Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703


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Post Post #2 (isolation #0) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:39 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

/confirm
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Post Post #15 (isolation #1) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:38 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

vote xtoxm


one game too many!
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Post Post #26 (isolation #2) » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:42 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

So is this some kind of commonly used setup or did Crazy come up with this setup?

If it is a commonly used setup, anybody have any links to previous games?

I don't think a night start game really calls for a random voting phase since we already have information to start from (and in this instance we kind of had random voting already).
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Post Post #28 (isolation #3) » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:51 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Answers to my own questions:
Adel wrote:
Night Watch Mafia


3 Mafia Goons
1 Role Cop (detects Goons as "vanilla")
2 Watchers
1 Hider
5 Vanilla townies

Night Start
Was suggested by Adel on Sept. 6 and I don't think the game has been run yet.
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Post Post #30 (isolation #4) » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:24 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Xtoxm wrote:What is the point of this being Night start?

All it is is Mafia get pot luck on whether or not they remove a power role.

Vote Crazy


Still think only a maf would know that.
Night start is good for town IMO (sucks for first killed) since we start with odd numbers. I hate that normal minis start with even numbers for simple math reasons.

With 2 watchers, mafia also runs a very high risk of getting caught on n1.

Also, Crazy voted for this setup in the Open Setup nomination thread where it is shown as a night start (see my quote of Adel). Anybody who read that thread (and especially anybody who voted for it) would know it was a night start. Knowing Crazy a little bit (more from Epic Mafia than games here), I know he is rather particular about setups.

He could be scum, but that reason is a poor one.
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Post Post #33 (isolation #5) » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:58 pm

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camn wrote: @Bionic, You seem to be defending Crazy. Are you?
Yes, I am defending Crazy from this particular argument. I make it a habit to counter any poor argument against any player. Even if I find the player being attacked to be scummy, I will point out flawed arguments against them.

The argument that mafia would know the game is a night start while town would not is extremely flawed. All role PMs are posted at the opening of the game and none indicate the game would be a night start.
camn wrote: Also.. why such concern about the setup? How does it help to know if it has been played before? And who designed it...?
The setup of open games is very critical and understanding them is very important. Who designed it wasn't particularly important except when I didn't know how Crazy would have assumed it was night start. I thought maybe he designed the game setup. I found out he didn't, so I figured I may as well post that here along with the other information I found (Crazy voted for the setup shortly after the idea was posted).

Knowing if it has been played before would give me a game to read. By reading a game of the same setup, I would be able to see how early certain roles claimed and what methods were most effective in finding scum. With watchers, you can have roles claim and then bait the scum into killing them:

example - role cop claims and watchers watch (better if 2 watchers exist). If the RC lives, the watchers know the other watcher. If the RC dies, the watchers know 1 scum + the other watcher. If the RC dies, you can then do a 'watcher claim' where every player says 2 people who visited the dead player (this is so scum can't fake to be a watcher).

Now, I don't know how effective such an approach might be, which is why I wanted to read any previous games of this setup.
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Post Post #38 (isolation #6) » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:18 pm

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icemanE wrote:Personally I don't see what's wrong with a RV stage in an open setup
Nothing is wrong with it. I thought the night start gave us the jump start we needed plus there was some random voting prior to the night actually starting. Add to that Xtoxm had already moved into a real vote before the night started and it seems silly to revert to random. Random is only a filler until something better comes along to discuss. There is no reason IMO to prolong the stage if the game has naturally progressed into actual game play.
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Post Post #60 (isolation #7) » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:27 pm

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wiki wrote:The Hider has the ability to target one player each night. If that player is pro-town, the hider is protected from Night-Kills that night.
If the player targeted is killed that same night, the Hider dies too.
If the player targeted is Mafia, the hider usually dies.
The bolded part is what I consider the norm for a hider. The mod will need to clarify. All talks about announcing who the hider hides behind won't get us anywhere. If the mafia knows where the hider hides, they can get 2 kills in one night.
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Post Post #61 (isolation #8) » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:29 pm

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afatchic wrote:okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.
This actually doesn't sound bad. We may need to think about this further.
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Post Post #69 (isolation #9) » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:49 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Ok, so let's run this past me again. Essentially, every person says whom they would hide behind if they were the real hider. Then... what? We let mafia choose the person to kill that would most likely result in a double nightkill?

Planfail.
There are many ways to manipulate the mafia if town fake claims properly. This is the most effective use of the hider role IMO. If one person has 2 people 'hiding' behind them, then the watcher could also watch that person and catch mafia trying to pick off the double kill. Also, if hider dies (non-double kill) we have 1 mafia with no argument on who it is (whoever hider targeted).

vote TCS
for now, since this plan is obviously a solid approach.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #10) » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:34 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I think the consensus is that a hypoclaim is the best option here.

I think this option is very pro-town, so I am going to start a popcorn style hypo claim. Nobody has to follow obviously, but I am not one to sit around and wait for others to act.

If I am hider, I will target Xtoxm. I almost want to target afatchic because more coverage would be provided, but I will stick with Xtoxm.

I choose camn to go next.
hypoclaim wrote: bionicchop2--->Xtoxm
If everybody could quote the hypoclaim and add theirs, it would help. I would also say that anybody can change their hypoclaim at any time once we get the first pass done (may change their mind and find a better option). Just quote to last one and edit yours.

The reason I want to move this along is so we can use the rest of the day period scum hunting. It is easy for scum to blend in with strategy talk once a consensus is reached. They can easily just agree that the action is pro-town. For that reason,
unvote TCS
. My vote was a reaction to his disagreement with the strategy. In hindsight, this does not make him any more likely to be scum and may actually make him less likely to be scum.

On the flip side of that, I will
vote icemanE
for following me on that vote. I remember from my only other open game played (polygamist - xtoxm will remember, will link if needed) that scum jumped on me and my town lover twisting our statements to seem like we were against the pro-town course of action decided on. Nothing concrete here, but this vote is better than my previous one.
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Post Post #85 (isolation #11) » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:54 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Since I forgot to mention who I hid behind last night:
hypoclaim night 1 wrote: bionicchop2--->camn
camn-------->Bionic
hypoclaim night 2 wrote: bionicchop2--->Xtoxm
camn-------->Bionic
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Post Post #86 (isolation #12) » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:56 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Am I missing something? We are essentially gambling for a 30% chance of getting an investigation in exchange for a townie death, while increasing from 12.5% to the mafia's odds of getting a double kill with no town upside.
You are still forgetting about the remaining watcher - so mafia needs to be cautious about who will be watched.
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Post Post #90 (isolation #13) » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:42 pm

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afatchic wrote:just out of curiosity does anyone other than me see something going terribly wrong with the hypoclaim?
If somebody picked mafia n1 in their list , then mafia would know which ones are fake.

Maybe we should skip night 1 for now?
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Post Post #94 (isolation #14) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:47 am

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ortolan wrote:Mod: Does the hider die if on any particular night they hide behind someone who is killed on that same night?
Jex wrote:
If the person the hider chooses to hid behind is killed that night the hider will die too.
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Post Post #97 (isolation #15) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:59 am

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icemanE wrote:My main concern with the plan is that, if the mafia luck out and hit the hider on their own, we might make the mistake of assuming that the hider hid behind mafia and lynch someone based on their hypoclaim - that could be a problem, now that I think of it.
I don't understand what you are saying. If mafia targets the hider directly, the result is a no kill unless the hider did not hide. The only way the hider dies when hiding is by hiding behind mafia or the person they hid behind is shot.

Once dead, we look at who the hider hid behind the night before. If it matches the other player who died that day, then they obviously did not hide behind mafia. If the player they hid behind is alive, that player is mafia.
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Post Post #99 (isolation #16) » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:14 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote: To clear it up - If the mafia target the hider, it will kill whomever the hider hid behind instead of the hider?
No.

If mafia (X) targets hider (A) and hider is behind another player (B), it looks like this:

Code: Select all

X ------------------------
                     BA


Result = no death

If mafia (X) targets player (B) and hider (A) is behind player (B), it looks like this:

Code: Select all

X ----------------BA---


Result = bullet goes through both.
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Post Post #120 (isolation #17) » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:23 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:camn how do i make the list and i will do it myself, just don't have any idea how to.

Code: Select all

[quote="hypoclaim n1"]
Text
[/quote]


If I get a chance, I will gather all the info up, but probably not tonight. somebody else may get to it first.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #18) » Fri Nov 14, 2008 4:10 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Looks like we are still waiting on Panda stomper to finish out the hypoclaim.

I agree that ortolan's first few posts about the roles were a little role fishy upon first read. I would say it is worth note, but definitely not worth getting distracted by. Both sides have made their point about it and everybody can form their own opinions.

I would need to see other scummy actions before calling him scum for it, since scum are generally cautious about saying anything that sounds like role fishing (not to say they won't).
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Post Post #152 (isolation #19) » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:01 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Let's see where this goes...

unvote, vote;TCS


I have a full day of being lazy tomorrow, so I should get a good read in then.
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Post Post #159 (isolation #20) » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:25 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

unvote;vote icemanE
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Post Post #165 (isolation #21) » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:30 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

wiki wrote:Common Tells
From MafiaWiki
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This information is probably out of date, and needs to be edited by someone who knows what has happened since early 2005.
Reason for vote on TCS - to see who the first player to overreact would be. icemanE stepped into that one nicely. I gave an intentionally easy target for scum to pounce on and point fingers.

Reason for vote on icemanE - see reason for vote on TCS. icemanE comes in and uses outdated wiki material on tells that are no longer valid. Add to this I was the first person to vote TCS, changed my opinion and then voted iceman when he voted for TCS.
wikiOMGUS wrote:
Occasionally
a Scum player will use it to cover a strategic vote, feigning outrage to get someone else closer to a lynch.
1. I haven't seen any solid evidence that OMGUS is a current and legit scum tell.

2. My vote has been on icemanE for the past week, taken off temporarily to see who would react to my bandwagon vote. I have stated my suspicions of him prior to any FOS on his part.
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Post Post #170 (isolation #22) » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:51 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

StrangerCoug wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:1. I haven't seen any solid evidence that OMGUS is a current and legit scum tell.
Voting someone solely for voting you, which is the basic form of OMGUS, is indeed a scumtell, and you proposing otherwise does nothing to help your town image. In fact, it hurts it. HoS stands, but I'm debating whether this warrants a vote.
Provide one example of scum voting for a town person, not giving any reason for voting and it is clear that the vote was a direct result of the other person voting for them. OMGUS can only be used if you can prove that no reason was given for the vote (otherwise the term doesn't exist). If you can prove a vote had no valid reason behind it, that is scummy on its own and the fact the other person voted for them is inconsequential. All the term does (and the scumminess associated with it) is make players hesitant to vote anybody who votes for them or is suspicious of them.

Now, iceman and yourself have both applied the term to me. You made an assumption I only voted him because he FOS'd me. Now, if OMGUS is such a clear scum tell, explain how my vote on iceman (which made me look suspicious by being intentionally vague) would advance a scum agenda of not getting myself lynched and getting an innocent town player lynched.
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Post Post #172 (isolation #23) » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:58 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: I don't think I'd characterize playing off of the wiki as an "overreaction." While I think I understand the content of your bone with Iceman, I don't like how you played this.
The overreaction was pretending like the 2 votes in question weren't blatantly obvious in their bandwagon for the sake of bandwagon nature.
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Post Post #173 (isolation #24) » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:59 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: A question Which do you generally find more likely for scum to do--start a wagon or hop onto one?
Neither are universal. It isn't the action which makes a person scummy, but the intent. The challenge in scum hunting comes from determining the root reasoning behind every action and not the reasoning which the player gives readily (in the case of a town player, the reason they give typically matches the reason for the action).
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Post Post #185 (isolation #25) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:42 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

StrangerCoug wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:Provide one example of scum voting for a town person, not giving any reason for voting and it is clear that the vote was a direct result of the other person voting for them.
Post #159 before you even bothered with #165.
1. That is not an example since you do not know my alignment (unless you are scum which would make it an even worse example since you know I am town).

2. icemanE never voted for me
StrangerCoug wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:OMGUS can only be used if you can prove that no reason was given for the vote (otherwise the term doesn't exist). If you can prove a vote had no valid reason behind it, that is scummy on its own and the fact the other person voted for them is inconsequential. All the term does (and the scumminess associated with it) is make players hesitant to vote anybody who votes for them or is suspicious of them.
If you have a valid reason to vote back, then OMGUS does not happen. If I see someone make a crap case on me and vote me for it, I will attack the case and vote back.
That is kind of my point. The lack of reasoning is the root problem and the fact the other person voted is irrelevant. This is turning into theory debate though and I don't care to try and convince you of this point.
bionicchop2 wrote:Now, iceman and yourself have both applied the term to me. You made an assumption I only voted him because he FOS'd me. Now, if OMGUS is such a clear scum tell, explain how my vote on iceman (which made me look suspicious by being intentionally vague) would advance a scum agenda of not getting myself lynched and getting an innocent town player lynched.
I see a vote and expect to find a reasoning for it in that post, or failing that, for the vote post to tell me to go look at a specific post for it. You did not vote icemanE and tell us that you were voting him for the same reasons as your vote on The Central Scrutinizer in the same post—you waited until a later post. It gives the same vibes as "vote: bionicchop2. I'll tell you why later." Were your vote and your reason (or a reference to it) in the same place, I would not have HoS'd you.[/quote]

I don't think the timing of revealing reasons matters as long as the reasons are there. If you had asked me for a reason and I had refused to answer, it would be one thing. I do want to be clear, I don't think you were necessarily wrong to question me for what I did. I just think some of your assertions about what is definitively scummy are wrong.
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Post Post #186 (isolation #26) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:10 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:
Reason for vote on TCS - to see who the first player to overreact would be. icemanE stepped into that one nicely. I gave an intentionally easy target for scum to pounce on and point fingers.
Never do this. setting a trap, normally always catches you. unless you are a mason, in which case you have other proof that you are townie, it normally gets more pressure on you then the person jumping on you. also a lot of times the first person to jump on you is an over eager townie, rather than an opportunistic scum.
Never say never. I am not overly concerned about getting pressure placed on me. icemanE may be an overeager townie or he may be scum, but now I at least have a lead on where to start looking. Previously I didn't have much and the conversation was a little slow (hence the deadline was set).
afatchic wrote: also you voted with the promise of a reread and more thought.... hows that coming?
The first 6-7 pages really haven't given me much yet. The 2nd read didn't do anything to change that. I think that information will be useful in upcoming days for clearing people, but nothing as far as scum hunting. I am in favor of strategy discussions on d1 of open games, so I am not going to criticize others for it.
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Post Post #187 (isolation #27) » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:35 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:Are you kidding or something, bio? You're attempting to defend your actions by saying that, since someone wrote on the wiki that it's "probably out of date", that those things are no longer scumtells?
Specifically that the one you chose hasn't been valid in any games I have played. Others in that list also are irrelevant now. The list was made in 2004 and players have adapted over the course of the last 4 years.
icemanE wrote: That voting without reason isn't scummy no matter whether the wiki says so or not?
icemanE wrote: Bio's a pro guys, don't forget it.
Sarcastically criticizing my general ability to play mafia really isn't super productive. Focus on the game content please.
icemanE wrote: How can you say your vote on me was "intentionally vague"?
How can I not say it when I intentionally did not post my reason for voting you when I did?
icemanE wrote: What did you hope to accomplish with its being vague? In short, what was your "intent"?
I was seeing if your response would match my assumption of what your response would be. It did. You are playing by the textbook, so I figured I would do something else which is mentioned on the page and I don't agree with. Now I need to decide (as afatchic kind of pointed out) if you are an eager townie assuming the wiki tells are true and thinking you are on to something, or scum using an appeal to authority to plant seeds of suspicion. If I decide you are probably townie, then I can look at how other people responded to our interactions.
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Post Post #204 (isolation #28) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:21 am

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icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: Specifically that the one you chose hasn't been valid in any games I have played. Others in that list also are irrelevant now. The list was made in 2004 and players have adapted over the course of the last 4 years.
You're correct there - as a general trend, scum have probably become more aware of what not to do over the years based at least in part on what the wiki says - they can see what they're not expected to do. However, from my experience, scum do tend to slip nicely and easily onto a wagon while it's forming more often than they start their own wagons. Is this to say that every time someone joins a wagon third or fourth, they're automatically scum? No. In fact, it's not even scummy much of the time. However, when two players join a wagon third and fourth and provide no substantive reasons for doing so... that IS scummy.
So, in the same breathe you admit the tell is not reliable, yet hold firm that in this case it is? That is kind of a relativist fallacy there. You think I slipped when I voted in the 4th spot? What advantage did I gain by jumping in the 4th spot?
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: I was seeing if your response would match my assumption of what your response would be. It did.
Might I ask where this assumption came from?
Since you were pulling directly from unreliable tells, I assumed you would try to say my vote was OMGUS (even though you never even voted for me).
icemanE wrote: PS - I've only seen a player successfully pull off a move like this once - it was vollkan in a game that's currently ongoing, so I can't get too into the details, but he self-voted to draw attention to himself - I pressed him incredibly hard for it, and he claimed that was his whole reason for self-voting, to get people to press him. I wound up being lynched for it - I was a townie. Granted, there were many other reasons I was lynched - my flavor was misleading in that game - but what I'm saying is, challenging someone for self-voting OR for voting without reason is NOT something only scum do, so your experiment (and vollkan's) are flawed in nature.
You contradict yourself. You say it was successful, but it was also flawed. I don't see how it was 'successful' if it lead to a lynch of a town player and I also don't see how you can relate self-voting to bandwagoning.
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: You are playing by the textbook, so I figured I would do something else which is mentioned on the page and I don't agree with. Now I need to decide (as afatchic kind of pointed out) if you are an eager townie assuming the wiki tells are true and thinking you are on to something, or scum using an appeal to authority to plant seeds of suspicion. If I decide you are probably townie, then I can look at how other people responded to our interactions.
I think if you read a few of my games you'll quickly realize that I'm anything but a textbook player. Check out high school mafia or Meatworldish mafia if you feel like you need proof of that. I only reference and quote the wiki when I see something that makes me think "Oh yeah, that's in the wiki", or when it just makes more sense to quote it than not.
I didn't say you were a textbook player, but you are playing by the textbook in this game. You are using information which is not reliable and applying it to justify a FoS/vote.
icemanE wrote: @ Fat - Yeah, buddying up is definitely common scum. If that's what YOU think is happening here, I'm assuming your view is also that bio is the scum and you're the townie. Is that the case, or are you simply saying it happens?
I 'buddied up' to the idea. I couldn't care less whose name was attached to it. The idea was good. Both scum and town can agree to a pro-town idea.
icemanE wrote: TCS - his reasoning in post 192 are pretty weak. It looks like pretty lazy justification for what he's done over the course of the game.
Please identify what I have done 'over the course of the game' so I can respond to it.
icemanE wrote: At the moment I'm going to
unvote
as I feel that fat has played well and brought up good points - that, and I still can't see anything anti-town or pro-scum about the hypo plan. I'm going to switch over to
vote: bio
for that nonsense scheme he cooked up.
Remember when you added OMGUS to your short list of scummy actions I did? This is where pot meets kettle and admits to him that OMGUS is just a red herring. Since all of your few reasons listed why I am scum are null tells, your vote is left with only my vote preceding it and no valid reason associated.
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Post Post #209 (isolation #29) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:46 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: So, in the same breathe you admit the tell is not reliable, yet hold firm that in this case it is? That is kind of a relativist fallacy there.
No, that's inaccurate.
Please identify how it is inaccurate. Somebody has to be in the 3rd and 4th spot. If previously it had been scum a large number of times and players adapt as they become aware of the wiki, then gradually the number of scum in those spots would reduce. I think 4 years is enough for that change to be significant. Now, the fact I knew exactly where to find the tell you mentioned without you linking the wiki and which section it is would imply I have a fairly decent knowledge of the wiki contents.
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: You think I slipped when I voted in the 4th spot? What advantage did I gain by jumping in the 4th spot?
An easily joined wagon. You didn't start it, so you didn't need a case - you didn't second it, so you didn't have to explain why you agree or disagree - and you didn't finish it. You're a face in the crowd, which is awfully nice for scum.


So if a townie was lynched and I was in the 2nd spot without a reason to vote, it would be ok? I also can't really be a face in the crowd unless the wagon is completed behind me culminating in a lynch. As it stood, I was just dangling off the end of a wagon as plain as day.
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: Since you were pulling directly from unreliable tells, I assumed you would try to say my vote was OMGUS (even though you never even voted for me).
Wait - so your master plan for catching scum was based on someone calling you out for what appeared to be an OMGUS vote? Wow, that's foolproof!
I don't have a master plan. I was looking for a good starting point. It started with your initial reaction and continues with our discussion. I am sure mockery of others (you seem to include a nice jab at me in every post) is a less effective form of scum hunting than whatever method I choose.
icemanE wrote:
Bio wrote: You contradict yourself. You say it was successful, but it was also flawed. I don't see how it was 'successful' if it lead to a lynch of a town player and I also don't see how you can relate self-voting to bandwagoning.
He succeeded in his aim, which was to get me lynched. I didn't relate self-voting and bandwagoning - I said the two of you set up the same trap. You both did something to appear scummy and then called people out for mentioning it.
If his aim was to get a townie lynched, then he is scum. If his aim was to find someone suspicious and you acted suspicious, then it is more a case of you being unsuccessful at being town.
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: I didn't say you were a textbook player, but you are playing by the textbook in this game. You are using information which is not reliable and applying it to justify a FoS/vote.
Typically when people say you're doing things by the textbook, they mean you're doing precisely the right thing as ordered.
Yes. In this game you are/were. Other games don't matter. Your general play across the site may not be textbook, but that is where you were pulling your scum tells from in this game.
icemanE wrote:
bio wrote: I 'buddied up' to the idea. I couldn't care less whose name was attached to it. The idea was good. Both scum and town can agree to a pro-town idea.
That was addressed to fat, hence the paragraph beings with: @Fat.
I misread the TCS one, but this one was about me - even if directed to somebody else.
icemanE wrote: First off, when I originally voted fat, I had a whole paragraph about why I was doing it, and it ended with this:
I wrote:So, with that in mind, I'm going to unvote - vote: afatchic and FoS: bio while I do a readthrough (and perhaps a PBPA, if I find it necessary) on the two of them.
If I could have just voted for both of you, I would have. As it were, if you read the paragraph you'll realize I said no more about fat than I did about you - my reasons for both of you were exactly the same, and as such my vote and FoS were interchangeable.
And my vote on you originated in post 76 which had my initial reasons for voting you. Those reasons do not go away because I unvoted for a short period of time. All I am doing is showing you the 'OMGUS' tag you chose to put on me is inaccurate and misleading.
icemanE wrote: And what I said weren't nulltells.
If both scum and town are equally likely to do something, then it is by definition a null tell. You have accused me of 2 things - voting 4th and OMGUS. For every 1 time you see scum do this (proven scum, not me who you just accuse of being scum) I will find multiple town players who have done the same.
icemanE wrote: Your plan is just stupid, if nothing else, it yields at very best a nulltell, which is "you accused me of being scummy for doing something easily interpretable as scummy. You must be scum".
Replace 'easily interpretable' with 'easily frameable' and you might be close. The real information comes once we get this deep into the conversation and you can find no additional reasons for your vote (and preceding FOS) outside of the antiquated scum tell you started with.
icemanE wrote: Come on bio, get some sense.
How does me having sense play into this (or do you just choose to try and shift my perceived abilities into the negative range so people will dismiss my arguments - seems to be common in your posts)? If you think I have no sense and you are town, then I have to be town making poor choices. If I was scum and you were town, I would be knowingly trying to get a town player lynched and be perfectly sensible in doing such.
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Post Post #210 (isolation #30) » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:55 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Lurker comment (as you can see from my sig, I have an opinion on them).

If you are going to vote one, it should be Crazy since he is at least active on the site. Panda made his last post on the site in this game and only posted 7 times on the site as a whole (6 in this game). He isn't 'lurking', he just obviously is not playing mafia on this site.
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Post Post #222 (isolation #31) » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:12 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Also,
vote:bionicchip2
, because I think Iceman makes several good points... I especially liked "so your master plan was to catch whoever accused you of OMGUS?"
Please identify all 'several' of his good points.
The Central Scrutinizer wrote: We must remember that if we consider the current meta to be ahead of the wiki because of common reference to the wiki, it is the duty of town not to do things on the wiki... right?
wrong. It is the duty of town to look for scum based on current meta and their understanding of the individuals involved instead of trying to apply universal scum tells. Iceman is modding a game I am playing. He knows my alignment there and can easily get a grasp of how I play.
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Post Post #233 (isolation #32) » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:05 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote:Greetings, everyone.

Before I read this game, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
I don't do homework for other students. Some people made some posts. Some people made some responses. It is your job to interpret them. If you want my full summary of the game.

Just kidding. I have written a synopsis of my thoughts here. Enjoy.
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Post Post #234 (isolation #33) » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:06 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Haschel Cedricson wrote:Greetings, everyone.

Before I read this game, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
So... what's the over/under on those being his scum partners?

Welcome to the game, HC.
I'll accept whatever offer you are putting on the table.
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Post Post #242 (isolation #34) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:22 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

OP
- you seem to be the only person with your random vote still hanging around. Please update us on your current top suspect.
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Post Post #245 (isolation #35) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:53 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:I'm still fine with bio.
Nice fluff post.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #36) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:29 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:I don't do homework for other students. Some people made some posts. Some people made some responses. It is your job to interpret them. If you want my full summary of the game.

Just kidding. I have written a synopsis of my thoughts here. Enjoy.
I just want the main bullet points.
Then you can read and make your own. I am not your puppet. 10 pages is about 30 minutes of your time.

If you have any direct questions, I will answer them, but I will not summarize the game for you. I expect all players to read the game in its entirety.
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Post Post #252 (isolation #37) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:37 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote: I'll gladly share my reasons for asking those specific players. After, of course, ortolan gives a summary.
Your 'reasons' can only be random, because:
Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Before I read this game
, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
.

If you haven't read the game yet, there can be no specific reason to select any 2 players.
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Post Post #255 (isolation #38) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:41 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote: I already have read the game, and I have my own bullet points. I'm interested in yours.
oh. Then you already know my thoughts on the game.
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Post Post #256 (isolation #39) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:47 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote:What significant events stand out in your mind when you think about the game?
You coming in and being bossy. I am currently wondering about your motivation.

The rest of my thoughts took 39 posts to compose and I have no desire to whittle them down into a nice little package.
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Post Post #261 (isolation #40) » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:18 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Haschel Cedricson wrote:EBWOP: I am NOT asking you to whittle down your posts. In fact, if your summary was from memory that would be even better.
It isn't happening. Make your point. The next request for me to make a summary will just be spam and won't get a response.

FOS Haschel
who is now a very close 2nd on my suspect list.
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Post Post #294 (isolation #41) » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:33 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

@ haschel - I am satisfied with your follow ups to your summary requests. For now I believe it was genuine scum hunting. I think it is flawed, but all scum hunting is flawed at least a little.


There is a decent case behind this OP wagon. Going to hold my vote on icemanE a little longer, but there doesn't seem to be anybody agreeing with me ATM.

@crazy - really need more participation from you. I don't remember you being this inactive last time we played in the same game. For someone who really liked the setup, you don't seem to be paying attention to it.
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Post Post #303 (isolation #42) » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:12 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote:+1 TCS.
-2 camn

(translation
FOS camn
fluff)
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Post Post #311 (isolation #43) » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:12 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote:
Now Bio, what do you think about X and Ice's posts?
I think Xtoxm is playing his standard game and Ice is scum (only posted as certainty for added drama). When Xtoxm says he doesn't like a wagon, it translates to me that he thinks the player is town.

The one thing going for iceman in this case is he hasn't taken any opportunity to jump on either of the 2 larger wagons. Could possibly be a case of a town player who thinks they are correct.
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Post Post #316 (isolation #44) » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:00 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I will be LA the next few days (which means I will probably end up online way more than I should be). I will move my vote after friday since it is not helping anything sitting alone on iceman.

Somebody convince me between my 2 choices of Camn / OP.
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Post Post #346 (isolation #45) » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:23 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I should be back into the swing of things by tomorrow. I will give this game heavy attention as we approach deadline this week.
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Post Post #348 (isolation #46) » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:19 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote:...there are people with ZERO votes on them right now that I'd rather see lynched because I think they are scummier than the three of us.
Why haven't you expressed any of this and made any attempt to vote for them?
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Post Post #361 (isolation #47) » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:08 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

OP may as well just claim now.
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Post Post #364 (isolation #48) » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:24 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote:If after I post it, people are still not convinced, I will claim my role, even though I rather wouldn't day 1.
Here is my opinion: If you are saying you are a power role, I think you leave it at that - but you need to say it definitively. At least that would leave some WIFOM for scum - not knowing if they need to target you directly. If you are hider, they miss. If you are watcher, you can watch the person you said you would hide behind - again to WIFOM an prevent them targeting for the double kill.

So, I guess just knowing power / vanilla is better than knowing the exact role at this stage of the game.
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Post Post #366 (isolation #49) » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:26 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

You can also do none of the above.

Also, I have decided to hide behind Haschel tonight instead of Xtoxm as I am starting to get an odd feeling about Xtoxm.
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Post Post #367 (isolation #50) » Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:32 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote: Well, I am a power. I'll go with your advice, and leave it at that.

Of course, with my record and everything, I doubt anyone believes me anyways at this point.
1. Record means nothing. I am 2-7 as town (0-1 as scum) at this point and it won't slow me down one bit.

2. I actually believe you.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #51) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:27 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

(for reference)
Jex wrote:
Vote Count

2 - The Central Scrutinizer (Haschel Cedricson, ortolan)
1 - orangepenguin (The Central Scrutinizer)
1 - camn (Crazy)
1 - bionicchop2 (icemanE)
1 - Crazy (Xtoxm)
1 - icemanE (bionicchop2)
1 - Ortolan (orangepenguin)


Not Voting

camn, afatchic, StrangerCoug

It takes 6 votes to lynch

Deadline is Dec 5th
=============================
OK, some slightly odd stuff going on.
camn wrote:
Plus, in the TCS vs. Ort deal.. I think TCS has brought better analysis, and is thus more USEFUL to the town.. . but this could change.
DO I think either are 100% scum? No. But the deadline is coming fast... we need to accelerate some stuff here!
How have you reduced the scum hunt to TCS vs. Ort? Look at the previous vote count and it is obvious we have not narrowed it down to just one of those two. You make it look as if you are restricted to 2 options and are simply eliminating the one you feel is least likely yo be scum. You also push the deadline as your excuse if you are wrong. We have 3 full days to make a decision. Maybe it is lingering suspicion from your "arrggh I am so angry at Panda for lurking" act, but I have had a real bad read on you for a good portion of the game.

unvote icemanE;vote Camn


===============================
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:So yeah... unvote, vote: Haschel Cedricson

P1: One of orangepenguin or Haschel Cedricson is scum.
P2: Orange penguin is not scum.

Ergo, HC is scum.
Could you explain this process to me? In order to make a reductive conclusion based off of P1, you need to have confirmation P1 is true. I am not sure what you are really trying to say here.

==============================
hypoclaim n1

bionicchop2--->camn
camn---------->Bionic
TCS------------->Crazy
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->icemanE
orangepenguin-->Xtoxm
Xtoxm------------>camn
icemanE------->afatchic
Crazy-------->Haschel Cedricson
ortolan-------->Bionic

hypoclaim n2

bionicchop2---->
Xtoxm
Haschel Cedricson
camn------------>afatchic
TCS------------->Haschel Cedricson
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->StrangerCoug
orangepenguin-->ortolan
Xtoxm--------->icemanE
icemanE----->StrangerCoug
Crazy--------->TCS
ortolan--------->camn


I had previously changed my choice for tonight (Xtoxm feels slightly off his town meta, but I need a closer read on that). Haschel's choices need to be added to the list.
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Post Post #394 (isolation #52) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:09 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote:
afatchic wrote: What makes you think that TCS is more pro-town than ortolan?
This is where it came from, Bionic.
Which came from this:
camn wrote:I I would rather see the Central Scrutinizer live than this guy.

Why did you leave that out of the quote when you quoted afatchic? The choice of TCS or Ortolan came from you, afatchic only questioned you on your preference of one over the other.
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Post Post #396 (isolation #53) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:29 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote: so right now would i be right in saying TCS Camn and ortolan are all leading the vote count with two each?

By my count, yes they all have 2 votes.
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Post Post #398 (isolation #54) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:39 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Camn - you can see from my vote how easy it is to make a conscious decision to not just settle on somebody at the top of the list because of a deadline. I do not feel strongly enough about either of the 2 players who had 2 votes (TCS, Ort), so I voted someone who I had a strong feeling about. Maybe you did the same, but you built the deadline into your reasoning and implied you were not looking at other players.

My reasons I don't buy into either of the other 2 is they both appear to be easy targets:

- TCS can be found making posts with unsound logic in many games. I misread him as scum in my one prior game with him. He may be scum, but there is no convincing case of it. Right now I see him as a convenient place for scum votes (not to say all voting him are scum).

- Ort is obviously a newer player. He is being voted mostly for role speculation and 'fishing'. Some of my earlier posts were about role speculation, including thoughts about watcher claims (I dismissed these, but still discussed them). Nobody jumped on me for it. My guess is because I am a more active player and have shown an ability to stand up for myself when under direct questioning.

Side note - has anybody seen iceman around?
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Post Post #400 (isolation #55) » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:46 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote:I agree, Bionic.
Could you clarify what you agree with. My post addressed a few points. One of them was that I don't think Ort is scummy for his actions. If you blanket an 'I agree' over my post, you seem to be agreeing with my opinion of ortolan, which is not supported by your vote on him.

Who else are you suspicious of?
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Post Post #416 (isolation #56) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:48 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Also...
fos: bionic
.

In this hypoclaim strategy, it would ultimately behoove the hider to hide behind scum.
Take one second to think about how flawed your FoS is here.

1. If I am actually the hider, you are suspicious of a town power role for how I choose to use the role (doesn't make e less town). Whether you agree with a hider's choice or not does not make them mafia.

2. If I a not hider, my choice can neither clear a town player nor condemn a scum player. To FoS e in this case for not trying to catch mafia with an ability I don't have akes little sense.
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Post Post #417 (isolation #57) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:57 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Question for TCS, Xtoxm and icemanE -

Would you consider moving your vote at deadline to another player who has more than just your vote? If so, who would it be?

To answer my own question, if deadline was in a few hours and Camn was not looking like she would be lynched, I would likely vote for TCS. I feel between him and Ortolan he has a slightly higher chance of being scum. I also feel like I would be able to get a better read on Ortolan than TCS.

I would also jump on icemanE with a vote if he got anywhere within lynch range (would still prefer this over anybody else).
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Post Post #419 (isolation #58) » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:02 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Did anybody else notice that Ortolan's post #55 is actually the initial concept of the hypoclaim we have all decided to be pro-town? I only remembered his debate with Camn, but didn't quite have all the details fresh in my mind. I started a reread today since we are stalling slightly and I notice he actually suggested using the hider as an investigative role - just didn't have the specifics on execution where it would have been do-able.
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Post Post #424 (isolation #59) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:36 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Just a word about the uprising of Xtoxm suspicion: OP has claimed a power role. He hypoclaimed Xtoxm n1. If we find out OP is the hider, then Xtoxm is confirmed town.
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Post Post #427 (isolation #60) » Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:26 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

mod
- what is the time of the deadline on the 5th. I want to make sure it doesn't occur during my sleepy time or I may have to change my vote tonight. Otherwise I will be around most of the day tomorrow to adjust my vote as needed.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #61) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:00 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I will attempt a full thread read today. I encourage others to be active as much as possible for the next 13 hours until deadline.
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Post Post #438 (isolation #62) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:02 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Initial reactions to my re-skim:

====
Not as suspicious of icemanE. I may have been too trappy in my gambit. Needs refinement.
====
Very suspicious of Xtoxm due to my experience in playing with him. Something is off about his game in this one. I think he is fitting into his scum meta more than his town meta in a few ways. I will leave it at that for now. My point about OP's power claim and his hypclaim on Xtoxm remains, so I don't think he is a good vote for today. Definite
FoS
though and will look at closer if we find OP to not be hider.
=====
Camn still looking very scummy to me, particularly at the start of the game:
camn wrote:That sucks about KMD... I was looking forward to another game with you!
- discussion about being saddened by the night results which implies she would not kill KMD.
camn wrote: OR, maybe its scum trying to bait us into a WIFOM-driven retaliation nightkill discussion... :)
Like killing Xtoxm in order to build a case against Crazy. (which is what
I
would have done!)
- along the same lines, "If I were scum" discussion (unprovoked). Town really has no reason to discuss who they would have killed if they were scum.
=====
I also don't feel AS bad about the TCS wagon as I did previously. I still think Camn is a much better lynch today. She has also already claimed and did not claim a power role.
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Post Post #440 (isolation #63) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:17 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Well, we know camn will vote TCS, so we should assume he is at 4 votes (L-2) for all intents.

Since we are on deadline, I would request
TCS to claim in his next post
. My reasoning is that it will give us time to digest. If he claims something right before deadline and we have to change courses too quickly, we could end up with an accidental NL or a hasty lynch of someone else.
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Post Post #446 (isolation #64) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:03 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

wow, I just realized there are no rules posted...

::runs to quote mod PM::
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Post Post #448 (isolation #65) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:08 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote: I'm assuming the vote leader gets lynched.
Dangerous assumption. We should go for 6 votes and play it safe.
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Post Post #453 (isolation #66) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:14 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

no...8 hours and 45 minutes
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Post Post #454 (isolation #67) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:15 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Xtoxm wrote:Deadline is in 45 mins, fucking vote him.
10 PM PST is deadline. That is my time zone. It is currently 1:15 pm.
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Post Post #461 (isolation #68) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:29 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I will be here most of the day before deadline. We shouldn't have a problem locking a lynch.
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Post Post #463 (isolation #69) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:39 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:I will be here most of the day before deadline. We shouldn't have a problem locking a lynch.
25 mins to deadline....
bionicchop2 wrote:
Xtoxm wrote:Deadline is in 45 mins, fucking vote him.
10 PM PST is deadline. That is my time zone. It is currently 1:15 pm.
There is
8 HOURS and 21 minutes until deadline.
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Post Post #465 (isolation #70) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:44 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:Oh. Xtoxm said that it was 45 mins to deadline, and i assumed he knew what he was talking about.
Dangerous assumption #2 :twisted:

deadline is posted by the mod in the last vote count.
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Post Post #470 (isolation #71) » Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:27 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Who else will be around before deadline? Nobody is in range where I could hammer them at deadline. Like I said, I will be around, but someone needs to be at L-1 for my attendance to even matter.
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Post Post #487 (isolation #72) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:09 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote:Crazy is either a townie or a goon.
This is a bad reveal.

1. It doesn't give town any useful information.

2. It tells scum (if crazy isn't scum) that crazy isn't hider. This makes it easier for scum to find the hider.

3. It reveals your exact power role - what I wanted to avoid yesterday. If scum thought you might be hider, it at least made them double guess as far as night kills go.
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Post Post #488 (isolation #73) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:12 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:SC-When you claimed to hide behind the same person N1 and 2 i thought it was because you was a different PR(watcher, Rolecop) so i didn't push the issue. But now all Power Roles are outed, and that wasn't the case. So why exactly did you do that?
This is a totally pointless question. Look at when TCS FoS'd me and I responded. If he is hider, you are wasting time getting into a debate with a town player. If he is not, his choices do not matter.
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Post Post #490 (isolation #74) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:14 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

ortolan wrote:I think it's hard to read Post 472 as anything more than WIFOM

Even then, I'd actually be slightly more inclined to believe it's deliberately misleading i.e. the scum were the ones *not* voting for him
Agreed with the first part, not with the 2nd part.

It should have ZERO impact on any decisions anybody make. There is no way to logically conclude anything from a statement made by scum when they know they will be lynched or in the twilight period.
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Post Post #491 (isolation #75) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:17 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

ortolan wrote:I agree and was considering posting similar on the first two points, but we already knew he was the rolecop because if he was the hider he would have died when Kmd was killed
How? He didn't claim to hide behind KMD. Nobody did.
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Post Post #492 (isolation #76) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:18 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

bionicchop2 wrote:
ortolan wrote:I agree and was considering posting similar on the first two points, but we already knew he was the rolecop because if he was the hider he would have died when Kmd was killed
How? He didn't claim to hide behind KMD. Nobody did.
nm. Yeah I figured out he was RC yesterday too. Was hoping scum didn't and I guess I forgot why I figured that out.
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Post Post #497 (isolation #77) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:06 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Yeah, I didn't get a chance to mention because the thread was locked. I reverted back to Xtoxm. I felt I had to in case I died hiding, it was the only hope I had of someone figuring out who I hid behind.
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Post Post #510 (isolation #78) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:04 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

I may or may not be hider, but I have not claimed to be. I was extending the hypo-claim and responding to a direct question. I think tomorrow is the day for any hider claims.

Based on Xtoxm's last posts thought, I think he genuinely thinks he was cleared and expected to be cleared. Hints of town.
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Post Post #520 (isolation #79) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:54 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

StrangerCoug wrote:Try explaining what icemanE and I have done that is scummy, not using process of elimination based on for all I know are gut town reads on others.
That was elimination. The 5 he listed were the unknowns assuming I was hider who cleared xtoxm / camn and OP as role cop.

Since that is not the case, he needs to revisit his suspects to include camn and myself.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #80) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:06 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

I think the hider needs to be discussed - claim vs. continue hypoclaim 1 more day vs. don't do either.

I think process of elimination for scum will allow them to deduct who the hider is. We know camn has a spreadsheet. She may be scum. Scum may also have the hypoclaim laid out.

We have 9 players. Remove 2 scum and there are 7 possible. Remove role cop and you have 6. Remove crazy (if town) and you have 5. Remove xtoxm (if town - since he claimed townie) and you have 4. Remove camn who claimed townie and you have 3.

Hider is one of afatchic, bionicchop2, icemanE, ortolan, StrangerCoug minus the 2 scum (unless the 2 scum are accounted for elsewhere - camn, xtoxm, crazy).

Scum can also use the hypoclaim in reverse by eliminating people who said they hid behind scum.

I think it is possible scum already knows hider and I would not be against a claim today. If we decide not to claim, then I would say we do not continue the hypoclaim because it may give scum an easy double kill.

Now, if hider does claim, it can narrow down our suspects to 5 players (Role cop is clear, hider is clear, 2 townies would be clear - assuming no overlaps) giving a 40% shot on a completely random lynch. Hider can then either proceed to claim targets attempting to hide behind scum (risk double kill vs. finding scum) or just hide without claiming and target someone they know is town (33% double kill shot for scum) or random hide.
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Post Post #527 (isolation #81) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:07 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
Xtoxm wrote:Town has 2 mislynches in hand at this point anyway.
i didn't realize that. so it might be a good idea for the hider to claim now if they do have two innos. then we can probably narrow it down from there. if hider thinks this is a good idea, go ahead and claim i guess.
Simulpost!
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Post Post #528 (isolation #82) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:also, i haven't really thought this one through all the way, but what if we do a quick no lynch, let the hider clear one more, or find a mafia, and then we are guaranteed a win.
This would require another hypoclaim. Depends if we think scum already know hider. I think they would by now (but maybe they don't or they would have gone for double kill?)
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Post Post #531 (isolation #83) » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:38 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
Xtoxm wrote:Didn't realise Camn claimed townie. Well now Fat has too, so I think Hider should just claim.
I can claim mason, or SK, or Cult... but none of that matters. so why are we believing every time someone claims townie?
We are just believing it as a claim of 'not hider'. If camn was hider and claimed it saying at the same time she was getting some votes for a lynch, then it is a horrible move for a hider.
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Post Post #548 (isolation #84) » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:37 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

ortolan wrote:Oh and furthermore my astonishment in post 544 was explained by me not having read properly
You read properly. Afatchic wrote improperly. OP has never checked camn.
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Post Post #549 (isolation #85) » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:39 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I disagree with a no lynch here. I prefer to keep odd numbers whenever possible. If there is a double kill, then we have the option to nl tomorrow.
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Post Post #555 (isolation #86) » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:07 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

ortolan wrote:Yes, I agree, imo the hider should be claiming today
bionicchop2 wrote:
ortolan wrote:Oh and furthermore my astonishment in post 544 was explained by me not having read properly
You read properly. Afatchic wrote improperly. OP has never checked camn.
camn claimed vanilla on day 1
Yes, but afatchic said she was checked by RC (role cop), which is incorrect.
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Post Post #567 (isolation #87) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:03 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

so, hider says jump and everybody jumps?

vote camn
as a follow over from yesterday. Ortolan, I would like to know your reasons for voting crazy.

Xtoxm I would like to know yours which were never expresed yesterday.
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Post Post #569 (isolation #88) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:21 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote: And yeah, bionic. The real hider has no reason not to claim at this point, if afatchic is scum. Thus, in the absence of a counterclaim, we can consider him clear. Given that, the logic is good.
My comment wasn't about believing his claim (I do). It was about players acting like they no longer need to give reasons for votes since the hider voted for them. I saw 2 players decide "follow the leader" was the name of the game. afatchic certainly is the town leader at this point and his views should be taken into consideration. This does not mean blindly voting for whoever he does. We should have the luxury of 2 mislynches and with only 5 possible players who could be scum and 2 scum remaining, town has a great chance to win, so it isn't a huge deal. Doesn't mean we shouldn't at least think about it.

Some side thoughts:

If afatchic manages to clear a player tonight (doesn't die), the game is over. If we lynch town, scum have a 50% chance of double killing, but they still narrow choices down to 2 scum out of 3 possible.

If afatchic hides behind scum, it doesn't help us since we won't know who she targeted.
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Post Post #571 (isolation #89) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:16 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:If afatchic hides behind scum, it doesn't help us since we won't know who she targeted.
I plan to tell you who im gonna hide behind.
What do you think of this?:

If we lynch town, you tell who you will hide behind (50% chance of catching scum, then even if they double kill we have 2/3 odds)

If we lynch scum, you don't tell us and you try to clear a townie (would be 25% if trying to catch scum, but a double kill leaves us with 1/3 odds). In this case, I think trying to clear a townie is more productive. If you actually hide behind scum and they kill one of the 3 uncleared townies, it ends up the same as the double kill anyway.
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Post Post #572 (isolation #90) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:16 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

lol...I am dumb...how can you base your decision based on what the lynched alignment comes up since thread will be locked.
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Post Post #574 (isolation #91) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:28 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

I am just trying to think of ways to avoid the guarantee of a double kill and maximize our odds of catching scum.

If a scum player is lynched and scum know where he is hiding, there is a 75% chance he hides behind town and scum takes a double kill. 25% chance she picks scum. In that case, we win obv. I guess maybe that 25% chance of guaranteed victory might be worth a possibility of leaving 33% chance of lynching scum.

If scum is lynched today, we go to 1 scum and 7 town at night. Hiding behind town announced leaves us with 1 scum and 5 town during the day. Mislynch puts us at 1:4. Night kill 1:3 and then we have a final day phase with 1/2 possible players as scum.

OK, I convinced myself. It is worth the shot to try and catch scum. Worst case scenario is we are left at the end game with 1 scum, 3 town and 2 of the town players are confirmed innocent.
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Post Post #575 (isolation #92) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:30 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

While I am at it:

If town is lynched, we are 2 scum 6 town at night. A double kill would put us at 2:4 (3 confirmed) and essentially lylo. We could nl, but a confirmed would be killed and it would be pointless. If he hides behind scum, we get the guaranteed lynch (still 2 night deaths) and finish off at 1:3 again (2 confirmed).
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Post Post #579 (isolation #93) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:33 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:Heres my idea that im having right now, if its flawed someone please tell me. but everyone list there top three suspects out of the 5 uncleared. ill add them up by:
1)+3
2)+2
3)+1
and whoever gets the most points(suspected by the most people) will be who i will check.
I would limit this to the 4 cleared players for the obvious reason that 2 of the uncleared are scum.

Out of the 4 uncleared besides myself, I would put Ortolan as most-likely to be town. Crazy has lurked a good portion of this game. I can't figure out if it is his general lack of interest in forum mafia which he claims or a strategic avoidance. My vote is on Camn, so obviously suspicious of her. Xtoxm, as I said near the end of yesterday, is playing more in line with his scum-meta than his town meta IMO. He did have a 'townie outburst' today, but it doesn't completely eliminate my meta-read.

To rank:

1. Camn - could drop down, but I feel like everybody is ignoring her as a suspect. Could be the posting style of overly joking that has my read on scum.

2. Xtoxm - As I stated, mostly meta-readons. He is generally more decisive and aggressive as town. Post lengths are always consistant, but he tends to make less waves as scum.

3. Crazy - lack of content leads to lack of anything identifiable as a scum action, but the same lack of content is very troublesome.

4. Ortolan - Out of the 4, seems to be the most genuine in his approach to the game so far. While the scum-hunting hasn't been great, I think his early game ideas about the open setup were town motivated and I think he handled Camn's pressure fairly well.
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Post Post #581 (isolation #94) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:37 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

StrangerCoug wrote:bionicchop2, not to draw any heat in my direction, but since when was I cleared?
afatchic wrote:Okay here are my thoughts....
Im the hider. i was going to wait and hope a scum would try to claim it first, but im very impatient and the game has slowed down tonight.
Clears:
Afatchic
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IcemanE
StrangerCoug

Unclear:
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Ortolan
Xtoxm
He hid behind you last night.
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Post Post #584 (isolation #95) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:02 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Xtoxm wrote: Fat, I think you should hide behind no-one, and garantee that we keep two mislynches.
This sounds a little like scum who might be afraid of suspects being narrowed down / scum being figured out.

current - 2:7 - 5 suspects
mislynch - 2:6 - 4 suspects
night kill (no hide) - 2:5 (hider dies) - 4 suspects
mislynch - 2:4 - 3 suspects
night kill - 2:3 - 3 suspects

Even though we have an extra mislynch, the mislynch does not gain us anything. The 2:3 endgame is the same as the 2:4 endgame generated and afatchic hiding functions as a mislynch if she chooses town. The possible benefit of her hiding is to find scum without any doubts.
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Post Post #589 (isolation #96) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:19 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Day 1 posts referencing me:
Xtoxm wrote: I can see PS scum, but Bio looks good to me.
Day 2 posts referencing me:

(after you thought I claimed hider)
Xtoxm wrote:Yay, another game with me OP and Bio being confirmed town :P
Xtoxm wrote: Bio has claimed Hider, clearing me and Camn.
Xtoxm wrote:Read Bio's last post. He had to claim because the risk of being CCed later when he apparantly hid behind the nightkill wasn't worth staying hidden. Not much harm in Hider claiming by this point anyway really, he can just hide at night...
Xtoxm wrote:It sounded an awful lot like you were, Bio.
Xtoxm wrote:Bio N1 was Camn.
Lo and behold after I present you as my 2nd suspect:
Xtoxm wrote:
Then we just lynch Me/Crazy/Bio/Camn.

Infact, Bio's fluff about what you should do at night just looks scum trying to think of a way of giving his team a small chance of being played back into contention, when town can realistically cruise to victory here. I think Bio is scum and realises the chance that Ort-Town being mislynched (which is required for his victory) is near zero.
===========
xtoxm - you never answered my question as to why you voted for crazy today, especially after this post from you earlier in the day:
Xtoxm wrote:I thought Crazy looked better towards the end of yesterday
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Post Post #590 (isolation #97) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:21 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

I don't see why you would push a no-hide here:

If we could 'waste a mislynch' on who he would hide behind, why not just let him hide behind them? It has a chance to 100% nail scum - and if we lynch scum today, it would guarantee a town win. Not hiding leaves an extra possibility for scum to win.
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Post Post #600 (isolation #98) » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:35 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:Im gonna take scenario B.
You are completely wrong on at least half of that scenario, so don't get too locked in to it. I know xtoxm scum very well and I would be shocked if he isn't scum.

Trust me this one day and you can hide behind me tonight. We will both die, but at least I will get some satisfaction if Xtoxm flips scum.
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Post Post #613 (isolation #99) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:00 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

oh. I thought I changed my vote over when I was debating xtoxm. Apparently I did not.

unvote camn ; vote xtoxm
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Post Post #615 (isolation #100) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:40 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote:I think all the confirmed people should wait until all the unconfirmed people place their vote before we hammer.
I would recommend not putting xtoxm at L-1 until afatchic has stated who he will hide behind. He has a tendency to hammer himself regardless of alignment lately.
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Post Post #620 (isolation #101) » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:06 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote: But it could be possible that both of you are town, and that the real scum are going under the radar (i.e. crazy, camn)
I acknowledge that possibility.

Worst case scenario is town lynched, town hidden behind (double kill) and 3 suspects left (2 scum out of those).

Best case is scum lynched and scum hidden behind.

Now if afatchic doesn't announce, scum can choose to just not kill an uncleared (kill someone already hidden behind) and hope he dies behind one of them. That could leave us with 4 suspects (2 scum) and no knowledge of where he hid.
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Post Post #625 (isolation #102) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:11 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

ortolan wrote:ok maybe all the unconfirmed people should say who they'd most like lynched/investigated by the hider and why
Wasn't that accomplished by ranking suspects?
ortolan wrote: I will but I'd firstly like to ask xtoxm/bio for more reasons why each other are scummy.
I just completed a game with him as his scum partner (was not complete until last night). I think I have a decent grasp of his play style and the subtle variations based on his alignment.
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Post Post #627 (isolation #103) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:26 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

You know I usually don't find you scummy mate - even in games when others do. I think the cases on you are normally just convenience cases. If I end up being wrong, I apologize to you in advance.

The main thing I have seen in this game is your lingering vote on Crazy without your usual assertions about the player you are voting for as being scum. You generally are more abrasive as town and more passive as scum from what I have seen.

If I am wrong on you, I think we still have a great chance to win.
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Post Post #629 (isolation #104) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:12 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:@bio -

I think you rely on meta WAYYY too much. You can't automatically rule out someone being scum because you don't find them scummy in other games. That's so flawed.
Playing over 50% of your games with the same player (I have with Xtoxm) you have to be a very bad player to not let meta weigh heavily into your decisions. If a payer shows a tendency to change their play often enough, meta becomes a null tell. If a player has certain habits, those are far more reliable than any static tell which others seem to cling to. In a poker game, if somebody looks away when they have a good hand or bets a certain way when they are bluffing, you note these things and use them in the future. Unfortunately in mafia, you often have to point out what these actions are and it gives the player an opportunity to fix them or use them to manipulate you. Would it be easier for you to accept if I just pointed to xtoxm's short posts of limited content and his OMGUS voting? Those are the things that seem to get him lynched without any consideration when he is town. The fact I know these aren't scum tell for him means I won't ever try to get him lynched with them.

You can look at the game you just modded as an example of meta being reliable if you can find consistencies. We spent like 15 pages discussing the meta of a single action by a player who wasn't even in the game anymore. Once a player becomes aware of their own meta, then it becomes unreliable.
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Post Post #632 (isolation #105) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:09 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:Meta sucks for specifically that reason you mentioned:

If someone does something scummy, it should count as a scumtell, no matter what. If a person consistently does scummy things and it becomes their meta, they should correct their play, because if a person is allowed to get away doing scummy things and someone else is going to toss out anything they do that's scummy, they'll get away that easily.
bio wrote: Once a player becomes aware of their own meta, then it becomes unreliable.
And you just pointed it out to him. So according to yourself, it's unreliable.
1. my task in each game is not to rectify a players meta, it is to determine who scum is.

2. The meta can become unreliable after the point it is made known. All actions prior to that (the entire game) are reliable.
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Post Post #635 (isolation #106) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:10 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote: I Honestly don't want the lynch of xtoxm today, since i have started getting a more town read on him. however if everyone is content on lynching him then i will hide behind crazy. if we can somehow lynch crazy then i will be hiding behind xtoxm.
I am not sure I see a difference between the 2 actions, so I have no problem switching if needed. I see Camn as a more likely partner if xtoxm is scum, so my suspicion of xtoxm puts crazy more on the town side for me. I don't see xtoxm's actions in line with xtoxm/crazy as partners at this time.
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Post Post #638 (isolation #107) » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:38 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Unless ortolan and crazy are both scum, your town reads are off. I know you are assuming I am scum, so that is probably factoring in.
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Post Post #659 (isolation #108) » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:10 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

camn wrote: I like it when scum self-hammer, cuz then I can at least breath a little easier!
When xtoxm self-hammers, you still don't know his alignment until he says it or the mod reveals it.
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Post Post #672 (isolation #109) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:45 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

bad bad bad move scum.

I assume this clears Crazy.

vote camn


3 suspects, 2 scum. pick your poison.

Camn + Ortolan

2 scum, 5 town. If we mislynch, 2 scum 4 town and tomorrow is 2 scum, 3 town. afatchic should NOT hide tonight - meaning no double kill. That guarantees victory by giving us a chance to lynch tomorrow (if you happen to lynch me today)

game, set, match.
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Post Post #673 (isolation #110) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:48 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

bionicchop2 wrote:Camn + Ortolan
EBWOP, this is your scum pair.

Of course, if afatchic did not hide, then we have a different story.
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Post Post #675 (isolation #111) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:14 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

The only question is if he actually hid or not. On the drive home I was thinking he may have WIFOM'd. By declaring he would definitively hide and who he would hide behind he forced the scum's hand (I thought). I guess he could have not hidden - in which case I would vote Crazy.

If he hid, this game is a slam dunk.
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Post Post #682 (isolation #112) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:28 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

unvote camn,vote crazy


I can't see a reason they wouldn't target him (hence the surprise to start the day).

I still think camn is partner. If crazy is scum, at least one town figured out you probably WIFOM'd, so not sure why you make the conclusion one of Ort/myself has to be a partner.
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Post Post #683 (isolation #113) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:31 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

That is L-1. Hold the hammer. I was reading on my phone and missed Ort's vote. Thought I accidentally hammered.
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Post Post #685 (isolation #114) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:38 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

we should have 7 left. the problem is that if you die tonight, we don't know who you hid behind. if crazy is scum, that leaves 1 scum and 4 town if a double death at night (effectively lylo). I would prefer you just hide behind me and let the town lynch camn tomorrow.

or don't hide, we lynch camn, then if needed Ort and I can slug it out at end game.
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Post Post #687 (isolation #115) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:54 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

I said to hide behind me because it is better than hiding unannounced. I would vote for a no hide tonight.
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Post Post #691 (isolation #116) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:04 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:I said to hide behind me because it is better than hiding unannounced. I would vote for a no hide tonight.
how would that be better than an unannounced hide?
If you die unannounced, we gain nothing and we don't get to have a mislynch. If you hide behind me and we both die, you eliminate a suspect.
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Post Post #692 (isolation #117) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:04 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

orangepenguin wrote:I have a bad feeling about bio..
I have a good feeling about bio...
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Post Post #695 (isolation #118) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:16 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:
afatchic wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:I said to hide behind me because it is better than hiding unannounced. I would vote for a no hide tonight.
how would that be better than an unannounced hide?
If you die unannounced, we gain nothing and we don't get to have a mislynch. If you hide behind me and we both die, you eliminate a suspect.
I eliminate a suspect.... WHO WOULD THEN BE DEAD LOL.
now how does that seem helpful? we trade our mislynch in order to eliminate a suspect?
IF YOU HIDE UNANNOUNCED AND DIE WE HAVE THE SAME SUSPECTS AND 2 DEATHS.

Then we have 3 UNCLEARED players alive and ONE LYNCH to use.

If you die and I die, there are 2 UNCLEARED with ONE LYNCH.

It is simple end game logic and I can't comprehend why it isn't this clear to everybody.

If you don't hide, then we have 3 uncleared with 2 lynches to use (my preference).

What doesn't make sense about that? Do I need to make a list of all players in all 3 scenarios with players crossed out to make it clearer?
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Post Post #696 (isolation #119) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:20 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

icemanE wrote:Here's the thing:

This is all hinging on crazy being scum. Here is what I propose:

If crazy IS scum, fat hides behind bio. If bio is scum, we win. If he's not, we have a good chance of winning the next day.

If crazy ISN'T scum, fat hides behind another one of the unconfirmed, whomever he chooses. At this stage I don't know why it wouldn't make sense not to hide - and fat hiding unannounced (since he'll most likely be the NK anyways) means the scum won't know what to expect.

If there's a hole in this plan (which I don't doubt that there is), inform me.
Gently, I'm so sensitive...
HOLE: crazy turns town (2 scum 4 town left). afatchic doesn't announce hide (or announces - doesn't matter). afatchic dies (2 scum 3 town). scum kills any player (2 scum 2 town). Scum win before day fall if there is a double kill at night and crazy is town.
If crazy is town, afatchic cannot hide
.

The rest of your post I am fine with. If crazy is scum, hide behind me. Please promise you strongly consider lynching camn tomorrow if that is the case.
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Post Post #697 (isolation #120) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:32 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

[quote="crazy scum, afatchic hides without announcing, afatchic dies]
afatchic

bionicchop2
camn
icemanE

orangepenguin
ortolan[/quote]

icemanE and OP are interchangeable here as confirmed town. Left with 4 players. 1 scum, 3 town, 3 suspects. 33% chance of lynching scum randomly. One lynch to use before game ends.

[quote="crazy scum, afatchic doesn't hide]
afatchic

bionicchop2
camn
icemanE
orangepenguin
ortolan[/quote]

Let's assume afatchic gets killed in this scenario, but any of the cleared could be killed. 1 scum left. 4 town. 3 suspects. 33% chance (1/3) tomorrow and 50% chance the following day (1/2) with 2 lynched to use. 66% chance to catch scum randomly.

[quote="crazy scum, afatchic hides behind BC2, both die]
afatchic

bionicchop2

camn
icemanE
orangepenguin
ortolan[/quote]

Left with 4 players. 1 scum, 3 town, 2 suspects. 50% chance of lynching scum randomly. One lynch to use before game ends.


Hiding behind me and you dying while I live is an obvious victory. Statistically a no-hide gives the town the best odds based on lynches, but effectively an announced hide counts in the same manner.

An unannounced hide in which afatchic lives gives the town certain victory. The gamble leaves a wide variance though because there is 33% chance she dies.
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Post Post #698 (isolation #121) » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:33 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

mod
please replace my last post with this (or delete this and fix my quote tages. Thanks.

=====================
crazy scum, afatchic hides without announcing, afatchic dies wrote: afatchic
bionicchop2
camn
icemanE
orangepenguin
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icemanE and OP are interchangeable here as confirmed town. Left with 4 players. 1 scum, 3 town, 3 suspects. 33% chance of lynching scum randomly. One lynch to use before game ends.
crazy scum, afatchic doesn't hide wrote: afatchic
bionicchop2
camn
icemanE
orangepenguin
ortolan
Let's assume afatchic gets killed in this scenario, but any of the cleared could be killed. 1 scum left. 4 town. 3 suspects. 33% chance (1/3) tomorrow and 50% chance the following day (1/2) with 2 lynched to use. 66% chance to catch scum randomly.
crazy scum, afatchic hides behind BC2, both die wrote: afatchic
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orangepenguin
ortolan
Left with 4 players. 1 scum, 3 town, 2 suspects. 50% chance of lynching scum randomly. One lynch to use before game ends.


Hiding behind me and you dying while I live is an obvious victory. Statistically a no-hide gives the town the best odds based on lynches, but effectively an announced hide counts in the same manner.

An unannounced hide in which afatchic lives gives the town certain victory. The gamble leaves a wide variance though because there is 33% chance she dies.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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bionicchop2
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Post Post #703 (isolation #122) » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:28 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

Camn - if Crazy is scum, do you volunteer to get hidden behind tonight?

I think one of us needs to be hidden behind since we are both each other's top suspect for partner if crazy is scum. If crazy is town, then you are definite scum.

Since Ortolan is the least suspected out of the 3, it seems to be a poor choice in hides since it leaves the 2 who are most suspected in a lylo situation. If Crazy is scum, I would prefer to be hidden behind and killed at night than lynched during lylo. Since OP has already stated he doesn't feel good about me, that puts me in a situation where I will be fighting from behind. I would rather sacrifice myself at night in the hopes that my death and reveal as town can persuade the remaining town to lynch Camn.

Part of my concern is that I have obviously defended Crazy a few times in this game. If he is scum, that is going to be hard for town to overlook, so this is my plea to have some way of having my suspect looked into - either through hiding behind them or through my death and their lynch.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #709 (isolation #123) » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:38 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Is Ort your final hiding choice?

Just remember not to hide if Crazy is town.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #714 (isolation #124) » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:08 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

Well, I will be V/LA all next week, so hopefully we don't have a tight deadline.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #724 (isolation #125) » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:17 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

so afatchic didn't hide I presume. Nice job getting an uncleared killed though.

5 alive, 1 scum. I obviously know Camn is scum. Either way, town wins since there are 3 cleared alive and 2 uncleared with 2 available lynches.

Afatchic - if you guys lynch me, obviously don't hide tonight. I get on a plane in the morning and won't be checking in much at all next week. No need for debates, just lynch us in whichever order you want.

vote camn


Game MVP to afatchic for WIFOMing the hell out of scum and directing their kills the past 2 nights.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #742 (isolation #126) » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:12 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

gg everybody. I played poorly IMO. I was right on Camn all game, but wrong on pretty much everything else.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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