Open 97 - Lovers Mafia (Over in 3 days!) before 703

[Adel]

vote: Guardian

for lurking.

[Adel]

Guardian is still lurking

[Adel]

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

[Adel]

Ok, I'll lynch guardian on page 1

You wanna know the reason for the double wagon vote? To see how people would react. I didn't think it was scummy, though so I wasn't trying to see who would jump on me for being scummy.

Also, I haven't played with guardian, but I would think that L-2 on page 1 where both votes were random = pressure. That's just me though.

Concerning the scum pairs: I think it is pretty early to be calling them now. From the people that are active, the person I think is most likely scum is Adel (info after random vote).

Adel: What's your position on guardian-

batt

scum pair, adel-batt scum pair, or the one where I'm not scum? Instead of sitting back and watch two people have a "scum fight."

I think it is obvious that if Guardian isn't scum (though I think he is scum) then batt must be scum. I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

[Adel]

So who can you see being scum with Guardian? Sensfan?

I think it is more likely that Adel is trying to distance from batt or Guardian than divert it from someone else.

JDodge is town. This is based on meta. It will

additionally be based upon his response to this statement.

Let's see where it goes.

Doesn't stating the above italic sentence negates your ability to formulate a hypothesis towards Jdodge's guilt based on the idea that Jdodge is now aware that you are looking for a certain reaction from him?

Which side of the WIFOM curve do you think that batt is trying to stay upon?

[Adel]

I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Is that a slip?

have you ever played with me or read one of the games I've played in before?

(my guess is yes, which makes your posting seem like a transparently exploitative attempt, and really not up to the standard of play I'm expecting from this game. be a baller.)

[Adel]

Jdodge, from your perspective, did Guardian commit his scumtell yet?

[Adel]

I had a life yesterday, and missed the madness.

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

Vote =/= call for the hammer; you yourself said that page 1 votes were pretty much meaningless.

Right. But you are saying that I'm Scum for hammering only with support of 50%+ of the Town. Surely that is the case for any hammer...

You're not at all paying attention to what I am saying.

YOU YOURSELF have said, multiple times, that you waited on the hammer until you had (and I paraphrase a bit here) "at least 1 town" calling for it. Hence, you waited for

3 people

to call for the hammer.

This allows you to weasel yourself out of suspicion because

they asked for it

. Sans this confirmation, people would have basis to say "but we were just pressuring him, why the hell did you hammer on page 2", which would thus be bad for you. You saw the opportunity to hammer a townsperson with minimal suspicion being inflicted upon you, and you took it.

I would never hammer anyone without 50% of the Town supporting it.

Then again, if by some obscene stretch of the imagination you

are

town, you are henceforth urged to grow a pair.

I have been Town before, you realize? And why should anyone end the day without a majority agreeing for a lynch? Why should my opinion override that of the majority?

If you have a good reason to hammer, then hammer already; you can justify it later. You are human. You are fallible. You are likely to be wrong. That should not stop you in the least.

However, when you try to remove self-accountability, that in and of itself is suspicious.

Why should the person who happens to not be voting someone be more accountable than the 3 people who are calling for a hammer, but happen to be voting that person?

So all three people voting for Guardian called for a hammer, and you assumed that the one other person besides yourself who wasn't voting for Guardian was obviously scum with Guardian? Did it occur to you that random votes don't count as legitimate suspicion?

You're scummy for hammering someone on a case you didn't believe in on the basis of pandering to the majority.

Now see, that's complete bullshit. Do I need to point out the (now 4) times I've said I found him scummy?

More to the point, stop avoiding the question. Why am I scummy for doing something you would have done, but waiting to make sure at least 1 other Town person agrees?

I've answered your question multiple times. You only showed suspicion after the fact, AND only showed enough suspicion to hammer once

you precieved that it was safe to do so, because a majority makeup of the town tomorrow agreed with you.

.

Yeah, I only hammered after 3 other people voted for him. Real good scumtell there!

you aren't new to mafia. How often do 75% of townies randomly vote for the same person by page 2? (hint: never)

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

when posted on page 1 most certainly isn't the same as calling for a hammer. I think it is very interesting that you consider it to be the same as calling for a hammer.

How many times can we mislynch before the town loses?

Your hammer is scummy as hell. I was really hoping that due to an intentional formatting error your hammer wouldn't count (a tactic I've used more than a couple of times) but you even erred on the side of caution by unvoting before you cast the hammer.

[Adel]

Right. But doesn't the fact that I do that regardless of my alignment in general mean that it has nothing to do with my alignment in this game?

Then give examples of this behaviour in the past if you think it will clear you. I am not here to hold your hand and guide you through something that you should know by now.

I am not expecting you to hold my hand, and I don't think the condescending attitude was necessary, either. I am just saying that I don't see why I am being called scummy for not wanting to take advantage of a situation and hammer without a majority.

your hammer is scummy exactly because you took advantage of a situation.

I guess you just aren't used to this level of play. Your transparent attempt to evade being held responsible for a hammer isn't going to work. A hammer by a genuine townie on page 2 would have some significant reason behind it, other than "the random bullshit of the random voting stage left him at lynch -1".

I'm certainly not going to allow an unjustified hammer on page 2 to fly in this or in any other game I ever play.

[Adel]

So who can you see being scum with Guardian? Sensfan?

I most certainly can't see myself as being Scum with anyone, which is the point I was making.

Note that you didn't answer who you could see being scum with Guardian. How could you hammer in a game where two mislynches=lose for the town without having a good idea about who his scum mate was.

I just don't think you are ignorant enough not to see that placing someone at lynch-1 is a good way to pressure potential scum and his partner into doing something truly scummy.

[Adel]

So who can you see being scum with Guardian? Sensfan?

I most certainly can't see myself as being Scum with anyone, which is the point I was making.

Note that you didn't answer who you could see being scum with Guardian. How could you hammer in a game where two mislynches=lose for the town without having a good idea about who his scum mate was.

I just don't think you are ignorant enough not to see that placing someone at lynch-1 is a good way to pressure potential scum and his partner into doing something truly scummy.

I would think that looking for scumbuddies is far less important in a game where hitting either Scum wins the game.

Is there anything in particular you expect me to say to the several times you imply I'm not very good at this game?

Why did you hammer on page 2?

[Adel]

other question you chose not to answer:
1. So all three people voting for Guardian called for a hammer, and you assumed that the one other person besides yourself who wasn't voting for Guardian was obviously scum with Guardian?
2. Did it occur to you that random votes don't count as legitimate suspicion?
3. How many times can we mislynch before the town loses?

[Adel]

also,
4. So who can you see being scum with Guardian?

[Adel]

right before you posted

Whatever.

Unvote, Vote: guardian

I posted

Jdodge, from your perspective, did Guardian commit his scumtell yet?

and then Jdodge posted

Jdodge, from your perspective, did Guardian commit his scumtell yet?

I honestly can barely remember what that tell was. Let me try and remember and I'll get back to you.

5. Why didn't you show

any

curiousity about whether or not it applied to Guardian?
6. Why didn't you ask what it was?
7. Why didn't you ask if I thought it applied?

[Adel]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

[Adel]

What games have you completed?
Please list, with links,

all

of them.

[Adel]

What games have you completed?
Please list, with links,

all

of them.

Seeing as its a fairly long list that would take me a few minutes to link and everything, can I ask why you are asking me for this?

So I can read them and potentially build a meta case that either indites or clears you.

[Adel]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

dude, you hammered on page 2.

How many games have you read that had left the random stage

before]/b] page 3?

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

[Adel]

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

[Adel]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

dude, you hammered on page 2.

How many games have you read that had left the random stage

before]/b] page 3?

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Are you ignoring that JDodge has said, since the fact, that he would have hammered?
And pretty much

every

game I play leaves the random stage by page 3...

I am not ignoring what Jdodge has posted. I have a systematic approach towards mafia.

Which post do you interpret as LG calling for a hammer?

How many hammers have you seen before page 3?

[Adel]

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

[Adel]

Adel, if you disagree with the hammer, shouldn't you also have issues with Gurgi and JDodge, who agree with the hammer?

actions speak louder than words: you hammered.

That's bullshit. I am not sure about Gurgi, but JDodge has said several times that he would have hammered in my spot. If 3 people think Guardian should be hammered, why should I be more suspicious that the other two because I happened to not be voting him?

Why should you be more suspicious? You actually hammered, and with almost 3k game posts you aren't a newbie who can get away with that as an excuse.

[Adel]

Have you ever seen JDodge make early game posts that are full of hyperbole before?

[Adel]

Do you know what the word "hyperbole" means?

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

why did you chose to take this literally?

Yes, I am very aware of the term.

I guess maybe it was a mistake to take it seriously/literally, but I felt that you wouldn't say that sort of thing unless you meant it.

Do you habitually take page 1 hyperbole literally?

[Adel]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

division of labor time: could someone look through his post history (via his profile page) and identify any games that he left out?

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

[Adel]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

division of labor time: could someone look through his post history (via his profile page) and identify any games that he left out?

That would take a while. Would a screenshot of my Watched Topics (which contains all games I completed without being replaced) be good enough?

no, I'm more interested in the games you either chose to leave out, or accidently left off your list.

[Adel]

Have you ever seen JDodge make early game posts that are full of hyperbole before?

I don't believe I have ever seen JDodge play before.

could someone scan his games and check if JDodge was in any of them?

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

[Adel]

Have you ever seen JDodge make early game posts that are full of hyperbole before?

I don't believe I have ever seen JDodge play before.

could someone scan his games and check if JDodge was in any of them?

Can I ask why you are so quick to assume I am lying about facts that are easily verifiable?

Oh, and it looks (just by counting the WT threads and those I posted) that I might have accidentally ommited a game. I will look closer.

I think that proves my point. Which games did you accidentally leave off?

[Adel]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

what about Mini 537 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6938 where you were scum and jdodge was town? At least you left that on your list. Jdodge's posts in that game include

Vote: ryan

QUICK, LET'S SEE HOW QUICKLY WE CAN GET HIM TO POST HIS ROLE PM

on page 1

*FairyThatIsPunk is pretending to be in a glass box*

Contribute or die.

and spent every other post in the first 3 pages trolling the fuck our of ryan.

[Adel]

edit: the second jdodge post is from page 2.

[Adel]

check, I skimmed and thought your role was "suicide bomber" and it said that you won, that meant that you were scum-aligned. good job on vigging successfully.

[Adel]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

[Adel]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

Are you confident that you didn't leave any other games off of your list?

[Adel]

pseudovote: SensFan

it would be an actual vote if it wasn't 3 to lynch with 2 scum alive in lynch-or-lose.

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

[Adel]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

also, from this list, can you point out the games where you attempted gambits?

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact

several of the votes come for legitimate reasons

, like his MOS idea.

how many is "several"?
What was it about LG's vote or my vote on Guardian that made you think they were serious and legitimate?

[Adel]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

I think it is scummy how you placed emphasis on "VERY".

[Adel]

Battousai: why shouldn't we consider you lurker-scum at this point?

[Adel]

Adel: Once you're done with this line of questioning, can you give us some information? I'm pretty bad at meta-reads based on reading, and only really trust what I get from playing with them. That said, I'd like to know what you're thinking.

I'll get to the alignment related stuff later, but right now I'm pretty pissed that after starting off in one of those rare games free of newbies (together we average more than 4k game posts) a random wagon got someone I enjoy playing with lynched on page 2. It makes this game an example of everything that is wrong with mafia right now.

As far as getting a meta read, here is one approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

by following this process you should get a pretty good idea if he is following his scum meta or his town meta in this game.

If you think he is scum, then you go through this thread and write down every claim he made about his playstyle and what he has or has not experienced, and dig for evidence from his body of work. Doing this before you have an informed opinion of his alignment is usually a bad idea, because if you look for anything hard enough you will find it, and it really sucks when you work really hard just to convince yourself that an innocent townie is scum. see the wikipedia article on confirmation bias.

I honestly won't have a very solid read on his alignment for a couple of days. I looked at his games just hard enough to ask the kind of questions that encouraged him to make statements that could hopefully be proven conclusively true or false, which should go a long way towards proving his alignment. Good scum-hunting requires a lot of research and disciplined thinking combined with fast manipulation of your opponents.

[Adel]

also, look for instances of hyperbole in the first couple of pages of his games, and take special notice if his reaction to it varies with his alignment.

[Adel]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

Contextual differences in posting style (syntax, tone, ect..) is a more likely way to get a good evaluation of someone's alignment meta, but it is far harder to quantify. "Intuition" is what most often identifies these kind of player-specific tells... but it takes work and it can be difficult to filter out the inevitable false-positives.

[Adel]

Not to be rude, but I really don't have the time to be doing this for multiple hours, in addition, do you not think that his meta could have changed over a long period of play? I know mine has changed dramatically since October.

That is the point behind sorting his games into town windows and scum windows. That controls for general shifts in playstyle against time.

If you don't have time to spend several hours building player specific metas, I don't think you have a chance of meeting your potential as a forum mafia player. This is a formatt that rewards hard work and diligence.

[Adel]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

your time would be far better served trying to scumhunt if you are actually town, or OMGUS'g me if you are scum.

[Adel]

1. lies, and lying habits that vary with alignment.
2. deconstruction (with an emphasis on semantics and syntax) of post styles to identify alignment-related habits and patterns in previous games.

For example, if you had declared (as town) that you never random vote, and you never have random voted as town, it would pretty damning if you've random voted in 3 or 4 games as scum since you random voted in this game. It wouldn't be lynch-worth evidence in isolation, but you did hammer without good reason on page 2 in this six player game.

[Adel]

my wiki contains all of my completed games in rough chronological order by completion date to make such work easier for other players.

This is the only game I am currently playing.

[Adel]

[quote="Battousai"]Adel: Do you plan on focusing on Sens, or will you be as "aggressive" with other players? Do you think me and sen are a scumpair? Did you think Guardian was scum near the lynch?/quote]

1. I will be aggressive with other players.
2. No telling at this point. As an exercise in intellectual honesty, please point out what evidence might lead a rational observer to think that you could be scum with SensFan.
3. No, I didn't have any reason to think he was scum. I was happy with pressure being applied to him because it would help illuminate his alignment.

[Adel]

I think it is obvious that if Guardian isn't scum

(though I think he is scum)

then batt must be scum. I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Just so everyone knows who I think is scum: Adel/LG

there you go, you caught me. Obviously, overstating my faith in his alignment during a page-2 random wagon is Q.E.D. proof that I lied, and Lynch-All-Liars requires you to lynch me.

[Adel]

3.You didn't think he was scum?

I think it is obvious that if Guardian isn't scum

(though I think he is scum)

then batt must be scum. I can't see Adel being scum with anyone else.

Just so everyone knows who I think is scum: Adel/LG

also, why did you clip my answer?

3. No, I didn't have any reason to think he was scum. I was happy with pressure being applied to him because it would help illuminate his alignment

so you paraphrased my reply to make it seem like I was lying, on the very same page I posted it on? What kind of half-assed mafia players are you used to playing with? Do you normally get away with that kind of crap.

Why haven't you complied with LG's request that you post links to all of your games?

~~~
JDodge: has this level of play become standard? I took a couple of months off before this game because outside of the minivitational it seemed like the nominal skill level was approaching functional retardation. Shouldn't I have bothered coming back?

[Adel]

JDodge: has this level of play become standard? I took a couple of months off before this game because outside of the minivitational it seemed like the nominal skill level was approaching functional retardation. Shouldn't I have bothered coming back?

Sorry to invade on your elitist party, but can I ask that you at least respect the skill that Gurgi, Batt, and I have. I'm sorry that we're apparently not as good as the people you're used to playing with, but I would like to think we're all competent players.

Then why in the fuck did you hammer on page 2?

[Adel]

vote: SensFan

I'm done with this.

[Adel]

For example, if you had declared (as town) that you never random vote, and you never have random voted as town, it would pretty damning if you've random voted in 3 or 4 games as scum since you random voted in this game. It wouldn't be lynch-worth evidence in isolation, but you did hammer without good reason on page 2 in this six player game.

He did declare, as town, that he never random votes.

[Adel]

Yes, Jodge is almost always full of hyperbole on day 1, pushing for an early lynch. Battlemage does dumb shit like fake-claiming cop with a guilty on a player (who happened to be a cop)... Relative experience or inexperience has nothing to do with it -- I figure that all players with 1000 or more game posts are probably going to be about on the same level.

What I don't like is players not taking the game seriously, and posting idiotic crap like "Whatever, vote:Guardian" on page two to lynch.

So either SensFan is an idiot who doesn't take the game seriously, or he is a decent player who is used to taking advantage of an environment where the level of play is crap. Looking through his other games, he isn't an idiot, so I conclude that I have enough confidence that he is scum.

I'm not willing to place several more hours into this game. Either SensFan is scum or I have no business playing mafia anymore.

[Adel]

A page two hammer happened. You were on that wagon. You were pushing for the lynch, serious or not. And now you have a problem with it? I have always said that if you aren't ready for a wagon to go to lynch, get the freak off it. Why are are you not subject to this?

Fixed. A bit angry, and a bit rushed.

for pressure, and to observe how Guardian responded to a bullshit random wagon, and (more importantly) to see how other players responded to there being a bullshit random wagon. SensFan thought he could go along with the bullshit random wagon.

SensFan: would you be willing to move your vote to JDodge if I offered to follow your vote to JDodge?

[Adel]

vote: SensFan

I'm done with this.

Vote: Adel

Maybe you are being too elitist or thick to notice it, but JDodge, your fellow awesome, way-better-than-the-rest-of-us-complete-newbs, scumpartner HAS OPENLY SAID HE WOULD HAMMER ON PAGE TWO IF HE COULD HAVE.

Which he is using, as your scumpartner, to deflect attention away from you, and to undermine your wagon.

[Adel]

Hey Adel. Mini 643, Time Capsule Mafia. My most recently-completed game as Town.

I RANDOM-VOTED!

Do I need to dig up more examples?

Yes, you totally do. I didn't bother to check that one, since it was the last one, and I was out of patience... besides my case against you really depends upon:
1. you hammering on page 2
2. you not being a total idiot

[Adel]

Mini 604, ooba Mafia. I "random"-voted. I was Town.

Note that I never actually vote randomly, I vote arbitrarily; which is exactly the misrep Adel is trying to use on me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8464 link to that game.

[Adel]

I opened a ton of pages, scanned them, and then later I got pissy and dropped an under-developed argument prematurely.

[Adel]

Mini 604, ooba Mafia. I "random"-voted. I was Town.

Note that I never actually vote randomly, I vote arbitrarily; which is exactly the misrep Adel is trying to use on me.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8464 link to that game.

...That is semantics, and bad semantics, at that.

read in isolation, it stuck.

[Adel]

As far as getting a meta read, here is

one

approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

I've taken a two month break, and I never use a methodology consistently.

[Adel]

Because the methods I actually use are always changing, and I tend to be a bit disorganized about it... but there are a lot of tools in my tool box, so I simply shared one way of building a player-specific meta that would work.

[Adel]

As far as getting a meta read, here is

one

approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

I've taken a two month break, and I never use a methodology consistently.

MOVE OUT OF THE WAY GUYS, IT KEEPS ON BACKING UP.

nice rhetorical device. Perhaps if you use it another three or four times I'll start thinking it is clever.

-----------
Vote Count:
SensFan-1 (Adel)
Adel-1 (SensFan)

With 5 alive, it is 3 to lynch

[Adel]

Just so that it isn't lost by the page break -- both SensFan and I are at one vote. With two living scum players, one additional vote by a townie on a townie yields a scum victory.

Notice that when I voted for SensFan he simply placed a vote on me in exchange.

Wouldn't a genuine townie consider that perhaps I was suffering from townie-tunnel vision and do something to encourage me to unvote, rather than just antagonizing me?

[Adel]

Wouldn't a genuine townie consider that perhaps I was suffering from townie-tunnel vision and do something to encourage me to unvote, rather than just antagonizing me?

I've kind of refuted everything you've brought up...

Besides, if we're both Town, I haven't hurt anything by voting you.

There are two living scum players. They could quick-lynch.

Everything? Who were the three players who were seriously and literally pushing for a page-2 hammer that you referred to time and time again? Where is the logical thought process that explains why you hammered on page 2 based off of a random bullshit wagon?

For example, if you had declared (as town) that you never random vote, and you never have random voted as town, it would pretty damning if you've random voted in 3 or 4 games as scum since you random voted in this game. It wouldn't be lynch-worth evidence in isolation, but you did hammer without good reason on page 2 in this six player game.

He did declare, as town, that he never random votes.

Yay for out of context random thoughts!

Note that this was his first response.

[Adel]

Just so that it isn't lost by the page break -- both SensFan and I are at one vote. With two living scum players, one additional vote by a townie on a townie yields a scum victory.

Notice that when I voted for SensFan he simply placed a vote on me in exchange.

Wouldn't a genuine townie consider that perhaps I was suffering from townie-tunnel vision and do something to encourage me to unvote, rather than just antagonizing me?

This requires the townie in question to believe that you are in fact, a townie.

Read my posts.

[Adel]

I'm going offline now, and I'm leaving my vote on SensFan. Both mafia players can feel free to quicklych him if I'm wrong about him being scum.

I want this game to be over so that Guardian and I can either spread the word about how much of an idiot SensFan is for hammering on page 2 as scum, or how much of an utter (ought to be banned from breeding) tool he is for hammering on page 2 as town.

[Adel]

A page two hammer happened. You were on that wagon. You were pushing for the lynch, serious or not. And now you have a problem with it? I have always said that if you aren't ready for a wagon to go to lynch, get the freak off it. Why are are you not subject to this?

Fixed. A bit angry, and a bit rushed.

I covered this.

You don't fucking hammer on page 2 for a random bullshit wagon. It is like claiming "cop" in an open game where there is no cop. It is horrible play regardless of your alignment, and if you do it you really really need to lose. I refuse to play this game if that kind of gambit is ever allowed to be successful.

[Adel]

/out

[Adel]

You don't fucking hammer on page 2 for a random bullshit wagon.

You don't stay on a wagon you think is "random bullshit" if no one else does.

you let someone dangle at -1 if you think your game is free of outright idiots, especially when the person who placed him at -1 gave an explicit warning.

[Adel]

ok, I seriously have to go now- gg.

[Adel]

batt, I totally respect your play now. please carefully read this thread and take your time. Feel free to ask anything you like. This game is in your hands now.

[Adel]

congrats on your vote Batt, you won!

[Adel]

I totally want to read LG and SensFan's daytalking thread. Please post a link to it guys.

BTW, SensFan, I recognize that I was being a bit of a jerk towards you, and I apologize if you took offense, but I did feel a little aggravated that you hammered so early on page 2. I was really looking forward to playing a close game, and it seemed to me that you were just throwing away your chances of winning.
Why did you think you could get away with it?

[Adel]

With all this horrible logic flying around, the blatant backtracking, and the massive amounts of ad hominem that are spewing from JDodge and Adel, this decision has been made easy for me. If you two are allowed to win for simply badmouthing, then I too, give up hope for this game. I am appalled at the play of the so-called "pros". This is sub-par by any standards. This, in addition to their general play, self-absolution, and false arguments, it is clear to me.

Vote: Adel

.

I still stand by this post. The level of insult while the game was going on was just unacceptable.

A large part of mafia is psychological. The level of insults in this game was pretty modest.

I would've played in a much tighter, well-researched, and civil style had it not been for the page 2 hammer. The outright stupidity of that dazzled me, and I had trouble staying serious about this game after that. It only took me a little while to figure out if SensFan had a high enough opinion of his own ability as scum to get away with audacious shit like that, or if he was an idiot, to make up my mind. After I saw the game where he faked a really silly vote restriction as scum, I knew his ego was definitely big enough to attempt to get away with a page 2 hammer as scum.

[Adel]

I feel disappointed. It took me a long, long time to acquire all the games I've been in and sort them, only to have no one look at them...

It will save you time in the future-- you only have to do it once if you do it on your wiki page, then you can just tell people to go to your wiki page.


LG- my working definition of a Newbie is someone with less than 500 game posts... and nobody in this game is close to being a newbie.

You can't take insults personally -- we are playing a game, and we talk "in character". The insults I wrote were far from sincere -- they were written to access JDodge's alignment and to push SensFan around a bit.

[Adel]

Thanks for modding. I hope it wasn't too much of a time commitment for you (/joke)

[Adel]

wow, that's really dumb.

I remember why I quit mafia.

Batt is definitely town. 100%. This is a confirmed townie speaking: Batt is definitely town.

lynch Adel. Adel calling for my lynch was bullshit and antithetical to her information gathering Modus Operandi.

Summary:
Batt 100% town
Adel 95% scum

thanks for the game..

95% scum, really?
I wanted to pressure your scumbuddy by leaving you at lynch -1. I did a quick check before the game stated to make sure that there wasn't a potential village idiot in the game, so I figured that letting you dangle there wasn't a bad idea.

SensFan: why did you think that hammering Guardian was a good idea?

[Adel]

I still think your whole case against me was shit, and I don't understand why I was voted by Batt.

do you mind if I sig this?

[Adel]

I'm curious to hear everyone's thought on this set up. What worked? What didn't work? Any changes or problems? I'm shocked how quick this game went and yes andersonw this counts as a modded game.
Thanks!

I don't think there is anything wrong with the setup. Try running it again.

[Adel]

I think the setup should be run again as is. Like the first run of Mountainous Multiball I don't think this qualifies as a good test run.

[Adel]

It's rather unforgiving to the scum, one mistake is game over, but the town can screw up once without penalty.

That compensates for the natural advantage the scum gain from nightlessness,

especially

when they can coordinate unlimitedly during the day.

What if you add a Townie, remove nightless, and remove daytalk?

What don't you like about this setup?

~~~

For a bit of perspective, consider:
Polygamist Mafia
4 sets of town lovers
2 sets of mafia lovers (all die together)
No day talking.
Nightless

I was in the first two runs of polygamist mafia as town, and won both. I replaced into the third run, again as a townie, and stopped the wagon that was on the player I replaced, and then I replaced out. I am confident that the town would've won that one as well had I not replaced out.

In neither run of Polygamist did scum try a very early game quickhammer gambit.

In the third run, in the Qt thread for the pre-game scum chat, Llama Fluff posted:
"Examples of this setup are open 83 (right now D2) and open 76 (town won). I would advise skimming both of these setups and praying Adel doesnt replace into this game."
source: http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/ckxcypqFuncW4

compare with:

Lovers Mafia
4 townie
2 scum (die together)
with daytalking.
nightless

One of the scum placed a page 2 quickhammer.

I am convinced that both setups are easy for coordinated and patient scum to win. A scum team that establishes a plan to vote each other to lynch -1 (after the random voting stage) will consistently win in games where the town attempts to use voting analysis to find scum.

[Adel]

This game basically *is* polygamist mafia, but with town disadvantaged since there is no one they can trust, but advantaged since there is less players to sort through.

In the past, the same players were allowed to replay Texas Justice because of a short game -- I would be interested in trying that here, possibly. I am placing a two-game max on myself though, so if I am in two by then, no dice.

please reserve a spot for my Deep South game... I expect it will be in sign-ups as soon as Tally checks in.

I'm on a one-game restriction right now... and I just replaced into a newbie game. Play one game, and play it right.

[Adel]

I'm sticking to one game at a time, sorry guys.