Let's Discuss the Hyperpost Meta

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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:50 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

As a mod I would be curious about giving players a set amount of posts for the entire game and then having them figure out how to space those posts throughout the game. (I actually think it would be relatively easy to set this to something reasonable and also guarentee that the maximimum length of the game in terms of total posts would generally not exceed a general amount.)
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:45 pm

Post by RH9 »

In post 73, TemporalLich wrote:I like hyperposting as it lets me thoughtstream instead of having a refined wall
Oh! That's definitely true.
I tend to find that most walls that I read feel unnatural and less genuine. While when people do a thoughtstream in one-liners, I tend to feel better about them.
Which I have to admit is unfair against wallposters.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:08 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

In post 75, Zachrulez wrote:As a mod I would be curious about giving players a set amount of posts for the entire game and then having them figure out how to space those posts throughout the game. (I actually think it would be relatively easy to set this to something reasonable and also guarentee that the maximimum length of the game in terms of total posts would generally not exceed a general amount.)
This is highly liable to create situations where players burn through their posts and don't have posts which while their fault ostensibly is also not very healthy for game health. Posts being trust funded out for the players own benefit is definitely the right way to go.



I'd like to reiterate the implied question of my previous post: when the 2017 version of this discussion came about it was pretty similar to this with mostly everyone (who actually posts in the thread) agreeing it's some sort of a problem, discussing solutions, and then there was games run with the ruleset, and then they all in the nicest terms possible fell flat. There are fewer players now than there were then to make a pocket community within the community for such games. I don't have any personal investment one way or the other because i don't play mafia and that's not subject to change, and this isn't an attempt to sway hearts and minds to one side or the other. My question is what exactly do you plan to do to make this change actually happen, because just repeating something that failed in the past when the reasons it failed are still applicable now defeats the purpose of having a past to learn from.

Also i sound like Reckoner now dear god funny how that happened
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:05 am

Post by Something_Smart »

We just had a geriatric game finish and it seemed like it was received pretty well. I'm sure there would be an audience for a geriatric-like game with more lenient restrictions.
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:14 am

Post by MathBlade »

In post 78, Something_Smart wrote:We just had a geriatric game finish and it seemed like it was received pretty well. I'm sure there would be an audience for a geriatric-like game with more lenient restrictions.
I would in on that.
Geriatric I think is a bit too strict but a middle ground would help me I think not be so bad.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:21 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Ok so the post restricted games need to be significantly more lenient and more generally accessible by players without them explicitly being geriatric style players, that's a helpful start. What's a good number of per day posts per person then? 200 day 1, 100 following days? That gates the extremes but is not generally intrusive for most players, is that enough of a reduction to give space to the people who can't handle hyper posting?
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:24 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Collective caps btw create an extreme strategic power that doesn't typically exist where increasing your post count simultaneously increases your thread presence and collectively decrease everyone else's and that also applies to things like two players thunderdoming increasing that weight in the thread and probably rewards people for monopolizing thread presence in a way that does the opposite of fix the problem.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:27 am

Post by Something_Smart »

The best way to figure that out has got to be to experiment. I might want to start with something like 80-100. Ideally, people are not deliberately coming super close to the post limit; if they are, that's a sign that it needs to be reduced, so those people can get the message that they shouldn't be joining these kinds of games.

Pedit: agree 100%.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:28 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Like you can say oh you should collectively punish people for taking up thread presence in case it is a scum stratagem but in most cases the people who will get away with doing it will get away with it as town or scum because it's something that they are known to do.

How many posts per day per person is enough for the 60th, 70th, 80th percentile poster and how many is too many for the people who can't handle the current meta and who would actually participate in such games
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:38 am

Post by DkKoba »

In post 81, RadiantCowbells wrote:Collective caps btw create an extreme strategic power that doesn't typically exist where increasing your post count simultaneously increases your thread presence and collectively decrease everyone else's and that also applies to things like two players thunderdoming increasing that weight in the thread and probably rewards people for monopolizing thread presence in a way that does the opposite of fix the problem.
Can confirm andante and i did this in a game peta modded on epicmafia. We did anything to reach global post cap
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:38 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Also a mechanic that i think would be helpful is to have player voted extensions on specific days

If a majority of players agree on a day that is specifically very active and productive players can be given additional posts while not giving players license to go beyond their standard post cap on days where they're the only people close to their post cap, and you can probably give day 1 at least one automatic extension by default because of how much of games tends to be played on day 1. This does create situations where in standard play a hyper poster could try to bully the game into extending just for then but in an explicitly post restricted game that coming up and actually happening likely signals a problem with the player list in such a game moreso than the mechanic itself. (If you tried to mass institute gates on post count in games that aren't explicitly post restricted, that would be the end result of it.)
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:41 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

I actually think it is explicitly unhealthy to ever be in a situation where scum are using post limits as a weapon against town. That's not the game, so I'm fine with the fact that that does potentially put scum in the awkward position of having to either extend or vote against extension when it's clearly in towns interest. I feel the same way about deadline extensions in that i feel like deadlines should not actually be weaponizable by either alignment and I know that that's an unpopular view so the former view may also be unpopular.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:05 pm

Post by Zachrulez »

In post 77, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 75, Zachrulez wrote:As a mod I would be curious about giving players a set amount of posts for the entire game and then having them figure out how to space those posts throughout the game. (I actually think it would be relatively easy to set this to something reasonable and also guarentee that the maximimum length of the game in terms of total posts would generally not exceed a general amount.)
This is highly liable to create situations where players burn through their posts and don't have posts which while their fault ostensibly is also not very healthy for game health. Posts being trust funded out for the players own benefit is definitely the right way to go.



I'd like to reiterate the implied question of my previous post: when the 2017 version of this discussion came about it was pretty similar to this with mostly everyone (who actually posts in the thread) agreeing it's some sort of a problem, discussing solutions, and then there was games run with the ruleset, and then they all in the nicest terms possible fell flat. There are fewer players now than there were then to make a pocket community within the community for such games. I don't have any personal investment one way or the other because i don't play mafia and that's not subject to change, and this isn't an attempt to sway hearts and minds to one side or the other. My question is what exactly do you plan to do to make this change actually happen, because just repeating something that failed in the past when the reasons it failed are still applicable now defeats the purpose of having a past to learn from.

Also i sound like Reckoner now dear god funny how that happened
I've actually run a game on the opposite end of the spectrum that was intended to be played with hyperfast posting. Dunno if that makes you feel any better about the fact that I don't intend to take something on the other end of the spectrum on without putting a good amount of thought into it first?

The game I ran was intended to offer players an alternative to what was at the time a much slower meta and allow them to play a game that burned faster but required less of a time committment. I don't just voice interest in running a content limited game just out of a hate for hyperposting but because I think it is possible to offer an alternative to that meta and I definitely think it's something that can be done and accomplished. I enjoy offering games that are counter to what is generally on offer. It's easy to offer more of the same really but you don't really get to try new things that way.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:35 am

Post by mastina »

For the record: I am fairly certain that I do not qualify as a hyperposter.

In basically every single game I play, I end up middle of the road posting-wise. I can, situationally, be like the top five (in, say, a mini), but usually, I am neither in the top of the posters nor in the bottom of the posters.

...But rules against hyperposting would still be punitive to me, in spite of me most definitively not being one.

Why?

...Because while I do not post 200 times in a day phase, what I
do
do is have bursts of posts, then long periods of no posts.

I can go 1-3 days without posting, but then post 5-10 times when I do post. This leads to an overall average of ~3 posts per day, which in the current meta, I feel we can agree is not egregiously high. ~3 posts per day means that in a one-month-long game (this is about the length of a mini btw), I post a grand total of ~90 times. Even in a longer game that lasts 3 months (this is about the length of many larges btw), that doesn't come out to an absurdly high amount as it ends up being ~250 when you math that out.

Now, circa 2009 or so, ~3 posts per day
might
qualify you as a hyperposter, but even as early as 2010, it would not. Over the years that has gone from a lot of posting, to about the average number of posts, to now actually being fairly
low
in posts.

But I digress.

My point is, while my average for posts is on the lower end, the distribution of them is not consistent; the distribution of them is incredibly uneven.

I deliberately tend to try and post at times that I know nobody else is around--because it reduces the workload I have. It reduces the amount of back-and-forth to be had. It allows me to catch up in peace, get caught up, and then leave, without a need to continue engaging. (After all, if nobody else is posting, I don't need to keep posting, I don't need to keep checking the thread, I don't need to invest even more time.)

This not only reduces the number of posts that I make, but also reduces the number of posts people make in response to me.

If I am online at the same time as someone else in my game, I might make 5 posts and then they make 5 posts in response to me which may warrant 3 further posts from me and then 2 more posts from them and then me another post and so on and so forth until I run out of time/energy/things to say.

...But if I am online at a time nobody else is online, I might make 5 posts, and then that person who would've made 5 posts if online at the same time as me? Instead only makes
one
. Which in turn means I only need
one
post to address them, rather than 3-5.

However, there is a side-effect of me posting during times nobody else is around: it means I make multiple posts in a row. And it is
this
that would make me run afoul of most attempts to restrict hyperposters.

I might only post an average of 3 times a day, but if I am posting zero times on 2-3 days of the week, that's like 5-10 posts on the 4-5 days I
do
post.

And yet this style of posting actually results in a
lower
post count than a hyperposter gets. I deliberately developed a style that minimized the amount of posts that I need to make.

There's a lot of logic behind my decisions.
If I first read offline (and thus, do not post during that time on instinct), it allows me to formulate a 'rough draft' of what I will say when I log on. This rough draft is never absolute/perfect/complete, as I typically log in to create my post without being
fully
up to date. (If there are ten new pages, on average, I'll have read only the first 8 of them, to give an idea.)

If I give myself some down time, it can lead to more informed, precise, so-to-speak 'surgical' posts. I have a greater ability to focus in on what is important to reply to.

The looming threat of a prod forces me to post content, which allows me to generate content from places I may otherwise have missed. Because I read offline, I see what has been posted, and if I can't find anything to post, I don't log on to post at all if I can get away with it. But when I need to avoid a prod, suddenly, I have a need to generate content, so I find content that I otherwise would have missed if I was constantly posting the entire time.

Having down time allows me to mentally rest/recover. I
generally
read offline, but I am under no obligation to, and have the luxury of not needing to read offline. But, reading offline without posting is still less stressful than reading online while posting.

Engaging in fewer protracted back and forths saves me time and energy I otherwise would have wasted on said back and forths.

And critically, what this style also does, is it gives the game time to have voices that are
not
my own contributing during that down time. Having my presence dominate the entire time can be detrimental regardless of my alignment. Letting others speak can give others the tools to react to each other. Letting others speak lets them generate their own content with breathing room. It increases the ability for them to see each others' posts, digest them, understand them, take them into account, etc., allowing them to formulate stronger, more solid opinions on each other.

And then, when I post, my own voice is
also
more clear.

If I am posting at the same time everyone else is posting, how do my posts stand out compared to anyone else's? They wouldn't, they'd blend in and get lost in the noise. But if I am posting at a unique time that nobody else is posting, then, suddenly, my posts are much much harder to miss, much harder to ignore, because they stick out thanks to not being mixed with the posts of others. Which, in turn, allows people to have my voice be louder and stronger than it would be if I posted in the mess of others.

Staying out of the spotlight, but then strategically stepping back into the spotlight when there is a need to, gives strong advantages as either alignment. Staying out of the limelight as scum allows for the town to eat itself alive and come out with clean hands by and large, and then when needed I can enter into the spotlight to direct things in the direction I need them to go as scum. Staying out of the limelight as town allows me to clear my mind, focus, and reflect, giving stronger, better thoughts when I decide to take center stage.

Imo, this approach is pretty successful. People tend to say they skip my posts, but the fact of the matter is, they actually tend to read them more than they admit/realize and what I say in them tends to overall stick with people more often than not. (Granted, people have goldfish memory these days it seems. But it is actually easier to
remind
people of a post you've made when you have
less
posts. If you have 500 posts, reminding someone of a post you have made is difficult because YOU can have trouble tracking it down, so if it's difficult for YOU, how do THEY stand a chance? But if you have 100 posts, reminding someone of a post you have made is quite easy!)

There's one more benefit to this approach, too: I am able to combine what would be separate posts if I was posting continuously, into a single post. There's obviously a balancing act: nobody reads long wallposts, but I don't want every single time I quote a post to be a new post. So what I end up doing is usually doing ~2-3 quoted posts in a single post of mine. (It also works out to be approximately one post of mine per page I have to catch up on. Sometimes slightly more, often a bit less. If there's 20 pages, I'll probably end up with ~10-15 posts; if there's 2 pages, I'll probably end up with ~3-4.)

This results in each post being of a readable length, which again, helps increase the rate at which my posts are actually perceived. If my posts are too long, they are ignored; if I am posting every single time I quote one post, my posts are ignored because I'm making too many posts in a row; if I make posts that are a readable length but I am making a smaller quantity of posts, then they suddenly have a much higher readability. (And to this effect, I often try to group related concepts as to cut down on clutter. If I am jumping from point A to point B to point C back to point A then C then B, due to posts 60, 80, 120, 125, 128, 150 being ABCACB, then it's a mess. If I regroup it to be all-A, then all-B, then all-C, suddenly there is structure/order to my post.)

People tend to shit on my posts for various reason. I am not succinct. I am verbose. I say in 20 words what could be said in 5. But for all the flaws in my efficiency, the thing about it is, I developed this style because it
works
. Ever since I have done this "on again, off again" style of posting where I alternate between posting and not posting, and balance my posts' lengths to not be too long but not be too numerous? In spite of how wordy I am, in spite of my verbosity, in spite of how bad I am at explaining myself? It's still much much much easier to follow along with my thought process than it was before I developed this approach.

But this approach is still burst-activity. High bursts of activity, then lulls, followed by more high bursts, then more lulls. Punishing that style would be counterproductive to what folks wanting to cut down on overall posts in a game wish to achieve.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:30 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

one thing I will say is that even though it took me some time to adjust to the hyperposting meta, I will say that I found the really old metas of having potentially over a dozen walls per page was significantly more difficult for me to even want to read through, much less actually read through and get anything significant from it

having these back and forths that happen in the game aren't actually a bad thing (and it makes them much less likely to get drowned out than if everyone was making only wallposts), which makes me think that player caps really aren't that great of an idea; the issue is more that they run into the problem of rapid firing so many times that they often run into the same arguments or start going into discussions that are completely meaningless

the issue I've mostly seen in games is that there is a threshold of information to noise where going too far below (dominantly dense walls) or too far above (insane hyperposting) just results in people getting disengaged with the game

I've tried to fix this by specifically aiming to get people invested in the game when they aren't engaged, but that by itself hasn't really worked. I honestly don't know how to fix this problem, but I really don't think addressing hyperposting directly is ever going to accomplish this in any way that would make better quality games

in fact, my general problem with the site meta nowadays is that people aren't posting enough; I've had two games that you could count as hyperposty, and 4-5 that were either borderline dead or just standard
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sun Feb 27, 2022 4:31 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

one thing I will say is that even though it took me some time to adjust to the hyperposting meta, I will say that I found the really old metas of having potentially over a dozen walls per page was significantly more difficult for me to even want to read through, much less actually read through and get anything significant from it

having these back and forths that happen in the game aren't actually a bad thing (and it makes them much less likely to get drowned out than if everyone was making only wallposts), which makes me think that player caps really aren't that great of an idea; the issue is more that they run into the problem of rapid firing so many times that they often run into the same arguments or start going into discussions that are completely meaningless

the issue I've mostly seen in games is that there is a threshold of information to noise where going too far below (dominantly dense walls) or too far above (insane hyperposting) just results in people getting disengaged with the game

I've tried to fix this by specifically aiming to get people invested in the game when they aren't engaged, but that by itself hasn't really worked. I honestly don't know how to fix this problem, but I really don't think addressing hyperposting directly is ever going to accomplish this in any way that would make better quality games

in fact, my general problem with the site meta nowadays is that people aren't posting enough; I've had two games that you could count as hyperposty, and 4-5 that were either borderline dead or just standard
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:57 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 90, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:in fact, my general problem with the site meta nowadays is that people aren't posting enough
same kinda. but that might be more the site being half-dead than players just not playing. Although lurking is a viable scum strat and town may do it to mimmick their scumplay.

I intend to read this in full so some of these might have been said or something

more killing roles. I think at one point I even suggested a "lurker only vig" So kills can be done only on players with less than X number of posts. or executioner roles.

shorter deadlines. Like 4 or 5 days. I could see a big problem as this might not be enough time for busier people. I lowkey feel like procrastinate and nothing gets done near deadline and the sooner deadline comes the sooner ppl will get off their asses and do things.

Stricter penalties for flaking and hardly playing?
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edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:39 am

Post by Alyssa The Lamb »

Oh I should probably mention too

Any solution to curb hyperposting will fail if it doesn't also force a minimum level of engagement higher than once every 3 days imo
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:57 am

Post by Nero Cain »

most prod timers are 48/24, and I've seen 36/24 but I agree with you.
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edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Wed Mar 02, 2022 9:38 am

Post by Shirou »

Feels like a good idea to have a ruleset for people that want less spammy games, but Koba initially said like as if we should implement this as a "standard" for the Newbie/Normal queues and perhaps others, and I just...disagree on that?

I think everyone should try to play the game like they want to and although I do agree it's really time consuming when a game has too many posts (often due to multiple hyperposters), I think a good portion of the players aren't only "hyperposting", but also enjoying it to some extent maybe?

Even though I'm a hyperposter, I could see myself playing a more lenient "geriatric rule set" game, but I would be troubled if it became a "standard" sitewise?

I feel like, most of the games that were really memorable to me and players on it, often had at least for a portion of the days, really spammy/hyperposting moments.

In mafia games, there's days where people barely post and nights where the entire playerlist is going back and forth. Those post restrictions would make the games easier to follow/read perhaps, but it would also take away some of the spontaneity in mafia games, and off the top of my mind I really can't remember a single memorable game that didn't have some very heated moments where the daily or general amount of posts suddenly exploded.

There's always a sacrifice of opportunities when you set limits.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:25 am

Post by Meuh »

I like making walls and longer posts in general, it’s some of the most fun I have playing, but it doesn’t tend to feel rewarding so I’m not sure if I should bother a lot of the time, the meta doesn’t reward it. :cry:

I could spend half as much time and half as much energy making several small posts over a few hours and people will read and respond to it twice as much, if I make a wall it won’t get nearly as much engagement

Plus shouting “X is scum!” in 10 separate posts will usually convince more people than making an in depth analysis in a single post.

I think the meta shift could come from a bunch of different reasons like phone-posting, I think some people also play mafia on Discord (or generally use Discord) and the posting patterns carry over from there, I’m guilty of it

I’m not sure about restrictions, but I think they could be employed in newbie games. My first game here ever, an SE replaced in and just hyperposted and talked with another SE, half of it off-topic. Some sort of rule to make sure newbies are actually having their fair share of the discussion isn’t something I hate. :cool:

Plus when engaging with hyperposting, you’ll often have to quote several posts, which people like to do — you guessed it — in several posts; so the problem accentuates itself in that way
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:47 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I have to say I’m in agreement with the people opposing this. Posting caps really mess with my play. One viable solution might be to make it mandatory to put multiquote posts into [ spoiler
=
] [/ spoiler] tags. Or perhaps any wallposts in general?

But for someone already struggling with dyslexia and ADHD, post caps only make this more difficult for me.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2022 4:52 am

Post by syugar »

I will not post less. Others should post MORE!
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2022 1:31 pm

Post by Lukewarm »

Speaking as someone who can definitly get on the hyper posting side of a game, I think that generous posting limits are a net positive for a game. I have so far been in three games with posting limits, and I think each of the games were better for it.

FGO II set a global limit of like 45 pages per day

Pooky's Spring Fling had a limit of 200 posts each per day

ffery's Shakespere uPick took the opposite approach, where instead of setting a hard limit, it instead gave out a reward
In post 5, fferyllt wrote:
Thou hast an opportunity to earn one extra
gold coin
today. Be ye terse and it shall be thine. All in the Troupe who make fewer than 150 posts this game day shall earn it.
In each of these games, the limits never really felt oppressive (no one even got close to the limits for shakespere or spring fling. FGO was definitly something that we were all continually aware of, but even then it felt like we were still able to have solid discussions). Even with the more generous 200 posts in pookys game, when no one got even close to the limits, it felt like it just made people more purposeful with their posting. That is something that I quite liked.
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