joqiza because he and I have been on the same wavelength every day prior to F3, which would make me more apparent to him in F3

And further I think you're saying here:

2. joqiza expressing suspicion of me today proves point 1 a bit because, in the case that I were scum, this would be him catching on to me, and as scum I'd predict this and kill him. (Hence this universe cannot exist because joqiza is not dead.)

There's something a bit strange about the logic here, although I'm not sure exactly what it is. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding your argument entirely and you're saying, joqiza as town is likely to turn on me in F3 regardless of my alignment, thus I wouldn't keep him alive. That argument would make more sense intuitively. But I think that's not quite what you're saying.

I'll be honest that I'm not sure at all what you're communicating in the second part of the quoted post. I think you're saying that, your hypothetical reasoning for why you'd kill me as scum might not make sense because it itself is a second-order process for you this game (as you are town).

I accept that if it's what you are in fact saying, and I don't really think I ever expected to really... get too much from your nightkill analysis in the first place. What's really going on for me is that, my conception of Sleepless as a wolf was that he wasn't posting as strongly this game and would rely on strong non-associatives with Dwlee to carry him through endgame. But I think that Sleepless's posting early in this F3 has actually been quite strong, and simultaneous to that you've felt a bit... again, not bad, but dampened, maybe.

I worry about being too hasty and throwing away a winnable game if you and I are both in fact town. But... in my mind, I am holding on to the fact that, I know for me, there is a kind of determination I have over the next seven or so days we have: to post as strongly and as transparently as I can, to dive into the game and make clear my thoughts on it as many times as the post limits will allow me to. I feel this because I know that I have a green role PM and that the vast majority of my posting this game is stuff I could never replicate as a wolf. And I, frankly, feel the desire to make life as difficult as possible for whichever one of you figured I was a game piece worth bringing to this F3.

I can't know for certain that... the fact that I feel this way as town, and that I know I wouldn't feel the same as wolf, is something that

necessarily

applies to other players. But I do believe it

generally

applies, or at least I'm really hoping so... and right now it's SA who has echoed it closer.

We still have plenty of time, so I don't want to rush you, but... yeah. This is where I'm currently at.

Once I'm home today and at my computer I'll go through my posting like you asked and detail my Dwlee progression.

[joqiza]

I don't think you necessarily need to clarify anything for me right now, but you do come across a bit jumbled in recent posts, which is why I'm re-stating what I think your arguments are in my own words.

I'm not so interested in the self-towncase. My preferred method is something like... I work with you as if we're town, and we need to explain why Sleepless is scum, and if we can't get there then we vote each other and maybe we both lose but it's not for lack of effort. And i do the same thing for Sleepless, but vice versa.

I don't really know you so I think arguing about stuff like... who you might decide to kill as scum, is going to be tough for me to parse compared to like, seeing your case on Sleepless or myself and determining if the arguments you present are bad faith or not. Offense over defense, basically.

Doesn't have to happen today.

[joqiza]

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

[joqiza]

To follow up on point 2, My "push to win" is reflective of my optimism that simply by posting I can work towards clearing myself because every post i make is genuine and all I need to do is be transparent. Yes that is possibly naive but I almost feel like it should be obvious that this is what I'm thinking and feeling. Is it not bleeding out of my posts? That is what I'm asking myself right now.

Also, I'm not sure which one of you is last wolf obviously, I can't ever be sure and this in particular is a tough game. So I think it's entirely reasonable for me to begin the game day by focusing on my own self-towncase. If you want to say, "okay, I'd prefer you focus on finding mafia" fine, I plan to do that, but my inclination to start with a self-towncase should be understandable. I also think the case itself is salient and confirmable.

[joqiza]

I think also, my frustration is like. You're saying you need to determine whether I'd hammer Dwlee as scum to figure out if I'm town or not. I just don't get why THAT is what determines my alignment. Do I not have posts this game that are difficult to make as a wolf? Have I not done so consistently throughout this game, with few drops in level? And, additionally, I have linked games that show that making such posts is indicative of my town game, on a specific meta level, although this argument shouldn't even be necessary so much as additional evidence imo.

So, why then, is the focus on an action that I

wouldn't

do as scum, instead of all the actions I have taken that I

can't

do.

Frankly if you're town then whatever mechanism by which you reach me being town will increase my equity, but I will be honest I think hinging my alignment on the hammer is just reading into a game of wine swaps, one which I'm not sure how I'd play. It's my posting in general that makes me a villager.

If you don't townread my posting and are only townreading the hammer, I don't know what to tell you.

[joqiza]

WIM = Wants It More. Essentially means reading into how much people are trying to win to determine their alignment.

My personal opinion is that WIM is usually personality indicative rather than something AI. The

specific way

in which my WIM has manifested, in this F3 and throughout the game (e.g. hyperposting) is probs a general towntell; something that town is more likely on average to do than scum. On a specific meta level it would clear me for those who know me. I've never heard WIM referred to as a scumtell, except in specific meta contexts where some people actually post better as wolf than as town. I've only ever heard debate as to whether it's towny or NAI.

There's also the way this day has played out. Joqiza feels like full effort making a push to win the game where Roadkill feels more... I'm not sure of the word. Stuck? Lost? I feel like scum who is playing well feels pressure and confidence at the same time. You want to finish. You want to brag that you didn't get caught. And that feels more like Joqiza.

If the above is the actual, genuine way you read things then we're fucked because I'm only going to exhibit this mentality for as long as this F3 continues. Of course I want to win, that would be true irrespective of my alignment. And the specific way I'm exhibiting this desire to win is by posting my thoughts in full-download fashion, because I believe they should only be able to reflect my lack of TMI, villageriness, whatever. If I were scum I'd still have WIM, but I'd be posting far more carefully, probably with a specific game plan in mind, rather than just doing the equivalent of shouting at the top of my lungs "I'M TOWN."

I've said my piece on the hammer, really, this might lose me the game but I think if I were hypothetically scum who was in a position where I was even capable of posting the way I posted this game as town, then yes i would probably cap Dwlee in the fucking face on D2. I think if that hypothetical world were true I'd be a Don Corleone esque player and I'd have no worries about being able to post myself to whatever position I want, so I'd probably just cut off the dead weight. OTOH if I were that good a player maybe I just kill town!Sleepless and force it in F5. Truth is I don't know and probably never will because we don't live in the world where I'm good enough at scum to make those decisions.

[joqiza]

If you believe you have done something townier, I'm all ears.

The true towniest thing I have done from my own perspective, of having self-knowledge of myself and how I play, are probably 121 and 124. The dual consideration of Andante as wolf/town and solving in both universes, isn't something I'd bother doing as scum in a table of people who don't know me, and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to make 124. It just wouldn't happen, I'm not creative enough.

I also think the way Dwlee posted towards me is deeply unpartnered, however, I would feel disingenuous pushing this argument whole-heartedly as I'm pretty sure Dwlee was in set-up mode from very early on in this game. From my perspective it is simply that their method of setup was to put their scum partner in their own PoE, but that kind of thing is a WIFOM decision and I've seen it the other way around.

Expanding on the above, even before it was confirmed to me that Dwlee had been bussed, I'd suspected that Umlaut was town (I re-evaluated him after the Andante flip) based partially off Dwlee's 21. Didn't think Dwlee would hip-fire a townread onto his partner like that in their very first posts. While reviewing I'd also noticed that in 250 and 437 they maintain both you (Sleepless) and Roadkill in their PoE. At one point during the night I'd come to the conclusion that Roadkill was going to die and then I was going to almost certainly vote you instead of Umlaut.

Hence your argument that you'd be more likely to kill Roadkill than Umlaut as scum has been agreeable to me, on top of the fact that you, sort of sound like you just believe it when you say it, because I actually spent some of the night expecting to end up in the F3 with you/Umlaut/myself with you as scum expecting that 1v1 between me and Umlaut. It's possible that you're scum who felt hellbussing your partner wasn't WIFOMy enough and so WIFOM'd the NK in addition to that, and/or maybe you're scum who even predicted that I'd re-eval Umlaut during the night, but those require a bit more... stretching to get to.

To be clear I don't think Roadkill killing Umlaut over myself really makes all that much sense either, and I think it's probably a tactical error on his part if that ends up being the case (though feels weird to criticize pre-emptively, especially if the game ends with you voting me and him winning). What I'm considering here is whether he as scum would think he could maintain the TR on him I've had all game. This is why I was picking at his nightkill hypothesizing earlier.

[joqiza]

(i did try to dwell; joqiza to your iso i read the beginning day but it felt too jumbled to make sense in the sense of scenes in narrative, can you go over your dwlee thoughts and feelings and if you have please requote because i am not trying to ignore even if they’re blatant but i cannot ... find it)

Getting back to this now; I'm actually not sure whether you want, like, my thoughts on Dwlee now, post-flip, or whether you were asking for a walkthrough of my Dwlee progression throughout the game, but I'll give both.

My first real thought entering the game was that 17 was turbo-scum and I (ironically) came the closest I've ever come to lolhammering. Fortunately my better angels won out / the image of Andante flipping PR and me getting yeeted the next day and then catboi banning me from ever joining his games in the future, was enough to get me not to instahammer her.

The reason I bring up Andante is that my Andante/Dwlee reads were kind of tied together for most of the game. Dwlee's first content post is 21 which is dismissing my read of 17. I reacted with 23 because I wanted to make sure I was heard and understood. However, independently I was suspicious of Dwlee's post in the context of already scumreading Andante, because Dwlee's reason to dismiss Andante's line didn't match up with what Andante had actually said. It, of course, occurred to me that Dwlee could be scum knighting for town!Andante, but at that specific period of time my mind was on an Andante/Dwlee team.

For the next couple pages after that I was basically just waiting for Andante to return and watching to see how I felt about the other slots. I believe at the time I mostly felt that everyone was towntelling (minus Andante who was absent)

besides

Dwlee, who was just null. So, I was beginning to narrow in on an Andante/Dwlee universe. Then Dwlee posted 74, which as I expressed in 76, made me reconsider. I think I've expounded on my justification for that read many times, to re-hash it again, read 163 and 363. It's unfortunate that I changed my mind on what was originally a correct deduction, but in my defense, this game is

quite

hard.

Following Dwlee's 74, Andante returned to the game and the whole thing between her and I began. I don't really have much to add there, and I can sort of, see the scum case that I used a not team-read on Dwlee/Andante and a push on Andante to justify, not pushing a scummy partner; but as I said before, my defense is that I

did

work with Andante, eventually managed to... not quite find her, but accept the possibility that she might be town, and from there correctly deduced that Dwlee was the scum in their pairing. I voted Dwlee in 205. I'll note that in the interim they posted 189, which did nothing to convince me they were town.

Looking at the VC again I also voted Dwlee on D1 when the counterwagon was mc esther and tied the wagons, so I do think by doing so I put Dwlee at real risk of elimination prior to mc esther being outed: hence this is a good look for me. Unfortunately for me I guess, I switched to Three in 299; this was a combination of Umlaut's arguments, my own suspicion of Three, and also, just a lingering suspicion that Andante was scum spewing Dwlee town, and if we limmed them Andante was going to make me out to be the Great Satan for daring to scumread Dwlee's meager posting.

I was busy during the very end of D1, when Dwlee posted 250 and you followed up with 262. It's possible that if I'd more availability in that time frame I'd might have switched to Dwlee, I honestly don't know / I don't remember my sentiments during that period of time. It also isn't the biggest deal to me personally because it is confirmed from my perspective that scum was willing to cut Dwlee loose by that point.

D2 I remember I was also quite busy for the first half of the game day. Coming back my main agendas were parsing the Dwlee/Looker conflict as well as, Andante's like, reads, in general. I think 359 is a decent summary of where I was, returning to the game. I never did end up diving into the Dwlee's activity stuff very much, tbh. I simply started reading Looker as town based on his reaction to my vote and his posts following that, and from there my mind turned to Dwlee/Sleepless. I think my progression from there is like... I don't know that there was an evolution on Dwlee themself, it's more that, I started circling back around to Andante being town, which muddied the SA/Andante team, and Dwlee started seeming more likely just through PoE.

I should also mention that 390 was convincing and helped... reassure me, I guess? I was reading you very solidly as town at that point. That's why, as I've said, I have to give credit where it's due and it's hard for me to understand why that specific post exists if you're scum.

I think I'd largely made my mind up by 407 and 408. Posts like 409 made me nervous, because, random scummy push from Andante maybe spewing Dwlee town, but by that point I was considering that my not-teamread on Dwlee/Andante was just trash.

For my mindset in the lead-up to hammering Dwlee, I felt like, if I hammered town and we went to F5, with as little information as we had available, there was no chance that we'd manage to pull of two scum lims in a row. This is one of the reasons I did the protracted hammer, the other being I just think it's good policy to extend EoD's for more material from every slot. I was pleased to see a scum flip and obviously, if Sleepless is last wolf, it wasn't really some kind of magnificent determination from me, but in the other case I'll be at least happy with that one decision regardless of how this game ends.

~

This took me longer than I expected to pull all the posts together, so going to take a break and then come back in a bit for my post-Dwlee flip thoughts. I hope this summary is helpful to whoever needs it.

[joqiza]

I can't find it right now for some reason but right on this page joqiza said something about he'd hammer Dwlee even as scum. And that is making this harder for me, not easier. Like if he'd really do that, then my reservations about him being scum are unfounded and it's probably just him. But offering that up knowing I'm townreading him for it would be just plain weird if he's scum. Unless it's not genuine and it's him saying "don't townread me" to appear less likely to be scum. It's classic WIFOM that can go either way and unfortunately, figuring that out means more than determining whether he makes that hammer as scum.

I'm not sure if this helps, but, if I self-analyze then I think the reason that I'm even arguing against myself in this fashion is because letting it stand would feel almost like poisoning the well. Intentional or not, I feel like you're framing my towniness as being conditional on something I myself think is shaky. My instinct is to not allow myself to be associated with an argument that I don't quite believe. A part of me does want to just go, "whatever, take it," but for better or worse I've chosen to... tear down what I see as a poor foundation, in hopes that I can build back up a town-case based on what I think are firm, logical reasons.

[joqiza]

[joqiza]

[joqiza]

I am in a subway station, waiting for a train.

I have been waiting a long time.

The map says I am on the green line.

I want to get to the red line.

So I must take the blue line

to the silver line

and switch on the purple line.

Each time I look at the map, all the lines switch places.

Except for the yellow line, which isn’t even connected to anything.

I think that this subway system stretches on forever.

Each stop has a new map with new edges.

When I try to leave the station, I realize the exit has been paved over.

There are other people here, on the trains, but they look angry when I ask them where they’re going.

And there are some who call themselves the Train Riders.

They have been riding the subway since the dawn of time.

Going nowhere.

Going everywhere.

According to the Train Riders, there is no outside world.

Only the trains are real.

They have accepted their endless wandering.

I envy them.

I join the Train Riders.

I meet an old man who tells me a story of the world above.

He says it is different yet the same.

It is different because of the kittens.

But the same, because

there is an avenue in New York that never ends.

And taxi drivers stuck in that infinite city skyscape.

And passengers behind locked doors.

And everyone trying to get to a kind of place that could never exist.

[joqiza]

Busy at the moment and I haven't gone through the case yet, but just posting to say I'm clear. Good vote if you're town Roadkill.

[joqiza]

Alright fellas time for me to dive into things. I'll be around if you want to direct my attention to anything else in specific... in the meantime I'm gonna try to conserve posts in case I end up needing them

[joqiza]

Idk if either of you is like, anxiously waiting for my questioning right now but it probably won't come today (or if it does it'll probs be late). I'm still in the stage where I'm just like... kinda clicking around the thread and absorbing and noodling on stuff.

[joqiza]

Actually Roadkill when you see this I am a bit curious what you mean in 593. You're saying you pre-write posts at times and then split them up and post them in chunks? To what end? Readability I guess? Or trying to facilitate real time interactions or something?

[joqiza]

Dwlee:

I don't like to bus in micros though

Also Dwlee:

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group

[joqiza]

Mm. On that topic, Roadkill, I respect your privacy and all and I'm not asking you to out your main but you should probs be aware that, in the absence of other info, I'm going with the working assumption that you're a strong/experienced scum player.

I'll be honest I can't hold the mistaken deadline thing against SA because I made the exact same mistake lol. Idk why I thought it just ended a day earlier for some reason until Umlaut mentioned it.

I do think SA's progression from Dwlee onto mc esther warrants clarification so @Sleepless when you see this,

What made you switch from Dwlee to mc esther, specifically?

If you could just sort of walk me through, your thought processes as best you remember, that's all I'm looking for. Thanks.

[joqiza]

last mafia bussing dwlee this game:



last villager, the dead thread, and catboi watching me shitpost as clear instead of solve the game:

[joqiza]

Were you thinking mc esther/Dwlee seemed a viable team at the time, based on your 208? Or did you think esther was the only one that would go through? I think your progression is mostly clear but the specific decision to go esther rather than Three is what I'm interested in.

[joqiza]

Umm, so, y'all, I think I'm... pretty decently leaning rn to Sleepless being the last villager, and Roadkill being the last mafia (sorry Roadkill).

@Roadkill I want you to know I've read all your posts, and I'll try to respond to everything later today and... like explain my thoughts more. I have a 21 minute vocaroo of me rambling that I could post in the way of explanation in post-game, but I'll try to get it... written up in a transcription this evening so you have a chance to respond or defend yourself or such... just having an issue with my mental energy rn that's making it hard for some reason.

The basic summary is like... after having gone through the game a couple times... I feel like... I have to note the fact that your "pounce" on Dwlee which I was previously TR'ing follows mc esther being outed as cop, whereas SA is putting Dwlee in a decent amount of danger, imo... prior to that event happening... and just noting how risky that play by Sleepless would be for scum, and for a Sleepless/Dwlee team in particular... because.... idk I go into this more in my vocaroo and I'll try to elaborate but, it you're gonna hellbuss I feel like you have to be confident in your ability to win F3 and I don't know that Sleepless would self-eval as that kind of player due to his lower thread presence throughout the game? Idk if I'm explaining it well.

Whichever one of you is the villager has played a really great game (as has the wolf too obv) so, if I do end up hammering wrong the loss is on me.

Anyway just wanted to get that out there, having a lot of problems writing up my thoughts for some reason but I have been reading and will try to get stuff down on paper.

[joqiza]

Um, so for Roadkill...

I feel like, a lot of your argument about why Sleepless is scum is predicated on things that Dwlee did and said? And while I... do think that when I read Dwlee's posts, and certain things... like Dwlee putting SA in his PoE but not their immediate kill list d1, or... Dwlee not responding to you at all D2, those things do make me think that the team could be Dwlee/Sleepless instead of Dwlee/Roadkill, so I could see myself being wrong about this and if I am I'm sorry.

The thing is though, I think it might be a mistake for me to think that, just because Dwlee couldn't post well, that it translates to them not being able to set up and manipulate associatives well? I think there are many wolves (myself included... though I'm not sure I'm good at anything as wolf) that are able to... not post myself out of the PoE, but still able to set up my partners, if that makes sense?

Essentially, when I read Dwlee's posts, I get the sense that they're posting very carefully. I get the sense that I'm across a table playing wine swaps with them. And, while I can still try to beat them at that game... It makes me want to focus on other things, if that makes sense. (Does it make any sense?)

And the thing I end up focusing on when I rr this game is like, the degree of risk that an SA/Dwlee team would have incurred by enacting their strategy, and the good fortune they'd have to have encountered by mc esther getting run up d1. And simultaneously, I can sort of see a narrative where, after Esther is outed, you and Dwlee hatch a plan to get you across the finish line, knowing that you'll now have the ability to take out the cop on n1.

[joqiza]

It's not your fault if you clear me and then I can't find you that would literally just be me not being good enough

[joqiza]

yeah that's sorta what i meant by 610. um. i mean you both being under suspicion isn't what makes me think it's not SvS it's actually sorta like, Dwlee was sorta "unnecessarily" bussed in a fashion by either one of you, either by you Sleepless on d1 or by Roadkill on d2, so... makes you think about, who would have self-eval'd as having good chances in F3, and whereas, scum!Roadkill is at least basically TR by everyone, scum!Sleepless has a pretty tricky path to walk especially if they don't find the PR early

[joqiza]

damn 612 hits me in the feels though i don't wanna make someone cry just by being bad at mafia lol

roadkill bro if ur being legit you don't need to feel bad about me sucking like it's not on you, it just isn't lol. would just be sleepless playing a good game and me making the wrong read

[joqiza]

Joqiza think about the fact that Day 2 was Dwlee vs me. Do you really think this town was absolutely perfect that day and scum just let it happen and your decision on who to hammer didn't matter because you were hitting scum either way? You challenged Andante earlier this game to find a time town hammered just for fun at the start of a game. I'm challenging you, find a time town had to choose who to hammer and both options were scum. It's rare. I can't even recall a time and I've played a ton of mafia.

Btw, it's not really the most important point for me rn but here are two recent examples of games I've been in with SvS wagons. I'm not sure if it's exactly like what you asked bc in the 1st it looked like the third scum made the hammer and in the second it was decided by plurality but if we're talking about general SvS wagons it's not super uncommon in my own experience. There's a third example from a game I remember on EM but I can't link it obv due to site going down and I don't remember the exact threadstate it occured under either.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost5640261
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ost5701485

I agree I've never been in like a... very particular circumstance where there's a long wait while town decides between SvS wagons and then hammers one, but that seems more like cuz it'd be the confluence of individually rare circumstances than some kind of joint impossibility.

[joqiza]

well im still reading / hoping for divine inspiration

[joqiza]

Bro Roadkill idk if I'm ever getting there man like legit d1 SA was only interested in voting Dwlee and when the choice between Three/Esther came up as compromise wagons he was like "yeah Three agrees with me that Dwlee needs to die so not interested" instead the only compromise he was really willing to entertain was the person who wrote 194.

I won't vote Looker. I want Dwelee and can compromise on Mc Esther. I'm not against voting Three but would rather Dwelee or Mc Esther.

I can't wrap my head around WHY, like yes granted if he endgames me then it worked I guess but goddamn.

[joqiza]

I'm... very frayed right now. (Nothing related to this game). My main thought right now is that mc esther's posting on the past couple pages feels ridiculously towny. I don't know what I'm seeing differently from other people, but her consideration of Three feels like bleeding my obvious town regardless of what Three is. I'm shielding this slot and prepared to pay the price if I'm wrong.

My townreads are Umlaut, Roadkill, and MC E. Need to head back to work but will try to phonepost while my boss isn't looking.

Want to vote Dwelee? I'll give you cookies or something.

VOTE: Dwlee99

I just find their contributions really lacking, impressively so over a 10-day timespan. However, I'll be honest that no one reads partnered with them to me at all.

I actually agree with you that the top wagons are people who don't make sense as scum with Dwelee. I can't see Dwelee/Three at all. I don't believe in Dwelee/mc esther all that much. I kind of lean towards if Dwelee is scum, it's with Andante or Roadkill who I don't have as being scum individually. But this feels like a Day 2 discussion to me.

myself, andante, umlaut, and looker have all said that dwlee isnt happening. im guessing dwlee wont self-vote. this wagon isnt happening.

looker seems to reject every viable wagon though, which, um. i dont think i have such a strong preference on three over looker any more.

myself, three, and looker all still appear to be viable.

You and Dwelee are the lead wagons. Are you town reading Dwelee so strongly that you'd prefer to either die or have no elimination go through?

Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism

Are there any cases other than thinly veiled survivalism

Mainly their awkwardness in their first few posts when their role PM would have been freshest in their mind. It sounds like they have a history if struggling as scum, and they haven't produced a whole lot here. And they just feels so similar to the last game I played with them where they were scum. And just a complete lack of anything town.

Preview edit: Yeah I'd encourage you to read the very beginning. That's where my scum read came from.

I mean this is all prior to mc esther being outed as cop. I snipped a couple posts but mostly these happen in succession, like the dude is trying to annihilate Dwlee.

[joqiza]

I mean what I townread is the frankness with which he expresses his scumread on Dwlee. Like his read doesn't feel dressed up at all, he's not trying to look towny before the fact or anything he's just single-minded trying to get Dwlee chopped. And in a different universe we absolutely chop Dwlee d1, reading over the game again it's still surprising to me that Umlaut, Andante, and Esther all defended Dwlee from the rope when Dwlee wasn't really towny. I don't see how scum!Sleepless could have reasonably predicted Dwlee would survive day 1 during all the different moments he hardpushed him prior to esther being outed, rather I think scum!Sleepless would have had to be ready and willing to play this game solo with an unknown PR in the mix.

[joqiza]

I think the entire, like, duality of this game might be captured by 292 followed by 293. Both votes on the flipped wolf, both right next to each other, both at the start of D2, and one is this whole ass post and process by Roadkill and the other is 7 words and a vote by SA. One is scum, one is town.

[joqiza]

308 does make me a bit nervous it feels tonally awkward and might've been setting up an excuse to get off the Dwlee wagon but idk.

[joqiza]

Yeah I think Roadkill's D2 is stronger overall. If he's scum he chose to bus Dwlee with his whole chest despite town sort of motioning in different directions at times. Sleepless didn't waver either ofc but hard to give points for that given he was the main counterwagon D2 and didn't really have the same option like Roadkill did to push elsewhere.

Kind of think scum!Roadkill could have just killed Sleepless and then bringing Looker/Andante to F5 feels like a win for them. Like just follow behind Umlaut to Sleepless, kill Umlaut or myself, and then you have F5 with Dwlee/RK/Looker/Andante/ let's say me for the 5th, a bit tough to see town limming correctly twice from there given Looker's and my own suspicion of Andante and Andante's suspicion of Looker. I mean obv you don't know who re-evals after a town!SA flip but you only need one towny to vote wrong once you hit limlo. Seems like great equity, a bit of a strange tactical choice to keep bussing if that does end up being the team tbh.

[joqiza]

Actually there is 366 so perhaps Roadkill was considering that very switch.

[joqiza]

I still like 390, that's just a good post.

It;s 1am for me so I'm going to bed now, guess we'll be wrapping this up tomorrow. until then GL and there's one more chance to bring the thunder ig as you can see I'm kind of a mess at this stuff.

[joqiza]

I'm prolly just gonna hammer around 6 or 7 my time (CST). That should give me some time to apply my clown makeup

If anyone has any final thoughts lmk now I guess

[joqiza]

me doing my pre-hammer ritual dance to appease the mafia gods

[joqiza]

i mean if you're town then you came to the correct answer through your process. i wasn't trying to invalidate it just explaining why fmpov i don't feel the case convinced me.

like for instance if we look at 250 then, in some sense, putting SA in their scumreads but not wanting to vote them on d1 seems partnered. at the same time though the whole post just feels WIFOMy and crafted with intentionality.

if i say, "SA put Dwlee at significant risk of elimination on Day 1 before the cop was outed" that feels like, an action that Dwlee would have more difficulty working in their favor if SA is their partner, compared to like... just the placement of names in their list of scumreads

[joqiza]

how would you characterize sleepless's play in the f3 fypov? i think reviewing the f3 is the last thing i want to do before i place the hammer.

i see your argument on 250 i guess it just feels weird for dwlee/sleepless to bus as hard as they did and yet have dwlee fail this level 1 distancing check. if that's the team they must have specifically wanted dwlee but NOT sleepless to flip.

[joqiza]

i know i said i'd hammer at 7pm cst but i'm gonna delay that a bit. we're taking this game to overtime

what would you say the sleepless/dwlee plan is on d1 prior to mc esther being outed? would scum!sleepless have been sure that dwlee wouldn't be limmed, and if dwlee did get limmed... what were they going to do next?

sorry if i'm asking you to do all the legwork. these are the "sticking points" for me that i can't figure out

[joqiza]

Gonna hammer in an hour probs. Tough game. Maybe the toughest i've ever played

[joqiza]

Wish I'd asked SA what changed his mind in 580 earlier ugh

[joqiza]

Taking a walk to try to clear my head then will hammer when I get back.

[joqiza]

i wish i had questions i could ask that would edify things for me but i don't, i just read over the arguments and feel like i need to make a decision but yeah

[joqiza]

Roadkill I think what it comes down to is like... not even the posts so much, but the way the game has progressed, feels like it puts a weight on you fmpov a little? And I don't know if it's fair to assign that or not, but, with you not being nightkilled compared to Sleepless, with the way Sleepless would have had to WIFOM the early game. And like, just feels like... Sleepless is not the kind of player you choose d1 to try to propel over the finish line in f3... I mean obviously he seems like it

now

and I don't mean offense to him but I mean you need someone who, is the kind of person who collects TR's regardless of their alignment, and from reading his previous games, he's just not that kind of player simply due to lower thread presence and I don't think he'd perceive himself to be

[joqiza]

And I really do like his posts in the beginning of this F3 in particular

[joqiza]

VOTE: roadkill

[joqiza]

i'm glad i chose right but more than that i'm just glad it's over. i think i typed and erased "vote sleepless" like 20 times. that was the hardest vote ive ever made.

gg all. wp to both roadkill and SA i wish there was a way we could all win this one together because i feel like we left it all out there.

thanks cat for hosting, i was a big fan of the geriatric format.

[joqiza]

I think the specific appeal of the game format for me came from: (1) low volume of posts/pages to read, (2) longer deadlines, and (3) small game size. The specific post limit per 24 hours was kinda cool but if it was a lot of trouble I don't know that it was really a necessary feature.

I think really I just need there to be at least one weekend per game-day phase where I have time to look at things, and not too many posts for me to get caught up on when I do. Whatever mechanism facilitates that is fine with me.

In terms of activity, I feel like any game with longer deadlines is gonna have natural lulls in posting. I sort of think that's okay actually. At least I don't personally mind.