Open 99: Mayo Clinic (Game Over!) before 703

[GnKoichi]

Vote: Nameless

Of the four other votes so far, he seems to be trying the hardest not to sound like scum.

[GnKoichi]

Yeap. That smiley face is sinister.

[GnKoichi]

kmd, what's your thought process on that?

[GnKoichi]

Ah. Cool.

[GnKoichi]

unvote: nameless

vote: charter

Going with a kind of connect 4 theory here, on who wants to risk getting closer to a high number this early (yeah, 3 is way not even close to 7, but we don't have a lot to go on right now). Also just trying to keep the votes spread until we get some more tells.

What's this idea with rotating protection? We could try it for this round at least. If people claim vig and we get three or four, that's still enough to keep them protected, even double protect two without having to out doctors (if all doctors focus on those four, they'll be protected with some natural overlap). Though I guess the flaw here is that also outs the doctors as easy targets that night. There's really no way to do this yet, is there?

[GnKoichi]

It's not great odds, but I guess it's better than the normal odds, which would be... Well... chance of lynching a town by mistake first round is 2/3, right? So, chances are we're looking at being down 1 before the night even begins.

Then, if we don't claim vigs, we're just randomly protecting people, so it's likely we'll waste atleast one doc on a mafia or the sk. Then we're only half protected, and we've got four kills at night (right? 1 mafia, 1 sk, 2 vigs?) assuming we haven't lynched the sk or vigs. But the kills are also random. It's likely two will hit protected people, and two won't. Those unprotected people are more likely to be town, so it would not be very hard for us to end up with three dead docs on the morning of day 1.

If that makes sense, the vig claiming sounds better. But I may be missing something.

[GnKoichi]

Yeah. That makes sense.

[GnKoichi]

What are we agreeing to? That by not claiming for a few night, we're likely to keep night deaths low? That makes sense if I'm reading it right.

On a side note, who's for lynching Plum if he doesn't say something soon?

[GnKoichi]

edit by way of post: "that by not claiming for a few days, we're likely to keep night deaths low"

[GnKoichi]

Sorry Plum. The Lynch thing for you was a poor joke. I'd be much more likely to vote for you based on your extremely strong reaction, but that's just me.

I think we're all in agreement on the lack of role claiming. So, where does that leave us?

Apparently, I've got the FOS. So, you know, awesome.

I still have my connect four suspicion on charter, but that's just a hunch among a sea of weak feelings.

Plum had a violent reaction to being called out, but that's seems more like a volatile player than a scum trying to avoid suspicion. Or is that what she wants us to think? (sorry about calling you a he, also)

And then there's my nameless smiley face theory. Jeez, day 1 is hard.

[GnKoichi]

I don't know why I didn't think about this before. Charter was saying that we should try to avoid night deaths, right? He was essentially saying that time, in this setup, gives us a better chance to win. If we keep deaths low, that gives us more time to use our doctors for protection and gather intel to avoid accidentally killing one of our own (since all town are either doc or vig, we're all pretty key for the team).

So, who else is for a NL on day 1, then see what happens tonight?

unvote: charter

vote: NO LYNCH

[GnKoichi]

We're pretty likely to have two deaths tonight, aren't we? There are seven docs, one who can aim his protection, and the other six shooting in the dark, so you're likely to have overlap there. That would probably give us five or six people who are protected (out of 12, so about half). Then you have four kill attempts (1 mafia, 2 vigs, 1 sk), which are less likely to overlap since there are less of them. If there are four attempts on a group of half protected people, wouldn't we expect two of them to go through?

Maybe charter wants to avoid a No Lynch since a lynch would mean the likelihood of us killing one of our own docs (50% chance of this happening).

FoS: charter

.

Also, I know I'm drawing a lot of suspicion myself by talking this much. Just trying to see how people reacted to different things (who would jump on a two-vote first to make it a three vote [also charter] and how people react to being voted for). Since I'm advocating a No Lynch now, there's not much point in testing the water any more.

[GnKoichi]

Sorry that didn't answer everything people asked. Posts came as I was typing.

My idea behind the No Lynch was based on charter's idea, so I did think it was strange he went against it.

However, I do think we can get more info out of the night stage than this part of the scum hunt. If we lynch, we have a 75% chance of knocking out one of our own, and then having a worse night stage (because we'll have less protection from the doctors, or one less kill attempt from one of our vigs). If we make a plan for protection, that would be something to analyze on day 2. Right now, we have nothing but suspicions, and we're more likely to hurt ourselves than help.

If no one wants a No Lynch, I'll put my vote back on charter, for the reasons mentioned before.

[GnKoichi]

Sorry 66% chance to kill one of our own. Still not good odds.

[GnKoichi]

This is my first forum game, yes. Hence my propensity for what is apparently too much thinking out loud. It seems no matter what I say, I make someone suspicious of me. Still, I can't leave questions unanswered

My suspicion of charter was two-fold. He was the first to jump on a double-vote, making it a three-vote very early in the game. Secondly was his odd stance on the night thing. He says there's unlikely to be a death tonight, which is completely untrue (we're likely to have between 1 and 3 deaths tonight) yet when I suggested avoiding a lynch to keep deaths even lower, he was against that. Contradictions tend to seem scummy.

Which brings me back to me. Yes, I've had different ideas through out this topic. Like I said, I was looking for reactions. I also tried to give a lot of my reasons for things as they came. It is my first game, and I didn't want to appear random (which would likely make me seem suspicious) instead of what I actually am, which is experimental.

Also, on the odds thing, it may be better than other mafia set ups, but it's still not in our favor. I suggested that we make some kind of protection plan (as had been mentioned by others first) so that we had something to analyze on day 2, and just do a No Lynch to lower the amount of deaths before we have some solid info.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, so, I never said that the 66% percent odds were bad in terms of other Mafia set ups. I just said it wasn't in our favor (by definition, if the odds are 51% against us or more, we're more likely to kill one of our own). But if it's sort of established that this is what you deal with on day one, perhaps killing one of your own and using what people have said as information to fuel the night kills, then I'm happy to withdraw my point.

unvote: No Lynch

Also, my point about charter was not that he didn't want to No Lynch, it was that he didn't want to No Lynch after making that misleading post about wanting to keep deaths low. He said there would likely not be any deaths at night, which is completely untrue (we are likely to have about two deaths tonight) and he was the first one to suggest this was a good thing (keeping deaths low overall to give us more time to gather info). I got railroaded for believing the latter and questioning the former, though I see now I should have questioned both. So:

vote: charter

That's all.

[GnKoichi]

I didn't misinterpret. He said something that was misleading, I think purposefully. Why would you say Night Kills are likely not to happen? Why would you say that this was a good thing, since everyone is telling me now that deaths are a good way to get information? Why did no one jump on Charter for saying this, but did jump on me for believing it? And I had a suspicion aimed at Charter before because he jumped on a three vote really early, when most people spread the votes around. This is more like mafia behavior (seeing an early lead against someone they want gone, and adding to the vote) or the serial killer (seeing ANY vote total go up quickly is a good thing).

[GnKoichi]

By the way, these are the quotes I'm referring to:

Another point of note. I think it might be very likely we go a few nights with no kills without the massclaim, which seems like pushing the game towards nightless, which is much better for the town.

I thought about no lynch, but in all honesty, I don't think it's the right option. I would be suprised if we have a kill tonight, so no lynch would put us right back where we are now (in all likelyhood).

[GnKoichi]

Yes, I'm aware of that. I wasn't trying to blame charter for setting me up. That was my own misinterpretation and I've withdrawn it. It has been explained to me why No Lynching is a bad idea, and it makes sense.

What WAS misleading was that we're extremely far from being night kill free. We are likely to have two kills tonight, maybe more, possibly less, but still at least 1 is extremely likely to get through our protection. This is extremely easy to figure out (we can protect about half the players, leaving half the kills to go through). So why would he say, TWICE, that we shouldn't worry about night kills? Maybe he doesn't want us to make any plans that would help us!

[GnKoichi]

Thanks for taking my words out of context.

I didn't misinterpret what charter said. I admitted to misinterpreting the established rules of mafia (in regards to no lynching on day 1).

He did says something misleading, but I am not blaming him for my No Lynch mistake. I AM blaming him for trying to mislead the group, though apparently I've acted as the perfect smoke screen to prevent people from seeing this.

[GnKoichi]

I believed him, and used that as a base for my next string of thoughts. Everyone attacked me for those thoughts, and no one looked at charter. That's the smoke screen effect I was talking about.

And the idea that I would have to blame my No Lynch idea on charter in order to say he was misleading is not anything approaching logic. I do blame him for making a misleading post aimed at the group, and that this played into my own idea for a No Lynch, but I don't think that was his intention, so I don't blame him for that. I still blame him for making a post that was misleading in other ways (for the third time, saying that there would be no night kills, when there will be many).

If charter turns out to be scum, Kmd is likely a partner.

[GnKoichi]

And a big thank you to Wall-E for understanding and being brave enough to stand up for a newbie.

[GnKoichi]

Hmm.. i think newbie games are there for a reason. Just my two cents. However, as apparently i like to repeat myself, being a newbie doesn't make his mistakes tolerable or acceptable. I won't give him the newbie status. He's a player like any other since he joined an OG instead of a NG. His nonsense is derailing the discussion and that is against scum-hunting no matter of his alignment.

I was willing to drop all of this a page ago, but people kept asking me questions, so I answered them. I haven't advocated the No Lynch since it was broken down for me how it wouldn't help. It was an idea, and I dropped it. Aside from that, I don't think I've speculated about plans that wouldn't work any more than Charter, Wall-e, Kmd, or Kiro (look at page 2 where all of this started).

I've said, like others, that I would like to get back to the game. I'm willing to take the ire of drawn so far and call it a loss. Can we move on now?

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: "the ire I've drawn"

[GnKoichi]

Please note charter trying to say he wasn't misleading, yet he still hasn't given a reason not to expect deaths tonight.

[GnKoichi]

There really isn't a good chance of having fewer than 2 kills. Like Nameless said, the chances of going below two is the same as going above 2. This isn't really something you can have personal feelings about Charter. It's math.

[GnKoichi]

I think in this case WIFOM even helps keep the math even. If around half the killers and doctors are thinking "lets go for who looks like an easy target" and the other half are thinking "lets go for someone who looks strong because it won't be expected" the same percentages will apply.

[GnKoichi]

hypothetical

Obviously this also plays into WIFOM, but if Wall-e and I were scum, wouldn't he try to distance himself from me right now? Since I'm a likely lynch target, him being the first to defend me would look terrible once my role were revealed.

/hypothetical

There's something you have to remember about WIFOM. It isn't used to say something is likely the opposite of how it seems. It's really describing an aspect of this game that makes things very hard to read. EVERYONE wants to appear innocent. You can have a strong feeling about WIFOM and how you feel people will vote, but it doesn't change the math involved. Some people will poison the wine in front of them, others will poison the wine in front of you. But you still don't know which side they are on, or if they are even a killer or a doc! Until we hit day 2, everything here is math.

[GnKoichi]

GnK's been continually pressured since his no-lynch vote. Regardless of him being newbie or not, I think he's running out of talking points and doesn't know how to defend himself at this stage. His last post is a mini-lecture about WIFOM that doesn't say much about himself. That there make him scummy enough in my eyes to see him lynched. Talk more about the suspicions about yourself or scumhunt. At this point, nothing else will save you.

I decided not to spend time trying to defend myself, because that's something everyone will try, town or scum. No one wants to get lynched. If you become a target, you can try to prove your innocence, but that in itself can look scummy if you're trying too hard. I found that the more vocal I was, the more ire I drew, so I've tried to learn from that mistake and take a step back. I'm trying to do a little more observation right now.

Through a reread, charter still looks scummy to me. I would say Kiro's idea of not protecting is scum worthy, but I'll give it the same benefit that wasn't given to me, that it was just a bad idea. Other than that, people are mostly hard to read. I'd say Nameless is town. Probably Mana Ku aswell. I'd like to say Wall-E is town, but it would be a really good mafia move to try and defend the first lynch candidate (me) knowing he'll be revealed to be town, thus making himself look unscummy. Especially if he knows his two mafia buds (charter & Kmd?) will go after me, and the SK is likely to jump on any high vote total.

[GnKoichi]

Just your willingness to join the attack against me and to defend charter, even when there was no defense for his position. There were legitimate reasons to be against my plan, which other people pointed out, and convinced me to change my mind. You, however, took things I said purposefully out of context to make me look worse.

[GnKoichi]

That's a fair point of view. I wasn't trying to blame charter (which I made clear). He WAS being misleading, maybe he was just mistaken, and that mistake ended up fueling my own mistake, but I never said THAT was his intention. I actually said several times that it was NOT his intention, although I have a feeling he is being misleading in some way.

Also fair to say you're not really on either of our sides now, but just as Wall-E would look guilty if I turned out to be scum, I think you would seem scummy should Charter prove to be scum. At least at first glance.

[GnKoichi]

The only way I felt Charter was being misleading was telling us not to worry about deaths at night. This is similar to Kiro asking us not to protect. He said it twice and was unable to come up with any reason for it, yet he hasn't changed his mind even after seeing the reasons against it. Holding on to irrational behavior seems odd to me.

[GnKoichi]

I haven't seen anything that shows what number of deaths are likely. I'm scum because you can't read.

I've posted these stats several time. I think someone else did as well (not Tony, I can't figure out what he's trying to say).

[GnKoichi]

Wow. That was a great counterpoint. I'm gonna have to go back to the drawing board on this one. Pack it up boys. We aren't right.

[GnKoichi]

Is my bad argument that I won't drop the NK thing or the Charter thing?

[GnKoichi]

@ GK, the way you keep going about Charter's NK speculation.

That's a tough accusation. If you pay attention to the last few pages, I've only continued talking about it as people have asked me directly about it. Infact, the last time I was asked, I just told Charter to refer back to my earlier posts. So why am I the one who can't let it go?

Guess I can forget about my town read on you.

[GnKoichi]

Do people really thinking posting a sentence fragment is going to help?

Also, both those quotes were answers to direct questions. Like I said, other people keep asking me things, so I give answers. My answers, since giving up on the bad no lynch idea, have been consistent. If I were being inconsistent, changing my answers to try to serve different people's ideas, that might look scummy. But I have a point of view, it has a reasoning behind it which I've given several times. No one has posted anything convincing that would oppose my idea, yet people keep questioning it. So again, I'll ask: Who is it who can't let this go?

[GnKoichi]

The question I was answering was "Why would I connect KMD & Charter, and how does that make either of them seem scummy?"

Tell me how to answer that without giving my reasons for thinking Charter is scummy. Also, give me the quote where Charter explains his position in a way that I haven't countered. He said that the kills and protects are likely to be focused and thus cancel out, except I gave a post a while ago explaining how some people will avoid the focus to make their kills go where they aren't expected, and some will try to protect off focus for this very reason. I said that and it was dismissed as me "giving a lecture" as someone put it. If giving a valid counter point is being overly talkative, I'm not really sure what you would make you believe me. You seem convinced that I'm scum, or you want everyone to believe that to pull focus away from Charter (if you're both scum, using me as a scapegoat is a good plan). Except once you lynch me and everyone sees I'm town, you and Charter are the next ones gone, because that will only prove that I'm right.

'kay?

[GnKoichi]

Orange, while reading through, don't think about me as targeted. There is a lot of hate against me right now, but if you read through rationally, you'll see it isn't grounded. I don't want to get lynched just because I've been defending myself.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, I'm really done trying to defend against your accusations. You're not saying anything new, and I hope I'm not the only one who sees that. You've been extremely selective with the truth. If you're legit, I'm sorry you don't think my answers stack up. But you seem to either read my posts with a slant against me, or you want to set up that slant to draw more fire my way. Yes, you made a pot shot against charter in the same post, but you haven't gone after him with anything near the same tenacity. That attack also came very shortly after Wall-E suggested a connection between the two of you, which is a little convenient, or at the least a bit unfortunate.

I guess I should have put a hypothetical tag on my talk about how bad certain people would look after I got lynched. I don't think I'm resigned to being taken out this round. I was just trying to point out a flaw an a potential mafia plot.

I would really like to hear from our absent members as well.

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: Urr, so that's what I get for posting as soon as I wake up. I reread your post Nameless and it seems pretty fair as far as analysis goes. I'm not sure what I skipped before that it seemed mean spirited, or why I felt so strongly about responding to it in kind. Yeah, basically just an apology for not reading carefully the first time. We cool man, we cool.

[GnKoichi]

True. Proof is too strong a word. It would just look bad for those first people who ganged up against me. We could find the same information by lynching Charter, and if he's scum, it's likely those same people are also scum. Again, not proof, but like you said, it's lends some credence to my argument.

[GnKoichi]

The reason I felt certain people would look bad is that a few votes came my way very quickly after I started to pressure Charter. If he is scum, don't those people look bad for trying to off me as soon as I was suspicious?

[GnKoichi]

I don't keep bringing up my suspicion out of nowhere. The conversation hasn't ended. People are still talking about it. If people were talking about other unrelated things, and I kept pointing a finger at you, that would be weird. I pointed a finger at you and it's stuck. People have asked me questions or commented on my position, and I've responded. If other people drop it, so will I, but my point against you stands.

[GnKoichi]

Also, to be perfectly honest the position of all six of us (Kmd, Charter, Wall-E, Nameless, Stef, and myself) are pretty much understood at this point. Any of us continuing could be seen as needless conversation and repetition. The people who matter right now are Orange, Mana, Tony, Puta, Kiro, and Plum. It's time to get off the sidelines.

[GnKoichi]

Kiro & Nameless: Yeah, I don't think Stef has any known reasons for his/her point of view. But he/she has made it pretty clear that they are going to vote for me anyways, so it seems like a waste of time to talk about unless he/she wants to change her mind.

Charter, what is your point exactly? Everybody in this game lies, Scum or Town. You have to keep some things close to the chest in this game because information is power. I'm not really sure what your point is. Are we supposed to trust you because you admitted to lying under a certain set of circumstances? What kind of Jack Sparrow philosophy are you testing now?

[GnKoichi]

Would I be out of line to ask everyone (especially those who haven't contributed much) to put their current ideas into a few sentences? Just who you're voting for, the reason why, and your other suspicions. This way we can have a good read on where people are and help get those who are behind in posting get caught up.

For example, mine would be:

Voting: Charter for misleading posts regarding night kills and trying to defend himself with his own history of lying.
Suspicions: Kmd for taking quotes out of context. Kiro for suggesting doctors not protect.

Can we get one of these from everyone?

[GnKoichi]

Plum: I know that my original idea against Charter was weak. Early vote count of 3 is not a whole lot, and the night kill argument might have just been a bad idea. Lord knows I had plenty of those myself. I might have switched my vote away from Charter (in fact, I did, to a No Lynch for a while) but I'm voting for him now because of the way he's defended his bad ideas. He gives no legitimate reasons for believing what he does. I've given good counterpoints, which he ignores. He said I was wrong, but gave no reasons why. Now he tries to defend himself with an odd philosophical smoke screen of "I've lied as town before, so I'm going to claim doc, and then pretend it doesn't mean anything. I'd love to be the scum you've accused me of being, because it sounds fun. I hope I get a chance to be that some day. So remember: Me, Charter, Town, Liar, Wants to be Scum, Isn't, Still a Liar". I feel like he felt the blade on his throat (despite never having more than three votes against him) and just started saying random things. The harder he pulls on this finger trap, the more stuck he seems in my mind.

Nameless: I don't want to make people skip over details, but for people like you and I, those details are out there to be read. A summation is good to make your point clear among all the details. Also, it's a really good way to get the others who haven't taken a stand yet make some kind of argument. We need new voices. I think there are certain votes out there left over from the random stage. Like Plum just did, those votes need to be turned into something useful and soon.

[GnKoichi]

I'll kill two birds with one stone, answering both Plum and Charter in their similar questions.

My vote for Charter has not changed, it's grown. I still believe that Charter's Night Kill comments are meant to confuse. Yes, some people have disagreed, and I've given the concession that it may just be a bad opinion on your part Charter. Perhaps I voted for you for the wrong reasons at first. But now, being able to see your posts as a whole, you seem to sow misinformation. Or, at least, you try. You pretend to answer questions or counter arguments, but there's no meat on those bones. If all of this just turns out to be a massive collection of bad ideas, I'll apologize for being wrong. But since that's pretty much what you've attacked me for all game, I don't think you'll deserve it.

More than likely, I think you're scum, and you're trying to make people worried and confused. You exaggerate. You talk about lying so that people can't figure out what you want them to think. I have had a lot of reasons for voting for you, because you've given them. You change personalities a lot, but they all feel wrong somehow. All together, it seems like a scum who got unlucky when a new player targeted him way too early and has been panicked and scrambling ever since.

[GnKoichi]

Your reasons for actually voting for me are pretty outdated.

- I gave up on the No Lynch idea a long time ago. It was very quickly made clear what a bad idea it was and where my own thinking went wrong.

- The only other reasons you give for voting for me are gone by the end of your own series of quotes. All that's left is that I felt Charter was misleading overall (not just the Night Kill thing), which I've given some good arguments for.

[GnKoichi]

What are the qualifications for a counter point around here?

[GnKoichi]

Stef: Fair enough. It just seemed like most people had accepted this as a mistake on my part. It's completely reasonable for someone to hold on to it as evidence I suppose. *mock lawyer voice* But I'll clear my name some day! I swear I will! *ahem*

Wall-E: What's going on? Ever since your "Hypocrite" comment it's like you aren't even trying. Are you attempting to suicide or something?

[GnKoichi]

I really want the lurkers to start participating more. I'm getting the feeling that all the scum are among them as the townies pick themselves apart...

Ditto. If we don't see a serious post from Tony, Mana, or Penguin by tomorrow morning, I think this would warrant a discussion.

[GnKoichi]

Charter: Good job. When the other lurkers post you can vote for them, too. This is really going to encourage a discussion. Also, one of the people you said I left off the lurker list I mentioned with a different abbreviation. The other gave his reason for voting for me and defended it a little while ago. I disagree (obviously) and it could have been more in depth, but it was posted recently.

Orange: We really have too much quoting going on. The lurkers, yourself included, need to let their own ideas be heard. Even if you agree with someone else 100%, you should say it in your own words. That's just my take on it.

[GnKoichi]

Okay, so, the tomorrow I mentioned in my last post is now today. Can we start a discussion about a lurker lynch? I'm not entirely sold on the idea myself, but I think a fire needs to be lit for certain people.

Here's my quick analysis:

Wall-E, Nameless, Charter, and Myself have been pretty active all around.

Plum was less active, but recently made some very good posts and really contributed.

Animorpherv is new and should be given more time to catch up. Not a lot, but some.

Orangepenguin is inactive, but recently gave a quick opinion. Give a little time to flesh this idea out?

Kiro has been moderately active.

TonyMontana has been less active and has given almost no analysis. He promised to do so quite a while ago and I don't think he ever delivered.

Stef made the same promise more recently, and should be given a little time.

Kmd... I have trouble viewing without bias. About as active as Kiro, but I think his penchant for quoting leads to less actual content in his posts.

Mana_Ku is probably about as active as Kiro and Kmd, but she isn't voting for anyone right now, and there's a lot of evidence to work with. I think we need to see a Plum style post from her to see where she stands.


So, if we WE'RE going to do a lurker-lynch, Tony looks like the best candidate to me. But OP, Ani, Stef, and Mana (and maybe Kmd) are close as well, pending what they do soon.

What are people's thought on actually doing a lurker-lynch at all, and where would you disagree with my analysis on who would be a target for this?

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: Wall-E

This is with extremely great reluctance, but you're way out of line, man. Either you're actually this volatile a player, which could end up hurting town even if you don't intend to, or you're scum who got really defensive when the tables started to turn against him.

Kmd: I never said you were inactive. My comment about you was in regards to the content of your posts, and I even admitted that might be biased since I'm already suspicious of you.

[GnKoichi]

My new theory:

Wall-E and Charter are scum. They've done a good job of distancing themselves from each other for most of the game. The key to this? Charter quickly switching his vote AWAY from Wall-E once there were five votes against him. Then, when I voted for Wall-E, putting the total back to five, he brings his vote back to ME! He's voted for the last two people to put a vote on Wall-E, and now makes a claim that Wall-E (who he was voting for two days ago) is town, without any evidence.

Let's knock Wall-E out, and then when he's shown to be Scum, we can take Charter tonight or tomorrow.

[GnKoichi]

To be honest, yeah, I'm tipping my hand a bit here, which is dangerous with all the protection at night. I think it's much more likely that we could make a case and lynch him the next day.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E: I assume you're referring to me. Charter is the one who hasn't given reasons for his last two votes. My reasons were made extremely clear in posts 285 & 289. They're on this page. They may not have been lengthy arguments. They were concise. Pretending they aren't there isn't helping yours or Charter's case.

[GnKoichi]

Something interesting happened here. My vote against Wall-E was meant as a warning. I still had a somewhat town read on him at that point. I really appreciated his sticking up for me a little bit earlier in the game. I wanted to help him shake off this mood he had gotten in. I was worried he was going to draw more votes and get himself knocked off. So I voted for him, hoping that him being L-2 would get him out of the funk he's been in since his case against Nameless failed.

Then Charter voted for me without any reasons. This was the second time in a row Charter had voted for someone who had just put a vote on Wall-E, and directly before that HE had been voting for Wall-E himself.

Suddenly it made sense. I still believe Charter is scum, and now he had revealed his partner. He and Wall-E had set themselves up as against each other over the issue of, well, me, very early. They voted for each other to seal the deal. Why would scum vote for each other? But it probably looked like a safe bet back then, since I was a good candidate for our first Lynch. Then, Wall-E got a little sloppy in his Nameless argument, and drew a few votes. Ani's vote put Wall-E at L-2, so Charter pulled his vote, and tried to throw a quick vote at Ani (perhaps to scare the new player away from voting that way). Then I put my 'scare' vote on Wall-E, and Charter was forced to try to return the focus to me.

I'd much rather take Charter out, but it seems like the group is more willing to take Wall-E right now, and I'm very confident that they are scum buddies now.

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: OP's vote, not Ani's. I got the order mixed up in my mind.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E: I didn't set a trap for you. I wanted to help wake you up. It seems that this still took place, as that was a much better post than you've been giving lately. I was hoping to do that to you, get you to post a good defense of yourself, and then pretend to be swayed and move my vote back to Charter. The end result of this would have been to get you to defend yourself against those who really do think you are scum.

But in the middle of that Charter tipped his hand. His actions normally don't make any sense, which is why I had a scum read on him before. Now, there was a theory that made most of his actions, especially recent ones, make perfect sense. He was your scum parter, trying to to distance himself from you early in the game, and then having to work a little too hard to protect you without being able to come up with a reason for that sudden "knight in shining armor" strategy.

It wasn't your actions that revealed you as scum. It was your partner's.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, are you trying to use something from an argument that you readily abandoned in order to defend yourself?

Or are you just trying to lay claim to a phrase that was coined centuries ago?

[GnKoichi]

What? Your brain used it first? I wasn't referencing your post by saying this. I was using the phrase to describe you. I was referencing the classical ideal of chivalry, not quoting you from earlier.

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: Used it to describe Charter, not you.

Mana has been prodded. Just letting y'all know.

[GnKoichi]

My vote on OP was because he popped in to do literally nothing but jump on the largest wagon. I hoped that by voting him (and not giving any reasons) he would say something more or get more active.

Irony is Ironic.

Seriously, my case against Charter is basically writing itself at this point. If people are willing, I'd really like to move the votes from Wall-E to Charter, but I'll accept taking Wall-E out because of my strong theory that they are scum buddies.

[GnKoichi]

Charter: So your first thought is to vote for him? You didn't even try to ask him. At least when I gave my vote to shake up Wall-E (a similar reason) I tried talking to him first. And what's your reasoning for suddenly finding Wall-E a townie just as everyone else begins to think otherwise? You've done nothing to actually defend my accusation; you've just made weak excuses.

Kmd: I think it's a strike against them, since it helps my theory. But it doesn't mean for sure, and would certainly require a reread on my part to make the theory complete or end up dismissing it. That would be the case if they flip town, as well, since there are scum reads on both of them independent of my idea that they are scum buddies.

[GnKoichi]

Plum: Clarification: I meant that there are other people who had a scum read on Wall-E before I made my argument, so it wouldn't be a stretch to find evidence against him if Charter flipped scum. If my theory of Charter/Wall-E were to fall apart, I would be much more wary of voting for Wall-E. Like I said, I'd rather take out Charter, because I have a much stronger read on him, but the group was already leaning towards Wall-E, and I really think that Charter made a mistake and revealed his partner.

Charter: So, telling me not to do this ahead of time isn't really a defense. To say that you "know" that Wall-E & I aren't scum buddies only has three implications:

1) You actually do know this because you are scum buddies with Wall-E.

2) You do not know this, you have a hunch like you said earlier, and you are again being misleading.

3) You have access to information that you should not have access to, and are a cheater.

So, which is it?

[GnKoichi]

Making a post in case Charter didn't see that we posted at the same time. Also, seriously guys, this is the end of my argument. No matter what he says in response, Charter either just admitted to being outright Scum or purposefully misleading, which was my case all along. Can we get everybody on the Lynch Charter train now?

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E has been anything but a lurker, OP has been nothing but a lurker. And my reason for finding Wall-E town is that you and him are not scumbuddies, which leaves you. Go ahead and call me out for just stating it, I'm not going to tell how I know this right now, and don't even try and push the "charter must know cause he's scum" crap. I'm actually getting really fed up with this game and a lot of the people letting you off the hook despite the mountain of evidence pointing towards you being scum.

Okay, how are we even still talking about this? This is not me twisting Charter's words. He is the one trying to make it clear now that Wall-E not being scum is not a hunch, but knowledge. Something that he knows, as in a fact. Not a strong feeling. Not a really good theory. HE is the one who says this. I just called him on it.

As was said before, this has only three implications:

1) He and Wall-E are scum, hence his "knowledge" of who is and isn't a scumbuddy.

2) He is lying, and this proves my point of how misleading he has been ALL GAME!

3) He has information he shouldn't have, making him a cheater (since he didn't get Mod killed for saying this, I assume he isn't).

Whatever you think about me, how is this not the easiest thing to vote for ever?

unvote, vote: Charter

[GnKoichi]

Kiro: I never left the camp of rather having Charter out than Wall-E. My initial vote for Wall-E may have been a bad idea, but I haven't seen anyone make a good argument against my Charter/Wall-E theory. Some people have said it's flawed, but no one has said how. I kept my vote on Wall-E because I heard nothing about other people being willing to switch to Charter, and I wanted to make sure one of the two scum got lynched. But with Charter's latest argument digging so deep a hole, I trust that he's the easier lynch now.

[GnKoichi]

Further Evidence for Charter/Wall-E: Now that I've made a very strong case against Charter, and those votes should start moving to him any time now, Wall-E pulls his vote off of Charter.

I don't mean to be arrogant, but is there anything that would make me wrong here? Isn't this the strongest scum argument we've seen all game? EVERYONE! Please throw your votes to Charter! He has almost admitted to being scum. Wall-E is almost certainly his partner, but even if that's wrong, Charter is the best Lynch, by far. No matter what you think about me, if you can't find a counter to my argument, please do the right thing and VOTE FOR CHARTER!

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, how are you voting for me? What is your theory in this? I posted a strong logical argument against Charter. You posted a sound effect. What are you doing?

[GnKoichi]

I am not arguing semantics. Charter is the one who changed his own words from "hunch" to "know". He even implied that he would have to defend against the very argument I made. I'm not twisting his words. He has not said I took what he said wrong. He has made no attempt to defend his words or say that I misunderstood.

HE ADMITTED TO BEING SCUM!

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: You can call me a newbie, but it reflects much more on the rest of you that when I make the best argument against Charter in this entire game, you send more votes at me.

And STILL no one has offered a counter argument. You can't just say I'm wrong and dismiss it.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless: That's not what "know" means, and I shouldn't be held accountable just because Charter used the wrong word.

Also, Charter still hasn't said that I interpreted him wrong, and even anticipated me giving this response. You are defending someone who makes no efforts to defend themselves. Please, do the right thing and switch your vote to him.

KMD: I got upset at Nameless's dismissal. It's an "almost" admission because the other option is that he is being purposefully misleading again, which has been my case against him all game, so it really is a scum tell either way.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, to imply that I'm arguing semantics because I am expecting people to use the actual meaning of words is ridiculous. If there were a different way he could have meant that, that would be semantics. But no, he either gave himself away or he used the wrong word. It's not my fault that I called him on it. But thank you for catching Kmd's inability to analyze my post.

Kiro, that's a pretty good argument. I am basing all of my voting on the idea that my Charter/Wall-E theory is correct. I still believe this to be true (did anyone else notice that Charter called on a suspicion of OP, and then Wall-E voted for him without any reasons of his own?). But I see your point. If you take my scumbuddies theory away, then what Wall-E does is heavier evidence against himself, and the same for Charter's own actions. I want to go with my gut and get Charter out, but Wall-E looks pretty damned in this light.

*sigh*

unvote, vote: Wall-E

[GnKoichi]

No, arguing semantics means you are arguing over what the meaning of a word is, trying to shift the meaning to help your case. Charter and I are using the same definition of the word. He made no arguments to say that I was misinterpreting him. He even anticipated my response, telling me not to bother without any good reasons not to, which means that he knew exactly what he was saying.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, that wasn't my argument and you know it. I never thought that Charter would knowingly claim scum. I was using the argument to show how misleading he was being YET AGAIN! But the harder I fight that battle, the more votes come my way. Don't think we're not watching for who's on this Charter Defense Brigade.

AND CHARTER STILL hasn't been able to justify that post. He's just pretending it never happened, because he has no excuse for how badly he played that bluff. He says he's got a suspicion on who's the real scum that borders on proof (using the word "know" twice), but he refuses to post it. He's as bad as Tony in terms of actual content. Charter may post more often, but he's added about as much real scumhunting to the game.

[GnKoichi]

EBWOP: Also, to say that your bad misinterpretation of my argument was just "sarcasm" isn't going to fly. I got called on that myself this game, so there's no way it's going to get you off the hook. Own up to a bad post.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, now your misinterpreting your OWN posts. I never said that you believed that Charter had done that. You said that I believed it, because you misunderstood my post before it. Both Nameless and I called you on it, because it was a CLEAR misunderstanding that you tried to use against me to make my position look even worse. If you meant that statement sarcastically, it means that you DIDN'T believe the accusation you were making against me, so why make it? You tried to back peddle out of this one, but you're running out of room before the cliff.

[GnKoichi]

Yeah, except that's not what Nameless and I called you on, and you just repeated the mistake again. I never said Charter was both claiming scum and being misleading, I said he was doing ONE OF THOSE TWO THINGS! I said it in three separate posts, and two of those posts had them in a numerical list of options. How you made this mistake, confused what the mistake was, and then repeated it a page later is beyond me. You are either incapable of making any kind of post analysis OR you are continuing your strategy from earlier in the game which is to take my words and twist them to make me look bad. Also, both times you did it was in defense of Charter. Careful there.

[GnKoichi]

Alright, jesus, this isn't going well at all.

I've tried to do the scumhunting that everyone was calling for earlier in the game, but the harder I try, to he more of a scum vibe I seem to give off to everyone. I don't want to put town in the hole day 1 and have you lynch me just because I've been so vocal. I had opinions. I shared them. I don't think I've been so terrible even though I may be wrong. I don't think I've been any more insistent the some other posters (Charter or Nameless for example), and I think I've posted more evidence than most. You can disagree, fine, but I'm working harder to find the scum in this game than anyone.

But in doing so, I haven't put any effort into defending myself. I made this clear. Anyone would try to be defensive, scum or town, because no one wants to get lynched. But now I've still got two people who are voting for me for something that I did on page three!!! So, before I let this day end with me in a noose, down one town, I'd like to give people a chance to ask me specific questions about my actions, in regards to why you are voting for me. I'll answer them. I'll defend myself.

I don't think we should let this day end before we hear these questions from at least Kmd and Stef, and I think we should also hear these "heavy" suspicions that Charter doesn't want to let out of the bag yet. Finally, I think we need a Plum-length post from Tony, Mana, OP, and Ani. Does that sound fair?

[GnKoichi]

Also, I want to start that process by answering Plum's question, which I had before mistaken as a question of my general day 2 theory.

Why am I voting for Wall-E, independent of my theory connecting him to Charter?

His behavior degenerated extremely quickly when votes started to come his way. As was said by me before, this either makes him scum who felt the mob coming, or an extremely volatile player who could end up hurting the town either way.

There are plenty of WIFOMy reasons as well (coming to my defense when that was an unpopular thing to do, giving up his argument against Nameless & Charter a little too quickly when it began to weaken, 'admitting' that he just isn't trying very hard this game). All together, it doesn't seem like he's done much good for us. He participate heavily in the set up portion of the game, then called the portion useless and called for more scumhunting, but then he gave that up after one attempt. He doesn't seem to have any cohesive strategy.

So, those two things. Loose cannon. No direction.

[GnKoichi]

Just going through and looking for other loose questions that have been directed at me lately:

In regards to EVERYONE and my recent argument against Charter and the word "know". Everyone seems to be ignoring his original post, which I will post again here.

Wall-E has been anything but a lurker, OP has been nothing but a lurker. And my reason for finding Wall-E town is that you and him are not scumbuddies, which leaves you. Go ahead and call me out for just stating it, I'm not going to tell how I know this right now, and don't even try and push the "charter must know cause he's scum" crap. I'm actually getting really fed up with this game and a lot of the people letting you off the hook despite the mountain of evidence pointing towards you being scum.

He was the first one to change the argument from a hunch to a matter of "know"ing. I just called him on it. And he still hasn't refuted this claim. Even if all he meant was that he has an extremely strong feeling based on a lot of good reasons that are good enough for me to completely 180 my opinion on Wall-E, he still hasn't posted that information. A little bit after this post he said:

Also, I want to post my suspicions of who the scum and SK are. Sooo tempting (not gonna do it now cause I don't want to open a whole new can of worms).

Again he references his information or theory. He holds it over our heads. Why not just say it? The only reason he would have to not post it is that then we can try to refute it. I think we need to hear it.

Since nobody else actually thinks that Charter is being misleading in this series of quotes, I'll drop it. But I think we can all agree that Charter is withhold information that the group should hear. He has been dodging pretty much all questions, as many others have noted.

---

GnK explained he voted Wall-E to L-2 saying that it was a warning, but he still had a bit of a town read on him. What kind of an action is that? It is not your job to help "wake up Wall-E" and did you think it was going to help him by actually voting him and giving him one more person he has to convince? That explanation makes no sense from a pro-Town viewpoint. If you had a slight Town read on him, what were you going to do if Wall-E was pushed to L-1? Pretend to be swayed extra quick and unvote him before he gets hammered?

Yes, that was my plan. It wasn't a great one, but this is a tough question of "Pro-Town" ideas from someone who suggest we not protect tonight. I know it wasn't my job to do this, but I felt a small obligation to Wall-E after he stood up for me earlier in the game. For anyone else, even if I really believed they were town, I wouldn't have bothered. I was trying to return a favor. It didn't quite play out that way, but that's how Day 1 seems to go.

---

Charter has done several dubious things but what you are actually pushing on him amounts to incredibly exaggerated semantics. I pointed this out nicely, and you repeat the craplogic louder.

I repeated it because you were dismissive. If you had offered an actual counterpoint, one that included a good reason for Charter's behavior, I would have had something new to respond to. I can't counter an argument that you don't make.

You yourself said that Wall-E is the biggest threat and that Charter and I are likely both town and we've been allowed by a lurking scum team to tear each other apart. What happened to change that?

---

I think that covers any questions of me from the last three pages. Anything I missed?

[GnKoichi]

Really? Pretty sure I've said GK and given reasons. I've said I think you are too, but I don't have time to make a giant case against you now.

Just to clarify Charter, I believe the information Kiro and Myself (along with several others) are asking for is the scum theory you allude to in posts 318 & 329.

[GnKoichi]

Care to elaborate?

[GnKoichi]

Unvote: Wall-E
Vote: Charter

If this exchange doesn't convince anyone else to vote for Charter, you might as well vote me out.

[GnKoichi]

That's all for now since most of GnK's posts simply make my brain hurt. That's why i like my damn vote and i'd be surprised if some1 could top him and make me vote otherwise.. or.. because it would be irrational of me otherwise: GnK, If you can clean up your act and start reading other games to get a feel of how the game is played and start thinking more about the game as a whole rather than just posting things that YOU, without any experience, THINK are SOLID and T HE MOST RATIONAL cases and tells and IF you stop telling people who to vote and what to do just because you "know you are right" and IF you will be able to convince me that you are less scummy than others than then i'll consider you might be helpful to the town and that we have better targets for today's lynch.

This was my attempt in posts 372-374. I'm trying to clean up my act, drop my bad arguments while not ignoring the fact that I did them. I've answered all questions in relation to why I did them in the first place, but now I'm ready to let go of those ideas that I pushed too hard. In terms of who looks scummier, please consider Charter's refusal to post his theory that took place over the last three pages.

Dude, I posted last like a day ago, chill out. I have a life. Why compare me only to Tony?

He was just the first one to pop into my mind. And seriously, you're the last one to bring up unanswered questions. Myself, Kiro, and Nameless have all asked you flat out. Just post the theory, dude.

[GnKoichi]

Also, I want to post my suspicions of who the scum and SK are. Sooo tempting (not gonna do it now cause I don't want to open a whole new can of worms).

See, this is why I didn't want to state my suspicions. Now I have to defend them. They're my guesses. What makes you SK? I think you're playing like a SK. I don't have time to do four cases at once, not sure I even have time to do two. That's why I'm just focusing on GK, if someone (by divine intervention) overtakes him as scummiest, I'll have to put more effort in I suppose, but until then, fine with the GK lynch.

Which is it? You don't want to, or you don't have time? Also, EVERYONE has to defend their ideas. I've been doing it more than ANYONE! I was never let off the hook. Not letting you off either.

[GnKoichi]

Sorry Charter. I don't think anyone's going to buy that. You've been one of the most active posters all game. You've spent time arguing with me about not having time. Why not put that energy into giving the people what they want?

[GnKoichi]

Actually Charter, you are. You cited those suspicions as your reason for taking your vote off of Wall-E when you put it back on me. Here:

My reason for finding Wall-E town is that you and him are not scumbuddies, which leaves you.

This is part of the suspicion which you first claimed to "know". When I called you on it, everyone attacked me, but now you admit that you were just overstating (another form of being misleading, my primary charge against you). Now you have said what your suspicion is, but refuse to explain it even after FIVE people have asked you to (Myself, Kiro, Nameless, Stef, and Kmd). Finally, you say you aren't even using the rest of your suspicions, though you claimed it was your reason for taking your vote off of Wall-E earlier.

So we've come full circle. You've contradicted yourself and admitted to being misleading. Can people stop attacking me for being against you now?

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, you haven't let me off the hook for ANYTHING this game. Why are you so quick to forgive and defend Charter?

You're misusing the term Strawman. This isn't Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice. You're using a very narrow definition of misleading as well. But we've ended the semantics argument.

Even if being misleading and purposefully overstating are two different things, it doesn't change the part of that post where I caught Charter in a flat out contradiction. He says he isn't basing any of his current actions on his suspicions of anyone else, except that's the EXACT reason he gave for taking his vote off of Wall-E "I know who the scum team is, and Wall-E isn't on it".

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E: He gave them. He said that you were town because he had figure out who has on the scum team. I'm not putting words in his mouth. He says it here:

And my reason for finding Wall-E town is that you and him are not scumbuddies, which leaves you. Go ahead and call me out for just stating it, I'm not going to tell how I know this right now, and don't even try and push the "charter must know cause he's scum" crap. I'm actually getting really fed up with this game and a lot of the people letting you off the hook despite the mountain of evidence pointing towards you being scum.

And then after three people asked him for it, finally posted that theory here:

Scum: GK, Kiro, animorph. SK: Kmd.

Yet, now with you there are a total of SIX people asking for an explanation of these suspicions. He has made two reasons not to give those:

I didn't want to because I don't have time.

I'm not trying to act on my other suspicions.

The first excuse is easily a lie. He's made EIGHT posts today. He could have just made ONE and have it be the one everyone's asking for. He refuses, because he doesn't want to have to defend himself (another thing that he himself said, not my words).

The second excuse is also a lie, as shown in my posts #398 and #400.

I know that I've had not so great reasons for being against Charter before, but please consider all of this!

[GnKoichi]

Yet another overstatement by me.

Except that doesn't excuse the fact that you used this overstatement as the justification for your actions, and then denied doing so later.

Whatever, if you guys actually lynch me you're incredibly dumb... Don't listen to anything GK says.

Another brilliant counterpoint.

Wait, is that an admission to lying?

Well, obviously Charter will say it wasn't, but you should judge for yourself. At the very least, it's yet another post without giving any of the information we asked for, and he does nothing to dispel the lie I claim to have caught him in, so perhaps you could call it an admission by omission.

[GnKoichi]

Stef, I'd personally like to know how you felt about my posts #372-374, since your last analysis post of myself and charter didn't seem to take it into account, but rather focused on the failed arguments that those later posts attempted to rectify.

I'd also like to know what you think of my argument against Charter in posts 398 and 403.

[GnKoichi]

Plum, you say there is a stronger case against Charter than against Wall-E. You've left your vote on me. Why do you think there is a stronger case against me than against Charter? What do you believe I have done that is scummier than what Charter has in the last few pages? Do you have a defense for Charter, or do you agree with my analysis in Post #403?

[GnKoichi]

Kiro, you mentioned that you were going to base your potential vote on Charter's response to your questions. Does this vote against Ani mean that you think he adequately defending himself by saying "I would kill people who I don't find scummy" and "I felt like I was going to get Lynched, so I gave up"?

[GnKoichi]

Kiro, I think Charter is just playing it too safe now. After being caught in two lies already, he would have to be a terrible player to change his story again. Obviously, you're free to do what you want, but going by your "He didn't lie to save himself" criterion, I'd say his previous lies are damning enough. Especially when coupled with his insults towards anyone who either believes I'm right or doesn't listen to him.

Charter also has a list of SEVEN scum now. Myself, Kmd, OP, Tony, Stef, Kiro, and Ani. Clearly he's just lashing out.

[GnKoichi]

Overall, he falls into the same category as OP, Tony, and Mana, who just post too infrequently to judge. If there were one of them, it would be easier to say to go after them. With four, how do we choose one to target just for lurking? I think this is something that will hurt them in the long run, but not something we can deal with now.

As for his recent comments, at least he's answering questions. That's more than we could say for most lurkers.

This doesn't change the fact that I think ALL lurkers should post things with more content and analysis. When Mana was active, she at least made comprehensive posts, trying to cover everything that happened. Plum does something similar, though more often and even more comprehensive, so she's clear in my mind. I think she's a good example for what the others should aspire to.

[GnKoichi]

I wouldn't have a problem with those two votes, because two votes against a lurker who hasn't really given comprehensive reasons for their posts seems reasonable. Except there are at least two lurkers who have done LESS and there's Charter who has done WORSE.

If you take those votes out of the context of this game, I think they're fine.

Considering he's only been in for about half the game, having a small number of posts is somewhat understandable. He said he doesn't like to be overly wordy (I think he could stand to be a bit more vocal) but this makes sense with what Wall-E said recently. There have been a lot of vocal scumhunters in this game. With Myself, You, Wall-E, Charter, and Nameless, it's easy to take a back seat. I think Stef, Kmd, and Plum have found somewhat of balance. I think OP, Tony, Mana, and Ani could all do more. I think Tony and OP have probably done less in terms of time played : posts made, but that's just a hunch.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your last post. Are you suggesting we let Charter off the hook because he claimed doc?

[GnKoichi]

AH! That makes a lot more sense. Speaking of which Stef, I asked you a while ago what you thought about the latest case against Charter. The lying and such. Maybe it's just my late night brain, but did you ever answer?

[GnKoichi]

Charter, just a suggestion, why don't you stick to evidence within the game we're playing. Even if you convinced everyone that Stef has lurked in the past, it wouldn't make me change my mind about how he's playing this game. Just like you saying you've lied before hasn't made anyone forgive you for lying now. And to claim that certain people within this game represent "the general mafia community" and others don't is extremely elitist.

Finally, how do you justify having a scum list seven players long?

[GnKoichi]

Scum: GK, Kiro, animorph. SK: Kmd.

People I would kill tonight, in order (GK, OP, Tony)
GK's head is on so backwards, keeping him alive regardless of role will be detrimental.
OP and Tony, both lurk horribly, and are slightly more scummy than Stef in my opinion.

You have said that you don't think OP, Tony, and Stef are the SCUMMIEST, but your wording has described all of them as SCUMMY. You're even pursuing that argument now, trying to show how Stef is acting scummy, when he was the one who you described as LEAST scummy out of the seven.

[GnKoichi]

Charter, are you saying now that you don't think OP, Tony, and Stef are Scum? If so, why would you kill them when you have four players who you DO think are Scum?

[GnKoichi]

Charter, that doesn't answer my question, do you are do you not think OP, Tony, and Stef are scum? You've given some very diplomatic answers to this. I want a straight yes or no.

[GnKoichi]

And to answer yours, you called Stef "lurkerscum" in post #445 and said that OP and Tony are scummier than Stef in one of the quotes from you I just gave. If Stef is scum, than anyone scummier than him must also be scum, right?

[GnKoichi]

Ironic coming from lurkerscum. At least I post suspicions so people know where I stand.

There is nothing in that quote referencing another game. You don't start talking about that until a page later. Why would anyone assume you are talking about his actions in another game? They wouldn't, because it's not how you meant it when you said it. I'd say this is close to lie #3 for you Charter.

Finally, you've said that you will kill Tony and OP for lurking, just in case they are scum and trying to get a free ride. I didn't ignore that post as you implied. My question is: How can you justify a lurker kill when YOU YOURSELF have four people you consider to be actual SCUM.

[GnKoichi]

Charter, I answered your question. You just quoted it a post ago. If you want to try to spin it like it's not enough evidence, that's your play. But don't pretend I didn't even answer.

[GnKoichi]

Charter, you do not use the word "scum" to describe seven people. You use it to describe five, as I've shown. You also describe two people as "scummier" than one of those "scum", which seems to follow logically that you consider them scum as well. Also, those two in question, you've said you would NK them if you had the chance, so if nothing else, you're treating them like you think they are scum. Actions speak louder than words, and all that.

[GnKoichi]

I think the "back and forth" is over. I've made all the points I care to, and Charter seems to be out of excuses. He conveniently decide to "ignore" me when I asked him a direct question, and when I made my argument about Scumnificent Seven clear, he simply stopped posting.

I agree that Ani and the other Lurkers have to step up their game, but I really feel that those are issues for Day 2 at this point.

[GnKoichi]

I'm pushing hard for the Charter lynch because I think being caught in the three or four lies that Charter has is much worse than Lurking. I also think it's extremely strange that there is all this focus on Ani when there are three other lurkers who are posting even less than he is. You can say my defense of him is hint of a scum pair, but honestly if Charter were not so suspicious, I would be voting for a Lurker right now as well. Only, I honestly don't see how Ani giving brief answers is worse than OP, Mana, and Tony giving no answers at all.

[GnKoichi]

Plum & Kiro, you both question the Seven Player Scum list on the same page that I gave a pretty comprehensive analysis of it. What parts are unclear? Charter flat out called five people scum, and has described two players as "scummier" than one of those five, in addition to saying he would night kill those two players if he had the chance. I don't think he's being contradictory by saying there are seven scum. Obviously he knows there are only four. I think this shows that since he's been put on the defensive, he's just been lashing out at anyone he can. He says there there are a lot of scum players on the bandwagon to vote him, but some of those players weren't on his list until AFTER they voted for him. I think it's more of an OMGUS defense against anyone who seemed to believe me or question him.

[GnKoichi]

You didn't just lie about being lazy. You also lied about the reasons you gave for one of your actions. When I called you on it, you defended yourself by saying it was just part of another lie. Let me break it down:

You say "I know who the scum team is, and Wall-E isn't on it, so I'm taking my vote off of Wall-E"

You get some pressure for defending your scum choices.

You say "I don't have to defend my ideas because I'm not acting on them"

I point out how you did when you said Wall-E wasn't scum and took your vote off him.

You say "Well, obviously I was lying back then"

If my accusation is that you're misleading, what kind of defense is it to say that you've just been misleading?

Also, what kind of defense is "town is lazier than scum"? You've accused several people of being scummy because they don't post very often!

[GnKoichi]

To those who doubt:

It would be pointless for scum to admit to lying as easily as I did, they would have tried to weasel their way out. Of course all this is WIFOM, but I think if you guys actually use your brains you'll realize it's true.

This is completely null. No one should admit to lying as easily as you did. The only reason I can think of is that you saw that I had caught you in two lies, so instead of denying it and making yourself look worse (something you admit to worrying about in your defenses) you decide to admit it with the plan of making this post later to try to say "Hey, obviously I'm not scum! I admitted to a mistake that makes me look scummy!"

Also, could you please try to make a post where you don't insult the intelligence of the players who agree with me?

[GnKoichi]

Then freaking lynch me already.

Dude, we're trying.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, what are you talking about? What did Charter do that changed your mind?

[GnKoichi]

I'm not really sure how to defend myself at this point. I've been doing the scumhunting that everyone was calling for earlier. No one has really pointed out a good argument against the lying Charter has done. Some people have questioned how it would be helpful for scum to lie as Charter has. That seems like a silly question. It seems any misdirection is only beneficial to scum. They know who we are, we don't know who they are. Any informations is helpful to town. Any lies would thus seem helpful to scum.

Nameless, my point about the seven scum and Charter lashing out are one and the same. I wasn't trying to say that Charters attacks are meaningless. His posts with actual analysis have been the one's I've tried to take seriously. The lynchpin of this argument is that he made four scum predictions with NO REASONS. He refused to give any reasons, and made two lies to avoid having to back up his opinions. My analysis: He is scum, trying to make people look at people who are not scum. He's trying to protect his team by pointing out another potential team (or several, as he's had different theories since then). But he's not planning it through very well. He doesn't have legitimate reasons for those he points out as scum. This is why he lied to avoid giving his thought process.

Since then, he changed his mind saying that pretty much anyone who voted for him must also be scum (or scummy, whatever. I hate the semantics arguments, too, and also hate that I end up having to defend my ideas on that kind of basis). This is the lashing out I was talking about. He's sending baseless scum calls against anyone who votes for him, not to mention the tried and true strategy of continuing to insult other players who don't agree with him.

Lastly, I think his whole defeatest thing is a game. I almost want to believe him. I want to say, wow, scum really wouldn't do that. Scum would fight to the bitter end. Then I remember, I believed him when he said he was too lazy to give his reasons. Then he proved himself a liar (and even later admitted to this lie). I also believed him when he said he wasn't using his suspicions as the basis for his actions, until I remembered the post about Wall-E. I really think Charter has lost the right to be believed at this point. He needs to go.

And Wall-E, Mirth misspelled my name a LONG time ago, I think before any of the Charter/Me feud began. So I don't think your theory holds water. Please bring your vote back. I need you on this.

[GnKoichi]

You don't always have to say it flat out, no. But when the majority of the other players ask for your reasons, and you give lies instead, that looks pretty scummy.

[GnKoichi]

If I were lynched, I would hope that people would analyze the voting patterns of those who went after me, especially Charter, Nameless, and Plum, since they've given the most "reasons" for wanting me gone. If you all find people to be blameless, thinking that in retrospect they had a good argument, I'd say let it go. Honest mistake. If it seems like something more, I think that should be the basis of your next move. I know that the scum team knows I'm town, so I wouldn't be surprised if you find a common thread in some of the votes against me.

Bigger than that, however, I would want all the lurkers, as well as our new player, to give a FULL analysis post, detailing their reads on all other players. I'd rather that happen today, but I'd settle for it on Day 2.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, your catching-up analysis post seems to leave out the biggest thing that happened while you were gone: Charter's lies. How do you feel about posts #398, #400, #403, and #476. Those posts detail the three flat out lies Charter has made. What do you think about this?

I'm worried at this point that I have become my own counter-point. I know I acted somewhat rashly at the beginning of the day, and my original reasons for Charter were weak. But I think I lucked out in that focus on Charter, because it ended up revealing those lies. If you just look at the last third of the game, there's a really strong case against him, and I hope it doesn't look weaker just because I'm the one who pointed it out.

[GnKoichi]

Regarding #398 to #403, Charter does contradict himself once or twice but not on anything really important, and he admits to the fact even when eg. his vote change could be easily justified as acting on one suspicion of GK rather than unvoting on the basis of noninclusion of his other suspicious (this should be obvious, yet the other side of the argument is mostly ignored), then taking into account the number of people who suddenly jump on his bandwagon over something that's not even deliberately malicious or directly beneficial to the scum ... Instinct, reasoning and meta experience all tell me Charter is unlikely to be mafia here.

It's not about what Charter could have been doing. It's about what he SAID he was doing. He flat out lied about his intentions. He also keeps hiding the fact that he was caught in that lie, instead continually saying he "lied about being lazy". He did that as well, but it wasn't to hide his laziness, it was to hide BEHIND laziness to avoid backing up a bad attempt to throw us off the scum trail. Weren't you one of the people who asked him for his reasons? Why give up so easily?

People suddenly attacking Charter when I make a strong case against him does not make Charter look innocent. Even if the lurkers didn't post their reasons, they all came out of the woodwork as a part of this argument. I think their motives were clear (though I would have preferred a little help in building the case once they agreed).

Also, you complain about one side of the argument being ignored, then you say Charter was "not even deliberately malicious". Isn't that just ignoring

my

side?

Wall-E, I don't believe for one second that you and Charter are scum together at this point. You would have pulled your vote far earlier if that were true. But your voting makes no sense now. It's like voting for Nader. No lurker is going out this round unless they make a HUGE mistake. I need your help. You casting a vote for anyone but Charter is essentially casting a vote against me.

Also, Stef and Kmd, I know you had doubts about me in the past, but you've both shown an interest in seeing Charter brought down. This is the time. Please bring your votes back and we can deal with the lurkers Day 2!

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, what are referring to?

[GnKoichi]

Honestly, Stef, it's a little self preservation on my end. With a new player, I could easily be L-1 soon. You may feel like waiting, but others may not, and then we miss our chance.

[GnKoichi]

Also, agreeing with an argument isn't ignoring the other side. I don't think Charter has been deliberately malicious, but I still mention the possibility. Did ANYBODY even mention the point that technically some of Charter's contradictions weren't?

Except ignoring the other side is exactly what you accused people of who agreed with me. You're a hypocrite if you think it doesn't apply to you. Why would anyone try to defend Charter if they thought my analysis was correct, ESPECIALLY when Charter admitted to lying! The idea you gave of why Charter might have switched his vote without using his other suspicions as reasoning are nice, except that's not what Charter said he did. He lied. I've quoted the posts. You can question what he was thinking, but what he

said

is a cold hard fact.

At this point I have to agree with Tony that you've defended Charter beyond what would be considered reasonable. Charter/Nameless team seems far too likely.

See now, this is what we need more of. Meaningless dramatics

It's not dramatics, it's voting theory. If there is a vote between multiple candidates, but it's likely only two really have a chance of winning (like in the presidential election) voting for a third party is really the same as casting a vote AGAINST the person you would have voted for otherwise. When Wall-E pulled his vote from Charter, he essentially cast a vote against me. I'm not being dramatic, but that's the math of this situation. If one of the lurkers were suddenly suspicious enough to draw votes from both of us, that would be a different story, but right now it's likely either Charter or I are going to be lynched tonight.

Well.. i've made my opinion regarding you GNK quite clear some time ago and that hasn't changed. You are a newbie and you belonged in a newbie game before joining this one. You continue to play poorly imo.

That's why you're voting for me? I didn't want to have to use this, but I didn't think anyone was still holding it against me. I signed up for a Newbie game like two weeks before this one. But there was a problem with the Newbie queue. That game still didn't start until about a week ago. Charter can back me up on this, since he's in the same game (though the waiting list for ICs might be different, at the very least he would have seen that the game took forever to begin). I thought the waiting would be about the same, so that by the time this game started, I would have a few weeks in the newbie game under my belt. If I knew that my lack of experience would have derailed the first have of the day like this, I wouldn't have signed up. But I think since about the midpoint I've played much better. I've built better arguments with strong evidence, and I hope people can look past my earlier mistakes and look just at what I'm saying about Charter's lies!

[GnKoichi]

Kiro: I didn't just say those three. I said people should look at how everyone voted for me, how they behaved around that vote. I mentioned those three specifically because I felt they had been the most single minded in their analysis of me. You, Kmd, and others have seemed more open to both sides. Even if you still end up giving me a hard time, you also tend to hear me out. I don't know that Charter, Nameless, or Plum really have any care to hear the argument I'm making. This is just off the top of my head. If they can show a post where they took me seriously, I might back off. But overall, you're right. I've had a lot of focus on Charter. I've been trying to fit in a re-read to look at others, but there's a lot to go over. I'm hoping to finish before the day is done.

Stef: Sorry, I forgot you were a no vote right now. I meant to question why you're still suspicious of me.

[GnKoichi]

Jesus, I really hate to do this.

Unvote

I've managed to convince myself through re-reading that Charter isn't scum, just a really bad player. I've looked over my own arguments against him, and even I have to admit that I stretched those ideas. Hell yes, he's been misleading, and it's possible he did that to cover up some scummy behavior or throw off the town. But the more I read the more it feels like he's just not playing very well.

Crap.

[GnKoichi]

I've been trying to fit in a re-read to look at others, but there's a lot to go over. I'm hoping to finish before the day is done.

[GnKoichi]

So, I just finished my re-read. I'm going to post all the notes I took. PLEASE NOTE: These are not meant to be complete. I just wrote down what I noticed. If you feel you were misrepresented, I'm sorry. I couldn't possibly comment on everything. This has also been very educational for me. I've been able to see where I went wrong, when I pushed too hard, and how I managed to turn the best players against me (by giving them some really good reasons to vote for me... who knew?) when I was really just trying to help.

There is no analysis of the two dropped players, myself, or our newest addition, for obvious reasons.


charter
Random Stage: Votes Nameless
Planning Stage: Idea of protection ring. Quickly drops it of his own accord. Discusses vig claiming with Kmd. Questions and helps build Wall-E’s target claim idea.
Regular Game: Votes GnK for a lot of reasons. Denies math. Insults. Claims Doc. Says he Claimed because someone asked him, except his Claim predated that. Tries to defend himself with previous acts of lying. Claims GnK/Kiro scumbuddies. Votes Wall-E for ignoring Nameless’s posts. Votes OP for not having his own reasons. The whole lying about his Scum theory fiasco begins. Insults. Lies. More Insults. More Lies. Even More Insults. Claims he would NK people (not on his scum list) for lurking. Tries to attack Stef for what he did in another game. Asks to be lynched.


orangepenguin
Total Posts: 16
Random Stage: Votes Kiro
Regular Game: Starts catching up after being away for a weekend. Says Charter lying is Anti-Town. Calls Nameless’s bluff on the lurker vote. Votes Wall-E, citing Nameless’s reasons. Votes Charter. Feels outnumbered. Doesn’t want to give info on all players. Is upset his lack of contributions have gone unappreciated.


Stef
Random Stage: Votes KMD
Planning Stage: Against Vig claiming. Votes GnK for the No Lynch idea. Says that I based my argument on Charter’s word, and that he may be scum trying to mislead us. When I take this into consideration and say that I think Charter did act strangely in regards to the No Lynch, Stef attacks me for that, asking why I would find Charter suspicious and not himself. Questions Nameless for defending me. Says the I’m derailing the discussion after I’ve dropped the point.
Regular Game: Questions Kmd & Ani’s positions. Doesn’t like answer, Votes Ani. Votes Charter for lies, etc. Unvote. Questions Tony.


TonyMontana
Total Posts: 14
Random Stage: Votes Nameless
Regular Game: Misses the setup stage, but still makes a post about his “scenarios”. Accompanied by a nonsense picture, he explains absolutely nothing except that he is bored at work. Questions Wall-E and OP. Claims Nameless isn’t contributing (WTF!?). Claims work life is too busy to post. Unvotes. Votes Charter for lies and insults. Demands answers from Wall-E. Questions Nameless. Says he would vote Wall-E if there were more support.


Nameless
Random Stage: Votes Charter
Planning Stage: Against claiming to avoid Night Kills. Points out that Stef is attacking me.
Regular Game: Votes Kiro for No Doc idea. Question’s Wall-E’s vote of Charter. Votes Wall-E for not giving reasons for vote on Charter. Says he’ll vote a lurker the next RL day if they don’t post. Pressures GnK for continuing the Charter attack. Misquotes to build his case. Sarcasm to point out flaws in Charter and Stef’s contributions. Proposes Lurker lynch again; gives same 24 hour deadline. Votes GnK for bad argument against Charter. “Damn it people, you can't ALL be scum.” Unvotes. Vote GnK for many many reasons.


animorpherv1
Total Posts: 13
Regular Game: Quick vote against Wall-E for something from the setup stage. Misread, realizes mistake. Votes Charter. Short explination of his recent posts. Claims he will vote GnK with no reasons stated.


Kmd4390
Random Stage: Votes Stef, Wall-E
Planning Stage: Idea of vigs claiming. Quickly drops it of his own accord. Votes GnK for the No Lynch idea.
Regular Game: Misquotes GnK. Agrees with Stef that I’m derailing the game after my point has been dropped. Misquotes Wall-E. Large argument based on misunderstanding. Starts a reread. Passes chance to end the day by killing Charter. Questions Tony.


Wall-E
Random Stage: Votes Stef, Charter
Planning Stage: Idea of claiming targets on Day 2. Defends this idea to Kiro. Points out how scummy his own idea is. Denounces Vig claiming.
Regular Game: Defends GnK. Votes Charter, cites GnK’s reasons. Begins analysis of Charter & Nameless. Calls self a hypocrite. Idea deflates quickly when he finds one peice of evidence was a misread. Claims laziness. Insults. More Insults. Votes OP for lurking. Votes Charter for lies. Votes OP for lack of reasons. Insults. Unvote. Claim that GnK & Charter are both town because of a mispelled word from a long time ago. Votes OP for lurking.


Plum
Planning Stage: Says there’s no good plan for Day 1. Makes a good argument against the No Lynch idea, albeit well after the point has been dropped.
Regular Game: Question’s Wall-E’s vote of Charter. Points out Nameless’s misread of a Charter statement. Quick analysis against Stef. Very good analysis followed by a Vote: Wall-E. Posts something in another language (WTF!?). Against a lurker lynch. Votes GnK for bad argument against Charter. Questions Ani and OP. Questions Charter.


Kiro
Random Stage: Votes Stef
Planning Stage: Says there’s no good plan for Day 1. Against No Lynch idea, but willing to hear it out. Suggests no protection on Night 1. Drops this idea, but only because other people don’t agree.
Regular Game: Votes Tony for lurking when OP was even less active. Votes GnK for the Wall-E vote thing. Unvotes, but hesitantly. Questions Charter, finds his answer acceptable at the least. Votes Ani for lurking. Questions GnK. Votes GnK for pushing too hard against Charter.


FINAL THOUGHTS:

Nameless, Plum, and Kiro are probably the best players in this game, in terms of analysis and logical voting.

Charter and Wall-E have been very difficult to read. They are either bad players or they have tried to make everyone think that in order to protect their mistakes.

Ani, OP, and Tony are just unhelpful. This is hard for me to say, since they could easily finish me off right now. But the biggest thing here is Tony trying to call out other players. He questioned the contributions of some of the better players, which makes him the biggest hypocrite in the game. So:

Vote: Tony

[GnKoichi]

unvote, vote: orangepenguin

I don't know if you could call this an OMGUS vote, since you seem really unhappy to be voting me. Seriously, if you think there are two better lynches, don't vote for me.

Also, if you have a plan on how to play better, start now. That's what I'm doing.

[GnKoichi]

That's okay Nameless. While going over my own posts, I knew that not everyone would believe that I'm turning over a new leaf. I can only prove that with my future actions. I didn't think this was going to suddenly get everyone to turn the other way. I just had a realization about how I was playing and I wanted to fix it right away.

Which is why I have my vote on OP. It's not so much about him voting for me, or that he's doing so when he says there are two people he'd rather lynch. It's really about him saying that he knew how to play better, but that he was going to wait until Day 2. Why wait? He may have posted more often in the last few pages, but I don't think he's added much to the conversation; certainly not enough to make me change my mind about him overall.

[GnKoichi]

V/LA until Saturday, most likely.

[GnKoichi]

If said analysis existed, even if only in OP's head, why feel so unconfident as to do what OP did, lurklurlurk and always with an excuse. Scum don't read the thread. Scum just post whatever. They don't worry about lynching not-scum.

However.

I feel there is room for explaination, and so I will not vote OP until he addresses this post.

First of all, thank you Nameless for pointing out the first half. Holy God, what are you talking about, Wall-E?

Secondly, if you want to pressure OP to answer you, why take your vote off? It's like that Monty Python sketch, where the gangsters threatened to beat people up if they paid them protection money, then threaten NOT to beat them up if they DON'T pay them. You need the "other other plan", where you threaten to beat him up, unless he pays you. Right now, OP could choose to not answer, and by your statement, you wouldn't vote for him. Even if you catch on to this later, at the very least you gave him more time.

[GnKoichi]

Ani & Tony: What are your thought on OP? From the few posts over the last three pages, you seem to agree with the argument against him. However, no votes have been cast. Please be specific in what you agree with and what is holding back your vote.

I'd be posting more if I understood this moar, so that's what I'm trying to do. By me not posting, I'm sorry about that., it's just me trying to make sense of this. I'll try to post more often, promise.

Ani, if you don't understand something, ask questions. At least then we know what you're thinking about. Trying to make sense of things isn't an excuse to post very little. The better players have worked out their ideas through posting. Please follow their example.

[GnKoichi]

which [OP] thought was the hammer

Allegedly.

...

Hasn't OP admitted this several times? He explained exactly what he was thinking (that it was six to hammer), but later realized his mistake.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, what else could OP have been thinking when he said he was thought he was hammering me other than "I think I'm hammering him"? What in his posts leads you to believe he isn't being truthful on this point?

[GnKoichi]

I don't think so. Any townie points he thought he would gain by that would be canceled out by all the scummy things he's said in the posts surrounding it. But I suppose that's a semi-plausible theory. Obviously I know that it's not true, since I know that I'm not scum, but you don't know that, and I would probably say the same thing if I were scum.

However, since this line of thinking leads to one more person who thinks OP is scum, I support it.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, I don't think anyone is trying to clear OP's actions. I think, along with most people in the topic judging from what's been posted, that the mistaken hammer is just one of several extremely questionable things that he posted in a very short period of time. I think it makes him look worse, not better. Whether he really thought he was hammering me and was doing so without a strong (or any) conviction of my scummyness, or if he made the mistake and didn't even know when the hammer occured, I think it makes him look pretty bad when combined with his doc claim and other recent posts.

And I didn't say that you thought he was scum. I said your line of thinking leads to that conclusion.

[GnKoichi]

It's you, but again thank you for misquoting me by leaving out the sentence that clarifies things. That's the one that came after your first quote:

And I didn't say that you thought he was scum. I said your line of thinking leads to that conclusion.

Hos: Kmd

I'm not going to argue this way with you any more. Before, you just seemed bad at analysis. But this has happened enough times to make me think you might be scum just trying to make me look bad (which is silly, because all along there were GOOD reasons you could have had for voting against me, like others did. You just chose to invent them).

[GnKoichi]

Come to think of it, let's add Charter and Kmd to the list of Tony and Ani. What do you think about OP's recent posts?

[GnKoichi]

You know what, I can understand how seeing "This train of thought will lead you to thinking X" could be read as "You think X", but since that's clearly an interpretation, why would Charter decide to attack me for it? You have to admit, objectively, that I could have meant exactly what I said, and you also have to admit that Kmd left out a sentence when he quoted me, and that said sentence helps to explain my meaning. Finally, Kmd proved his continued lack of reading comprehension when he said I couldn't answer his question, when I did exactly that in the first two words of my post. His question was "Who were you referring to" and I answer "You". I just went on to explain what I meant.

Finally, why take the time to post and not answer my question?

[GnKoichi]

Jesus, Kmd, I know you don't think he's scum! You made an argument that includes OP being scum, then said that it's just a possibility. All I tried to say was that I support conjecture which leads to people thinking of OP as scum.

And the question thing was directed at Charter. It was the same question I asked you, Tony, and Ani, and you answered a few posts ago.

[GnKoichi]

Thanks to Charter for the reply. I don't buy it personally. I think basing your opinions on what has happened in other games just doesn't fly in my mind, but if that's how you think, there's no point in arguing.

Ani, same question. Why post and ignore the question that I've asked twice now? What, specifically, do you think about OP's recent behaviour? I'd rather vote out him than you, but that line is wearing thin.

[GnKoichi]

I also don't think OP finding that quote of Stef was much of a Pro-town action, since it was clearly ignoring the tone of the statement. I think he was just desperate to turn a little of the attention away from himself, so he used the same tactic that was used against him recently, except he did it poorly.

[GnKoichi]

Also, while we're all focused on Ani for posting so little, Tony continues to post nothing at all.

[GnKoichi]

Seriously? Another post without answering the OP question?

unvote, vote: Ani

That being said, I still think Tony deserves attention. Saying that you're going to be away for the next few days does nothing to excuse the lack of activity recently. Also, OP has been very odd since the attention turned towards him, and his future actions are going to be measured carefully. Finally, Charter, man, I just don't know anymore. Saying OP did a good job finding that quote? I can't tell if he's being ironic or if he's making the same mistake of ignoring the non-serious nature of the statement. I also don't like that he's letting OP off the hook just because something similar happened to him in another game.

[GnKoichi]

When I asked you about OP's posts, this is what you gave as a response:

I'm definately not impressed by them, and he did literally the exact same thing in another game I was in with him, so it isn't really a scum tell to me, and certainly not enough to put him over you or even animorph.

So, that's what I meant about letting him off the hook. You say it wasn't a scum tell to you. But now you say:

GK, theres more than OP did the same in another game. It's that you've been horribly scummy, and horribly tied to animorph, who's also been horribly scummy. OP has just been scummy.

It's fine that you think I'm a better lynch right now. I'd think you, Tony, and OP all seem scummy, but my vote is Ani for the reasons I've given before. But now my question is, why suddenly say OP has been scummy? You said before that his posts weren't a scum tell, so what about his behavior did seem scummy?

[GnKoichi]

KMD: Never said it was a scummy action, just trying to counter Kiro's idea that it was actually Pro-Town.

[GnKoichi]

*facepalm*

If I could vote for you twice, I would.

[GnKoichi]

(One more vote isn't a hammer. Wall-E was already voting for Ani, so he's still L-2)

[GnKoichi]

I think Wall-E is playing the way he's played all game, unpredictably. He claims to want OP or Ani out, yet whenever the vote for either of them has gotten too high he's switched to the less voted lurker. He might as well keep his vote on Tony and call it a day. It's possible he's scumbuddies with one of them and tried to use his vote to distance himself. But that's a stretch. The only thing I could say for sure is that he's not the Serial Killer. What do you think, Charter, about Wall-E and about Ani?

[GnKoichi]

*sigh* Yeah, if I read through the first half of this game, I would think I was scum, too.

[GnKoichi]

Elvis: I've tried to be pro-town all game, though I realize now where I failed. I would say that since Page 24 I've been playing much better, and my posts have started to match my intentions.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, I thought you didn't want to argue semantics anymore.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd, would you prefer I not answer questions honestly? I never said to ignore my other posts. I've said in the past that if I get voted out for that behavior, I did it to myself, and it would be understandable.

[GnKoichi]

Charter, please elaborate on that in terms of Ani & Wall-E. I don't think you've given anything more than "GnK is scum" and single sentence opinions on everyone else all game.

[GnKoichi]

You know what, yes. What I said about Charter was an exaggeration, but it's one that rings true. What has he contributed in the last ten pages? He asks other people questions, but seems incapable of updating his own opinions. I don't expect him to suddenly be on my side, but there has been a lot to look at since OP started posting, and he really doesn't seem very interested in it since that has taken votes off of me. He's a one trick pony. If he really thinks Ani & I are scumbuddies, how does he explain my vote on Ani? Why not put his vote on Ani to try and call what he must assume is a bluff on my part?

My statement against Charter was mostly out of anger. When someone posts something like this...

I don't really see the need to debate GK being lynched. He needs to, there's really no other side of it. Look at what he's doing now. It's almost the same thing as me saying I lied, he's admitting to playing scummily. By his own logic he should be lynched. I've said that phrase about him too many times to count now...

... I get steamed. To say there's only one side to an argument is to show your lack of understanding of the situation. He has his blinders on, seeming only to think of voting me, which is just as disrespectful to the game as lurkers. If he really wants me gone, he should try to build a case against me. He must see that most people aren't voting for me anymore, so his own vote is wasted if he doesn't put more effort into building that lynch.

But more importantly, let's see if those who said Ani had only one last chance will stick to their word and knock him out after that post.

[GnKoichi]

Ugh. I just read what "bussing" means. Well, crap.

People play this game pretty crazy.

[GnKoichi]

He's L-1. Actions speak louder than words, kmd.

Also:

Hey, my opinions aren't changing

Frightfully similar to Charter's post that upset me last page. How can you play a game like this and not allow for your opinions to change?

[GnKoichi]

Interesting... I was playing WIFOM trying to think what certain roles might claim...

I'm thinking we lynch GnKoichi or Kiro (or plum), let animorpherv live for today but don't protect him tonight.

If animorpherv is vig, he gets off one shot tonight even if he gets killed (since he isn't protected).

If animorpherv lives he's probably scum (or mafia AND SK decided not to kill him).

Mafia and SK might target animorpherv, which would let all the other townies live (not a bad trade, IMO).

Even if mafia and SK don't target animorpherv, we have more docs on the remaining players since nobody's on ani. Which increases our survival rate.

If Ani lives until tomorrow we may be able to confirm him through his action and the choices of others. Then if we find out he really is a vig we can protect him from now on. This situation would be bad for scum, so they really should try to kill animorpherv tonight. And since they can't coordinate, hopefully they both kill ani and we don't have any other kills.

NOTE: we should be vigilant for any hints of coordination...

I found a hint of coordination.

Seriously, how can you say that at the end of a post attempting to get people coordinated?

I'm curious how far into game you are in terms of reading, only because you think of Kiro as scum. I can't think of any reasons except for one comment from a LONG time ago. There are plenty of better reasons to be suspicious of others. You also don't give any reasons for not lynching Ani, since you seem to be fine with him dying at night, and he's clearly the easiest lynch right now.

I'll hammer if I feel everything has been discussed. Right now, I'd be leaving a few things unanswered and ending discussion... Actually, I'll call dibs on the hammer.

What do you still want answered, and from whom? Ani has made it clear he's not going to answer any questions. He's just doing as he's been told by Stef to avoid getting lynched, yet he still has provided no clear opinions on anything that has happened in the game. And what do you mean you call "dibs"?

[GnKoichi]

Plum, I did respond to the Ani claim. I said he was just doing what Stef told him to do to avoid being lynched. I don't think we can treat it like a normal claim. He was desperate to avoid the hammer, and apparently it would have worked if you had seen it before Kmd. Frankly, I don't think it changes anything and I'm glad the lynch went through.

[GnKoichi]

Kmd: Congratulations, you have officially joined Wall-E and Charter in the "what game are they even playing?" pile. Unvotes are not necessary, as stated in the rules. This even came up somewhere in the game (I think it might have even been you!) and Mirth clarified that

s

he did not need unvotes. You've crossed a line here. I support the outcome, but it has forever changed how you'll be perceived.

Elvis: Wow. I'm not liking your posts. You ask a question that is answered in the sentence after the one you quoted, which shows me you aren't reading carefully. You seem upset that I asked how far into the read you are, except you've been making a LOT of comments on the recent events. That seems like an odd thing to do if you're missing the 20 pages in between. That would be like reading the first chapter and last chapter of a book and then trying to write a report on it. You also make the same mistake Plum did in acting like I didn't comment on Ani's claim before he was hammered. This might be an acceptable thing to miss if Plum hadn't done it first, creating several posts where you could have seen my comments mentioned.

[GnKoichi]

I made my position on the hammer very clear. I didn't think we could take Ani's vig claim seriously. It came far too late, and he only did it because Stef flat out told him that if he claimed, he would be spared. I'm angry at Ani for playing poorly enough to draw the ire of seven players when he could have done just a little bit more and stayed alive to help town.

Frankly, Kmd, I don't buy your excuse. I think your inability to read throughout this game is an act. You've used it too strategically. You never just make a mistake. You make a mistake that makes someone else look bad, or you make a mistake that would excuse your own scummy behavior. It's all getting to be a little much. So:

vote: kmd

I don't want to push for too short a day, because I think it's worth discussing the claiming of doc protection. Someone with more experience could probably lay out the pros and cons of this, and if it's just not a good idea, I'll drop it. But it seems like that could be a good source of information.

[GnKoichi]

Well, jesus. Are we in a LyLo? Right now we've got two docs and a vig, and there's an SK and two Mafia (one a doc). If we need four to lynch, we NEED the SK to vote with town, and we need to get ALL of town on the same page, unless the Mafia start bussing each other (I doubt they would this late in the game, right?). I think it's in the SK's interest to scum hunt with us at this point, right? A Mafia majority would be bad for him, too, or am I missing something? Or, could we try to lynch the SK? That would leave 2 Mafia at night (at least one protected) and 3 Town (hopefully two protected), with a Mafia kill and a Vig kill. If the Mafia kill goes through, and the Vig kill doesn't (or hits town by mistake), we're pretty much dead. So it seems like we have to lynch Mafia, and deal with the SK later.

All night phase, I was thinking about why Kmd would off himself. This is the only thing I could come up with: We were close to figuring something out. The only other thing discussed was claiming. If he killed himself to prevent the claiming conversation from happening, then we NEED to examine that avenue. I'm perfectly willing to claim first if others are hesitant. In fact, I'll just do it.

I'm a town Doc. Both nights I protected Wall-E.

[GnKoichi]

Quick thoughts:

Wall-E was the first to put a vote out in a near LyLo situation. He also seems to have been caught in two lies already. This doesn't look good, but there's no way I'm putting him at L-2 yet.

Kiro asks why anyone would claim at this stage, and says that Wall-E and I claimed without giving any reasons. My reasons were clearly stated. His set up in the Kmd lynch seems WAY too convenient in retrospect.

Nameless seems to want to hunt for the SK instead of Mafia. Maybe because he doesn't want us to hunt for HIM!? dun dun dun!

Plum is town.

Can't wait to hear what Tony has to say. It better be a novel.

[GnKoichi]

It fell under the heading of "thoughts".

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, that change of wording does nothing to change the problem with your statement.

Kiro: I protected Wall-E the first two nights because I had a gut Town read on him for the most part. He had played poorly in some cases, and I was worried he would draw NKs from this. I hoped that by protecting him I would save a Vig from accidentally killing him. At this point, I regret those decisions. His recent actions seem to put the rest of his play in perspective.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E's actual response to KMD's self vote:

UNVOTE

Wth KMD what's with voting yourself?!?

Gah. I'm going to put you all on timeout until someone makes some sense in here.

Vote: Wall-E

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, you don't seem to have any concept of time. I claimed before you lied, so your lies had no affect on my decision to claim. We had nothing to go on when I proposed the claiming idea (which I still support despite putting you at L-2). But since then, you have been caught in THREE LIES and you still haven't given anything close to an acceptable explanation.

If you're scum, then putting you at L-2 isn't a problem! Assuming Kiro is town or the SK, our two votes can stay on you while the other docs claim and we can get a little more info out of the round. Then, the other two town (or the third town and the SK) can put their votes on you and we can move on. That sounds pretty ideal to me.

[GnKoichi]

Tony needs to speak. Now. Also, hands raised, who is willing to step forward and be the other two votes needed to put Wall-E away once we feel we have a good set of information?

[GnKoichi]

Can we get a round of applause for post #854? Welcome to the game, Tony! (not meant with any sarcasm {I hate the internet})

He's been on every major wagon, made the mistake of suggesting no lynch, exaggerated poor arguments and cases, tried to handwave suspicion by saying things like "I'm turning over a new leaf", "All the hate against me isn't grounded", "I'm only being lynched because I'm defending myself" (Paraphrasing) ... It doesn't help that the first thing he says D3 is LET'S IGNORE THE SK EVERYONE.

GK, what is your response to my accusations that you are the SK?

I'm not really sure how to respond. Your analysis of me seems correct in terms of describing what I've done. I'm just not following your logic to me being the SK. I have been on every major wagon, except for the one against myself, obviously, thought I believe there are a few players who would fall into that category (you, for one). I really don't see what the "no lynch" thing has to do with anything. How would that benefit the SK? Also, yes, I defended myself by "turning over a new leaf", but actually, since then I've turned over a new leaf (no quotation marks). Wouldn't you say my play style has improved? Doesn't that lend credence to those posts?

The only point which I follow is that I've said not to Lynch the SK today. I guess that could be suspicious, except I think others have agreed, and even shown mathematically, that this is the correct plan. I'm all for trying to oust the SK tomorrow, and I think we probably have enough info to figure out who s/he is based on tonight's NKs, and possibly the order in which people chose to support the Wall-E lynch today.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, you agreeing with Tony's analysis does nothing to clear you of being scum. Your lies all came in Day 3, so saying you weren't scummy Day 2 is completely meaningless (if not also wrong).

Nameless, I did know that the SK was NK immune, I just failed to connect the dots. My thought process was more "The SK wants people to die, so why would he vote for people not to die?". Wasn't really thinking about him trying to protect himself. That said, crap, yeah, you make a good point for me being the SK. Guess all I can say is "I'm not" and hope that you believe me. Those Day 1 mistakes are going to be the end of me.

Personally, I think we're ready for a hammer on Wall-E. I don't know that we could get any more information. Most players seem to have their suspicions on who the scum buddy and SK are. There's some overlap, so I think there's something close to consensus (can't say I'm happy that I'm on the wrong side of that). My personal thought is that Kiro is the SK or the Mafia Doc (based solely on him wanting to avoid protection back in Day 1). I think Tony or Nameless could be the scumbuddy, Tony for lurking and Nameless for his interactions with Kmd and Wall-E. Plum, if you're scum, you're simply amazing. I don't know that anyone is after you right now (except Wall-E, who, you know, whatever).

[GnKoichi]

Agreed on the scum thing. Don't let yourself get pushed. Scum at this point are going to try to get us pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Stay on target.

Nameless, I agree that there isn't much more to my suspicion of Kiro than there is to your suspicion of me. They are about the same level of reasoning. I know it was simply a mistake on my part, and not a scumtell, but no one else does, so I can't really refute it. Kiro may be experiencing the same thing, knowing that it was just a slip up early in the game that is making him look bad much later. But since you're not in my head, and I'm not in his, I don't see a contradiction.

[GnKoichi]

Hah, EBWOP my freudian slip: Agreed on the PLUM thing!

[GnKoichi]

Okay, so I have to say that Nameless is starting to top my list in terms of suspicion. This isn't an OMGUS reaction. He seems to be overreacting to everything I say. He claims that I tried to get people to vote for Kiro, when all I did was state my own (already admittedly weak) suspicions, same as many other players have done. I have made it clear that we seem ready to lynch Wall-E at this point, and that most of our information for the next day will come in analyzing today and tonight. To say that my comment about Kiro was trying to start a vote rally is a major overstatement. Also, he says that if I were town I would give Kiro the benefit of the doubt. This doesn't follow. It's possible for both a town player and a scum player to make the same mistake. Finally, I made it clear that "I know I'm town" doesn't clear me of anything. Before you started attacking me I admitted that those mistakes early in the game could end up killing me, and I accepted responsibility for that many times. If it's what you believe, you're welcome to believe it. It's my fault that I gave you that impression. But now you're taking your suspicion of me way too far. You're bordering on Kmd levels of reading comprehension, and pushing a case against me this hard when we've got scum trapped already is not going to help the town.

[GnKoichi]

Nameless, I don't see any point in responding to your latest post. We're basically going in circles. I don't really care to change your mind, and I trust anyone reading our back-and-forth can come to a balanced opinion. Also, your attitude sucks lately. I don't care if I'm not playing well in your eyes. If you know you're being rude (the harshness of your responses that you yourself pointed out) fix it. This is the internet. You have the opportunity to change your tone once you notice it (unless you're just doing it for effect).

Kiro, you're right. What I should have focused on was the interactions between Nameless and Kmd/Wall-E. I don't really have time tonight to do that justice. I'll try to get it done tomorrow night.

In the meantime, if we're going to get anything else out of this round, I think it requires more claiming, at least by the other doc (I think we can assume Wall-E was lying). I can't really think of any other sources of information to wait on. I don't have a problem with Wall-E being at L-1. I doubt he'll self-hammer, since he would have done that by now. I don't think Nameless will hammer, because I'm pretty sure he's the scum buddy and he thinks he has a chance to turn the tide against me before the day is over, saving his friend (notice how wary he has been to turn against Wall-E today, and how little he's contributed to the analysis of Wall-E or Kmd's play). Finally, I think Plum will put the hammer in when the time is right. She's a good enough player to know when to go.

[GnKoichi]

Wall-E, you again fail completely to do anything to make yourself sound like town. You fail to read pretty much everything you respond to. One of your questions is in response to a sentence fragment, the answer to which would be the other half of the sentence which you chose not to quote. Everyone can read. No one is fooled.

Tony, Nameless, Kiro, Plum, whichever of you is the other doc, please claim (role and protection) so we have something to look at. If you're Mafia, feel free to try to sneak a lie past us. If you don't even try, we'll find you from your silence. I don't know what to do if you're the vig. I guess claiming is up to you. It would certainly help to hear someone claim death targets. I doubt the SK will claim. Once this is done, or if you're the other doc and you know you're not going to claim, you might as well hammer and end the day, because I don't see other roads of outing the last mafia, and more time might give Scum-E a chance to wriggle free.

I said today I was going to analyze Nameless's interactions with Kmd/Wall-E. My first thoughts are this (note, I will speak as thought Nameless as scum, but it's obviously just a suspicion):

Day 1) Nameless was one of the biggest voices to push for lynching lurkers. This was a safe move for him as scum, because he knew his two partners (Kmd and Wall-E) were not among the lurkers. Let's also remember Wall-E's attempt to show Nameless is scum. He made a huge argument, but as soon as one player showed one thing was a misread, he dropped it. It seemed like a big show: Just Wall-E putting a little distance from his partner, but not enough to push the argument.

Day 2) Nameless is the first to vote Kmd when the day begins. This ensures that a rally begins RIGHT AWAY. If scum's plan was to keep the day short, well, it worked. They played us. Knowing that it would only take a little push to get the group to put Kmd L-2, they knew Wall-E and Kmd could finish the job and end the day before we could get our act together.

Day 3) Nameless is last on the boat against Wall-E, and even when he joins he does nothing to add to the argument. He simply says he's ready to vote Wall-E. Well, guess what, so's everybody else! It's not saying anything to be vote #5 when there are only three town left alive.

I may add to this later if the day drags on, but I feel pretty comfortable with it.

[GnKoichi]

People need to read more carefully.

Nameless: I was saying the SK wouldn't claim his kills, in the context of the vig doing so, which would give us information (thus, the vig is a good source of info, and should consider claiming).

Tony: Kiro was saying you lurked Day 1, so you shouldn't expect us to assume you wouldn't have done the same thing Day 2.

Nameless: Tony was saying that it was questionable of Kiro to question Tony's vote of Wall-E.

[GnKoichi]

Also, can we PLEASE talk more about claiming? People are trying to duck the suspicions on themselves and say they want to find more information. Is there any more information we could get than analyzing the implied lies of a mass claim? Nameless, Tony, you both posted since the last time I asked for claims. Can you at least say why you're NOT claiming?

[GnKoichi]

Kiro (but really everyone):

I don't think the Mafia team needs any more information than they already have. Since the town and SK are pretty much working towards goal (killing scum) until they are eliminated, the Mafia just have to kill anyone who isn't them. Claiming shouldn't out the SK, because he will probably lie, and then they have to figure it out same way as us. Infact, if the SK claims doc or vig and is believed by scum, this could help us as they waste their attack on someone NK immune.

On the other hand, yes, there would be a lot of WIFOM to sort through. If people don't claim, we have, essentially, nothing but our guts. But as town, we have the LEAST amount of information, so ANY information is helpful. You don't have to "prove" your actions (which you claim to be impossible). But about half the group will tell the truth, and the other half will either have to come up with a lie or have to justify their silence. Both of those give us a chance to catch scum! I just don't see how claiming hurts town more than it helps.

[GnKoichi]

Man, I have to say, I am totally baffled by how people are responding to the mass claim.

People keep talking about getting more information for town, without giving more information to scum. But there's no way to do that! If we scum hunt, without claiming, and get the consensus Nameless and others want, we will have a really good idea of what to do at night. But at the same time, scum will have a really good idea of what we're going to do at night. If there are three town players identified, but there's a lingering doubt about one of them, it's likely docs will not protect that townie, because if the doubt turns out to be correct, a doc will have wasted his protection on scum. But the mafia already KNOW who everyone is (aside from the SK). If they have no idea who we are protecting, they have a much better chance of wasting their kill on someone protected or NK immune.

On the other hand, if we all claim, yes, it would be easy for scum to come up with a lie. But if we don't claim, they don't even have to bother doing that! Any lie, even one easy to craft, can be found out. You pressure people. Ask them for their reasons. Compare their claim with quotes from Day 1. It's at least a CHANCE to find a LEAK! And yes, we run the same chance as any scum hunt, that the scum will know what we're thinking. But at least this way we can be predictable and RIGHT instead of predictable and BLIND!

[GnKoichi]

Again, Nameless, circles. I'm going to refute things, and then you're going to ignore me, or say my rebuttals are, in themselves, evidence. But I'll indulge on these two points:

- GK continually pushes for docs to claim targets and spontaneously claims himself, even after others have disagreed. Generally dubious, as I mentioned earlier and Plum elaborated on.

I've given strong reasons why I feel people should claim, and I haven't seen one person completely address those ideas. Yes, people have disagreed, but I believe that I make a better case than they have. My claiming is not spontaneous. It was with purpose. You can continue to ignore my reasoning, but I've put it in plain sight.

- Is adamant that we should leave the SK for later, that the SK will be gunning for the mafia, that the SK will not claim (shortly after he does), and has still been pushing to end the day ASAP. GK's not exactly being subtle here.

I corrected you on this once already. I didn't mean the SK wouldn't claim. I meant he likely wouldn't claim his targets (it was meant to be connected to another sentence, the one before it, where I said the Vig claiming his targets could be a good source of information to analyze). Obviously if there's a mass claim he will come up with a fake claim, likely doc, just as the mafia members will.

Also, if the SK is smart he WILL gun for mafia right now. If he doesn't treat himself as a town player today and tonight, mafia has an easy win. Finally, I've only said the day should end early if people do not plan on claiming, because I don't believe we can get anything good out of the day without it, and more time without solid information means more time for scum to mislead us.

[GnKoichi]

Over 48 hours since my last post and NOTHING from ANYONE! I don't even know what to say about this, but it needs to be pointed out.

[GnKoichi]

Here's where we disagree Kiro. You say it would be hard or impossible to find a lie and your response is to not even try. My point is, yes, it may lead nowhere, but if we don't do it, it WILL lead nowhere. If it ends up being pointless, we've lost nothing. In the off chance that we catch someone, we gain everything! Honestly, I do understand your point of view, but not enough to change my own mind. We may just be at an impasse here, and if so I'm willing to drop it.

I think I've stated my suspicions, though they may have shifted slightly. I think Wall-E and Nameless are scum. I think it's too hard to tell on the SK. Could be you. Could be Tony.

Judging ONLY by this round's actions. I think it's really safe to say Wall-E is scum. If he were town, the scum would have descended on him by now and hammered. They don't have to worry about outing themselves by dropping the hammer, because one more dead town and an unorganized night phase are all they would need to win. Nameless and Plum are the only two options as Wall-E's scum partner. I truly don't believe anyone would bus at this point. It's too risky with a Vig and an SK at night. I know I'm town, so that leaves either Kiro or Tony as the SK (or, I suppose it could be whoever of Plum and Nameless isn't the other mafia, but I think the SK would have hammered mafia by now as well).

As for defending myself and clearing my name, I don't think there's anything to clear. Nameless made an okay case for me being the SK (based on my Day 1 actions, not everything he's accused me of). I made mistakes for a good portion of this game, and I've accepted that if I get lynched or NKed because of it, it'll be my fault. I can't say those things didn't happen. I acted poorly back then, and he's within his rights to hold it against me. I just hope it doesn't end up costing the town the game. I've tried to behave more recently in order to prevent that from happening. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a good argument against me in the last two days. Nameless is really reaching with some of his more recent attempts.

My questions:

Nameless, Plum: How close do you feel to the hammer? Do you have any specific questions you need answered before you'll take the plunge?

Tony, Kiro: If you are town, what would you advise our Vig to do tonight?

Wall-E: You are dead to me. Do you like pie?

[GnKoichi]

Thoughts:

Tony makes another excuse as to his lack of posts. Yes, this one is Christmas, but he was absent before things got close to the holiday, and even if he was busy all last week it's too late to believe him. It's the boy who cried wolf. If you want to be excused from posting when you're busy, you should have contributed more when you were available.

Wall-E takes a meaningless shot at Plum and Tony. If he flips scum, this could be a last minute reverse-bus attempt (what do you even call that?) where I dying scum tries to distance himself from his partner, knowing he's about to be revealed. This is extremely weak, but Wall-E hasn't given us much (other than his own guilt).

Nameless hammers. Is he trying to stop Tony from answering? I doubt it. He really has been useless all game, but I think calling for a vig call on him tonight is a little harsh. Nameless, weren't you the one who said we have to be careful tonight? Why would we risk wasting our kill on a lurker?

Kiro doesn't get any last posts in before the lynch. Any thoughts before the kill is posted?

Plum continues to play extremely safely. I really don't know. Could be squeaky clean; could be the perfect cover.

[GnKoichi]

I just want to thank everyone for being a part of my very first game!