Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Menalque]

Hi all, nice to see you!

ydra, I also do a standing weekend V/LA nowadays, if you’d be so kind

VOTE: dats

[Menalque]

Hi Ari

I’m going to engage with you cautiously because I feel like recent experiences haven’t been great

[Menalque]

VOTE: dats

bad vote

i can't believe you randed scum again

me either tbh

[Menalque]

I think irrelephant is town so far but that’s about all I got

[Menalque]

i had a vision about her first post being a townping and nobody from the people i didn't heal has surpassed it

I feel that I should have

[Menalque]

Aha, you noticed!

Well, my dear friend, let me tell you: had I rolled scum, I would have been feeling more pressure to perform for this PL, so I would have made more of an effort with my posts, both in content and quantity;

I have not, in fact, done anything to try and make myself towny or advance the gamestate etc;

My behaviour as scum would be different to my actual behaviour here;

Therefore, I am town

[Menalque]

Now, you might ask me: “but wait, Menalque, surely the moment that you had that thought process, for instance in the pre-game, couldn’t you then just explain the idea while doing nothing as scum, which would be in your interest because actually efforting and sounding like town takes skill which is harder than simply claiming that a thought process makes you town?”

To which my answer would be: “well, yes, technically, but really don’t worry about that because I promise it is true and I am town”

[Menalque]

due to witnessing your scum performance in that pyp game which had a similarly packed playerlist, i do not subscribe to "scum!mena would always tryhard"

also it is page five and less than 24 hours into the game which is way too fucking early for making such claims anyway

AND the reason i dislike your play is not the lack of effort but rather a tonal aspect, which is not as easy to overcome as "lol i would just do it"

therefore you are not townie and i am not convinced

But I was burned out back then

Burned out and washed up in this damn city of angels

[Menalque]

VOTE: menalque

Why

[Menalque]

i don't think even you believe there is

it’s almost like i said this!

[Menalque]

mmmmm but 146 is a post tho

[Menalque]

so i kiiiiiiiinda did tho?

[Menalque]

There is an image format with a person on the right hand side and a line that starts in the bottom left and travels towards the head of the person but then at the last second goes up and over the person’s head before resuming its original flight path and at the end we see it’s no actually a line at all but an arrow and the arrow is labelled “the joke” and then the stick person is labelled “you”

[Menalque]

@Mena

I know this might be unfair but I somewhat miss this version of you:

viewtopic.php?p=11923981&user_select%5B ... #p11923981

you feel like you're just not as confident tonally and I hope you can become your radiant townie self if you are town here.

I’m still confident when I have something that I feel confident in

Currently I’m still feeling it out, and nobody seems to be trying to kill relly or avoid putting him in coalition so there’s nothing to be insistent in relation to

Also we lost that game lol

[Menalque]

I meant more as in confident in your abilities.

Also I don't think winning or losing is that important - you still played a very dashing game.

I realised that I was wrong a decently high amount of the time and decided that until such a point that my reads are reliably very good in general, it's better to be upfront with that rather than manage to force things through because I want them even when they're wrong

I also realised that people confidently declaring things that I knew were absolutely incorrect was a trigger point for me getting pissed off in the game, and that if I found that incredibly annoying I should probably try to stop doing it to others

I tend to downplay my game now, but still think that I get on a good read from time-to-time, just not in a way that stands out

***

anyway, Relly, why are you getting paranoid of skitt?

[Menalque]

incidentally, my strategic principle going into this is that skitter/ari probably shouldn't be in the coalition unless there's a real dearth of towniness from other slots as they're the players I think it's hardest to catch on D1 if scum

[Menalque]

that's not exactly what I'm saying, I think:

I'm not saying I *wouldn't* heal either of them, just that the standard of evidence is necessarily higher, and with both of them it's a lot harder to sort them without any flips/real info. probably harder than anyone else here, no offence intended

that means that if I can find 4 more players and towntell myself, yes, I'd rather have those players in, even if one or two of them seemed towny but a *bit less* towny than Ari or skitter

if however there were, let's say, 4 very scummy seeming players by the time coalition deadline rolls round and both skitter and ari seemed decently town, I'd probably go with them being in there

it's a matter of degree, but I think it's well warranted to be sceptical of people with the best scumgames given the mech of the setup

[Menalque]

like, re: skitt

what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far

that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete

[Menalque]

It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that

could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance

[Menalque]

I think mena is probably town
(Fwiw r.e. your approach to me: i think my game has gotten a bit worse recently, and that ari should probably be in the bucket you usually put me in, and that i'm probably not in the same tier as her these days, but i dont like inherently oppose or object to this approach to me, and can understand it
)

okay, noted -- I'm inclined to still sort you as normal, but I'll maybe put a bit less of a BoP on you than I have sometimes in the past as acknowledgement of that

[Menalque]

like, re: skitt

what do you think you could have done to reliably sort skitter when she hasn't even got 30 posts yet? I'm really sceptical that literally anyone on site could say that they're confident she's town based on that amount/what she's done so far

that doesn't mean treat her like scum -- I advocate the opposite -- but even doubling up on that, it's going to be very hard to reliably read her as town based on what she's actually done without anything concrete

To begin with: there's a 75% chance she's town.
Then: She said things in the dat/ari/skit opening to the game that I agreed with (like "you two feel weird")
Following: She rightly pointed out that me saying "more people should heal me" is sketchy without really coming for me. If she's scum she probably should have come for me as a widely townread townie, unless she thinks I'll lead town off a cliff based on my current trajectory

Even if the second & third things are only worth like 2% points of towniness each, there's now a 79% chance she's town. Good enough to sit in my coalition until the paranoia comes for me

okay, here's my problem with this:

(1) any player has a higher chance of being town than scum looked at purely randomly -- if you applied this to each player you'd be right in each case that the random % chance was better for scum than town, but you'd still just be shooting in the dark at random, which only leads to whatever the non-charisma based version EV gives for win %. it is a good argument for why to deal with people in good faith though
(2) do you think that scum!skitter wouldn't be able to note the same "weirdness" between dats/ari? if scum!skitt would also be able to recognise these things, then why would she not also point them out? I think this is NAI
(3) I can see why that can be perceived as sketchy but don't really think it is. I don't see any reasons why scum!skitt would necessarily see anyone as being a big enough threat at this point in the game that she'd risk compromising herself by going for them off the bat

again, not saying I think skitter is scum here, but I don't think the arguments you've put forth for why she's better-than-rand % town are convincing

[Menalque]

I think mena is probably town
(Fwiw r.e. your approach to me: i think my game has gotten a bit worse recently, and that ari should probably be in the bucket you usually put me in, and that i'm probably not in the same tier as her these days, but i dont like inherently oppose or object to this approach to me, and can understand it
)

okay, noted -- I'm inclined to still sort you as normal, but I'll maybe put a bit less of a BoP on you than I have sometimes in the past as acknowledgement of that

Sure. Like i said feel free to do with this as you will, i'm not saying you should change how you approach me, or not, i'm just sharing how i feel abt my game now vs in the past

no, I appreciate the heads up, ty!

[Menalque]

It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that

could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance

[Menalque]

ari
skitter
irre
nk15
std
datisi

hmm

don't think I like this list

at all

[Menalque]

ari
skitter
irre
nk15
std
datisi

hmm

don't think I like this list

at all

who do you scumread on the list?

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet, with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

[Menalque]

You're right that I'm sort of misusing random chance as a way to read people as town. But on the other hand I think it IS actually a good reason to not just write off good scum players who are also good town players - since they're more likely to be town, you shouldn't be afraid to townread their towniness

I would definitely agree with not writing them off -- in fact, I think the best way to catch them is often from trying to work with them instead of tunnelling them, or from just sort of observing and seeing what they do without trying to pressure them off the bat

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there need to be hard reasons for TRs on them -- thoughts or progressions that would be very hard to fake as scum, behaviours that wouldn't come from scum -- narrowing down which of those things are actually likely/unlikely depending on alignment becomes easier with more information (i.e. flips, results). but I think on D1 in particular, reads of X person as being towny should be thoroughly interrogated because people are often wrong in mafia, gut is often wrong, and if gut can't be substantiated with reasons for why person would do a thing as town but not as scum then it shouldn't be trusted (unless person has an exceptionally high accuracy with this borne out across multiple games)

[Menalque]

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet, with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

do you think any of mala/fire/you have done more than the people on my list?

not really

hence why I don't like talking about a complete list at all

[Menalque]

I mean I guess I feel like I have now, but I think that's the perpetual bias of thinking-that-you're-being-very-towny-when-town-even-though-it's-not-so-clear-to-anyone-else

so I don't expect

you

to see me as townier than other people on your list

[Menalque]

It feels like your complaint is more about that my list is too early rather than any issue with the quality?

to me they are one and the same

I guess Relly asking you to heal some people makes sense for producing it, but I guess I'm still confused by why those names vs any of the other three names when most names haven't really done anything yet to be worthy of inclusion

[Menalque]

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,

with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

i am interested in the bolded

is it going to annoy you if I tell you that I don't want to explain yet?

[Menalque]

i don't agree with the point about skitter/ari being dangerous to add to a coalition but i like what they've said otherwise

could you go into this more for me please?

[Menalque]

I don't really have any scum reads yet but I don't think that any of (you, skitt, dats, nk15, std) have done enough to warrant inclusion on the coalition yet,

with a marginally lower objection to dats being there than anyone else

i am interested in the bolded

is it going to annoy you if I tell you that I don't want to explain yet?

it is very much going to annoy me, yes

but alright, keep your secrets

I promise I'll explain why before the EoD1 and you can hold me to that

prob before we even coalition, I'm just still wanting to let some stuff develop naturally

[Menalque]

incidentally, my strategic principle going into this is that skitter/ari probably shouldn't be in the coalition unless there's a real dearth of towniness from other slots as they're the players I think it's hardest to catch on D1 if scum

i don't agree with this post, if they're townie they'll be townie. i believe in my ability to tr people and am not worried if they're scum because i believe in my ability to scum read them.

i just don't hold people to higher/lower standard. anyone can surprise you

do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?

menalque gth who would you coalition?

myself
irrelephant

It feels like your complaint is more about that my list is too early rather than any issue with the quality?

to me they are one and the same

I guess Relly asking you to heal some people makes sense for producing it, but I guess I'm still confused by why those names vs any of the other three names when most names haven't really done anything yet to be worthy of inclusion

NK15 - I liked his thought about me being off balance because I am mafia with Datisi, I liked the singleminded focus on pushing that worldview - it feels like something he genuinely believes.

Relly - I don't really have any experience with him - he just feels tonally very townie and trying to move the game forward, just feels like he has takes and a natural progression that just clicks.

SaveTD - It's mostly the charisma. I liked that he's taking more of a leadership role and he's not trying to fade into the background.

Skitter - I guess I just don't think she engages with me this way as scum? It's a quite daring line of play and I think she would expect town!me to be able to figure out if she was faking suspicion of me because I am fairly decent at that and I'm somewhat ruthless so it could blow up for her. I don't think she needs to take such risks in this kind of game state.

Dats - I'm kind of biased here because it's Dats<3. I just feel like his thoughts flow in a very natural way and he doesn't feel uncomfortable to be present. I thought a lot of his posting as scum in the recently ended dance game felt like he couldn't wake to dip out of the thread and here he's just happy to mix it up with people.

okay, ty for the elaboration

[Menalque]

do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?

some people might have better records but i don't really care about other people's i care more about how i'm doing

I'm just trying to get my head round your stance on not being warier of certain people

I'm not in favour of complacency, but let's say you have player X who is well-known for being very good as scum and as town

and player Y who is well-known for seeming towny when town but having a terrible scumgame

let's say both players had identical (towny) ISOs

would you feel equally confident calling them both town?

[Menalque]

I mean sure it makes sense to coalition 5 polarized players who are hard towntelling with high levels of certainty but we don't have that here.

you kind of have to work with what you have - not what you hope to have?

Yes, but that’s not why I’m asking

do you think that some people are stronger scum players than others?

some people might have better records but i don't really care about other people's i care more about how i'm doing

I'm just trying to get my head round your stance on not being warier of certain people

I'm not in favour of complacency, but let's say you have player X who is well-known for being very good as scum and as town

and player Y who is well-known for seeming towny when town but having a terrible scumgame

let's say both players had identical (towny) ISOs

would you feel equally confident calling them both town?

yeah probably if they were both townie according to me

hmm okay ty

[Menalque]

@mena and whoever else has him as a strong townread, where am i wrong?

good progression:

there's an internal consistency to the way he's thinking

110, 112 are talking about skitter being town

then I like him going to her as a TR for more info on me in 164

then a bit of time passes and next day he realises his reasons on skitt aren't very strong in posts 221, 225

he reflects on why he TRs her in 231

and then acknowledges the flaws in the argument while still saying that he wants to stick with it for now bc of practical past experience in 261, 262

^all that rings to me as a genuine thought process by steps

plus I liked his take on me, going from probably town but losing the towniness race (221) to upgrading me in 234 which also makes sense to me based on the interaction we were having

aside from that I think his ISO shows he's generally been trying to move the game forward (pro-town) and I liked 327 for being willing to engage while still explaining why he didn't think it would be worth it, which I also think is pro-town because that sort of bickering tends to kill thread

there's obviously always a degree of paranoia because scum are motivated in this setup to try and do townier things, so it's the combination of what seem to be to be real thought process combined with the pro-town stuff that elevates him to a strong TR for me

[Menalque]

It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that

could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance

[Menalque]

HEAL: mena
HEAL: Relly
HEAL: dats

[Menalque]

HEAL: ducky

[Menalque]

that's a town duck if I ever saw one

[Menalque]

might do reads later today

would still like some more content first though

[Menalque]

I kinda think scum is in fire, mala, nk15
Which kinda makes me think i have to include one of ari/dats

would like greater explanation of this please

[Menalque]

okay, I really wanna try to nap before I head off to bjj but I'll say this:

skitt I'm treating as town but don't really think she's done anything outside of range

I'm mostly susp of std from the people who have been kinda active, but could also be nk/mala who I really need more from to sort

if fire is maf (entirely possible, need to read the latest posts more carefully and probably ask some follow ups) then Ari is their partner imo

ari is like fine I guess and I think I'll be able to read her, currently a hair's breadth on the scummy side of null though

datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them

Relly I think I've explained enough on

[Menalque]

@menalque, aristeia, skitter

Who's fire's scum buddy? Or alternatively: please link me to a game where fireisredsir scumread most of the playerlist and was town

I don't really do much meta anymore (apart from occasional backsliding where I just can't help myself re: people I have first hand meta with)

however, as stated, probably ari

[Menalque]

MWTTID

You’re really gonna need a snappier acronym if you want this to catch on, Relly

[Menalque]

I would love to know why StD is town

[Menalque]

Pro tip: “has the same reads as me” will not be accepted as an answer

[Menalque]

I would love to know why StD is town

do you think i'm not town

That would be the gist of this post and what I said in 455

[Menalque]

Or I guess more accurately— I’ve seen nothing from you that makes you town, and I have concerns, but there’s been so little from mala and NK (plus fire needs sorting) that I’m not sure you’re actually scum

[Menalque]

I’d love it if NK15 could answer the question I’ve asked 3 times already or, you know, address me in any way

[Menalque]

StD, do you think I should be townreading you here and if so why?

[Menalque]

I looked at your ISO and I saw reads and comments, but I couldn’t really see a clear/not easily fakeable progression anywhere like I think I can in Relly’s ISO

If being totally honest I also didn’t really jive with your reaction to my 146 (or thereabouts, I’m doing the post number by memory)

And I thought your position of not worrying about people’s scumgames and just being able to read them regardless was plausible, but not reasonable

[Menalque]

I’d like for some of the people who are townreading you to run through it for me, because as mentioned, I’m p far from locked in on you but rn I don’t feel comfortable with you on coalition

But I just figured as you were around I’d ask if there was anything you thought made it really obvious you were town that I was being boneheaded about

[Menalque]

I also tend to do a combo of skimming ISOs for impressions and then reading them more closely when I need to make an important decision, and I’ll admit you have been more of the skim variety so far

[Menalque]

this is really a playstyle gripe and is nai as far as i'm concerned

I mean I’m writing it off as mostly NAI but I think you’re wrong to take that position and I find it odd that you don’t find the reasons for why I think you’re wrong compelling

It’s the not seeing why the reasons are compelling (or perhaps me not understanding why you don’t find them compelling) that makes me suspect they may be false reasons to justify putting ari/skitt into the coalition more easily, which I would want to do if scum because it would be good cover for me

[Menalque]

In 146 I was trying to make it clear that I was aware that 145 was not actually a compelling argument at all

But once I’d had the idea of the argument, I decided to post it anyway, because it would be funny to make a post that was trash arguing for why I’m town, only to immediately give a wink wink nudge nudge acknowledgement that it wasn’t that at all

[Menalque]

I kinda think scum is in fire, mala, nk15
Which kinda makes me think i have to include one of ari/dats

would like greater explanation of this please

Which bit? I see no strong reason to townread fire/mala/nk15. That's 3 players, with 6 remaining. If i exclude those 3 i need to include one of ari/dats to get to 5

(And my current coalition i think is exactly pl - fire/mala/nk15 - ari/dats)

So it’s PoE rather than actively scumreading them?

[Menalque]

I am always and forever paranoid, but think it's actively unhelpful to indulge it for the sake of it -- I also think that unless it's rooted in specifics, it's not that helpful to bring up, as it gives scum an idea of the fault lines to attack if town is cohering (and in this setup, if a coalition is actually good)

[Menalque]

Yeah i'm not sure it *helps* to dive deep into the paranoia, but i'm certainly feeling it, abt one person in particular

[Menalque]

I am always and forever paranoid, but think it's actively unhelpful to indulge it for the sake of it -- I also think that unless it's rooted in specifics, it's not that helpful to bring up, as it gives scum an idea of the fault lines to attack if town is cohering (and in this setup, if a coalition is actually good)

Can you decide on std’s alignment please
Also on aristeia’s? That would be v helpful thank you

Ari I just don't think I've seen enough from overall to be in any way confident – if I absolutely had to, lean town UNLESS fire is scum in which case she's scum

StD I just need to sit down and read properly, let me see if I'm likely to have time before deadline

[Menalque]

okay, yeah, I should do but it might not be until Friday

[Menalque]

I'll explain it if I have to but kinda don't want to unless needed because I think I'm at a point where my reads on Ari are actually quite decent and I don't want to make it really hard again

[Menalque]

suffice to say there's a certain pattern of interaction there that I think would be telling if fire!scum

[Menalque]

I'll explain it if I have to but kinda don't want to unless needed because I think I'm at a point where my reads on Ari are actually quite decent and I don't want to make it really hard again

What?

is this a "what the fuck are you on about" what or a "I do not understand what you just said" what?

[Menalque]

I have, I think, maybe, something similar to a tell for Ari

That is what my fire-ari SR is based on

If I explain it, then Ari will know what said tell is, and will be able to adapt in future to make it worthless, thus making it hard for me to consistently read her again

If I come to the conclusion that Ari is scum and needs to die, then I'd prefer to only out the tell as a last resort for getting her killed in order to conserve it

[Menalque]

if there's a need to, I'll out it

atm I'm not sure that Ari-fire scum is more plausible than, say, fire-mala, StD-nk15, etc

[Menalque]

there's literally no point in me outing it now when I'm not even sure that fire is scum

[Menalque]

I mean the point would be me being able to believe that you’ve actually sorted ari as only-scum-with-fire

I'm afraid ur just gonna have to trust me on this one my be-trunked friend

datisi, when you asked about the list earlier, the reason you were an exception wasn't bc I was TRing you at that point, but more because I objected more to everyone else than to you, but didn't want to elaborate as I wanted to allow some more natural interactions to play out w/out me influencing them

i am not sure i understand the difference between the two? (and also why are you healing me now?)

@mena while you're around can u acknowledge this pls

the difference is that atp I didn't think that you were especially towny and was therefore happy to see you on the list, just that you were less objectionable than the other names

am healing you now because I think you have become increasingly town since then -- can try to do a similar thing to why I think Relly is town for you if needed but I'm feeling kinda tired and lazy rn

[Menalque]

no problem, and also let's be honest

may ask you for elaboration

if/

when The Paranoia starts setting in

[Menalque]

yes makes sense lol

[Menalque]

It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that

could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance

NK15, I am far nicer and cuddlier than I once was but so help me god if you don’t answer this question and coalition fails I will eliminate you so fast that you don’t have time to say “wait what post was I ignoring”

[Menalque]

HEAL: fire
HEAL: ari

[Menalque]

HEAL: ducky

who is this healvote referring to?

Sorry btw, this was a joke vote for your co-mod

[Menalque]

skitter, what is your paranoia re: dats stemming from?

***

fire, if you swap out skitter and Relly then we have a deal

[Menalque]

It's the only thing able to throw off Ari off balance like that

could you please say in your own words what you mean by Ari being thrown of balance

NK15, I am far nicer and cuddlier than I once was but so help me god if you don’t answer this question and coalition fails I will eliminate you so fast that you don’t have time to say “wait what post was I ignoring”

Thrown off balance means that something unexpected happens and you are temporarily not playing normally because you don't get how to deal with that situation fast enough and/or are distracted.

ah, I should have been clearer perhaps: I am aware of what thrown off balance means, I would like you to state what in Ari's play made you think she was off balanced

[Menalque]

for now: I posted earlier on why Relly is town (414) and I stand by that. skitter has done absolutely nothing to be outside of her scum range, so while I do think she's been very towny, I think that makes her less likely to actually be town than anyone else who had been as comparatively towny

[Menalque]

I currently think that the most likely team is StD/NK15

[Menalque]

if more is needed on the skitter point then I can talk more tomorrow, I'll have more time

[Menalque]

why do you think im partnered with nk15

why do you think nk15 is scum

It’s not an associative-based read, you’re both my individual top picks for scum

I’m going to answer the second part after I hear back from NK15 on my most recent question

[Menalque]

Fire I have to go make lunch but can you remind me your scumcase on std (can be quotes of your own posts, but also if there’s anything new) and I’ll write a towncase on him and we’ll see who, uh… idk, wins?

Pedit: why std/nk15 over nk15/menalque or nk15/skitter

Is this... for me but you thought I was fire? Or it’s actually for fire?

[Menalque]

Sup, afraid today has been busier than anticipated and I’m now off on a mini-holiday! So I’ll likely not be around until Monday

[Menalque]

I’m happy with my final coalition, I think

[Menalque]

I would like to end by saying that if my coalition ends up being full town and one without me fails, I will be doing I told you so’s, but I won’t hold it against y’all

[Menalque]

I have like 5 mins while my train is about to leave

Final is me/ari/dats/relly/fire

[Menalque]

If I need to change because we don’t have numbers tell me literally right now who I need to change it to

[Menalque]

If I need to change because we don’t have numbers tell me literally right now who I need to change it to

I’m not voting StD tho

[Menalque]

Amd enjoy the holiday!

And thanks!

[Menalque]

I think your ISO was very shallow when I looked at it and I think you’re scum

There are slots I don’t love putting in (skitter, mala) but will vote for if needed as a compromise if there are not numbers

But I’m not voting for either of the slots I think are most likely to be scum to go in

[Menalque]

Thanks dats

Okay fine

HURT: fire
HEAL: skitter

[Menalque]

Thank you! Okay, we’re just heading out, have a good weekend y’all

[Menalque]

Hi I’ll be around soon, and by soon I mean later tonight or tomorrow

[Menalque]

okay I'm kinda back

[Menalque]

miles behind and disliking how I seem to be sliding into the default elimination position tho

[Menalque]

VOTE: StD

[Menalque]

I refuse to live in a world where StD is town

[Menalque]

Let's see:

[snip]

i don't know how to argue against my reads not being nuanced or "real" because they are real and i don't do a lot of nuance i don't think so that's kind of a playstyle thing i think

i think that it's menalque for reasons i've already outlined and i think you are a possible partner so it could be both of you. i need to go back to your posts and see if there's something there, i guess i owe you that but i don't know if i'll do that soon or not

[snip]

let's get into this because both things are why I think StD is probably scum

makes two claims here that are important: (1) his reads are real and (2) he's outlined why he thinks I'm scum

now, referring back to earlier StD posts:


This is probably counted in the "why mena is scum" grouping, but it's actually mostly just arguing against why Datisi's towncase for me is any good

[snip]

but not talking about me, i just don't see what's so townie. like yes there's talk about ari/skitter and there's talk about irrelephant being town but what else is there? some questions? that's in his scumrange according to the game you linked which i still think is a poor example of meta that you're trying to pigeonhole into a good argument.

regarding ari and skitter i just don't see it dude 1) he could easily back out of it if needed 2) it's NAI to have reads on certain players for being "good" or "better" 3) i don't see how he's planning for the future see point 1 4) there's a slight chance that ari/skitter are a partner that they're trying to downplay and distance from 5) not doing something last game as scum isn't really a precursor to not doing it as scum in the future if he thinks ari will "play around" his tell of her so he's not telling us what it is certainly he knows how to change his own damn meta

i dunno maybe i'm just wrong and i'm looking in the wrong place??? but i don't think your case is as ironclad as you want to believe

like look at the first para -- it's not addressing the substantive points of what dats is saying but instead trying to simplify it down to "empty ISO"

look at the second -- the only points actually relevant to me being scum are "1) he could easily back out of it if needed" and "4) there's a slight chance that ari/skitter are a partner that they're trying to downplay and distance from" -- 2, 3, and 5 are all just negative points trying to critique Datisi's reasons for me being town instead of saying why I'm scum

okay, what about earlier?

[snip]

i just don't see 146 as a jokey vibe

142 sucks unless it was a joke

i dunno man i'm not sure what this is trying to say

[snip]

i don't think 150 says at all what you are saying it says and i think you are trying hard to make it fit this narrative that he is town

[snip]

i read this iso and i get that the case is not "he lurks as scum and he's not lurking here!" but then you bring up the post count argument so i guess it kind of is? but i just don't think there's enough to really tell, i don't think the vibes feel that different

[snip]

not wanting to heal ari/skitter on the basis of clout is just as NAI as me not believing in that shit. in fact i think it's more likely to come from scum to try and pocket.

i think just because he's playing to his town meta here doesn't make him town, i think "not wanting to form townblocs until he's ready" once doesn't equate to him being town here.

[snip]

you use the phrase empty air i dunno what i'm supposed to take from this other than he was kinda lurking. i just don't know what mena's done to accomplish a solvable game. i will state i noticed he asked a lot of questions as scum and hasn't done that exactly here so maybe there's something there but i'm not seeing it. i don't even like meta arguments anyway i'm just indulging it for the sake of argument but i just don't see it, sorry.

[snip]

maybe

[snip]

the two town cases look a little different i'll give you that but i don't think it's outside the realm of possibility they come from the same alignment.

[snip]

still yuck, you're trying to throw everything against the wall to see what sticks

[snip]

674 looks performative to me like "look i can't be scum i'm hunting but i'm not going to tell you how hehe"

look at these on their own. is any single one really a believable reason for a read? like, they're all about trying to argue for why Datisi's reasons are bad but they're not advancing why I'm actually scum

146 "doesn't seem jokey" 150 "doesn't say what you think" "don't think the vibes feel that different" "not wanting to heal ari/skitt is NAI'" -- not even scum, just NAI "just because he's playing to his town meta doesn't make him town" "hasn't accomplished a solvable game" "not out of the real of possibility they came from the same alignment" "still yuck, trying to throw everything at the wall to see what sticks"

not until the FINAL POINT do we hear anything approaching a positive reason for why datisi is wrong and I'm scum, which is an old fallback of StD's that we'll talk about again, "674 looks performative to me"

VOTE: menalque i don't think i'm convinced by datisi's case

i don't think the meta argument that this is not his scum game is a very good one, the game linked doesn't have a ton of posts from him and i don't think it's outside the play other than he lurked i guess but he kinda lurked a little here too

the post count argument sucks sorry

someone tell me i'm crazy paranoid for thinking datisi and menalque are the team and they took a concerted effort to force me out of the coalition by sandbagging me at the last minute and datisi bringing menalque's star upward

there's no way. they both had each other in their coalition somewhat early too.

[snip]

i think this was mena's first heal, so if they are the team i guess they would have had to decide to both be in the coalition or to try for it

looking back i'm not sure why irrelephant got pushed up and i got pushed down despite having similar takes on the game that sounds like a playstyle thing not a scum thing that bothers me a bit

i dunno if you want a reason for the vote maybe his iso is shallow. no but seriously i think the tone is off it feels fake to me at times

i want to look at ari a bit next

"if you want a reason for the vote maybe his iso is shallow. no but seriously i think the tone is off it feels fake to me at times"

so again, there's a shitload of qualification as he makes the vote "maybe" his iso is shallow "feels fake to me

at times

". it's "the vibes" that are off. so far

the only actual reason that StD has given is that I've been performative at one point

the

entirety of his game and "read" on me have been based around that since post 146

there is no progression here. there is no nuance. there is no development or weighing or genuine intent to engage with what is being said.

what is there are excuses to continue voting where he wants, sidestepping engagements with actual arguments, and clinging on to self-reference when asked to justify anything

[snip]

ari - i don't know. i mean i think it's genuine i think there's something about her posts that i just *believe* you know. i get the paranoia though.

datisi started off as a scumread for me but maybe i was wrong about it but maybe my gut was onto something there. i don't know, i need to read datisi again, but i remember really liking a lot of his posts

irrelephant i just don't think is scum. there's a small tiny teensy weensy part of me that is like "what if they're scum trying to pocket you" but i guess i don't really see the point so i'm not really indulging this theory

menalque suspects me for reasons that in my opinion are weird or NAI so i don't know it's hard for me to ignore that but i should probably get over it like i said and see what else this slot contains. i still think the entrance was potential performative scum entrance but i dunno about other stuff

i don't really see skitter as scum but i don't know this seems kind of different from the go game skitter seems to have more energy and thread presence but maybe that's because the go game was a large and it's easier to get lost. also i knew she was scum because i was traitor so i probably didn't analyze her posting as much as i could have. arg i don't have a good reason to sr skitter though; i've really liked her posts.

[snip]

so what about StD's other reads? what are the reasons behind them?

ari "there's something about her posts that I just *believe*"
datisi "maybe my gut was on to something there" "remember really liking a lot of his posts"
irrelephant "just don't think is scum"
skitter closer to actual reasons but still incredibly weak and unconvincing "skitter has more energy and thread presence". "I don't have a good reason to sr skitter" "I've really liked her posts"

mena "suspects me for weird or NAI reasons" "performative entrance"

are these believably, on the balance of probabilities, real thoughts? does StD have an opinion on absolutely everyone yet not have the capacity to say for a single one where his feelings of whether they're town or scum come from apart from "gut" or "vibe" or "I just think so"

because, as I've said before, if you can't give the reasons why your gut feels a certain way, then you don't have a reason for it and you're just guessing. unless you're right A LOT, in which case it should be easy to provide lots of evidence if you don't happen to already be a player known to be insanely accurate (e.g. Thor, Cabd etc)

the sorts of things above are exactly the type of thing scum do and say -- pick who your target is, don't re-evaluate, lack of actual reasons for suspicion, lack of beyond surface level thinking about that, focus on attacking reasons against why they're town instead of making your case for why they're scum

but let's go back to before this too, for the sake of ~progressions~:

i'm starting to think maybe i need to be okay with a coalition without me in it which makes me sad

Menalque - i wish he posted more, i wish he was around now, we'll see but i've felt good about the slot but i'm also nervous because i feel like it's the slot i might mostly likely be wrong about but i'm willing to trust people if they say menalque is good

Not Known 15 - more like not in a coalition 15. but probably town so maybe it's okay to have them in a coalition?

Skitter30 - skitter seems pure i really want them in the coalition. i've liked their emotion, their solviness, i think this is town

fireisredsir - i dunno!!!! i'm waffling so hard on this, is it town is it scum, i think i'd probably choose to leave him off just because i'm so unsure. i really like some of their recent posting, it seems town, and i liked their energy in the beginning, but i hated the way he scumread me, and i didn't really agree with his read on irrel either. i think ari had some good points about his early play.

Datisi - i'm not really afraid of the flirting and i hear ari's argument that datisi tr her so early if he always scum reads her that's a little concerning for a pocket attempt. but he seems engaged and is not trying to take control of the thread in a way that seems like he's trying to solve and justify his reads. i don't think he was trying to get into the coalition in a way that seems town, not in a way that seems like scum hiding to let their partner get in

Aristeia - again i'm not afraid of the flirting, maybe afraid isn't the right word. anyway she seems genuine and i'm sure she could fool me but i trust my read and i think she is town here.

Irrelephant11 - i really don't get any suspicion here i feel like he's trying to lead the game and i've mindmelded so much with his thought process. i want him in the coalition.

Save the Dragons - that's me!

Malakittens - i'm actually worried the increased posting comes from a scummy desperate hail mary to try and get into a coalition but maybe i'm reading it wrong, either way i'm too concerned to let her in. maybe it's a little omgusy but i'm also not convinced of her scumread of me

my preferred pool is me and 4 of {skitter, irrelephant, aristeia, datisi} which is 4 so i guess that's a coalition. i could do menalque if people really believe but i don't think i could do a coalition that strays too far from what i've said.

i wish there was a case i could argue against

i feel like fire is like vibes but i think my vibes are townie
i feel like mala is like i can't read you but i don't know why that's the case
i feel like menalque is...actually i dunno :< why are you scumreading me?

but all three can't be scum so i guess i'm doing something wrong and i'm afraid it's affecting the people who read me correctly initially and i guess it's affecting me more than it should

soooo pre-coalition I'm someone he's "felt good about" and he's "willing to trust" people who say I'm town

NK15 is "probably town" for "[no reason given]"
skitter "seems really pure"
fire is "seems town" bc "liked their energy" but "hated the way he scumread me" for "[no reason given]"
dats has actual reasons supplied
ari "seems genuine" and he "trusts [his] gut"
Relly "mindmelded" (where?) and is "trying to lead the game" -- why is this town? but it is a reason so I guess kudos on including that
mala -- "increased posting could be a scummy Hail Mary" this is an actual reason, I guess, but it's more absolute surface level engagement

this is a really busywork and meaningless readslist. there's actual explanations attached to less than half the players, and those are often weak and often fakeable. tellingly, I think his progression on me is bad because he suddenly is willing to go with me and has felt good about me but most of his earlier interaction is as seen below

I don't think it's believable that StD's reads are real. I don't think that it makes sense that StD is suddenly okay with my posts and alright with my being on the coalition only to then immediately switch back to me being scummy for fundamentally a reason that has been consistent from the start of the game.

if that reason were genuinely compelling to StD, StD would not have been okay with me going on the coalition. if it were not, and that's why he changed his mind, then his reasons for scum reading me now would be different but all we've had is critiques of Datisi's towncase and a return to the "performative" argument. along with some very non-specific "shallow ISO" comments that haven't been evidenced at all


and our final selection for the flight this afternoon:

i tend to scum read

performative

entrances

i think people have trouble getting into the thread as scum and overcompensate by being zealous or bombastic or performative

In 146 I was trying to make it clear that I was aware that 145 was not actually a compelling argument at all

But once I’d had the idea of the argument, I decided to post it anyway, because it would be funny to make a post that was trash arguing for why I’m town, only to immediately give a wink wink nudge nudge acknowledgement that it wasn’t that at all

ok how is this not

performative

Spoiler: brief point I also wanted to make but thought the ending was punchier if I finished with the above posts

also wanted to again briefly touch on how I don't think it adds up that StD is arguing about scumrange (mine, specifically) later, when this is apparently something that doesn't concern StD

this is really a playstyle gripe and is nai as far as i'm concerned

I mean I’m writing it off as mostly NAI but I think you’re wrong to take that position and I find it odd that you don’t find the reasons for why I think you’re wrong compelling

It’s the not seeing why the reasons are compelling (or perhaps me not understanding why you don’t find them compelling) that makes me suspect they may be false reasons to justify putting ari/skitt into the coalition more easily, which I would want to do if scum because it would be good cover for me

i mean i think you're wrong for putting people on a pedestal and having that affect your reads on them in this game so i'm not sure why i would find your reasons compelling

like i intellectually understand why you're doing that

but i don't think it's right

[Menalque]

I am not certain but I'm heading in the direction where I think that this may be the best play

need to do due diligence on other slots too, but I think that StD redding essentially solves the game?

[Menalque]

Fucked if I know

There’s a reason I want to do StD first

[Menalque]

1484

[Menalque]

Menalque do you understand that mechanically we have to lim inside the coalition? There's guaranteed scum inside the coalition, while those outside the coalition could possibly be 4 townies

I understand that there is only guaranteed scum in the coalition

I also know that limming successfully outside coalition gives 3 conftown

STD is semi-conftown and being entirely ignored!

i felt this in my soul because i feel like i took effort to be less vibey and more analytically for the gamestate and i got mostly shot down and it made me feel small ngl so i appreciate you seeing me i know i'm being a little too emotional and need to step back but i did appreciate this so thank you

the fact you have the same scum read as i still means you're either pocketing me hard for no reason because i have no influence in this gamestate or we're kindred town and we may be onto something here so i'm thinking it's the latter

I would be really impressed if StD wrote me this post as scum. Like, really impressed.

But I'll hear you out, Menalque. If you're town and StD is scum, why do you think the last second swap happened to get you into the coalition? Do you think scum got what they wanted there or no?

what about this post makes it so hard for StD to write as scum?

what do you mean last second swap? you mean the NK15 hammer? I think if that's what you mean it should be p much clearing for a me/NK15 team

if I were wrong on StD it could be that NK15 was hammering to try and make us look aligned

[Menalque]

You actually make some good points, though I also think you make some bad ones. Like 1 a big part of your read seems to require the least charitable meaning of some of StD's words. But town do that sometimes, especially when OMGUS-ing, so like I said I'm willing to hear you out.

I'll feel real bad if StD is scum because I've really fought for him but also on second thought, not that bad, because it's not like anyone else was voting for a scumless coalition Day 1 either even if he is scum


pedit: I mean I'm not voting outside the coalition, not sure if anyone else will. And it's not like I'm even asking you to not scumread StD, 2 just find his partner if you're so sure it's him

"if I were wrong on StD it could be that NK15 was hammering to try and make us look aligned"..... I'll let you rethink this one on your own time

(1) okay, where am I doing this? I'm aware it's something I do at times but I try to catch myself in check

(2) well, yes, ideally, but I am confident in StD scum and not sure who is scum out of (you, ari, skitt) at this point

I think datisi is town, though

[Menalque]

what about this post makes it so hard for StD to write as scum?

Nothing about it is "hard" to write as scum

sidenote: what is with everyone's obsession on MS with sorting people by "hard to do as scum" vs "easy to do as scum"? The same stuff is hard and easy for both alignments most of the time. We should all be sorting by "more likely to be a thing this person does if they're scum than if they're town" vs "more likely to be a thing this person does if they're town than if they're scum". I think it's very unlikely that scum!StD thinks to humbly thank me for amplifying his voice.

what do you mean last second swap? you mean the NK15 hammer? I think if that's what you mean it should be p much clearing for a me/NK15 team

It's very much not clearing for a you/NK15 team. You can say it's done to frame you, but even in doing so, you acknowledge that it makes you look bad. Which it does.

if you are town. StD, if town, would say that and it would make you more likely to TR them. if StD would/could make the exact same post as scum quite easily, then the post is meaningless when it comes to determining StD's alignment.

if it's very, very difficult for someone to make a post as scum but easy for them to make it as town (see: perspective slips) then that person is more likely to be town, even if it's not for sure.

one thing that is normally hard for scum to do is to having convincing read progressions because they already have all of the info on who is good and bad. therefore someone who has lots of clear progressions in their read and you can see how they're thinking about things and reassessing is someone doing something that's hard to do as scum (pretend you don't have knowledge of anyone's alignments and then read their posts as if you can do that while also playing into a larger strategic plan which requires you to fabricate reasons to TR/SR strategically important players) vs easy to do as town (just playing the game and trying to solve lol) is incredibly likely town, and it's a useful metric

***

it's clearing for a me/NK15 team bc how the fuck does that team win in elo if NK15 hammers my coalition when we're both scum?

[Menalque]

You still here?

Do you have any partners for StD that feel likely to you? I'll even accept "Irrel" as an answer if that's where you're at, I just want to hear you talk it out. Or you could discuss how Day 2 has gone if you'd rather. You're pretty important to sort right now, I guess is what I'm saying, and you can make that easier by doing more solving

I'm missing about 4-5 pages from the middle of D2 so it's hard to judge in total

I think datisi is town still but idk where scum would be between (you/skitt/ari) atp

from what I read of the ari/skitt back and forth I'd probably lean skitter town there of the two, but ari/dats don't make a lot of sense as scum (I hope!) and I thought the argument ari made about how she wouldn't throw dats under the bus as a fall-person is true

but then that leaves you, which could be correct, but I feel greater conviction in my StD read and wonder if you would tie yourselves together so much

plus neither of skitt or ari have done anything that would be that difficult for them to do as scum

[Menalque]

ur posts

[Menalque]

no but seriously I have the energy to go through ISOs à la StD like once a day at best

if you want a lot of details I'll go through it when I can, but the cliff notes version is that I believe your TR on me and have seen evidence of you solving/thinking that I think would be not necessarily out of your scumrange but I also just don't see how it would fit into a grander scheme

for instance, I don't think you needed to commit on me being town pre-coalition and I don't think you necessarily would want me as town in with you as scum, and I don't think you'd then feel the need to white knight me for cred? I'm still mulling over but it just seemed v unlikely when I was thinking about it in relation to what you've done

[Menalque]

okay class ahh

[Menalque]

@fire, I need to read you again, but it's the combination of the two things I mentioned

not only is it StD's trajectory on me (where, okay, I guess you sorta raise a good point about going back to original reasons) but it's also the total lack of explanation for the reads he does have beyond waffle or non-reasons

then when it comes to me, he hasn't framed it really in a "well I just really really TR the others and so I guess you're scum by default" way, but he's been saying that he's given reasons why he thinks I'm scum etc that... just aren't really there? so, sure, attacking the town case makes sense if he thinks I'm scum... only I don't actually believe he thinks I'm scum, because he hasn't said why, other than some stuff about a shallow ISO and continuing to argue that I'm performative based on... a still-in-RVS joke? (and like one other thing later that he also claimed was performative)

those are very weak reasons if you have an actual read on someone -- and he's clearly not so SO convinced on ari/skitt/dats being all town because if he were then why make 1222?

I don't think the whole thing adds up right from the parts

(the performative thing was formatted that way for amusement, the point was that he's only basically given two reasons for why I'm scum and one of them hinges incredibly hard on me being performative, and that scum are more performative -- which dats has already rebutted for me, by pointing out I tend to like a performance as either alignment)

[Menalque]

oh, the reason I meant to say I needed to re-read you again is that I thought I remembered actual reasons beyond just "vibez" in your reads, even if you also had "bad vibes" as a justification at points

[Menalque]

in something that may be entirely unconvincing as a reason to not lim me but which should be considered afterwards -- I think it's +town equity for both dats and skitt to try to stick out their necks for me bc as scum you really want to assure a town lim on D1 and I don't think the towncred for being right on me if I'm flipped would be enough to narrow the pool down for them -- especially when they've both gone fairly(?) hard on it, to the point I think either would struggle to convincingly pivot tomorrow and would have to try to keep me around until elo

[Menalque]

everyone whose name is not menalque, please ignore this post for now

Subject: Micro 952 - The Coalition: ItGBSMoD [game over!]

all that happens if it fails if we put you on it is that we end up voting you out after we vote out wug.

Err, no, because if the coalition fails we are not [guillotining] outside of it until we hit scum

mena, can you comment on this post pls

Listen, you’re not gonna love this:

I changed my mind

[Menalque]

it's clearing for a me/NK15 team bc how the fuck does that team win in elo if NK15 hammers my coalition when we're both scum?

I don't know but if he hadn't you two might have just lost in the coalition phase, that's why it's damning. Why am I explaining this to you, you either genuinely didn't realize it as town or are playing dumb, it's not like I'll convince you why your play makes you scum

I think I was p likely going in anyway, but admittedly I wasn’t up-to-date at deadline

bleh I think menalque's entrance does feel towny actually but his actual *actions* (to try to lim outside the coalition) are pretty scummy with obvious scum motivation (e.g. the towny townies in the coalition are too towny to win against in a 1v1, both scum might be in the coalition, etc)

I don’t think there’s anything inherently scummy about wanting to lim outside the coalition? It’s risk/reward — bigger risk, bigger reward

Second point is mostly fair, there’s nobody here I’d *want* to 1v1 as scum, but I am, if nothing else, a practical scum player

Do you think I consider myself to have a better chance of winning a 1v1 or limming outside of the coalition?

[Menalque]

because: your read on irellephant and me shouldn't be so disparate if you're town. you call my iso shallow but provide no reasons why you're scumreading me, it reads as fake. you're reading my playstyle and judging me for it. your tone reads as fake.

you're bananas if you seriously think there's no progression, no re-evaluation, no reasons

i've given reasons for voting you throughout the game, you given reasons for voting me once just now. i've had a progression on you that makes sense where i've changed my mind over and over. it's nuanced with different factors like you scumreading me for no reason, you not being around, me worrying about not being able to read you

Okay I’m ignoring the rest for now because it’s long and I’m tired and I’m on my phone

This is good tho, you’re actually providing reasons now!

So essentially, I’m scum because:
(1) my read on you and relly should be similar
(2) I called your iso shallow but didn’t say why
(3) I’m reading you based on play style
(4) fake tone — blah, unless you want to expand

Am I being ungenerous or inaccurate in summarising any of those points/are there any more you’d like to add before I get back to you?

[Menalque]

Not voting menalque yet because I think it could hammer w/o me online and I don't want skitter/datisi/anyone to feel like the day ended before they were ready, feels rude. But it's there in spirit

yea no mena/nk case necessary, id be down to vote there as well

Kinda feels like it should be necessary!

[Menalque]

I feel like I promised it.

menalque case ig

Just like... reread EOD1. menalque loses all sense of reads when he has a chance into the coalition. NK15 loses all sense of reads when he has a chance to hammer a coalition with mena. Three of us tried really hard to get a coalition w/o menalque and it failed, but probably would have succeeded if scum had wanted it. menalque and nk15 are just haphazardly trying to find anyone limmable today. It's a wrap (I hope and pray)

This would be a great case if the plan for a me/NK15 team was “Step 1) hammer coalition step 2) ???? Step 3) magically win in elo”

[Menalque]

Also given that we have around 3 days left and there’s no PRs and I’ve very clearly not been able to play, maybe we slow the fuck up on ending day before I get testy

Especially when if I get my teeth into things I can do things like what I did in ktane, which if I do here and anyone doesn’t see I’m town, they’re essentially scumclaiming

[Menalque]

I’m also saying it now: if I get flipped today and I tell you that I have a high confidence interval in StD scum (or I get to a similarly high confidence interval on someone in coalition)

I want that person flipped tomorrow no questions asked

Ari, look me in the eyes and tell me that’s an unreasonable request given how incredibly right I was last time

[Menalque]

And you know very well why I’m calling it out to you specifically

[Menalque]

You have three votes on you

What do you think of NK15’s case on me/std as the team

I don’t have particular thoughts yet beyond what I mentioned earlier which is that I think it’s questionable if you would tie yourselves together so much

And you know very well why I’m calling it out to you specifically

Me specifically? Or someone else

The hint is the person explicitly named in the last paragraph of the post before

[Menalque]

I did not but I’m about to go to sleep

Essentially I revisited fire and once I was happy with fire town I thought ari was much more likely to be as well

[Menalque]

-vaguely irritated that he has to do this instead of being merely accepted as a beacon of towniness? check

[Menalque]

Okay I’m tired enough to sleep now pls leave further questions for me after this but not too many thanks

[Menalque]

sup

[Menalque]

if he doesn't think this will work doesn't it just make this performative?

I was thinking it probably wouldn't fly but figured it might if I could get skitt and datisi on board -- either way, it's hopefully useful after I get flipped if I do go down today

I'd kinda forgotten that skitt was TRing StD

Also given that we have around 3 days left and there’s no PRs and I’ve very clearly not been able to play, maybe we slow the fuck up on ending day before I get testy

Especially when if I get my teeth into things I can do things like what I did in ktane, which if I do here and anyone doesn’t see I’m town, they’re essentially scumclaiming

I don't think I've been trying to rush the day at all.

You should know that I want you to push someone inside the coalition because pushing outside is kind of a non starter?

We didn't put all the LHFs outside to begin pushing them now coalition has failed.

the "rush the day" comment was directed at Relly

and we put them outside because they were non-townie, not because they were LHF -- not sure I get the relevance of the point here on if we should lim there or not, or are you saying it's harder to find the scum among the scummy players than to find the real town amongst the towny ones?

[Menalque]

Mena can you talk to me about why you think Mala is town this game since KTANE ended and she basically awoled all of that game too

I don't think I've ever said that mala is town based on what she's done

to the extent I think she is, it's an extrapolation from StD being scum rather than based on her own play

[Menalque]

Ari is saying you're townier than mena by comparison in that you got involved in the me/dats thing and mena didnt

this was over the weekend?

[Menalque]

Mena i feel p strongly that std is town and i dont think i'll be voting him today

can you tell me why

I'm going to try to engage (*shudders*) with the monstrosity of a wall of text he posted yesterday, but I wasn't seeing it based on the final paragraphs that I did read

[Menalque]

with no intentional offence to mala, I have no idea what to expect from her and that she's done fuck all today doesn't really tell me anything about whether she's scum who's avoiding everything, or town who is just not helpful

or in other words: yes, she's playing similarly to her scumgame from Ktane, but idk if she just plays like that all the time

what she hasn't done is try to give fake reasons for reads or to act like she's town -- that could just be bc she's scum and lazy, but I think StD has been more actively incriminating himself by trying to

look

town and only one of them can be scum

that make sense?

[Menalque]

increasingly bad as he continues to tunnel me and not acknowledge that NK15 hammering a coalition with me in it is dumb as fucking bricks for a team made up of the two of us

[Menalque]

but I'd feel a whole lot better about that if you and skitter weren't also in the coalition

we all play the hand we're dealt

[Menalque]

actually sure

VOTE: relly

[Menalque]

dumb as fucking bricks

based on past meta i don't think this is very clearing lol

but i don't think it should be a major point either way

I don't have much experience with NK15 but unless he has a meta of completely ignoring scum partners then you should pay attention to it

because if we were scum together I would have been screaming at him to not lolhammer a coalition that's likely going through anyway right before I go away and in such a way that inevitably ties him to me after I get limmed on probably D2 or D3

and I'd rather have gambled on ending up inside anyway than KNOW that I would then have to play out this day phase as it is going

[Menalque]

it was e-2 no?

[Menalque]

anyway, it's probably a digression to go into it now because nobody is going to accept that it's a point that makes eminent sense during the day, and it'll have to be something that I resist pettily pointing at in post-game and going "see? SEE?"

[Menalque]

me you skitter nk

oh, I just looked at VC from hydra

I don't have much experience with NK15 but unless he has a meta of completely ignoring scum partners then you should pay attention to it

yea this was exactly the point, he does

oh

well then yes I guess it's less clearing lol

[Menalque]

i gotta take my tue/wed v/la this week because uni is hell and i need to sleep - will try to properly read and digest the mena/std thing tomorrow during my commute

sleep well dats! hope uni gets better

pedit ok maybe this is like another prism situation and he's doing all this to get me to townread him and i'm veryu susceptible to that
but like beyond that motivation this seems like an *incredibly* questionable path for scum-him to take here when he's in quite immediate danger of getting flipped

I dunno I just feel really weird about him not having a top suspect in the coalition cuz thats the only thing i've been thinking about for the last 3-4 days and he's like "i dont have a clue lets go kill std instead" and that's very ???? to me?

it's been hard to have a top suspect in the coalition when I've basically not been around for most of D2

so I did what I could in the time I had, looked again at who I thought was scum, found things that reinforced the read, and went for that

now that I have time I'm trying to sort more in the coalition, but I've already said that it could have been any of (Relly, you, skitt) from the brief glance I took when I was able to

[Menalque]

what does it look like I am doing

[Menalque]

where have I even asked, let alone shouted at or berated or wheedled anyone into voting StD since dropping whatever the post was where I made that case

[Menalque]

to be fair he has a history of doing things like 'fake-guiltying his partner'
but like said partner was catboi and catboi has a much better chance of carrying than like nk15 here

also in that game he just announced the fake-guilty and dipped for literally a week before getting replaced. he didn't talk about it, try to explain his thought process, or really do anything, just radio silence immediately thereafter
he's spent like the entire day today defending his position in numerous iterations and from various angles

could just be an irl thing of having more time today than he did then
but i also think he cares more about the outcome and getting his way now then he did then

NB: I fake guilted catboi there because he and S_S suggested the fake guilty, wasn't my idea

Okay I’m tired enough to sleep now pls leave further questions for me after this but not too many thanks

why do you think im partnered with nk15

why do you think nk15 is scum

It’s not an associative-based read, you’re both my individual top picks for scum

I’m going to answer the second part after I hear back from NK15 on my most recent question

don't think you ever answered the second part

why do these points you're making about lack of progression and lack of believable reasons for reads apply to std and not nk15

like what made him your target for today instead of nk when they were previously both your top scumreads

maybe it didn't look like a question cause it didn't have a question mark so here you go:

?????

he never actually answered the second bit but smh

the second part was that I wanted to hear what he thought showed that ari was "thrown off balance" in his own words without prompting to see if I believed that he would think [insert part of Ari's posting here] was actually her being thrown off-balance, or if he was just talking shit and saying "they seemed off balance" because that's an easy thing to say and to look like you're doing something

I was more interested in StD because he had more of the "trying to look like he's sorting" than NK15 in his ISO, whereas NK15 was just... sort of there, doing his own shit, and not really worrying about looking like scum

it's possible I'm being big-brained here and lolhammering the coalition is just what NK15 does as scum because why not if your partner is in there, but that still seems like a gamble if you're not very, very confident you can win in 5p

[Menalque]

like for irrelephant i just think it's much cleaner and easier line for him to play into the dats/skitter conflict and maybe chain your elims rather than being like "no we r going to kill mena" who you both townread.

It's a gamble yea but like most of the time scum don't burn towncred if they don't need to and if the elim is falling inside dats/skitter he doesn't really need to?

did anyone actually want to ever kill dats/skitt outside of dats/skitt?

[Menalque]

I did not but I’m about to go to sleep

Essentially I revisited fire and once I was happy with fire town I thought ari was much more likely to be as well

ok did any of that thought process end up in thread?

uh

no

Like you were saying earlier we need to weigh actions on the spectrum of 'does it make more sense for town or scum to do this'

You've successfully shown that this is bizarre as town, but i'm saying that its equally bizarre as scum (and you havent explained why this is inherently *scummy* of him, just not townie) so its hard for me to view this as damning

I want to townlock skitter for this

but I'm worried that she would defend me as either alignment here because as town I believe that she's able to read me this well

yet as scum she benefits a lot from being right tomorrow and would be able to get a Relly misflip almost for sure, and have good odds of winning in ari/dats

although now I say that maybe not given how hard ari/dats have been on each other being town? so maybe I can townlock skitt if defending me makes her life harder or she just doesn't need to do it, and it doesn't make the game overall that much easier (as in, she would still prob die in 5p and be reliant on her partner to win)

[Menalque]

datisi can you give me the cliff notes on why ari is town once you're back please

[Menalque]

just fyi I let you get that pagetop, ydra

[Menalque]

We can lim me today so long as the following order is relly -> ari no exceptions

[Menalque]

Sorry, I just don’t feel there’s enough time left/that I’m willing to make a big enough effort (given that players in mafia are notoriously bad at actually taking a step back and seeing that they’re confbiased) to try to avoid this

So I will content myself (hopefully) with being right here and trust that town see this out afterwards once my flip clarifies that relly is full of shit

[Menalque]

menalque pls explain how std redding solves the game

If StD reds we have 3 conftown in NK15, mala, and fire

Scum have to kill the conftown

It also basically clears me until elo (at which point sure, paranoia if I’m not dead and game is still going) so we just lim relly->ari and the game ends

It’s basically GG if you flip red and the coalition scum isn’t incredibly deep

[Menalque]

See it’s you saying shit like that that makes me think you’re scum

This is exactly what you did in ktane, sidestepping the broader point to try and focus in on small inconsistencies

[Menalque]

but i thought the "it solves the game" had more, like, associates in mind

Nope, just in the mechanical sense provided I right

[Menalque]

Doesn’t literally every slot that is not skitt/dats think I am likely scum lol

Like I just saw that NK15 is apparently down to hammer

You just tried to bait a hammer on me

3 people are voting me

Ari has been angling to be able to vote me

[Menalque]

when the game state is saying that irrel probly gets flipped today.

Truly bizarre take on the gamestate given what I outlined 5 secs ago

[Menalque]

Because I’ve not been here all day phase

And frankly I don’t have the energy to deal with relly/std without being unpleasant

So I’m not going to

And people tend to view a lack of response to a case as an inability to do so

Again: see ktane

[Menalque]

We can lim me today so long as the following order is relly -> ari no exceptions

I am also good with this

Yes obviously you’re going to say that lol

[Menalque]

We won ktane so I think I’ll do whatever I want

[Menalque]

but like, flip me and mena in the list

Okay self vote then

I’ll state right now that if I don’t do absolutely nothing to resist the lim tomorrow it’s a scumclaim

[Menalque]

Okay self then

[Menalque]

but like, why? we were already townreading him before, and he's doing actions that sink him with others in order to... further pocket those who he had pocketed already? like

Because I’m the biggest brained scum of all the big brained scum datiis, and somehow I’m going to carry those skitter+you TRs to a win!!

[Menalque]

Oh Oof I’m starting to get a bit toxic and almost made a much more toxic post which means it’s time to log off

Nighty night, please kill Relly for me while I’m gone

[Menalque]

Okay self then

Why did you post this?

because I was frustrated and also because Relly is apparently certain I'm scum and doesn't want to consider any other flip

I've outright stated that if we flip Relly first and he flips town, I won't fight my lim tomorrow and that if I try to do so it's a scumclaim

now I don't know if town!him would actually do it, but I'd expect town!him to at least weigh it up if it leads to his guaranteed desired lim on who he's supposedly sure is scum, but scum him can never even entertain the idea because it's essentially a throw

[Menalque]

i guess i can do irrelephant cuz i dont like listening to toxic mena rage at me ~.~

I'd like to point out that since my return I've played like 5 games and have been toxic in none of them (I hope) so this doesn't seem like an accurately founded concern

[Menalque]

like if you're going to vote Relly do it because you think he's scum not because you're worried about something that won't happen

[Menalque]

also hi Roden, nice to see you

[Menalque]

mena i just want to be clear here

if irrel flips town you get flipped tomm and you never call bop in any game with me again ok?

If we flip Relly today and he flips town then yes, I get flipped tomorrow -- I'm not committing never pulling BoP in any games ever again and talking about this is tantalisingly close to OOG, if I understand the rules correctly

I think scum is in you and Relly -- I am never 100% certain but I think atp that skitt and dats are town and that scum is in the two of you. I'm trusting dats, maybe a little reluctantly because I haven't really

really

thought about how good his reasons for town!you are, that you're town

but to be clear: I am not saying there is no way that Relly can be town here. I'm saying that I prefer him to you!scum and currently think I prefer him as lim. I also know I'm town and it's better that he die than me given that I think he has high odds of being scum

like if you're going to vote Relly do it because you think he's scum not because you're worried about something that won't happen

I'm going to vote for Irrel today because that's the elimination you want to happen and I personally don't enjoy the type of things you've said about me. I do not want it to get more unpleasant.

I wanted to leave this be and address it in post but unfortunately I think it is game relevant

I do not want you to vote Relly because I want that lim to happen. I'm not sure what things I've said about you that have been unpleasant but sorry if they were. if you can point me at what I've said that has been hurtful that would be helpful because I don't know what it is I did that has made this unpleasant for you

I am not going to shout at you if you decide that you prefer to lim me > Relly

I would like you to acknowledge that while I am sometimes wrong I am also sometimes dead right, and that while I don't consider myself a great player I also don't think I'm dogshit and I don't like to be made to feel that way

[Menalque]

if I've made the game unpleasant for anyone else by my conduct, I also apologise for that

I am and have been attempting to play in a way that is as free of AtE as possible since my return (if I may not quite live up to that standard it's because I am only human) and additionally to try and keep things light and fun while playing to wincon

but it is more important to me that nobody feels like shit as a result of the game than that I win, so again, sorry to anybody who has been made to feel that way. happy to discuss more in postgame as this seems like a fraught topic while flips haven't happened

(again, Ari, while I don't want to linger on the point it would be very helpful to me if you could point out what I've said/where I was unpleasant to you bc I'm really sort of lost)

[Menalque]

I feel as though I am in a catch-22 where I either push hard for something I'm not sure about (often bad outcome) or I don't push hard for it and my passivity/uncertainty gets scumread and makes me an easier lim (bad outcome)

I, generally, have been trying to move away from BoP shit and acting like my reads are the shit when I know they're not, but also unsure how to get people invested in something if I'm not committing hard myself

to clarify, I guess: I would like to be listened to if I get flipped because I don't think my reads are total shit, but I also don't think they're mind-blowing or anything like that. I am now somewhat unsure if StD is scum but he still seems likely to me? fire has been consistently townie imo, and Roden has improved the mala slot a lot, although who knows, maybe I'm biased or being pocketed because his reasons for TRing me make a lot of sense fmpov

guess it could be NK15 who hammered because a different partner was in coalition and it would make me look bad but I'm not sure who

Relly seems way too sure about me and it's like he's fronting, and from what I can glean an important part of why he came after me seems to be because I wasn't here. I'm sure he wouldn't say that was the reason, but that's how it feels to me when he makes reference to "how I've played D2" when... I was away on holiday with two of my best friends for most of it, and then it was another best friend's -- who is also my flatmate -- birthday after getting back

Skitter and Dats are endless sources of paranoia for me but I've been trying to avoid bringing that into thread because I don't think it's that helpful. the summary reason is that while I think both of them can read me very well, I also wonder if they would try to deliberately white knight me for the towncred if they think I have a good chance of getting flipped anyway. probably more paranoid about skitt because I think her range is wider and I could see her angling to win in 5p after lims on me/relly if we're both town

ari -- I think I've had a decent read on in recent games but frankly also has a monster range and that's paranoia inducing too. I know her scumgame is to just survive, and I'm worried about whether she's also thinking about 5p elo after limming me/relly in either order. I'm mostly trusting dats and really

really

hoping my read there is right, bc I have also had paranoia about whether ari/dats could actually be possible where they gang up to take down skitter after there being t/t lims on me and relly, but I thought that was unlikely because it's such a 100% committal play and I'm not sure it goes through after me/relly go down because I think ari probably comes out of that looking worst -- I guess the hope could be a win for dats in 3p elo but dats living there would be a red flag

[Menalque]

I think Relly is on balance of probabilities more likely to be scum than Ari but I wouldn't say I'm so confident that I'd be surprised if I have it the wrong way round

that sucks if it is the wrong way round because I'm dying tomorrow for sure

I don't think it's skitter or dats, and kudos to either one (or both, perish the thought) if they're scum -- if it is one I'd say probably skitter but again her defending me seems needlessly complicated for what would be a hard 5p elo to win anyway, and I'm hoping that train of thought is correct

Relly seems to be keen for/worried about getting this lim in a way that I think town!him would be less so about, because he'd know that I die tomorrow which is not *that* big a loss even if limming scum!me today is obviously better fhpov

[Menalque]

uh like a day and a half I think

[Menalque]

bit less, 1 day 8hrs from this post

[Menalque]

1903 and 1905 are as honest as I can be about my thought process through the game thus far and I don't really know what else to add

I'll be around in some capacity to try and answer questions or engage, but I'm not going to be making any big cases/other posts à la StD

I had been trying to hold back some of what I was thinking/where I was at on some stuff while trying to figure it all out but we're probably past that being useful now and if I am going horrendously wrong in any of what I'm thinking or how I'm perceiving the game then I need somebody to tell me

[Menalque]

Because I hate this but uhhhhhhhhh page 77 and I’m not sure Menalque is scum. Hahahahaha I feel like an insane person making this post, it feels like a death wish. But. Do we really both make “sorry for heating up the thread” posts at the same time as tvs? Lol I hate mafia

outside of you the only person I think is likely is Ari but I still think you're likely scum for the reasons I just stated and if I'm being totally honest I'm worried about having to relitigate this entire thing tomorrow if ari is town

[Menalque]

I'm also concerned that your re-evaluation may be prompted by concern that you might lose the 1v1 and that would be, to borrow a phrase from antiquity "v bad for scum"

I am however happy to try and talk in case I am wrong and it's not you

I also have to admit that I've been skimming some of your posts while you've been tunnelled on me so if you already talked about this point me at where, but what do you think of skitter this game?

[Menalque]

can you think of any reason why scum!her would commit this hard on defending me? because that's kind of the sticking point for me and why I've been sorta town binning her more than anything else

I just don't really see the motivation? I think without skitter/dats I almost certainly go down today and I don't think dats alone is necessarily enough to stop it because I think he has the most pull with ari but skitter probably has more pull with most other players in the PL

again, the only thing I can come up with is long-term towncred to try and win at 5p elo, but that seems equally do-able from skitt with just letting me go through or taking less risk from being such a voice against the current, then flipping you tomorrow for the push on me, and then having a tough 5p battle to try and win anyway

[Menalque]

I don't think I'm obvtown to everyone, but I believe skitt and dats would see it where nobody else can

there was another game before I went on hiatus (I think? can try to find it) where skitt p much singlehandedly stopped me being mislimmed despite most everyone else being convinced I was scum, which is why I can believe in her reading me correctly when it might not be so to the rest of the PL

[Menalque]

I think her voting for the wrong coalition is a town point. I think she lost the argument with Aristeia at start of d2 but I don’t think that makes her scum

again, sorry if you've been through this already, but please elaborate on the wrong coalition vote being a townpoint for her

and the argument with ari was about whether ari had agreed to sheep or not, right?

[Menalque]

I need to reread that bit because I did look it over but my memory is hazy of exactly what was said/being debated

[Menalque]

I thought she was potentially your partner for awhile there. But if you’re town…

Scum skitter wants me > you > ?? as the three mislims because that’s somehow better than you > me > ??
Probably not
Town skitter just has a strong townread and defends her friend she thinks she can read
Sounds more likely

Which is why I’ve been arguing with her so much I think, I’ve subconsciously sorted her as more likely town but I’ve thought she’s missing the obvious

Petit: I think nearly any wagon that flips in a way scum likes has scum on it. The coalition wagon flipped in a way scum likes, so I think scum was on it.

Yes that was the skitter/ari argument

One sec datisi

okay, yes, that makes sense on skitter

I guess maybe she would be worried that she might look bad for being wrong on me when she's normally incredibly good? but that seems weak because I don't think she worries about much at all when scum, and that probably doesn't get picked up on by anyone other than maybe datisi

the wagon point seems circumstantial -- reminds me of one reason why we lost the first time I played in coalition, which was bad wagonomics. I thought that a wagon that went up super fast and nearly went through immediately at start of D2 (on town) must have scum on it, but actually it was all town

[Menalque]

okay, I will be back on later (most likely), I need to hang laundry and then I have class immediately after

[Menalque]

Yeah but wagons that go through are different than wagons that don’t. I don’t know maybe I’m relying too heavily on a dumb wagon point.

Treating me as town for a sec, though, if there’s no scum on wagon and skitter is scum, her partner is in std/malakittens. I guess I could see it being mala? Anyway I just think it’s more likely at least one scum is on wagon if the coalition fails. Anecdotal town losses aside, seems statistically likely

actually, final words before leaving

I think you might be, yeah re:wagon

and yesssss, I guess so on the second bit? I doubt it would be StD though, it's the same thing as with you, in that I don't think she would tie herself so strongly to StD if they were partnered

[Menalque]

Irrelephant11 has requested replacement.

Well this fuckin sucks

Hope you’re okay, Relly

Sorry if it’s related to me

[Menalque]

BUT

still like idk how for example this post comes from the mena we're seeing now:

I’m also saying it now: if I get flipped today and I tell you that I have a high confidence interval in StD scum (or I get to a similarly high confidence interval on someone in coalition)

I want that person flipped tomorrow no questions asked

Ari, look me in the eyes and tell me that’s an unreasonable request given how incredibly right I was last time

i just don't see why town would say this so pre-emptively? but there's like multiple scum benefits to doing so (matching ktane tone to get townread by people who read that, vaguely threatening, projects confidence and a lack of fear of death while at the same time making people less likely to want to lim him)

but he says if he says he has a high confidence interval by the time he gets limmed. i don't think anywhere did he actually say he did have a high confidence interval yet. so why say this as town? it's all just bluster

It’s just different headspaces, fire

I’ve felt like I haven’t been pushed for very good reasons and haven’t had the chance to get stuck into the game

It was an ego thing, where if I was going to be mislimmed I at least wanted to know I would get to have some impact in death and sure, it sometimes feels nice to throw my weight around

Trying to break that habit but didn’t manage to when I was on that evening — I’d like to think that the version of myself I am today is who I normally am, but sometimes a form of myself I’m trying to get away from slips back out

[Menalque]

Ari, I’m just heading out for bjj and I don’t want to turn this game into being about us, but I would really appreciate it if you could point out for me where I made the game unpleasant for you so I can try to avoid doing it again

[Menalque]

Reach 120 pages in the next 4 hours challenge (impossible) (not doable) (super max difficulty) is go!

[Menalque]

Hi person who I haven’t seen on this alt before but who is incredibly obvious fortunately

[Menalque]

just dont self vote like ktane pls

for example here I am trying to get you to calm down

We won ktane so I think I’ll do whatever I want

and you're just like shut up I'll do whatever I want.


I don't know if you/irrel are t/t or t/s but when you start getting heated with him it's very hard for me to read into it and lowkey unpleasant to read and it feels like a lot of the time you're saying things to me like "I was right in Ktane so you should let me do whatever I want"

like I was asking you about who is confbiased because I don't understand your worldview and you immediately snapped at me and called me scummy for it?

It's just very exhausting for me to try to talk to you and figure this out and your feedback to me has been downright hostile and I'm not very good at dealing with it and I kind of just want to throw my hands up and not try to sort it.

like you keep implying that I'm angling to vote you and trying to treat you as scum or w/e except I wouldn't even have these criticisms of your play if I didn't think you were doing this as town. Like scum!you is welcome to be as unpleasant as he wants to win and make things difficult for me because that's literally your win condition and you're welcome to do whatever you think is necessary to get there. I would just like it if town!you stopped being so hostile because it's just ick.

Okay, I understand where you’re coming from more clearly now. I think talking about this more here is crossing into territory I don’t care to go into in games because of the inherent lack of certainty about the sincerity of what people say in a game based around lying.

Let’s discuss it in post, probably by PM. You’re right that I was being dismissive/hostile towards you and it’s for oog reasons that are related to recent games we’ve played and how I felt a certain kind of way about them. Thought I’d done quite a good job of controlling it but evidently not. Sorry

[Menalque]

To be clear that doesn’t mean I think you’re town, just that I think that specific complaint is valid

I’m still between you and bloodhall for the probable scum

[Menalque]

Sup

[Menalque]

Sorry y’all it is first day of Madrid summer heat so it had a high of 36 today (~104 for you heathens) and brain is functionally jelly

[Menalque]

I have to bake stuff for tomorrow but I’m still not willing to leave the house so I’m here for a sec

[Menalque]

Err

Assuming that quote was an accident

[Menalque]

It is not that I don’t care about flipping bloodhail, it is that I am confused and not sure what to do and the comment on the heat here was because that is directly related to my ability to concentrate

[Menalque]

I was starting to have doubts about Relly!scum right before the rep out but still think they could very well be scum — i think that’s where I want to go because I’m not confident but that’s where I was confident earlier

I am also susceptible to high confidence and while bloodhail is wrong decently often and exaggerates (if unintentionally at times) their confidence it is enough to make me slightly worried about datisi in a way I wasn’t before

If I felt I were able to properly evaluate it then I would be but right now it’s just a lot of people talking and lots of words and my brain doing the equivalent of collapsing like an overcooked sponge cake every time I try to engage the “critical” bit

[Menalque]

I think bloodhail is probably the best flip because it’s revealing and still good odds of scum

If scum, then they played like this to try and destabilise the game, throw things up in the air, and maybe avoid the lim by coming in hard

If town, then scum were content with what was happening and the disruption was very pro-town

I might be being too stubborn but I still want to trust that my reads on datisi and skitter are correct, but bloodhail is also right that I can OMGUS and am susceptible to pockets from being hard TR

[Menalque]

Oh, I didn’t complete that thought but it was meant to say “while bloodhail is these things I also think they have overall stronger reads than me”

[Menalque]

Idk what to add

[Menalque]

Am also worried atp that if it’s skitter or ari then all they care about is that there’s some sort of t/t conflict between me, datisi, and bloodhail and that’s why they’re now both open to datisi

But ari and skitter can’t both be scum, I think, so evidently one of them at minimum is genuinely seeing something

[Menalque]

Idk at this point, I know I did earlier when I was reading his ISO in like D1 and skimmed again in D2 once I got back to town so I’m mostly trusting my prior self

[Menalque]

If I get limmed for lack of presence then so be it, but there’s a reason why I and many others choose to play on mafiascum(dot)net and that’s because the deadlines are reasonable and allow the chance to play while having other stuff going on

I’m heading off now, I might be around again right before deadline if needed, but I probably won’t be

I’m not going to be any townier than I was the other night during today, but I think I was very town there

If I am limmed because you (general you) think that it’s scummy that I’m not around, I only ask that you remember this game in future and learn from it

[Menalque]

I would probably CFD ari but I don’t think there are the votes among those around

[Menalque]

I don’t understand how you’re disentangling lack of presence from lack of caring

How am I going to demonstrate either way that I care/don’t care if I’m not here

My posts when I did briefly enter were to acknowledge presence in thread but also I could see that there were a load of new posts and I’ve already explained why I’m struggling to grapple with them

[Menalque]

Chinese Fire Drill — a quick wagon at the end of a day

[Menalque]

I don’t see how those points aren’t fully addressed by 2245 and 2247

Like if I am unsure, even if I have a preference

I am not necessarily immediately going to start going on about it before I’ve had time to think about it and as i was still trying and failing to process what the arguments were I didn’t comment on it

[Menalque]

You’re attempting to redirect the wagon back towards me for what I think are very poor reasons and if bloodhail is town then you’ve also been fencesitting and allowing a t/t conflict to play out most of the day

I don’t see why you would be doing differently as scum here when you’re not in any danger and the more slots you can keep viable going into D2/D3 the better for you