Mini 2254 | Subreddit uPick | Fin

[The Bombay]

A knee ways,
I had a feeling That Idiot Ivan could be town because :waves hands: roleblocker helps scum combat all the investigatives, but I'm also not surprised that its a one shot.

Of course you did.

Looked back some, and saw that I missed this exchange.

This was suddenly Marci posting after a string of Luke posts. Marci was less convinced of my take on Ivan. She mentioned the role blocker, I mentioned that both Dwlee's flip and Ivan's claim included being immune to roleblocks.

Pretty sure every post that said that your claim had to be scum came from me.

[The Bombay]

To be perfectly clear, it's your lack of result and only that that tells you were blocked? This is important.

And let me know if anything comes of you looking at the claims compilation.

Yes.

We were told that we had gotten no result before the mods posted Skitter's flip, so I clarified that it meant our ability had failed versus no one having visited Skitter.

The mods confirmed that my ability failed.

Once I saw Skitter's flip, I stopped considering that it was something to do with her (like being immune to investigatives or something), and took it to be a role block.

Of course that could also be something like a jailkeeper.

[The Bombay]

And let me know if anything comes of you looking at the claims compilation.

Not sure what you want me to see here.

There are not all of the claims on the table either, which makes it harder to piece together what you are trying to get me to see.

[The Bombay]

Spoiler:

That's fine, I was irritated last night. Unless you think there's anything to be gained in whinging about prior assumptions made, I'd rather work on solving here today and fight over the quality of play from various players when the game's over.

I wasn't trying to star a conversation there, just clearing it up. Did not want you or anyone else to think I suddenly walked back my earlier stance, because suddenly saying I thought you might could be town would be a pretty... I don't know the right word.

Gross feels too strong. Immature feels like it is not give the right direction I meant.

But believing something, people explaining why I might have been wrong, and then going "oh, actually I thought I might have been wrong before anyways" is not something that I would want people to think I did.

Please don't respond to this. Thanks.

[The Bombay]

Not really. I have not had a strong read on them either direction.

I would not be shocked if they are scum, but I am properly scum reading both Cakez and T3, so with both of them planted on Suri, it makes me less inclined to think they are scum.

For Suri to be scum, it feels like literally all of my reads have to be wrong. x.x

[The Bombay]

I guess, that is unless this is Beloved Princess 2: Electric Boogaloo.

But after seeing Cabd's reaction to the original, I don't think he would be out here producing it's sequel.

[The Bombay]

And yes, I know bussing is a thing. But, they have just been planted on them during a plurality day. And moving to me was a pretty easy option for a bit there when LLD was pushing me, but instead BOTH of them gave us a town read while camping on Suri.

I would rather kill one of them, and start reevaluating Suri if I am wrong.

[The Bombay]

I'm also really curious why you think notscience/Rogue here is worthy of a pass

Personally, I don't know how to read notscience so I've just been vibing and praying that I don't need to be the one who has a read there.

~Marcistar

[The Bombay]

that's really gutsy for bombay or ivan to fakeclaim though.

A knee ways,
I had a feeling That Idiot Ivan

could be

town because :waves hands: roleblocker helps scum combat all the investigatives, but I'm also not surprised that its a one shot.

This T3 posts reads a bit like too much info (in That Idiot Ivan = town world), but also reads like he wants to appear like he's trying to stop the fight, but isn't really (because he isn't directing the conversation elsewhere.)

please don’t tunnel on me

I will be tunneling you until you have spoken about the chess game. Thanks!

[The Bombay]

Mastina's recent posts have dropped my read on her.

Strange to say, but her tunnel on me was propping up my read of her quite a bit.

Going from saying I am lock scum, to then seeing me and Ivan in a 1 v 1 and siding with me felt weird. Also, her stance that Ivan really was a parity cop, just a scum one, doesn't feel like a real thought.

Obviously not partnered with Ivan, but in a town!Ivan world scum!Mastina makes sense.

[The Bombay]

I also feel like marci not being able to read me is weird given this is our fourth game together. Admittedly I’m not as aggressive as I am typically here, so that might be part of it? But dunno.

Imagine actually paying attention, couldn't be me. When was the last time I exposed a read on you in any game? : )

Everything you do, literally just makes me stare, I don't know what to think of it so my solution was to just ignore you.
Something might stand out when I iso you, but I don't know for sure, and I don't know when I'll have time to do that, how much longer is this phase?

please don’t tunnel on me

Well maybe if you were town and did something townie I wouldn't have to.
(I'm not even tunneling yet tho so like, what)

~Marcistar

[The Bombay]

If T3 lets this day phase end without explaining the chess game, my vote will never leave him Day 3.

Spoiler:

This choice has not been approved by Marci.

@Mastina, I read your point about the roles being designed, and I still did not think it made sense. As someone who has doubted Ivan's claim, and given his flavor claim, is that parts of the claim were real. My expectation for the scum role has been that he really does make the PT, that he has no access to it during the night phase, but can join at the start of the day. And then

maybe,

but not necessarily, he has a list of 1 shot abilities, but that list would not include parity cop. And, even if it did, he would not have chosen to use it.

It feels like you are using that line by the mods to say that "confirmed scum" Ivan would never have a reason to lie about any part of his role.

VOTE: Mastina

The Ivan, LLD, Shiro voting block does not look like they want to go in with me on Cakez or T3, and this is fine.

[The Bombay]

UNVOTE:
Marci wants us to move back to T3.

I'm going to give us a chance to synch before we vote again.

[The Bombay]

Why does T3 only comment on useless things?

[The Bombay]

Hey guys, running a fever and slept for the last several hours, and all I want to do is go back to sleep.. Probably going to leave the reigns of this hydra to Marci's capable hands.

[The Bombay]

Probably going to leave the reigns of this hydra to Marci's capable hands.

I'm very nervous of it possibly just being a confident town problem that is something that I specifically know is something LLD does a lot as town.

Vote T3 with me then.

[The Bombay]

Hey guys, probably not going to be able to be on at all this real life day.

I think I need to ask some clarifying questions about the mech of the night, but don't have time to put any brain power towards thinking it through. See you guys tomorrow.

[The Bombay]

VOTE: Rogue



It's a weird vibe but whatever.

~Marcistar

[The Bombay]

Which head is this?

That was Luke.

[The Bombay]

PFFt I blocked Rogue so….

Oooohhh

VOTE: rogue
Okay guilty is guilty
Damn all night I felt so good about opening today voting SM aaa

It's probably just T3

This is why it's a weird vibe but I don't know.

[The Bombay]

Wait how many votes is on them right now and how many is hammer???

[The Bombay]

Okay good you made me scared I was about to unvote because I wanted to talk more about SirCakez first.

[The Bombay]

I have returned, and I have questions.

[The Bombay]

I'm a jail keeper with a hammer ability special where I block indirect kills if I hammer scum.

@StrangeMatter

What does it mean that you block indirect kills? Why are you so invested in activating this ability when we have yet to have more then one kill in a night?

[The Bombay]

Once the day ends, my role targets two players to neighborize in one neighborhood. They get immediate access to post. I'm informed of who's been chosen, and then I decide if I want to use any of my powers. Yes, powers, plural. All are one-shot. Once I submit an action or declare I'm taking no action, I gain viewing access to the PT. I can post from then on if I choose, but if I've chosen to take an action, that action is blocked if I post before night ends/mods clear me. Neighborhood dissolves when the following day phase ends and the process repeats.

I'm following along with the Shiro made Ivan loyal, Ivan activated to which should make his hood a masonry, but he hit the same people as last time?

[The Bombay]

Wait looking again, it appears that maybe Ivan was not the one made loyal, but still weird that LLD managed to be in his hood twice in a row.

Who is M2?

[The Bombay]

So shiro made mastina loyal, and mastina targetted LLD with a message?

[The Bombay]

[The Bombay]

That was at me realizing that I did not capitalize any names. Emoji might not make sense if you don't realize that.

[The Bombay]

How did Mastina know that she was being made loyal by Shiro in order to include it in her message to LLD during the night?

[The Bombay]

I'm actually very down for a mass claim for reasons that will become clear post-mass claim

Hello, we are r/CatsInBusinessAttire/.

We are an odd-night Watcher, and an even-night Commuter.

We went on a business trip last night. Was a lot of fun. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, you know?

You would expect the coordinators to eventually learn that they should move the business expo somewhere else if they want people to actually show up to the early events, but maybe they figure that the over all attendance would drop so drastically if it was somewhere less fun.

[The Bombay]

but all will be revealed soon enough

Ugh.

I feel like I should just come back to this game whenever this happens.

----

I do still want clarification from StrangeMatter regarding my earlier question though.

[The Bombay]

7. This game may have a [Talk with the Dead and/or Spectators] mechanic. DO NOT talk about this game anywhere else, or with anyone else outside of this game thread and any private topics we may make accessible to you during the game.

@Cakez, so far no one has claimed or flipped with anything related to this. So maybe you have to die.

[The Bombay]

then I think it has to be Bombay for the third scum?

Do it, clown.

[The Bombay]

Yeah we're clowning I think.

[The Bombay]

T3 really just showered up and still didn't claim.

[The Bombay]

Is your role worded basically the same as Dwlee's, just with the cop swapped out for doc?

[The Bombay]

What does you being role blocked have to do with LLD?

[The Bombay]

Secret 3:

I was ROLEBLOCKED last night.

What?

That would be a third roleblock after Suri and Strange.

[The Bombay]

With my bulletproof, SM's JK, Ivan's BP and Rogue's doctor claim, as well as T3's strong Doctor claim.

That's 5 kill immunities. I don't care how much poison is in this game, there are not 5 kill immunities.

And you did not even include our commute.

[The Bombay]

Is your role worded basically the same as Dwlee's, just with the cop swapped out for doc?

@T3

[The Bombay]

Can we kill T3 now?

[The Bombay]

Not like, right this second. But like, today?

[The Bombay]

I'd prefer a Rogue elimination here considering the circumstances of last night over a T3 elimination.

Do you realize that LLD just claimed that she was immune to the night kill last night? And if you jail kept Rogue, so were they? And so was I? And that Ivan claimed he made you bulletproof too?

Did you see that LLD claimed that she was targeted by a different killing action?


There are now many explanations for the lack of a night kill.
-You blocked Rogue from doing the kill.
-LLD was targeted with the night kill in addition to where ever the poison came from.
-Rogue was targeted with the night kill while LLD was targeted with the poison kill.
-I was targeted
-You were targeted
-Jjh was targeted, but his won condition resolved first
-The scum team could only use one of their factional kills, and they chose poison over standard. (Something like one shot poison kill, the kill is delayed until the end of the following day, but it cannot be stoped by being bulletproof or doctors).


So, like sure, Rogue's likelihood of being scum did rise if you are town and jailkept him, but you don't have a guilty on him.

I would really like for T3 to answer my question, but getting him to do anything has been excruciating, so I'm not holding my breath.

---

In before LLD decides this means I need to die, because I am not acting according to all of the secret information that so far only her and Ivan seem to know all of.

[The Bombay]

Bombay could still be scum but I'll tell you what?

I don't think T3 is. I think there are way better fake claims and way more powerful roles he could have claimed and it matching the other chess game and only existing so long as chess does and being a town and town game of back and forth.

Makes sense.

So I'm suspicious of everyone who wants T3 dead.

I think you need to put more words into this read if you want me to not immediately try to kill T3 tomorrow, thanks!

[The Bombay]

I am just going to assume that T3 is claiming to be a mirror role to Dwlee.

Spoiler: r/anarchychess was

Welcome to Subreddit Mafia!

Chess but both of the kings are gay. Almost all the pieces are supportive

You are r/anarchychess

Your Abilities are:

• Your voice and your vote
  
• Each game day you will face an unknown adversary in a chess game. The side who goes first on Day 1 will be decided by a random roll. Thereafter, the chess player who goes first will alternate each day.
  
• Each game day, the White side will have 24 hours in which to make their first move. The Black side has 24 hours in which to make their response. The player who takes the least amount of time to make their move gains one point. This will continue for 5 turns. At the end of 5 turns, if one player has lost fewer pieces than the other, that player wins the day's tournament. If they have lost the same number of pieces, then the player who earned the most points is the winner. If you are the winner, you will be able to use your night ability that night.
  
• If the game day ends before the match has reached 5 moves each, and the white player has made one more move than the black player, the game day will go into a twilight period until the Black player makes their final move.
  
• If the game day ends before the match has reached 5 moves each, and both chess players have made the same number of moves, the day will end normally and the winner will be declared based on number chess pieces remaining on the board OR via tiebreaker based on how many points each chess player has accumulated.
  
• Your night action is Strong-willed Cop. Your investigation cannot be redirected or blocked.

Your Win Condition is:
You win when all threats to

Town

have been eliminated or nothing can prevent that from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your alignment, and with the bolded line from the rules in the game thread.

Is there anything here about his ability permanently turning off if someone else dies? I don't see it. "Each day you will face an unknown adversary in a chess game." That line actually seems like it would be a lie if Dwlee stopped playing chess games just because T3 died.

Also, I don't think that an strong-willed cop and a strong-willed doctor are anywhere close in power level.

----

But okay, with his claim, he is saying that he is functionally a VT ever since the moment Dwlee died.

T3, were you the other chess player?

I don't know why I am doing so poorly at this this game.

no.

He is a VT, but stuck his foot in the ground about claiming for some reason.

r/chessporn

Even when he finally decides to break his wall of silence, he made this claim. Still refusing to say he was even a player, and frankly, looks like he is still trying to imply that he just watched the chess game.

And Rogue that doesn’t explain anything. How did you come to the conclusion to draw attention to a really bad play? Because I’m still having trouble understanding why someone on town says that and it makes more sense to be something Mafia says.

The hammer was beyond a bad play. This isn't a case of some new player ignorantly quick hammering. Suripoko are making very deliberate choices here. They started out with a gimmick to avoid having to go on record with any actual arguments. Then they quick hammered the first wagon they could. They're taking refuge in charm, amusement value, and audacity.

This isn't town behavior. Pooky will quickhammer a wagon, sure--as scum.

Why are you defending them? Just what redeeming features do you see in anything they've posted? And why should anyone townread a single post they've made?

VOTE: Suripoko
wait this could be good. i've seen pooky openwolf and lolhammer as scum.

If you are looking for a bus vote, this sure looks like one to me

Suri should die today

I’m not explaining unless I absolutely have to

Does this look like the words of a VT? Or like someone bluffing they have a secret reason?

[The Bombay]

Bombay could still be scum but I'll tell you what?

I don't think T3 is. I think there are way better fake claims and way more powerful roles he could have claimed and it matching the other chess game and only existing so long as chess does and being a town and town game of back and forth.

Makes sense.

So I'm suspicious of everyone who wants T3 dead.

I think you need to put more words into this read if you want me to not immediately try to kill T3 tomorrow, thanks!

If you think you're in control tomorrow over the town block I'm building, you once again need to check your arrogance.

I never said that I was going to have control, I said that I was going to push for it. If you don't want it to be a fight tomorrow when you are not here to explain, maybe talk about it now. If you don't mind it being a fight tomorrow, let it go I guess. Live your best life.

[The Bombay]

And you do realize that your town block did not even get the kill you wanted yesterday, when you were here to lead it, right? I seem to remember someone saying something about the importance of working with the other people you think are likely to be town. Well, here I am asking you to engage with me on the read that you and I are most split on. But fuck me I guess.

[The Bombay]

Imagine, someone not claiming at the drop of a hat.

Do you think scum came in with a plan to avoid bussing Suripoko here?

Ah yes, the true crux of my suspicions...

No, I agree with you that they decided to bus them. I don't think that the game state makes much sense otherwise.

[The Bombay]

Especially given Suri's play. I don't think that they were actually trying that hard to survive the day, which also implies they were on board with the bus.

[The Bombay]

LLD, I made the decision to try and work with you before the end of the day. I extended an olive branch, and claimed simply because you wanted me to. I stopped pushing my own reads, and moved my vote to Mastina to try and work with you.

The point of 1408 was to say that you have not said anything to make my suspicions go away, and I am not going to blindly sheep you, so maybe you should say more on T3.

And then I immediately outlined my own thoughts on the slot so you could engage with my thoughts.

I feel like you are reading a lot into my posts that I never intended to be there.

[The Bombay]

I will look back at Day 1 with that in mind, but I also think that it is possible that they knew that he was an cop at that point. T3 clearly figured out who the chess player was, so all they had to be told was that their prize was to roleblock a Strong-willed Cop.

[The Bombay]

regardless, i want people to look at day 1 and decide, if Dwlee claims and we believe Dwlee's claim and don't kill them...

who would we kill after as a result?

Just skimmed through day 1, and I just don't think that this was ever something the Poooky/Ydra were thinking about. No one was particularly close to dying other then Dwlee.

Vote Count 1-15

[img]-[/img]

Dwlee99

(7): Lady Lambdadelta, T3, SirCakez, Shiro, mastina, That Idiot Ivan, Suripoko

SirCakez

(1): jjh927

T3

(1): Dwlee99

Lady Lambdadelta

(1): skitter30

Not Voting

(3): Rogue, StrangeMatter, The Bombay

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 15, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-14 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:
Combined Mod ISO for vote counts

Malakittens head of Rogue v/la
skitter30 v/la until Sunday night
An error in VC 1-13 was fixed, the vote counter accidentally grabbed the hurt tag as a vote.
-

An Elimination Has Been Achieved!

There simply was not a counter wagon.

You, me, Rogue, and Ivan were all very safe.

T3 had some scum reads prior to 483, but a lot of people (including us) reversed their reads on him immediately following.


StrangeMatter and Shiro seemed like almost non-entities Day 1, which does leave room for them to be turned on, but there was not much to indicate that it was going to happen.

Maybe Mastina? Maybe Cakez? Both had few people voice scum reads on them, but no one was pushing very hard.

[The Bombay]

I don't know. : - (

Does this game line up with notsciences scum games? I'm so confused what to think right now can someone help?

[The Bombay]

I don't know.

[The Bombay]

THATS ENOUGH POSTING FOR THE YEAR THAT EMBARASSES ME TOO MUCH AH..

I WAS DOING SO WELL NOOO I WANNA CRY.

[The Bombay]

i never knew that dwlee was the other player.

As a result of the chess game, Dwlee should be eliminated.

"As a result of" implies you knew, or had strong reason to suspect he was a player of the game.

tbh i just realized that my logic may be a little shaky, but i think they tmi'ed something about the chess game
so i'd like dwlee to claim what he knows about the chess game.

more specifically, i think that dwlee should claim their color in the chess game.

These?? No way you "never knew that dwlee was the other player."

[The Bombay]

I feel like this is just an argument over the term "knew"

T3 already explained that he figured out that Dwlee was the other chess player because he revealed the game had a victory condition that was different then normal chess rules.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

We are down for a Cakez vote.

We are at approximately T3 > Cakez > Fuck if I know.

[The Bombay]

My scum read on T3 is not limited to the chess game. I will type up more once I am at a computer, and not phone posting.


I am struggling to have a read on Notty, and I would not normally expect Notty to flake on the game as either alignment really.

I have been kind of avoiding commenting on his absence, because I was worried I was pushing up to an out of game influence - but I double checked with the mods that this would not cross the line.

Notty and I talk on discord some (unrelated to any particular Mafia game), so I know that he is really busy and does not have time for Mafia games right now - and is even considering taking a haitus. So I think his absence in thread is NAI.

[The Bombay]

My only experience with Notty as scum was in Bloodstained, and he had a seemingly endless well of WIM, and was hyper active in the thread start to finish.

He had been super active in our town games too though.

I just get the feeling that his activity level is not linked to his alignment.

[The Bombay]

Are you actively trying to get me to kill Rogue over Cakez today?

I do not have Rogue as town, if anything I am at pure confusion for them, and definitely in the pool of "if I am wrong on T3+Cakez" look at them again.

I guess I am unsure the point of having this conversation right now unless you are trying to save Cakez.

[The Bombay]

Would you like to town case Cakez then Ivan?

It feels weird for you to be trying to save him while also giving the appearance that you find him scummy.

[The Bombay]

And, am I supposed to know your main? I am pretty bad at guessing, but your recent like about Bloodstained feels like I am supposed to know.

[The Bombay]

I had a guess, and even mentioned it to Marci, but my guess did not play in Bloodstained. So no, I do not believe I had the right answer.

[The Bombay]

Hello, I am here if my vote is needed to avoid a no elim.

[The Bombay]

Two hours before deadline seems like the time to hammer, Strange.

I don't have time to properly be on, but I'll check back in in an hour. If you have not hammered by then, I will. So probably hammer within the next hour, or whatever.

[The Bombay]

>.<

And we are sure we don't want to flash wagon T3? He does not even seem to want to be here.

[The Bombay]

Maybe it is the dead thread. Accidental Renaissance, rebirth?

That was my guess. Especially since the mods made a big deal about potential post death communication, and no one claimed anything with it.

[The Bombay]

To?

[The Bombay]

Sigh...
Do we have the people to switch the wagon?

To?

[The Bombay]

Hello friends. We are all alive. Unless someone is actually delayed dead like LLD was last day phase.

I was in Ivan's hood with T3 over night.

I have a result, but I feel like I should not out the information yet. I need to talk to Marci about what it means.

[The Bombay]

Who did you jailkeep Strange? They should be confirmed not the poisoner, right?

[The Bombay]

Also, I have a clarifying question for Mastina.

Is your ability still loyal? Did it work?

[The Bombay]

Nope that’s not how my ability works. I protected Shiro hoping they would be NKed but as it turns out my ideas are terrible.

You said you are a jailkeeper, so you would role block them, right?

Like, I understand that you might not protect from it, but I would expect it to stop the person doing it.

You are saying that you roleblocked Shiro?

[The Bombay]

Well the town has made it to the thread; I wonder when the scum team is going to show up?

[The Bombay]

I have thoughts, but I am kind of in a holding pattern until Mastina let's us know if her ability worked or not. That seems like it would be important.

[The Bombay]

Still tho, I figured that IF I did succeed with a disloyal, the scum I succeeded on might not claim it, so I was trying to aim for a player that you might be watching, so I targeted StrangeMatter last night.

You were disloyal, and you chose StrangeMatter...

No one would have know you were disloyal, why not try and trick a scum player?

"I don't know if I am still loyal, I'll have to ask Shiro in the thread tomorrow. Please respond"

Get response, get guilty.

Strange was so obviously town.

---

The implication that both Rogue and Mastina are claiming to have visited Strange, when we know scum targeted them, and I have not revealed who I watched is not being missed by me.

[The Bombay]

And also, both Mastina and Rogue claimed to have visited LLD on the night she was poisoned.

[The Bombay]

My solve is Rogue+T3, but Ivan has been impressing the need to consider Mastina as well.

Shiro and Strange are always town here.

My time in the hood overnight has convinced me that Ivan is town. I walked in suspicious of him, but not anymore.

Mastina seems mech town, but Ivan is considering Mastina used a strongman to both message LLD and Poison her at the same time. Mastina then also targeting the second poison target gives more credence to that then I originally wanted to give.

But my solve is currently T3+Rogue.

[The Bombay]

Over night, Ivan made a discovery about T3.

r/chessporn
strong willed doc, i'm now permanently roleblocked because dwlee is dead :/

This is a lie.

Because Dwlee has flipped, we can ask the mods questions about his role. If you ask the mods what would happen if Dwlee's adversary died, you will be informed that once his adversary dies, Dwlee would then "win" every day by default since his opponent failed to show up to the competition, and his cop ability would be on permanently.

So, if T3 is town, that would mean that his doctor ability was active every night since night 2.

T3 why were you so resistant to claiming? And why didn't you stick up for Dwlee?

i was reticent because i wanted to soft pr and all that so i could get niked

He was trying to draw the night kill... as a doctor? I call bs on this.

---

Once Ivan outed this information (and I also asked the mods to confirm), T3 said that he was a doctor all along. He claimed to have targetted LLD night 2 and me night 3. I made the mistake of telling Ivan who I watched before T3 claimed his target.

I have issue with T3 supposedly protecting LLD. Mainly that when Strange claimed that them roleblocking Rogue was a guilty, they did not approach the topic in a way that indicated that they thought that they stopped the night kill. I will admit that this line of logic is shaky given T3's professed confusion on how it was a guilty and professed belief that jjh was night killed. But at no point between the announcement that strange roleblocked and the announcement that LLD was poisoned does T3 seem to ever realize that he might have been the reason for the lack of a night kill. This is frustrating because T3 just has not been posting.

However, here is a timeline.
-Strange announced the guilty on Rogue in 1266. T3 was on, and noticed the guilty 1295, but seemed confused on the night kill in 1296.
-Strange corrects T3 immediately in 1297 and 1298. T3 returns to the thread with 1345, indicating that he has read

some

of the game since, but still has not seem to put together that he could be the person who stopped the kill.
-LLD then announces that they are poisoned with 1362.

LLD was the obvious night kill that day, T3 claims to have targetted her, but he says nothing about this supposed guilty on Rogue.

-----

I think that T3 is scum and has been planning to claim that he was roleblocked because of Dwlee's death. That is why he could not say anything about the guilty on Rogue, and that is why he said he was trying to draw the night kill.

This makes more sense to me then a town T3 not putting together that he might be causing a false guilty and apparently trying to get night killed while being a doctor.

[The Bombay]

After Ivan and I talked about this in the hood, Ivan has proposed the theory that what T3 won from the chess game was the unstoppable poison kill.

That would line up with the timeline that T3's ability was not active Night 1 because Dwlee won, and a normal night kill happened that night. But that the scum team has used the poison kill both nights since.

[The Bombay]

The more I think about this game, and the more I have been talking to Ivan in the hood, the more sure I am that it is Rogue+T3.

If either of you guys are town, now is probably the time to come solve the game and make me see it.

[The Bombay]

If the mods answer this with "the action would fail", would you agree that the strongmanned mailman theory was bullshit?

Ivan already said that he asked the mods this question via pm, and was told that strongman/strong-willed would allow you to go through loyal.

Also, you are making the occam's razor thing more complicated then it actually is.

The requirements for it to work are exactly that you are an (obviously) unclaimed strongman. That's it. That would have allowed you to both message LLD and poison her despite being made loyal.

And then you just... didn't send a message this day phase because you knew you were being made disloyal.

---

I agree with you that T3 makes more sense as Rogue's partner, and I think that Strongman + messenger seems like a weird ability combo.

I'm basically just interjecting because you are not currently engaging with the points that Ivan is actually making, which is a strongman Mastina is a loss for the town.

---

Also, I think it is fairly certain that either you or Ivan are dying tonight, so probably not worth you attacking Ivan for scum reading you this day phase.

[The Bombay]

I don't think that makes sense with the flavor? Accidental renaissance equals Covid?

That is the flavor of the poison, right?

[The Bombay]

I had a thought, and it forced me to do math. My original thought was wrong, but a new math based conclusion did come out of it. -- My first thought was "are we so low on numbers that a town!rogue is impossible because we would have already lost to a double poison." This was the incorrect thought, but it did make me run the numbers.

If Rogue was town, and telling the truth about being poisoned:

-We kill scum today
-StrangeMatter and Rogue both die to their poisons
-There are 4 alive
-Night kill takes us to 3 man ELo.

So, my original thought was bad. BUT we all know that Shiro is hiding behind Mastina!

-Night kill on Mastina, bonus kill on Shiro.
-There are 2 alive tomorrow, and we lost the game even if we killed scum today.

What that means is that

it is impossible for us to win if Rogue and Mastina are both town

, so we get to play this game under the assumption that one of the MUST be scum.

Mastina, Rogue is now confirmed scum from your POV (and vice versa). You're welcome.

Spoiler:

Which is nice for me, because at the start of the night phase I was actually worried about an Ivan+T3 team, and was wondering if Ivan purposefully hooded me to get a feel for who I was watching and to decide if they needed to kill me. Again, my read on Ivan changed over the night, but now I no longer need to even paranoia that thought.

[The Bombay]

Back to bed now. I was literally lying in bed, and that thought forced me to get up and run the numbers.

[The Bombay]

I wonder if Rogue realized that claiming to be poisoned would disprove all scum teams that were localized in [Bombay, Ivan, T3] ?

[The Bombay]

I looked back at my past game against scum Mastina, and I feel better calling her town here. I don't feel like she would be inclined to put Suri has her strongest town read say one, nor to hard step in the way of Suri's wagon day two. Like, neither of her partners were in her town reads/leans at all that game, the BEST they got was null. And in context, one of her partners was a consensus town read, and she easily could have put them town. Which tells me she is inclined to scum/null read her partners.

Sorry Ivan, but I did take the time to really think about scum Mastina, I just don't see it.

VOTE: Rogue

[The Bombay]

Which tells me she is inclined to scum/null read her partners.

Outside of my experience with her, I have seen other people comment that if Mastina is right on a scum read day one, that means she is scum.

I am sure that is an exaggeration. It possibly does not really apply to her town game, and is more people picking up that she regularly scum reads her partners when she is scum.

[The Bombay]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the mods would let that play out to the very end

I understand this.

My point was that considering the other possibility is a waste of time. Because if you and Rogue were both town, we lost.

Literally a waste of time for us to consider that scenario, because in that scenario we have no way to win.

So, we should always play as if it is impossible, and play to win in the other possibilities.

I guess the more accurate statement is "Rogue is either scum from your pov, or we have already lost the game and none of this matters. Either way, you play that out as if they are confirmed scum."

[The Bombay]

Okay, Rogue has been in quick hammer range for the last 12 hours, and Ivan, T3, and Mastina have all been online since then, and no quick hammer has happened.

So, from my pov, that means he is now confirmed scum. My vote won't be leaving. You guys can hammer him when ever you want at this point, unless someone has anything they want to discuss before the day is over?

I don't have anything else to say really.

[The Bombay]

Though I'm genuinely wondering, what was Bombay's result that they got from their watcher?

Oh, sorry. I thought I already said.

We watched Mastina last night. I thought she might be loyal still based off of something that Mastina said to LLD, so I wanted to watch her to see if there was any funny business with a roleblocker possibly messing up her result. Especially since LLD was role blocked. Turns out she was not even loyal though. :/

My result was that I saw Shiro, and only Shiro, visit her.

I was vague about my results at the start of the day, because I wanted to force everyone to true claim where they went during the night (see Rogue admitting to visiting you).

I was a little confused by my result, because I did not think that Shiro had a targeting move anymore. I did not know about her hiding ability, and Ivan said her loyalizer was one shot in the hood.

I got double confused once you said you roleblocked Shiro, which is why I asked you a couple questions at the start of the day about it.

At that point I was mildly worried that you lied about your target, so I got Ivan to tell me Shiro's role in the hood. But with her being a hider, everything checked out.

[The Bombay]

Guys help me I forgot the login. XOXO.

Though I'm genuinely wondering, what was Bombay's result that they got from their watcher?

That Shiro visited Mastina.

I just sent it to you

[The Bombay]

On discord.

[The Bombay]

At that point I was mildly worried that you lied about your target, so I got Ivan to tell me Shiro's role in the hood. But with her being a hider, everything checked out.

This is also what lead to me revealing who I watched in the hood. Looking back, I wish I had waited for T3 to state who he targeted first. But I had a confusing thing, and I was distracted trying to piece things together.

[The Bombay]

Okay fellas all is right in the world again.

Nasty how my thunder got stolen though.

[The Bombay]

T3, I take it you protected Mastina over Ivan? What were you thoughts in making that choice?

Shiro, do you have any way to stop hiding, or are you locked in forever?

[The Bombay]

Oh, and who was in Ivan's pt? Anything interesting happen over the night?

[The Bombay]

Oh, and who was in Ivan's pt? Anything interesting happen over the night?

Turns out it was me...

The mods did not send us the link, and this post is what alerted them to it.

[The Bombay]

T3, could your doctor protection stop the poison kill? Similar to how Strange Matter's could?

[The Bombay]

T3 scum lololol

[The Bombay]

It's like 99% just T3 here (the 1% being that it's you, Bombay)

Sure, from your pov. From my pov it is 99% just T3 here (the 1% being that it's you, Mastina).

Ivan typed up a mechanical way it was still you in the hood over night (you can confirm it exists with Shiro if you would like).

It also explained how LLD was roleblocked the night she was poisoned and how Rogue performed the poison kill on LLD despite being jailkept by StrangeMatter.

I have out lined my thoughts on it for Shiro in our hood, and basically I still think it just makes sense for it to be T3.

----

Asking Shiro if she can stop hiding determines if we can no kill today or not. Which, is fairly relevant in my opinion.

If she cannot stop hiding, we have to decide today.

If she can stop hiding, then we can no kill, and hedge against the 1% chance of you being scum.

Telling us this does no harm, since we never enter another night phase if she is locked in.

[The Bombay]

This is the big part of Ivan's case.

Night Two Actions:
Ivan bodyguards LLD and Shiro
We commuted
T3 Doc's LLD

Shiro makes Mastina Loyal
Mastina Successfully gets a message to LLD through the loyal

LLD Attempts to change forms - is roleblocked

StrangeMatter uses a jailkeeper on Rogue.
Rogue poisoned LLD

We have some questions here:

Who roleblocked LLD?
Why did Rogue's poison land?

Ivan's conclusion, and I agree, is that the last scum's ability made the jailkeep from StrangeMatter land on LLD

It seems unlikely that the third scum had another role block, since Suri had one, and a role block does not answer the question of how Rogue managed to carry out the kill while jailkept.

So, someone moved StrangeMatter's the jailkeep from Rogue -> LLD

The roles that could do that would be Bus Driver, Deflector, or Redirector.

--------

So, I think we can say that the last scum has one of those abilities. So, the question was, T3 or Mastina.

-------

Ivan landed on you, Mastina. You were loyal, and you targeted Rogue (who was scum). And everything moved to LLD. It moved your message and it moved the jailkeep (and if bus driver over redirector, then it also moved the poison kill that Rogue aimed at themselves).

------

The alternative is that T3 is a redirector. He CANNOT be a bus driver in this scenario, because it would have moved your message to Rogue when he moved the jailkeep to LLD.

[The Bombay]

(Shiro I don't know if you are checking our thread, but I sent you a message in there)

[The Bombay]

T3, could your doctor protection stop the poison kill? Similar to how Strange Matter's could?

i protected you
idk whether the poison us stopped by my doc
i was fine letting the thread think rogue was guilty

This being T3's entrance to the day makes me want to yeet him on the spot.

Not literally on the spot, but god

We are sitting in MELO, and he is the most likely elimination by an order of multiple magnitude, and he doesn't come in with an idea on how/why it could to be either me or Mastina?

[The Bombay]

I have not asked the mods, but Ivan said that she did ask. She said their take was that modifiers resolved before a bus driver, and confirmed that a loyal player could target someone of their same alignment, and then be bus driven to someone of the other alignment.

[The Bombay]

She said their take was that modifier

checks

resolved before a bus driver

[The Bombay]

It causes the role to behave as though it were roleblocked unless the target has the same alignment as the user.

This is the wording on the wiki

Ivan confirmed that in this scenario the "target" would have been rogue, and the loyal check would pass prior to the bus driver happening.

[The Bombay]

You don't believe that though. If you did why do you keep using your doctor heal on us and letting us boss around your night action?

[The Bombay]

Last post was Marci

But yeah.... You claimed you doctored us two nights in a row....

[The Bombay]

@Mastina, I wanted to see yours and T3's reaction to the Ivan case, but I kinda already disproved it.

After I saw the Ivan case, I followed up with the mods, and asked if scum could use two abilities in the same night. Specifically, I asked if Suri could use their self-redirect and their roleblock at the same time (the mods seem to answer questions on flipped characters pretty freely btw). The answer was no. A player can use one personal ability and one factional ability in the same night.

That means that you could not have used a messenger ability and a bus driver ability on the same nights.

-----

Here is my mechanical argument for T3: the chess game.

T3 has claimed that they were a strong willed doc vs Dwlee's strong willed cop. And that is the balance, either way town gets one fairly powerful role each night from the chess match.

Well, for starters I think that a strong-willed cop is MUCH stronger then a strong-willed doc at base. But once you factor in the poison, it is not even a question. As long as Rogue was alive, the strong-willed doctor was functionally useless.

I asked T3 if his ability would stop the poison kill, and his response was that he did not know.

Well, I asked the mods if Rogue's ability would be stopped by a doctor, and I was told that Rogue's ability would not be stopped by traditional protective roles, unless the ability explicitly says otherwise (see StrangeMatter's role wording). So, if his ability COULD bypass the poison, he would have known it from his role PM

I also don't think that there is a scum role that similarly punishes the cop. Suri was immune to the cop on night 1, but the cop would have gotten a result on someone else in that scenario. Rogue had nothing to hinder the cop. The last scum has to be a redirector/bus driver, and again, the cop is still getting a result, just not on their original target. Compared to the doc that

So now every single day that this game played out until the day we eliminated Rogue, it was a Strong-willed cop that sometimes gets results on targets that are not his intended target vs a strong willed Vanilla townie that visited people to mess with the watcher and tracker.

I refuse to believe that the mods made the chess game hard punish T3 (and the rest of his alignment) for trying to win the chess match, and therefore he has to be scum.

[The Bombay]

bombay is scum, because mastina is town.

I also find is suspect that he is not even looking at the case for you OR thinking about what Ivan's case meant for the world of scum!Bombay.

Like, there are questions on how LLD was Roleblocked and how Rogue performed the kill while jailkept. Neither thing could have been done my either flipped scum (suri was already dead, and we have rogue's flip). So it had to come from the final scum's ability.

Does he think that I did it?

Town T3 would have seen me tell him to flip a coin between protecting me or Mastina night 3 - and specifically told him to not tell us which he did - and then seen me claim my watcher result to Ivan in our hood before most of the thread had claimed (including him).

Spoiler:

I was actually trying to manipulate him into protecting mastina so I could see him on my watch btw, I did not say that I was watching mastina and actually implied that I was going to watch strange matter. I thought that if he suspected me he would not want to protect me, but might go onto mastina in that scenario.

So, was I bullshitting my watcher result, gambling the game on T3 not protecting mastina, and that no one else targeted mastina in any way?

Or am I a watcher that had their result, but also managed to do some tomfoolery with the jailkeep, despite players not being able to use two personal abilities on the same night?

[The Bombay]

I am ready to vote when every you guys are tbh. I have poked all of the things I wanted to poke with a stick already

Unless anyone else has any questions or things they want to discuss?

[The Bombay]

Mastina, every post you make makes me want to reconsider you being scum. But I am coming to the conclusion that maybe I naturally scum read your posting style (see FGO 2)

If you are scum, I guess I will owe penguin an apology,but I really did look into her case.

VOTE: t3

[The Bombay]

Also, T3 has just managed to out scummy you as well.