Micro 1042: Meme Wars | Fin!

[Val89]

VOTE: Dwlee99

[Val89]

[Val89]

My RVS on STD is no longer RVS, it's now an AVS (actual vote, seriously)

I'm not seeing this one. Is this based on the bugspray vote?

[Val89]

That post makes absolutely no sense, from not being there at the time, not commenting on if, and counting multiple times.

We have two slots (MegA and Bugspray) claiming they miscounted the number of votes on STD's wagon. Looking back, I can see how Prisms vote being for "Dragons" could have caused some confusion on a quick glance, so I am willing to buy that one.

Value of E-1ing for no reason= ???

I do find the other implication of Meg saying "I almost accidently hammered" interesting, however. Are you saying you didn't have any reason to actually suspect STD, but would have considered joining the wagon if your vote would have been E-2, but not when it would have E-1? Why?

[Val89]

VOTE: Bugspray

Yeah, this feels off. How many times has Dwlee actively contributed, by that definition? In fact, what about me? It looks like one of those metrics thats makes sense on the surface, but it's obviously a bunch of crap after a moments reflection.

Is a Three wagon something you don't want taking off, for some reason?

[Val89]

The comment about three is interesting/maybe weird though as it implies three is wolfy or at least notable even though I don't think Val said anything about them

I don't think three is all that wolfy, to borrow your term, but I do think the timing was notable. The whole "LETHAL WAGON" business was premature, and to my mind, obviously over the top in such a way that I can't help but wonder if it was actually calculated to draw attention; which isn't something I would usually expect from scum, but I can think of a small number of scenarios scum might chose to do so - one of which is if a wagon is about to take off on a powerfull PR, and a three wagon looked like it was just about to start rolling. I also considered the possibility it was aimed at distracting from the discussion around STD, but the Three votes were the immeadtely procceding posts.

I do find myself musing today, however, that such a thing is less likey in a micro game and I might have been barking up the wrong tree with respect to motivation, but it still feels

off

to me.

[Val89]

The story of what happened to Meg should be obvious btw.
meg saw the votes and though ooooh looks like STD as it e2 I should get spicy and e1
and then meg decided to count again

and was like OH NO BUGSPRAY IS A SPICY CAN OF BUGSPRAY, BETTER NOT HAMMER! LOL!!!

and then meg just didn't vote STD because then we'd see a townie get yeeted with no useful info

I'm struggling to follow what this is supposed to mean, in particular the portion I've highlighted.

What is a 'spicy can of bugspray', and why would your presence in the game affect Megs decision to put STD at E-1 or not?

[Val89]

Meg - Did bugsprays' existence in this game have a bearing on your decision to vote or not vote STD, as 145 seems to suggest? Is there some history between the two of you I am missing?

[Val89]

I'm townreading Esooa.

I wasn't quite so sure about Prism, but I've realised my main hangup there - mainly, that if they were taking issue with Pav's defense of bugspray in 164 (it wasn't actually an unvote of bugspray, but three, but I can see Prism's intended meaning) because they consider the perfomative and agressive proactivity to be scum indicative in the case of bugspray, why would your first instinct be to start a new wagon on Pav over bugspray? - isn't all that big a deal, because when I looked more closely at the rest of the justification Prism gave for disliking Pav, I can see how Prism might consider a scumread on Pav, in aggregate, to be stronger.

for now I kinda wanna say that one of these two voting me is probably scum

Unless what Prism pointed out in my posts is in fact as bad as Prism thinks it is, which I'm not sure it is

Which would give me Esooa....

I don't like this though, at all. It was this that prompted me to look closer at what Prism was saying about Pav, but I'm not understanding the reasoning for deducing scum is voting for him. I can understand if he was scumreading the two slots that voted for him anyway, but it appears that he is starting with the premise that scum (but only one scum?) is on his wagon and then try and read which of the two it is from there, which doesn't feel organic; particulary since I'm townreading Essoa, and I've convinced myself I don't really have a problem with Prism either.

I still think bugspray is flipping red, particulary since there doesn't appear to have been any context I've been missing that would explain my issue with 145. I've had a look, and the other possibility I was considering; that bugspray has a not_mafia-esqe reputation for hammering any wagon that hits E-1 (which might have explained some of dwlee's posting) appears to be a bust too. We should be looking there, next.

VOTE: Pavowski

That vote puts Pav at E-1

[Val89]

@Mods: There looks like there is an issue with VC 1-5 at post 150.

I can't see where bugspray was ever voting Pav.

[Val89]

The rest of my reads, just in case.

I'm townreading Essoa as I said previously, overall this is my strongest read. I'm also townleaning Meg and Prism, and I would call Three a townlean independantly of the issue I have with the timing of bugspray's "can I interest you elsewhere" post but because of it, on a scum!bugspray flip, as I expect, I would be looking there more closely, as I would STD.

Dwlee is null currently, there was an initial temptation to consider 119 the laziest chainsaw defense there ever was; but I can see a possible town motivation for it if they were waiting to see who bites. Not much else going on with that slot.

STD scumlean, Pav and bugspray scum.

[Val89]

Who do you think is at risk of lolhammering you here; or this more of a "I need some time to discuss a possible fakeclaim with my scum buddies" thing?

I'm here, but not unvoting. This game needs a kick in the ass one way or another.

[Val89]

Yes.

[Val89]

Well, it's a bit moot now, but no, I wouldn't unvote as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I had a game previously where I correctly deduced someone was scrambling for more time in order to discuss things in the scum PT before they were forced to claim, so I know it happens, and I'm scumreading you.

At least I'm pretty sure this spews Meg as not being the person you are potentially waiting for if you do flip red, so there is that.

[Val89]

Interesting that you're town reading me. How come?

I liked your posting. Even though I disagree with some of the takes, I can see the logic behind them and how a townie would get there, with the exception of 138, where I can't see any angle anyone would find that AI, but there is effort being made to sniff out the AI things in even small ISOs. I know this is pre-flips, but the fact that both my strongest scumreads are gunning for your slot helps, too.

I am wondering though, out of everything I've posted,why this is the thing you wanted to ask about. I get that evaluating the reasons behind a read can help sort the slot giving it, and I wouldn't have raised an eyebrow if you had asked about any but your own.

Why move off Pav, here?

[Val89]

Why wait to be asked?

[Val89]

Well, it's a bit moot now, but no, I wouldn't unvote as a 'gesture of goodwill'. I had a game previously where

I correctly deduced someone was scrambling for more time in order to discuss things in the scum PT before they were forced to claim

, so I know it happens, and I'm scumreading you.

At least I'm pretty sure this spews Meg as not being the person you are potentially waiting for if you do flip red, so there is that.

I mean, this is just making it hard for me to take your vote on me seriously.

If you're town, what's the harm in giving me a little time to defend myself / get some more thoughts out of me?

If I'm scum, and I lie, and you still push my lim through, you have the added value of seeing how the plist reacts to my claim.

Scum often feel more compelled to commit to their reads rather than entertain doubt, and this smacks of that to me.

Pressure came off this one far too quick, folks.

[Val89]

To be more explicit, there was and still is absolutely nothing stopping you from defending yourself anyway, and you should have been doing so. Even if you think I am scum, you know I'm not going to be hammering you because I've just laid the E-1 vote.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from defending yourself at E-1. The 'more thoughts' we get out of you I prefer to be your off-the-cuff thoughts, not ones you've had time to think about and/or discuss with a scum buddy.

[Val89]

It's cool that you made a correct read in that situation in that game, but you are wrong this time. Nothing to say about the rest of my post, huh?

The rest of your post? You mean:

Scum often feel more compelled to commit to their reads rather than entertain doubt, and this smacks of that to me.

What do you think should have given me doubt between putting you at E-1 and now, exactly? Is "if you are town, pretty please unvote me so I can prepare my defense instead of giving it now" supposed to give me pause?

Day 1 is less than half over and you were ready to ram through my elimination.

I put you at E-1. I don't regret doing so. I think Meg and Esooa were premature in unvoting, and I think this framing demostrates why.

Let me ask you this - if you are town, were you happy with the state of the game a few hours ago?

[Val89]

The doubt shouldn't come from me. I could say anything as scum to save my skin. It should come from the makeup and the circumstances of the wagon you were all gung-ho to ram through.

Well, your assertion that I'm scum because I've remained commited to my read in 243 certainly seems to imply that. I note the continued framing of my E-1 vote as being 'gung-ho to ram through' your elimination, and hope others are also paying attention.

But -- as you pointed out -- the pressure is off, at least for now, so this point is now moot.

And this is exactly my issue, and your attempt to frame me as scum for applying that pressure gives me no reason to believe I am on the wrong track.

I would still like to know who you think my partner is, since you're so confident I'm scum myself.

I don't see any reason you couldn't be scum with any of the slots of which I am suspicious. If you are interested as much as you say you are, then that imply you use beleive there is some value to be ascribed to D1 assocatives, and again, I ask (while flashing the side eyes at those who unvoted here) whether the descriminating power of those assocatives, and any claim that might be forthcoming, are higher when you are spewing them with the axe swinging over your head, or after you've had some time to prepare and perhaps discuss what to do with any scum partners. If you

are

town, I would expect you to share your unfiltered and accurate reads and thoughts regardless.

[Val89]

don't know what I think about a role cop claim but sure

+1. I felt much the same about STDs claim, but I think it's the sort of thing that will sort itself out fairly quickly, and if they do turn out to be scum together then this game is basically going to take care of itselt. Let's put a pin in it for now.

STD and Bugspray, then. Fair enough.

You can add Dwlee to that list, also.

I said in my 218 I was reserving judgement on Dwlee, but clearly he wasn't waiting to see who might endorse his unexplained scumread of me as a gambit as I did consider he might be for a moment, and having seen the justification, it smells very strongly of after-the-fact justification, given I didn't reference my initial reaction to Dwlee's post until 218. It's also interesting to see the "scum is in X of ..." lists, and, more precisely, the fact Dwlee isn't mentioned in any. Perhaps it ought not be a suprise when I look at the slots giving those lists however - namely, bugspray and Pav.

VOTE: Bugspray

Yeah, this feels off. How many times has Dwlee actively contributed, by that definition? In fact, what about me? It looks like one of those metrics thats makes sense on the surface, but it's obviously a bunch of crap after a moments reflection.

Is a Three wagon something you don't want taking off, for some reason?

This is a chainsaw attack and then saying I'm chainsawing is funny

Even if this was something Dwlee was thinking and not saying, then it is still something that proves itself false after a scum!bugspray flip anyway and given the recent posting, I am quite sure that is what we will see.

Spoiler: Bugspray and the MegA non-vote

The story of what happened to Meg should be obvious btw.
meg saw the votes and though ooooh looks like STD as it e2 I should get spicy and e1
and then meg decided to count again

and was like OH NO BUGSPRAY IS A SPICY CAN OF BUGSPRAY, BETTER NOT HAMMER! LOL!!!

and then meg just didn't vote STD because then we'd see a townie get yeeted with no useful info

I'm struggling to follow what this is supposed to mean, in particular the portion I've highlighted.

What is a 'spicy can of bugspray', and why would your presence in the game affect Megs decision to put STD at E-1 or not?

Instead of answering the question (and I suspect it's becuase bugspray had no answer), the narrative shifts. Now suddenly bugspray decides

The only game I played with Bugspray was a single jester game.

The only reason I would've voted would be to put someone up to E-1 way too early for funsies (it is meme wars after all). Thankfully I decided to be a little more serious.

Is incompatible with 71, but correct me if I am wrong, wasn't the fact that Meg decided an early E-1 would be 'spicy' (I take that to mean the same as 'for funsies') and then elected not to exactly the 'obvious' story bugspray gave us when the decided to elect themselves MegA Spokesperson on the matter a few days ago?

I'm not seeing any possible town motiviation for, having been asked a question about something that doesn't make sense, coming back having not posted in thread for over 48 hours to take the opposite position and make out like nothing happened.

VOTE: Bugspray

[Val89]

I think this is town Bugspray though.

And I clearly don't.

I've given my reasons why I think bugspray is flipping red, strongly enough that I want to see that flip today knowing I've giving you ammo to push my own mislim if I am wrong, given your stated justification for scum reading me.

What are you reasons for thinking town?

[Val89]

I've just noticed I did a whopsie when talking about about Dwlee in my last-but-one. Sorry.

[Val89]

val's read on me is either fucking stupid or willfully ignorant

Go on. I'll bite.

How so?

[Val89]

And I clearly don't.

I've given my reasons why I think bugspray is flipping red, strongly enough that I want to see that flip today knowing I've giving you ammo to push my own mislim if I am wrong, given your stated justification for scum reading me.

What are you reasons for thinking town?

I'll hear it from you, also, Dwlee.

Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but I see very little reason to why I would ever entertain a townread on bugspray, except perhaps the 'TSTBS' angle Pav has pushed twice now, that I've already considered myself.

The response from bugspray so far looks essentially to be a "lol" defense, and you shouldn't need me to tell you why, seeing that, I'm still happy bugspray is the best place for my vote.

Given I've been ignored once, I'm not convinced I'm having a good faith discussion rather than arguing with a buddy here, but let's see, shall we?

[Val89]

And I think you are trying not to engage in order to avoid spewing associatives.

Independant of your read on me, can we talk about bugspray?

[Val89]

Sure

Are you waiting for me to repeat the question a third time?

[Val89]

This one?

What is it I'm looking for?

[Val89]

Alright, but how about a few words about why you were TRing bugspray in the first place?

What meta case did you think there was that you now seem to be telling us you might have been wrong about?

Give me something that might provide some measure of reassurance there has been at least some logical basis for the stances you've taken this game.

[Val89]

Before I forget again:

Scum game
Town game

I'm not entirely clear what the point of this excerise is, Eoosa, but there you are.

[Val89]

Esooa*

[Val89]

VOTE: pooky i see we have a volunteer

Yep. Bugspray is really doing solving here, right?

Pooky, I am assuming the "really scary lady who keeps staring daggers" is a reference to Esooa, and I have to ask: why do you want a wagon there?

[Val89]

Call it a playstyle difference if you will, but I can't help but think it would be better if you just went ahead and stated your case, Pooky, rather than have us watch you and STD play 20 questions.

[Val89]

are you even reading my posts?

Yes. Currently, STD is doing a fine job acting as a spokesperson and answering as I would, but since I don't know either of your alignments for certain, I stand by my assertion it would be better if you just outlined your case for everyone.

Do you have a problem doing so?

[Val89]

The fact that this looks like it is about to result in two or more parallel conversations only serves to prove my point.

[Val89]

Oh, you were talking to me? Not STD now? I think that confusion proves my point further.

I've not gone through it with a fine toothcomb, but I've skimmed it, and my reaction was the one it appears STD had; that is to say, I couldn't detect any obvious difference between the two. I don't think I'm being dumb, either. As such, I think the onus is on you to indicate what difference you perceive because that looks like two on the record as saying there doesn't appear to be one now.

[Val89]

Who?

[Val89]

Who do you want to tell you one thing they remember from Esooa's happy face iso?

Are you seriously telling you don't understand why this socaratic parallel conversation business we have going on now is just straight up bad, when you have to make posts like that one?

Pedit: You didn't specify who out of me or STD you were offering to talk 1v1 with, and you've apparently responded to both of us since. I think you are doing a stellar job of proving the exact point I was trying to make right now.

Please, state your case on what you perceive the difference between the two ISOs are, and why you think those differences are attributed to having rolled scum this time around. I'm not asking simply because I want to see if there is anything I've not seen yet that might throw doubt on my own read of Esooa and cause me to re-evaluate, but also to assist in reading your own slot.

[Val89]

I admitted to having only skimmed the happy face ISO, and I already said that having done so, I saw no immeadite difference between the two. You talk about it as if the two are night and day, and I thought there was a possibility you might actually have something. My initial interjection was more about feeling it was a bit of a waste of time watching you go back and forth with STD instead of you just stating your case, but I am fairly certain now you don't actually have anything at all, and you've been caught out as such.

The floor is still open for you to actually come up with the receipts here, and show me up to be the frozen scum you purport to find me. I do fully expect you to either ignore me, or try dodge your way out of doing so, however, and convict yourself in the process.

I don't think you have a legitimate case on Esooa. I'm not one for the memes myself, but I understand it is how some players choose to play. Your memes on Esooa however have been totally contentless from the start. I can see the game revelvence of memes like STDs 434, but pray tell, what exactly was 319 supposed to say about Esooa, or any of the other slots in this game, exactly?

I think Esooa is deserving of the townreads she's got. I think you don't have a case at all. I don't think bugspray has ever had a legitmate case on Esooa either. Furthermore, I'm thinking that the fact you and bugspray are both pushing Esooa while simulatanously throwing shade in my direction is not co-incidental, and I think I was right on the money about the motivation for bugsprays OTT 'NO! We are doing Essoa today goddamit!' post at 113 when Three started to pick up votes way back when. I think their vote on you today was some attempt at distancing given I've verbalised that suspicion already, and frankly, if they want to bus you, and nobody wants to join me in voting bugspray, then I'm happy to help them here.

Let's see what bugspray does here, shall we?

VOTE: PookyTheMagicalBear

[Val89]

I do fully expect you to either ignore me, or try dodge your way out of doing so, however, and convict yourself in the process.

Almost as if I called it...

[Val89]

Of course you do.

[Val89]

If only there was someway we could resolve this, eh?

I know! Someone else ask Pooky or the reciepts. Just don't post a wall.

[Val89]

I've used this kind of push before as scum so I don't like Pooky atm for town, but I'll need to check if there's a legitimate difference in the iso.

Why is it you suppose Pooky hasn't just come up with the goods for us, and save you and everyone else the trouble?

[Val89]

Not sure what you mean by this

Well, I take this...

As for the stuff recently with pooky/esooa I'll need to go over the isos which I can do now. I've used this kind of push before as scum so I don't like Pooky atm for town, but I'll need to check if there's a legitimate difference in the iso. Either way I don't think it reflects on esooa's alignment much

...to mean you've recognised that it's worth looking at to see if Pooky had some reasonable basis for their Esooa read in order to potentially glean something about Pookies alignment, even if you think it's not going to be particulary helpful in sorting Esooa herself.

If you have concluded there are some differences in the ISOs, but it's not a strong case, why do you suppose Pooky represented it this way:

Spoiler: Just scroll down

just scroll down it's not even comparable in terms of engagement/hunting

dude just pull up the two isos window by window lay them next to each other and start scrolling

how is this even remotely similar

I don't see any real difference, but even if you think there are some differences, Pooky obviously overcooked the issue by a considerable margin, and my question to you (which was mostly hypothetical, since I think the answer is fairly obvious) is why, if Pooky thinks they have such a convincing case - they don't explain what difference it is they see when it's clear others aren't seeing it, rather than just continue to repeat the "just scoll down!" mantra.

I think Pooky has no real case on Esooa. The best they can do is to oversell some minor differences, if there are any at all, between her ISO in this game, and one in a Large Theme game she played 9 months ago. Pooky knows they've got nothing, but if they continue insisting there obviously is, and you are all stupid for not seeing it enough times, then at the very least we might all start buying Pooky beleives there is something there enough to excuse them joining bugsprays shitpush without arousing too much suspicion.

The "No! YOU are the scum!" and "I'm not reading your posts" reaction is the predictable (enough that I called it in advance) result I've seen when challenging scum a few times previously. I don't recall a time a town player has ever scumread me and said they would ignore me/implied I was an idiot and not worth responding to after being challenged.

[Val89]

Thought you didn't read walls?

You case on Esooa is hot garbage because there is no obvious difference in the ISOs, certainly none that qualify for a "dude, just scroll up" read. Your case on me is hot garbage because I wouldn't know that was the case without having doing the read/compare part.

Now, this is the part where you either point out those differences and show me up, or continue to try and dodge it and prove me right. Balls in your court.

[Val89]

Addressed to nobody in particular, but it would be nice if this game got a bit of attention once in a while.

I can forgive IRL issues, I can forgive if there is some sort of scumplay underway that involves shirking until deadline, but I know you can't

all

be scum.

[Val89]

Addressed to nobody in particular

[Val89]

We need a flip to get somewhere at this point.

Good job missing the point, there Pav.

You are settled on flipping me, fine. Likewise, I have my suspisions towards you. I'm no longer concerned about STD at this point. I had my concerns about the claim, but I suspect out of the two claims out there, if either are fake, the likleyhood is it is yours; having tailored yours to fit what STD was claiming not realising STDs claim was weird anyway, but whatever, there is a chance it's legit, and you might have a chance to prove yourself if so.

I don't really want to do Dwlee today. I'm certainly not townreading there, but out of all the slots on my radar, that's the one where I can see potential for town who just isn't engaging, and, particulary as it seems Esooa's last posting seemed to suggest she was advocating for some sort of policy lim rather than being sure they were scum, it's a slot I would want to leave for now. I am confident the mystery of their alignment isn't going to remain hazy forever. Prism has been MIA for days, and fine, there are circumstances, but it's clear they aren't reading the thread in any depth, and have I to roll my eyes when they then ask why people aren't sheeping them on Meg. That one ain't happening, although it looks like they have acknoldeged that at least.

My main issue is that I see the deadline ticking closer. I know I am not going to be around much tomorrow, if at all, and seeing I am the focus of one of the few viable wagons here, I have to decide if I care enough about this game to stay up past my bedtime. I realise I am probably playing in to your hands a bit here and making myself an easier target, but its the truth of the matter, and I'm findinging it difficult to care when I get the sense others don't. I appologise if that sense is misplaced.

[Val89]

Do you think if I say MegAzumarill's name, they will show up and move their vote somewhere useful?

[Val89]

I admit to drunk posting, which my be colouring my judgement a bit; but I think I'll bank the play advice and whatnot until after I know the alignment of the person giving it. It just feel stoo easy to manipulate otherwise.

[Val89]

Someone tell me there is no fucking way Esooa is scum with Pooky, right? Tell me I know

something[/i[] about this game...

[Val89]

No, bugspray wanted us to move on to Esooa when three was under preasure. That can't be.

[Val89]

Why would this

Val89 wrote:
No, bugspray wanted us to move on to Esooa when three was under preasure. That can't be.

matter ?

Pooky WAS Three until the replacement??

[Val89]

Okay but how would a townies actions make a s/s world of pooky and esooa be impossible?

Are you townreading bugspray?

[Val89]

Bugspray would have to be town is pooky and esooa are both scum.

Why? If this is a numbers thing, I orginally thought it would be a like a newbie game with a bit of spice, with 2 scum though; but we've seen the claims, and I saw a scummy slot slip the possibility of three scum (I thought it was Pav, but a quick look in the ISO and i can't find it), and suddently the world made a lot more sense.

Remember, this is what the mod had to say about the setup.

[Val89]

i don't think scum!meg exists in the same universe as 1, probably 2, scum in {esooa, prism, val} but i feel brain wack

Nevermind, it was bugspray, not Pav.

[Val89]

"balanced, but a little swingy"

We are in danger of swinging in on that mechtalk you yourself said you wanted to avoid, but we've had two wagons today, both resulting in PR claims (all be them X-shot). Putting aside the fact I thought at least one was probably fake, this is obviously shaping up a PR heavy game. 3 scum could balance for that, while being swingy and you can't tell me with the way slots have been acting, that doesn't make more sense. I've kept my mouth shut so far for reasons probably simular to your own, and I can't comment on the normals of 5-8 years ago because I wasn't around at that time. If there is potential town (and I'm still townleaning on your slot) are labouring on a illusion it has to be 2 scum, I think now the time is to say somehing, and you have to explain why bugspray implied 3 scum, although admittedly that was also post-claim.

[Val89]

That's what "swingy" means, no? You can go very quick from winning to losing? I would say an "abundance of clears", or at least semi-clears, is something that is possible from a town-PR heavy setup, given what we know already.

In any case, I conceede the point that 2 scum mean bugsprays actions do not rule out a Pooky/Esooa team. I'm struggling to tally Esooa's declaration that she would vote you over Pooky with the townread I've had on that slot. Pooky has basically scum claimed at this point to my eyes. What is Esooa saying with that? That Pooky has good cause to meta case based on that Happy face game and she is scum? It makes no sense.

[Val89]

How have you evaluated that, when Pooky refuses to tell us what it is they are saying, exactly?

[Val89]

As far as compromise wagons go, I think bugspray absolutely has the best chance of hitting scum, regardless of number. Not sure it's entirely nessacary given 535 and Meg's indication they would hammer a Pooky wagon though.

Pedit: There you go. No need.

[Val89]

Or perhaps not. My answer on bugspray is still yes, though, if that wasn't clear. I'm not entirely sure what is giving people pause on Pooky, though.

[Val89]

I don't really want to do Dwlee today. I'm certainly not townreading there, but out of all the slots on my radar, that's the one where I can see potential for town who just isn't engaging, and, particulary as it seems Esooa's last posting seemed to suggest she was advocating for some sort of policy lim rather than being sure they were scum, it's a slot I would want to leave for now. I am confident the mystery of their alignment isn't going to remain hazy forever.

I still stand by this one, as far a Dwlee is concerned. I think we had a demonstration of the difference earlier in the day. Dwlee scumread me, but still engaged with me on rhe issue of their bugspray read. Pooky scumread me, and decided that was a convenient excuse therefore not to bother engaging with respect to their Esooa read.

I might be perhaps biased because I was the target of corrosponding scumread, but it might be someone else later on, and I know which of the two I think the rest of the player list will get a better read on going forwards based on that difference in behavior alone.

[Val89]

I might hammer pooky just for the meme but I'd still prefer val lim methinks

Well, you and Meg can't both hammer.

You had sufficient time to think about bugspray, now?

[Val89]

I was about to come in all gung-ho about bugspray being the one to initial suggest there were 3 scum that started me thinking that way, but re-reading what I thought was the offending post (271), I think I might have misread it myself.

Regardless, despite the depiction of my read being "fucking stupid or willfully ignorant", bugspray has failed to explain why either of the two apply, and I'm pretty sure my initial feeling at to the motivation behind 113 was right on the money from the start - the misgivings I had about it, namely that I was townleaning on Three, have evaporated on confirmation that the three/pooky slot was indeed mafia. That confirmation also essentially townlocks STD as far as I am concerned.

this game is going nowhere

can we just murder someone already

VOTE: pooky i see we have a volunteer

Putting aside the wierd second/fake/what-ever-it-was vote on the Pooky wagon, this reasoning for joining the red wagon (well, the lack of, more preciesly) gives me no reason to give bugspray any credit for having been on Pookies wagon when it flipped.

Furthermore, I'm thinking that the fact you

[pooky]

and bugspray are both pushing Esooa while simulatanously throwing shade in my direction is not co-incidental

If Esooa is indeed cleared by STDs roleblock, then that's another mark in the scum!bugspray column for me.

VOTE: Bugspray

[Val89]

can you explain my fake e-1 on pooky

I'm not sure what you are actually asking here. If you are Pookies partner, as I am theorising, then a fake vote on your partners wagon is meaningless.

Are you suggesting that vote somehow clears you?

[Val89]

You say there is 2 scum, hence only 1 remaining; and that I am 'fabricating' the reasoning behind your actions, and 'moving the goalposts' with a stance that 'feels so forced'.

And yet you are voting for Meg. Curious.

[Val89]

the fact that I voted pooky while pooky was on e-2

You didn't. You were already voting Pooky, as was pointed out at the time (581).

then urged a player who has since flipped town via NK to hammer

You didn't. You said literally nothing to prism, who is the only "flipped town via NK". In fact, you said literally nothing to anyone at any time between your initial vote and the flip, apart from the fake vote with a naked "E-1".

It took me all of ten seconds to confirm both of those as straight-up lies by opening your ISO. Who do you think you are fooling here? I know there was a palpable sense of apathy around in the later part of D1, but come on...

[Val89]

you think scum was bussing their PR?

Bussing to me would be if bugspray had argued for Pookies lim, but notably they didn't do that - they voted Pooky as the second vote on the wagon after StD had made a naked vote, giving no justification for doing so except, seemingly, that Pooky said something like "can we just lim someone"?.

I don't think that was a wagon that the scum team was expecting to result in a lim. I think it was part of the "TSTBS" play it looks to me that bugspray has been going for since the open - perhaps, given I said I had an independant townread on three, but was very suspicious of the timing of bugspray attention grabbing Esooa posting just as a three wagon was getting traction earlier in the day, it was intended to give me and others like me further reason not to suspect Pooky. It's very likely that vote would have drawn some attention in a 'why in earth are you voting there' sort of way, rather than a 'ohh, good vote' reaction, and I think it's probable we would have been discussing that rather than wagoning pooky had the bear not used my questioning of their Esooa read to go all in on securing my mislim and essentially made it a 1v1 I suspect they wrongly thought they would win.

You might have a point if bugspray had been arguing for that lim and had given reason for people to join it, but they did the opposite and it smells to me like a distancing vote that went wrong, rather than a concentrated bus.

[Val89]

Bugspray was there to reinforce the Pooky vote (the weird e-1 post) so presumably they could have switched if in fact the situation were "going wrong" as you say here.

Your argument as to why the bugspray weird e-1 non-vote is clearing is because scum wouldn't want Pooky, who was a PR, dead, right? That's the vibes I get from 705 and the ilk.

You might have a point if bugspray did indeed 'reinforce' (and I'm taking that to mean 'draw attention to and make more likley to pass') the Pooky vote, but, lets remind ourselves of reaction to that post:

Spoiler: Reception to the bugspray "vote"

I could vote Bugspray for sure, could vote Meg. Could vote Dwlee. Don't want to vote anyone else

like look at this

I would flash wagon bugspray off that sure

Whether he was already voting Pooky or not, bugspray's vote there is no bueno

tempted to switch

Looks pretty clear to me that if anything was in danger of derailing that Pooky wagon at the last minutue, it was that vote.

[Val89]

I said "reinforce" because my understanding was bugs was already voting Pooky when he made the e-1 post

Correct. Bugspray voted Pooky as the second vote on the wagon, on obviously shitty justification that is really no justification at all, following an essentially naked vote by STD. Thereafter, there was no input on that wagon, or the game more widely, until that fake post. Bugspray straight up lied about casting the E-2 vote. It appears that way on the final VC because there were unvotes and revotes in the meantime, but they cast the vote on Pooky second on the wagon and essentially dipped from the game until that fake-vote we are discussing.

That is was the E-2 vote was the first provable lie. The second was that they encouraged Prism to hammer Pooky. They did nothing of the sort. You have to ask yourself, why make that fake e-1 post the focus here, and secondly, why tell those lies, given they are so easily falsifiable? I think its obvious that a) there is a narrative being sold that the fake E-1 is somehow clearing, and b) if nobody buys that, then there is the old TSTBS standby - why would scum!bugspray draw so much attention to themselves, afterall? I note you (Pav) have been the one to endorse the TSTBS perspective, and I think if we are in a 2 scum world, which I think is more likley overall, you are being a bit of a useful idiot here and walking exactly into this scumplay.

Spoiler: Pav on bugspray

I would really like to scumread bugspray but like

I just ... can't picture scum drawing attention to themselves with this weirdness

But yet again I find myself thinking "why does scum!bugspray do weird shit like this" and in a more existential sense "why does anybody do anything like this"

I also didn't love Bugspray's votes on Pooky with time winding down, but you think scum was bussing their PR?

I very much doubt given Bugspray's posts in thread that they were simultaneously in the scum PT saying "sorry I have to bus you here, it'll destroy my cred if I don't"

(Because what cred?)

By this rationale, scum!bugspray was attempting to derail a Pooky wagon by ... voting Pooky, appearing scummy, and getting wagoned himself?

Intentional or not, the effect of bugspray intervention was not to make a Pooky lim more likley, which appears to be the logical plank around which the "well, Pooky was a PR, so that makes bugspray less likley to be scum" argument is built. It could well have been intentional - even if it didn't work there is the positive effect in that we are having this debate now, and there was no real downside in that it didn't help flip Pooky - whether you think bugspray intended it or not, I think the posts I've quoted, and you are welcome to go re-read yourself, show the actual outcome was in fact to almost cause the derailment of that wagon. I personally do think bugspray knows how scummy they are being, however, and are playing into that.

I understand why bugspray is trying to tell us that one post torpedos the scum!bugspray theory, and forget everything else they've done, and I understand why they are willing to openly misrepresent the circumstances around that post to do so. I'm not so sure why you would buy that, though. To consider it in anyway clearing, or even a tick in the town!bugspray coloumn, is bad logic, and I know people disagree on reads but to me it's patently obviously bad. You said yourself at the time that vote was "no beuno". What did you mean by that?

[Val89]

val this is a question for you:
When I flip green and it turns out you are completely wrong and made a stupid gameplay decision to ignore the reasons why I cannot possibly be scum what will you do?

You would have to show me the reasons you can't possibly be scum before I can make any decision to ignore them.

If you are hoping to AtE me out of pushing for your lim today, I wouldn't bother. I think you are flipping red, and if I am wrong about that, then the fact I was right about Pooky will shield my fragile ego enough I won't have a breakdown and be unable to continue playing, I am sure.

You might have a chance of persuading me with a solid explaination as to how your play this game makes sense from a town perspective, but that sort of bullshit won't get you anywhere.

We can start with your 715 if you like. If you are saying a fake e-1 is something you do in basically every game you play, why are you representating as AI elsewhere?

What town motivation I was there for lying about which position on the wagon you cast your vote, and what you did or didn't say to Prism?

Let's start with those. I'm willing to listen, because you will likley either persuade me I'm wrong, or else convict yourself and make this a lot easier, just as Pooky did.

[Val89]

When did I lie about whatever the fuck you're talking about?

the fact that I voted pooky while pooky was on e-2

You didn't. You were already voting Pooky, as was pointed out at the time (581).

then urged a player who has since flipped town via NK to hammer

You didn't. You said literally nothing to prism, who is the only "flipped town via NK". In fact, you said literally nothing to anyone at any time between your initial vote and the flip, apart from the fake vote with a naked "E-1".

It took me all of ten seconds to confirm both of those as straight-up lies by opening your ISO. Who do you think you are fooling here? I know there was a palpable sense of apathy around in the later part of D1, but come on...

[Val89]

I suddenly understand the target audiance for those posts.

[Val89]

also it doesn't benefit scum

They said something about E-1 and pooky and don't do that if scum and probably true?

I would count that as a benefit. I asked (rhetorically) earlier who you thought you were fooling with that crap, and the answer is apparently Dwlee, so....yeah.

[Val89]

i'm stuck i think bugspray is more likely but i don't think they play that with their scumpartner but it could be they just play erratically always

Chalk it up to my relative inexperiance, but I think you are going to have to explain to me in small words how

a) that e-1 post makes a {Pooky, bugspray} team less likley, particulary if, as bugspray says, it's something they do basically every game then its NAI at best, given they would need to do so as either alignment else risk it being commented on

and b) if it is an actual anti-assocative, why that can be considered to overide all the other assocatives between bugspray and Three/Pooky - namely:

1. the timing of 113, just as three (which we now know to be a scum PR) starts picking up votes.
2. the fact that this is only engagement between the two slots pre-replacement, and that post-replacement, there is no engagment between Pooky/bugspray until the flip, excluding the bugspray onto Pooky vote with obvshit justification at 392
   
3. zero progression between that "three town" post and that vote, particulary notable when Pookies ISO up to that point is purely them pushing the same scumread bugspray was
   
4. the fact both slots were pushing the same slot(s), almost exclusivley apart from some early side-eyes from Pav, a slot that we now know is very likley to have been a mislim

because honestly, I don't see how it does. At all.

However, I am townreading STD, and they have been proven to have been right on the money with respect to the three slot early game, I have to accept I might be missing something here. Let's talk.

[Val89]

It occurred to me after Pavs "I'll hammer so we stop talking about bugspray..actually no" post yesterday, that if I am wrong, and it's a town!bugspray, then the best play for scum is actually to keep them alive as long as possible.

I can also see, if StD is wrong (and to be clear, it's an opinion I share) and it's not bugspray, nor Pav, I can see scum motivation for not wanting scummy slots to claim, with a 2-shot rolecop with a single slot left in the game, if said scum was a PR. I'm not seeing any possible town reason for that at this stage of the game. Anyone help me out?

I'll go on record here and say I am not interested in voting MegA.

[Val89]

I am, in fact, a PR, and one with a clear on MegA last night (I think), so we should be in a good place today once we figure out what happened N1. I am curious as to why MegA specifically wants me to claim, unless they got a result on me N1 and know I am a PR, but they are killed by that kill, since I had them in jail.

I am a JOAT. My crumb is in post 218, the first letter of every word following the comma in each sentence.

The rest of my reads,

j

ust in case.

I'm townreading Essoa as I said previously,

o

verall this is my strongest read. I'm also townleaning Meg and Prism,

a

nd I would call Three a townlean independantly of the issue I have with the timing of bugspray's "can I interest you elsewhere" post but because of it, on a scum!bugspray flip, as I expect, I would be looking there more closely, as I would STD.

Dwlee is null currently,

t

here was an initial temptation to consider 119 the laziest chainsaw defense there ever was; but I can see a possible town motivation for it if they were waiting to see who bites. Not much else going on with that slot.

STD scumlean, Pav and bugspray scum.

It was the fact I was a JOAT is what gave rise to my suspicions about both StDs and Pavs claim (and why those reads in that readlist above are as they were), and part of the reason I thought there was potentially 3 scum because of the over-abundance of power roles, albeit all ones that appear to be limited shots, in this game. I fully suspect, and I think Pavs death indicates this, alongside the balance considerations, that the remaining scum (and it's confirmed as 2 now, correct?) has to be a PR as well. I was suprised to see Pooky flip as a mafia JK since I had a one-shot JK ability but I suspect that was to add some confusion as to what was being done by scum, and what was being done by town roles, which makes the fact I had a checker ability make a little more sense than it did right at the start.

I tried to get a cop on Dwlee N1, but got no result. My initial suspicion was that scum had found my crumb, and suspected StD had Rb'd me. The early claim they RB'd Esooa convinced me that StD was legit and pushed me more into suspecting Pav over StD, but while the concensus was for 2 scum (and I was unable to challenge that without claiming myself, which I thought would be a mistake) I thought 3 was still possible, and bugspray had to be one of those whomever they were partnered with. After that hammer without a claim though, I did consider JKing Pav last night, but I decided last minitue I couldn't risk stopping him from using his ability if he was legit (and it looks like that was a good call), I wasn't sure what value the checker shot would be on anyone, and decided to try instead to use my JK slot to get a clear on the most contenious slot (also looking like a good call, since I did).

I think figuring out why I got no result N1 is going to solve this game. If the confirmation of Esooa as vanilia stands up (and by that, I mean if I was right to townlock StD and they haven't lied about RBing Esooa and actually RB'd me N1) then I think that is as good as a cop mech-clear, because the remaining scum (and it is only one, else game would be over, right?) HAS to be a PR with 4 town PRs, limited in power or not, running around. Meg is clear, since Pav died.

That leaves two slots, and we can afford one mis-lim today. GG. Mods were right about this one being swingy, but it looks like its swung in our favour.

[Val89]

Val you jailkept me last night, correct?

Correct.

but they are killed by that kill, since I had them in jail.

That was supposed to say "cleared by that kill".

I am making the assumption there is no possible way MegA could be scum who made the Pav kill while I had them in a cell, but I am 99% sure I am correct in that assumption. The 1% is the only reason for the parenthesis in that last post.

[Val89]

No, that doesn't work. You are claiming a result while I jailkept you?

[Val89]

If I was stopped you aren't cleared at all, then.

I do have to ask myself why you would make such a claim after I cleared you if you were scum, however, so I guess you can still be town for that.

What about N1, then? Your theory is StD roleblocks me twice, fine - maybe scum spotted the crumb and knew they had to keep me locked down, I can buy that. Why claim a clear on Esooa? StDs came before Pavs, remember...

[Val89]

If it matters, my N1 'result' was that I got no result, but that my cop shot had been used and I would not be able to use it again this game.

Perhaps that means something to someone else, I'm not familar enough with JOAT mechanics (this game is the first time I've seen the role, never mind played it) to understand if using the shot up indicates something specific about whether I was blocked or not.

[Val89]

If I was scum wouldn't I just claim bodyguard and win?

If you were scum, you could have claimed anything with no result and won. I was working on the assumption that you had been tucked up safely and couldn't have murdered Pav since I wasn't told otherwise.

Std needed to claim someone as a target, so why not Esooa?

Why not claim the truth? Or even better, if they had figured the crumb, why not kill me before Pav? Pav probably would have been up for a potential mislim today.

Either way, I think StD needs to chime in here and shed some light.

Pedit: No, I don't want to rush this. We have ONE mis-lim in hand, and if StD is town, their info could be vital in sorting out what's what here. Let's not risk them taking it to the grave with them now if there is going to be a tomorrow.

[Val89]

Or even better, if they had figured the crumb, why not kill me before Pav?

Or more to the point, over Prism.

[Val89]

Alright, that does make some sense, although I still wonder why not RB me and kill Pav or vice versa N1.

In any case, I would like to hear from everyone before we consider yeeting anyone today, however much it feels like it ends the game. I was something like 85% sure it was going to be over when we flipped bugspray, and look how that turned out.

pedit: OK. Someone is telling porkie pies somewhere, then.

[Val89]

Ninja explains MegA's N2 result on Dwlee, if that is legit, but not my lack-of, correct?

[Val89]

When you spell it out like that, it is even more clear whatever role the remaining scum has, it has to be extremely powerful. If we are theorising a ninja Dwlee, that would make it 3/3 with 2xVT.

I wonder if Dwlee decodes the crumb and still pushes me as scum D1, knowing I'm claiming at E-1 and it's not going likley going to happen. That doesn't see very likley, and they have gotten very lucky otherwise.

[Val89]

Then why target me N1?

[Val89]

The last normal game I played had asetic backups, which would explain my N1 result, without needing to target me, but not yours. It was a definitive "did not visit", correct?

[Val89]

All the claims confuse me because I hate mech

Yeah, with the conclusion you come to, it shows.

Why does wolf Pooky do what they did? Get in an argument with Val, make them their top scum read, do all this, before dying? Are they just here to spew townies clear?

Personally, I think they were expecting to win that little 1v1 and get me mislimed. My logical, methological style of play always seems to be the target of the memers and social-more-than-deduction players, and my (admitedly limited) experiance out side the newbie queue would suggest I usually come worse off in the exchange amongst the mafiascum regulars. I don't understand it, but I almost expect it at this point.

@STD: Why

did

you chose to target Esooa N1?

[Val89]

My only issue with 851 is that I know I'm not scum, and StD, whilst mafia RBer, or a backup accounts for the results, they effectively say "it isn't me, just trust me bro". I'm not betting the game on that.

The pool as far as I am concerned is {Val, StD, MegA}. I think it's fairly obviously it isn't me, but I also understand it is difficult to correctly judge how your own play looks when you know your own motivations in a way that isn't available to others. If there is some spicy mech business that means it's either Dwlee or Esooa; I think it sucks, but it's gg, and I'll accept the loss gracefully; I don't think I am ever getting there.

If there is something in the mechs that clears, or even makes one of those significantly less likely, then it's time to hear it. A two slot pool is gamewinning, but I'm not buying StDs removal from it on trust.

[Val89]

The above is correct.

[Val89]

Apologises. Bad timing, I am aware, but I need a day or two.

[Val89]

I would suggest actually reading the game, Esooa, because if you are wrong - and I am leaning much more towards StD on the basis of the two claims alone - I just know you are the one who is going to casting the deciding vote of this game.

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

[Val89]

If the question is "Why won't I be the one casting the deciding vote", Dwlee;

What even happened to my brain that I went from pushing val D1 to thinking they were townie now?

I would actually kill Val

I see that, and I know exactly who I would be taking into an ELO in StDs shoes, here.

Maybe I am wrong, but I come back, and the first thing I see is an indication of the very real posibility I might have wasted near 4 weeks; I don't mind losing games, but if it's going to happen I would rather do so because we've been outplayed, not through apathy. If I am being unkind, and some thought

has

gone into this game, I appologise; but that isn't the sense I am getting.

[Val89]

There has been some clever scumplay afoot here, regardless. I feel like I good spend the next few days pouring over the wiki, trying to find a way that scum!Dwlee or scum!Esooa fits the results we have, but even if there is one (and more experianced minds than mine haven't indicated there is) I think occams razor would apply in anycase.

As such, I have to weigh up which of the two scenarios is more likley.

a) MegA, being the last slot to claim, having seen my claim and how it clears them; claims novice tracker, with a result whilst they were in jail, thereby clearing Dwlee and putting themselves back under suspicion. Having done so, and the only reason I can see they would do that is if the game plan was to throw doubt on my claim and have me mislimmed, which seems a stupid plan when the alternative is to just claim no result and ride my clear to the win, they then

don't

push me. While I can see how to push me know would probably give the game away on my flip, I can't see the scum utility of even going down this route, unless it is some WIFOM of the highest order, but one that was entirely unnessacary under the circumstances.

b) StDs fake claimed 1-shot RBer with a mafia JK as partner, and the whole three/std interactions were distancing.

Of the two, I have to say I find B much more likley, as convincing as that partner play was. 1 shot RBer seems a decent D1 fake-claim with a JK in the game, particulary if, as there must me, backups or the like are in play.

[Val89]

It's a question I've been asking myself since Meg claimed a result. Meg says noone was decoding my crumb, but I'm not so sure myself; but even if they had, I don't see why Prism ever came under consideration N1 - Pav dying over me suggests they thought Pav was a threat, but then just block me, kill Pav; or vice versa.

I don't understand it, but I know my role and I've confirmed my results are legit; so, unless I'm going to seriously entertain the possibility that the normals of 5-8 years ago are SO out of line with the normals of today that one of you or Esooa could still be scum here - and I'm not, then I come to conclusion that one of those two scenarios are where we are, and I think StD is much more likley, by far.

It hadn't occured to me that me pushing StD would be a path to victory for scum!me, but I take your word for it, and I can't allow that to disaude me anyway. If it is how it is, and I am going to come under serious consideration as the final scum, I would rather you said nothing more, but voted me today with the implict promise coming with that vote that you (and hopefully Esooa) will at least take a good long look at StD overnight.

[Val89]

Yeah, essentially everything you've just said while I was typing up that answer.

Something hinky is going on, but to my mind, that hinkyness has to be oscar winning scum theatre in StD/three, and a fairly safe fake claim (obviously scum did have some RBing power) than Meg essentially saying "thanks but no thanks" to a free win.

Pedit: No, I can't explain the N1 kill, and that's why I've thought decoding what happened N1 is key to this game, but at this point, everything that was going to come out has come out. Anyone holding anything back at this point is handing scum the win, and they have to know that, surely.

[Val89]

OK, well my whole thinking about why it's StD revolves around that conclusion. Talk to me about it:

"Val you jailkept me last night, correct?
That would explain a lot"

"Correct"

"OK, that will be why I got no result then. I am novice <Whatever>"

"So, as I was saying before, MegA is cleared by the fact I , Essoa is the only other clear because I got no result to my cop check Dwlee N1; maybe Dwlee is asetic, maybe StD actually RBed me n1 and is lying, let's flip both of them and solve this game, gg"

There wasn't ever going to be circumstances I knew I was blocked and I didn't actually have a clear on Meg, and I accept that as actually having happened, unless (and only when) Meg tells me as such - as they did; Meg must have done the blocking, or have some other power that means my JK was ineffective and would have known they had an out the second I said I had JK'd them.

Even if someone points out "you could have been blocked", was there a risk we go for Meg? Even if someone decides I am falsely clearing Meg, then that makes me scum, and then my flip essentially reinforces MegA being 'cleared'; I don't see a world MegA gets flipped after that conversation. Maybe I do, followed by you or StD, or vice versa, but not Meg. Why doesn't Meg accept the clear when I can't see a way we would have had time to deduce it was inaccurate without the information they themselves provided?

What am I missing?

[Val89]

And I would have said "hmm; that's a that awful lot of co-incidences to explain why Meg is scum rather than you; vote: Dwlee". And if I had gotten what I wanted, you would have flipped town, and Meg would have a fairly obvious push in "Val has led two mislims now!". My checker shot isn't going to do anything the night before ELO.

Remember, the second effort of Megs claim was not only to unclear themselves, but to clear you. I had serious doubts on your slot myself until that point.

[Val89]

Maybe I am making building a logical bridge too far in assuming Meg would have realised accepting my 'clear' would almost guarantee a win, even knowing I would likley have never voted Meg following that and gone to my own death defending them, I accept it's possible it wasn't mmeadately obvious to others as I think it is.

I mean, I also accept that if I am wrong about StD then it is Meg, but if you are asking me to endorse the lim of my second, by orders of magnitude, second choice and thereby setting myself up as the game winning mislim to my first scumread, I'm here to tell you that I won't.

The only game I've actually cared about losing is one in which I was the ELO mislim, after sussing the correct scum D1 and then dropping that read D2 after I thought other players were scummier, because I think I was probably a big reason why that game was lost. I'm not keen to repeat that exact trajectory here, thanks.

[Val89]

"lol".

I've never wanted to be proven wrong as much as do right now. What a roller-coaster.

[Val89]

I want to say that there is no hard feelings, and I understand you are just playing to wincon; but it's hard not to dislike you right now.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[Val89]

JOAT, with 1-shot each of (Checker, Cop, Jailkeeper)

N1 - Cop Dwlee - No result.

I softed my intention to do so on D1:

I don't really want to do Dwlee today. I'm certainly not townreading there, but out of all the slots on my radar, that's the one where I can see potential for town who just isn't engaging, and, particulary as it seems Esooa's last posting seemed to suggest she was advocating for some sort of policy lim rather than being sure they were scum, it's a slot I would want to leave for now.

I am confident the mystery of their alignment isn't going to remain hazy forever.

N2 - Jailkeep MegA

I didn't receive a result indicating as such, but this obviously failed as well as Meg claims a result on Dwlee.

N3- Check StD

My action failed, getting no result.

[Val89]

I will admit your role and meg's appear designed for the same setup

I am not experianced enough to deduce why this is true, this is my first time running into "Novice" roles as well, but it will be interesting to see how StD explains how I was 'clever trying to crumb a role I don't have', when that role also happened to fit into the same setup as MegA's claim, before MegA ever claimed.

[Val89]

If the question is "Why won't I be the one casting the deciding vote", Dwlee;

In post 952, Esooa wrote:
I would actually kill Val

I see that, and I know exactly who I would be taking into an ELO in StDs shoes, here.

Dwlee99 was a Vanilla Townie

That. It was that.

I understand that was always the kill, but still.

[Val89]

I don't really know why wolves would have a roleblocker as well as a jailkeeper for their two PR's with no village KP, as that just seems like functionally have 2 separate role blockers. That's my biggest hangup with the existence of Val's claim

That assumes that the RB claim is legit. We know for a fact at least the "1-shot" part of is fake, because I've been blocked every night.

I think it was a fake claim, made because of the existence of the a mafia JK, and it was made before we knew Pooky was a JK, so it didn't raise too much suspicion at the time. I think StD is a mafia backup, which is why they were happy to both claim early, and have the distancing interactions they do with Three, knowing they inherit the power if it goes wrong and turns into a bus, both things StD said meant they "couldn't" be scum.

You will see from my ISO that I always had suspicions about StDs claim for the fact it seemed odd to exist alongside my role. Then Pav claimed 2-shot rolecop, and I thought the existence of all 3 of us was extremely unlikley. I thought it was more likley that Pav was fake claiming, and had tailored that claim to fit with StD, and so I was more concerned with Pav than I was StD following that claim. That was reflected in my reads.

I think your point would be a good one, if we were looking at a Mafia JK + Mafia 1-shot RBer. But that isn't what we are dealing with, and that is proven by my results. The most likley setup is probably Mafia JK + Mafia backup. There may well be other possibilities, but thats the obvious one that fits with the fake-claim, StDs play, and with my results.

[Val89]

I think they have 2 JKs, just not at the same time - StD was a backup to Pookies. There might be other modifiers in the effect that just haven't come into play, who knows?

I also have a JK shot, and I think the idea was that blocks were supposed to be in abundance; and we wouldn't know when someone was jailkept if that was coming from town or scum (the JK being the one mech where the target could be targetted because they were scummy, as a pseduo-invest, or townie, because it's protection, and so you couldn't draw an inference from the target) - and both town and mafia having access to them.

The combination of Pavs role and my checker/cop shots was supposed to help sort between the two, but we would be under a lot of time pressure to do so - and this perfectly explains everything that was said about this in pre-game: all the roles

are

normal, and the interactions fairly simple, but it's swingy.

[Val89]

I'll refer you to 1002.

StD; obviously I understand are you alledging that I am mafia, but are you claiming that Mafia power is JK + 3 -shot JOAT, then; or that it is JK + me being "anything", but what I claimed (and crumbed D1) just happened to mesh perfectly with MegAs claim, before MegA actually claimed? I think it's fairly obvious you are talking rubbish either way.

Mafia power is JK + Backup (probably). It's something that gives Mafia at 3-shot RB'ing power at least, and backup does that and is pretty common in normals.

Against:
2-shop Role Cop
Novice Tracker
3-Shot JOAT with Cop/Checker/JK.

Like I said before, the fact that both Town and Mafia have access to (although limited to one shot on the town side) Jails, and that town have Role-cop and checker shots to deduce which while giving scum space to move make sense as a setup design; and you have to ask yourself at this point, which makes more sense - we have a setup design that makes sense, that has been confirmed as making sense by someone who has already flipped town, or whatever it is StD is trying to sell with mafia possibily having anything by way of PRs and that somehow still works as a setup.

[Val89]

I don't know, but Dwlee said it does, and Dwlee is confirmed town, so there is no reason to suspect they would say so if it wasn't true. It's part of the game that one of us is lying and thus everything we say is suspect, but there is no reason not to accept the word of confirmed town on matters of if a setup makes sense or not independant of reads.

You don't get points for fake claiming D1 at a time your slot was at E-1, or mistakenly beleived to be E-1, and particulary when that claim happens to work very well as a fake scumclaim with a mafia JK on the board, particulary if your real role is mafia backup.

I do get points for crumbing D1 because the alternative I think you are trying to get at - that I did so as scum, and also happened to fake-crumb a role that fits the setup before we knew what the setup was is...well, pretty out there, to put it mildly.

[Val89]

You didn't half make me work this one.

Thanks for modding, fferyllt and Lukewarm.

[Val89]

I might have missed it, but who did you target N2, Pav?

[Val89]

Would you ever consider running it as Mafia JK + Mafia Backup + Mafia Goon v JOAT + Novice Tracker + 2-shot role op, for funsies?

[Val89]

I didn't think too hard about it. I decided I was going for bugspray, with Pav and Dwlee in reserve on D2, and I thought it would be low info.

[Val89]

That ended up being my intent, in the end, Dwlee.

I initially crumbed JOAT so that I had an excuse to be wary of StDs claim - I as going to claim one of my shots was a roleblock, and could say "Why would town have a one shot RBer when I have a one-shot RB + plus others".

When Pav claimed, I abandoned it and thought I would just claim VT when it came to it, but I was a little concerned about being found Asetic. When Meg was all "I want Val to claim", I thought that was the issue - they had targeted me. I assumed had to go big or go home and claimed a JK shot, expecting Meg to say "OK, that's why I go no result on you then".

I don't remember where I saw the checker, I was just browsing the wiki trying to find 1-shots that might make sense. I thought it could work with the claimed roles, and would add to the "Val doesn't come up with this on his own" vibe I was aiming for.

I knew there was a big chance of it ending badly for us, but decided it was worth the risk. There wasn't a point I decided it was a good idea to throw Pooky under the bus D1 either, it just...happened organically while trying to replicate my town game. I was so tempted to jump off them and on to bugspray when it as floated as an idea close to deadline, but I was confident town would figure out what had happened if one or the other of us flipped in future, and couldn't find a good way to get off in time.