Open 854 | Eurybia's Curse | Game Over!

[Isis]

I feel so much town anguish in this game and Ari still thinks I'm scum or maybe scum, it feels unfair; if I was scum I would have a equal or higher anguish but it would be a

different kind

aaa

[Isis]

Gamma bus for me please

[Isis]

I think if there's town in skitter gamma it's always gamma

[Aristeia]

i try to visualize winnable game states and play for those because some game states are unwinnable

I am suffer

Aristeia why do you want to hurt me

I am a terrible player I don't know why you expect me to be good at this game.

[Aristeia]

like do you think skitter is bussing Pavo?

if Pavo is town

and Gamma is town

then i dunno how we win because niether of them are really playing

just throw the towel in and concede

[Isis]

Tbh really the entire game has like morphified to where there's this game state read that gamma is town but it's actually the same game state read as "gamma seems unsaveable and this game has an escape mechanic" and then gamma is like trying to actually claim scum in the thread and we s don't vote her

[Isis]

Aristeia am I good at Mafia

[Aristeia]

you are very good at mafia

if you were bad at mafia I'd know how to read you

[Isis]

like do you think skitter is bussing Pavo?

if Pavo is town

and Gamma is town

then i dunno how we win because niether of them are really playing

just throw the towel in and concede

I am sleeppp

[Isis]

Idk how that quoted

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma bus for me please

fuck no

[Gamma Emerald]

Specifically, I don’t trust you, so why should I listen to you?

[skitter30]

At the time, Gamma had 5 votes, and skitter was sort of conflicted on her while also not townreading her, as seen in 928, and was willing to vote there. Whatever skitter's read is, though, it seems she should understand the basis for the Gamma suspicion even if she doesn't quite feel it in her heart. So I don't think Gamma would be what she's referring to as a weird scumread.

Beat and Pavowski weren't main wagons at the time, but I'm not sure they qualify as weird scumreads? I think at that point both felt like they were struggling to fit into the crowd in a way that could be scummy.

I was referring more to the beat/pav reads than the gamma one.
Or at least to the fact that she was scumreading all 3 (and even proposing all 3 were a team) and i couldnt wrap my head around it, i was p sure that wasnt the team (and i was right, beat wasnt scum). Its too easy, and those people may not have been acting *townie* but that doesnt make them scum either

(Kinda like rn i have a hard time believing all of gamma/marci/pav are scum, which i also discussed recently)

I'm still not sure where her teamreads were coming from

Ari was saying gamma, pav, and didnt include beat, and that felt less 'off' to me than the version with beat, so that's why i dont think i called that out specifically

she does go on to question Ari, not liking her vote on Gamma, and votes her, mostly citing Ari's attempts to gain thread control. She does have an interesting interaction with Ari later, at around 1204, where she objects to the idea that she is derailing the Gamma wagon. I think a lot of the points Ari makes in this exchange are pretty good.

Not sure what the point is here or why this bit is scum-indicative
I thought the way ari was interacting with the gamma wagon was prototypical of her scumgame if gamma was town
She even agreed with me that she was 'vibing and getting thread influence via vibing', which is how she would approach this as scum, ajd she thinks that the way i was worried abt this is town-indicative for me

Then, skitter does similar to GL. After being absent for a bit, GL catches up, and makes a few posts talking about his rising scumreads on Gamma and marci, in posts like 1942, 1945, 1946. skitter then posts 1948, discrediting his marci push in a way that I think is quite scummy, actually, calling it "bandwagon-y" despite GL providing quite a few reasons. After GL re-summarizes them in 1981, skitter just thanks him and moves on. The thing that I find especially strange about this whole interaction is that skitter's immediate reaction to the Beat flip was that she scumread most of the names on the wagon. But when GL starts focusing on the names on the wagon, skitter seems to be questioning why he would do that at all. It doesn't track.

I thought it was bandwagon-y: marci became a popular wagon and gl decided to join it, and i didnt understand where the scumread came from, or even why he was scumreading her

He reiterated his reasons and i undersood it better and he did have some merit (esp since marci started acting scummier imo around then) so i dropped it

And i wasnf questioning 'why he would look for scum onwagon', i was questioning why he settled for marci

All three of these instances feel to me like punishing players or dismantling their credibility for voicing suspicions on Gamma, specifically, whether directly or indirectly. But throughout this time, skitter maintains close to a nullread on Gamma herself. Sometimes she can see the arguments, or maybe even would be willing to vote, but it's not ever a primary suspicion, and it's not ever a full townread. I would expect this kind of defense to come from someone who is townreading Gamma, but she isn't exactly.

None of these really feel to me like skitter is hunting scum, either. Her primary focus is on people's reads, and why they shouldn't be having them. She does suspect Titus, but seems to drop it later. She votes Ari, but that suspicion has mostly faded as well. I think she's still scumreading GL, but then she votes his preferred elim. It feels like her suspicions come and go based on what is convenient to her positioning, and not based on genuine reasons to townread or scumread people.

I mean, i'm not sure why you're reading this as 'punishing players and dismantling credibility' vs 'discussing reads, particularly ones i disagree with'. The former is scum-indicative, but i dont think the latter is, and i'm not sire why you're ascribing the former motivations to me when that's not what i'm doing and not really how i play
I do object to reads i disagree with
I'm not 'punishing' anybody

And yeah my gamma read was never a strong townread (and i never described it as such), but the reasons for scumreading him were poor, and i didnt understand why we were settling there (esp. In the ari case) so i wanted to discuss and undedstand how/why people were pushing him
- titus's read i never understood, and the teamread looked wronf
- ari's approach looked particularly scum-indicative for her
- gl read had nothing to do with gamma

I also object to the notion that i'm 'not hunting scum, and that my primary focus is on people's reads and why they shouldnt be having them'
- i have like 8 billion scumreads, and townread very few people
- i cant work through all of them at once, but i have been sharing my suspicions as i have them
- this makes me wary of several of the popular wagons, because i'm p sure that not all of the people who are widely scumread as scum, and idk how to pick the right wagon rn
- trying to understand people's reads: well i need to sort them too, ajd this is mafia, idk what else to talk about and how to do that? Not sure what else i should be focusing on
- and yeah if i think reads are wrong i'll say that. What should i be doing instead?

specifically, I'm not even sure if this makes sense for skitter to be partners with Gamma. One of them will have to flip first, and this kind of consistent chainsawing would be very incriminating. So I'm kind of at a loss. It's something that I see that to me doesn't look like it fits with a consistent town mindset, and something that normally would have scum motivation, but... I'm not really sure that it's right, due to the way the setup works. I'm worried a little bit that I'm just seeing the game from the completely wrong angle, but maybe if I am then posting my thought process will allow someone to help reorient me.

I mean, yeah

[skitter30]

I didn't read 2242, I did read 2244

Then read 2242

[skitter30]

Coral, what if it's Skitter Pav?

Ok and i'm sitting on pav rn because

[skitter30]

I think if there's town in skitter gamma it's always gamma

Nope

[skitter30]

like do you think skitter is bussing Pavo?

if Pavo is town

and Gamma is town

then i dunno how we win because niether of them are really playing

just throw the towel in and concede

Fwiw i dont think this world is impossible and yeah we just lose here since at least one of the flips is prob inevitable

Even if one.is scum it's very hard to like distinguish town in beat/marci/gamma/pav and i think a lot of the wagons are gonna stem from there because they're all very wagonable

Since that's unlikely to contain the whole team i think there's a decent chsnce we lose cuz of it

[Gamma Emerald]

I think if there's town in skitter gamma it's always gamma

Nope

???
This response feels very out of left field

[skitter30]

I mean from my pov that's just wrong

[Gamma Emerald]

If those flips all seem inevitable it feels more like a failing on your parts than any of ours

[skitter30]

Idk what you mean by that

[Gamma Emerald]

It seems like me/beat/pav/Marci are all being suspected for not really doing much to solve, but there’s a critical thinking error in that people aren’t processing “hey maybe that’s just not actually scum indicative in the slightest here”. If they can’t recognize that pattern at this point they are playing poorly, and anyone that does see it and does not aim to convince those that don’t of it is also playing poorly.

[skitter30]

I've been saying that repeatedly, and trying to convince people of that for a while, and apparently i'm 'not hunting scum, and that my primary focus is on people's reads and why they shouldnt be having them'

I dont think rhe onus should be on me if you guys aren't being townie-enuf to not be wagoned, and its also kinda silly that i'd be getting blamed/scumread for trying to stop it and also not stopping it enough

[Gamma Emerald]

I just think it’s fucking stupid that whoever is town in this shithole of a game apart from me/Marci/beat/pav+you, Titus, and GL have basically opted to take a shortcut to solving the game vs. actually solving
Here’s a fun question for anyone pushing any combination of me/Marci/pav: what the fuck do you think TUF is doing here?

[Meuh]

He’s probably chilling in wolf chat