Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703
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So is this some kind of commonly used setup or did Crazy come up with this setup?
If it is a commonly used setup, anybody have any links to previous games?
I don't think a night start game really calls for a random voting phase since we already have information to start from (and in this instance we kind of had random voting already).The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Night start is good for town IMO (sucks for first killed) since we start with odd numbers. I hate that normal minis start with even numbers for simple math reasons.Xtoxm wrote:What is the point of this being Night start?
All it is is Mafia get pot luck on whether or not they remove a power role.
Vote Crazy
Still think only a maf would know that.
With 2 watchers, mafia also runs a very high risk of getting caught on n1.
Also, Crazy voted for this setup in the Open Setup nomination thread where it is shown as a night start (see my quote of Adel). Anybody who read that thread (and especially anybody who voted for it) would know it was a night start. Knowing Crazy a little bit (more from Epic Mafia than games here), I know he is rather particular about setups.
He could be scum, but that reason is a poor one.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Yes, I am defending Crazy from this particular argument. I make it a habit to counter any poor argument against any player. Even if I find the player being attacked to be scummy, I will point out flawed arguments against them.camn wrote: @Bionic, You seem to be defending Crazy. Are you?
The argument that mafia would know the game is a night start while town would not is extremely flawed. All role PMs are posted at the opening of the game and none indicate the game would be a night start.
The setup of open games is very critical and understanding them is very important. Who designed it wasn't particularly important except when I didn't know how Crazy would have assumed it was night start. I thought maybe he designed the game setup. I found out he didn't, so I figured I may as well post that here along with the other information I found (Crazy voted for the setup shortly after the idea was posted).camn wrote: Also.. why such concern about the setup? How does it help to know if it has been played before? And who designed it...?
Knowing if it has been played before would give me a game to read. By reading a game of the same setup, I would be able to see how early certain roles claimed and what methods were most effective in finding scum. With watchers, you can have roles claim and then bait the scum into killing them:
example - role cop claims and watchers watch (better if 2 watchers exist). If the RC lives, the watchers know the other watcher. If the RC dies, the watchers know 1 scum + the other watcher. If the RC dies, you can then do a 'watcher claim' where every player says 2 people who visited the dead player (this is so scum can't fake to be a watcher).
Now, I don't know how effective such an approach might be, which is why I wanted to read any previous games of this setup.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Nothing is wrong with it. I thought the night start gave us the jump start we needed plus there was some random voting prior to the night actually starting. Add to that Xtoxm had already moved into a real vote before the night started and it seems silly to revert to random. Random is only a filler until something better comes along to discuss. There is no reason IMO to prolong the stage if the game has naturally progressed into actual game play.icemanE wrote:Personally I don't see what's wrong with a RV stage in an open setupThe above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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The bolded part is what I consider the norm for a hider. The mod will need to clarify. All talks about announcing who the hider hides behind won't get us anywhere. If the mafia knows where the hider hides, they can get 2 kills in one night.wiki wrote:The Hider has the ability to target one player each night. If that player is pro-town, the hider is protected from Night-Kills that night.If the player targeted is killed that same night, the Hider dies too.If the player targeted is Mafia, the hider usually dies.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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This actually doesn't sound bad. We may need to think about this further.afatchic wrote:okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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There are many ways to manipulate the mafia if town fake claims properly. This is the most effective use of the hider role IMO. If one person has 2 people 'hiding' behind them, then the watcher could also watch that person and catch mafia trying to pick off the double kill. Also, if hider dies (non-double kill) we have 1 mafia with no argument on who it is (whoever hider targeted).The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Ok, so let's run this past me again. Essentially, every person says whom they would hide behind if they were the real hider. Then... what? We let mafia choose the person to kill that would most likely result in a double nightkill?
Planfail.
vote TCSfor now, since this plan is obviously a solid approach.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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I think the consensus is that a hypoclaim is the best option here.
I think this option is very pro-town, so I am going to start a popcorn style hypo claim. Nobody has to follow obviously, but I am not one to sit around and wait for others to act.
If I am hider, I will target Xtoxm. I almost want to target afatchic because more coverage would be provided, but I will stick with Xtoxm.
I choose camn to go next.
If everybody could quote the hypoclaim and add theirs, it would help. I would also say that anybody can change their hypoclaim at any time once we get the first pass done (may change their mind and find a better option). Just quote to last one and edit yours.hypoclaim wrote: bionicchop2--->Xtoxm
The reason I want to move this along is so we can use the rest of the day period scum hunting. It is easy for scum to blend in with strategy talk once a consensus is reached. They can easily just agree that the action is pro-town. For that reason,unvote TCS. My vote was a reaction to his disagreement with the strategy. In hindsight, this does not make him any more likely to be scum and may actually make him less likely to be scum.
On the flip side of that, I willvote icemanEfor following me on that vote. I remember from my only other open game played (polygamist - xtoxm will remember, will link if needed) that scum jumped on me and my town lover twisting our statements to seem like we were against the pro-town course of action decided on. Nothing concrete here, but this vote is better than my previous one.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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You are still forgetting about the remaining watcher - so mafia needs to be cautious about who will be watched.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
Am I missing something? We are essentially gambling for a 30% chance of getting an investigation in exchange for a townie death, while increasing from 12.5% to the mafia's odds of getting a double kill with no town upside.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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I don't understand what you are saying. If mafia targets the hider directly, the result is a no kill unless the hider did not hide. The only way the hider dies when hiding is by hiding behind mafia or the person they hid behind is shot.icemanE wrote:My main concern with the plan is that, if the mafia luck out and hit the hider on their own, we might make the mistake of assuming that the hider hid behind mafia and lynch someone based on their hypoclaim - that could be a problem, now that I think of it.
Once dead, we look at who the hider hid behind the night before. If it matches the other player who died that day, then they obviously did not hide behind mafia. If the player they hid behind is alive, that player is mafia.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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No.icemanE wrote: To clear it up - If the mafia target the hider, it will kill whomever the hider hid behind instead of the hider?
If mafia (X) targets hider (A) and hider is behind another player (B), it looks like this:
Code: Select all
X ------------------------ BA
Result = no death
If mafia (X) targets player (B) and hider (A) is behind player (B), it looks like this:
Code: Select all
X ----------------BA---
Result = bullet goes through both.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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afatchic wrote:camn how do i make the list and i will do it myself, just don't have any idea how to.Code: Select all
[quote="hypoclaim n1"] Text [/quote]
If I get a chance, I will gather all the info up, but probably not tonight. somebody else may get to it first.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Looks like we are still waiting on Panda stomper to finish out the hypoclaim.
I agree that ortolan's first few posts about the roles were a little role fishy upon first read. I would say it is worth note, but definitely not worth getting distracted by. Both sides have made their point about it and everybody can form their own opinions.
I would need to see other scummy actions before calling him scum for it, since scum are generally cautious about saying anything that sounds like role fishing (not to say they won't).The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Reason for vote on TCS - to see who the first player to overreact would be. icemanE stepped into that one nicely. I gave an intentionally easy target for scum to pounce on and point fingers.wiki wrote:Common Tells
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This information is probably out of date, and needs to be edited by someone who knows what has happened since early 2005.
Reason for vote on icemanE - see reason for vote on TCS. icemanE comes in and uses outdated wiki material on tells that are no longer valid. Add to this I was the first person to vote TCS, changed my opinion and then voted iceman when he voted for TCS.
1. I haven't seen any solid evidence that OMGUS is a current and legit scum tell.wikiOMGUS wrote:Occasionallya Scum player will use it to cover a strategic vote, feigning outrage to get someone else closer to a lynch.
2. My vote has been on icemanE for the past week, taken off temporarily to see who would react to my bandwagon vote. I have stated my suspicions of him prior to any FOS on his part.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Provide one example of scum voting for a town person, not giving any reason for voting and it is clear that the vote was a direct result of the other person voting for them. OMGUS can only be used if you can prove that no reason was given for the vote (otherwise the term doesn't exist). If you can prove a vote had no valid reason behind it, that is scummy on its own and the fact the other person voted for them is inconsequential. All the term does (and the scumminess associated with it) is make players hesitant to vote anybody who votes for them or is suspicious of them.StrangerCoug wrote:
Voting someone solely for voting you, which is the basic form of OMGUS, is indeed a scumtell, and you proposing otherwise does nothing to help your town image. In fact, it hurts it. HoS stands, but I'm debating whether this warrants a vote.bionicchop2 wrote:1. I haven't seen any solid evidence that OMGUS is a current and legit scum tell.
Now, iceman and yourself have both applied the term to me. You made an assumption I only voted him because he FOS'd me. Now, if OMGUS is such a clear scum tell, explain how my vote on iceman (which made me look suspicious by being intentionally vague) would advance a scum agenda of not getting myself lynched and getting an innocent town player lynched.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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The overreaction was pretending like the 2 votes in question weren't blatantly obvious in their bandwagon for the sake of bandwagon nature.The Central Scrutinizer wrote: I don't think I'd characterize playing off of the wiki as an "overreaction." While I think I understand the content of your bone with Iceman, I don't like how you played this.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Neither are universal. It isn't the action which makes a person scummy, but the intent. The challenge in scum hunting comes from determining the root reasoning behind every action and not the reasoning which the player gives readily (in the case of a town player, the reason they give typically matches the reason for the action).The Central Scrutinizer wrote: A question Which do you generally find more likely for scum to do--start a wagon or hop onto one?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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1. That is not an example since you do not know my alignment (unless you are scum which would make it an even worse example since you know I am town).StrangerCoug wrote:
Post #159 before you even bothered with #165.bionicchop2 wrote:Provide one example of scum voting for a town person, not giving any reason for voting and it is clear that the vote was a direct result of the other person voting for them.
2. icemanE never voted for me
That is kind of my point. The lack of reasoning is the root problem and the fact the other person voted is irrelevant. This is turning into theory debate though and I don't care to try and convince you of this point.StrangerCoug wrote:
If you have a valid reason to vote back, then OMGUS does not happen. If I see someone make a crap case on me and vote me for it, I will attack the case and vote back.bionicchop2 wrote:OMGUS can only be used if you can prove that no reason was given for the vote (otherwise the term doesn't exist). If you can prove a vote had no valid reason behind it, that is scummy on its own and the fact the other person voted for them is inconsequential. All the term does (and the scumminess associated with it) is make players hesitant to vote anybody who votes for them or is suspicious of them.
I see a vote and expect to find a reasoning for it in that post, or failing that, for the vote post to tell me to go look at a specific post for it. You did not vote icemanE and tell us that you were voting him for the same reasons as your vote on The Central Scrutinizer in the same post—you waited until a later post. It gives the same vibes as "vote: bionicchop2. I'll tell you why later." Were your vote and your reason (or a reference to it) in the same place, I would not have HoS'd you.[/quote]bionicchop2 wrote:Now, iceman and yourself have both applied the term to me. You made an assumption I only voted him because he FOS'd me. Now, if OMGUS is such a clear scum tell, explain how my vote on iceman (which made me look suspicious by being intentionally vague) would advance a scum agenda of not getting myself lynched and getting an innocent town player lynched.
I don't think the timing of revealing reasons matters as long as the reasons are there. If you had asked me for a reason and I had refused to answer, it would be one thing. I do want to be clear, I don't think you were necessarily wrong to question me for what I did. I just think some of your assertions about what is definitively scummy are wrong.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Never say never. I am not overly concerned about getting pressure placed on me. icemanE may be an overeager townie or he may be scum, but now I at least have a lead on where to start looking. Previously I didn't have much and the conversation was a little slow (hence the deadline was set).afatchic wrote:
Never do this. setting a trap, normally always catches you. unless you are a mason, in which case you have other proof that you are townie, it normally gets more pressure on you then the person jumping on you. also a lot of times the first person to jump on you is an over eager townie, rather than an opportunistic scum.bionicchop2 wrote:
Reason for vote on TCS - to see who the first player to overreact would be. icemanE stepped into that one nicely. I gave an intentionally easy target for scum to pounce on and point fingers.
The first 6-7 pages really haven't given me much yet. The 2nd read didn't do anything to change that. I think that information will be useful in upcoming days for clearing people, but nothing as far as scum hunting. I am in favor of strategy discussions on d1 of open games, so I am not going to criticize others for it.afatchic wrote: also you voted with the promise of a reread and more thought.... hows that coming?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Specifically that the one you chose hasn't been valid in any games I have played. Others in that list also are irrelevant now. The list was made in 2004 and players have adapted over the course of the last 4 years.icemanE wrote:Are you kidding or something, bio? You're attempting to defend your actions by saying that, since someone wrote on the wiki that it's "probably out of date", that those things are no longer scumtells?
icemanE wrote: That voting without reason isn't scummy no matter whether the wiki says so or not?
Sarcastically criticizing my general ability to play mafia really isn't super productive. Focus on the game content please.icemanE wrote: Bio's a pro guys, don't forget it.
How can I not say it when I intentionally did not post my reason for voting you when I did?icemanE wrote: How can you say your vote on me was "intentionally vague"?
I was seeing if your response would match my assumption of what your response would be. It did. You are playing by the textbook, so I figured I would do something else which is mentioned on the page and I don't agree with. Now I need to decide (as afatchic kind of pointed out) if you are an eager townie assuming the wiki tells are true and thinking you are on to something, or scum using an appeal to authority to plant seeds of suspicion. If I decide you are probably townie, then I can look at how other people responded to our interactions.icemanE wrote: What did you hope to accomplish with its being vague? In short, what was your "intent"?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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So, in the same breathe you admit the tell is not reliable, yet hold firm that in this case it is? That is kind of a relativist fallacy there. You think I slipped when I voted in the 4th spot? What advantage did I gain by jumping in the 4th spot?icemanE wrote:
You're correct there - as a general trend, scum have probably become more aware of what not to do over the years based at least in part on what the wiki says - they can see what they're not expected to do. However, from my experience, scum do tend to slip nicely and easily onto a wagon while it's forming more often than they start their own wagons. Is this to say that every time someone joins a wagon third or fourth, they're automatically scum? No. In fact, it's not even scummy much of the time. However, when two players join a wagon third and fourth and provide no substantive reasons for doing so... that IS scummy.bio wrote: Specifically that the one you chose hasn't been valid in any games I have played. Others in that list also are irrelevant now. The list was made in 2004 and players have adapted over the course of the last 4 years.
Since you were pulling directly from unreliable tells, I assumed you would try to say my vote was OMGUS (even though you never even voted for me).icemanE wrote:
Might I ask where this assumption came from?bio wrote: I was seeing if your response would match my assumption of what your response would be. It did.
You contradict yourself. You say it was successful, but it was also flawed. I don't see how it was 'successful' if it lead to a lynch of a town player and I also don't see how you can relate self-voting to bandwagoning.icemanE wrote: PS - I've only seen a player successfully pull off a move like this once - it was vollkan in a game that's currently ongoing, so I can't get too into the details, but he self-voted to draw attention to himself - I pressed him incredibly hard for it, and he claimed that was his whole reason for self-voting, to get people to press him. I wound up being lynched for it - I was a townie. Granted, there were many other reasons I was lynched - my flavor was misleading in that game - but what I'm saying is, challenging someone for self-voting OR for voting without reason is NOT something only scum do, so your experiment (and vollkan's) are flawed in nature.
I didn't say you were a textbook player, but you are playing by the textbook in this game. You are using information which is not reliable and applying it to justify a FoS/vote.icemanE wrote:
I think if you read a few of my games you'll quickly realize that I'm anything but a textbook player. Check out high school mafia or Meatworldish mafia if you feel like you need proof of that. I only reference and quote the wiki when I see something that makes me think "Oh yeah, that's in the wiki", or when it just makes more sense to quote it than not.bio wrote: You are playing by the textbook, so I figured I would do something else which is mentioned on the page and I don't agree with. Now I need to decide (as afatchic kind of pointed out) if you are an eager townie assuming the wiki tells are true and thinking you are on to something, or scum using an appeal to authority to plant seeds of suspicion. If I decide you are probably townie, then I can look at how other people responded to our interactions.
I 'buddied up' to the idea. I couldn't care less whose name was attached to it. The idea was good. Both scum and town can agree to a pro-town idea.icemanE wrote: @ Fat - Yeah, buddying up is definitely common scum. If that's what YOU think is happening here, I'm assuming your view is also that bio is the scum and you're the townie. Is that the case, or are you simply saying it happens?
Please identify what I have done 'over the course of the game' so I can respond to it.icemanE wrote: TCS - his reasoning in post 192 are pretty weak. It looks like pretty lazy justification for what he's done over the course of the game.
Remember when you added OMGUS to your short list of scummy actions I did? This is where pot meets kettle and admits to him that OMGUS is just a red herring. Since all of your few reasons listed why I am scum are null tells, your vote is left with only my vote preceding it and no valid reason associated.icemanE wrote: At the moment I'm going tounvoteas I feel that fat has played well and brought up good points - that, and I still can't see anything anti-town or pro-scum about the hypo plan. I'm going to switch over tovote: biofor that nonsense scheme he cooked up.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Please identify how it is inaccurate. Somebody has to be in the 3rd and 4th spot. If previously it had been scum a large number of times and players adapt as they become aware of the wiki, then gradually the number of scum in those spots would reduce. I think 4 years is enough for that change to be significant. Now, the fact I knew exactly where to find the tell you mentioned without you linking the wiki and which section it is would imply I have a fairly decent knowledge of the wiki contents.icemanE wrote:
No, that's inaccurate.bio wrote: So, in the same breathe you admit the tell is not reliable, yet hold firm that in this case it is? That is kind of a relativist fallacy there.
icemanE wrote:
An easily joined wagon. You didn't start it, so you didn't need a case - you didn't second it, so you didn't have to explain why you agree or disagree - and you didn't finish it. You're a face in the crowd, which is awfully nice for scum.bio wrote: You think I slipped when I voted in the 4th spot? What advantage did I gain by jumping in the 4th spot?
So if a townie was lynched and I was in the 2nd spot without a reason to vote, it would be ok? I also can't really be a face in the crowd unless the wagon is completed behind me culminating in a lynch. As it stood, I was just dangling off the end of a wagon as plain as day.
I don't have a master plan. I was looking for a good starting point. It started with your initial reaction and continues with our discussion. I am sure mockery of others (you seem to include a nice jab at me in every post) is a less effective form of scum hunting than whatever method I choose.icemanE wrote:
Wait - so your master plan for catching scum was based on someone calling you out for what appeared to be an OMGUS vote? Wow, that's foolproof!bio wrote: Since you were pulling directly from unreliable tells, I assumed you would try to say my vote was OMGUS (even though you never even voted for me).
If his aim was to get a townie lynched, then he is scum. If his aim was to find someone suspicious and you acted suspicious, then it is more a case of you being unsuccessful at being town.icemanE wrote:
He succeeded in his aim, which was to get me lynched. I didn't relate self-voting and bandwagoning - I said the two of you set up the same trap. You both did something to appear scummy and then called people out for mentioning it.Bio wrote: You contradict yourself. You say it was successful, but it was also flawed. I don't see how it was 'successful' if it lead to a lynch of a town player and I also don't see how you can relate self-voting to bandwagoning.
Yes. In this game you are/were. Other games don't matter. Your general play across the site may not be textbook, but that is where you were pulling your scum tells from in this game.icemanE wrote:
Typically when people say you're doing things by the textbook, they mean you're doing precisely the right thing as ordered.bio wrote: I didn't say you were a textbook player, but you are playing by the textbook in this game. You are using information which is not reliable and applying it to justify a FoS/vote.
I misread the TCS one, but this one was about me - even if directed to somebody else.icemanE wrote:
That was addressed to fat, hence the paragraph beings with: @Fat.bio wrote: I 'buddied up' to the idea. I couldn't care less whose name was attached to it. The idea was good. Both scum and town can agree to a pro-town idea.
And my vote on you originated in post 76 which had my initial reasons for voting you. Those reasons do not go away because I unvoted for a short period of time. All I am doing is showing you the 'OMGUS' tag you chose to put on me is inaccurate and misleading.icemanE wrote: First off, when I originally voted fat, I had a whole paragraph about why I was doing it, and it ended with this:
If I could have just voted for both of you, I would have. As it were, if you read the paragraph you'll realize I said no more about fat than I did about you - my reasons for both of you were exactly the same, and as such my vote and FoS were interchangeable.I wrote:So, with that in mind, I'm going to unvote - vote: afatchic and FoS: bio while I do a readthrough (and perhaps a PBPA, if I find it necessary) on the two of them.
If both scum and town are equally likely to do something, then it is by definition a null tell. You have accused me of 2 things - voting 4th and OMGUS. For every 1 time you see scum do this (proven scum, not me who you just accuse of being scum) I will find multiple town players who have done the same.icemanE wrote: And what I said weren't nulltells.
Replace 'easily interpretable' with 'easily frameable' and you might be close. The real information comes once we get this deep into the conversation and you can find no additional reasons for your vote (and preceding FOS) outside of the antiquated scum tell you started with.icemanE wrote: Your plan is just stupid, if nothing else, it yields at very best a nulltell, which is "you accused me of being scummy for doing something easily interpretable as scummy. You must be scum".
How does me having sense play into this (or do you just choose to try and shift my perceived abilities into the negative range so people will dismiss my arguments - seems to be common in your posts)? If you think I have no sense and you are town, then I have to be town making poor choices. If I was scum and you were town, I would be knowingly trying to get a town player lynched and be perfectly sensible in doing such.icemanE wrote: Come on bio, get some sense.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Lurker comment (as you can see from my sig, I have an opinion on them).
If you are going to vote one, it should be Crazy since he is at least active on the site. Panda made his last post on the site in this game and only posted 7 times on the site as a whole (6 in this game). He isn't 'lurking', he just obviously is not playing mafia on this site.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Please identify all 'several' of his good points.The Central Scrutinizer wrote: Also,vote:bionicchip2, because I think Iceman makes several good points... I especially liked "so your master plan was to catch whoever accused you of OMGUS?"
wrong. It is the duty of town to look for scum based on current meta and their understanding of the individuals involved instead of trying to apply universal scum tells. Iceman is modding a game I am playing. He knows my alignment there and can easily get a grasp of how I play.The Central Scrutinizer wrote: We must remember that if we consider the current meta to be ahead of the wiki because of common reference to the wiki, it is the duty of town not to do things on the wiki... right?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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I don't do homework for other students. Some people made some posts. Some people made some responses. It is your job to interpret them. If you want my full summary of the game.Haschel Cedricson wrote:Greetings, everyone.
Before I read this game, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
Just kidding. I have written a synopsis of my thoughts here. Enjoy.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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I'll accept whatever offer you are putting on the table.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
So... what's the over/under on those being his scum partners?Haschel Cedricson wrote:Greetings, everyone.
Before I read this game, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
Welcome to the game, HC.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Then you can read and make your own. I am not your puppet. 10 pages is about 30 minutes of your time.Haschel Cedricson wrote:
I just want the main bullet points.bionicchop2 wrote:I don't do homework for other students. Some people made some posts. Some people made some responses. It is your job to interpret them. If you want my full summary of the game.
Just kidding. I have written a synopsis of my thoughts here. Enjoy.
If you have any direct questions, I will answer them, but I will not summarize the game for you. I expect all players to read the game in its entirety.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Your 'reasons' can only be random, because:Haschel Cedricson wrote: I'll gladly share my reasons for asking those specific players. After, of course, ortolan gives a summary.
.Haschel Cedricson wrote:Before I read this game, I want bionicchop2 and ortolan to give me a summary of the game so far.
If you haven't read the game yet, there can be no specific reason to select any 2 players.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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You coming in and being bossy. I am currently wondering about your motivation.Haschel Cedricson wrote:What significant events stand out in your mind when you think about the game?
The rest of my thoughts took 39 posts to compose and I have no desire to whittle them down into a nice little package.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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It isn't happening. Make your point. The next request for me to make a summary will just be spam and won't get a response.Haschel Cedricson wrote:EBWOP: I am NOT asking you to whittle down your posts. In fact, if your summary was from memory that would be even better.
FOS Haschelwho is now a very close 2nd on my suspect list.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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@ haschel - I am satisfied with your follow ups to your summary requests. For now I believe it was genuine scum hunting. I think it is flawed, but all scum hunting is flawed at least a little.
There is a decent case behind this OP wagon. Going to hold my vote on icemanE a little longer, but there doesn't seem to be anybody agreeing with me ATM.
@crazy - really need more participation from you. I don't remember you being this inactive last time we played in the same game. For someone who really liked the setup, you don't seem to be paying attention to it.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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I think Xtoxm is playing his standard game and Ice is scum (only posted as certainty for added drama). When Xtoxm says he doesn't like a wagon, it translates to me that he thinks the player is town.camn wrote:
Now Bio, what do you think about X and Ice's posts?
The one thing going for iceman in this case is he hasn't taken any opportunity to jump on either of the 2 larger wagons. Could possibly be a case of a town player who thinks they are correct.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Here is my opinion: If you are saying you are a power role, I think you leave it at that - but you need to say it definitively. At least that would leave some WIFOM for scum - not knowing if they need to target you directly. If you are hider, they miss. If you are watcher, you can watch the person you said you would hide behind - again to WIFOM an prevent them targeting for the double kill.orangepenguin wrote:If after I post it, people are still not convinced, I will claim my role, even though I rather wouldn't day 1.
So, I guess just knowing power / vanilla is better than knowing the exact role at this stage of the game.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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1. Record means nothing. I am 2-7 as town (0-1 as scum) at this point and it won't slow me down one bit.orangepenguin wrote: Well, I am a power. I'll go with your advice, and leave it at that.
Of course, with my record and everything, I doubt anyone believes me anyways at this point.
2. I actually believe you.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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(for reference)
=============================Jex wrote:Vote Count
2 - The Central Scrutinizer (Haschel Cedricson, ortolan)
1 - orangepenguin (The Central Scrutinizer)
1 - camn (Crazy)
1 - bionicchop2 (icemanE)
1 - Crazy (Xtoxm)
1 - icemanE (bionicchop2)
1 - Ortolan (orangepenguin)
Not Voting
camn, afatchic, StrangerCoug
It takes 6 votes to lynch
Deadline is Dec 5th
OK, some slightly odd stuff going on.
How have you reduced the scum hunt to TCS vs. Ort? Look at the previous vote count and it is obvious we have not narrowed it down to just one of those two. You make it look as if you are restricted to 2 options and are simply eliminating the one you feel is least likely yo be scum. You also push the deadline as your excuse if you are wrong. We have 3 full days to make a decision. Maybe it is lingering suspicion from your "arrggh I am so angry at Panda for lurking" act, but I have had a real bad read on you for a good portion of the game.camn wrote:
Plus, in the TCS vs. Ort deal.. I think TCS has brought better analysis, and is thus more USEFUL to the town.. . but this could change.
DO I think either are 100% scum? No. But the deadline is coming fast... we need to accelerate some stuff here!
unvote icemanE;vote Camn
===============================
Could you explain this process to me? In order to make a reductive conclusion based off of P1, you need to have confirmation P1 is true. I am not sure what you are really trying to say here.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:So yeah... unvote, vote: Haschel Cedricson
P1: One of orangepenguin or Haschel Cedricson is scum.
P2: Orange penguin is not scum.
Ergo, HC is scum.
==============================
hypoclaim n1
bionicchop2--->camn
camn---------->Bionic
TCS------------->Crazy
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->icemanE
orangepenguin-->Xtoxm
Xtoxm------------>camn
icemanE------->afatchic
Crazy-------->Haschel Cedricson
ortolan-------->Bionic
hypoclaim n2
bionicchop2---->XtoxmHaschel Cedricson
camn------------>afatchic
TCS------------->Haschel Cedricson
StrangerCoug--->orangepenguin
afatchic--------->StrangerCoug
orangepenguin-->ortolan
Xtoxm--------->icemanE
icemanE----->StrangerCoug
Crazy--------->TCS
ortolan--------->camn
I had previously changed my choice for tonight (Xtoxm feels slightly off his town meta, but I need a closer read on that). Haschel's choices need to be added to the list.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Which came from this:camn wrote:
This is where it came from, Bionic.afatchic wrote: What makes you think that TCS is more pro-town than ortolan?
camn wrote:I I would rather see the Central Scrutinizer live than this guy.
Why did you leave that out of the quote when you quoted afatchic? The choice of TCS or Ortolan came from you, afatchic only questioned you on your preference of one over the other.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Camn - you can see from my vote how easy it is to make a conscious decision to not just settle on somebody at the top of the list because of a deadline. I do not feel strongly enough about either of the 2 players who had 2 votes (TCS, Ort), so I voted someone who I had a strong feeling about. Maybe you did the same, but you built the deadline into your reasoning and implied you were not looking at other players.
My reasons I don't buy into either of the other 2 is they both appear to be easy targets:
- TCS can be found making posts with unsound logic in many games. I misread him as scum in my one prior game with him. He may be scum, but there is no convincing case of it. Right now I see him as a convenient place for scum votes (not to say all voting him are scum).
- Ort is obviously a newer player. He is being voted mostly for role speculation and 'fishing'. Some of my earlier posts were about role speculation, including thoughts about watcher claims (I dismissed these, but still discussed them). Nobody jumped on me for it. My guess is because I am a more active player and have shown an ability to stand up for myself when under direct questioning.
Side note - has anybody seen iceman around?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Could you clarify what you agree with. My post addressed a few points. One of them was that I don't think Ort is scummy for his actions. If you blanket an 'I agree' over my post, you seem to be agreeing with my opinion of ortolan, which is not supported by your vote on him.camn wrote:I agree, Bionic.
Who else are you suspicious of?The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Take one second to think about how flawed your FoS is here.The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Also...fos: bionic.
In this hypoclaim strategy, it would ultimately behoove the hider to hide behind scum.
1. If I am actually the hider, you are suspicious of a town power role for how I choose to use the role (doesn't make e less town). Whether you agree with a hider's choice or not does not make them mafia.
2. If I a not hider, my choice can neither clear a town player nor condemn a scum player. To FoS e in this case for not trying to catch mafia with an ability I don't have akes little sense.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Question for TCS, Xtoxm and icemanE -
Would you consider moving your vote at deadline to another player who has more than just your vote? If so, who would it be?
To answer my own question, if deadline was in a few hours and Camn was not looking like she would be lynched, I would likely vote for TCS. I feel between him and Ortolan he has a slightly higher chance of being scum. I also feel like I would be able to get a better read on Ortolan than TCS.
I would also jump on icemanE with a vote if he got anywhere within lynch range (would still prefer this over anybody else).The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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Did anybody else notice that Ortolan's post #55 is actually the initial concept of the hypoclaim we have all decided to be pro-town? I only remembered his debate with Camn, but didn't quite have all the details fresh in my mind. I started a reread today since we are stalling slightly and I notice he actually suggested using the hider as an investigative role - just didn't have the specifics on execution where it would have been do-able.The above written statement is pro-town.- bionicchop2
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