Open 99: Mayo Clinic (Game Over!) before 703

[Nameless]

Vote: Charter

, for wishful thinking.

[Nameless]

I don't think it would be a good idea for anyone to claim this early. The problem isn't so much outing power roles per se, but even if you managed to effectively confirm the vigs it's going to be pretty obvious where most of the docs protection will be aiming. If the mafia/SK know this, they have a MUCH higher chance of their kills going through and even the vigs are now going to be targeting unprotected players. There's a massive amount WIFOM here, but I can't help but think claiming now is just going to end in more NKs and less discussed lynching.

Reasoned scumhunting > statistics, IMHO.

[Nameless]

GnKoichi, the most important part of determining who is scum is

not

analysing night results but analysing posting and voting.

Sorry Plum. The Lynch thing for you was a poor joke.

I don't like this, though. If GK tries to take back anything else as a joke, it may warrant further attention. (Alternatively, GK, make it clear when you are joking [joke]OR I WILL SHOVE LIVE, HORNY RODENTS UP YOUR NOSE[/joke].)

Stef, you seem to be jumping awfully hard on a newbie player. Easy target, hmm?

Plum, your post (above this one) makes me a bit nervous, you seem to like to put in in our face that you are all for scumhunting/doing the best for town and it comes off a bit fake. "basic strong scumhunting" sounds wrong to me..it's just a gut feeling now, but tiniFoS.

IMHO, this interpretation of Plum's post seems rather a stretch. Given that and that it IS just interpretation (and thus there's not reason for Plum to respond) you have to wonder why Puta Puta would bother mentioning it except to add empty suspicion on someone.

[Nameless]

It's called SCUMhunting.

Process of elimination works too, ya know.

What do you think of GnK?

He's an idiot who should have signed up for a newbie game, but he does sound like he's honestly trying so I'm thinking he's probably town.

Doctors are not compulsive this game, so tell all Doctors not to protect at all on Night 1.

Townie doctors are MORE likely to block a townie kill, even if they targeted randomly. If someone has a failed kill, we might have a direct lead on a townie doctor who didn't support the idea of wasting a protown power role, assuming the failed killer isn't killed themselves, or that two killers didn't hit the same target, or that scum/SK don't jump in to make the argument when a kill is blocked knowing that if the townie is lynched they can fall back on the obvious answer that a townie doctor must have protected anyway.
Ignoring protown power roles is BAD, we actually ARE able to seriously scumhunt D1 and increase the odds of night success, and if you don't want the crazy WIFOM from claiming targets the solution is to not claim targets, not target at all, WTF.

unvote; Vote: Kiro

Paging TonyMontana, please report to the thread. Coffee break is over. We have a curious situation in the ER that requires your input.

Ditto to a lesser extent for orangepenguin and Puta Puta

[Nameless]

Please note charter trying to say he wasn't misleading, yet he still hasn't given a reason not to expect deaths tonight.

Please note that we have seven doctors, who will be trying to protect who they think(/know) is on their side and likely to be targeted. There's obviously a good chance of few kills, although, personally with the epic WIFOM that's going to come with night actions there's as much chance as all of the kills going through as none.

[Nameless]

This isn't really something you can have personal feelings about Charter.

And yet, the actual people making those choices and the probable WIFOM involved in them clearly is.

Moving on from GK's nonargument and pointless NK speculation, a GnKoichi <-> Wall-E connection appears notable enough that I wonder if one is scum buddying up to the other.

[Nameless]

That's not exactly an encouraging response there, Wall-E.

You've done something scummy.

Nice scumhunting!

@ Tony: [sarcasm]That's ... nice? I guess it's a pretty accurate representation too. And very useful towards our scumhunting! [/sarcasm]

FOS: Wall-E, Tony

[Nameless]

I can encourage good behavior without agreeing with the specific action.

So you're not actually going to respond to my accusation then?

[Nameless]

Vote: charter

pwned by the newbie lol

The newbie has only just said that at first glance Kmd and Charter appear connected, and the only arguments he's made against Charter earlier is that Charter's NK speculation is wrong (pointless, and opinion) and that Charter pushed a bandwagon all the way to 3 out of 7 required votes (... not exactly noteworthy).

Explain that vote and following statement.

[Nameless]

The vote is because I think charter's scum.

GnKoichi has yet again pwned charter in post 148.

unvote; vote: Wall-E

Also watching suspiciously: Tony and orange need to start contributing ANYTHING towards scumhunting in the next RL day or two or I'll swap my vote to one of them. I'm willing to give Kiro the benefit of the doubt from now if he doesn't bring anything else awful up. GnKoichi's inability to let drop an obviously bad argument is moving from "newbie" to "scummy".

IF ANYONE tomorrow says "I picked so and so because my dice told me to", I will consider you scum.

No. Justify this, and why a doctor shouldn't (say) randomly choosing who to protect from those they believe are town. And while you're at it, explain why you felt the need to claim D1:

... I will be protecting who I think is town ...

[Nameless]

@ GK, the way you keep going about Charter's NK speculation.

I don't understand what you're inferring. Can you elaborate?

The first quote is you not explaining the vote (and doing it to "aggrivate charter" is not an excuse because a) if it was any scum could pull that out of their arse to get away with anything and b) GK had not made any case worth pressuring for) while the second quote is you being an idiot in regards to the newbie being sarcastic regarding a point that's been moot for some time now.

You'll have to give me some time [to reveal my case], I'm eating dinner.

case to be posted before tomorrow night

Long dinner? *Eyebrow raise*

[Nameless]

So why am I the one who can't let it go?

Recent comments like these:

even when there was no defense for [Charter's] position.

[Charter] said [NK speculation] twice and was unable to come up with any reason for it, yet he hasn't changed his mind even after seeing the reasons against it. Holding on to irrational behavior seems odd to me.

[Nameless]

Do people really thinking posting a sentence fragment is going to help?

Yes, because it answered the question. Meanwhile, you could have answered those earlier questions without indirectly sniping at Charter. It indicates you still apparently believe Charter was in the wrong in regards to that specific issue, which he kind of wasn't (and Charter

has

adequately justified his position regarding that issue). This demonstrates that you're either verbose and stubborn, or, scum who keeps bringing up a false point - of which I'm starting to lean towards the later.

'kay?

[Nameless]

The question I was answering was "Why would I connect KMD & Charter, and how does that make either of them seem scummy?"

First of all, no, the question was (direct quote from Kmd #137) "GnK, what connects me to charter?" Second of all, you could have answered that without giving your reasons for thinking Charter is scummy like so:

Just your willingness to join the attack against me and to defend charter, and you took things I said purposefully out of context to make me look worse.

Also, give me the quote where Charter explains his position in a way that I haven't countered. He said that the kills and protects are likely to be focused and thus cancel out, except I gave a post a while ago explaining how some people will avoid the focus to make their kills go where they aren't expected, and some will try to protect off focus for this very reason.

Both of these theories are opinion, subject to WIFOM, and right now impossible to determine the accuracy of. But, you keep implying Charter's theory is WRONG. You can't know this, it wouldn't be scummy if you could, and it doesn't matter right now anyway. Really!

You seem convinced that I'm scum, or you want everyone to believe that to pull focus away from Charter

I've moved from "probably town" to "neutral", actually, and that would be in the

same post

as I raised two (IMHO) greater accusations against Charter.

Except once you lynch me and everyone sees I'm town, you and Charter are the next ones gone, because that will only prove that I'm right.

Protip: Planning lynches is generally a bad idea for the town, and being confirmed town does not prove (or mean) that you are right.

@Nameless, are you saying dice will be adequate justification for your actions tomorrow?

It would be one way to eliminate WIFOM if you weren't certain of anybody's alignment. I'm not advocating it, but I wouldn't consider it overly suspect (particular not, as you haven't explained why you think, to a DIFFERENT player).

I don't see the harm in claiming doctor. Everyone can claim that, doesn't mean a thing.

Did you, or did you not, claim doctor?

[Nameless]

EBWOP:

Add to things GK has done that is scummy: Setting up lynches, and a post humus 'I told ya so'.

In my experience, those things are fairly common newbie mistakes.

[Nameless]

Wall-E, are you going to give any specific evidence for that accusation or just hope that nobody looks too closely at it?

[Nameless]

I really hope you plan on answering my question too, Charter. And explaining why you'll consider GK scum if somebody ELSE claims they randomly protected.

[Nameless]

Hey Kids! It's time for ... [SARCASM, yeah!]

GnK, my opinion is that town shouldn't put too much attention into defending. It's the job of the town too catch scum. If that means that you have to die ...

This is a

fantastic

point of view that will really

help

the town determine who is scum to lynch!

I like my vote so far.

Thank you, Stef, for that

impressive

contribution!

Is charter actually a doc? Only time will tell.

Charter sure is being

honest and certain

about his claim and inspiring a lot of

confidence

in everything he says.

Wall-E, there is not something scummy in every single one of my posts. The fact that you've found that, shows me that you're actually just trying to get me lynched for any reason you can invent.

That is an

EXCELLENT

defence against Wall-E's attack!

[/Sarcasm] I actually feel much better now! Incidentally, I'm waiting for the rest of Wall-E's case before attempting to judge whether he's BSing or not. Charter's stance re: dice I'm still disagree with, but I suppose it's possible to interpret the scummy comment directed at the person to claim dice (but given you were otherwise directing that post towards GK you, Charter, might want to word it a bit clearer next time). And I second Kiro's comment re: Stef.

[Nameless]

In this post, Nameless tries something different: NOT being sarcastic.

If you want I can point you to games where I've lied as town. Hey, I even won some of them for town too.

No. Playing poorly in the past is

not

an excuse for dubious actions now. Your answer sucks, especially when you could have said something like "I meant it hypothetically" or "No, it wasn't an actual claim" but instead chose to BS about often lying. Charter, you suck.

@Plum: Except I know I'm town, and the rest of my case points strongly at charter and Nameless as scum, imo.

This rebuttal equally sucks. It's hypocrisy (saying something is scummy but doing it yourself) and "I know I'm town" doesn't convince anyone or explain anything.

If Tony or Orange don't seriously contribute in the next 24 hours, I propose we mob them.

[Nameless]

Please note, each following paragraph is a direct response to each of Wall-E's paragraphs within his case. Okay, finger flexing complete, LET'S RUMBLE.

[Countercase]

Why no, it was actually more a jokevote from my last game. (Kmd and Charter were masons, I was town and lost the game in LyLo) What's your point?

Ah, so this is what you meant when you mentioned your "biased possible language". It makes you look pretty retarded, TBH. Some basic setup discussion does help the town (and provides a way to start serious discussion), and my post was reasoning out why vigs claiming would probably be a bad thing. (Thus preventing any unsure townies from making a poor choice and lowering the town's chance of success!) Have I justified the validity of that post enough yet?

That's just interpretation, and for all I know you two could be scum who don't believe that and are now teaming up on me! So, we'll leave that for others to form their own opinion, shall we?

BZZT. I didn't accuse Kiro of lurking, but voted due to Kiro's scummy idea that doc's don't protect N1. Several other people also pointed out how bad this idea was, including ... you! (#109) And BZZT, Charter didn't even vote Kiro. Lying doesn't help your case.

Is that question directed at me, or Charter? I can't speak for Charter. (And it's a bad argument anyway, because it could more likely be explained by guessing based on the gist of the case you'd given.)

Did you just admit that you're vote in #142 was baseless? Yes? That's scummy, and I attacked it. Aduh.

I'm not sure what post you're actually referring to here. Your lack of specific quotes and examples is probably indicative of the fact there aren't any and you're BSing.

Again, no examples, no reasoning, no case. The only time I've come close to defending Charter is when I disagreed with his NK speculation but pointed out that his opinion was no more or less valid than anyone else's (this was to GK), whereas I have made several attacks on Charter in EXAMPLES, OMG: #156, #204.

A quote would have really helped here. I can't defend myself if you don't give anything specific to defend myself against.

Okay now it's just getting annoying. What post are you talking about with your "roundabout explanation" comment?

Yes, that was an example of what GK could have posted to answer the question presented to him while still retaining all the same relevant points - posted in response to GK asking how he could have done so without the sniping at Charter re: the NK speculation. I didn't say I agreed with him (either of them). What's your point?

... What? Just, what?

That's nice.

[/Countercase]

[Nameless]

ps sorry town for the small mistake

That's nice, but you still LIED in that case and you haven't attempted to clear up what you were specifically referring to in various instances throughout. Yeah, my vote is not moving any time soon.

OR IS IT?

Tony and Orange's contributions are still

extremely

minimal. And Charter's latest antics are laughable at best and awesomely scummy at worst.

I'm totally calling it now guys! Wall-E is the mafia doc, Tony and Orange are mafia goons, and Charter is the SK.

[Nameless]

Nameless finds a roundabout explanation of a very complex emotion the newb was having (by pulling several teeth) and simplifies it to what he/she consciously knew was the truth, the proverbial purloined letter, the too-obvious clue left in plain sight to convince those who read it of some inherent ridiculousness of notion it was:

My point is in the first quote in this post. You acting like I didn't state the point originally is noted.

Okay now it's just getting annoying. What post are you talking about with your "roundabout explanation" comment?

Seriously. You need to clarify (/justify) about half your case before I am

able

to respond sensibly to it.

[Nameless]

I noted it and you made the same mistake again, while there's a VC above your post. Are you forgetting him on purpose?

... I forgot Puta Puta didn't I? That's going to look great for me. >_< (Answer: No.)

Well anyway, I'd say Tony and Orange were still slightly worse because they have posted SOMETHING (so we know they are here) but still haven't contributed much.

Did you forget to add the [sarcasm][/sarcasm]?

Hell no. I'm obviously far from sure, but that's my first serious guess.

[Nameless]

Let's not encourage people to skip over important evidence and get away generalisations for their reasoning.

[Nameless]

That's a good strategy - "lets have both the goons lurk continuously and have the mafia doc look super scummy".

Wall-E is WIFOMing it up! Okay, I've really got no way of knowing which would be the doctor of those three suspicious players, but if I'm going to call it I might as well do it properly! (Really, I could see Wall-E as the SK and Charter, Tony, Orange as the mafia too. Wall-E and Charter's interaction seem kind of scummy from both sides, but still genuine conflict. If I'm wrong and one of them is town, then Kiro would be next guess SK - forget risk/reward balancing, many NKs will always benefit an NK immune SK.)

If you are going to vote one of us, do it, otherwise, stop mentioning it incessantly.

As tempting as it is, nobody else seems quite as enthused about it as I am (my one vote isn't really going to force contributions from anyone) and Wall-E's actions of late are worse than lurking. But I'll try anyway!

QUESTION TIME!
@ Kmd: You're making quite a few short posts without much depth. In as much detail as possible, who do you consider your number one suspect and why?
@ Mana_Ku: You've made a lot of short, sarcastic replies rather than serious scumhunting. With as little sarcasm as possible, what were your conclusion after having looked into Kmd, Charter and myself? (#178)
@ Orange: You've really done no scumhunting. Please briefly give your thoughts on each player.
@ Stef: You're not saying much. What is your opinion on the events of the last three IRL days?
@ Tony: You've really done no scumhunting. Please briefly give your thoughts on each player.

Man, including the replacement, that's like half the town.

[Nameless]

And I've said it before, 90% of your contributions have been to ask for contributions.

Statistics, I choose you! (These do not include this post, and I'm including lack of contribution under the general topic of lurking.)

Posts by Nameless: 24 (100%)
Posts by Nameless mentioning lurking: 8 (33.33%)
Posts by Nameless mentioning lurking with no other serious points: 1 (4.16%)

In due time.

When, and why not now?

[Nameless]

My case on Nameless and charter, scumlords:

That deflates quite a bit of my own personal suspicion, actually.

Upon review of your defense, it's ad hom. and bewildered sarcasm with very little content.

Meh, you're right that it's not the most airtight case,

I haven't dropped the case on Nameless,

I built a half-assed case based mostly on gut

[Nameless]

Contradicting yourself is kind of a bad thing.
Contradicting yourself is a really good thing!

One of those sentences was sarcastic. Can you guess which one? (Hint: It's not the first.)

[Nameless]

Are you addressing Kmd or I in the above post?

In any case, regarding #254, what I'm pointing out is that you yourself seem unsure whether your case (which you never clarified, I might remind) is BS or not. The obvious implications are that is IS and that you appear moreso scummy for wavering back and forth about it.

[Nameless]

@ Wall-E (re. #266): I made an argument with quoted evidence, that's already more than you did for you entire case against me. You can't put the onus on me for

everything

.

@ OP: Coming out of lurking to jump on a bandwagon without giving reasons? Yeah, that's a

FoS

. What we actually want the lurkers to do here is

contribute to discussion.

How about answering my question from #239?

unvote, vote OP

Charter, is this vote ...

supposed

to be as "ironic" as it actually is?

[Nameless]

Unless [Wall-E] can prove me otherwise, I have my scum right there.

You personally haven't exactly made much of a case on Wall-E, or given a great deal of commentary to the hundreds of posts made before you replaced in. If the first thing you do after replacing is vote the largest bandwagon without saying much, that's no better than Orange jumping out of nowhere to do so.

Wall-E might be the scummiest player at the moment, but these things are not going unnoted. I don't want to see Wall-E lynched until

everyone

in this game has made a significant contribution.

[Nameless]

unvote, vote GK

Calling this now, GK is scum and Wall-E is not.

This is the part where you explain why.

[Nameless]

No matter what he says in response, Charter either just admitted to being outright Scum or purposefully misleading, which was my case all along ...

... 2) You do not know this, you have a hunch like you said earlier, and you are again being misleading.

GK,

no.

Let's

not

start lynching people based on the terminology they're using when announcing their suspicions. Really.

I'm still not liking Charter's recent votes. GK actually makes a good point regarding their timing, although Charter makes a good point regarding the deflection of GK's #294 and GK's "I wanted to help wake you up" has crossed the line from newbie to BS scummy.

Meanwhile, Wall-E has done nothing to look less scummy, made the weak excuse that he "forgets" to mention motivations and I don't even know what the heck he was on about the "Knight in Shining Armour" phrase for. That combined with the earlier swearing and "lets see YOU do any better" comments sound incredibly out of place for anybody over the age of twelve and who has played in as many games as he has.

I'd really like all three to be scum, but this situation feels like a train wreck. Wall-E definitively has to go, but I'm starting to feel the rest of the scum will be among the lurkers trying to stay unconnected to Wall-E and watching a townie Charter and GK tear each other apart. (I'm especially think of OP here.)

[Nameless]

I dont get how you think Wall-E is scum, but OP is just sitting back watching me and GK tear each other apart while OP is voting for Wall-E.

OP could be the SK, or more likely and as I mentioned, distancing himself from Wall-E.

Also, you want to hurry D1 but are going to wait to post your suspicions until ... when? Just in time to stop a hammering or until D2 when you might not be alive?

GnKoichi and charter are both off my list as of this post.

And your thoughtful, townie reasoning for this is ...?

I don't mean to be arrogant, but is there anything that would make me wrong here? Isn't this the strongest scum argument we've seen all game? EVERYONE! Please throw your votes to Charter!

*snap*

unvote; vote: GnKoichi

[Nameless]

"GK, you've pushed your newbie act too far for me to believe that there is any significant chance of you being a townie and acting in this manner" - should be the implication of said SFX.

Charter has done several dubious things but what you are actually pushing on him amounts to incredibly exaggerated

semantics.

I pointed this out nicely, and you repeat the craplogic louder. This, plus most of what Kiro argued in #330, makes me reasonably sure you're scum.

[Nameless]

He has almost admitted to being scum.

HE ADMITTED TO BEING SCUM!

Counterpoint: No, he didn't.

There's ... really not much else you can say about that. People often say "know" when they're convinced of something, in Mafia and IRL.

[Nameless]

I am not arguing semantics.

Nameless: That's not what "know" means,

Wait. You say he basically admitted to being scum, but is being misleading? If he is misleading us, and admitting to being scum, wouldn't that make him town by your logic?

Wait, wait, wait. Now

Kmd

is misinterpreting GK?

Damn it people, you can't ALL be scum.

[Nameless]

No, arguing semantics means you are arguing over what the meaning of a word is, trying to shift the meaning to help your case.

Technically it's a bit wider than that, and given your case relies entirely on ignoring ...

NO. No, I am NOT going to argue semantics over arguing semantics. Now this is just getting stupid. Certain posters need to start playing this game or request replacement ([Out Of Game]I'm serious, you're being unfair on those who are not to mention extremely irritating[/OOG]) and Charter needs to get in here and start answering questions (although, feel free to ignore GK's nonargument, I know I would ). Failing that, GK or Wall-E need more votes.

[Nameless]

Nameless, stop pushing for a lynch for transparently OMGUS reasons.

Okay, right off the bat, no. I'll happily admit one of my reasons for having figured you're scum is OMGUS, but this is because ... get this .. (and even you eventually admitted it) ... your case

did

suck. Badly. As such, it's a perfectly valid reason.

I have to agree with Wall-E on this one. I think Namless is up to something, thought I don't know what.

If you think I might be scum, say it. What else is "up to something" even supposed to

mean

in this context?

You yourself said that Wall-E is the biggest threat and that Charter and I are likely both town and we've been allowed by a lurking scum team to tear each other apart. What happened to change that?

"GK, you've pushed your newbie act too far for me to believe that there is any significant chance of you being a townie and acting in this manner"

I think GnK has been doing a REALLY good job. This is his first game, yet he is already a better player than I am, which isn't too hard to beat. I didn't really think so at first, but his Wall-E-Charter theory makes enough sense. He explained his actions rather well, more so than how I did.

Notice how OP's attempts to efforts not to lurk once again involve nothing more than popping in to agree with someone rather than actually, you know, make his own judgements or ask questions or anything.

No, that's what I freaking said in 329.

And that's what we're all freaking asking you about. It's generally in the scum's benefit to end the day when there is obviously still more to discuss. Do us all a favour for once and explain yourself.

[Nameless]

Heeeeey guys ... Just a quick FYI, a few minutes ago I received a delivery of one new, shiny laptop. So, apologies in advance if I'm distracted from saying much in the next few days.

(

Unvote

, just in case.)

[Nameless]

Aaaaand

, I'm back, now on a new, shinier, and more tediously reproduced inane levels of option/program/tweak/etc settings THINGIER laptop! Let's take a look at what I've missed, shall we?

Another absurd "If you X, you must be scum" statement from Charter aside, what worries me most is the defeatism regarding lynching. I know from personal experience Charter CAN play this poorly as town, but he never struck me as someone who would give up that easily.

Kiro makes some good points in the follow post, anyway, but I really don't like the vote on animorpherv. It seems pretty weak, particularly in comparison to the other equally bad lurkers. (Anim's reply is rather bad, mind you.)

GK's #446 has officially triggered my Pet Peeve - suspecting a large number of people is not scummy, and lord forbid he might have stopped suspecting his previous suspect as much when he decides on a new one(s). Also attempting to just shrug off attacks (the clearly lashing out comment).

Wall-E's still being unhelpful, making general accusations without evidence or discussion.

... did Stef just place a serious vote on Charter based on mild comparison between games? That sounds a poor excuse to jump on a bandwagon.

FOS: Stef.

(Re: Charter's question, I'd say Stef was mildly inactive but not deliberately lurking akin to certain players in this game.)

Charter and GK haven't SEMANTICS BATTLE!1! and many eyes were rolled at both side of the argument.

Kmd's comments on hammering in #484 seem somewhat dubious. He's saying he will hammer, when HE "feels" nothing else needs to be answered, but he doesn't really mind if the lurkers don't? Sounds dodgy.

After reading Charter's (at the time) possible last few posts I'm ... actually inclined to think he might be town (or at least, not mafia). There's certainly a few players I'd look hard at if he flipped such, and it helps that the other players I suspect the most are happy to be on the bandwagon.

Wall-E and OP's 500 to 503 are ... horrible. Wall-E's ONLY lead is that Charter is "wimping out"? OP is convinced Charter is scum for explained reason whatsoever (unless "is obvious" counts). OP will "address the questions" by ... no actually, he doesn't any specific questions at all - and Wall-E is fine with that?!

Sudden mind change by Wall-E? Unexplained? Attempts to distance himself from a dubious and seemingly inevitable bandwagon? Lurkerscum Tony is displeased his scumbuddy is backing down? ALL SYSTEMS CHECK.

Hmm ... I'm going to go with Tony / GK / Wall-E scumteam. Some of Wall-E and GK's interaction seems off (closeness earlier on, prompting by GK to Wall-e, the whole "wake up" vote thing) and Wall-E could be seen buddying with lurker OP (I mentioned the exchange above). Don't know about the SK, there's too many other mildly suspicious players. >_<

Vote: GnKoichi

[Nameless]

When I misspell something it means I was experiencing consternation or anxiety over the thing. I think the Mod is worried GnK is going to deflate this game with a townie vs newbie townie brawl.

(Sorry for the empty post here, but you have to admit that's pretty funny.)

[Nameless]

All the players? I'd rather not give the scum that info. I'm fine with giving my top suspects and all that, but I am not going to say who I think is the most townest. (yes, that's not a word)

OP you say that, but you're yet to give (as GK asked) a

detailed

analysis of ANYthing/one so that doesn't actually mean much coming from you.

[Nameless]

Nameless, your catching-up analysis post seems to leave out the biggest thing that happened while you were gone: Charter's lies. How do you feel about posts #398, #400, #403, and #476. Those posts detail the three flat out lies Charter has made. What do you think about this?

Huh. I must have started started my catch up post from #423, even though I hadn't actually commented on anything since my last post BEFORE that.

Regarding #398 to #403, Charter does contradict himself once or twice but not on anything

really

important, and he admits to the fact even when eg. his vote change could be easily justified as acting on one suspicion of GK rather than unvoting on the basis of noninclusion of his other suspicious (this should be obvious, yet the other side of the argument is mostly ignored), then taking into account the number of people who suddenly jump on his bandwagon over something that's not even deliberately malicious or directly beneficial to the scum ... Instinct, reasoning and meta experience all tell me Charter is unlikely to be mafia here.

Regarding #476, I didn't think it worth comment. Charter made one statement that was perhaps misleading from being unclear, but given Charter cleared it up in his next post you're basically stretching.

[Nameless]

@ Tony, it's called "giving my opinion". You should try it more often. (See also: dramatised interpretations, and yes, I wonder why that might be? in response to your other quotes.)

@ GK, you greatly overestimate the strength of your arguments. Charter has undeniably played poorly, but that's not the same thing as playing scummy. I find most of his reactions to being called out town, but, you know, interpretation. Also, agreeing with an argument isn't ignoring the other side. I don't think Charter has been deliberately malicious, but I still mention the possibility. Did ANYBODY even mention the point that technically some of Charter's contradictions weren't?

@ Wall-e, in lieu of nonsense posts, please explain why you think both Charter and GK are town. In, oh, at least a hundred words preferably.

It's not acceptable to contribute so little in a game. It's rude towards the mod, the players and it means not respecting the commitment you made when you joined.

This.

You casting a vote for anyone but Charter is essentially casting a vote against me.

See now, this is what we need more of. Meaningless dramatics, having just followed a responsive argument of reasonable length (if not correctness)!

Nay, let us not sheathe our swords for preservation but draw thy hammer in readiness to STRIKE the pretenders amongst us. Our glorious hour has come should our hidden foes* be revealed in twilight, and to the night our task yet unfulfilled, our thoughts to rebuild, for while the air is chilled quiet blood** - and some - is spilled ...

(*Psst, I'm talking about GK.)
(**Psst, I'm talking about the lurkers.)

[Nameless]

Wall-E, I would vote you in a second if GK weren't instead being bandwagoned right now. Also, please don't ignore questions.

[Nameless]

@ GK, re: #567 - You're missing the point. It's not that nobody defended Charter, is that nobody gave the appearance of even considering the other side, they just mindlessly agree and pile on the votes. And (WIFOM warning) admitting to something and trying to move on seems more townie than using technicalities and semantics to defend yourself. [/Serious] If Charter is an admitted liar, why should they trust him to admit he lied? (Wait, what?) [Serious]

Oh, and your understanding of voting theory is flawed, but I'm not even going there.

Re: GK's reread - Your player by player notes seem inconsistent at times with your final thoughts, and your sudden revelation of error feels contrived. A last ditch effort to throw off suspicion by reminding everyone you're newbie and giving yourself an excuse to start drawing attention to other people?

I disprove of an OP bandwagon formed on the premise that a lurker suddenly starts contributing what would seem to be honest thoughts rather then the usual exaggerations as seen from eg. Charter or GK. What OP's saying is no worse than me admitting I'd rather lynch Wall-E than GK. The sudden votes on him with

only this quoted

as an additional reason are bad play if not outright suspicious given the other still-lurkingers.

However, I DON'T like the way OP pretends to be hammering. If GK is scum, you'd better believe OP should be next in line for the noose. (And before somebody slower on the uptake asks, that would be because OP is attempting to gain the distance from his scumbuddy by being seen willing to hammer, without actually doing so. There is no good reason to pretend to hammer and I do not believe any player in this game is stupid enough to make such a post without checking the votecount first.)

[Nameless]

Nameless: Don't see a reason for you to say: "What OP's saying is no worse than me admitting I'd rather lynch Wall-E than GK." I think the wagon formed on OP has it's merits.

The wagon on OP does have merits, and OP's pretend hammer is scummy, but the reason I brought that point up and what still worries me is that Wall-E, GK and Plum all decide OP is

now

worth their vote and the ONLY thing they mention as a

new

reason against OP is his that he dares to admit he's not 100% sure and that GK is only his 2nd or 3rd choice for a lynch.

This.

This.

This. (Is active lurking.)

[Nameless]

I was showing the fact I was agreeing with him. That's a problem?

You weren't contributing your own thoughts/ideas/etc, so yes!

Hey you know who else isn't contributing their own thoughts/idea/etc. in the last few days? EVERYONE.

So, Plum's vote has been sufficiently explained but given Kiro now also quoting the "not entirely convinced" line I'm beginning to think I'm the only one interpreting that statement benevolently. Charter's wager that OP is town probably isn't quite as objective as he'd like us to believe given Charter is ALSO relying somewhat on a really bad meta to get away with anti-town behavior.

[Nameless]

Scum don't read the thread. Scum just post whatever. They don't worry about lynching not-scum.

This is so wrong that it hurts me not to vote you for saying it.

[Nameless]

Maybe you can be more specific? Why is it scummy to say this?

Saying that scum don't read the thread and just post whatever is like saying that football players close their eyes and just kick wherever. I'd call you a complete idiot if I actually thought you believed it, but you saying things like that in the context of a serious argument would seem to imply that you're scum BS/craplogic-ing. I'd congratulate you on that being one step up from nonsense posts, but then 637.

[Nameless]

Hey everyone! Guess what? D1 has earned my official Nameless Stamp for reaching "long and annoying" status and I am tired of it.

which [OP] thought was the hammer

Allegedly.

From what we've seen here, I say we can all think Wall-E is

grabbing at mid air.

obscum who is alternating between spewing whatever crap comes to mind to avoid looking like a lurker and making vague unexplained and/or confusewithcraplogic accusations.

Fixed that for you! I'm so nice like that.

[Nameless]

Wall-E, if you're replying to multiple people could please copy everything into ONE post instead of FIVE.

[Nameless]

I still think some people let GK (and Wall-E, for that matter) off the hook too easily, but you know what, fine. At this point I pretty much agree with Stef's last post and I don't think we're really getting that much more out of D1. (Also Ani's #669 is a transparently weak attempt at contributing without saying

anything

.)

unvote; vote: animorpherv

And if you're not convinced of GK / Wall-E, somebody

at least

vig Tony.

[Nameless]

Kmd, #704, nice active lurking post right there.
Wall-E, #707, enough with the wildly flailing your opinions around already. It's somewhat hard to take anything you say seriously when you change your mind or post nonsense in the next post. Also, your case against OP isn't a particularly great one, but I'd like to see OP reply to it first.
GK, #713, "unpredictably" is a nice way of saying "unexplained and scummy". Also, just because he's backed away from a bandwagon doesn't mean "for sure" anything, he could (obviously) just be doing it for his own appearance.
EK, #718, calling GK's jokey comment about his FoS resentment of being worried is a stretch. Strongly disagree about Plum not scumhunting; after, what, the second post the only times she mentions strategy is directly responding and relevant to accusations and the like (eg. GK accusing Charter of misleading the town). I'd find that comment suspect, but I'll chalk it up to only skimming the thread as a replacement. Also, if I was slow to suspect GK it was because I was trying to give the newbie the benefit of the doubt.
GK, #720, so 23/29 pages is "half the game" now?

[Nameless]

Nameless, I thought you didn't want to argue semantics anymore.

I'd congratulate you on the clever response (and chastise myself for inviting it) if I didn't still think you notably changed your estimate.

But yes, technically it wasn't a contradiction and not a particularly notable point under my interpretation anyway, so I'll say no more on that.

[Nameless]

ITT, Nameless briefly descends into third person to distance himself from himself as he actually agrees with something that Wall-E says (#727) although that

was

something that Nameless had mentioned against Kmd two hours earlier so he's yet convinced Wall-E actually had an original, useful thought.

Nameless has also decided it worth mentioning that GK's accusation of Charter in #732 is, indeed, exaggerated.

Ani posts with no contribution and Nameless watches Wall-E with interest. OP is still hypocritical and Nameless is disappointed, and also wishes OP would actually make the analysis of GK he supposedly wanted to make.

[Nameless]

what was it that I said that you supposedly already said?

You effectively called Kmd out for active lurking in #727, while I'd called out Kmd for active lurking in #721 (although you referred to a different post of Kmd's).

[Nameless]

This post is meaningless drivel, as it includes nothing that can be debated.

Wall-E, that is pretty much what active lurking IS, and I didn't say that you also mentioning it was a scumtell.

Really don't like Kmd's hammer without time for everyone to chime in, especially when there are plenty of other suspicious players to lynch instead of a claimed power role, and several times before now he's been one to advocate patience and waiting for all discussion to finish etc. ... and what is the point of #762?

Ani, hate to break this to you, but you really sucked.

[Nameless]

kmd, explain.

Allow me to elaborate slightly:

Kmd, explain.

Vote: Kmd4390

[Nameless]

@Kmd: Nobody is buying that, so explain why you felt the need to pretend not to hammer, and you're supposed to be explaining also why you felt the need to hammer Ani the moment he claimed vig rather than let most players even SEE the claim before twilight. And then elaborate on your apparent suspicions of GK and Kiro (you're opinion sure as hell are not clear on this, actually).

In other news, I disapprove of a massclaim.

I don't recall needing 2 Dcotor protects to ward off 2 separate Kills for example.

That player will be protected from a single kill effect that night.

[Nameless]

EBWOP: Okay, the sceptical smiley is probably going overboard there. And OP,

elaborate.

[Nameless]

Nameless, I wanted to fake hammer for reactions. I screwed up. Not much more I can say.

... and you're supposed to be explaining also why you felt the need to hammer Ani the moment he claimed vig rather than let most players even SEE the claim before twilight. And then elaborate on your apparent suspicions of GK and Kiro (you're opinion sure as hell are not clear on this, actually).

Now THIS is a situation where a skeptical smiley is justified.

[Nameless]

Am I wrong?

Yeah. SK is NK immune, and you're not taking today's lynch into account. Duh / WTF Wall-E.

Jumbled thoughts coming soon!

[Nameless]

Okay, I'm not which of claiming / not claiming / lynching scum / lynching SK ends up with the greatest chance of survival, I'll try and think through the possibilities later. First thoughts are that claiming doctor targets probably isn't going to be overly helpful anyway with half the players lying (+1 if the Vig chooses not to claim), and that trying to lynch the SK and hoping to block the mafia's NK > than lynching one mafia and having two scum NKs to worry about, but yeah, somebody who isn't Wall-E might want to work out the likelihoods for that.

Next thought, after doing a partial reread, I'm about 95% sure GnKoichi is the SK. He's been on every major wagon, made the mistake of suggesting no lynch, exaggerated poor arguments and cases, tried to handwave suspicion by saying things like "I'm turning over a new leaf", "All the hate against me isn't grounded", "I'm only being lynched because I'm defending myself" (Paraphrasing) ... It doesn't help that the first thing he says D3 is LET'S IGNORE THE SK EVERYONE.

I'm less sure on who the scum are, but it's probably Wall-E / Tony. Although, when looking for connections from Kmd, I did notice that (unless I missed something) Kiro never responded to or gave opinions on KMD at all until KMD's hammer ... which Kiro shrugs off as WIFOM (it kind of wasn't). Come D2 Kiro briefly jumps on the Kmd wagon, only to jump off after "forgetting" Kmd could selfhammer - I'm not sure whether this is supposed to be an attempt to stop people voting for a scumbuddy (while still bussing him) or blatantly reminding Kmd TO selfhammer when the chance arrived, but it really doesn't look townie to me.

To further tear apart your insistence that my choice not to protect N2 was a scumtell: Don't you think scum would have just faked a protect claim? It's arguably less attention-getting and supremely easy to do. Why confess if I'm scum? Why not just say, "I protected [living player] on N2?"

OH DEAR GOD THE WIFOM IT BURNS. (Waits for Wall-E to say something like "But if I was scum, then I wouldn't post such obvious WIFOM, so I must be town!")

I still don't see what waiting would have accomplished. Can someone explain that to me?

Are you always this poor at Mafia or is it just an act you put on when you're scum? Time = discussion from more townies = finding the scum.

[Nameless]

Hey, I'm just going to say here, even being increasingly sure that Wall-E is scum, I do no want to see any large bandwagons before we have our act together and are reasonably sure who

all

the scum are. The reason I say this, is because even if we lynch scum we still lose unless everybody's night actions are used correctly ie, the docs need to know who to protect and the vig needs to know who else to hit.

Also @ Plum, it's in the SK's best interests to scumhunt during the day, but if we lynch one of the mafia then the SK might still target a townie, hoping the vig would take out the other unprotected mafia ... which could end with SK winning if all three kills went through, or various final days depending which didn't. If we lynch the SK, and all kills goes through, we have townie against mafia as the final day. Either way, screwing up night actions can end in an loss, and that's assuming we lynch the right person in the fist place (although, I'd consider our chances of THAT pretty good, even without the mafia and SK gunning for each other). So ... I'd say lynch whoever we're collectively most sure is scum, but we really need to be fairly sure on the others first.

After thinking about it, I would recommend the vig don't claim or at least if s/he does the doctors don't protect the vig unless they would have otherwise, because the chances of going into N4 is low, the vig's kill still goes through if the big is NKed N3, and both docs protecting the vig just makes it easier for the Mafia / SK's kill to go through.

And

that

is the last I have to say on the theory. In the next episode of Open 99, Nameless resumes scumhunting!

[Nameless]

I'd feel

slightly

more sure in YOUR lynch, GK, but I would be willing to vote Wall-E once I'm sure who the other scum is.

QUESTIONS:
@ Kiro, what is your response to my accusations regarding Kmd connections? (See #826)
@ GK, what is your response to my accusations that you are the SK? (See #826)
@ Wall-E, if you're really sorry you've "completely boned the town", how about you start by explaining just what you were thinking when you lied?
@ Tony, what are you thoughts on, oh, everything that has happened in the last IRL two weeks.
And, I can't really think of a question for Plum right now.

[Nameless]

...

Okay, what I said about being more sure in a GK lynch? Scratch that, Wall-E dies when I decide between Tony and Kiro.

[Nameless]

That line is getting a bit old, Tony.

[Nameless]

@ Tony, you say Plum is "neutral at best", but not once in your review (or indeed, the entire game) have you mentioned a single negative point against her. Why?

How would that benefit the SK?

I am getting a little bit tired of players (pretending?) not to know the setup. SK has NK immunity. Lynching is the only way to kill the SK, ergo not lynching = win for SK.

The situation is exactly as described by Tony.

Tony described you

as scum

. Also, "Why do you think I'm voting for you?" is a really bad way of trying to have a townie damn themselves because you can't BS an explanation.

[Nameless]

Confident the SK is already on your scumbuddy's wagon?

[Nameless]

Plum does seem a little overly defensive against Wall-E's empty accusation, but I'm still not seeing a case for her to be scum over eg. Wall-E.

My personal thought is that Kiro is the SK or the Mafia Doc (based solely on him wanting to avoid protection back in Day 1)

And yet this is

right after

refuting your similar mistake of advocating a no lynch!

[Nameless]

After a whole game of evidence, expecting us to (presumably) lynch somebody on the basis of one early game mistake, after you've admitted to doing a similar thing, is

incredibly

bad play (read: scummy). If you were

actually

town, then you would KNOW that Kiro could have made a mistake too and that it alone is an awful reason to suspect somebody given the large number of other reasons to lynch anybody else that have arisen in the last 35 pages. "I know I'm town" is not an excuse, it is meaningless and hypocritical.

(And, FYI, there isn't "isn't much more" to your suspicion on Kiro than my suspicions of you, there is much, much less. And most of the case on you you've already admitted.)

And now, to calm down with something a little more lighthearted:

Something you want to confess?

Yeah, your mom is awful in bed.

[Nameless]

To say that my comment about Kiro was trying to start a vote rally is a major overstatement.

I didn't say you were trying to "start a vote rally", I made the presumption that if you thought Kiro was mafia or particularly SK (who can't be viged) then you would want to have him lynched today or D4. Assuming you DON'T want the scum to win, that's self evident.

Also, he says that if I were town I would give Kiro the benefit of the doubt. This doesn't follow. It's possible for both a town player and a scum player to make the same mistake.

If you were town, you wouldn't seriously suspect a player, after 850+ game posts, "based solely" (direct quote) on a single mistake that you've made yourself. I'm not sure how much further I can elaborate on that being incredibly stupid / antitown. ("... so you see kids, the town need to find as many and strong as possible scumtells against somebody before they have a good chance of being right. Otherwise they might as well roll a dice or just do what the scum tell them! ..." )

Finally, I made it clear that "I know I'm town" doesn't clear me of anything. Before you started attacking me I admitted that those mistakes early in the game could end up killing me, and I accepted responsibility for that many times.

Yes, you admitted your mistakes. Yes, you know that saying "I'm town" doesn't clear you of anything. If this is the case, why do you a) bother saying it, b) now attack me for suspecting you on the basis of issues you've admitted you're not cleared of and c) not attempt to actually clear yourself by further explaining yourself, making serious analysis etc.

most of our information for the next day will come in analyzing today and tonight ... pushing a case against me this hard when we've got scum trapped already is not going to help the town.

What you seem to be "forgetting", GK, is that

even lynching scum

if the town screws up their night actions there won't BE another day. So yeah, it's kind of important to figure everything out before lynching anyone.

I'm surprised you're bothering to do all that again when you actually had a point that Nameless had some intereactions with KMD (scum) and Wall-E (unconfirmed, but likely lynch).

Yeah ... anybody care to tell me what those were supposed to be?

But now you're taking your suspicion of me way too far.

I'm curious as to what you actually mean by this. I said earlier I was 95% sure you were the SK, with no comment from you until I specifically asked you to reply. All I've done since then is point out the, ahem, poorness of your claimed suspicion of Kiro. I haven't even voted you. Pointing out a bad argument is taking my suspicion way too far now?

Any reason why you felt compelled to leave me alone in Day 2 and yet get on Wall-E and GnK's case about SK immunity today?

In Wall-E's case he'd screwed up his analysis in other ways too, and by the time GK screwed up the setup it WAS getting a little bit annoying correcting people. (Okay, the harshness of responses might have been a bit of preexisting bias since I already thought Wall-E and GK were scum, but didn't really suspect you at the time.) I haven't brought up the points again in any of the cases, either.

[Nameless]

I don't think Nameless will hammer, because I'm pretty sure he's the scum buddy and he thinks he has a chance to turn the tide against me before the day is over, saving his friend

... Why do I have this feeling you're trying to goad me? At the risk of sounding like an echo of Kmd, I'll gladly hammer myself when I'm convinced the rest of the town know who the rest of the scum are. (See: #850)

Anyway, your refusal to elaborate on your "way too far" comment and your basically empty suspicion of Kiro is noted.

This is the internet.

[OOG]The internet? THIS - IS - nevermind. Try not taking much I say personally, I often tend to sarcasm and the like when making cases. Probably a style or effect thing. Except when people lurk, I'm seriously annoyed about that.[/OOG]

[Nameless]

@ Wall-E, I recall you posting nonsense rather than contributing once or twice during D1.

Startlingly

I meant that I, personally, would hammer you when Plum / Kiro are ready. Also, I like the way you ask GK why he doubts you'll self hammer ... right after stating "hell no" to ending the day now and that it's a "sign of extreme disfunction" that anyone is even at L-1. (Not that GK actually answered the question or anything.)

I doubt the SK will claim.

I can't think of any particular reason you would think this, why do you believe it so? ... Oh wait! Yes, I can, because you are the SK and spontaneously claimed.

Nameless was one of the biggest voices to push for lynching lurkers.

Yeah, if I have two pet peeves in mafia they are being accused of suspecting too many people, and lurkers. In my defence, the only time I voted on the basis of noncontribution was on Ani and he was just awful.

Let's also remember Wall-E's attempt to show Nameless is scum. He made a huge argument, but as soon as one player showed one thing was a misread, he dropped it.

Wall-E's (#205) entire case against me was WTF awful for a little bit more than one thing being misread and it was like twenty or something posts from Wall-E later that he actually "withdrew now his case".

Nameless is the first to vote Kmd when the day begins. This ensures that a rally begins RIGHT AWAY

There are two ways I could respond to this. The first is that putting a single vote on Kmd was justified given there needed to be some pressure to get Kmd to explain his dubious hammer (or not, as the case turned out). The second is admitting it was a mistake to leave Kmd at L-2 after YOU happily jumped on the "rally" to first put Kmd there.

Nameless is last on the boat against Wall-E, and even when he joins he does nothing to add to the argument. He simply says he's ready to vote Wall-E.

I've been pushing Wall-E and willing to see him lynched since D1, actually. After Wall-E started lying D3 and everybody else figured he was scum there wasn't much more to say other than figuring out who the OTHER scum are for night actions. (Protip: That's you as the SK and Tony as the mafia.)

[Nameless]

If Wall-E is acting increasingly anti-town and has earned your vote, why shouldn't we discuss connections to help decide night actions while we still can? If you think it's highly questionable to assume Wall-E is scum, why did you put him at L-1?

[Nameless]

If everybody claims, the mafia and SK will have a much better chance of guessing who the real docs/vig will target N3.

[Nameless]

Nameless, can you give a summary of why you believe GnK has, in your opinion, a 95% chance of being the SK?

- Suggesting a no lynch, which obviously benefits the SK.
- GK has been been on every major wagon, with very dubious reasoning at times (eg. L-2 on Wall-E called a "warning"), the SK wanting anyone lynched for any reason.
- Many times GK greatly exaggerated cases and pushed weak/non points (particularly semantics) for an immediate lynch rather than further scumhunt (eg. "HE ADMITTED TO BEING SCUM!"), again, quick lynches benefit the SK the most since the SK doesn't need to worry about night actions.
- I still don't like those general statements attempting to shrug of suspicion rather than address or admit to it (eg. #169). That GK later (only after coming under heavy suspicion) changes tact and starts just admitting to everything with slightly different general statements (eg. "Guess all I can say is "I'm not"") just seems like another attempt in itself to throw off justified suspicion rather than actually help the town, and certainly most of his scummy actions still continue after this point. Generally dubious.
- GK continually pushes for docs to claim targets and spontaneously claims himself, even after others have disagreed. Generally dubious, as I mentioned earlier and Plum elaborated on.
- Is adamant that we should leave the SK for later, that the SK will be gunning for the mafia, that the SK will not claim (shortly after he does), and has still been pushing to end the day ASAP. GK's not exactly being subtle here.

As for Kmd's fake hammer gambit ... I don't know, since Kmd could still have been BSing after he selfhammered or just trying to cast suspicion on anyone he thought he could get away with, I don't think it's worth trying to read much into what he might have planned for his scumbuddies or otherwise had he not screwed up.

[Nameless]

@ GK, right, disregard that "SK wouldn't claim" point. I missed/forget your clarification when I was skimming the thread to summarise my case for Plum. Otherwise, still disagree with you.

At this point, particularly given the two day lull, I don't think much could happen that would change my own opinions into the night, and I don't think I'm going to convince anyone else any further of these. I'd be fine with Plum or myself hammering once everybody else has checked in one last time.

[Nameless]

Screw it, this is going nowhere, and it's going there slowly. Tony hasn't said <much> all this entire game, and I really doubt he's going to start now.

Vig him.

Wall-E can't make a case against Plum? Shocked, I am SHOCKED that this is the case. Apologies to Plum if she wanted to wait, but I'm done.

Vote: Wall-E

[Nameless]

Finally,

I actually won a game. Still surprised that nobody killed Tony. I know I would have if he wasn't on my team. Little bit sad when Kmd gave himself away with the hammer, but that probably worked out for the best anyway. Wall-E was just ... weird, I didn't really have to do much D3 except sit around and pretend to be thinking. Kind of wanted GK lynched instead, so it's a good thing I lucked out on night actions.

Good game

most

, not including those players with unacceptable contribution levels (... Tony). Plum and Kiro I thought played well throughout, and given his inexperience and role GK managed to do alright most of the time too.

[Nameless]

We won didn't we? :p

I don't think you actually participated in the game enough to fairly say that you won anything.