Open 850: Democrabilities (Postgame)

[furtiveglance]

Greeting the game. Unforgiveable.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

[furtiveglance]

so we get 2 eliminations today. That's interesting. How about anyone who leads on town gets quickhammered afterwards?

[furtiveglance]

You're happy to lead on town then Radical Rat...you know the deal.

[furtiveglance]

My first post was a joke. I also think the greeting tell is is pretty stupid. "Hello All" wouldn't even qualify as an example. It was just a bit of meaningless content I came up with for us to read alignment into later.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Goldfish

Chsinsawing for furtive.

Looks like we have our scumteam confirmed , I'm sorry we couldn't be a townblock this time furtive.

The betrayal hurts.

[furtiveglance]

Alianna let me just latch onto you for a quick pocket/easy vote protection.

I can't wait to be towncore together this game!!!

[furtiveglance]

Goldfish I tried to ATE on page 1. Did it work or not?

[furtiveglance]

Am I expected to be able to meta read players I played with before? Hope not

[furtiveglance]

I think even with my limited experience I know that mafia usually aren't voted on day 1. Therefore I think we should No Eliminate on this extra vote we have. Otherwise we might get a town/town vote setup or some other scummy shenanigans.

VOTE: No Kill

[furtiveglance]

Titus you're looking a bit greedy I must say. I guess I'm not the designated Nightkill target....

[furtiveglance]

Let me just say, I am very cautious of anyone peddling the holy grail of 'info'. It's become a buzzword that scum (and town for some reason) love to hold up as the key to town winning the game. The fact is, we aren't robots. Town push town, scum push town, town defend town, scum defend town. So the idea of just voting someone at random for 'info' is inherently stupid and pointless. I'm pretty sure that if we end up double eliminating today two townies will die, and people will use the VCA as a tool to further their own scum agenda/town tunneling anyway. A much better idea is to no eliminate first, then agree on one vote.

[furtiveglance]

Greeting the game. Unforgiveable.

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

My first post was a joke. I also think the greeting tell is is pretty stupid. "Hello All" wouldn't even qualify as an example. It was just a bit of meaningless content I came up with for us to read alignment into later.

Reading back first page, Furtive's clarficiation re making a joke feels a little bit overly defensive to me? I know there was a vote for him afterwards but I feel like just about everyone would have been aware that it was a joke, and the follow-up afterwards feels slightly panicky.

Nice try but no. Goldfish's 11 clearly took it seriously and voted me for it. So I clarified. Let me anticipate your response. 'Oh furtiveglance clarifying once again, this is clearly scum on the back foot getting so defensive. Besides, even if he is town, let's get some info'.

[furtiveglance]

Given the response post 98 got, I'm guessing some of you guys love your info votes. My point actually specifically applies to this situation. If we do go for 2 eliminations (bad idea), scum will be more than prepared to adapt to this situation - probably by not pushing anyone that hard and setting up miscondemns. This feels obvious to me. Can anyone who is demanding we use the extra kill actually convince me of their certainty we'll get mafia day 1? I think that's a really far-fetched notion.

[furtiveglance]

Let me just say, I am very cautious of anyone peddling the holy grail of 'info'. It's become a buzzword that scum (and town for some reason) love to hold up as the key to town winning the game. The fact is, we aren't robots. Town push town, scum push town, town defend town, scum defend town. So the idea of just voting someone at random for 'info' is inherently stupid and pointless. I'm pretty sure that if we end up double eliminating today two townies will die, and people will use the VCA as a tool to further their own scum agenda/town tunneling anyway. A much better idea is to no eliminate first, then agree on one vote.

Are you actually suggesting that there's no difference between town and scum voting behavior?

My point is there is no set way that mafia plays.

[furtiveglance]

Mechanics aside, Radical Rat and Titus are giving me bad vibes. Yes it's because they're voting for me. I think that's understandable. Their attitudes seem a little bit menacing/hostile

[furtiveglance]

7, 71 and 104 from Radical Rat. just don't like the tone

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It's aggressive, but not in a towny way. I can't really say more than that. If people don't agree then fine

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From Titus, 93 is really bizarre. Calling Flea scum for strategic difference of opinion is a massive leap, then voting for me just because I'm the one vote going. Seems really bloodthirsty

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Titus - who is campaigning to throw? and who is scum jumping on it? More clarity of thought please

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I don't really know what to say at the moment, I'm waiting for someone to hammer No Eliminate. Not really sure why I'm the other option, hence my wariness of RR and Titus which I mentioned before. Notably they didn't engage with that, Radical Rat preferred to talk mech. Go figure.

[furtiveglance]

I don't really know what to say at the moment, I'm waiting for someone to hammer No Eliminate. Not really sure why I'm the other option, hence my wariness of RR and Titus which I mentioned before. Notably they didn't engage with that, Radical Rat preferred to talk mech. Go figure.

We're still going to have to vote someone after this. Who should that player be?

Radical Rat or Titus

[furtiveglance]

Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous

1) To suggest I am acting disingenously is very offensive and slander. I am pointing out the situation, which is that I am the only player with any votes. So a pivot isn't gonna happen now, even if I wanted one.
2) I don't want to eliminate. For the very simple reason that town always get voted day 1.

[furtiveglance]

Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous

That's because he doesn't want something. He wants the game to stagnate and have no information.

Someone should die tonight. If we had any real discussion whatsoever then we'd at least have data from someone who mafia thought was skilled town.

This is blatantly accusing me of being mafia. I strongly object to this gross mischaracterisation of my valid viewpoint. I think what you're suggesting is that 2 dead town is better than 1 dead town today because we'd get more 'information' and 'data' - I already explained how these buzzwords are a common tool of the mafia to further their agenda.

Does no one else think this post is incredibly scummy? It's outright telling someone else that I'm scum.

[furtiveglance]

I also think 173 clears Dunnstral, as much of a strawman as 172 was.

I don't understand. Do you think Dunnstral is definitely town for some reason? If so why?

[furtiveglance]

Acting like the only choices are you or no eliminate is disingenuous

1) To suggest I am acting disingenously is very offensive and slander. I am pointing out the situation, which is that I am the only player with any votes. So a pivot isn't gonna happen now, even if I wanted one.
2) I don't want to eliminate. For the very simple reason that town always get voted day 1.

There is going to be an elimination regardless. If we no eliminate here, we still have to eliminate today. Putting it off won't make it go away, and you're likely still going to be voted for by Radical Rat and Titus.

It's not slander. Saying the pivot won't happen and so you have no choice but to no eliminate

is

disingenuous. If you changed your mind, we could probably eliminate somebody else.

I know we will eliminate after no eliminating. You can obviously see what I'm trying to say, 2 eliminations is worse than one. Don't twist my words. I don't want this to be another game where it devolves into arguments about semantics. I never said I had no choice but to no eliminate, it's what I want to do.

[furtiveglance]

Take note of these bloodthirsty vultures surrounding my still breathing body....do not become one yourself. Anyone who has played this game knows it's very rare mafia are voted day 1. I'm not mafia, I' very surprised that anyone voting me thinks I'm mafia, and no clue as to why.

[furtiveglance]

and I can refute all of those baseless arguments. If I was scum with nothing to say, I wouldn't say that. The gamestate was stale and I commented on it. So what. It's a well known fact that town is eliminated day 1 in most games. I also have the added knowledge that I'm town. The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time. As for my outrage at being called scum, Titus' read had no basis or explanation. So yes I was baffled. As for not pushing my current reads, I really don't know what you mean. I've been consistent on voting No Eliminate, and I've also been open with my reads on players, even asking others to comment on them. So I did push there without being prodded.

In other words, get your murderous hands off me you greedy opportunist.

Yes I know I how I sound. I think it's warranted if you actually read the game though, and see how unfairly I'm being treated.

I am sure that town are smart enough not to condemn me here anyway, so have fun being left looking desperate and exposed.

[furtiveglance]

Alianna do you think I'm town?

[furtiveglance]

Alianna do you think I'm town?

I don’t know anymore. I was mostly townreading you because you were advancing the game and I agreed with your sus on Titus.
You seem to be playing slightly differently than the last two games (in general, not just recently), but then again, so am I. I’m probably going to do some meta research tomorrow.
191 and 193 have not convinced me you’re town. No further comment.
Could you explain why you asked me this question? This and 25 give me the impression that you really want me to TR you.
Please pardon my late-night stream of consciousness posting.

I do want your townread. I feel threatened.

[furtiveglance]

and I can refute all of those baseless arguments. If I was scum with nothing to say, I wouldn't say that. The gamestate was stale and I commented on it. So what. It's a well known fact that town is eliminated day 1 in most games. I also have the added knowledge that I'm town. The most redundant of your arguments against me seems to imply that I was against using the double elimination just because I was the most popular vote. This is false. I always wanted to No Eliminate first, and stated that at the time. As for my outrage at being called scum, Titus' read had no basis or explanation. So yes I was baffled. As for not pushing my current reads, I really don't know what you mean. I've been consistent on voting No Eliminate, and I've also been open with my reads on players, even asking others to comment on them. So I did push there without being prodded.

In other words, get your murderous hands off me you greedy opportunist.

Yes I know I how I sound. I think it's warranted if you actually read the game though, and see how unfairly I'm being treated.

I am sure that town are smart enough not to condemn me here anyway, so have fun being left looking desperate and exposed.

I'm getting the same vibe as I got from you in the Muses game here. you're trying to use general game mechanics and metagame knowledge to defend yourself.

I just like defending myself. I know you're not really meant to, but I do it nonetheless. I don't really understand this criticism either. I just went through Dunnstral's weak scumcase on me and dismissed it. What metagame knowledge have I appealed to?

[furtiveglance]

@Furtive - do you not think it looks slightly suspect that so far your approach has basically been to accuse the players who just happen to have completely contradictory stances to you? For me it's making me second-guess you being mafia because it feels like too blatant an approach for scum, but it is not helpful here and does not make your case look good.

Listen, Malcolm. Mafia chose to give us an extra kill today. So who would be pushing a miscondemn hardest today? Mafia. It's that simple for me. If I gave town an extra kill I wouldn't want to waste it. I think the stance (trying to put me in the ground) is badly motivated. So yeah. That's just how I see the game.

Expanded reads would be something like this: Flea strong townread, you strong townread, Goldfish/Alianna probs town, Cat.jpeg being a bit weird, and the people trying to kill me look sus. Yeah they do, I'm not gonna pretend they don't. They want to condemn a town for no good reason. That's a perfectly reasonable basis for suspicion.

[furtiveglance]

I do know that. But take a look at my other games. Mewbie 2092 for instance. When RCEgnima started pushing me, I didn't like it and they ended up being scum. Mafia don't usually bus day 1, so they have to push town. Obviously it's hard to differentiate town pushing me from scum pushing me. But look at Radical Rat for instance. They just seem unneccessarily aggressive, it looks like scum bravado. Plus they still never responded to me about it.

[furtiveglance]

You should back me, it will pay off handsomely.

[furtiveglance]

I know, and it's frustrating that town want to kill me and fall for the obvious trap.

[furtiveglance]

Newbie 2088 vibes. No one really saying anything, someone votes someone randomly and then everyone piles on for no reason.

[furtiveglance]

3 players are voting me. I will maintain there's no reason for voting me, Dunnstral was voting Cat and voted me just to condemn someone over no one. Does that not ring alarm bells for you?

And do you even have any scumreads or are you just gonna disagree with mine?

[furtiveglance]

Currently there's Titus voting you because they think you're scum trying to steer us away from an elimination. RR's vote at the start seemed to be on a more policy basis. It's not just mindless sheep hopping onto you for the sake of it as you seem to be suggesting.

Titus should be voting for Flea btw, if you go back and check. They disagreed with Flea then voted me.

[furtiveglance]

so we get 2 eliminations today. That's interesting. How about anyone who leads on town gets quickhammered afterwards?

I think it was this post.

Why would anyone in their right mind think that was a serious suggestion?

Radical Rat, did that really not read like a joke to you?

[furtiveglance]

I didn't see you say it earlier.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah, I was never serious about quickhammering. I didn't think it needed clarification that I was joking either.

[furtiveglance]

I've encouraged discussion, I was the first one to give actual reads and ask others for opinions.

[furtiveglance]

Look at 130

[furtiveglance]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Radical Rat

[furtiveglance]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.

[furtiveglance]

Not according to the votecount....LOL

[furtiveglance]

No I was referring to when Dunnstral's vote was missed

[furtiveglance]

Radical Rat, your thoughts on players besides me are just "Cat/Goldfish could be scum, maybe?"

For me it's the other way around, by the way. People's pushes on me seem rather disingenuous, and I've been defensive as a result of people being unnecessarily offensive.

My position is a pretty strange one to be in, and I'm not sure how to go about it. 3 people seem to have it locked into their heads that I'm scum, and everything I say seems to just confirm that for them. I'm trying to give reads and play the game normally, but If I'm constantly having to defend senseless pushes on me, I'll be a bit busy with that.

Oh no, that wasn't a full readslist or anything, just my current scumpool.

Actual readslist would look something like this:

Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

I don't like this readslist. It looks calculated, and not in a good way. It actually looks like an exercise I'd do if I was scum - rank players from hardest to easiest to mislim.

You think maybe that might be because scum finds it easiest to mislim players who look scummy?

You could have made this list pre-game, looking at past games. It doesn't reflect at all on the gamestate - the only link is me being bottom and you sussing me. The other reads come out of nowhere. I don't see a natural thought process here or any explanation. I will one up you tomorrow and show you what a real readslist looks like.

[furtiveglance]

Takes time to ISO. Where did you come from you cheeky pirate?

[furtiveglance]

First of all sorry if I've annoyed anyone so far. Some of my posts were pretty barbed looking back.

Some thoughts on players from their ISOs - I'll watch out for sus behaviour

GoldfishFromtheMoon

: Plays really openly. I'd be surprised if people push Gold this game. I only see town here. There's nothing informed, guarded or calculated about their posting and it shines through. I'm confident in this townread. Off limits, not to be miscondemned.

MalcolmTucker

: Seems pretty reasonable. I can't find fault with anything here - reads are well-reasoned and looking back makes some of the things I said sound a bit stupid. Some scum play like this, but Malcolm's play here is pretty similar to 2088 which I reread recently. Will probably become a universal TR I should think. Cool.

Titus

: Really annoying me if that's OK to say but I think they might be town. Stuff like 140, 173 is so illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing that it doesn't really come from scum. Seems to think everyone is 'throwing' by not using the extra vote. Given that most of town is wary of scum pushing through an extra miscondemn today, wouldn't be talking like this if scum. Reluctant townread, but playstyle is really bizarre and they need to calm down/accept other people's opinions.

FleaTheMagician

: played with Flea who was in a hydra before. Seem pretty similar this game. I agree with them about not using the extra vote. It's possible that they set that up as a dragon for them to slay - 121 for instance. I get the feeling I'll go back and forth on Flea, especially having stronger gut townreads, but they can have town status for today.

Alianna

: I haven't yet played with scum!Alianna. I don't think I am this game either. Tone and style match previous town games. My read here could change depending on flips, it's not as strong as others. But I do get a town vibe. It's the little comments and irreverent humour I've seen before. There's also a parallel between 178 and a comment town!Alianna made in a previous game.

Dunnstral

: Having trouble reading this one. The way they're playing is pretty steady and could easily be replicated as scum. They need to do more to be moved out of null, but I don't want to eliminate them today either.

Cat.Jpeg

: Playing a safe game right now. Trying to look busy. This can come from town, just not usually. Crossreferencing their posting with Mewbie 2092 (our previous game together) makes me really uneasy. They're not playing in the same way at all. Obviously the atmosphere is different this game, but they seem a bit stiff/awkward here. I think it's nervous scum, the other explanation is they haven't settled into the game yet. which would be fair as it's been a bit hostile (myself included). but yeah. personality has completely changed since 2092. scumread.

Radical Rat

: How could you seriously think my joke about quickhammering was a 'scum motivated suggestion'? - 71. I don't like the wording here, especially 'quite possibly'. Tone is confrontational in places - look at 104. Refusal to engage with my ideas about 'info'. Instead sees an easy pointscoring opportunity by making a moot point. Most of their ISO is mech talk - which is kinda understandable in this setup - but not towny - and as for their reads, they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great. I already said their expanded reads look opportunistic and inauthentic. Radical Rat is my preferred elimination. I'm not the type of player to be 100% on every read I make, but I'd be surprised if they flip town.

TLDR is it's Cat and Rat. Together. Both of them. Vote them.

[furtiveglance]

The first two people in your list are the two who didnt have a vote at the end of the ability phase. Also you townread titus for having 'illogical/unwarranted/aggressive/scathing' posts but scumread RadicalRat for what sounds like the same thing. What's the difference between them?

The difference is Titus clearly has drive, passion. Radical Rat is going through the motions and taking what they can get. It's night and day

[furtiveglance]

Are you discrediting my top two townreads because other people townread them?

[furtiveglance]

@furtive
I'm going to have to ask that you just take me at my word as far as misunderstanding your joke. I'm autistic and sometimes I misinterpret jokes that seem obvious to others, especially through text where I can't listen for inflections. If you think I'm scummy for not backing down after catching that, that's fine, but I'd appreciate you not accusing me of faking simple misinterpretations like that.

Understood.

[furtiveglance]

they voted me based on their own mistake which they admitted, but then are clinging to scumreading me because my reaction was apparently 'weird'. great.

To address this point, and also Flea's request for more than "too defensive,"

It's just the defensiveness alone, it's the nature of the defense. Like, you start out with just blatant OMGUS, and only very recently started to branch out from that. It felt like you were more concerned with getting people off of you than onto scum, and that's a strange attitude for Town to have so early on with only a couple votes actually on you.

That, and the way you approached the no lim, framing analysis of a potential elimination as useless because both alignments vote both ways sometimes. Which is true, but if that really made analysis useless Mafia as a game wouldn't really work. Everyone else seemed to agree that it would be useful, just not worth the numbers disadvantage, which I think is

wrong,

but makes sense. Saying nothing matters and there's no useable information to be gleaned feels like an attempt to stoke apathy and discourage pressure and scumhunting.

I've had this problem a few times - "Why are you being so defensive/if you were town you'd have the scumteam solved and be furiously pushing your scumreads" etc. I like defending myself, especially when people aren't pushing me for good reasons (imo of course). If we all ignored people's pushes on us and attacked someone else instead, the game would be pretty chaotic.

As for your actual points - my initial apprehension was towards people pushing hard for an elimination. It only happened to be omgus because they were pushing my elimination.

As for the idea that if we miscondemned twice today, the votecounts would somehow starkly reveal the scumteam, it's really naive and almost indefensible for me. Using the extra elimination would most likely end up with two dead town. I stand by this. I haven't discouraged pressure and scumhunting at all, I've been open with reads and tried to create discussion.

[furtiveglance]

Alianna seems town to me. They like to make statements like X's flip would give info on Y, even when it doesn't really make sense. I scumread them for it previously.

[furtiveglance]

If no one wants Radical Rat today, I'd like to get on board the counter wagon to Alianna and vote my other scumread.

VOTE: Cat.Jpeg

[furtiveglance]

Goldfish
What do you think of Cat? There is a cloud of suspicion around them. Also, do you like my readslist?

[furtiveglance]

Sometimes they do make sense. It depends

[furtiveglance]

NOOOOOOO. Ranking please

[furtiveglance]

Appreciate that and the feeling is mutual. Class of 2090 townblock is on.

[furtiveglance]

(Scum beware)

[furtiveglance]

Where readslist with colours >:c

[furtiveglance]

Though I think both Titus and furtive are sus, I think it’s unlikely they’re the team.

Right. A is keeping their options open.

But you originally called them scum because they had you both as scum together. But they don't, and now you're saying they're keeping their options open instead.

How are their reads different from town who is giving a reads list?

No town would have their position. SR on me sure. SR on furtiveglance ok. There's no way anyone believes SS so a defense turns into not a team but individual, which is an excuse to try and keep the game static.

I don't agree with this conclusion. Frankly, I agree with Alianna that one of you is probably scum, but not both. I'm just confident enough on furtive that it allows me to townread you by extension, but if she lacks that confidence it makes perfect sense to scumread you both on an individual basis

This is a typical scum/town interaction between Radical Rat and Alianna. Firstly, Alianna said that me and Titus were both 'sus'. Not that we had exactly one scum in. Radical Rat is shadowing this read in order to flip me town, then go 'oh wow it must be Titus'. 2 miscondemns for scum. It also makes Titus town if Radical Rat is scum, because scum don't really interact like this.

[furtiveglance]

Consensus scumread appears to be Cat.Jpeg at the moment. I think Alianna is town

[furtiveglance]

I think Titus is just unorthodox town. Yeah some people play weirdly as scum, but this seems too risky.

[furtiveglance]

Goldfish where is the readslist?
And can people who aren't voting vote or explain why they refuse?

[furtiveglance]

In 281, Radical Rat has me as slightly scummy, but in 397 they're talking about me like I'm conftown. 355 does it too to a lesser extent. Kind of looks TMI.

This is a good catch which needs to be explained by RR.

[furtiveglance]

I could easily vote Radical Rat again. I think Rat/Cat should be today's elimination. Titus is giving a bit more.

[furtiveglance]

Titus wtaf. Genuinely worried about you now cause you are not the person who goes "Well I wanna sub out but its strategic ss lol!" normally because you know thats not only against rules but its a shit move. It now also confirms my SR on you here.

It's not against the rules to call people dumb.
Our views yesterday couldn't reconcile. They were straight opposites. Like wtf.
I literally told you everything that you should have already known due to being a player of a certain age. Every rationale for no voting would equally apply to no limming Day 1 which is stupid. It limits VCA. Denies town info. Forces scum to give info on who nk is.

Social dynamics
People with opportunistic reads. A
People lurking things out Dunn
Triangle scumreads Usually all town, particularly in a setup where scum have a negated miselimination

Shall I repeat myself more?

In what universe do I find someone competent here? Like not agreeing with me is fine but someone capable of actually voting scum or strategic play?

Which of Alianna's reads are opportunistic?

[furtiveglance]

me, RR, and furtive in a triangle, nice

This is such a weird comment. Do you think it proves that we're all town? What's the point of commenting on this?

[furtiveglance]

People scumreading Alianna should read Mewbie 2092. They were widely scumread in that game and eliminated on Day 3. I think they're playing fairly similarly in this game.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Titus

I think this needs to happen though. Both the Alianna and Dunnstral pushes were based on things that are just objectively not true, and I'm not buying the "I'm the only competent player in the game" act, despite sharing her frustration with the no lim D1.

Really strange phrasing - 'this needs to happen'. Only vote for people you think are scum.

Cat.jpeg voting for Radical Rat makes me think they aren't paired, and I'm more sure of RR being scum.

UNVOTE: Cat.Jpeg

VOTE: Radical Rat

[furtiveglance]

I didn't like that E-1 by Dunnstral. Titus isn't giving me scum vibes here. The scum vibes come from Radical Rat, Cat.Jpeg and Dunnstral. I think a pivot is in order.

[furtiveglance]

She did say "sheep me or get me out." And since I've learned my lesson about sheeping scumreads on myself, I feel obligated to leave my vote where it is. But also that's not something I'd ever expect scum to say. So I might re-evaluate my case. Any hammery shenanigans will be taken as a scumclaim.

This makes no sense. If you're town, unvote this player that you clearly read as town. Why would you listen to "sheep me or get out"? Those are not the only options.

[furtiveglance]

I don't like the look of the Titus wagon, apart from Goldfish.

[furtiveglance]

Reckon a wagon on Alianna would have a much better chance of succeeding than one on Titus personally.

I would prefer Radical Rat.

[furtiveglance]

I've been thinking about what I'd do if I was scum, and I think it's reasonable to assume scum wouldn't want to openly pair on day 1. This theory assumes mafia implementing the old 'one on, one off' distribution.

So assuming scum wouldn't both be either on No Elim or both be voting for me in the ability phase, it would mean Dunnstral/Radical Rat/Titus has one mafia maximum (but also one mafia minimum).

This effectively clears Titus in my eyes, because Dunnstral and Radical Rat are both scummier.

Does this make sense to anyone, or is it too theoretical?

[furtiveglance]

I'm trying to consider where both scum would be if they were both on the No Elim. Alianna/Cat makes no sense to me. I think the No Elim does look clean, like I said previously Cat.Jpeg is the scummiest on it for me. If I try to primitively gamesolve assuming my idea of normal scum play, Cat/RR aren't paired after Cat voted RR when there is a serious possibility of them going today.
So if I assume Goldfish/Flea/Malcolm/Titus all town, and no bussing, and no open pairing on the same ability phase wagon, it basically leaves Cat.Jpeg/Dunnstral OR Alianna/Radical Rat OR Alianna/Dunnstral. 3 pairings, 2 of which include Alianna. Can you find any problems with this (assuming everything I'm assuming for the purposes of this experiment).

[furtiveglance]

I'm dismissing Cat.Jpeg/Dunnstral. They've voted each other at times and don't seem paired. I actually don't like any solve including Cat.Jpeg anymore. They have both of their possible partners (RR and Dunnstral) as scum, which seems risky. I'm struggling to see a town!Alianna game now. I know I townread her previously.

[furtiveglance]

I'll just put forward my very primitive (and probably wrong) current view of the game for people to take a look at. It features Alianna and Radical Rat.

Firstly, Alianna:
137 agrees with me that RR is sus in general terms - "I'm with you".
299 has RR firmly in null. This is where you might put your scum partner.
410 accuses RR of TMI, a very serious accusation.
411 on the other hand just wants to hear more from RR about it, no FOS, no vote.

Now, Radical Rat:
281 has Alianna in null, which is where Alianna then puts RR in 299.
418 doubles down on "dead null".
454 reiterates how null Alianna is.

These aren't individual scumcases - just highlighted interactions that I find 'sus'.

[furtiveglance]

I'm moving my vote, so I'll give a quick scumcase on Alianna.

Initial posting is some mech talk, NAI in my book.

146 and 147 are the first posts that catch my eye - asking questions is fine, it's just easy for scum to do in order to look busy.

153 gives blanket null reads on everyone. But then 177 agrees with my crazed posting about Titus being 'incredibly scummy'.

299 is a big readslist with 2 scumreads. One is Titus - who they've been consistent with (e.g. 196), but the other one is me. They say we're both sus but not paired, which feels like too much of a 'gimme' at that point in the game - to point out how Titus and I clearly weren't paired scum.

363 I think is Alianna's scummiest post so far. I don't like the phrase "This is explicitly not an OMGUS vote". It smacks of self-awareness.

443 is unlikely to come from town. I don't like it at all because it seems to imply second thoughts on their scumread of Titus, but Alianna doesn't unvote. 445 is sitting on the fence and self-justifying.

(I hope I'm not scumreading town!Alianna 2 games running...)

UNVOTE: Radical Rat

VOTE: Alianna

[furtiveglance]

I don't think Alianna and Radical are teammates here based on that. Radical's reads would implicate them together, but strikes me as unlikely Alianna would be agreeing their mafia teammate is suspect that early in the game unless it was an over-eager attempt at creating some distance between the two of them.

Alianna/Dunnstral then?

[furtiveglance]

My mind is made up for today. I will discuss this matter no further.

[furtiveglance]

Ahh furtive, I know we be friends but that is really not a great attitude.

What I mean is...my vote is cast. alea iacta est. and I won't change my vote before the deadline - under a day's time.

[furtiveglance]

I think I'm fairly confident that Flea/Malcolm/Goldfish/Titus are all town, so voting in Alianna/Cat/Dunnstral/Radical Rat will probably result in good things.

[furtiveglance]

I think I'm fairly confident that Flea/Malcolm/Goldfish/Titus are all town, so voting in Alianna/Cat/Dunnstral/Radical Rat will probably result in good things.

Was going to ask what you made of my positioning on the Wagon, the jump on then jump off after being AtE'd

Looked like a town/town interaction to me.

[furtiveglance]

What are your (Flea) thoughts on the game right now?

[furtiveglance]

That's E-1. I'll be very shocked if Titus flips red. I think we'll be left with a disappointing flip and no info, at least my view of the game won't change at all.

[furtiveglance]

Titus will be today's elim unless one brave soul wants to unvote. Otherwise we don't have the voting power.

[furtiveglance]

I survived the night and all I got was this lousy t shirt.

[furtiveglance]

So basically we're voting for our top townread in this inform phase.

[furtiveglance]

A bit about the Titus elimination, it was terrible, I hated it, it's really frustrating.

[furtiveglance]

Flea voting for Titus slightly dampens my townread there. I think Goldfish is the most town for me.

I would like to inform Goldfish.

VOTE: Goldfish

[furtiveglance]

I haven't really changed my thoughts since yesterday. I think the Alianna wagon looked pretty clean, and might be my favourite vote in today: Part 2, even more so now that Titus is definitely town. Radical Rat still giving me bad vibes along with Dunnstral (or their replacement), but obviously only 2 mafia. I've changed my position on Cat slightly, they seemed to really want a vote on Radical Rat so might be town.

[furtiveglance]

I don't like the look of the Titus wagon, apart from Goldfish.

Could you explain why Goldfish is an exception here?

Strong gut townread which I explained in 304. Do you scumread Goldfish, or are you just trying to make me doubt?

Just fyi, I would consider this a scum+ post from you. It's just probing without offering any of your own analysis.

[furtiveglance]

Flea voting for Titus slightly dampens my townread there.

How so?
For me it did the opposite, pushing an elimination on the intended nightkill doesn't make sense for scum unless the wagon is on their partner.

I hadn't considered this. It definitely wouldn't be ideal to vote the nightkill Day 1. I should think about this more.

[furtiveglance]

I haven't really changed my thoughts since yesterday. I think the Alianna wagon looked pretty clean, and might be my favourite vote in today: Part 2, even more so now that Titus is definitely town. Radical Rat still giving me bad vibes along with Dunnstral (or their replacement), but obviously only 2 mafia. I've changed my position on Cat slightly, they seemed to really want a vote on Radical Rat so might be town.

Do you have any thoughts about assosiatives?

You have a lot of scum reads which makes me think this is a "if X is scum then Y isn't, but if X is town Y is definitely scum" kind of situation. so who do you think is paired or definitely isn't?

I have a scumpool of 3 right now. [Alianna, Dunnstral, Radical Rat]

So I don't really need to do associatives, because we can run through all three of these.

The thing is that Dunnstral was a townread of both Alianna and RR so they don't fit in, which is why I still think Alianna/RR is most likely.

But I need to rethink things. It's a new day.

[furtiveglance]

I just realised I formatted posts like above ^^ in my latest scumgame, Newbie 2093. It's just a new habit, don't scumread me for it.

[furtiveglance]

Why aren't they paired?

[furtiveglance]

Why aren't they paired?

Peep my delirious hallucinations in 457.

[furtiveglance]

Flea voting for Titus slightly dampens my townread there. I think Goldfish is the most town for me.

I would like to inform Goldfish.

VOTE: Goldfish

I'd generally agree here. There's a part of me that's slightly hesitant though because Goldfish was ultimately on a town wagon I thought was quite bad...but I get not everyone on said wagon is going to be scum and players do make mistakes. Will put my vote on Goldfish for now, but I am open to alternative ideas/suggestions if anyone has them. However, struggling to think of too many players I'm entirely confident on here to be informed.

VOTE: Goldfish

I agree with your point about the Titus wagon but I don't really want to inform Cat, so that leaves us two. I would like to be informed but I think some people still have reservations, and Goldfish is a bit easier to read than you for me. I think their follow ups and reaction to that condemn have been good.

[furtiveglance]

I've thought about this inform ability a bit more. It will most likely give us a confirmed town, because mafia wouldn't want to out themselves. I think based on yesterday the player we will be informed of is probably Flea/Malcolm, for being consensus townreads.

[furtiveglance]

true. town actually have some good abilities in this setup, I'm looking forward to Track and Watch if scum are taking requests

[furtiveglance]

I assumed Goldfish would be informed after the inform phase but before the main vote to kill phase.

This is kind of a mod question - when is the information given to the voted player in the inform phase?

[furtiveglance]

Ok. I might re-read day 1 and try and get a feel of who I'd reveal and who I'd nightkill. Nightkilling the BP player is obviously a no-go, so I'd be targeting the most likely player to be informed of another player's role.

[furtiveglance]

What if we think you aren't town? I also think Malcolm and Goldfish are both town, and they're the other people who voted Goldfish with me.

[furtiveglance]

You're voting for yourself to receive important info instead of being a team player. I don't like that.

[furtiveglance]

You need to be aware of how you're perceived and why. That's the first step to being involved in the town. If you just push your own agenda and ignore us all the time, it's not easy townread you. You didn't really engage with my idea of giving Goldfish the info, what do you think about that? I get that you prefer yourself, but do think Goldfish is scum? Or just a likely nightkill target? What's the issue here.

[furtiveglance]

You think me/Malcolm is the pair then? If not who is it? Your idea of what maf were doing day 1 doesn't fit the profiles of any of my scumreads.

[furtiveglance]

You need to be aware of how you're perceived and why. That's the first step to being involved in the town. If you just push your own agenda and ignore us all the time, it's not easy townread you. You didn't really engage with my idea of giving Goldfish the info, what do you think about that? I get that you prefer yourself, but do think Goldfish is scum? Or just a likely nightkill target? What's the issue here.

Yes this is my concern - Dunn appears more desperate to just get the info themselves instead of willingly engaging with alternative choices beyond Goldfish if they don't want them to be informed here. Dunn surely TR's more than one player here - if that's the case, why not suggest they are informed? We're not going to get anywhere if the game is just full of players all wanting to be informed themselves.

Exactly - I want to be informed as well, but I'm trying to co-operate.

[furtiveglance]

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

This logic is bizarre and cyclical because it assumes town!Alianna initially. The way I see it, Alianna was the counter wagon to confirmed town. That's the only thing I care about. Alianna does not get towncred for being the counter wagon to the nightkill, because that implies that me/Malcolm are scum. Which is untrue/I would be shocked if Malcolm was mafia. So Alianna is no more town than yesterday for me.

[furtiveglance]

In light of Titus getting smoked, I'll add Cat.Jpeg to the townbloc. Their recent posting has been towny. I'm seeing 2 mafia in Alianna/Dunnstral/Radical Rat.

[furtiveglance]

I think the people who want Goldfish informed are town at the moment, and the people I'm suspicious of are pushing for alternatives. So I'm happy to press on. Cat.Jpeg/Flea should hammer Goldfish and we can move on.

[furtiveglance]

Spoiler: We don't need another hero!

As the sun set 8 people went to their houses. In the morning.... 8 still remained.

The Day 2 Ability Phase shall be: Inform
The mafia has chosen a player, vote a player you want to learn the alignment of the player chosen by the mafia!


Votecount 2.0.0

Day 2: Taste- So many tasty things to eat

Not Voting: Radical Rat, MalcolmTucker, furtiveglance, GoldfishFromTheMoon, Dunnstral, Cat.Jpeg, Alianna, Flea The Magician

With 8 alive it takes 5 to make a decision.
Deadline:(expired on 2022-05-17 00:07:08)

Beautiful. Sorry Titus <3 so this shot is either random or someone who played with Titus before knows she powers up as the game goes on.
Dunn isn't the type to make that shot I don't think, I think Rat might but might suggest it more than push it.
Doesn't eliminate either of them and both are under close watch today.

Let it be said that I was online when the daystart was posted

Let it be said that I also was online when the day start was posted. Is that relevant though?

LAMIST much?

Flea voting for Titus slightly dampens my townread there. I think Goldfish is the most town for me.

I would like to inform Goldfish.

VOTE: Goldfish

Hoping you elaborate on this.

Spoiler: We don't need to know the way home

Wagon on me was interesting and draws parallels with 2092 but I don’t want to comment too much until I’ve thought more.

Again, hoping you elaborate here.

I've thought about this inform ability a bit more. It will most likely give us a confirmed town, because mafia wouldn't want to out themselves. I think based on yesterday the player we will be informed of is probably Flea/Malcolm, for being consensus townreads.

I think we've actually forced mafias hand here which amuses me. Fun thing is finding out who they've cleared.
For me Goldfish is not the one to inform here, but, Mafia also cannot lie without outing themselves unless they "clear" themselves. So optimal scumplay here is vote their NK or vote themselves.

Spoiler: All we want is life beyond

I find it humorous that because Titus was NK'd it's almost like we didn't eliminate twice. They would hate that. Im going to look at the game again with the knowledge 2 people knew Titus was the nightkill. The final vote count has me, furtive, malcolm, and alianna not voting titus but i dont think thats too useful because i think the mafia (at least one of them) ended up voting titus in the end to avoid getting voted themselves (rr or dunnstral). Also once again I townlean alianna for how absurd it was for them to unvote on Titus. Early in the game though might yeild more information.

Titus is screaming at me from the dead thread. I can promise you that. 3 eliminations become one and we're on evens which is what I was trying to avoid.

You need to be aware of how you're perceived and why. That's the first step to being involved in the town. If you just push your own agenda and ignore us all the time, it's not easy townread you. You didn't really engage with my idea of giving Goldfish the info, what do you think about that? I get that you prefer yourself, but do think Goldfish is scum? Or just a likely nightkill target? What's the issue here.

Mhmm. Why pick on Dunn and not goldfish for this?

Spoiler: The thunderdome.

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

Actually a good shout. Hoping we get more solid stances from Alianna though and I'm not entirely sold without a reread there.

We should stop and think this through.

As I mentioned just before the end of D1, scum would have Not wanted Titus to be eliminated. While this doesn't 100% clear her wagon, it's probably safe to assume that at least one scum would have been trying to redirect, and Titus's main counter wagon was Alianna, which saw moderate success, albeit not enough. From this, it's a pretty safe bet that Alianna is Town, and since we know she's been a contentious slot, it's more likely that scum have her lined up for elimination than nightkill.

VOTE: Alianna

This logic is bizarre and cyclical because it assumes town!Alianna initially. The way I see it, Alianna was the counter wagon to confirmed town. That's the only thing I care about. Alianna does not get towncred for being the counter wagon to the nightkill, because that implies that me/Malcolm are scum. Which is untrue/I would be shocked if Malcolm was mafia. So Alianna is no more town than yesterday for me.

Your logic is amazing.

Rat gains cred, Dunn gains sus, cat/malc/furtive incriminating each other? huh.

These thoughts are....idk. Weird? Bad?

1) Nightkill analysis is even more useless than usual in this considering that it was done pre-game. Rat gets no towncred from that.

2) I don't need to elaborate on informing Goldfish. They're my strongest townread.

3) Your point about giving the Titus wagon towncred is illogical. It assumes that Alianna is town - which I don't think is true in the first place. The fact is that the Titus wagon were all voting town - they get scumcred in my eyes.

4) Are you sarcastically criticising my logic about Alianna still being scummy based on yesterday's wagon? If so, counter it.

5) You're casually sussing me/Malcolm/Cat. Expand on this.

In general, I don't like the playstyle of coast + wallpost with questionable content. I much prefer little and often, it helps understand your thought process.

[furtiveglance]

Slightly related thought, scum could try to get a controversial player informed to sabotage the ability's effectiveness. I like 576 even less now.

I mean, if it really comes down to it, we can just eliminate the informed player after they share the results. I don't anticipate NEEDING to do that, but it would clear up the results easily enough.

You forget the fact that if we eliminate incorrectly today tommorow will be melo... so we shouldn't do it just to clear the results because if they are town we'll loose.

Yeah this makes no sense from Radical Rat. We inform a townread player, someone we're not going to condemn soon.

[furtiveglance]

Not sure why I gain sus in the post above

Because it doesn't say why in the spoilered parts and instead seems to be setting up for a townread on me

That entire post needs following up, it was confusing.

But you are undeniably sus

[furtiveglance]

Cat vote Goldfish

[furtiveglance]

I shall be dead before I see the

ring

inform in the hands of an

elf.

yone other than Goldfish.

[furtiveglance]

It's true that if Alianna's scum, Titus is a better elimination for scum. However, scum could have easily moved onto literally anyone else, and they didn't. That tells me they were okay with at least one of the leading wagons, and since Titus was bad for them... Must've been Alianna.

If you think scum weren't on Titus yesterday, your view of the game is wrong. That's all I can say.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think I should have to. Radical Rat is insinuating that the towniest people in the game are scum.

[furtiveglance]

My townreads are long in the making. I trust myself and my read of the game. I think you're mafia, either with Radical Rat or Dunnstral.

[furtiveglance]

Who do the players voting for Goldfish think will die during the night?

I think me/Flea/Malcolm are all more likely than Goldfish based on Day 1.

[furtiveglance]

On second thought, the lack of a real counterwagon might suggest that Goldie really is slated to die or that she's the BP.

UNVOTE:

Wrong. The players (apart from you) that I consider most likely to be mafia have objected and voted elsewhere.

[furtiveglance]

Great. I think Alianna is the best vote for today, just ahead of Radical Rat.

VOTE: Alianna

[furtiveglance]

True. This game feels a bit stuck in the mud. I love the setup - it's just that people's read and views of the game (myself included) aren't changing that much. For me it's because people voted out my townread (sad).

[furtiveglance]

On second thought, the lack of a real counterwagon might suggest that Goldie really is slated to die or that she's the BP.

UNVOTE:

Wrong. The players (apart from you) that I consider most likely to be mafia have objected and voted elsewhere.

And yet Goldfish is the only one that more than a single person can agree on apparently. Hardly suggests that any of the others are coordinated pushes

Maybe a co-ordinated push would be too obvious and risky. After all this isn't an elimination, just an ability.

[furtiveglance]

@Dunnstral can you give a readlist and explian some of your thought process? I feel like most of your posts are about if we should double elim or not or defending your vote on Titus. I don't scumread you for voting Titus and originally to me her posts looked very scummy but I had more of a gut feeling that she was town, I get why you voted her though. What I do scumread you for is the lack of solve-driven input from you and the lack of expressing any townreads.

Towny: Goldfish, Alianna, Flea
Null: Radical Rat, radital cat
Scummy: FurtiveGlance, Malcolm

That is where I am at with reads

As for thought process, what do you want to know?

These reads are really strange.
You think that:
1) Yesterday was town/town
2) I knew that and didn't want to condemn the nightkill
3) I loudly townread the nightkill and begged for a pivot to another town
4) Malcolm and I have paired openly and townread each other all game as the worst scumteam ever

Scumcase me. How did you get here?

[furtiveglance]

I think Alianna would be a better elimination than RR of those two. I've not been particularly keen on RR's push for Alianna to be informed but I reckon it'd have been too blatant for a scum partnership to pull off personally. I disagree with RR's read on Alianna but it's probably a genuine, if flawed, one.

I'd also quite happily vote for Dunn, I reckon there's a decent chance we hit scum there.

I agree that I need to throw out Alianna/Radical Rat, after the inform thing.

I think it makes for Alianna/Dunnstral or Dunnstral/Radical Rat, which would put Dunnstral in my focus.

[furtiveglance]

I need to think for a bit more. If Alianna/RR has one mafia, Dunnstral is a better vote for being mafia in both scenarios. I'm just worried I'm giving Flea an easy ride. Eagerly awaiting what they have to say today/tomorrow.

UNVOTE: Alianna

[furtiveglance]

Question for everyone. If you had to vote either Dunnstral or Radical Rat today, who would you vote?

[furtiveglance]

Why not?

[furtiveglance]

A response to 668 would be great if possible

[furtiveglance]

Mostly prodging.

I should share some thoughts, but I'm not certain who to vote for, still weighing options and have mostly just been observing.

Right now I'm fairly confident scum is in furtive/Malcolm/Cat. Definitely at least one in there, possibly two.
IF there was scum hiding on the Titus wagon, it probably was Dunn, but I don't feel strong enough there to say so definitively, beyond that his D2 looks a good deal worse than D1.

Maybe the right thing to do would be to just posthumously sheep Titus, maybe she saw something unique about Dunnstral's inactivity here compared to when he's inactive as Town and just couldn't communicate it properly. But it makes me nervous that the entire rest of my PoE is also pushing Dunn as scum.

So yeah, I don't know where I'm going yet. Ironically I might have actually wanted to no lim here, wait to see what the Inform does, but that's not possible, and probably wouldn't be a good idea anyway.

If you were to sheep Titus' reads you'd vote Alianna, not Dunnstral.

[furtiveglance]

Not sure why I gain sus in the post above

Wasn't anything significant, that I could point to. Vibes.

These thoughts are....idk. Weird? Bad?

1) Nightkill analysis is even more useless than usual in this considering that it was done pre-game. Rat gets no towncred from that.

2) I don't need to elaborate on informing Goldfish. They're my strongest townread.

3) Your point about giving the Titus wagon towncred is illogical. It assumes that Alianna is town - which I don't think is true in the first place. The fact is that the Titus wagon were all voting town - they get scumcred in my eyes.

4) Are you sarcastically criticising my logic about Alianna still being scummy based on yesterday's wagon? If so, counter it.

5) You're casually sussing me/Malcolm/Cat. Expand on this.

In general, I don't like the playstyle of coast + wallpost with questionable content. I much prefer little and often, it helps understand your thought process.

NKA in a traditional sense, useless. I'm not using it in a traditional sense, I'm going on what I would expect people to do pre-game which would be based on knowledge of Titus.

You absolutely do, and in fact I'm going to insist on it.

What point about the Titus wagon? You mean Rats I agreed with?

Absolutely yes I'm being sarcy.
You are dismissing any wagon analysis reads by trying to pretend they're circular and amending to the wagon information to create your point.

Facts are: Alianna was the designated counterwagon. Titus wagon would've wanted to be avoided.
Scum are probably smart enough to put 1 on wagon at most.

Counterwagon drivers are likely to be scum pushes on town targets to maximise their win chance, there's nothing gained from pushing their own team as a counter.

For now it's safe to keep Alianna off the table, they're by no means confirmed, but it does present interesting insights - and you provided one yourself - the implication of yourself and Malcom.

Casually sussing? You and Malcom yes, Dunn, yes. Cat? no. Nothing casual about my sus there. And now there's nothing casual about my sus on you.
VOTE: Furtiveglance

Now this last line of yours is going to get its own post.

Re: 507 and 509 being LAMIST
I don't get what you mean by this. I did not read 507 as making any attempt to project alignment. It just looked like Goldfish being Goldfish. I can tell you that the same goes for my post 509.

Re: furtive's 566 criticizing Dunn's self-vote
Self-voting isn't auto-sus here. From an individual perspective, it makes sense to do so as either alignment because you're informed of your own alignment. The problem is that your fellow townies are not, so overall the pro-town decision is to give the information to somebody trusted. Goldfish is widely townread, so there isn't really an issue with her self-vote, but Dunn has been controversial.
Slightly related thought, scum could try to get a controversial player informed to sabotage the ability's effectiveness. I like 576 even less now.

Towncred for the sake of towncred. I dislike it.
Goldfish being goldfish means nothing to me. I don't know them.

I can likewise counter your point here with Dunn being Dunn.
Furtives 566 is trying to lecture someone with a join date 6 years older than them on how to play mafia.

, Mafia also cannot lie without outing themselves unless they "clear" themselves.

What do you mean? mafia can lie about someone who isnt them being BP'd because mafia could just not kill the person they said and it would seem like they were BP'd. How would that out the mafia.

Wasn't fully clear of mind at the time, more possibilities have been rolled. This is an optimal play from them here and them being informed works fully in scum favour here.

In the scenario that the mafia have BP'd someone they will try and get elimmed today (probably RR, Alianna, or Dunnstral), because the fact that the mafia might have given the BP to them even though they are being scumread has been acknowledged then if they are scum they can pretend that is what happened. Also it would be stupid to eliminate the person we informed and i dont want to rule out any of these 3 from elimination.

In the more likely scenario that mafia has chosen to BP a consensus townread because it will be the least useful to town once we find out, then they know that person wont get voted out and will survive to the last day. In that case mafia probably BP'd somebody who they believe they can convince to vote with them. Which is why if goldfish is BP i will be more sus of dunnstral and maybe RR (at the end of day one rr was the only person goldfish gave no read on or mentioned). And i think goldfish is likely to be BP because shes the most widely townread and also hasn't expressed as strong opinions or scumreads as other widely townread people.

But wait if goldfish is the BP that means shes also not the NK so voting her is fine? Im confusing myself. While i think goldfish is most likely to be BP its a 40% chance and the other 60% is split (not exactly evenly) between everyone else so i think shes most likely but still not likely. Whatever. Me being a better vote still makes sense (under the conditions you think im town). Vote Cat 2022.

I don't think they'll go for a consensus TR personally, I think if they are a consensus TR then it's co-incidence. Thing here would be to confirm a player who is right on as few of the maf as possible. That player gets confirmed pretty much, and their takes are going to carry a little more weight than they probably should.

I can't really strip quote without breaking the post so I'll respond down here.

The most important point here is that half of the players in the game are now analysing yesterday's vote in an unhelpful way. The fact is that I correctly townread Titus and wanted to keep them in the game yesterday. I maintain that Alianna has high scum equity. Using the setup with a pre-destined nightkill to limit today's functional scumpool to me/Malcolm/Cat is a really strange choice for a few reasons. Firstly, mafia would know that people would be looking at who defended the nightkill, so if I was mafia, I wouldn't have done that. Besides, having even numbers being bad for mafia is a complete myth. It's actually better for mafia to have even numbers as long as it stays that way until Elo.

Bottom line is if I was scum in this game I'd vote Titus yesterday to seem unaware that they were the nightkill and probably use it as a springboard to push people who were off the wagon the next day. It's interesting to see who's doing that today.

I'm not sure why 566 makes you think I'm mafia. It seems like it just annoys you for being a lecture.

[furtiveglance]

In general, I don't like the playstyle of coast + wallpost with questionable content. I much prefer little and often, it helps understand your thought process.

So accusing me of coasting, interesting. D2 I've been absent admittedly because my health took a nose dive - as is it want to do when it feels like it.
Questionable content, oh yeah absolutely - and a good amount of the bait was taken. Even better though is almost every single post I'm seeing from you is so questionable on so many levels, and while you're trying to do your little and often - reality is I see you actually doing very little actual decent hunting and mostly excusing yourself.


As for understanding my thought process? Good luck. There's at least 3 sets of ADHD/Autism mindset and tracks to follow.

Firstly, I hope you're doing ok health-wise.

I didn't realise there was any bait, or that I took it. What do you mean by this?

If you want to assert that my every post is questionable and excusing myself, and I haven't been scumhunting at all, you should probably quote posts you think show this. But you might be surprised to find a lot of open reads, attempts to solve and create discussion instead.

If you aren't able to post more frequently that's fine. I'm just trying to show you my perspective that if I don't see anything from you for some time and a lot of stuff has happened in game, and then you make some posts detailing how your stances have significantly changed, it's hard for me to see why they've changed so much, and it feels more sudden than if you'd been reacting in real time.

[furtiveglance]

@Dunnstral can you give a readlist and explian some of your thought process? I feel like most of your posts are about if we should double elim or not or defending your vote on Titus. I don't scumread you for voting Titus and originally to me her posts looked very scummy but I had more of a gut feeling that she was town, I get why you voted her though. What I do scumread you for is the lack of solve-driven input from you and the lack of expressing any townreads.

Towny: Goldfish, Alianna, Flea
Null: Radical Rat, radital cat
Scummy: FurtiveGlance, Malcolm

That is where I am at with reads

As for thought process, what do you want to know?

These reads are really strange.
You think that:
1) Yesterday was town/town
2) I knew that and didn't want to condemn the nightkill
3) I loudly townread the nightkill and begged for a pivot to another town
4) Malcolm and I have paired openly and townread each other all game as the worst scumteam ever

Scumcase me. How did you get here?

1 is just true.
If Dunn thinks you’re scum and is right, 2 is just implied as long as you aren’t scum with me.
3 is something you did whether you intended to or not.
4 is just not true. Malcolm didn’t even TR you until the readslist in 321, and in fact expressed slight suspicion of you. I will say though that I don’t see you/Malcolm as a team.

Not a fan of this post. It’s taking things that are totally reasonable to think and making them sound insane. It also implies I’m lockscum.
And then in the follow-up, you decided Dunn was more likely and unvoted me. I’m having a hard time seeing that sequence of posts as natural.

VOTE: furtiveglance

Firstly, this isn't a scumcase. You're just responding to something I asked of Dunnstral, and then voting me at the end.

My attempt was to show how unreasonable these things would be to do for me. It's not how I would play this setup as scum at all. In my view of the game, you are likely mafia yes. But my point wasn't even to say that you're definitely mafia and everyone must agree. It's that to consider me scummy for trying to get a pivot off Titus is bad logic because it assumes that you're town. About my own reads and actions regarding voting, I think my scumpool is pretty clear and I've said who I think are bad several times. My current solve is essentially [Alianna/Radical Rat, Dunnstral] which is why I want to vote Dunnstral over you today.What don't you find natural about this? I shared this exact viewpoint in 669.

[furtiveglance]

As for thought process, what do you want to know?

Why do you read each person that way?

I still think FurtiveGlance is scummy from the start of the game and they way they overblow things. Malcolm feels like they are maneuvering in a scummy way. I don't trust Malcolm's reads or how they got there.

I was pretty dramatic in my early posting. Since then I've settled down a bit.

[furtiveglance]

Great, look forward to it.

[furtiveglance]

I can't really strip quote without breaking the post so I'll respond down here.

The most important point here is that half of the players in the game are now analysing yesterday's vote in an unhelpful way. The fact is that I correctly townread Titus and wanted to keep them in the game yesterday. I maintain that Alianna has high scum equity. Using the setup with a pre-destined nightkill to limit today's functional scumpool to me/Malcolm/Cat is a really strange choice for a few reasons. Firstly, mafia would know that people would be looking at who defended the nightkill, so if I was mafia, I wouldn't have done that. Besides, having even numbers being bad for mafia is a complete myth. It's actually better for mafia to have even numbers as long as it stays that way until Elo.

Bottom line is if I was scum in this game I'd vote Titus yesterday to seem unaware that they were the nightkill and probably use it as a springboard to push people who were off the wagon the next day. It's interesting to see who's doing that today.

I'm not sure why 566 makes you think I'm mafia. It seems like it just annoys you for being a lecture.

Nuance is a powerful thing and something you seem to lack.
The fact you correctly townread Titus is nothing, so did I for most of the day until she took a stupidly bad take which is odd for her and ngl I'm a lil worried about her.

Even Numbers is abslutely better for mafia, that was never in dispute.

Bottom line in self-meta and saying what scum you would do is NAI - the weight you put there however, is AI. Your whole defence again is "I don't play like that."

566 is just a shitty post and I could be inclined to say its a mislim setup. Frankly I don't think you're that stupid.

If Even Numbers is better for mafia then, why are you saying mafia wouldn't vote the nightkill?

[furtiveglance]

I also disagree about my defence. It's less 'I wouldn't do that' and more 'No one would do that'.

[furtiveglance]

I'm at E-2 out of nowhere. That means at least 1 town is voting for me, probably 2.

I feel wronged. I'm trying to solve, I'm being open, I'm giving reads.

I called Titus town and you killed them anyway, so you guys haven't helped me solve at all.

What I'm saying is that I think I'm playing well, townreading town and scumreading scum, and other town aren't playing as well.

I thought I was a pretty likely nightkill, but judging by today scum probably think they can condemn me off the back of a bad start.

I've kind of gone off Alianna being scum, I'm seeing Dunnstral/Radical Rat right now.

The worst vote on me comes from Radical Rat. 707 ^^ looks really sneaky and desperate to appear uninformed by talking about confbias and stuff.

I think town will lose if I'm eliminated today, it's as simple as that for me.

I'd love a Radical Rat vote today, maybe even more than a Dunnstral vote. But I do think Dunnstral is likely scum as well.

Practically we have a problem with today's vote. Flea/Alianna/RR/Dunnstral will all end up voting me, whereas me/Malcolm/Cat/Goldfish will vote the counter - either Dunnstral or RR.

Dunnstral, would you vote for Radical Rat instead of me?

Alianna, will you vote either Dunnstral or RR?

[furtiveglance]

I'm trying to be realistic and practical. I can't help you with vibes. Is it possible that you don't like my vibes regardless of alignment?

[furtiveglance]

Explain why I should vote for Radical Rat
Most of your case seems to be that they are paired with me, which I don't agree with

They're scummy in a vacuum.

Peep the readslist in 281.

It's this:
Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

Then, they vote me for a bit - after scumreading me on page 1 for nothing and doubling down afterwards based on my 'reactions', but when it becomes clear the choice is Titus or Alianna they vote Titus saying 'this needs to happen' - 419, whatever that means.

This is despite Titus being higher up than Alianna on their list. It's why I considered Alianna/Radical Rat a likely scumteam (and still think it's possible).

Then voting to inform Alianna in 576 struck me as really strange. No one was ever going to go for Alianna there. It looks to me like Radical Rat knows they've been playing too safe and does something 'wacky' for the sake of it, because it's something scum might not do.

Their poe is apparently now me/Malcolm/Cat, who are three fairly obvious town to me.

Look at how Goldfish was bottom of the list in 281 ^^ and has been forgotten about because I and others are hard townreading them. It stinks of scum not wanting to cause a fuss and amending their reads in this way. They even voted to inform Goldfish in 657. Why would you give an apparent scumread this ability?

All in all Radical Rat's play has not been consistent and looks like lazy scum doing what they can get away with, including jumping on my wagon at the earliest opportunity. Why didn't they start the vote on me? They obviously want to hide in the middle and avoid responsibility if I flip.

[furtiveglance]

Ok so furtive I still think you're town but some of your recent play really doesn't make sense. Below is a breakdown of 710:

Spoiler:

I'm at E-2 out of nowhere. That means at least 1 town is voting for me, probably 2.

I feel wronged. I'm trying to solve, I'm being open, I'm giving reads.

I called Titus town and you killed them anyway, so you guys haven't helped me solve at all.

What I'm saying is that I think I'm playing well, townreading town and scumreading scum, and other town aren't playing as well.

Not a fan of the guilt tripping, mislims happen, you shouldn't blame the rest of us for thinking Titus was scum.
You've argued in a couple of your posts that you correctly townread titus and that should give you towncred, which isn't true.

Spoiler:

I'm seeing Dunnstral/Radical Rat right now.

I find it hard to see you naturally coming to this conclusion. In previous games, and I think in this one, you've argued before that you didn't have the scum team pinned down because it's never the most obvious choice, and yet this game you think the two scum are the two players who are close to consensus scumreads.

Spoiler:

I think town will lose if I'm eliminated today, it's as simple as that for me.

If you are town I think this is true, although you could probably say that for any town player. A miselimination puts us in a very bad situation tommorow. Unless you are the intended nightkill in which case we might have a chance.

Spoiler:

Practically we have a problem with today's vote. Flea/Alianna/RR/Dunnstral will all end up voting me, whereas me/Malcolm/Cat/Goldfish will vote the counter - either Dunnstral or RR.

You shouldn't assume which way people will vote, if you get scummy enought I will vote for you, the townblock only stands so long as we both townread each other, and people currently on your wagon have other scumreads and might switch.

I'm not really guilt tripping about Titus, I'm just expressing my frustration. As for does it give me towncred - if I had been like "this probably flips town guys, consider voting elsewhere if you want" then it doesn't really, but I begged for a pivot. I really wanted Alianna gone. I was not bluffing.

Are Dunnstral/Radical Rat all consensus scumreads? If they are, then I'm the reason why. You can't argue that I followed the crowd with my scumreads.

I think it's helpful to assume which way people will vote. Today will come down to individual votes.

[furtiveglance]

The other main point I had planned to bring up about furtive was that their progression on me was odd. They pivoted onto me very quickly and just decided their mind was made up. Perhaps I'm placing too much weight on past games, but this is not what I would expect from someone who has misread me before. I was going to say the unvote was opportunistic, but after re-reading the post I don't think I can say that with any certainty.

I see that furtive posted some other stuff, so I'm going to read through that now.

Is this the lost scumcase of old?

You have scumcred in this game for a few reasons:
1) Suspicious nature (your fault, happens every game)
2) Counterwagon to town d1 (who was scumreading you hard)
3) I could only think of 2 reasons but wanted to use rule of three for persuasion.

You're hard to read as a player. If you're town the game makes sense to me, but if you're scum it still makes sense. Other players are easier to read, so I'm more confident on them being town (or more suspicious of them). I'd like to know what you think of Radical Rat in particular. I get the feeling we'll be looking hard at Radical Rat's interactions with people later in the game, whether that's tomorrow or day 4.

[furtiveglance]

And the way furtive has just hyperfocused on "Well, eliminating Town, that's scummy" to the exclusion of all other circumstances is just... Bad.

It's exactly why I initially sussed him for saying we should just quickhammer whoever leads a Town wagon. And sure, that was a joke that I'd misinterpreted, and yet here is that same philosophy being pushed seriously.

Look at the content of the game so far in simple terms.

It's been: No eliminate after some people wanted me gone (I have inside knowledge that I'm town), Titus (town) eliminated instead of Alianna in a close vote, Goldfish is chosen to be informed as a consensus townread.

The most important event is the elimination. Usually town want to vote out mafia and mafia want to vote out town. So yes, the most useful analysis I can give is that the Titus wagon is scummier than non-Titus voters. You're trying to muddy the waters by using the intricacies of this particular setup to make people think we should scumread people who defended town and townread people who voted town, it's in direct contradiction with the law of mafia. You are under arrest.

[furtiveglance]

And the way furtive has just hyperfocused on "Well, eliminating Town, that's scummy" to the exclusion of all other circumstances is just... Bad.

It's exactly why I initially sussed him for saying we should just quickhammer whoever leads a Town wagon.

And sure, that was a joke that I'd misinterpreted, and yet here is that same philosophy being pushed seriously.

Is it really though? Furtive isn't exactly arguing in favour of quickhammering...does your logic here suggest a player cannot push for the elimination of someone who was on the Titus wagon? Clearly there's some misguided town on there but it's pretty conceivable that someone from the mafia might have gone on there, or shown interest in eliminating Titus at some point, no?

Malcolm you've townread Radical Rat all game - 333 for instance. Has this changed? Can you vote Radical Rat today?

[furtiveglance]

I'm trying to be realistic and practical. I can't help you with vibes. Is it possible that you don't like my vibes regardless of alignment?

Absolutely yes. It's also possible I have bias as a result of this and then paying a little more attention than I should be to parts of your post

Ok. Considering that I think you're town, are you willing to put vibes aside and work with me?

[furtiveglance]

It's not as simple as 1 dead town vs 2, we can't No Eliminate after Day 1 and even numbers is better for mafia so vote the nightkill + miscondemn + nightkill = 2 mafia in 6 = good for mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Pivot.

VOTE: RadicalRat

[furtiveglance]

On second thought, the fact that your thoughts have been so all-over-the-place today is probably town-indicative.

UNVOTE:

I'll see myself out now.

Why do I do this to myself?

I felt like the Furtive wagon developed incredibly quickly, but not sure I'm keen on Alianna then jumping off the wagon so soon again, strikes me as potentially panicky scum not wanting to be responsible for a miselim if Furtive does come back town if/when they get put out.

Their reasoning here that Furtive's thoughts are all over the place...doesn't exactly strike me as completely true either? I think Furtive's been open to other ideas within their PoE but I don't exactly think their thoughts have been incredibly contradictory for the most part, they have been pretty clear on where they've sided on most major issues in the game.

No, I townread Alianna for this. Scum would probably plan where they wanted to push and not do this. To me it just seems like Alianna's actually thinking about the game.

I agree with this take. Cat's been making a lot of sense lately. I know they see Malcolm/RR. I'm very interested to see what Malcolm thinks about RR.

[furtiveglance]

Explain why I should vote for Radical Rat
Most of your case seems to be that they are paired with me, which I don't agree with

They're scummy in a vacuum.

Peep the readslist in 281.

It's this:
Flea, Dunnstral
Malcolm, Titus
Alianna
Cat, Goldfish, furtive

Then, they vote me for a bit - after scumreading me on page 1 for nothing and doubling down afterwards based on my 'reactions', but when it becomes clear the choice is Titus or Alianna they vote Titus saying 'this needs to happen' - 419, whatever that means.

This is despite Titus being higher up than Alianna on their list. It's why I considered Alianna/Radical Rat a likely scumteam (and still think it's possible).

Then voting to inform Alianna in 576 struck me as really strange. No one was ever going to go for Alianna there. It looks to me like Radical Rat knows they've been playing too safe and does something 'wacky' for the sake of it, because it's something scum might not do.

Their poe is apparently now me/Malcolm/Cat, who are three fairly obvious town to me.

Look at how Goldfish was bottom of the list in 281 ^^ and has been forgotten about because I and others are hard townreading them. It stinks of scum not wanting to cause a fuss and amending their reads in this way. They even voted to inform Goldfish in 657. Why would you give an apparent scumread this ability?

All in all Radical Rat's play has not been consistent and looks like lazy scum doing what they can get away with, including jumping on my wagon at the earliest opportunity. Why didn't they start the vote on me? They obviously want to hide in the middle and avoid responsibility if I flip.

This entire post is incredibly misrepresentative.

Yeah, my reads changed after I posted that readslist based on events occurring in the game. I stopped townreading and started scumreading Titus after she made her push on Dunnstral for bad reasons that I believed she should know better on. I made that perfectly clear when it happened, I didn't just suddenly vote her out of nowhere, and I even explained it again for you specifically when you complained about it the first time.

Goldfish too, while I wasn't as explicit about her, I obviously was not scumreading her anymore. I thought her early play was a bit odd, I had her low on the list for that, but as the game's progressed, she looks better. A lot of that comes down to others looking scummier, part of it is because she was early on the Titus wagon which I don't think scum would have done for already stated reasons, but to accuse me of voting to inform a scumread because of an outdated D1 readslist is just nonsensical.


And for everyone else, this kind of thing is exactly what I'm talking about with my scumreading furtive. This isn't just wrong, it's actively malicious.

I don't think malicious is quite appropriate here. I don't even think misrepresentative is. All you're doing in this post is explaining your actions retrospectively.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think you ever said why you changed your mind on Goldfish previously, but if you did I missed it.

[furtiveglance]

I have things to say that must wait until tomorrow.

Will you give us any hints?

I can't think of anything important to the game that you can't say today. Can you give us a clue?

[furtiveglance]

I have things to say that must wait until tomorrow.

Will you give us any hints?

Suffice to say, I have opinions about why the Inform was chosen, and who might have been BPed, but I don't want to elaborate any further on that until we actually get the information. Otherwise, in the hypothetical scenario that you turn out to be scum, you could tailor your answers to either match or counter my expectations, and then the analysis wouldn't be useful anymore

Ok this is meaningless. Does anyone understand or value this?

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Malcolm isn't really on the table right now. Is there a reason why you're not engaging with the me/RR wagons?

A lot of your play has been self-defence, like why you voted Titus. It doesn't look good or towny.

[furtiveglance]

But Radical Rat recently clarified that they townread Goldfish, remember?

[furtiveglance]

Ok, the time is now to vote Radical Rat if you want to keep me alive, and vice versa. I'll be online for a couple of hours and then I'll be asleep.

I really think Radical Rat flips red and unlocks the whole game for us.

[furtiveglance]

Alianna when Radical Rat flips, we will look for their partner. If you don't want to be scumread tomorrow, now is your chance to vote them and put the spotlight on Flea/Dunnstral.

[furtiveglance]

Also, if Goldfish/Malcolm could vote for RR that would be great. I get the feeling I'm a townread of you both - so if you want me to stay in the game vote with me.

[furtiveglance]

You have 5 hours.

[furtiveglance]

I'm giving my honest projection of what will happen in the next gameday.

[furtiveglance]

Assuming Radical Rat is mafia, I'd say Alianna is probably clear town from Associatives. I'd clear the entire wagon.

[furtiveglance]

I can happily say that I can't see a solve without you.

[furtiveglance]

I'm probably gone if you're town.

[furtiveglance]

The thread reopened, cool.
I understand that I'll be under suspicion today, I'll do my best to survive today and lead town to a successful elimination.
I thought Flea was a bit suspicious, but I suppose they were townier at the end of d1 when mafia chose the kill.
I'm sure Radical Rat will have something to say post-game and I admit I've played pretty badly in leading their miselim, but apart from that I don't think I've been far off the scumteam.

[furtiveglance]

I already thought Malcolm was town, and I still think Goldfish is town even though they the confirm is one-way.

That leaves [Alianna, Dunnstral, Cat.Jpeg].

I can see either Alianna or Cat being town, so Dunnstral is mafia in either scenario. I'll probably push Dunnstral today.

[furtiveglance]

Hello Alianna, shall we do some real time interaction?

1) Do you buy that Goldfish is telling the truth?

2) What do you think of a Dunnstral/Cat.Jpeg team?

3) What are your thoughts on who we should track today?

[furtiveglance]

Three things.

1. We’re screwed.
2. Goldie, results?
3. furtive, you have some

explaining

to do.

I don't think we're necessarily screwed. As for my explaining, go back and read my scumcase of Radical Rat. Their reads changed and I couldn't see a natural thought progression, I thought they were mafia. That's the only time I've been wrong so far, I was right on Titus and townread Flea (mostly).

[furtiveglance]

Three things.

1. We’re screwed.
2. Goldie, results?
3. furtive, you have some

explaining

to do.

1. Yes
2. I'm delighted to inform you all that Malcomtucker is aligned with the town. He's officially the only person I trust now.
3. Furtive I wanna here this. Have you betrayed our townblock?


This track ability is kinda weird because we are meant to use it to find scum but considering it's el/melo we don't want to track a player we think is scum we want to eliminate them immediately.

You have a scumpool of 4. [Alianna, Dunnstral, Cat.Jpeg, Me].

All game I have aligned myself with you, Malcolm and Flea. For me to be scum I'd have to have scumread my partner quite hard throughout the game (with the exception of Cat whom I did lean town on yesterday, because they were also scumreading the other people in my scumpool at the time and seemed to have similar thoughts).

[furtiveglance]

Every person who has died has voted for furtive at some point

So you think I killed Titus pre-game knowing they would vote for me Day 1, and killed Flea Night 1 knowing they would vote for me Day 2?

[furtiveglance]

If you want to eliminate me, the game ends. Scum won't have put me as the nightkill because I'm the most likely miselimination today.

[furtiveglance]

I don't really care who gets tracked, Cat is probably fine. My worry is that people won't want to vote for someone who we're tracking, so we're kind of giving a sus player (sus enough that we track them) immunity from being voted in Elo, which seems dumb.

[furtiveglance]

The more important thing is the elimination.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah, we should eliminate Dunnstral. They'll vote for me, everyone else take sides.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah, we should eliminate Dunnstral. They'll vote for me, everyone else take sides.

Who do you think is their partner?

You or cat, I'm assuming Goldfish is legit.

[furtiveglance]

@Goldie and anyone else who hasn’t voiced an answer to this yet

Who do you think is the scumteam?

It's Cat/Dunnstral. or it's You/Dunnstral. or You/Cat. or Goldfish/Malcolm (?).

This is all very confusing, I went back to Cat/Dunnstral but their interactions don't look paired from early on. Maybe it's just clever distancing.

Regardless of all of that, we don't need to solve the game today, just vote one mafia. If we Track Cat and Elim Dunnstral, it's probably a town win.

[furtiveglance]

@Goldie and anyone else who hasn’t voiced an answer to this yet

Who do you think is the scumteam?

We should decide who we are eliming before we decide who to track.
I townread you and furtive. I'm sus of dunnstral as an individual but don't see who their partner could be. That leaves Goldfish and Malcolm as absurd as that might sound. I think I want to eliminate goldfish because she's scum and in the case she isnt scum she's probably the NK so its not an instant loss. I know she would not shy away from trying to get herself informed and pulling something like this as scum.

I feel as though they planned to get Goldfish informed and pocket Furtive and have goldfish say that Malcolm is the Bulletproof. I think they made someone else, a real townie, the actual bulletproof though just in case goldfish wasnt informed. This is a bit of a conspiracy theory and I'll read some stuff before I commit to this.

VOTE: Malcolm

This is a worrying scenario. I don't scumread Malcolm at all, nor do I think scum would claim an innocent result on their partner. I definitely need to look again at Goldfish, they've had an easy ride this game.

[furtiveglance]

Hmm, the fact I've been cleared does make me wonder here if scum are trying to potentially misdirect me, or if they were at the start of the last turn when they picked me to have my alignment given. Given my main suspect has been Dunn (and still is based on play alone), it does make me wonder if Furtive is perhaps mafia and wanted to clear me since I'd largely TR'd them so far.

On the last vote, their suspicion of Radical Rat was at least consistent and so it wasn't a purely opportunistic vote - but I don't think there was anyone on the wagon who was necessarily all that opportunistic, but that doesn't rule out scum of course - quite possible for a scum player to have made a concerted push on Radical Rat early on in the hope it would go through at some point. But I don't think Furtive's continual suspicion there makes them look any better, is what I'm saying. Cat, Alianna and Goldfish all gave solid reasons for voting Radical Rat out even though I personally got townie vibes for them.

Personally I'd want us to track either Alianna or Cat here. Alianna's had fleeting suspicion throughout the game but it faded away a bit on D2. My own clear gives me some doubt but I still think Alianna/Dunn is a very possible team. Alianna had some suspicion on Dunn in D2 and then just gradually backed away from it. On Cat, I think their play was a lot more solid and felt quite townie on D2, but very much in a way that would make me worry it's mafia playing a clever game here.

Mafia had to pick someone who wasn't going to be eliminated (otherwise they reduce their possible miselimination options), and you've been widely townread (apart from by Cat). It's probably as simple as that. As for you townreading me, 1) appreciate it and 2) there must be reasons that you townread me.

[furtiveglance]

I suppose at this point in the game if mafia are under pressure Furtive could look to sacrifice Dunn. Or am I overthinking it there? Given gameplay/me being confirmed as town I really struggle to see a Dunn/Alianna team despite having suspected both of them individually.

We're both trying to 'sacrifice' each other above all else. To me it looks like the game is at stake.

[furtiveglance]

Kind of spewing out thoughts a bit because this is a confusing place to be at in this point in the game. Scum doing a good job making me doubt myself/my reads here.

Right now it feels a bit like that yeah. Most likely in postgame we'll be saying "Yeah Dunnstral was suspicious all game and Cat threw us off with the distancing" or something similar.

[furtiveglance]

I already thought Malcolm was town, and I still think Goldfish is town even though they the confirm is one-way.

That leaves [Alianna, Dunnstral, Cat.Jpeg].

I can see either Alianna or Cat being town, so Dunnstral is mafia in either scenario. I'll probably push Dunnstral today.

For when you're on Furtive - interested to hear any updated thoughts re this. Dunn/Cat could have been feasible aside from some early game squabbling, but Dunn's early track vote for Cat D3 doesn't strike me as particularly conductive for mafia. You'd think mafia would at least want to make an attempt to shift the track onto town, no? Unless mafia think it's advantageous to have one of their own tracked because it basically removes them from the elimination pool? That's the only way I could see them as a team here.

Yeah this gives me pause as well. I previously considered Alianna/Dunnstral, but I've been townreading Alianna individually more as the game's gone on.

If I forget about associatives for a second, the bad vibes come from Dunnstral. And the other mafia isn't really giving off bad vibes right now.

[furtiveglance]

Mafia did not have to pick informed at all.

True, but Track is quite powerful and so is Watch. I think giving away a confirmed town is less risky than outting a confirmed mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Also remember in your above scenario Dunn needs to be scum of course. Even if Cat is actually mafia, does the track not end up being useless if we don't hit scum during the vote?

Can you see Alianna/Cat?

I can't at the moment, their interactions look like scum!Cat/town!Alianna to me. They don't look paired at all, nor do I scumread either of them strongly enough to vote them over Dunnstral.

[furtiveglance]

Hmm, the fact I've been cleared does make me wonder here if scum are trying to potentially misdirect me, or if they were at the start of the last turn when they picked me to have my alignment given. Given my main suspect has been Dunn (and still is based on play alone), it does make me wonder if Furtive is perhaps mafia and wanted to clear me since I'd largely TR'd them so far.

On the last vote, their suspicion of Radical Rat was at least consistent and so it wasn't a purely opportunistic vote - but I don't think there was anyone on the wagon who was necessarily all that opportunistic, but that doesn't rule out scum of course - quite possible for a scum player to have made a concerted push on Radical Rat early on in the hope it would go through at some point. But I don't think Furtive's continual suspicion there makes them look any better, is what I'm saying. Cat, Alianna and Goldfish all gave solid reasons for voting Radical Rat out even though I personally got townie vibes for them.

Personally I'd want us to track either Alianna or Cat here. Alianna's had fleeting suspicion throughout the game but it faded away a bit on D2. My own clear gives me some doubt but I still think Alianna/Dunn is a very possible team. Alianna had some suspicion on Dunn in D2 and then just gradually backed away from it. On Cat, I think their play was a lot more solid and felt quite townie on D2, but very much in a way that would make me worry it's mafia playing a clever game here.

Mafia had to pick someone who wasn't going to be eliminated (otherwise they reduce their possible miselimination options), and you've been widely townread (apart from by Cat). It's probably as simple as that.

As for you townreading me, 1) appreciate it and 2) there must be reasons that you townread me.

I've TR'd you so far because even when you've been wrong I feel like you've been trying to drive the game forward or come up with solves when others have perhaps been more content to sit back. My issue now is - you were wrong in a way that's been beneficial to scum, and I now need to work out if that was genuine townie being wrong or scum successfully managing to sway our opinions.

The way I see it, I probably haven't been that wrong (having scumread Dunnstral all game) and got unlucky with Radical Rat.

[furtiveglance]

Be as wary as you see fit, I explained why I townread you early.

[furtiveglance]

Like I said, I don't mind who gets tracked. If people are then planning to eliminate me, it's pointless anyway.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[furtiveglance]

I know I was wrong before. But this time, I think I'm right. I mean I thought I was right last time as well. But yeah. I'm town, and if Dunnstral's town we lose anyway because they vote me, so I'm voting Dunnstral and recommend others to as well

[furtiveglance]

Essentially I suppose my split is between Dunn who I've suspected of being mafia for most of the game based on their play thus far, and Furtive who I've largely TR'd based on their play but who would potentially align as mafia alongside Cat given where the game has gone. I suppose it's a bit heart vs head - my gut read has largely been Dunn, albeit with posts/evidence to back it up, but my head is telling me a Cat/Furtive team here makes sense.

There's a world where I can see Furtive making the kill on the basis they were a likely elimination, so they wouldn't be tracked once they picked that power, and we'd get no info on Cat being mafia, if I'm reading correctly into how that works. Once the push was made for Cat to be tracked they weren't necessarily too unhappy with that because in this scenario Cat didn't make the kill anyway. From there the goal would be to push for a townie to be eliminated, whether it be Dunn/Goldfish, which would allow them to win the game. And even if Furtive does get eliminated, they have an insurance policy they can fall back on where Cat is still in the game, but is perhaps TR'd.

I also think there's an argument where this works alongside me being picked as the confirmed townie overnight, because I'd been aligning with Furtive on some views, and while I'd had some suspicions of Cat early game I'd stated I felt like their play was reasonable last turn. In this scenario they'd be hoping I stick to voting for Dunn, and if Cat eventually moves onto that wagon as well they only need one more of Goldfish/Alianna to get onboard and push through the elimination.

I'm going to vote for Furtive at the moment, although obviously this is subject to change - I'll case Dunn again soon to see where I stand on them because I'm still wary to let them through this turn knowing we'd potentially be done for if they're scum. But right now a Cat/Furtive team is starting to seem more feasible to me based on current play.

VOTE: FurtiveGlance

On the mechanics, if there's 1 mafia alive they have to do the nightkill.

As for the game, I've created more associatives than Dunnstral by being more open with reads, they haven't been that vocal. Look at their trajectory. After voting me d1, they voted Titus for 'lying about them' - which was just sussing them for coasting. Then they omgussed you day 2. Do you really think that's towny play?

Yes me and Cat have had similar takes this game, including pushing Radical Rat together. I would argue they're scummier than I am for pairing RR with you, whereas I always had Dunnstral (and Alianna) in the mix.

As the (pretty much) confirmed town, you'll lead this vote, so if you stay on me others will follow. I urge you to reconsider. For me, it'll be disappointing to lose after trying my best to be active and give reads, more than most people here it has to be said, especially to lose to Dunnstral who has mostly twiddled their thumbs and omgussed suspicion when there was need to. But yeah I led on town so I can understand being voted.

From your point of view, I'm betting it'll feel pretty disappointing to have been right all game (on Dunnstral) and not stuck to your guns when it mattered.

[furtiveglance]

I do want to hear from Furtive re the above though - they think Dunn is scum, so in this case who do they think is the partner? I don't believe they are particularly confident on that at the moment (and it's one of the things that's making me doubt my read too).

I don't think it matters who the partner is right now. If we do flip Dunnstral (red or we lose), we then either get a clear or a guilty on Cat. If Cat is clear tomorrow I'd vote Alianna. Simple as that, game done.

[furtiveglance]

I do want to hear from Furtive re the above though - they think Dunn is scum, so in this case who do they think is the partner? I don't believe they are particularly confident on that at the moment (and it's one of the things that's making me doubt my read too).

I don't think it matters who the partner is right now.

If we do flip Dunnstral (red or we lose), we then either get a clear or a guilty on Cat

. If Cat is clear tomorrow I'd vote Alianna. Simple as that, game done.

True...it's just getting the flip right that inherently worries me. The idea that you/Cat have managed to get a solid grip on the game, forcing through your elim to then try and pocket me by confirming me as town feels quite compelling. But then I do worry I'm potentially overthinking it as well, which can become a risk of its own.

I feel like me/Cat has now become this holy grail for some people now. It doesn't work, even for the simple reason that Dunnstral isn't town. If you look at why we're paired, it's because I led on Radical Rat and Cat then joined me. I townread (past tense) Cat for this specific reason, they were voting with me. Before that I thought they were suspicious. I think Cat/Dunnstral is the most likely partnership right now.

If you approach this game through associative logic, then perhaps me/Cat is an easy solve. But you need to look at who is actually scummy individually as well - Dunnstral is the most scummy person in a vacuum. I would argue I'm not scummy at all individually.

[furtiveglance]

Essentially I suppose my split is between Dunn who I've suspected of being mafia for most of the game based on their play thus far, and Furtive who I've largely TR'd based on their play but who would potentially align as mafia alongside Cat given where the game has gone. I suppose it's a bit heart vs head - my gut read has largely been Dunn, albeit with posts/evidence to back it up, but my head is telling me a Cat/Furtive team here makes sense.

There's a world where I can see Furtive making the kill on the basis they were a likely elimination, so they wouldn't be tracked once they picked that power, and we'd get no info on Cat being mafia, if I'm reading correctly into how that works. Once the push was made for Cat to be tracked they weren't necessarily too unhappy with that because in this scenario Cat didn't make the kill anyway. From there the goal would be to push for a townie to be eliminated, whether it be Dunn/Goldfish, which would allow them to win the game. And even if Furtive does get eliminated, they have an insurance policy they can fall back on where Cat is still in the game, but is perhaps TR'd.

I also think there's an argument where this works alongside me being picked as the confirmed townie overnight, because I'd been aligning with Furtive on some views, and while I'd had some suspicions of Cat early game I'd stated I felt like their play was reasonable last turn. In this scenario they'd be hoping I stick to voting for Dunn, and if Cat eventually moves onto that wagon as well they only need one more of Goldfish/Alianna to get onboard and push through the elimination.

I'm going to vote for Furtive at the moment, although obviously this is subject to change - I'll case Dunn again soon to see where I stand on them because I'm still wary to let them through this turn knowing we'd potentially be done for if they're scum. But right now a Cat/Furtive team is starting to seem more feasible to me based on current play.

VOTE: FurtiveGlance

On the mechanics, if there's 1 mafia alive they have to do the nightkill.

As for the game, I've created more associatives than Dunnstral by being more open with reads, they haven't been that vocal. Look at their trajectory. After voting me d1, they voted Titus for 'lying about them' - which was just sussing them for coasting. Then they omgussed you day 2. Do you really think that's towny play?

Yes me and Cat have had similar takes this game, including pushing Radical Rat together. I would argue they're scummier than I am for pairing RR with you, whereas I always had Dunnstral (and Alianna) in the mix.

As the (pretty much) confirmed town, you'll lead this vote, so if you stay on me others will follow. I urge you to reconsider. For me, it'll be disappointing to lose after trying my best to be active and give reads, more than most people here it has to be said, especially to lose to Dunnstral who has mostly twiddled their thumbs and omgussed suspicion when there was need to. But yeah I led on town so I can understand being voted.

From your point of view, I'm betting it'll feel pretty disappointing to have been right all game (on Dunnstral) and not stuck to your guns when it mattered.

Fair enough on the first point re the kill, forgetting that. You/Cat could still easily be a team, but that theory of mine doesn't work so can be ignored.

Re the bolded - this is admittedly what worries me. You'll remember we played one game together in the past and I faced a similar quandary towards the end of the game, gut-read told me one player, head told me the other, with solid reasoning behind voting for either of them. Your responses here, a bit like Dunn's, feels quite reasonable and well-thought out...there's a part of that which makes me wonder if you're mafia trying to calmly keep me onside but by the same token you could just be approaching things rationally as town here, and as you say if we're right on Dunn would be frustrating to throw that away.

Are you saying I'm too calm? Like I said, if we lose because you vote me I'll accept my share of the responsibility. I thought Radical Rat was scum and they weren't. On the flipside of that I feel entitled to a bit more towncred than Dunnstral because they've literally done nothing but cover their own back all game, and it's lazy scumplay.

[furtiveglance]

I think Dunnstral's been way more careful than I have. I've been loud and outspoken.

[furtiveglance]

I want to convince you, I don't know what else you want me to say.

[furtiveglance]

From your point of view, I'm betting it'll feel pretty disappointing to have been right all game (on Dunnstral) and not stuck to your guns when it mattered.

This is shameless manipulation/ATE

I'm just being frank with Malcolm.

[furtiveglance]

I do want to hear from Furtive re the above though - they think Dunn is scum, so in this case who do they think is the partner? I don't believe they are particularly confident on that at the moment (and it's one of the things that's making me doubt my read too).

I don't think it matters who the partner is right now.

If we do flip Dunnstral (red or we lose), we then either get a clear or a guilty on Cat

. If Cat is clear tomorrow I'd vote Alianna. Simple as that, game done.

True...it's just getting the flip right that inherently worries me. The idea that you/Cat have managed to get a solid grip on the game, forcing through your elim to then try and pocket me by confirming me as town feels quite compelling. But then I do worry I'm potentially overthinking it as well, which can become a risk of its own.

I'm not scummy in a vacuum. I had one wrong scumread and pushed it to a flip. Apart from that my reads have been good.
I feel like me/Cat has now become this holy grail for some people now. It doesn't work, even for the simple reason that Dunnstral isn't town. If you look at why we're paired, it's because I led on Radical Rat and Cat then joined me. I townread (past tense) Cat for this specific reason, they were voting with me. Before that I thought they were suspicious. I think Cat/Dunnstral is the most likely partnership right now.

If you approach this game through associative logic, then perhaps me/Cat is an easy solve. But you need to look at who is actually scummy individually as well - Dunnstral is the most scummy person in a vacuum. I would argue I'm not scummy at all individually.

The reasons you've stated aren't why people thing its you/cat.

It's because you're scummy in a vaccum, and your associations with most of the living players prevent you from being scum together, therefore if you are scum it must be with cat,

[furtiveglance]

I do want to hear from Furtive re the above though - they think Dunn is scum, so in this case who do they think is the partner? I don't believe they are particularly confident on that at the moment (and it's one of the things that's making me doubt my read too).

I don't think it matters who the partner is right now.

If we do flip Dunnstral (red or we lose), we then either get a clear or a guilty on Cat

. If Cat is clear tomorrow I'd vote Alianna. Simple as that, game done.

True...it's just getting the flip right that inherently worries me. The idea that you/Cat have managed to get a solid grip on the game, forcing through your elim to then try and pocket me by confirming me as town feels quite compelling. But then I do worry I'm potentially overthinking it as well, which can become a risk of its own.

I'm not scummy in a vacuum. I had one wrong scumread and pushed it to a flip. Apart from that my reads have been good.

I feel like me/Cat has now become this holy grail for some people now. It doesn't work, even for the simple reason that Dunnstral isn't town. If you look at why we're paired, it's because I led on Radical Rat and Cat then joined me. I townread (past tense) Cat for this specific reason, they were voting with me. Before that I thought they were suspicious. I think Cat/Dunnstral is the most likely partnership right now.

If you approach this game through associative logic, then perhaps me/Cat is an easy solve. But you need to look at who is actually scummy individually as well - Dunnstral is the most scummy person in a vacuum. I would argue I'm not scummy at all individually.

The reasons you've stated aren't why people thing its you/cat.

It's because you're scummy in a vaccum, and your associations with most of the living players prevent you from being scum together, therefore if you are scum it must be with cat,

Bold part was meant to be original reply.

[furtiveglance]

I don't think I've been manipulative. It's my duty as town to try to be persuasive.

[furtiveglance]

Cat/Dunnstral.