Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Irrelephant11]

I think scum!skitter freaks out less here/doesn’t feel the need to pick her own coalition when everyone wants her in anyway
HEAL: skitter

[Irrelephant11]

I think Datisi/ari as a scum team or one of fire/Menalque with one of NK15/mala are my only remaining worries.

[Irrelephant11]

I know that’s six people but I can’t kill all paranoia so I guess I’m just describing the very few sets of four I’d like to leave out (ari/dat/NK15/mala, fire/NK15/mala/Menalque, could maybe swap myself in if necessary)

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all

[Irrelephant11]

Skitter should I sheep you or pick for you

[Irrelephant11]

Datisi who’s std’s partner if you’re not so sure he’s town?

[Irrelephant11]

*potential partner, not asking for a scumcase, etc

[Irrelephant11]

I townread ari more than datisi/think datisi is more likey to be/more capable of pocketing ari than the other way around
Fire/menalque feel like my potential blindspots
Rereading menalque frantically so skitter and I can agree on a coalition before she can’t play anymore (I also might not be around at deadline)

[Irrelephant11]

Fair, just trying to get you to consider that a scumread on std might not make sense if you’re townreading his potential partners (a la fire’ good point that ari could only really be scum with towny players)

[Irrelephant11]

Can you quickly browse his ISO with my towncase summary in mind? Time’s running out thank u

[Irrelephant11]

Can you quickly browse his ISO with my towncase summary in mind? Time’s running out thank u


Alright I’ve really been trying to be a team player but here’s a list I have confidence in and I think y’all should sheep me, here’s why:
Me <- not arguing my own towniness again, lmk if this is your issue
StD <- I don’t see a world where scum and I have all the same thoughts for an entire phase, I think my townread is stronger than datisi’s “ehhh I don’t see it” read. See previous towncases
Skitter <- Is her current play something she could manage to do as scum? Yes. Would she play this out as a paranoia-filled, somewhat frantic, changing her mind a bunch of times chaotic player when the end result includes her and wins the phase as scum regardless? Doubt it. Scum-her could sheep and amplify… any of us really and kill the coalition so I think she’d do that instead.
Aristeia <- has played kind of a slick game in terms of keeping her hands relatively clean, but I would be pretty surprised at her/datisi scumteam, and fire’s point that she’s probably only scum with someone else widely townread is good reason to include her. I can pull some posts I thought made her pretty towny att if need be
Datisi – I think he’s made multiple cases on other slots that come from town, I agree with aristeia that him pulling ari into coalitions is townish (because the 1v1 later would be hard). Reads move around a lot in a townie-doing-sorting way, doesn’t read as super aligned with nk or mala (nobody is really like, *cleared* from being nk or mala’s partner but datisi’s got a couple unaligned moments with each, and both of them are suggesting datisi/ari scum cases).

Scum possibilities:
Menalque – I’ve just decided I think menalque is scum. I’m not sure anything in this ISO shows deep thought except a townread on me. Multiple times he does a “mm maybe I’ll explain later” and if/when “later” comes, the answer kinda sucks. I was mostly townreading menalque for tone and confidence but I think it’s a bad ISO in reread. Reads came reallllly slow to menalque this game & I think that’s kind of unreasonable, there was lots to read into by like, page 3. Tons of questions that don’t seem to go anywhere, and multiple instances of seeming to be more interested in “why are you paranoid of ____” than in, you know, sorting anyone.
Fireisredsir – I think he’s town, if I had to guess, but I also think there’s some reasons to scumread him. Most of my read on fire is based on how he’s treated std/me slots, and when I thought about it deeply I thought it could definitely come from town. We could theoretically make sense as a team, looking from the outside, though definitely a bold team to just loudly agree on almost everything. But my main reason to keep fire out of the coalition upon further reflection is that I think his reads have been shockingly stable. I think this is a scumtell in most mafia games because scum want to be read as internally consistent, so when they get accused of scumreading someone opportunistically (for example) they can point to earlier posts and say “see! I’ve always thought this! therefore I’m not making it up and it’s real”… but like, townies usually change their mind a lot, especially in this setup. So I think it’s scum-indicative that the reads haven’t changed really all game. But like… towniest of the four I’m leaving out
Nk/mala – sorry if you’re town, I don’t think I could realistically get to a townread on you this phase

[Irrelephant11]

I did the word document formatting fail again, sorry for big blocks of text!

[Irrelephant11]

I could put fire in instead of std if I’m shouted down by enough people. Fire would at least have earned it by way of effort

[Irrelephant11]

HURT: all
HEAL: me
Skitter
Datisi
Aristeia
Save the dragons

[Irrelephant11]

Not sure what’s towny about menalque anymore

[Irrelephant11]

Menalque has only posted more than nk15 and malakittens, numerically. Fun fact

I think the argument that mena would post more as scum if anyone had ever scumread him and didn’t post more because everybody townread him without needing to do extra work nearly nullifies that. Like he may not have been manipulative because he was seemingly a sure bet for the coalition

[Irrelephant11]

Menalque has only posted more than nk15 and malakittens, numerically. Fun fact

I think the argument that mena would post more as scum if anyone had ever scumread him and didn’t post more because everybody townread him without needing to do extra work nearly nullifies that. Like he may not have been manipulative because he was seemingly a sure bet for the coalition

getting in the coalition doesn't end the game tho, i think that he would have had to work harder to keep up with people towning it up in order to go the distance

Oh yeah
Still, I don’t think “isn’t playing hard, therefore town” is good logic in any setup

[Irrelephant11]

If you want my vote you need a stronger towncase on menalque

[Irrelephant11]

Intent to hammer soonish, can’t really talk much but trying to keep up

[Irrelephant11]

would be funny if after all this it is just nk/mala

[Irrelephant11]

Wait oh
Lol

[Irrelephant11]

its already hammered

RIP me trying to hammer. I signed up for a short game so please god don’t let this have another game phase

[Irrelephant11]

Welp. NK15 is there a chance you threw the game? Please say yes

[Irrelephant11]

I quit (metaphorically)

I’m v/la

until Monday @mod

[Irrelephant11]

Can we lim NK15

[Irrelephant11]

I fell asleep playing that heaven/hell game

[Irrelephant11]

At my in-laws and just trying to catch up on the thread so I have less to read later

I would love if it was menalque because then me & skitter & std were right

I think just like there’s 1-2 scum in the coalition there’s also 1-2 scum in those voting for it (I get that this is convenient for scum!me to say but what, five townies voted a failed coalition in that frantic end of day thing? Nah)

I think the non-coalition players - like all four of them - should be leading today.

I’d go menalque > skitter > datisi > aristeia currently but haven’t reread anything ok bye

[Irrelephant11]

Datisi can you stop whiteknighting menalque and make him play his own game? thank u

[Irrelephant11]

I effort a lot in all my games it’s compulsive. I haven’t played since 2019 fyi if you’re doing meta

I literally signed up to this game to play mafia for a week and walk away with a town win. Feeling sad but trying to stay optimistic

Fire if your scumread of me is significantly based on my post 427 then read this thread:

[Irrelephant11]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89344

I read that thread and decided in my next town game I would try some new stuff to defuse t/t arguments and create town cohesion. You’re scumreading my new town trick. I don’t think I’ve ever done such a graceful defuse thing as scum. Guess this is wifom coming from me but at least I can point to the reason I did that

[Irrelephant11]

Day 2 has strengthened my townread on Aristeia and my scumread on mena
Datisi and skitter are each, if scum, knocking it out of the park.

[Irrelephant11]

We are flipping Aristeia. If Ari is town, we are flipping skitter. If Ari is scum, we flip Datisi. Does anyone disagree?

Yes I absolutely disagree

i dont have enough from the two that aren't talking rn

Trust me I’ll have lots to say when not on v/la


Menalque has not posted in day 2. His entire ISO reads fake to me and skitter has him as locktown for not trying very hard. STD is semi-conftown and being entirely ignored! I’ve skimmed everything after 1333 because Datisi and skitter are pushing skitter for being inconsistent and thoughtless (does that sound like her scum game?) and skitter is pushing Datisi. Fire at one point suggested Menalque is my last-minute attempt to find a mislim inside the coalition which… lol I was trying to push Menalque out of the coalition att. I feel like everyone has lost their minds and refuses to even consider Occam’s razor: low-poster is scum. Like - at least consider it? I’ll write the same thing but in 900-word paragraphs if that’s the only way to get through to you people

[Irrelephant11]

EBWOP: “Skitter is pushing Datisi for lame reasons too imo”.

[Irrelephant11]

Occam’s razor: low-poster is scum.

so the scumteam is nk/mala and ydrasse is trolling us?

i'm like, i will consider scum!mena. but i need a bit more to actually convince me he's viable to be scum considering i feel like he has hit multiple towntells while he's been here...

Obviously not
but I do think the most likely team is [lowest poster in the coalition] + [lowest poster outside the coalition] AKA mena/nk15

I think the strongest point in town!std’s and scum!mena’s favor(s) is the competing wagons. The majority wagon flipped red, and I do currently think that’s a lot of scum points towards the 3 who were both in the coalition and voting for it. But then I think datisi and aristeia are town. So: Menalque. This is not my entire case, it’s just a major point nobody has brought up, full case will come tomorrow (or you know, read StD’s posts/interact with him like he might be seeing something you’re not, instead of waiting for me). @skitter and @datisi, you’ve both acknowledged at least one weird thing about menalque’s ISO recently iirc. Nobody is saying you have to lim him, just to give him more scrutiny than “until someone PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT I WILL NEVER VOTE THERE”

Oh also the only people pushing menalque this game day are
A. outside the coalition
B. Me (and I know I’m not scum)
Which makes the idea that he’s low-hanging fruit not ring true for me. YMMV

Tbh skitter suggesting menalque is the one place she’d basically never vote is the scummiest thing she’s done this game. I get a townread on menalque but also… is it TMI? Partners, which is why she wanted StD in instead? This is why skitter is 5% less town than datisi/aristeia. That said I don’t actually think skitter is scum at all, really.


This is what datisi/aristeia/skitter feel like imo.

[Irrelephant11]

btw a datisi/aristeia scumteam has written enough words that I concede to them. I’ll probably never vote for either on the basis that they’re the team, and my only response to paranoia of that team is to shove it down because I don’t feel like entertaining it. Catching them would involve too much work for something so unlikely.

[Irrelephant11]

I was ready day 1 to bet the game on me/skitter/datisi/aristeia/std being town and I still am

[Irrelephant11]

Lose motivation, hope I get NK’d, maybe try to re-evaluate if I’m still here d3

[Irrelephant11]

I was ready day 1 to bet the game on me/skitter/datisi/aristeia/std being town and I still am

What will you do if Menalque flips town?

What will you do if he flips red

[Irrelephant11]

STD is semi-conftown and being entirely ignored!

i felt this in my soul because i feel like i took effort to be less vibey and more analytically for the gamestate and i got mostly shot down and it made me feel small ngl so i appreciate you seeing me i know i'm being a little too emotional and need to step back but i did appreciate this so thank you

the fact you have the same scum read as i still means you're either pocketing me hard for no reason because i have no influence in this gamestate or we're kindred town and we may be onto something here so i'm thinking it's the latter

<3
Am town btw

[Irrelephant11]

the competing wagons.

the only people pushing menalque this game day are
A. outside the coalition
B. Me (and I know I’m not scum)

[Irrelephant11]

@skitter and @datisi, you’ve both acknowledged at least one weird thing about menalque’s ISO recently iirc. Nobody is saying you have to lim him, just to give him more scrutiny than “until someone PROVES BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT I WILL NEVER VOTE THERE”

I mean sure if someone has a compelling reason to think he's scum i'll look at it, but i havent seen anything compelling yet

the competing wagons.

the only people pushing menalque this game day are
A. outside the coalition
B. Me (and I know I’m not scum)

[Irrelephant11]

btw a datisi/aristeia scumteam has written enough words that I concede to them. I’ll probably never vote for either on the basis that they’re the team, and my only response to paranoia of that team is to shove it down because I don’t feel like entertaining it. Catching them would involve too much work for something so unlikely.

Yes ari i think i cant count irrel as a vote for you

I'm not 100% sure why you're clearing them so hard tho, neither is that level of town for me

Either could be scum. I’m just not considering them as a scumteam anymore. It's not based on logic, it's based on the amount of effort necessary to win if that's the scumteam

[Irrelephant11]

<3 std

Pedit and i dont think mena is the point of failure tho
And i'm not sure how that proves your point: if mena is scum with someone in the coalition, they'd be relatively satisifed with either the std/mena version, no?
And if he's scum with someone outside of the coalition, people outside of the coalition wouldnt be pushing him ... ?

which is why it's with NK15 (notice how he keeps coming up with scumteams and voting for the one in the coalition... except for when he said he thought it was mena/mala) or a very small chance it's you who won't vote him and voted for a coalition without him

[Irrelephant11]

can't remember if I'm voting him yet but VOTE: menalque

would love to not end this game day before I've reread things and made a stronger case/confirmed townreads tho

[Irrelephant11]

sue me!!!

on the phone with my lawyer

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: unvote
want to hear from mena

[Irrelephant11]

the general willingness from most of menalque's viable partners is certainly giving me pause
Really really really really really really really don't want him to be town though because almost every post I read from skitter, datisi, and aristeia feels so pure and solve-y and effort-y and TvT, to the point where I have started skimming them so I don't town-tunnel (is that thing?) too much on that trio. just being honest here.

I know there's stuff I need to reply to but I'm waiting till tomorrow, I really shouldn't even be spending time on MS today I'm so busy but like I said it's a compulsion

[Irrelephant11]

Menalque do you understand that mechanically we have to lim inside the coalition? There's guaranteed scum inside the coalition, while those outside the coalition could possibly be 4 townies

[Irrelephant11]

STD is semi-conftown and being entirely ignored!

i felt this in my soul because i feel like i took effort to be less vibey and more analytically for the gamestate and i got mostly shot down and it made me feel small ngl so i appreciate you seeing me i know i'm being a little too emotional and need to step back but i did appreciate this so thank you

the fact you have the same scum read as i still means you're either pocketing me hard for no reason because i have no influence in this gamestate or we're kindred town and we may be onto something here so i'm thinking it's the latter

I would be really impressed if StD wrote me this post as scum. Like, really impressed.

But I'll hear you out, Menalque. If you're town and StD is scum, why do you think the last second swap happened to get you into the coalition? Do you think scum got what they wanted there or no?

[Irrelephant11]

You actually make some good points, though I also think you make some bad ones. Like a big part of your read seems to require the least charitable meaning of some of StD's words. But town do that sometimes, especially when OMGUS-ing, so like I said I'm willing to hear you out.

I'll feel real bad if StD is scum because I've really fought for him but also on second thought, not that bad, because it's not like anyone else was voting for a scumless coalition Day 1 either even if he is scum


pedit: I mean I'm not voting outside the coalition, not sure if anyone else will. And it's not like I'm even asking you to not scumread StD, just find his partner if you're so sure it's him

"if I were wrong on StD it could be that NK15 was hammering to try and make us look aligned"..... I'll let you rethink this one on your own time

[Irrelephant11]

"if I were wrong on StD it could be that NK15 was hammering to try and make us look aligned"..... I'll let you rethink this one on your own time

Oh actually I misread you, ignore this.

[Irrelephant11]

what about this post makes it so hard for StD to write as scum?

Nothing about it is "hard" to write as scum

sidenote: what is with everyone's obsession on MS with sorting people by "hard to do as scum" vs "easy to do as scum"? The same stuff is hard and easy for both alignments most of the time. We should all be sorting by "more likely to be a thing this person does if they're scum than if they're town" vs "more likely to be a thing this person does if they're town than if they're scum". I think it's very unlikely that scum!StD thinks to humbly thank me for amplifying his voice.

what do you mean last second swap? you mean the NK15 hammer? I think if that's what you mean it should be p much clearing for a me/NK15 team

It's very much not clearing for a you/NK15 team. You can say it's done to frame you, but even in doing so, you acknowledge that it makes you look bad. Which it does.

[Irrelephant11]

You still here?

Do you have any partners for StD that feel likely to you? I'll even accept "Irrel" as an answer if that's where you're at, I just want to hear you talk it out. Or you could discuss how Day 2 has gone if you'd rather. You're pretty important to sort right now, I guess is what I'm saying, and you can make that easier by doing more solving

[Irrelephant11]

NK15 why did you think it was Aristeia at the start of the game day?

[Irrelephant11]

it's clearing for a me/NK15 team bc how the fuck does that team win in elo if NK15 hammers my coalition when we're both scum?

I don't know but if he hadn't you two might have just lost in the coalition phase, that's why it's damning. Why am I explaining this to you, you either genuinely didn't realize it as town or are playing dumb, it's not like I'll convince you why your play makes you scum

[Irrelephant11]

bleh I think menalque's entrance does feel towny actually but his actual *actions* (to try to lim outside the coalition) are pretty scummy with obvious scum motivation (e.g. the towny townies in the coalition are too towny to win against in a 1v1, both scum might be in the coalition, etc)

[Irrelephant11]

okay going back and rereading parts of day 2 that I skimmed earlier~

lol

I lol'd at 1378
I lol’d at 1421
I lol’d at 1447
I lol’d at 1471

i. would love a response from Mena to skitter's question in 1334

ii. 1340 reminded me I would love skitter to explain why std was her towniest read day 1

iii. @NK15 can you link some scummy posts of Aristeia's? No explanation needed, just some links. I don't want to count you and your reads out, esp. since I'm currently leaning toward a scumteam without you in it

iv.

like having std over mena isn't an indictment of mena

It sure did seem like you were upset at daystart that mena got in instead of std. Can you explain what about that made you feel annoyed, since you're confident mena isn't the reason the coalition failed? having std in the coalition instead would have had the same result if you're right.

v. skitter what is your read on me

vi. responding to skitter in 1378, mena scumcase coming soon! Today I hope I can write it out fully, but at the very least I will put all the reasons he's scum in one post.

vii.

i'm like, i will consider scum!mena. but i need a bit more to actually convince me he's viable to be scum considering i feel like he has hit multiple towntells while he's been here...

I find it notable that the two players townreading menalque are the two with (seemingly) the most experience with him. Could that be because you two are right and the rest of us are not seeing his obvious towntells, or because he's catering his scumplay to your meta expectations? (I'm guessing the latter currently, I think it's common for scum, me included, to play to the expectations they know others have of them, but then miss the expectations of players they don't know as well)

viii. 1394 makes sense to me as a progression fire had on datisi & I had similar feelings and anyway I think fire is pretty much definitely town and datisi is pretty towny today too.

ix. 1395 had me questioning my scumread on nk15 and also getting annoyed at potential-town-nk15 for how little he's played the game

x. I kinda believe skitter when she says in 1402 that her scum plan would not be to go for aristeia. That said, her theoretical scum plan included std in the coalition. Not sure what the logical end is to this thought train, sorry, my brain is boop.

xi. I kinda agree with aristeia in 1433 that nk15 is within his townrange, just based off really old memory. I wish I could 100% scumread him, but my gut is saying it’s not a 100% sure thing.

xii.

I mean ok so you're saying one of ur strongest pieces of evidence necessitates him being partnered with like exactly nk15/myself to work out?

And in the nk15 universe i honestly dont think its super likely that mena gets in in the first place (doesn't necessarily apply to the me universe i suppose).

Also per ari meta that isnt really how nk15 interacts with his partners either
Like if he's scum i think its with ari or dats

Pedit @irrel i sometimes have to pretend to work >.>

ATT I thought his potential scum partners, in order of likelihood, were NK15 > you > mala > datisi. Not sure I’d use that order anymore but at this point I still think it would be within that grouping.
I too think it’s unlikely mena gets in the coalition if he’s scum with nk15 but like… his and nk15’s votes sure did make it happen. If he’s scum I think we were gonna win until datisi/ari/fire decided they couldn’t get there on std.

xiii. Datisi has fine points for skitter being scum in 1442. Not exciting but I see the case, I read it, it makes sense.

xiv. 1450 is giving me the most hesitance about mena being scum out of anything. Definitely pulls the rug out from under one of my reasons for scumreading mena.

xv.

Nk15's vote should be alarming for everyone generally, and for irrel specifically, who thinks that's mena's partner

It was alarming to see, true.

xvi.

like nk15/mala/std contains max 1 mafia by mech so 2/3 town there at least.

and irrel is in your towncore last i checked? - if irrel is town it's a 3/4 town wagon or maybe even 4/4 town.

Hey yeah good point

xvii.

with every outside coalition person either already voting or willing to vote mena (fmpov everyone is, ig you could argue im faking willingness to vote, but w/e), either

1) someone is bussing
2) there's 2 scum in coalition
3) mena isn't scum

1 seems like a poor choice considering you aren't likely to really get much cred for it

2... maybe, i guess. purely on associations i feel like skitt or ari would be more likely than datisi/irrel? but on play i think those are town so idk

This is true but malakittens could have voted for distancing without trying to lim, but is currently not unvoting because at this point it would look suspicious

xviii.

I mean if you're scum and off coalition and everyone else off coalition wants to vote your scum partner I think you kind of just go with the flow?

Aristeia do you have any strong reads? I’m getting a little paranoid of the way you’re flitting around, pointing out logical inconsistencies and explaining people’s posts to each other… and meanwhile avoiding getting in fights with anyone except skitter who tried to lead a lim on you to start the day. Can you put down some hot takes that you stand by?

xix. I feel the same as std in everything he says below, and think the “not picky” point is esp good:

i dunno about nk15 but i'm feeling a little better about them now that they're not tunneled but i still don't know how i feel. i think they're wrong about ari and datisi and it's hard to reconcile that feeling but i've liked recent posting so i'm not so sure they're scum

[snip]

i don't know that [menalque] was picky other than not me, see below

If I need to change because we don’t have numbers tell me literally right now who I need to change it to

I’m not voting StD tho

as for the rest like maybe i can't argue how he'd behave i don't really know him but they're not super impactful arguments to me. i feel like some of it is nai he's been busy like have you asked yourself if scum!menalque just doesn't have enough thread presence here because he's been busy? [snip]

xx. Join me in enjoying this three post trajectory:

I am not certain but I'm heading in the direction where I think that this may be the best play

need to do due diligence on other slots too, but

I think that StD redding essentially solves the game?

[snip]
From your perspective, that means one scum in Skitter30/Datisi/Aristeia/irrelephant.
Who is it?

Fucked if I know

pedit: finally someone caught us, it's been exhausting putting up this front for so long

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: save the dragons
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: skitter30
HEAL: irrelephant11

i'm just vibing with irrelephant here, content seems very stream of conciousnessy in a way that scum would avoid for fear of revealing too much.

just a couple more for your collection

where i first tr irrelephant in post 121. Post 121.

and another reason i tr irrelephant

Yeah he left out multiple posts, not sure there's much reason to uhhhhhh argue about that

[Irrelephant11]

Aristeia I forgot to say: you're scum for using the light theme of MS. Dark theme only for us townies

[Irrelephant11]

I don't make the rules aristeia I just enforce them. Switch to dark theme or I WILL tunnel you

[Irrelephant11]

anyway I was gonna scumcase mena/nk15 but they did it themselves, lmk tomorrow if you need me to write one out, too

pedit: 3rd party

[Irrelephant11]

which fits with your play tbh

[Irrelephant11]

Not voting menalque yet because I think it could hammer w/o me online and I don't want skitter/datisi/anyone to feel like the day ended before they were ready, feels rude. But it's there in spirit

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like I promised it.

menalque case ig

Just like... reread EOD1. menalque loses all sense of reads when he has a chance into the coalition. NK15 loses all sense of reads when he has a chance to hammer a coalition with mena. Three of us tried really hard to get a coalition w/o menalque and it failed, but probably would have succeeded if scum had wanted it. menalque and nk15 are just haphazardly trying to find anyone limmable today. It's a wrap (I hope and pray)

[Irrelephant11]

tiger theme is amazing i just changed it to tiger theme and i'm living holy crap this hurts my eyes but i'm living for it

[Irrelephant11]

Hey busy day today, i'll catch up later tonight

wish I could be you, some of these posts are gonna be so fun to read for the first time

[Irrelephant11]

You have three votes on you

What do you think of NK15’s case on me/std as the team

[Irrelephant11]

And you know very well why I’m calling it out to you specifically

Me specifically? Or someone else

[Irrelephant11]

skitter stop reading mena based on his meta for sec

Are any of these things towny to you:
- having the scummiest player in the pl lolhammer you into the failed coalition
- voting yourself into a failed coalition that goes against your previously stated reads
- posting less than anyone else in the coalition by a long shot (in coalition setups especially, postcount has p much always been a useful metric, even if it's not always bottom-2-equals-scum. Because scum isn't fun to play in this setup)
- Having very few townreads all game long in a game about townreads
- Hopping into day 2 tunneling the third-scummiest player outside the coalition

I have more points but tbh I thought his entrance to this game day was so laughably scummy I didn't need to write it all out. I will today, not least because I'm finding your refusal to do mena pretty partner-y (my case does not rely on NK15 as partner like you keep saying, btw, it's just one point among many that they make quite a bit of sense as a team)

[Irrelephant11]

- Hopping into day 2 tunneling the third-scummiest player outside the coalition

this being the charitable, mena POV, where I could see him or some players reasonably TRing fire more than std (I think fire is almost definitely town)

[Irrelephant11]

i mean i would argue that irrel also didn't much wrt the t/t push in this universe and just didn't interact with it to push mena
i'm nto sure i see the difference between the two of them

A pretty big difference is I went "well these 3/4 really seem like town, therefore the fourth is scum, which I was already thinking"
mena went "I have no idea which of these 4 could be town, not really going to try to sort them, anyway std is scum, which I was already thinking"

Like my tunnel on mena (the scummiest in the coalition fmpov) is totally different than mena's tunnel on std (a random person outside the coalition, after totally refusing to sort within it)

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: skitter how do you feel about this progression

I am not certain but I'm heading in the direction where I think that this may be the best play

need to do due diligence on other slots too, but I think that StD redding essentially solves the game?

I am not certain but I'm heading in the direction where I think that this may be the best play

need to do due diligence on other slots too, but I think that StD redding essentially solves the game?

If STD is scum, then me/mala/fire are all confirmed town.
From your perspective, that means one scum in Skitter30/Datisi/Aristeia/irrelephant.
Who is it?

Fucked if I know

There’s a reason I want to do StD first

skitter why is it towny for mena to think std (your strongest townread from d1) is scum over both mala and nk15

[Irrelephant11]

skitter why don't you want to vote scum

[Irrelephant11]

I do think NK15 is his partner, I'm at like 50% confidence that's the scumteam. 50% confidence the scumteam is anything else. But mena regardless of if he's scum with you (didn't want him in the coalition because it makes today harder), datisi (got his way EOD1 to get him in), or malakittens (mena got lucky and nk15 is just an anti-town townie), it doesn't change the fact that mena is very much the scummiest in the coalition, his actions make no sense for town to be doing, he's playing bizarrely only because I and StD have given him no room to maneuver, and he's not even trying to sort within the coalition. So if nk15/mena isn't the team it's still him. Like FINE I'll MAKE THE FULL CASE in a few hours it just feels so blatantly obvious that the fact that you have him anywhere higher than [mm not sure] is so. weird to me

[Irrelephant11]

and you havent explained why this is inherently *scummy* of him, just not townie

bleh I think menalque's entrance does feel towny actually but his actual *actions* (to try to lim outside the coalition) are pretty scummy with obvious scum motivation (e.g. the towny townies in the coalition are too towny to win against in a 1v1, both scum might be in the coalition, etc)

If the other scum is in the coalition, limming outside of it has obvious scum benefit
If the other scum is outside the coalition, limming std is the only real direction mena can go that has any town momentum (see: the PL's inability to townread std day 1)
Either way, playing bizarre has scum benefit by being WIFOM-y. Playing bizarre isn't something townies do unless they're, like, hiding a PR

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: irrel

how about we flip mena and then you can flip me if it's green. deal?

[Irrelephant11]

skitter why don't you want to vote scum

I mean if this is you asking me to vote mena:
- i made it significantly clear that i townread him
- this is very manipulative and is casting me in the 'wrong' for not voting someone that we dont know is scum rn

I made it significantly clear that I scumread him and you should be too
It only casts you in a bad light if he flips red?? There's 0 worlds where I pivot to limming you today

[Irrelephant11]

I don't want skitter to be scum, @aristeia @std @fire please determine if this is tvt or tvs so I can proceed accordingly

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: menalque

This is his third vote based on the last VC. No need to keep my vote there in spirit when there's so much empty room on the wagon

[Irrelephant11]

hmmm good point
town!skitter can't see the case and defends weird-townie from Irrelephant who's spearheading a mislim
scum!skitter knows if her partner goes down she can't get three mislims before it turns on her, as someone who's been named as a potential partner?

Yeah I guess the first is a little more likely? Let me write it out:
Scum!skitter who turns around on mena chains mena > NK15 > mala > datisi/aristeia
Whereas defending mena, she goes Irrelephant > mena > NK15 > mala
Well wait now that I've written out I feel like the second does sound like a better route for scum her?

[Irrelephant11]

skitter do you have any recent solo scumgames? I only see hydra scumgames which might be useful but isn't my preference rn

[Irrelephant11]

And if nk15 isnt the partner, your point abt: it looks like scum pushed to get mena into the coalition

I hear you. You're right that this is a point I've emphasized, and that it could be invalid if they're not the team (though don't you suspect NK15 of being an outside-the-coalition goon too?). I have a wide variety of reasons to scumread menalque, though, and just have thought the case was becoming so obvious I could just point out a few things that stick out to me, like the point about him/nk15 being a very likely team. When I write my full scumcase in a few hours I'll write it as if NK15 doesn't exist, so you and I both can see if the case still holds up

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: irrel

how about we flip mena and then you can flip me if it's green. deal?

No, and this is also manipulative

No it's not. How is it manipulative? It's me honoring what you think is happening: me trying to make you look scummy by the way you're treating mena's slot. But the idea that I'm trying to make you look scummy depends on the idea that menalque flips red. Otherwise, if he flips green, I'm just asking a dumb question that makes me look scummy and you look towny. So your vote on me only makes sense in a world where mena has already flipped red. So I'm suggesting we take that path together.

[Irrelephant11]

skitter me saying "why don't you want to vote scum" isn't me trying to pivot to you, and if mena flips green I'm the one that looks bad.
I said it because I'm dumbfounded that you don't want to vote menalque after the way he's played this game day

@fire? @std? Am I missing something here? Is skitter just a stubborn towny?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: irrel

how about we flip mena and then you can flip me if it's green. deal?

No, and this is also manipulative

No it's not. How is it manipulative? It's me honoring what you think is happening: me trying to make you look scummy by the way you're treating mena's slot. But the idea that I'm trying to make you look scummy depends on the idea that menalque flips red. Otherwise, if he flips green, I'm just asking a dumb question that makes me look scummy and you look towny. So your vote on me only makes sense in a world where mena has already flipped. So I'm suggesting we take that path together.

EBWOP

[Irrelephant11]

And again given mena and irrel's respective townreads/trajectories going into this part of the day, i dont think the difference you're making holds merit

why didn't I re-evaluate one of my top scumreads when he made it into the failed coalition? The answer is in the question.
why didn't menalque re-evaluate one of his top scumreads when he didn't make it into the failed coalition?

[Irrelephant11]

So like ... why is he tanking his chances kf winning in nk15/mena ?

what a bizarre question. He gets limmed today or does something outside the box so that he doesn't get limmed today. the second almost always better, elo plans or not
mena is also repeatedly asking that: "how does this line up with me having a plan for elo?"
I don't know, how am I supposed to know the plans for elo? I'm sure most mafia chats don't include planning to get tunneled by Irrelephant, but here we are and something has to happen next

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel how sure are you that Mena is scum? cuz if you/him are T/T and one of skitter/datisi is WKing mena we are going to lose at the current trajectory.

I am not sure you've actually thought this out for very long.

I've thought it through more than skitter thinks but less than if I quit my job and only played mafia

Realistically I'd say I'm at like 80:20 mena:skitter/datisi/aristeia

[Irrelephant11]

like if she yeets town!you here - I think mena/her just get chain flipped on d2/3? so it doesnt seem like a very good plan for scum!her to defend scum!mena

I think there's more room than you suggest for scum!skitter to WIFOM post-mena-flip that she would not defend scum!mena so hard, using reasoning similar to what you're saying right now

But I see your point. skitter/mena is not jumping to the top of my scumteam list yet

[Irrelephant11]

I think any scumteam where both are in the coalition can count on nk15 being a mislim at some point, though, so if a skitter/mena team can get any two mislims before one of them goes down, that's a pretty good elo for them

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel how sure are you that Mena is scum? cuz if you/him are T/T and one of skitter/datisi is WKing mena we are going to lose at the current trajectory.

I am not sure you've actually thought this out for very long.

who do you think is scum in the coalition

[Irrelephant11]

Aristeia do you have any strong reads? I’m getting a little paranoid of the way you’re flitting around, pointing out logical inconsistencies and explaining people’s posts to each other… and meanwhile avoiding getting in fights with anyone except skitter who tried to lead a lim on you to start the day. Can you put down some hot takes that you stand by?

[Irrelephant11]

I used to feel pretty uppity about getting mislimmed but if mena does flip green I would probably not even mind going next because I'll have nothing left to offer but paranoia and sadness

this is mostly a joke but I guess it's also me reflecting on the fact that I've really gone all in on menalque and I've kinda screwed myself and potentially all of town's ability to win if it flips green

[Irrelephant11]

skitter me saying "why don't you want to vote scum" isn't me trying to pivot to you, and if mena flips green I'm the one that looks bad.
I said it because I'm dumbfounded that you don't want to vote menalque after the way he's played this game day

@fire? @std? Am I missing something here? Is skitter just a stubborn towny?

you saying that v much seemed manipulative and i prob would have voted you at that point too

Alright fine, I'm definitely getting too heated. taking a break unless anyone has questions for me before I go

[Irrelephant11]

I don't feel urgency, if that's @ me. I just want to lay on all the pressure on mena (and then also put a bunch on skitter). No rush from me yet

[Irrelephant11]

I inserted numbers:

like you seem to be saying that

[1] Mena + NK15/Mala is your solve.

and [2] Mena is scum by POE cuz skitt/dats/me are town

but [3] everyone outside the coalition is ok with voting off Mena

and [4] everyone inside the coalition is having cold feet with voting off Mena

and [5] I think that doesn't really compute with your worldview in some ways?

Like does either Mala/Nk15 really get to endgame after Mena!scum goes down today? Niether of them are out-towning STD/Fire and they have to survive 3 lims? [6]

I do recognize that like maybe they just got dealt these cards and this is the only way they can really play them cuz saying no doesn't really work out for them but I feel icky about it. [7]

[1] My solve is rn mena, then lim nk15 if red, then re-evaluate if nk15 flips green atp
[2] This is one of many reasons. Std has reasons I agree with, and I think mena's play is objectively scummy today regardless of PoE. I also think his day 1 was scummy (I even said as much when trying to get my preferred coalition)
[3] 0-1 of them are scum, so this should be a reason to like the wagon btw
[4] makes sense given that's how he got into the coalition
[5] You're right that this all doesn't totally jive with my preferred partners for mena, but it does suggest his partner is in the coalition or playing poorly. I think Nk15 or skitter or datisi fits, as I've said many times. I should maybe not be considering mala, I guess
[6] If mena/nk15 is the team I do not see any winning path. I like to think this is because I and other townies have cut them all off, not because they're town. I recognize this is a read from ego, but I still think it's possible to see from your perspective.
[7] right yes, I think scum can still be scum when it's hard to see how they could win

[Irrelephant11]

I think my being here while mena catches up is more likely to lead to threadclogs than to sortable content so bye

[Irrelephant11]

*pat pat*

it's ok skitt, if we're annoying enough, someone is gonna call us tvt eventually

Ok dropping by to say it would be a lie to say this post from skitter/datisi's scum chat from another game didn't make me paranoid but I think the whole pl is basically deciding between me/mena right now so in this world we've maybe already lost anyway? I will maybe legit cry if it's datisi/skitter

[Irrelephant11]

Okay on reflection I'm doing a lot of pushing mena while doing so in a way that this playerlist will simply not internalize until I outline and format and spell it out so that's on me and I will make sure I put every reason down to paper before I start getting mad at anyone for not seeing it my way

And then hopefully it will be easier to tell me I'm wrong if I'm wrong (though I really do wonder if I can even possibly win alongside town!mena at this point, feels like I'm in pretty deep on this)

[Irrelephant11]

I'm having like a panic attack (not really I've never had one I don't think. it's just the only term I can think of to describe this relatively minor emotion I'm experiencing) thinking about the world where menalque is town and I've led town off a cliff by making us 1v1

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe it's better described as "some amount of panic" without the attack part

[Irrelephant11]

menalque can you respond to std's response to your case on him next time you are itt

[Irrelephant11]

Alright I guess my heart won't stop pounding until I've made the case against menalque and if I'm wrong I'll only realize it by spewing it all, and either way i'm going to be totally distracted from my real life duties until I've done this so

[Irrelephant11]

<3 irrel

<3 I'm okay!! Don't feel bad @anyone it's my fault for caring about winning my first game back a little too much

[Irrelephant11]

skitter doesn't use tigers!?!??!?!1?!11?!?!?

[Irrelephant11]

i get that it's not optimal to want to yeet outside the coalition but what does scum!mena gain with that?

y'all. the thing scum mena gains by tunneling std. is your post. the one I am quoting.

[Irrelephant11]

I'm writing his scumcase in a word doc but let's imagine we're scum!mena for a minute, and look at our options when we enter the thread ~48 hours(? Can't remember exactly) after D2 starts.

> try to lim datisi? Hm well that's one of like 2.5 players in your corner and seems like a very hard 1v1
> try to lim skitter? Hm well that's one of like 2.5 players in your corner and seems like a very hard 1v1
> try to lim aristeia? Hm well that's one of like 2.5 players in your corner and seems like a very hard 1v1
> try to lim irrelephant? And look like one of the worst OMGUS's in a long time?

Hm. Realistically the lim will probably be inside the coalition, but if I can get the heat off me for a minute maybe one of them will look bad. Not to mention, if I can take someone (anyone) down before I go down, that's 1/3 of the way to a win. So let me think if there's anyone else limmable:

> try to lim nk15? Will be way to obviously scummy/might be partner
> try to lim malakittens? Will be way to obviously scummy/might be partner
> try to lim fireisredsir? Doesn't everyone think fire is town? Doubt this gets any traction and gains me an enemy where I currently don't have an enemy
> try to lim std? Enough people scumread him that he didn't make it into the coalition, maybe I could get votes there. At the very least it fits with what I've posted previously in a way that is town. PLUS he's coming for me so I kinda need to discredit him so people don't listen to him. Keeps an enemy where I have an enemy, nothing lost there. Yeah this is the best of 8 sucky options

[Irrelephant11]

He made no enemies of his friends, he didn't have to 1v1 someone inside the coalition before there was momentum to do so (see: his vote on me appearing only after I already had three votes), what option would have been better for scum!mena in day 2? none imo

[Irrelephant11]

Gamestate reasons that point to menalque

Spoiler: Scum is in the coalition

---> this is obvious, but is a reason why there’s no point in thinking about scumreads outside the coalition. Therefore, I’m ruling out voting for four players until I see a red flip.

Spoiler: Scum voted for the coalition

---> I think I’m the only one who has suggested this, but I find it extremely unlikely that fire or nk15 are the only scum who voted for it and skitter is the singular scum (and, from anyone else’s POV, that I’m the singular scum) in the coalition. It’s just like a mislim in any other setup, it furthered scum’s wincon so scum almost certainly voted for it, though maybe not both.

---> For this reason, I think scum!skitter’s partner must be fireisredsir or notknown15.

---> This also suggests it’s pretty likely that menalque, datisi, or aristeia is scum

Spoiler: Some players got their preferred coalition and some didn’t

this is a little galaxy-brain of me so be warned it might kill your desire to keep reading my post.

---> This might sound like the last point, but it’s distinct. There were two viable coalitions at EOD1. Skitter, std, and I wanted std in. aristeia, datisi, fire, nk15 and menalque wanted menalque in. malakittens didn’t vote for either. This matters because I believe std to be town, and he was left out. In a world where std and menalque are both town, I think the std coalition would have hammered. In that world:
>>>>>> scum!datisi wouldn’t have objected to std so strongly because std was easier for him to mislim than menalque
>>>>>> scum!aristeia would have continued being accommodating to me/skitter and let it be std to blame us when it failed
>>>>>> scum!skitter is unlikely to get so lucky that a counterwagon appears and goes through without her vote

---> But if menalque is scum, the shift in momentum is obvious: to get menalque into the coalition.

Spoiler: Scum felt comfortable day 1 (disclaimer: weak point)

--->In the two games I’ve played of coalition, a way that scum became obvious in those games was a slight undertone of desperation when it seemed likely that town was on its way to forming a coalition without them. The only player I felt that from in this game was fireisredsir, which was a reason I thought he was scum for awhile. But I don’t think fireisredsir would feel desperate on behalf if partnered with any of players in the coalition, since it was consensus from pretty early on that 5 of me/std/aristeia/datisi/skitter/menalque would probably make the coalition. So scum never felt desperate. Well gee how is that helpful since like I just said the reads were mostly consensus all game. Well I personally think it’s a good reason to townread aristeia, who like me offered to stay out of the coalition with fire (I meant it so maybe I’m projecting but I think she meant it too). The more I think about this point… the less impactful it feels. Do with it what you will.

Leaving this because it was a reason I had until I wrote this post and I guess that’s useful info:

Spoiler: Low posters are usually scum and top posters are usually town in this setup. Proof:

- scum were #5 & #6 posters

- scum were #2 and #9 posters

- shoot another one where scum included the #2 poster, I guess maybe this isn’t a good point

- and another where scum were #1 and #4, alright nvm I concede the point. I guess it was based on my experience only, and is dumb

Menalque’s play itself

Spoiler: generally, a lack of townreads

---> As I outlined in 518, scum have to play this setup kind of awkwardly. While it’s usually useful to get some townies pocketed by handing out townreads, it’s much more dangerous during the coalition stage of this setup, because oops you made townies townread each other and now they’ve coalition’d without you.

---> Meanwhile, I think town enjoy this setup because it’s all about finding fellow townies. We quickly heal because yay found one, we quickly hurt because ~wait~uh~oh~paranoia~ and then heal someone else. This is anecdotal but I think holds up better upon reviewing multiple coalition games than my point about low posters.

--->Menalque does not do the townie-looking-for-townies thing, like at all. By 137 he had a single read (compare to 138 where datisi has a full coalition) – me as town. By 415 he has not shared any further reads, with the minor exception of 272 where he hints he might be okay with datisi being in a coalition. 416 he heals me and datisi. 455 (455????) he shares a readslist where every single read is town-but-heavily-hedging, null, or scum.

---> In 272 he suggests 5 players shouldn’t be townreads for ari yet, without explaining why any of them might be scum or helping to sort them at all. Just feels like he’s pushing townies down in general

Spoiler: questions that go nowhere

---> Relly, why are you getting paranoid of skit? (followed by explaining why I shouldn’t be townreading skitter)

---> @nk15 could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance (followed by asking it multiple times, escalating to threatening to yeet NK15 about it, then ignoring NK15 this game day despite never getting an answer)

Spoiler: strange things that are NAI at best

---> WIFOM-towncasing himself in posts 145 and 146.

---> scumreading ari/fire based on a secret ari tell he refused to explain

---> Refusing to explain why datisi was townish in earlygame until late d1, and the explanation was “datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them” (???)

Spoiler: trajectory on std

go read std’s posts on the topic

I didn't even write everything, but I came close, and I can't. Play mafia any harder than this. So this is what you get, take it or lim me, I guess

[Irrelephant11]

I didn't even write everything

notably I didn't really get past the first half or 2/3 of d1 when reading mena's ISO, so I might be missing reasons he is town that happened close to deadline. But my memory is that he was pretty absent until he joined the coalition that had him in it.

I still stand by everything I DID reread and write about, though

[Irrelephant11]

Overall the case is weaker than I expected, actually. But I still see him as the most likely suspect and think he's done genuinely scummy things, and I needed to put that out there instead of just going see things my way

[Irrelephant11]

alas, it never would have worked, twas but a fleeting dream

curious what the goal was? I could tell it was a reaction test but not what kind

[Irrelephant11]

We can lim me today so long as the following order is relly -> ari no exceptions

I am also good with this

[Irrelephant11]

but like, flip me and mena in the list

[Irrelephant11]

I have gone so far in on menalque that I don't see how anyone other than me gets flipped if menalque flips green. I have effectively bet the game on menalque being scum and don't even feel as confident as I did previously, but see no other direction to go that makes sense to me

pedit: lots going on

[Irrelephant11]

I think he's just trying to get me mislimmed before he goes down. If he comes for me, he can maybe get 1/3 of the way to a scum win. Anyone else and he just goes down

[Irrelephant11]

Like the push on me is so so opportunistic. Meanwhile I've burned all my towncred making this case and it still might not go through?

[Irrelephant11]

Anyone see town!mena telling me to self-vote, please link me to the last time he did. 100% AtE to get one mislim in before I take him down

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah the latter. I think it’s a very scummy thing to do because I think he’s trying desperately to get at least one townie to get limmed before him

[Irrelephant11]

I had a long post and it got deleted D:

[Irrelephant11]

Ari I have to say that the idea you might vote me today because you’re trying to avoid unpleasantness with mena freaking sucks (I don’t swear but insert swear words mentally if that helps you get how I feel). I’ve played this game so hard for town, like so so so hard. Hours of my life that nobody asked for but that I am putting in because I think I’ve caught scum and don’t feel heard. Vote me if you scumread me. Don’t you dare vote me to appease mena.

[Irrelephant11]

Skitter me memory is that mena was more likely to end up in the coalition until I flipped on him near end of day, and ari was not a lock for the coalition (you and ari both were suggesting she be left out). So I could be remembering wrong but my impression att is (skitter, irrel, Datisi, mena) would be the comfortable ones. It’s part of why I flipped on mena before end of d1, was realizing fire is probably town and nobody else had seemed desperate and so someone I was townreading was probably scum. I decided mena. I still think it’s mena.

[Irrelephant11]

I lost another long post I’m very distressed

[Irrelephant11]

The long post that I wrote and lost twice was weirdly similar to menalque’s above posts

Here’s the summary: I’m pretty angry. I want to confine those emotions to one post for game pleasantness.

Datisi, stop being lazy about sorting between me and Menalque.

Skitter, if you’re going to vote me make the scumcase. Right now it seems like you’re voting me just because I’m doing everything I can to get a mena lim (when I could have come into today confused and waiting for a lim to present itself - this is a reason youre townreading mena, remember?). Ive been angry and direct and, fypov, manipulative. I’ve seen you scumread shoshin for the same moves and you know I like how she plays. Consider my motivations, not just my most recent posts towards you pls.

Aristeia, vote me if you’re scum or you think I’m scum. Don’t vote me to avoid an argument or something, because you know I’ve put blood sweat and tears into this game.

Fire, you’re the only one besides std and I who seems to see that anything mena is doing is scummy. Consider why you and std are basically being ignored and I’m collecting votes for making a push you (at least sort of) agree with. Please appeal to those you think are town a little louder, if it’s something you believe in.

I get that I’ve put myself into this 1v1 but I’m so mad that multiple players seem to be shrugging instead of sorting us. I feel so unheard and I can’t tell who’s scum but I’m very upset about the general way this game day has gone because I really thought I came into the day confident on a read and making the case as best I could and now I feel like mena’s couple of “don’t you dare” posts is going to win the day because it satisfies some meta expectation of mena. This just sucks.

Angry pity party over (and this is the short version lol)

[Irrelephant11]

How much time do we have left

[Irrelephant11]

Because I hate this but uhhhhhhhhh page 77 and I’m not sure Menalque is scum. Hahahahaha I feel like an insane person making this post, it feels like a death wish. But. Do we really both make “sorry for heating up the thread” posts at the same time as tvs? Lol I hate mafia

[Irrelephant11]

I have also felt a catch-22 of continuing the push my strong scumread or re-evaluating and getting scumread for it (not exactly the same catch-22 but similar)

Let’s work together for like 8 hours? Is this an awful idea
We can always go back to 1v1ing after that?

Hahahahahahaha am I gamethrowing ahhhhhhh

[Irrelephant11]

I think Relly is on balance of probabilities more likely to be scum than Ari but I wouldn't say I'm so confident that I'd be surprised if I have it the wrong way round

that sucks if it is the wrong way round because I'm dying tomorrow for sure

I don't think it's skitter or dats, and kudos to either one (or both, perish the thought) if they're scum -- if it is one I'd say probably skitter but again her defending me seems needlessly complicated for what would be a hard 5p elo to win anyway, and I'm hoping that train of thought is correct

Relly seems to be keen for/worried about getting this lim in a way that I think town!him would be less so about, because he'd know that I die tomorrow which is not *that* big a loss even if limming scum!me today is obviously better fhpov

This is maybe the towniest post Menalque has posted all game. As I’m writing this I can hear the scumcase for irrelephant getting longer but I don’t want to lim Menalque and then myself if we’re tvt ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Irrelephant11]

I'm also concerned that your re-evaluation may be prompted by concern that you might lose the 1v1 and that would be, to borrow a phrase from antiquity "v bad for scum"

I am however happy to try and talk in case I am wrong and it's not you

I also have to admit that I've been skimming some of your posts while you've been tunnelled on me so if you already talked about this point me at where, but what do you think of skitter this game?

1) this is why I have shoved down paranoia that it’s not you all game day, because the likelihood I get limmed goes way up for that exact reason if I reevaluate. But I *would* be fronting to keep tunneling you, at least in this ~moment~ (who knows how long it’ll last maybe I’ll still think it’s you soon) and that does seem worse

I’ve had multiple times where I mindmelded with skitter, which has always been one of my best ways to read her. But the mindmelds basically ended d2 so idk what to do with that

[Irrelephant11]

I think her voting for the wrong coalition is a town point. I think she lost the argument with Aristeia at start of d2 but I don’t think that makes her scum. I think her recent paranoia about ari made sense from town her

I think her townread on you has always been stronger than you deserved, but maybe I’m the dumb one who, without meta, can’t see that you’re obvtown

[Irrelephant11]

I thought she was potentially your partner for awhile there. But if you’re town…

Scum skitter wants me > you > ?? as the three mislims because that’s somehow better than you > me > ??
Probably not
Town skitter just has a strong townread and defends her friend she thinks she can read
Sounds more likely

Which is why I’ve been arguing with her so much I think, I’ve subconsciously sorted her as more likely town but I’ve thought she’s missing the obvious

Petit: I think nearly any wagon that flips in a way scum likes has scum on it. The coalition wagon flipped in a way scum likes, so I think scum was on it.

Yes that was the skitter/ari argument

One sec datisi

[Irrelephant11]

This is maybe the towniest post Menalque has posted all game

how is *that* the towniest post from him for you?

and while i know i've been called lazy, i don't appreciate it >.> i've read the points against him being scum, i don't see it. i could be wrong, i've been wrong before and i will be wrong again, but i don't think he has a red role pm this game. so. the only reason why i'm stalling is because i'm wondering if there's a chance i have some sorta revelation that makes me either sure in voting you, or sure in voting someone else. i know it's very unlikely to happen, but

You’re right I meant 1903

[Irrelephant11]

Relly seems to be keen for/worried about getting this lim in a way that I think town!him would be less so about, because he'd know that I die tomorrow which is not *that* big a loss even if limming scum!me today is obviously better fhpov

Though this line is also v towny to me because while I *have* thought it through (scum mena who knows he’s going down and is partnered with someone who’s like middle-of-the-pack needs to get one mislim before he dies) I think on balance this is a towny reason to OMGUS me

[Irrelephant11]

This is maybe the towniest post Menalque has posted all game

how is *that* the towniest post from him for you?

and while i know i've been called lazy, i don't appreciate it >.> i've read the points against him being scum, i don't see it. i could be wrong, i've been wrong before and i will be wrong again, but i don't think he has a red role pm this game. so. the only reason why i'm stalling is because i'm wondering if there's a chance i have some sorta revelation that makes me either sure in voting you, or sure in voting someone else. i know it's very unlikely to happen, but

Also I’m not trying to call you lazy. You keep calling you lazy. “I know I should _____ but I’m too lazy”
It’s infuriating when it has felt like you’re potentially the swing vote and are just shrugging when I or std appeal to you

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah but wagons that go through are different than wagons that don’t. I don’t know maybe I’m relying too heavily on a dumb wagon point.

Treating me as town for a sec, though, if there’s no scum on wagon and skitter is scum, her partner is in std/malakittens. I guess I could see it being mala? Anyway I just think it’s more likely at least one scum is on wagon if the coalition fails. Anecdotal town losses aside, seems statistically likely

[Irrelephant11]

Okay @playerlist I know it’s +scum for me to reevaluate with my life on the line but can we ignore that for most of today so I can do the reevaluating first thank u bye

[Irrelephant11]

One reason I’d be sort of surprised mena/me was t/t was the way skitter/ari/Datisi kept their distance? Like by now it seems like scum would want to start to commit to one of us being scum for the sake of making any progress on that before deadline/before me and mena do the re-eval thing. Maybe that’s what skitter is doing? Wow f me if I derailed ari and Datisi’s pressure on skitter to make a bad push and force the whole game to choose between me and mena

[Irrelephant11]

yep, i reread the case and i feel like i could write another wall on why i don't think the reasons are Good but i also don't really think that would be much helpful for anyone

Okay for the sake of this conversation which if skitter/ari is more likely scum fypov

[Irrelephant11]

I have thought ari is being weirdly distant/keeping hands clean and I thought that was frustrating but thought every time she made a logical point it was a good one that showed sorting-thought-processes. But idk her resignation to vote me for mena’s personal sake (vs voting mena which could, you know, also help her avoid that toxicity because he’d be gone) is a scum tell in an otherwise pure-town-tone game? But her concern that we’re t/t feels towny in the new mena-is-town-hat I’m trying on

[Irrelephant11]

Like does ari gain towncred later if she was right that me/mena are t/t and she did nothing to stop it even though she publicly worried about it? Maybe I’m overthinking it and it just gets whichever of me/mena lives to see her as smart town who’s on their side. See this is why I really really really really really really don’t want to have to sort between skitter/Datisi/Aristeia

Feels like I could make a scumcase that goes something like “appeared towny and then kept hands clean and then left town to kill itself” for all three. Ari more than the other two maybe

[Irrelephant11]

You think she’s defending Menalque specifically because she would be obvscum to you and Menalque if she didn’t?

[Irrelephant11]

Like you and her have felt equally “nope sorry” about my push on Menalque since I and std started the push, if she were a little less sure it would be an easy miselim that makes me look p scummy. Why defend him in such a way that it would be hard to even turn on him later? I guess a NK is an option but limming and NKing inside the coalition seems risky

[Irrelephant11]

I did think it was scummy that ari’s single strong, non-sheep argument all game long is that skitter is wrong and bad for voting her. I’d kind of forgotten but isn’t it sort of scummy that her only emphatic push could be read as self-defense? @datisi

Petit: I’m just continuing mena’s argument that seemed reasonable I have no idea if skitter is town

[Irrelephant11]

Like I thought it was potentially +scum for skitter that I felt like we had similar reads on people d1 and then that just like, broke. d2 (trajectory is scummy, not the reads)
But otoh the *break* was mostly over mena/ari and one of us might be right and the other wrong and that’s the only reason we aren’t seeing eye to eye

[Irrelephant11]

are any of your reads not based in meta?

[Irrelephant11]

Have you ever seen scum!ari, Datisi? I thought she said she’s only rolled town before

[Irrelephant11]

But like maybe acknowledge that you don’t know how scum!ari would play this setup and decide if scum motivations match her actions here without regard for her username? Is my request

[Irrelephant11]

I was so pro scum

Sorry for the rep out! It was entirely due to IRL reasons but I know the timing made it seem like an emotional quit - sorry if that brought the mood down. Well played, scumteam! Not sure town ever stood a chance

[Irrelephant11]

mb we should have just sheeped mena on STD d1 =_=;;

Can you imagine? Whole different world

[Irrelephant11]

Ty ydra as well!

Also great to olay with you again irrel, hope to again sometime soon!

Oh also yes thanks for great modding Ydra!

And it was great playing with you again, too, skitter! I might make a foray into modding for the first time before I play another game, but I definitely hope to play with you again, and I'll be less stubborn next time

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry for the tunnel menalque

[Irrelephant11]

Give us the scumchat where std taught datisi to call me Irrel

[Irrelephant11]

Subject: Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Mafia PT

irrel

hehehe now your scumbuddy has called irrelephant irrel in the scum pt

std you won me with your charm, I would have townread you off tone even if I was reading the scumchat tbh

[Irrelephant11]

eek sorry that my rep out really ruined your game datisi but also not that sorry because I left a legacy of "nobody touch std" so I think it balances

[Irrelephant11]

I would have townread you off tone

tonereads bad

*bonk*

go to toneread jail

In fairness,

You are correct