Micro 1053: DmangwGBiaf [game over]

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Koba I want long-form Rean case

ok here u go:


Rean is a Greeting alt

This is incorrect. I am not Greeting. I did pull from their vocabulary though.

I do not wish to out myself to correct this however as I have this alt for a reason.

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My result is not on Rean, no. I think we should massclaim anyway. Does anyone object to the order I suggested?

Except I think you’re scum full of shit
Or you’re just being blatantly bad

Me refusing to claim is 100% the right call in that case to force you to go first.

Ari cited a game where I went off the walls trying literally anything that sticks because my main scum left me out to dry.

Here I am calmly, patiently standing up for what I believe in and doing so in a frank forward and honest way.

As scum I have zero qualms about claiming early and have numerous games where I have done so and have used PR spec to my advantage. I love talking mechanics as scum and that’s a blatant misrep.

Here we have no idea what the setup is so scum have to be on their guard.

Instead now that we have PRs claimed rather silly I might add since there’s multiples I am VT.

Happy now?

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Now let’s go through the rigamarole of who agreed with the silliness rather than elim NK15 who hammered Yeet sans claim.

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The only reason I haven’t been as hyper as usual is I have been working a shit ton of OT and IRL.

You disagree with how I play, fine.

I get that, but we just did the wrong play after two mis flips maybe the ones who have been not in charge are town.

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if you are a tpr with an investigative result

you out the result after the mass claim and not before

letting people know you dont have a result on them allows people to get away with lies they wouldn't know they can make

Nah it’s quite possible here Gamma is gambiting and does have a result on me. They’re known to gambit a lot.

I was actually yah know trying to sort people.

But here Ari have your mech spec.

I have no idea if any of the “I am a PR” claims are valid because I can’t hold back anymore.

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gonna dab on the haters with this game i caught the scum team d1

people should give me mailman more often just saying

thanks for modding gg wp guys

Gj
My goal was to be read as pr and i succeeded myself, was not focusing on getting reads unfort lol
Glad i died since i only had 1 scum possibly caught there!

Gg all

I think three innos is a bit much for a normal and micro.

Regardless still well played.

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Well modded too.

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No redactions too

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there were only 2 innos
plus there was a potential to put shade on me that wasn't taken

There were three

TA, NK15, FN

Can’t shade NK15 because have to shade TA saying lying or traitor. Traitor in a micro isn’t possible in a normal unless elo which wasn’t possible

TA can’t shade because unprompted claim
FN is mechanically confirmed due to role

3 innos unassaible

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there were only 2 innos
plus there was a potential to put shade on me that wasn't taken

I couldn’t shade anyone as it was spew.

Ari was locked into my slot.

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Yeah I made a plan with Norwegian since they were TR’d but then RL popped up for them

Thanks for Enchant for doing their best.

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there were only 2 innos
plus there was a potential to put shade on me that wasn't taken

There were three

TA, NK15, FN

Can’t shade NK15 because have to shade TA saying lying or traitor. Traitor in a micro isn’t possible in a normal unless elo which wasn’t possible

TA can’t shade because unprompted claim
FN is mechanically confirmed due to role

3 innos unassaible

3 innos Day 2 (7 players) with 2 scum is 50% EV though. Not impossible. Difficult because you need both town to get yeeted. And getting aristeia conftowned... that was you fighting against massclaim.

I would love to see how you get that calculation. It’s no where near that.

3 clears + 2 scum means 1-2 viable miselims before reads start. That’s easily 80-90% town favored

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im just unsure why kill me even if I was gonna end up being a PR

I was sure StD was a Pr but I was thinking you and Ari could have been masons with unexplained townreads and how some things didn’t make sense. You’ll see when the PT opens up

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Don’t get me wrong, I made mistakes but three innos in a micro is too much.

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Techically Gamma is not inno, that's reason why i overruled innitial attempt to kill Gamma and killed NK15 instead.

But it knew i was going down likely so eh.

Don’t worry about it. It was trying to make lemonade out of lemons. I appreciate you finishing it out. I’ve repped into bad games before and I appreciate you being a great sport and definitely don’t add this to the L column.

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im just unsure why kill me even if I was gonna end up being a PR

I was sure StD was a Pr but I was thinking you and Ari could have been masons with unexplained townreads and how some things didn’t make sense. You’ll see when the PT opens up

;P just trust that I am good enough to townread many people pretty well.

I need to start being more careful with certain people though because this is the second game I let a scum into my top tier townreads in a row

Norwegian was designed to be a top tier read of yours. So don’t feel too bad.

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Don’t get me wrong, I made mistakes but three innos in a micro is too much.

No.
There were not three innos. There were two. Gamma was only an inno because none of you claimed anything but VT. THAT turned gamma into an inno.
And even then - 7p with 3 innos and 2 scum has 50% EV. One of you needed to be townier than all the town that were left though. A task that was failed when you fought against the massclaim.

You made the following errors:
1.You didn't kill an obvious PR in a micro. That's almost always a mistake in a micro when a VT goes down Day 1.
2.You killed a townie whose reads were great - for scum.
3.You misjudged the will of the town and the strength of your arguments when you decided to fight against a massclaim.
Making all of these errors in one game was fatal.

I can’t refute all of this at work but wowza a lot of this to me is wrong.

Being forced to kill a PR on n1 versus influence of gamestare is a sign a setup is bad.

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Scum is made up of two parts.

1 is dayplay 2 is mechanics

Koba was an excellent kill because by dayplay Norwegian boy on me D2 or a town D2 leads to a sweep by Norway.

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Admittedly yes I made mistakes but if you’re forced to kill a PR on N1 and the Pr only posts “I am Swiss cheese and there’s likely two scum”

Then scum not killing that player results in scum losing is bad.

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Admittedly yes I made mistakes but if you’re forced to kill a PR on N1 and the Pr only posts “I am Swiss cheese and there’s likely two scum”

Then scum not killing that player results in scum losing is bad.

In micros, you have to treat every PR as an IC until proven otherwise.
Micros are just not big games. PR's matter. In minis and Larges you can afford to let PR's live. In a Micro, you can not.

And that’s imho a fundamental flaw in the setup design.

If scum kill PRs only then they can’t kill threats or to manipulate and that’s a huge handicap for scum.

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And then town just doesn’t post until D2 and no elims and wins.

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Then micros shouldn’t work like that is my point.

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And then town just doesn’t post until D2 and no elims and wins.

D2 was winnable until you pushed against massclaim the way you did.

If mass claim is protown then the proper play for town is to literally not play D1, scum shoot a VT > rand

Profit and win.

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Like literally don’t play PRs claim opening post of D2 with results or it’s a scum claim.

Then 1-2 PRs claim they become conf due to not having information to CC.

If you’re going to have PRs be breakable like that scum have to be informed or a way to counter

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9 alive, into next day 8 alive.

2 PRs claim open D2 become conf on virtue of claiming. (Assume no results to be friendly)
6 other players remain. 2 scum 4 VTs.
Assume VT dies
PR dies

2 scum 3 VTs 1 PR.

Miselim a VT then NK a PR

2 scum vs 2 VTs is barely a scum win.

So technically possible for scum to win but then they have no thread control and it’s whoever the PRs say is elimmed dies.

So that’s a thing.

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Then add in NK15 which was an inno because traitors don’t exist in micros scum loses if town never plays.

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If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2

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I'd say this is probably more townsided than 2 masons but also more swingy.

You're comparing what happened to a baseline

it's true that

3 conftown + 2 vt vs 2 scum is a lot more townsided than 2 masons + 3 vt vs 2 scum


but we were lucky to get TA investigating someone who didn't get NK'd and wasn't the mailman. [If the TA gets nightkilled we're basically playing 1 conftown PR + 4 VT vs 2 Mafia which is similar balance to if one of two masons gets nightkilled]

also arguably mafia made a mistake by not claiming one of them was a PR - uncontested double PR + invest is not usually what happens.

also mafia can't counterclaim vs masons whereas here they can counterclaim.


mechanically in a closed 9p micro with 2 VT deaths - it always makes sense to mass claim and narrow POE and the scum arguing against this really hurt their dayplay position on D2 for really no gain.

Scum can’t counter claim PR on no info

So it’s lose lose.

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If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2

You overlook something.
1. PR dies Night 1. You lost one lim, are in the evens, and have no info from day 1. Ouch! The chance to find a PR amongst 6 townies is 33% if you kill randomly!
2. You lim a PR. Also, see above. Ouch!
3. You lim a VT, but you have no dayplay info Day 2. If you have just two Masons, for example, then town needs two other obvtown to win. Without much info Day 1.
4. If you no elim or lim a VT you (unless kills get blocked) have only ONE mislim. And 3 VT's. That's still decent.

Pr dies night one on rand 2/7. Less than 30% a little more than a quarter. 75% instant win is always suboptimal.
If you lim anyone D1 you’re not following the way it’s broken so ???

No elim two immediate clears scum can’t cc because has to be first post on D2 literally is what I said and your response ignores it

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I completely agree that there are scenarios in which there are less clears like you pointed out. I also don't think this is townsided to an unreasonable degree. But because there are scenarios like those you mentioned, I think that it makes the setup swingy. 2 masons is 2 masons, whereas TA + FN mailman can be 3, 2, or 1 (or even zero if FN targets the N1 kill) clears.

I don't think swingy is inherently bad for the record, and I also think this setup is pretty balanced, it's just this game I think we saw the swing of the setup completely towards town.

Nah.

Assume std is dead N1

Then still two innos on D2 with > rand 5/8 for inno

Gamma claims post one D2

Then can’t claim or CC anything

Then it’s GG for reasons pointed out before

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If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2

You overlook something.
1. PR dies Night 1. You lost one lim, are in the evens, and have no info from day 1. Ouch! The chance to find a PR amongst 6 townies is 33% if you kill randomly!
2. You lim a PR. Also, see above. Ouch!
3. You lim a VT, but you have no dayplay info Day 2. If you have just two Masons, for example, then town needs two other obvtown to win. Without much info Day 1.
4. If you no elim or lim a VT you (unless kills get blocked) have only ONE mislim. And 3 VT's. That's still decent.

Pr dies night one on rand 2/7. Less than 30% a little more than a quarter. 75% instant win is always suboptimal.
If you lim anyone D1 you’re not following the way it’s broken so ???

No elim two immediate clears scum can’t cc because has to be first post on D2 literally is what I said and your response ignores it

Correction is suboptimal for scum optimal for town.

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I think he is saying that

I think he is thinking about his way to play scum as the best when I actually have a pretty good scum rate.

To be able to play good scum you have to have the ability to control the gamestate

With 3 conf towns there is no room to breathe. So RC argues its 50/50

But town has all the information from D1 and D2 and that the conf towns determine every elim

Or you CC which means you can’t perfectly win and have to sacrifice a piece and that other scum has to go deep

Except town knows the other scum has to go deep so there’s no viable strategy.

2+ conf towns on D2 is too strangling.

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Anyone outside that conf town is in essence not playing.

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There’s no way for a perfect win and tell scum it’s fair based on “random chance”

But scum and town don’t have the same leverage.

In a cop 9er there’s equal chance at leverage.

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It’s more a matter of a complete lack of agency.

The proper thing after mass claim is elim the last person to claim a PR as it’s more probably scum.

This eliminates fake claiming with any sort of knowledge.

Then people know that so then after claims if someone scum did fake claim first then it sticks out as a sore thumb then they still lose

Claiming a PR is instant loss of that slot either that day or if extremely lucky next.

This forces a conf town in elo and again it’s about making conf towns like you versus actively deceiving them.

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And no if town uniformly and by agreement knows to never post scum don’t know who to kill.

It becomes to town’s advantage to never post D1.

Then scum likely kill a VT.

Then mass claim D2.

One scum at random has to claim PR in their D2 opening post and it has to match the setup. Or gg they lose

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Then there’s the whole matter of town gets agency and scum doesn’t.

The random odds may be equal but then town gets all the ability to sort and communicate and scum turn into a bunch of yes people.

You take away almost all of scum’s tools except one strategy and go “but it’s 50/50”

That’s just not accurate.

If I take away town’s ability to post in complete sentences but then the mathematical odds are 50/50, is it?

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I think many, many of the games here suffer from way too many PRs and I think towns (and scums) will be better by taking them out.

Too many players take a passive mindset of “just wait for the PRs to do things”. Because the site meta has trended towards adding PRs as a whole then VTs never really engage because then it’s wait on results.

This causes more scope creep for PRs. It’s a lot more evident in other setups but there’s no reason town has to have two PRs in a micro. They could have 0, 1, or 2. But now it’s expected towns have two PRs and it’s seeped into the meta.

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viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39773

Random selection of an older game.

No PRs town wins.

Recent game town had masons, scum win.

The fix for bad towns isn’t adding PRs.

It’s practice and talking.

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In conclusion, a randomization of games is needed.

Some games need 0, some 1, and some 2.

But if the answer is always 2 then VTs know what they say doesn’t matter and same with scum.

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And if those two exist they should never be able to guilty or inno a third without giving scum defense

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viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39773

Random selection of an older game.

No PRs town wins.

Recent game town had masons, scum win.

The fix for bad towns isn’t adding PRs.

It’s practice and talking.

this example is an open setup with 8 vts and 1 scum tho

That’s my point. Towns are much more engaged when they believe what they say matters.

In setups with more PRs then VTs continually check out, because PRs will solve the game for them.

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viewtopic.php?f=54&t=87020&hilit=Calculasia

Take for example this game:

Town had more power than in a newbie game and scum had less.

For all intents and purposes I should have lost that elo.

But town had too much power to be believed. It was more than the newbie queue and diffused so scum can’t just kill one person.