Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Dunnstral]

he writes for a living, so he has elite level reading comprehension and shouldn't ever have to read a post 4 times to comprehend it

Not sure how serious this was but I found it funny

[Dunnstral]

But also that isn't true by the way

[Dunnstral]

OK so, I don't like posts 32 or 34 because I don't like the way they are hopping on to Datisi this early. 39 Is not the same in my mind.

As for Datisi, I think they are pretty good at faking tone as scum, at least at the start of the game, I don't have a read on them right now. I don't consider that to be contradictory to the above because I am not reading them as scum

[Dunnstral]

One of them had a... nudge, in Datisi's direction. ("Did you roll scum again?")

I think calling that a nudge is being generous

What do they expect Datisi to say in response to that?

I see it as them low-key giving reasoning for their vote (they suspect Datisi)

[Dunnstral]

And then there's just not an indication that this is a worry in his head. Towny or scummy to you?

If you mean Datisi neither right now

51 from you feels towny to me

[Dunnstral]

I liked that you seemed to have a lot to talk about after my post 50 instead of disappearing from the thread after voting Datisi

And I thought it was reasonable too

[Dunnstral]

I’m assuming the rhyme & reason thing isn’t a chat restriction because it’s irrelevant to the theme.
If it is, you need to clearly state this is the case in your next post and you need to spell out the consequences to breaking it.

Why do they need to do that?

[Dunnstral]

Having played with Datisi recently and in the past, I was not under the impression that they were somebody who was wagoned early or that they came a cross as awkward early

Lukewarm gammagooey town for voting Marci

Datisi wagon bad imo

Think Datisi >Rand town

Scum on Datisi probably VP and or Marci?

Possibly a late vote like fay

Rhyme and reason post restriction is distracting

Bell needs to place a vote

Other nonvoters just need to post

You're not voting Marcy though

I have to say that this might lean more towards a Datisi town rather than a Datisi scum for the nonchalant behavior.

Are you basing this off of anything or just feelings?

[Dunnstral]

Why is MarcI using sporadic caps lock in post 106?

I can't tell if it's frustration, emphasis, or something else

[Dunnstral]

I suggested that I would try and find the time check the veracity of that statement, and then (and only then, not when you first said it), did dunnstral say that wasn't their experience, and your next post is an acknowledgement that I wont find a good example of you being wagoned early as town. Why do you think it happened to town you early in this game, then?

When it was first brought up I knew it wasn't my experience, and you can see I described what I thought about them shortly before that. I haven't played that many recent games with Datisi and assumed that what I saw was not the norm for them and that they were speaking the truth about their own meta. When you talked about it later, it was also shortly after Datisi brought it up again in post 133 response to post 82, and I was more skeptical about it at this point. My post was at least partially in response to you bringing it up again

[Dunnstral]

A good part of me wants to call Luke town for not knowing who I am tbh, cause I know someone in maf chat has said who I am, it's not hard to figure out, but then I think about it, and Luke says he looked at my "1 game, and I didn't out reads there" ok sure, but I definitely outed myself that game, so like, you didn't see that happen? but you read it? interesting... idk, it's not a solid read I'd die on, but found it worth mentioning.

How do you know that? That seems like a weird assumption to me. How many people here do you think know who you are?

[Dunnstral]

I've never seen andante wall post before so I'm not sure why it would be obvious that this was andante

[Dunnstral]

Kovu (replaces ta vera)
Rosarium (replaces Klick, Salsabil Faria)
Save The Dragons
the worst*
HockeyFan
NorwegianboyEE
Enchant
Frogsterking

This is the player list in the game where Kovu slipped their identity

2. Fey
14. Kovu
18. Enchant

Fey is the only person who could reasonably be an alt of somebody else in that game, and then kovu and Enchant are the only two players.
However, Kovu says they think they know Fey's identity in post 172, but they already thought that somebody in maf chat revealed their identity in post 164.

And the only person in that game with Kovu is Enchant. And Kovu has no opinion there. So I don't really buy that they think the maf chat is discussing their identity and are clearing Lukewarm off of that.

[Dunnstral]

A good part of me wants to call Luke town for not knowing who I am tbh, cause I know someone in maf chat has said who I am, it's not hard to figure out, but then I think about it, and Luke says he looked at my "1 game, and I didn't out reads there" ok sure, but I definitely outed myself that game, so like, you didn't see that happen? but you read it? interesting... idk, it's not a solid read I'd die on, but found it worth mentioning.

Why did you say this?

[Dunnstral]

like, how does the exact moment people learn who I am, make anyone maf?

This is a pretty gross misrepresentation of what I said

[Dunnstral]

I mean, why do you think the mafia team is discussing your identity? How did you get to that?

[Dunnstral]

Sorry I have not been here. Been running a little thin.

Main take away from the last couple pages is that I'm pretty sure dunn is always town here. I don't think scum dunn ever makes that argument about kovu (regardless of kovus alignment)

so you're town locking dunn for the exact reasons I no longer TR him? nothing about that was related to the game at all, and where is game related content from dunn? I'm not seeing any. Feels like a really odd reason to town lock him

It was related to the game though. In case you still don't get it, I was saying I don't believe your thought process and that that makes you shady.

I'm not sure how you can argue it was not related to the game when you are basing one of your reads off of it

[Dunnstral]

Why is it town for Marci and Datisi but not for Bell?

[Dunnstral]

As a sidenote, I disagree with your Dunn townread - I think I've seen like 3 people say they townread him and to me he looks the same as he did in the last game I was in where he was scum (Slaughter Hour), and I don't remember him being different in World of Tomorrow where we were both scum with him either (though my memory of that game isn't great tbf and I checked out a bit after I died). Like I haven't seen him as town in ages and it's still early game, but his vibe still seems like *he exists a little bit but never sticks his neck out and makes a big deal of anything relevant*.

Also maybe this is me being annoying about taking "don't want to kill" being stronger than you might actually mean it but I feel like nobody except fire and Bell (post-claim and ONLY for today) being on that list is justifiable in my eyes

Yeah you think Dunn is town for Kovu-logic but I feel like Dunn's perfectly capable of making a weird but logical argument as scum, tho prob we're going to disagree and I'd be fine leaving it at that for now.
I feel like you're underestimating LLD (especially) & VPB's general ability as scum, Enchant has a very high chance of being my Invictus target by the end of the day if her posting doesn't improve, and Kovu's like. fine? I don't think they look town yet but it does seem like you've played with Andante before and probably have a baseline idea of either their town or scum play.

So do you scumread me or have me as null here?
You keep pointing to other games as reasons to not townread me but haven't really talked about anything in this game.

And if your answer to the above is that I haven't done anything, my retort is then "why are you focusing on me?"

Same deal with LLD. How is LLD being underestimated - they've barely posted

[Dunnstral]

hello friends i am home from vacation

Bell has claimed to be a confirmable PR

[Dunnstral]

i dont scumread you for that anymore, i have diff reasons now!!

Which is what?

[Dunnstral]

Datisi (2) marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)

Look at this y'all
Marci is still on her page 1 vote and day 1 is almost over
She is not even really scumhunting

What about me?

[Dunnstral]

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

[Dunnstral]

i dont scumread you for that anymore, i have diff reasons now!!

Which is what?

Datisis posts are very mean spirited by nature,
i think hes overly self aware too, to the point where its scummy!! like hes like oH iM jUsT aWkWaRd!! but like DOES THAT NOT SOUND LIKE EXCUSES? like once is eh enough, but i remember him doing that more than once so its certainly eyebrow raising!!

This is fair and I can see what you are talking about

i think him attacking me and val is v sketchy too, in the way he did it, hes kinda reminiscent of this one dude i met before. even tho i know they cant be the same person :blush: i see it as a viable scum strategy. Like i said before, datisis goal this game is just to outscream anyone scumreading him, thats why it reminds me of him. Hes convincing just like this dude was, but deep down i KNOW  its same vibes!! is it not obvious?!?!? because of datisis BANSHEE SCREAMS u guys dont want to oppose him, but very clearly im not scared of the devil (:

I don't think this is true and don't like this part of your argument

He also keeps bandwagoning otherpeoples votes, i think its just to be buddy buddy with them and make himself look cool and good in their eyes, hes obviously set himself up to succeed and YALL ARE JUST BIASED!! The easiest votes in the world which is what hes been doing all game, is not *that* hard for scum to make.

I didn't get the impression that they were bandwagoning while reading, I didn't check to see how true your statement here is after reading this though.

very clearly using bad logic wHy ArE yOu UsInG tHe NoTeS pT bAltEr?!?!?

Agree with this

yDrAsSeS uSuAlLy mOrE eXcItEd As ToWn!@

Don't think this one is bad (not sure whether it is true though)

[Dunnstral]

idk he is my biggest scumread right now and I don't really want to vote Dwlee yet
@Dwlee that's just wrong. I replied later that night :igmeou:

I don't like this post

It feels like you are going out of your way to be nonchalant, and that you are going to vote for Dwlee later.

You don't have a big reason not to, especially when it comes down to you or Dwlee. So I think you are faking reluctance to not look bad for voting here, rather than naturally arriving here.

I agree with post]1057[/post] and 1065. I think LavarManos looks bad in their response to pressure + Dwlee wagon.

VOTE: LavarManos

E-2

[Dunnstral]

To play devil's advocate, I do think that a town Datisi would be on the look our for an awkward mention of keeping notes on a game from Baltar, because he previously did a meta check on the fact whether Baltar comments on keeping note as scum.

OK

Without the context you show here I didn't like the post either

[Dunnstral]

I'm not convinced that VP Baltar has a good read on my meta based on the post a bit above, and I disagre both on what my meta is and what I was doing day 1. That is to say, I wasn't proactive on day 1, and that's not my scum meta, whereas they are saying I was proactive on day 1 and that's my town meta. It's weird because they are misreading 2 different things to try to determine my alignment.

In the end it doesn't really matter, and trying to push me for having a low content day 1 is folly based on history. I will now pull out the chart I pull out almost literally every game when somebody misrepresents my activity meta (so much so that I've mailed this to myself for faster access):

Spoiler:

it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

I did fancy shit because why not?



So, I ran all three games that you linked as well as every game that I can remember playing with Dunn through the spread sheet. Calculated Dunn's percentage of all posts made day 1 compared to how many players were in the game, then did conditional formatting to color his higher post rate games green. (because you are positing that lurk dunn = scum dunn) to then see if there is any corrolation.

The conditional formatting guessed incorrectly 4 times, got it right 1 time, and then it did not give a result on his middle of the road game.

If anything, this is wrong more then it is right, and lurk Dunn = town Dunn.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87781 - Chromatic Ascension, Dunn was Knight Beige
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87638 - True Love
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=83971 - Forest Fire

some (semi-)recent samples of lurkscum Dunn
there could be others from games I didn't keep tabs on but it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

-GE

I'm not lurking in the first 2 games, I'm town in the last game.

omg. If you were town in Forest fire, that would eliminate the singular correct guess based on posting habits, and it will have been wrong in every single listed game lmao

This is dated at this point and no longer means much but I've never seen anyone able to provide evidence that shows the contrary. Occasionally someone like Vp Baltar will confidently state that the opposite of what is shown above is true, but provide either 1 data point or more often no examples at all.

Cool. So now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad, let's focus on the current game. My activity on day 1 doesn't really matter. I think we should focus on Datisi flip because there is no potential wifom there, I don't think Lady Lambdadelta foreshadowed that they would shoot there at all, meaning the mafia were not "prepared" for Datisi dying coming into today. I suspect that Marci and Val89 would have spent the whole day tunneled on Datisi. Several players have pointed out that Val has been very narrow in their pushes this game. I didn't like that they started this day with post 1171, specifically where they say "I realise I am probably handing out a free mislim". It seems overdramatic, I'm not sure there is critical mass for a wagon there. I also don't like that they bring up the Lavar flip with Marci but don't think about the Datisi flip. I like their posts after this point.

Marci doesn't seem to have any idea what to do now that Datisi is dead. I don't think that is a good look since as I pointed above this would have been a surprise flip for mafia.

It may be worth noting that Lavarmanos was pushing Datisi day 1 as well, and so I think the wagon is less likely to be scum influenced (they certainly could have jumped on though).

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: val89

Do you scumread Dwlee?

[Dunnstral]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=13390462#p13390462]

Val89

- Refer to 616 and 912. All of his posts today are also good, honestly. Townread here[/quote]

You liked 1171?

[Dunnstral]

now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad

When I read your alignment incorrectly, you can use this line. Am I reading your alignment wrong?

No but you got to it in the wrong way. It's like you incorrectly flipped my alignment twice and the result is that you got me as town, but you still used two faulty premise that should both make you think the other way. And combined they cancelled out.

I think activity is bad meta on me. I've shown that I can be active as both town and scum, and inactive as both town and scum.

I think you may have brought this up in another game, with me also saying you were wrong in that game

[Dunnstral]

its mostly just been encouraging my bad takes and shutting down my good ones,

How do you know which are bad and which are good?

[Dunnstral]

Ashe: Testarossa -> Mastina
Amumu: FireisredSir
Caitlyn: Dwlee99
Elise: 0x1A4 -> Enchant
Gragas: Marcistar
Lux: Ydrasse
Lulu: Flea the Magician
Jarvan IV: ɀefiend -> Dunnstral
Warwick: Save the Dragons

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

^still feel reasonably good this is mafia

Practice what you preach

I'm not seeing any cases or moving beyond the start of the game or "actually learning to read people better". And I'm not seeing any acknowledgment that the last 3 deaths actually happened besides saying that my vote on Lavar was bad somehow.

I've been keeping a lot of my reads to my notes and only mentioned them when necessary, but I'm pretty sure I

have

mentioned them. However, I've also openly been bored with the game since mid day 1, so I don't necessarily blame you if I feel like I'm "not doing much". But it's still on you to actually learn to read people better, if you're town.

[Dunnstral]

Feels more like his scum meta again

Prove it

Show us how that's my scum meta

[Dunnstral]

(it's not)

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: gorilla

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

Don't do this cheeky garbage, if you really think gorilla is scum then make a decent argument for it

gorilla was my strongest town read yesterday and I still strongly think that he's town, he's been active in sharing reads/opinions and in trying push scumreads/wagons yesterday until deadline came up, and his reaction to VPB felt VERY don't-give-a-shit-town to me. His recent responses to Meuh reinforce that point even more.

I believe that gorilla is guilty of what they are accusing others of.

I think that their reaction to pressure felt over-defensive and made me want to vote them more. Them doubling down on their vote on me when they had little reason to and ignoring presented evidence to the contrary in reaction to my vote by saying they were "still fairly sure I was scum" was scummy.

He has not been as active in sharing reads/opinions as you make out here, and I will point out that they do seem to care a lot when they are being voted here.

[Dunnstral]

Feels more like his scum meta again

Prove it

Show us how that's my scum meta

I easily could and you know that

You cannot. Talk is cheap, less blustering about how you 'could' do something.

I think it's very interesting, like you guys are all "just invictus enchant!!" or "enchant is scum!!!" just enchant goes "Gorilla maf" and now all of a sudden everyone is like "yeah!!" like, why did you have to wait for enchant for you to actually do something?
"Since when am I sheeping? I already said..."
ummm you waited for enchant.. yeah it falls into the category of sheeping, like, sure I definitely agree with gorilla being suspicious. for sure. but this wagon coming from a town (collective unit) where many yall are actively like "enchant isn't town!!" like, that feels really odd to me, also as long as gorilla continues to be like one of the only ones actively doing anything, I'm not voting gorilla d2

hard agree with all this.

Oh yeah? Quote where I called Enchant scum or said to invictus them.

You can't, I never said that. And I explained why I voted gorilla in my post above, it's not sheeping enchant or the marci-gorilla case (which I'm admittedly not sold on).

So you two are talking about Meuh then, but referring to them as town (collective unit) and implying that this is a thing multiple people are doing.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, what's your take on Cakez please.

I agree with the people who are saying that the way they are bringing up the lavar wagon to look right right could be scum.

I don't like how they tried to shade me with meta that isn't true and then said they weren't talking about meta anymore when they pretty much still were

[Dunnstral]

Mala appears to be heavily softing some sort of clear on RR to me.

I noticed this too

Wasn't sure if Bell missed it or didn't believe it

[Dunnstral]

So at this point, we really just need to settle on the names of seven players as being the most town and kill everyone else.

This doesn't sit right with me. Have you ever played in a game that went like this?

[Dunnstral]

Actually 1464 is a very weird post if you focus on it.

gorilla explains that we will eliminate during the day and then mafia will kill somebody at night, and also the invictus.

I'm not sure how that relates to what they are responding to, which is itself a response to gorilla originally saying that bell's friendly neighbor role was "overpowering" in this setup. What I'm getting at is, what's their point? How does them "explaining the setup" relate to what they said about Bell's role or to what meuh is saying.

And they end it off with what appears to be saying to figure out the seven townies players now, which doesn't make sense. And yeah Bell's role being friendly neighbor helps us but presumably they can just be killed so I do think Meuh has a point and that this stance that Bell's role is overpowering isn't a logical one.

[Dunnstral]

then he IMMEDIATELY responds with OMGUS and starts trying to discredit me
EXACTLY what he's doing here guys

I was asked for my read on you and my post was in response to that.

[Dunnstral]

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

like all my scumspects suddenly developed scumreads on me after I laid out my scumpool yesterday and I don't think it's a coincidence

I would very much like to kill Cakez today if anyone else is interested.

Like, here he is pushing the idea that scum would scum read him for scum reading scum. Ignores the fact that he town binned Dunn Day 1, but Dunn was pushed him.

Spoiler: Dunn shading Cakez, while cakez is still calling dunn town

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

I ignored it because I've gotten tons of towntells from you earlier on so I didn't see the relevance

It also ignores the people who are scum reading him that are not in his scum pool. (Me, I am talking about me. He has done nothing but call me town, but is then calling other people suspicious for doing something that I am also doing).

Yeah and did Dunn spend any time day 1 pushing me? no he didn't. has he spent most of today sitting on me? yeah he has. what changed in the meantime? not rocket science

I didn't say people scumreading me are scum so your last bit doesn't make any sense
I'm saying that I think scum want to get rid of me at this point, assuming my scumreads rn are correct

Quote where I voted for you

[Dunnstral]

I think it's pretty clear that my play here is actually not like slaughter hour at all

With the only actual similarity being that I suspect you

And you can clearly see how weak my reasoning was in slaughter hour. I've offered more explanation this game. And as pointed out I didn't scumread you in response to you pushing on me in this game.

[Dunnstral]

I quoted the player list in the other game because people were talking about it.

Dwlee I pointed out how my play in this game is not omgus against sircakez, other players have too. Why are you still pushing this? It's not true that I started voting or even pushing sircakez after they pushed me. I pointed out how me giving a read on sircakez was in response to somebody else asking.

[Dunnstral]

A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT"

It's not "nitpicking". Like, they're lying, right?

[Dunnstral]

This isn't what I remember finding the first time but I think it fits the criteria

Both of these posts happen in another game

What is your argument for

this game

?

[Dunnstral]

The Dunn scum meta I was referring to before I mentioned his bad reaction was just a general poor quality of posts day 2. Like less engaged, less scumhunting, etc

I was pretty sure you were talking about my post count, actually.

VOTE: Dunnstral

started okay, mostly fell off, vote on lavar kind of bad, not a lot of scumhunting.

I could sheep this
Dunn really fell off towards EoD1. Feels more like his scum meta again now and the Lavar vote was for sure bad.

Feels more like his scum meta again

Prove it

Show us how that's my scum meta

I easily could and you know that

These posts both came after a fairly in-depth discussion about whether my post count meant I was scum

Did not mean to hit submit lol.

Cakez, a while back I did a bunch of meta to calculate Dunns dat 1 activity compared to his alignment, and found fairly consistently that he was more active as scum and more likely to just lurk our day 1 as town

It is not 100%, but across a multitude of games as both alignments, it was a pretty clear trend.

I do not think that the meta point you are making about Dunn is valid in any way.

I have found that Dunn activity level is pretty clearly tied to how invested he is in a game. That is independent from gis alignment but being scum inherently make him more invested, although he can get invested day 1 in games as town as well if for example he is excited by the set up or the player list.

I'm not arguing meta based on activity anymore

Key word is "anymore", so you admit you

were

arguing based on activity at some point.

If you were not talking about activity level, what were you referring to here.

His post quality
Ex; his vote on Lavar

And then here is where you switch to talking about post quality, or shortly before here.

So I guess my question after reviewing this is for Dwlee instead, and I don't understand if they are calling me scum for the former or the latter. In 1680 it seems to be neither of those, and is taking the angle that I am omgusing (even though sircakez was incorrect when they said that)

[Dunnstral]

My town reads look like this:

I believe that Bell is a friendly neighbor so town

Malakittens/Rhyme & Reason probably town due to role as well, can look into this more later but not really interested in eliminating there

Actual town reads:

Lukewarm; Not solely due to their claim, I've liked their tone this game. Beyond that, I think a Lukewarm that shows that he is carefully considering things is likely to be town. What I mean by that is that in posts like 1606, 1106 show that he is looking into things being discussed in thread, which I believe is a town tell for Luke.

fireisredsir; The last game I played with fireisredsir was spring fling and I pretty easily came to a townread on them there, same thing here. I believe that they are out of their "scum range" which is (no offense) not very large. In this game if you open their iso they have several posts which are paragraph length and thinking things over in detail. I'm personally comparing to the League game where they were mafia that was talked about earlier as well as Spring fling where they were town.

Val89; I like the analytical style, like to read their thoughts on the game. I like that they point out when other players' posts don't make sense. I think that it is fine that they outted the Mala/R&r thing because scum have a lot more people to catch slip-ups and are additionally keeping an eye out for that by default so they likely noticed it as well, meaning only town would be confused by it.

Kovu: I think that outting the neighborhood like that and switching their read is pretty squarely Kovu as town

Lean town on VP Baltar, Meuh, and Marci. First two because I like some of what they have posted, last one because I liked Luke's recent posts about how this is town marci

[Dunnstral]

i mean, i guess it's partly gut. but it is also something that bell said in spring fling, that dunn as town is more likely to be somewhat dismissive and sassy when points that he deems to be wrong are made against him, and scum dunn tends to be more focused on tearing the points down logically. which, i guess he's done some of that too

I was town in spring fling though, and they made that argument in that game to argue that I was scum (and they were also town).

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

Instead of just saying no you I will go ahead and substantiate my claims. To be clear, I am saying that Titus is lying in her last post.

My last post on site was from before my prod in this game. 351

As for the activity tell, here:

it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

I did fancy shit because why not?



So, I ran all three games that you linked as well as every game that I can remember playing with Dunn through the spread sheet. Calculated Dunn's percentage of all posts made day 1 compared to how many players were in the game, then did conditional formatting to color his higher post rate games green. (because you are positing that lurk dunn = scum dunn) to then see if there is any corrolation.

The conditional formatting guessed incorrectly 4 times, got it right 1 time, and then it did not give a result on his middle of the road game.

If anything, this is wrong more then it is right, and lurk Dunn = town Dunn.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=87781 - Chromatic Ascension, Dunn was Knight Beige
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87638 - True Love
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=83971 - Forest Fire

some (semi-)recent samples of lurkscum Dunn
there could be others from games I didn't keep tabs on but it's hard to verify how his posting rate measures to each game without doing some fancy shit I lack the time for

-GE

I'm not lurking in the first 2 games, I'm town in the last game.

omg. If you were town in Forest fire, that would eliminate the singular correct guess based on posting habits, and it will have been wrong in every single listed game lmao

I'm not saying that my activity here makes me town, but claiming it is my meta to lurk as scum doesn't appear to be correct and I think that the above proves that.

You realize that I literally voted Titus out for making things up?

Like, not a difference in opinion. Literally lying to try to justify pushing me.

And now you're doing the same thing.

You do realize that I am willing to vote you for this. Regardless of what result goldfish has here

And if we lose because two townies made things up to try to eliminate me. And I understandably voted them both out (or died trying)
And, again, not a difference in opinion, but actually just objectively making things up where what they are saying can be proven 100% false.
Then... it's not my fault we lost, I'm not going to be blaming myself, and I will very much be saying "I told you so" after. Or maybe I'll just disappear because I don't really care to argue after the game.

If you still want to go down this route, then by all means. Anyone who wants to do their own homework will notice that Flea does not display any suspicion on me.

----

So for the rest of your post:

No, Flea dying does not point to me.
No, it doesn't make sense for me to be scum with Furtive. I tried to get them eliminated on day 1... and on day. And It was reasonably close both times. It actually could have happened. There isn't really an incentive for a team of me and Furtive to vote for each other here on day 3. And I do plan on voting Furtive, as I am pretty sure they are mafia. I think Cat is probably the most likely partner and would like the tracker to figure that out.

Yes, it does not make sense to track you. Cat might be worried about losing instantly if they are partnered with Furtive, so they could be playing up suspicions on Goldfish/yourself and seeing if anybody bites.

As for the team of Me and Alianna, it doesn't make sense for us to clear you when you were scumreading both of us at the end of day 1. You also called us possible partners. When I voted you on day 2, Alianna brushed it off and said it had no chance of happening.

Spoiler:

I have a cop guilty on you Dunnstral.
Dunnstral: “prove it” :facepalm:

Like, do you really think that Noraa’s observation requires Zir to go out and quote however many posts is acceptable and then break out a pie chart. Few players do that, and the one time I’ve seen it done recently was by Pooky and he was scum arguing for Mastina town who was town.

What Noraa is arguing is something provable by them, cop actions aren't, and that's a fallacious comparison

To be clear, I am saying they are either lying or misinformed, and that what they are claiming is untrue

Your argument is that Noraa shouldn't have to back up their accusations because they're lazy, but the town should still believe them even when it is contested.

Note that I didn't contest what you said about me earlier and ask for proof, because I think it is partially the truth:

I said you counter with more dismissive arguments when you’re town instead of going into “I will quote every post I can see to bury this argument into the ground because it’s wrongo and this person is wrong and I must stop them because it is my mission to correct every person of every misstatement may this world remain pure and holy and free of contradiction. “ -Dunnstrall scum.

Subject: Yggdrasil - Stratum FINAL -

Dunnstrall tends to snap at people that push him. I think his vote is just that. A request for white fire to back up.
I might be oversimplifying a more complex behavior tho.

I regret the MC wagon, not because I think it’s wrong but because I wish we’d done it later in the day so that the game didn’t stall.

Dang, meta is fun

And I mean real meta, the stuff you can link to, not the stuff that is true because you said so.

Incidentally, Bell, can you explain why you are scumreading me here again? I don't understand what is your issue with my questions or why you are continuing to push me here.

[Dunnstral]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

[Dunnstral]

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

[Dunnstral]

@Luke

My invictus will be on gorilla tonight. I don't feel bad about claiming this because I really don't think I will be targeted by mafia or that they benefit from shooting into that. I'm telling you this so you have somewhere to use your power role if you can't coordinate anything before an elimination is reached. I think it would not be a bad idea for a few people to do the same, but that for most people this would be a bad idea.

[Dunnstral]

@Marci, do you plan on giving us any more info or are you gonna make us play 20 questions with you

i was planning to later tonight after work :< do u have anything specific u want my opinions on rn (im on break now : DD) or?

...

That was in reference to these posts:

FUCK ME

I AM SO SORRY IM SUCH A BAD PERSON

1783

[Dunnstral]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

I know we've moved past this, but you said you were sheeping Sircakez' reasons for 1711 but you only bring up Noraa instead. But I had asked you to relate the Sircakez' stuff to here.

As for the appeasing argument, the only post you give an example for is my current posts, and not something that happens before your 1660. Also when I asked you those questions I didn't think you would be able to answer them (and I don't think you really did as I pointed out above).

[Dunnstral]

Also, fair warning to everyone, I definitely will struggle at this pace of a game. I'm super overloaded at work right now.

They are town here

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, what do you think of this turn of events from Luke?

General question, if Luke does vig gorilla, then gorilla gets to use his invictus, correct? As I'm thinking about it, it's slightly confusing to say Luke's kill is an auto-trigger invictus when the first kill part is essential to what an invictus is. What Luke is describing is more like a gained vig shot.

I don't see why a scum vig would announce in thread instead of using their power secretly when somebody makes it obvious on their own who they are going to invictus at night. Unless they were fishing for town credit I guess, but then I still don't know why they would claim the vig part today. In fact I don't think I've ever seen a scum-aligned vig claim to be a vig in thread as opposed to keeping quiet. Not counting serial killers which I have seen do that.

[Dunnstral]

READS I HAVE THAT ACTUALLY MATTER
Dunn - Strongly feel that they should die. gorilla's said some similar stuff to what I'm about to (I have 1473 and 1485 in my notes in particular) but have a nice new condensed version with maybe a couple bonuses, freed from the wallpost swamp of the past.
A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT" instead of actually going over his reads in any detail, and I still have basically no idea what his reads are on the vast majority of the playerlist (he has scumreads on gorilla & cakez, and maybe still on marci I think. he's commented on VPB but as far as I see, not shared a read on him.) All the poking questions day 1 with no reads from him as followups followed by this feels like trying to keep an intentionally low profile and not give useful info for when he does get elim'd/invictus'd in the future. Also I think his push on gorilla is bad and feels more performative on his part than an actual effort to convince people that gorilla is scum and should die.

I definitely agree with the nitpicky/pointless arguing point. Also, now that Luke is out with this nonsense and pairing with Dunn, I am perhaps more swayed to backing the Dunn lim today as a safety measure.

Dunn -- I would like a full reads list from you when you pop up next. Do your best to sort people, and a sentence of reasoning would be great. No need to make cases.

You saw 1723 right

And I believe I've talked about gorilla/cakez/dwlee

Fey, Enchant are null and I don't have a good grasp on them. Fey stands out as not usually being this reserved, I think.
Gammagooey posts are pretty high quality actually but I'm soured that they are pushing me for reasons that I feel are bad. Actually this should maybe be a townlean due to the depth of their posts.

And with that I feel I've talked about everybody today. Are you voting me because you don't want Luke to be able to pair with me?

[Dunnstral]

…>.> I just don’t know how to say this after my last game with Luke but I really think this is their town game because they seem *this* close to having a meltdown and seem pretty mad overall. Whenever they get pushed this has been my experience with town Luke.

But I’ve never played with scum luke.

i don't think its exclusive to town luke

viewtopic.php?p=13383060#p13383060

dunnstral you may take a swing at my ego it’s free.

1. The difference is that Luke was calling people dumbasses in that one versus this one in which they’re trying not to call people dumbasses in this one.

Posts like this are so jarring to me; I don't know what you are referring to but you seem to think I'm going to "take a swing at your ego"

[Dunnstral]

I switched my invictus off of gorilla during the night because I was no longer comfortable with luke shooting there

Am I supposed to interperet the death post above to mean that Vp baltar died at night and invictus shot luke, and Malakittens died at night and invictus shot Dwlee?

[Dunnstral]

I want to say this is Marci's towngame off the top of my head. Not freezing up, replying/responding to a few different things. Seems out of the scope for her from what I recall.

VOTE: Bell

Skimmed Lavar and Bell, Lavar feels... in his own little world sort of deal. Like the read on Dunnstral of all people as potentially shady feels out there in a world where scum!Lavar probably doesn't need to be right now. Is a weird place to fixate. Just seems like he's doing his own thing.

Bell feels on the fringes and like. I dunno. I have an expectation of something "more" as vague as it is, but he feels very shady with the things he's posting and also just like "eh, whatever" to questions, all that. A presence that doesn't really want to be around at all but knows he has to be, and like... throwing out whatever thoughts because he has to, given prior games where he spews out his thoughts and boom everyone reads him right.

@Someone, I think VP asked me about Marci and what she could/couldn't post, compare 213 to like, Holiday Dance Party, where she was a lot more sheepish I feel. Here she's all attitude and bite and I feel that's more of a hallmark of her as town.

I’ve jumped around in vote a few times. I’ve given some takes that I think should be more memorable (Lavar town, Marci town). Not a lot but I’m not going to force myself to give a lot.

Just because you don’t remember it doesn’t mean it’s not there though. Shrug.

Obligatory I still think Lavar is town.

I don’t particularly like the alternative of Marci but I don’t have a great grasp of what else I would do wagonwise. Probably not Luke/Kovu/fire/gorilla and shrug at the rest. My reasons for those names is just memory of goodvibes when I was reading closer than I am now.

VOTE: Marcistar

VOTE: Dwlee

Choo choo.

Fey talks Marci up as town due to meta early on, and brings it back in 735. Then they vote for Marci for seemingly no reason. The top 2 wagons are Lavar and Dwlee at this point, Marci isn't in contention. And then they quickly switch to Dwlee after with no reasoning.

I like fey as well, she keeps asking questions and it seems like those questions are her trying to push the game forward so i think shes towny :good:

i dont think fey seemed scummy, i like what she posted so far she looks like shes trying to solve :angry:

i dont have alot of time to like type up thoughts since im at work for like another 4 hrs, and then ill be sleeping but if u have anything ur curious abt u can juat ask (:
i think gammagooey has a couple of agreeable takes but they piss me off so dont tell them i said that im not sure what i think of them tho aince the agreeable takes are v basic takes
i think kouvs town but i wouldnt trust them leading anything because theyre too emotional about things and too reactivey
balters i would say how self centered he is, i dont like that, so he scummy
fey towny
sircakez scummy, the bandwagoning is not good vibes at all
i dont like vals view of the invixtus mechanic because it reminds me of a diff game i played w him, but otherwise hes mid, he has some good thoughts

idk who else exists

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

also yeah this feels weird idk y tho

fey, because earlier when i was looking at the votes on dwlees wagon her vote stuck out the most to me. it seemed pretty scummy and her other posts regarding dwlee do as well tbhs

On Marci's side, she barely talks abotu fey. Starting with a townread that is not well explained, a long period of silence, and then switching to a scumread which I think is weird because I'm not sure what motivation Marci has to switch reads here when they are gaining pressure unless it's to distance. I don't think Fey was a likely elimination, and in fact Dwlee flipped town and was almost eliminated but Marci didn't vote there.

The interactions between the two feel partnered to me.

VOTE: Fey

[Dunnstral]

Now, why in the world Luke would vig shoot mala? no freaking clue…

Because you faked a clear on sircakez and made it look like somebody was lying about their role on balance

[Dunnstral]

They apparently like Marci because of Luke’s said she’s town, unlike the others who they scumread on their own merit.

It wasn't because "Luke said she's town"

I agreed with the post Luke made. Also Marci really stepped up her scum game from the last time I've seen it, where it was really obvious.

[Dunnstral]

I literally didn’t, Cakez added me to a hood, and I needed yall to not yeet him so we could get someone else in the hood, so don’t come at me for “faking a clear” when you have Luke vig shoot Mala who was claiming RR clear.

Are you saying that you never said that cakez was clear town?

[Dunnstral]

Dunn why are you siding with cakez here? Cause it’s sounding like you’re taking his side

Quote where this happened

[Dunnstral]

Was that game Tarot? If so then that read makes a lot more sense. That game is the exception to the rule though, she’s less obvious than that in basically all of her scum games. She’s fooled me before

It was Tarot, yes

[Dunnstral]

Lukewarm claimed to be the special role and nobody contested that, so it does seem more likely that the special role is either in the hands of mafia or not in the game at all

[Dunnstral]

I’m a two shot detective.

I am a Novice Traffic Analyst.

Plus the 1 shot cop and the friendly neighbor

I think that this is too much investigative/clearing power and that Fey is fake claiming

[Dunnstral]

Fey, can you point to any aspect of your play that can show you are the role you are claiming? Not necessarily softs, but like pointing to something you did and say you had a reason for it.

I think you should go ahead and tell us who you investigated, if only so we can see your thought process

[Dunnstral]

And what did you think of Mala having an inno on R&R and Kovu having an inno on Sircakez yesterday? At least that is how things were looking, so how did you rationalize that?

[Dunnstral]

Tangential note but I’m also proud of marci for improving so much as she’s played.

Yeah this

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count 1.7

FLAVOR

I first took power 12 years ago, the only man to make it out of the bloodbath with his head still above the water. I always thought I knew how I'd go. I fought like hell to prevent it, sure, but there was never any doubt in my mind that I'd die violently and gruesomely, like an animal.

That first year was especially frightening. Some called me harsh, and they're right. I did things I wasn't proud of to consolidate my power. When the citizens of Selah rose up in revolt, it scared the shit out of me. It was like I spent 10 minutes slipping around on ice, only to have a rug pulled out from under me the second I got off the rink.

The years of Bugatti Mafia encroachment were small fry in comparison, but they were persistent...and always still dangerous. Even they won't touch this, though..

Who could have seen this coming? It's not the 1950s anymore. Criminal outfits can't go against corporations with more economic output than entire countries, not anymore. We're not the cartels, our heyday's long past. You try to extort a company of Tesla's size and you'll have a whole army of feds swarming down on you. No partnerships, either: These people are serious. Audits, shareholders, consultants, federal and state inspectors, the works. Where's the business in that? Siphoning off a couple of "faulty" batteries from the line? Hell no.

Still, there are other ways to get them to leave. This is still our turf, and I'm not looking forward to a peaceful retirement.

Player	Votes
LavarManos (7)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), VP Baltar (798), fireisredsir (800), Rhyme and Reason (801), Val89 (803), Meuh (822)
marcistar (3)	Gammagooey (497), Datisi (703), SirCakez (717)
VP Baltar (2)	Fey (560), Dwlee99 (692)
Datisi (2)	marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)
Bell (1)	Lady Lambdadelta (175)
SirCakez (1)	Bell (301)
Lady Lambdadelta (1)	Enchant (759)
Rhyme and Reason (1)	Kovu (880)
Not Voting (2)	Dunnstral, Malakittens (130)

With 20 players alive, it takes 11 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-03 13:48:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	0	10
Fey	0	10
fireisredsir	0	10
Lady Lambdadelta	0	10
Malakittens	0	10
Lukewarm	0	10
Dunnstral	0	10
Rhyme and Reason	0	10
Meuh	0	10
Val89	0	10
marcistar	0	10
Dwlee99	0	10
Gammagooey	0	10
Kovu	0	10
VP Baltar	0	10
Datisi	0	10
LavarManos	0	10
Enchant	0	10
SirCakez	0	10
gorilla	0	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

Obligatory I still think Lavar is town.

I don’t particularly like the alternative of Marci but I don’t have a great grasp of what else I would do wagonwise. Probably not Luke/Kovu/fire/gorilla and shrug at the rest. My reasons for those names is just memory of goodvibes when I was reading closer than I am now.

VOTE: Marcistar

Why do you vote for marcistar here, and not Datisi?

It seems like you townread or at least townlean marcistar, and scumlean Datisi at this point. Further, Marci and Datisi are voting for each other.

[Dunnstral]

Traffic analyst gets a result on what, friendly neighbor, both neighbors, the neighborizor, and whoever they add to their neighborhood?

VOTE: SirCakez

I understand Val's vote now, this is a better vote for us today; whoever Sircakez adds to their neighborhood is a fake guilty to the traffic analyst, so we should eliminate them as soon as possible. It also makes sense for mafia to be in a neighborhood as a fake fake guilty.

Val, did you check someone who is still alive?

Kovu, who else is in the neighborhood with SirCakez?

[Dunnstral]

I'm not 100% that Traffic Analyst gets a false guilty on Friendly Neighbor

[Dunnstral]

I’m in the neighborhood with the two of them now.

I know, I meant that the TA would get a false guilty on FN because it sends messages to other players through the mod. I was evaluating the TA claim. But then I said that I'm not certain that FN counts for TA.

[Dunnstral]

I mean, a doctor claim is going to have a lot more reason to keep it alive than “I am a detective who has used all of their shots.”

If I cared about preserving myself I would have lied and said I had more available.

I simple don't believe you.

YOU LITERALLY HAD 1/18 CHANCE TO FIND ATTACKING MAFIA VIA DETECTIVE AND YOU USING IT INSTANTLY?

Fucking why

Does detective even work N1.

Yeah but detective only checks the current night and the previous night. So it checks 2 nights total. So using it on night 1 is suboptimal because it is not clearing and you are only looking for the guilty check.

[Dunnstral]

Yeah. I can see whoever tried to kill that night.

And the previous night?

[Dunnstral]

They apparently like Marci because of Luke’s said she’s town, unlike the others who they scumread on their own merit.

It wasn't because "Luke said she's town"

I agreed with the post Luke made. Also Marci really stepped up her scum game from the last time I've seen it, where it was really obvious.

[Dunnstral]

I have a 1500+ post hood with fire,

???

[Dunnstral]

Now, why in the world Luke would vig shoot mala? no freaking clue…

Because you faked a clear on sircakez and made it look like somebody was lying about their role on balance

Also this is such bs

Are you gaslighting?

[Dunnstral]

There is overwhelming evidence that this happened in the thread

Saying it didn't happen won't make it go away, and it's insulting that you two think we are idiots and can't go back and clearly see where it happened

[Dunnstral]

"faked a clear" I didn't see Kovu claim a clear anywhere
Strong evidence I was town yeah but not like a cop clear

I mean, I have info that I'm almost certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

I mean, I have info that I'm almost certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

Remember in Ktane when you lied multiple times as town. You should stop doing that.

it's not a lie this game, I'm quite certain it'll get revealed later, but yeah, people seriously need to stop thinking cakez is an actual wagon

like if you need to, just go lim me, then sheep me on cakez being town

If you want to shoot cakez, I would invictus with you there.

no

Stop faking clears on people.

IT'S NOT FAKE, LITERALLY STOP SAYING IT IS.

genuinely so freaking annoying, like I have a legit clear, then yall are all "Mala's soft is real!! must act as it is!!!" and mala just won't confirm it's real/do anything, yet we're not going "Get RR!!!" like, seriously. just leave cakez alone and stop freaking assuming I'm faking it

If you want to shoot cakez, I would invictus with you there.

no

Stop faking clears on people.

IT'S NOT FAKE, LITERALLY STOP SAYING IT IS.

This isn’t what someone with a real result would say, they would say, “actually yeah I lied” and then when you get shot, you demonstrated that you lied about lying.

... fine I'm lying. you happy?
(I genuinely still have clearing info for cakez, but must not be real so whatever)

Kovu that's why you don't fake PRs, people will think you are compulsive liar.
Also i am innocent child, thinking about revealing.

Guess fun isn't allowed when you're a stupid VT every single game... like, I finally have a cool role.. yet no one will just leave cakez alone, like, there's a giant Dwlee wagon, do people like it? hate it? like, go there sure, or marci or meuh. I don't care. but apparently my name has to be Mala and I have to do absolutely nothing to have my clears respected

I’m not assuming you’re faking it. I think you’re taking it because you’ve faked clears in the past and showed zero inclination you were going to take any feed back about it or even really acknowledged people’s concerns.

Sure thanks.

why do I care about your concerns with my clear?

you are not getting anymore info from me. cakez is town. do not invictus him

[Dunnstral]

And nothing was faked anyways it's not like it was pulled out of nowhere Kovu had reason to think I was town from role

Why does your role make you town?

[Dunnstral]

Kovu I'm not going after you.

[Dunnstral]

Not as scum, at least.

[Dunnstral]

While I'm a bit frustrated about the Cakez clear stuff, I don't really think it's worth the discourse. Doesn't actually help us solve, so we can talk about it post-game if we still want to

OK so let me reiterate the parts that I think are important for solving then.

1) Cakez goes along with the fake clear on day 2. On day 3 they say they have no idea it was a fake clear and try to downplay it like it was just a strong read. Kovu made multiple allusions towards this being a role-based clear. Cakez is trying to frame this as something it is not.

2) Cakez believes that Kovu is correct to townread their role of neighborizor on day 2. No reason is given for why that is a valid assumption, even before the Traffic Analyst claim came into play.

3) Cakez admits that their play in the neighborhood is bad, but thinks it is natural for Kovu to have utmost confidence in them being town. They don't seem to have any suspicion towards Kovu. This feels unnatural.

[Dunnstral]

I don't think scum can manage to get up to a 1500 post private topic

[Dunnstral]

Cakez does not have a 1500 post private topic, right?

I also suspect that the length of your pt was not conveyed to sircakez in his own pt, so it would not be information that he is basing his judgement off of.

[Dunnstral]

Bell do you agree?

[Dunnstral]

[Dunnstral]

I'm a tesla fanatic

[Dunnstral]

Defense for what?

[Dunnstral]

Can you quote for me what you think I should respond to, SirCakez?

[Dunnstral]

Can you quote for me what you think I should respond to, SirCakez?

What do you even need? Say why you're town dude. It's what I've been doing today

So can you or not?

Because you didn't do what I asked here, you tried to turn it on me. I'm guessing you can't then and you were blowing smoke earlier.

[Dunnstral]

Can you quote for me what you think I should respond to, SirCakez?

I mean it's kind of obvious given the votecount that you're likely to get elim'd today and you're not trying particularly hard to prevent it - I don't even think it's a scumtell but it seems kind of dumb regardless of your alignment

You seem to think Fey+Cakez are the most likely scum - do you think they're likely to both be scum together? or are they just your two strongest scumreads? I personally think it's likely that you & Fey are scum together, do you think that's reasonable from my perspective or dumb for any reason aside from you starting the day with a vote on her?

You've got big "do what you want I don't care" vibes going at the moment but I feel like that's not gonna be beneficial for you here regardless of whether you're town or scum compared to sharing some extra thoughts on the game.

OK.

Start from the beginning. Explain to me why I'm likely to be scum with Fey. You haven't done that yet. So yeah, it's dumb considering I pushed her and you have no other explanations. I'm not sure abotu Fey right now, I think we should get Cakez

[Dunnstral]

Hello future ghost.

I think Kovu is the potentially the only player for whom that fact slipped by, if that was in fact legit. If the entire scum team missed it, they deserve to lose.

We also have a living bodyguard claim that should be protecting you

[Dunnstral]

I don't particularly believe the claim. I guess I'll just say now I'm a bodyguard. I don't think multiple protectives in a game is full-stop impossible: the first setup had two town bodyguards and one mafia one. But a doctor in combination with a bodyguard is a bit weird, even if the doctor is gated.

It's also why I was...not particularly concerned with being townread when I was getting wagoned, because my role has the potential to be self-resolving if I guess the correct nightkill target.

I was on Lukewarm night 1, because he was in my top townreads after Day 1 (how times change), was reasonably active, and didn't seem to be suspected by many people, so seemed a potential nightkill target. Kicking myself for not protecting LLD after she got N1'ed in DEFCON, but I really didn't think there was any chance she'd be the nightkill target after posting only 12 times, which is also why I was theorizing that most of the day 1 wagons were wrong. My invictus had been on dwlee, because I thought it most useful to resolve the counter wagon with the invictus kill.

Here

[Dunnstral]

That is not claimed

[Dunnstral]

I think your analysis fails to consider that we were both low posting on day 1, so you say "look, they ignored each other" a few times but it doesn't mean anything. Likewise I didn't push anybody strongly on day 1, and you're pointing to that for me being aligned with Marci. I don't mention Fey in my reads list because you asked me for my townreads and Fey was not one of those. Later I say they are null which explains why I also haven't pushed them either.

The page 3 stuff and the alts in a different game stuff I don't think are good points. Fey acting shady around me might be true, but that's not on my hands.

I don't think 1745 or 2061 are significant. Or rather, you haven't assigned any meaning to them. 1745 is a dig at Dwlee and also pointing out the obvious flaw in Dwlee's argument

[Dunnstral]

You said earlier that sircakez and fey are not likely to be aligned. Why? In fact Fey mentions SirCakez ONE TIME in the first 2 days of the game, and it's here:

Also I do think the Dwlee wagon is probably all pure, at max one scum on it. I'm working off the assumption that there are 4 scum in this game so maybe one on the Dwlee or not voting, the rest on the Lavar wagon to push it through because it really wasn't going anywhere. Probably in Gamma/Cakez if there is one but eh. I don't really feel like Kovu as scum just decides to start an EOD competing wagon to a town one. Just doesn't... feel like her from experience, but this is without a lot of back referencing.

The next time they mention SirCakez, it's today, on day 3, and it's a vote with little explanation beyond looking at the vc. And then they say to invictus shoot SirCakez after they flip, but that doesn't mean anything if they flip mafia, obviously. And then they move their vote from SirCakez from Gamma -> Unvote -> Enchant, even though they were talking about SirCakez definitely needing to go earlier.

So I'd say this is pretty plausible. At the very least there is

Cakez doesn't make sense as scum with my two strongest scumreads of Fey/Dunn

Why?

also if you swap Fey and enchant we're at almost the same place

also I think Val was towny even before the claim, what're your issues there? I still think you can easily be scum btw but S_S thinks you're pretty hard town so I'm deferring to him

~Rhyme

Fey & Dunn have both been going after Cakez from Day 2 and have continued to go after him today, Cakez has been pushing Dunn pretty solidly and repeatedly pushed to kill marci - i guess it's technically possible that their solution to salvage the game is/was "turn it into a big bussing clusterfuck" but I feel like it's rarer for scumteams to actually go for that than maybe it should be?

Val I also had as a town-lean and I haven't done much rereading on, though I don't think from memory that there's a ton to go on in previous days, just a few comments to marci that I think were meh contrasted with his day 2 posts seeming town but not outstandingly so. Regardless I'm confident on my Fey+Dunn reads that at least one of them is scum there and I personally think likely both, whereas assuming that I'm right on both of them my 4th scum read is more guessing than anything I'm willing to stake on atm.

OK, I'm going to do the thing.

Quote where Fey goes after SirCakez on day 2.

[Dunnstral]

I'll save people the effort. Day 2 starts at post 1154 and ends at 2225. Here are all of Fey's posts during day 2:

Spoiler:

You should probably explain that.

The info we get from it, the people behind the push and the nature of it being a flashwagon all point to it being a better wagon than Dwlee.

I don't think so. How are any of the factors you mentioned different between my wagon and the dwlee wagon?

(gorilla, Lukewarm, fireisredsir, Val89, Meuh, Dwlee99, Datisi, Bell) are the Lavar voters.
(Kovu, Fey, Lady Lambdadelta, Gammagooey, VP Baltar, SirCakez) are the Dwlee voters.

Now that's from Lukewarm's votecount and it was different at the time you asked, but the general idea stays the same. People I generally townread more and trust their judgement more on Lavar than on Dwlee.

I guess the Dwlee wagon was kind of a flashwagon? Though it seemed less fast, and is less good in response to another flashwagon if that makes any sense :lol:

People have more clearly defined their positions regarding you than regarding Dwlee. Thus, it gives more information.

The lack of re-evaluation in the face of a townflip and having said this is an atrocious look. You generally townread and trust them more, and they were wrong. But instead of considering "hm, these people I voted with, we killed a townie, what's going on there..." you instead choose to ignore that and go "yeah I think scum was farming towncred"?

That's the least charitable stance I think you could take; it's logical but in the context of a townflip you're just continuing down the same path you laid out yesterday which so far hasn't went so well.

Why do you think I'm scum on Dwlee's wagon, again? Why is Dwlee even town to begin with?

VOTE: Meuh

Val, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts now that Datisi is dead.

Same for you marci, since you both kind of tunneled there to the exclusion of a lot else yesterday.

Oh ok, you’re scum

Baltar immediately taking advantage of the death to shade other people

Equally I think this is an uncharitable evaluation of VP's post. Datisi is dead, people had takes around Datisi, some strong. It's natural to want to see how these people view things differently now that a slot that took up a lot of their thoughts is dead.

Player	Votes
LavarManos (11)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)
Dwlee99 (5)	Kovu (1009), Fey (1011), Lady Lambdadelta (1013), Gammagooey (1022), SirCakez (1034)
Datisi (2)	LavarManos (950), marcistar (1116)
Not Voting (2)	Malakittens (130), Rhyme and Reason (964)

I'm about here right now, readwise; I feel like a lot of these null ones will go one way or another throughout the day.

Few thoughts:

I don't think Dwlee's posts that you just quoted feel like town, Meuh. It's just justification for the Lavar votes and a bit of reconciliatory posting in 1054, but those don't do anything for me.

I also think LLD dying here means that she was the nightkill who shot Datisi, rather than the other way around. I think that points to what content she did give having been either 1) pointing correctly to Dwlee/Bell or 2) a frame, which... eh? I'm less inclined to think mafia wanted to frame than just kill someone who could exert a great deal of pressure on them when she's town.

Also I do think the Dwlee wagon is probably all pure, at max one scum on it. I'm working off the assumption that there are 4 scum in this game so maybe one on the Dwlee or not voting, the rest on the Lavar wagon to push it through because it really wasn't going anywhere. Probably in Gamma/Cakez if there is one but eh. I don't really feel like Kovu as scum just decides to start an EOD competing wagon to a town one. Just doesn't... feel like her from experience, but this is without a lot of back referencing.

Feels like I am doing some preflipping mentally so I'll sort that out through the day (Meuh scum attacking VP -> point to VP town but this is flimsy).

That's about it right now.

p-edit: I highly disagree with the idea that Lady's posting points to the people she voted being town. That seems backwards to me.

p-edit: I highly disagree with the idea that Lady's posting points to the people she voted being town. That seems backwards to me.

huh in what way? in my mind scum would avoid killing people who scumread them, so they don't die

Despite the Invictus shot being a threat, I don't think that people are going to just say "well, they -might- shoot us, so we can't kill them". It's probably on their minds the same way that catching any PR is, but... you can't just let them float along. Something about Lady's posting has to be threatening enough, I believe, to give them a reason to want her dead beyond just "well she's not gonna Invictus any of us so let's get her."

I’m struggling to word this but I think it’s a dangerous assumption to think a dead person’s scumreads are clearing; there is always the potential to be shot at night the same way you can be tracked/copped/etc, but like.

For LLD specifically I’m willing for now to accept that Bell is cleared for now by virtue of his actions. Sure. Bell was one of the people she suspected and did so with more... interaction? To it. Oomph. I think it is perhaps reasonable to assume she would have shot Bell... a town clearing PR.

But why exactly in this situation would a mafia Dwlee be cleared?? Like everyone’s kind of hand waving it imo. “Cleared because scumread” is such an insane thought process to me even factoring in the mechanics.

Also because “clearing” LLD’s scumreads narrows down the POE for a wagon that flipped town D1 and that is...???

Like to me this is indulging a bit in WIFOM I guess which, nose wrinkle, but everyone is kind of just going “yep they’re alllll cleared” and isn’t that... a risk worth taking for mafia if they can feel confident they won’t get shot, let alone any role that could protect people from a shot/stop it/etc?

Like if anyone has a ~really strong towncase~ or something for Dwlee I’d actually appreciate it versus just giving the pass for reasons I don’t think are strong. Meuh gave some at day start but I didn’t find it compelling.

Also it’s pretty hurtful even though it shouldn’t be to be told that because I don’t come to the same conclusions that I am... not trying to apply my logic even if it goes against the logic being seen as “correct” which is uh, perhaps why I might seem upsetish right now.

(Yes whatever random “AtE” but whether or not people agree with me I think it is just bad to clear on night kills alone and basically just feels like an entire aspect of why people die is being thrown out entirely.)

A Bell one was more telegraphed imho given her final posts which put more meat to the idea she disliked his posting versus a vote on Dwlee. Also that she had voted Bell before.

I do actually think though this might be more emblematic of my mafia game funnily enough because on Ydrasse I’m pretty go with the flow-y and throw thoughts out there but don’t try to do as much as I do here whereas as scum I am almost always doing something.

Maybe this is just a more lowkey FFXIV for me or something. But shrug I do t think that I can offer more than self rambling without back checking my games.

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

VOTE: Dwlee

Avengers assemble.

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I've skimmed, ish, will try to be around later.

Idle thought that I had before but this post is weird. Kinda feels like wrong reasons irritation or not even irritation but like. *Hand waves.* Something in that world to me.

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I've skimmed, ish, will try to be around later.

Idle thought that I had before but this post is weird. Kinda feels like wrong reasons irritation or not even irritation but like. *Hand waves.* Something in that world to me.

Wrong reasons irritation implies I'm town because the kill spec was all to say I was town

Irritation isn’t the right word but it’s the closest I can find to say this post feels like you’re looking at the town speculating about the night kill you would or wouldn’t make and this quip is like a bit... TMI I guess is better wording, that you know you didn’t have input on a night kill but you were witness to it all.

Sure, that’s a possibility too.

But the vibe I got erred towards it being out of place/weird feeling because it just was like... “Of all the things to comment on?”

Literally anything. You haven’t really given much as to your reads/thoughts/...anything beyond a few fleeting posts that aren’t helpful in terms of like. Solving. (Why am I partnered with/nightkill comments are interesting/the tell thing with Gamma.)

Like you just don’t seem to care... at all about doing so much as voting and I don’t see a reason not to pressure you. I get that you’re busy IRL but even the popins you do throw in are... tepid.

I was Dwlee’s partner in Geriatric, lmao.

Anyways.

Don’t be feely vote for Dwlee.

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

Skimmed blah blah still want kill Dwlee. Kinda feel like Meuh has +equity if Dwlee flips maf or whatever the kids say for the back and forth on Dunn and Dwlee but now “reconsidering” and then going to Dwlee at the end where their elim feels a lot more probable. Or maybe Meuh is just a waffle wolf. Whom knows!

Skimmed blah blah still want kill Dwlee. Kinda feel like Meuh has +equity if Dwlee flips maf or whatever the kids say for the back and forth on Dunn and Dwlee but now “reconsidering” and then going to Dwlee at the end where their elim feels a lot more probable. Or maybe Meuh is just a waffle wolf. Whom knows!

Help me bus question mark

Three dots followed by thinking emoji.

I’m pretty tunneled in on you dying today.

If people want to kill Meuh I’ll entertain the wagon.

@Dwlee I’m like half paying attention but I think that your vibes here aren’t what I’m used to from you being town and it did harken a bit to the Geriatric. I disagree with the appeasy characterization and overall Im just eh I guess.

Can give more attention l8r.

Scum me has fun and goes wild.

As it is I'm waiting 'till tomorrow to get into things, yes I have a reason, yes you can ask me about it tomorrow.

I sure did.

Unwnd's my little scrunkly.

Scum me has fun and goes wild.

As it is I'm waiting 'till tomorrow to get into things, yes I have a reason, yes you can ask me about it tomorrow.

I don't actually remember scum you ever having fun. But I'm glad you probably had fun as scum at one point and I hope this is true irregardless.

I'm powerful now and openwolf.

Awoo.

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

Fey mentions SirCakez one time during day 2. This is the full post:

Player	Votes
LavarManos (11)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)
Dwlee99 (5)	Kovu (1009), Fey (1011), Lady Lambdadelta (1013), Gammagooey (1022), SirCakez (1034)
Datisi (2)	LavarManos (950), marcistar (1116)
Not Voting (2)	Malakittens (130), Rhyme and Reason (964)

I'm about here right now, readwise; I feel like a lot of these null ones will go one way or another throughout the day.

Few thoughts:

I don't think Dwlee's posts that you just quoted feel like town, Meuh. It's just justification for the Lavar votes and a bit of reconciliatory posting in 1054, but those don't do anything for me.

I also think LLD dying here means that she was the nightkill who shot Datisi, rather than the other way around. I think that points to what content she did give having been either 1) pointing correctly to Dwlee/Bell or 2) a frame, which... eh? I'm less inclined to think mafia wanted to frame than just kill someone who could exert a great deal of pressure on them when she's town.

Also I do think the Dwlee wagon is probably all pure, at max one scum on it. I'm working off the assumption that there are 4 scum in this game so maybe one on the Dwlee or not voting, the rest on the Lavar wagon to push it through because it really wasn't going anywhere. Probably in Gamma/Cakez if there is one but eh. I don't really feel like Kovu as scum just decides to start an EOD competing wagon to a town one. Just doesn't... feel like her from experience, but this is without a lot of back referencing.

Feels like I am doing some preflipping mentally so I'll sort that out through the day (Meuh scum attacking VP -> point to VP town but this is flimsy).

That's about it right now.

p-edit: I highly disagree with the idea that Lady's posting points to the people she voted being town. That seems backwards to me.

And here is Fey's day 3 push on SirCakez:

Quick glance at EOD VC, I’ll support a Meuh wagon too.

VOTE: SirCakez

If you’re going to fucking vote me put your Invictus shot on SirCakez.

If you’re going to fucking vote me put your Invictus shot on SirCakez.

I will put this on every single page.

Friendly reminder SirCakez should be shot tonight.

VOTE: Gamma

If this was Gamma playing well and slipping I am So Sorry.

Laaaaaaame.

UNVOTE:

So we should vote Enchant.

VOTE: Enchanr

We should just stop saying blah blah Invictus Enchant he will be taken care of and just kill him.

Which starts out with little explanation being given, just a push and saying to kill SirCakez after them (which as I said, doesn't actually mean anything if Fey flips scum, it certainly doesn't mean the two can't be scum together). And ends in smoothly transitioning to somebody else when given the chance. Nobody even called them out on it! If they're so sure SirCakez is flipping scum, why are they voting for Enchant right now and going completely silent as I almost get eliminated?

I know I talked about fey a lot there but don't let that distract you from the fact that Gammagooey is making things up as they go along. Something that I've proven I will almost always spot and call out, by the way.

Heck, they spend hours meticulously crafting their walls of text in their private topic, but they didn't spend a few minutes using the search function in Fey's iso and just winged it and said these two can't be scum together

without actually checking

?

[Dunnstral]

Or is Gammagooey arguing that posts 1178, 2282, 2368, 2377, 2466 combined is enough to say that they "don't make sense" as scum together?

[Dunnstral]

Can someone scumcase me further than "Enchant is scum", i love reading jokes.

@Gammagooey
@SirCakez
@Fey

You are the designated someones, as the three pushing Enchant in some capacity today. Give us some reasoning and don't just ignore this.

[Dunnstral]

Feels more like his scum meta again

Prove it

Show us how that's my scum meta

I easily could and you know that

You cannot. Talk is cheap, less blustering about how you 'could' do something.

Here is where we left off SirCakez. The ball is in your court.

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

In Slaughter Hour Dunn was scum who I spent a good amount of time pushing before he got killed

VOTE: dunnstral
I think this is now my strongest scumread
He is playing to his scum meta to a T - drive-by posting, lack of investment, few memorable posts or pushes
I can't really think of a scum team in this playerlist that doesn't have Dunn in it while I could see Peta or Unwnd not being in one

Unwnd if you are town here I could really use your thoughts on Dunn

Null

Thought town for a minute but changed my mind. Don't want to think about right now. Confident in solving later.

like this is one of those things that gives me pause w/unwnd because it seems like a weirdly artificial avoidance of Dunn when he just dropped big reads on most of the other players

like I make definite statements but I am open to changing my mind
i'm not some deathtunneler
no one has presented any reason for Dunn to be town so why would I change my mind on that?

as seen here

VOTE: SirCakez

Basically don't think Skitter scum defends Cakez the way she has if Cakez is scum

i would not make that assumption


granted on a gut level she's still town but i have nothing deeper until we get some form of actual flips and voting

Yeah alright I'll discard it

Are you fine with voting Dunn off? Assume no based on your posts

I'm not being voted off, I'm being voted into a duel. You should probably know that I'm, like, 70% likely to win anything that isn't complete rng here, even at a disadvantage, if we're being completely honest. Just saying. Oh also Cakez is scum.

then he IMMEDIATELY responds with OMGUS and starts trying to discredit me
EXACTLY what he's doing here guys

I also feel very comfortable with my townread on Lukewarm. I'm treating Kovu as town for reasons previously discussed. I still think Marci is more likely town than not.

I don't pretend to be able to read enchant particularly well, but their votes and other content we have has all made at least sense to me, neither am I detecting any difference between enchant here and town!enchant in the games I have seen. I have some sympathy for the argument that enchant will be a difficult sort and we might need to consider dealing with it sooner or later, but I think they deserve more of a chance for something else to happen to make that alignment more clear, and I'm not interested in a vote there today.

I want people to actually start reading my posts, so I will give justification elsewhere, but I wouldn't vote Dunn today either. I could probably be convinced to join a wagon on anyone else not mentioned, but my strong preference is for SirCakez, as indicated by my vote.

like all my scumspects suddenly developed scumreads on me after I laid out my scumpool yesterday and I don't think it's a coincidence

I would very much like to kill Cakez today if anyone else is interested.

Like, here he is pushing the idea that scum would scum read him for scum reading scum. Ignores the fact that he town binned Dunn Day 1, but Dunn was pushed him.

[Dunn shading Cakez, while cakez is still calling dunn town]

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

I ignored it because I've gotten tons of towntells from you earlier on so I didn't see the relevance

[]

It also ignores the people who are scum reading him that are not in his scum pool. (Me, I am talking about me. He has done nothing but call me town, but is then calling other people suspicious for doing something that I am also doing).

Yeah and did Dunn spend any time day 1 pushing me? no he didn't. has he spent most of today sitting on me? yeah he has. what changed in the meantime? not rocket science

I didn't say people scumreading me are scum so your last bit doesn't make any sense
I'm saying that I think scum want to get rid of me at this point, assuming my scumreads rn are correct

Yeah and did Dunn spend any time day 1 pushing me? no he didn't. has he spent most of today sitting on me? yeah he has. what changed in the meantime? not rocket science

This is wrong.
He started scum reading you at the end of day 1. You were town reading him at the time. You scum reading him clearly had nothing to do with him scum reading you, since they happened in the other order. If anything, it looks like you OMGUS'ed him.

He is not sitting on you today, he has literally never voted you. He is voting gorilla.

I didn't say people scumreading me are scum so your last bit doesn't make any sense
I'm saying that I think scum want to get rid of me at this point, assuming my scumreads rn are correct

My point was that it felt like you were selectively applying things. Like, I saw your comment, but then no hint at you second guessing your read on me, and I immediately remembered this from Dunn day 1

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

It does feel like you are doing this imo.

Okay I re-ISOed Dunn and they have not been on me as much as I thought
I will still stand by their recent reaction to me being bad

Here is where you try to bring up meta again after that. It ends up being factually wrong in the way you are comparing the two games such that what you are comparing to hadn't actually happened in this game at all. It immediately gets called out by Lukewarm in the following post 1610. You go on to say I wasn't on you "as much as you thought" even though this is a binary yes/no you got wrong, and dropped the meta point in favor of "their recent reaction".

Now you're back to meta again. And there's no way you can have this case as scum. Except, what is your meta case right now?

[Dunnstral]

And that's why I said if he wants something to respond to say how this is not exactly like what I expect him to do as scum here

As per your case, it's been established that what you expect me to do as scum is not something that I did this game.

[Dunnstral]

I mean, that's unfortunate, but sure -- I'll take that over nothing

-defended Lavar all day d1 when he was the default mislim
-correctly read and pushed marci d2
-the stuff I said about how I wouldn't have picked Bell if I were scum in the hood
-continued to townread Luke despite being pushed by him and Kovu trying to convince me he was scum in the hood
-my reasoning for Dunn!scum is not something I would have pulled out as scum

You were voting Dwlee at the end of day 1, and you went off on the lavar voters, talking abotu how right you were and how there was scum on that wagon.

You were voting a different town wagon, and you are really embellishing how you protected lavar and how this makes you town.

Also, Luke was claiming vigilante, so there is obvious benefits to not go aggro on him as scum

[Dunnstral]

Player	Votes
LavarManos (11)	gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99 (953), Datisi (962), Bell (1014), Dunnstral (1090), VP Baltar (1123), Enchant (1134)
Dwlee99 (5)	Kovu (1009), Fey (1011), Lady Lambdadelta (1013), Gammagooey (1022), SirCakez (1034)
Datisi (2)	LavarManos (950), marcistar (1116)
Not Voting (2)	Malakittens (130), Rhyme and Reason (964)

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: lavar

Late day surprise wagon! My favorite.

oh HECK yeah let's go

VOTE: Lavar

Why is LLD on this list and not RR?

Why would we be on the list? Before this post basically nobody had called us town.

This bit is something I would see myself post as scum tbh

I can go find examples of me saying similar stuff as town if you'd like (but only if it would help, it's time-consuming). Or we can just ask the many other people in the game who are familiar with me if it's AI.

I very much want to see a counterwagon to marci for reasons I already laid out, so even though I just got town vibes on Lavar I think it's proper to VOTE: Lavar

I haven't heard from Mena yet but I would expect him to agree with me.

-Reason

I don't want Marci. I realise my opinion on the matter might not count for much when I've been floated as an alternative, but I'll give it, since my lack of involvement in the wagon so far is probably clue enough as gamma pointed out previously.

I got a slight town ping from 40, although I accept that sort of thing could come from scum surprised a made-up read was endorsed by a townie, I also think it would be some co-incidence to hit the same ping on the 8 players posted pre-marci entrance on page 1. My initial reaction to Lukewarms' push there was that is was opportunistic garbage, and seeing datisi wholeheartedly jump on and endorse it with 'lolscum' whilst trying to give justification (albeit shit ones) for everyone else sealed the deal for me that the case was crap. Having seen luke temper and then reverse it leads me to believe the case there was initially deliberately exaggerated and oversold, and in truth is probably +town for luke as well as marci.

I've been voting datisi since "RVS" too, although it was never actually an RVS vote. I've deliberately chosen to be cagey about my reads, which may have led to the impression there is a lack of scum hunting going on, too. Those are the reasons I see given for the wagon now, and I can't see them as scummy because I know there is at least one genuine thought process that results in those same outward signs.

I've not given too much though to LavarManos since I noted datisi's strange justification for that read, which when examined I strongly disagreed with, and thought had to be basically invented. I might have been hasty there, if for no other reason that nothing prevents scum from inventing reasons for giving a 'slightly scummy maybe?' read on a partner.

If this is the two we are going with;

VOTE: LavarManos

All of these people are null to scum - over half of the wagon and all of the later votes. Definitely could be scum driven.

Not a fan of this defense in hindsight either

[Dunnstral]

Maybe Dunn's town and this is like Enchant/Cakez/hidden wolf
I wonder if Fey bussing Cakez is like an actual possibility or if that wouldn't make sense regarding her push, I should check it out again

Can we just get like a Dunn lim through and point our invictus in the POE?

It's unlikely we don't flip any scum that way

[Dunnstral]

I still want Cakez to say what the meta argument is. Or what they are talking about. Or just admit they are spouting nonsense.

[Dunnstral]

I will respond to Gamma later

[Dunnstral]

I guess I was wrong on sircakez.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet except by gorilla themself: If there is a roleblocker why was Bell allowed to friendly neighbor on night 1, and Luke fire their vig on night 2, and why was malakittens so quick to be eliminated by the scum team if they could roleblock there and it wasn't even certain that they were a pr at all

[Dunnstral]

Vote Count 3.2

This is another one of those "Flavor VC way later" counts sorry everyone

Player	Votes
Dunnstral (6)	gorilla (2444), Kovu (2528), SirCakez (2535), Gammagooey (2535), fireisredsir (2553), Meuh (2554)
SirCakez (2)	Dunnstral (2264), Bell (2470)
Fey (1)	Enchant (2260)
Not Voting (3)	Rhyme and Reason (2404), Val89 (2486), Fey (2527)

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-21 01:00:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	170	10
Fey	67	10
fireisredsir	173	10
Dunnstral	61	10
Rhyme and Reason	52	10
Meuh	169	10
Val89	67	10
Gammagooey	58	10
Kovu	152	10
Enchant	55	10
SirCakez	117	10
gorilla	165	10

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Actually...

This is a worthy question. Look at the VC. 4 of the people not voting Dunn are town, and one is Fey. I don't think this necessarily clears Dunn, scum have incentive to bus in this setup, but it's worth examining people in that light.

So it's more likely that I'm being bussed by multiple teammates than it is for someone else to be mafia?

[Dunnstral]

I guess my problem with Fey-scum is, who's her teammate? If I recall from yesterday, all of Meuh, Dunn, and Gamma came out wanting to push her. You can theorize about bussing but I don't think her first move, down a teammate, is to tell her temmate to bus her? It doesn't seem likely to me. I don't know. but her lurking out is a bad feeling regardless. Maybe scum wanted to kill each other and I decided to throw the game but I thought the arguments against her were tenuous and I distrusted the people pushing her. Good luck on that one.

Who is my partner?

[Dunnstral]

Would a roleblocker stop invictus shots?

[Dunnstral]

Kovu
Fire
Gamma
Fey
Meuh
Gorilla

Something like this for me

[Dunnstral]

Individual reads, that doesn't necessarily mean I think the bottom 3 are scum together

Fire, why are you ruling out meuh + gorilla completely?

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: Meuh

There is no world whatsoever in which she is town. None. I will stake the game on this.

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

kovu
gammagooey
meuh
fey
fire
dunnstral

Interesting progression

[Dunnstral]

Are there any reasons for fire!town aside from the hood having a lot of posts?

~Rhyme

Meta

[Dunnstral]

Kovu is also Meta

[Dunnstral]

Actually going further if mafia had to pile on to save marci that’s meh for Dunn and Fire.

Marci was at 0 votes when I voted for Lavar

[Dunnstral]

Unofficial vote count

LavarManos(8) gorilla (790), Lukewarm (796), fireisredsir (800), Val89 (803), Meuh (822), Dwlee99, Datisi, Bell

Datisi(2) marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)

Lady Lambdadelta(1) Enchant (759)

Dwlee (7) Kovu Fey Lady Lambdadelta Gammagooey VP Baltar SirCakez
Not Voting(3) Dunnstral, Malakittens (130) Rhyme and Reason

Lava at e-3
dwlee at e-4

We got 18 hours to find the rest of the votes for one of those to happen

Edit: the marci line should have been deleted. She has zero votes

[Dunnstral]

i felt like gorilla was townier in the 1v1 with meuh earlier

why do you think gorilla would have claimed bodyguard when he did?

Set up guess. in collaboration/coordination with buddies. Possibly for cover for previous night action as well.

Pedit: Gorilla's bg claim is a big question mark to me too. Though now that I think about it, I wonder if it could've had anything to do with Luke's claim of the vig shot? Cause Luke was very intensely saying he wanted to kill Gorilla. and Gorilla was seemingly doing anything to stop that. (Wasn't there a whole thing with him saying he'd invictus Luke?)
The claim would be bad for scum with no pressure, but in those circumstances? Less so.

Like if in scum!Gorilla's mind either
1. the scum team loses a member by him getting shot or
2. he could save himself with a fake claim, but be more restricted later
It would be worth it. and since Marci was unccd, he would have a safer bg claim than he otherwise would. I recall there being a gap in time between Marci and Gorilla claiming? So a window to gauge if there were any town protectives. Though maybe I'm misremembering.

The bodyguard cc was the only thing that could have saved him from being shot by Luke and losing 2 scum at once.

Luke was saying they would be linking with me and killing gorilla. This all happened before gorilla claimed anything, and at least to the scum team it was looking like they would have both died there.

gorilla cc'd their team member who was already about to die to make themself look better. That is where I am at right now

[Dunnstral]

Kovu
Fire
Gamma
Fey
Meuh
Gorilla

Something like this for me

@Kovu

[Dunnstral]

Even if it wasn’t an explicit move off of Marci it’d mean the town numbers needed to flip onto anyone else just weren’t happening given the Dwlee wagon and marci not pushing more herself.

I'm not sure what you're saying here

[Dunnstral]

Alright, I am over this, we're waiting and waiting on... like 1 person who said they'd be gone for a few days, and to be fair neither hood has told me no, so Dunn. would you like to vote out meuh or gamma here? those are the 2 options

Between those two Meuh. I'm a bit worried they don't make sense as a gorilla partner, though, which is where I'd really like to elim today.

[Dunnstral]

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?

Why always?

[Dunnstral]

@everyone Why aren’t you scum this game?

Well it can't be me, I pushed town

[Dunnstral]

For real though, I don't think I make sense in any team because I was almost eliminated on day 3. And I feel like every time the votes are on me the game goes dead silent. There were 2-3 mafia voting me at the same time on day 3

[Dunnstral]

Fwiw worth

for what it's worth worth

[Dunnstral]

Note how Meuh makes hasty excuses to join the Dunn wagon, then pulls away and flips to pushing Enchant instead.

Do think the lines of argumentation Fey has been using on cakez/enchant and now gamma are absolutely awful and stretchy logic of "you are/aren't similar to this one other game" which is hardly convincing proof of anything.

The way he led the diversion onto Enchant yesterday in the total absence of leadership in the game left a bad taste in my mouth, which is part of my lingering paranoia toward him.

That being kept in mind, Dunn is the safest flip because he is literally always scum, has not towntold once, and has done fuck all this game. He's by far the most likely scum to me.

I think this is telling

[Dunnstral]

I think bully is strong word choice here

[Dunnstral]

Expanding on 3117

I don't really buy that I'm somehow gorilla's most confident read right now. They are able to give real reasoning referring to game events for multiple other players, but their reasoning for me devolves into me being scummy because I am, basically, and I don't agree with it either.

In fact, I don't believe Gorilla has ever talked about their read on me in depth, except for when they were arguing about how my vote on them made me scum before their bodyguard claim.

They make a lot of posts like this:

I think Dunnstral is very likely a hit here, based on the way he's playing and the way the thread is treating him.

For every other player, gorilla gives real examples instead of vaguely gesturing towards me.

Spoiler: gorilla points out something that has already been pointed out in thread by somebody else and clarified

Hey guys! Wrote this before daystart. So whatever happened at night isn’t considered.
I decided to research. Ctrl-F people’s ISOS for Marci’s name, and vice versa!
A new advanced investigation technique.

Dunnstral

132 - Shading Dwlee for scumreading - but not voting - Marci.
134 - Questioning Marci’s typing style
712 - A lot of Dunn’s engagement with Marci so far comprises simple questions which don’t seem to get followed up much.
916 - Marci answers
1081 - Responding to an argument against Marci in a way that both diminishes the argument and draws attention away from Marci.
1088 - Oh, Marci’s response is acknowledged. Dunn likes some parts of Marci’s post, but doesn't like others. This is probably the juiciest interaction of theirs so far and I’m not convinced they aren’t paired.
1234 - This is interesting stuff. Dunn throws some shade Val and Marci’s way, but also says the Datisi wagon was likely town-driven. Don’t like this one.
1241 - Marci likes Gorilla’s reasoning on the Dunn vote. Does not push Dunn further.
1375 - Marci shades Gamma for not pushing for Dunn on day 1. And she “doesn’t like” the vote on Gorilla.
1395 - Marci shading Gamma’s vote on Dunn. When prompted to vote for Dunn, she answers “no sorry, i dont want to join my scumread on a wagon, shocker there.”. Ooh boy.
1398 - She makes her refusal to vote on Dunn more about Gamma being scummy and shifts the blame there.
1403 - Dunn makes sure to clarify that while they scumread Gorilla, they aren’t sold on Gorilla/Marci.
1636 - Asking about Dunn
1723 - Throws Marci in as a townlean along with VPB and I. They apparently like Marci because of Luke’s said she’s town, unlike the others who they scumread on their own merit.

I think the one-sidededness of Marci and Dunn’s interactions could mean Dunn’s not partnered with her. Within the 2, Marci has the bulk of the awkward interactions. I’d still say they’re >rand scum, and I’m uneasy about them.

Fey

80 - Marci likes Fey. To note this is specifically being said in response to someone else’s townread on Fey.
108 - Fey thinks this is Marci’s towngame. From what she recalls, Marci not freezing up and responding to stuff is out of her scope. Bit of a weird read.
148 - She thinks Fey looks townie and thinks Datisi is scummy for suggesting the opposite.
279 - Is a bit clearer about Fey’s read on Marci and feels better than her last post on the topic.
928 - “Fey towny” is mentioned and not elaborated on.
971 - Fey votes on Marci, specifically as a response to Lavar. Makes sure to mention she doesn’t particularly like the wagon.
1011 - 40 posts later and that vote is gone, in favour of the Dwlee wagon.
1178 - Marci townread exists, Fey never mentions her again.
2088 - Oh. Marci thinks one of Fey’s posts is weird.
2216 - Marci’s at 7 votes and decides to say she scumreads Fey. Cool. This is probably distancing.

Fey’s probably the most likely scum in this game.

Edit: Ouch, those were some not accurate shots.
The impression I get from the modpost is that these 2 chains happened.
VPB died -> invictus Lukewarm
Mala died -> invictus Dwlee
If you look at the story and the separation in the role pms, that’s what makes most sense

I wish scummier players had been killed
My top 3 scumreads are still alive sadly
I’d guess VPB was the mafia kill, and Mala was Lukewarm’s kill.

I suppose this confirms R&R and makes Bell’s clear being fake impossible, right? Doesn’t really change my outlook on the game but it’s nice! :cool:

@Dunn I think your assessment of who killed who is correct

Oh and Dunn got there about Fey before me :cry:
Stealing my thunder! :lol:

VOTE: Fey

They apparently like Marci because of Luke’s said she’s town, unlike the others who they scumread on their own merit.

It wasn't because "Luke said she's town"

I agreed with the post Luke made. Also Marci really stepped up her scum game from the last time I've seen it, where it was really obvious.

i dont scumread you for that anymore, i have diff reasons now!!

Which is what?

Datisis posts are very mean spirited by nature,
i think hes overly self aware too, to the point where its scummy!! like hes like oH iM jUsT aWkWaRd!! but like DOES THAT NOT SOUND LIKE EXCUSES? like once is eh enough, but i remember him doing that more than once so its certainly eyebrow raising!!

This is fair and I can see what you are talking about

i think him attacking me and val is v sketchy too, in the way he did it, hes kinda reminiscent of this one dude i met before. even tho i know they cant be the same person :blush: i see it as a viable scum strategy. Like i said before, datisis goal this game is just to outscream anyone scumreading him, thats why it reminds me of him. Hes convincing just like this dude was, but deep down i KNOW  its same vibes!! is it not obvious?!?!? because of datisis BANSHEE SCREAMS u guys dont want to oppose him, but very clearly im not scared of the devil (:

I don't think this is true and don't like this part of your argument

He also keeps bandwagoning otherpeoples votes, i think its just to be buddy buddy with them and make himself look cool and good in their eyes, hes obviously set himself up to succeed and YALL ARE JUST BIASED!! The easiest votes in the world which is what hes been doing all game, is not *that* hard for scum to make.

I didn't get the impression that they were bandwagoning while reading, I didn't check to see how true your statement here is after reading this though.

very clearly using bad logic wHy ArE yOu UsInG tHe NoTeS pT bAltEr?!?!?

Agree with this

yDrAsSeS uSuAlLy mOrE eXcItEd As ToWn!@

Don't think this one is bad (not sure whether it is true though)

Marci doesn't seem to have any idea what to do now that Datisi is dead. I don't think that is a good look since as I pointed above this would have been a surprise flip for mafia.

Lean town on VP Baltar, Meuh, and Marci. First two because I like some of what they have posted, last one because I liked Luke's recent posts about how this is town marci

Some weak pressure on marci initially but hides behind Lukewarm's townread on her. Classic partner behavior.

[Dunnstral]

Also they're acting like they didn't jump right onto Enchant themselves

[Dunnstral]

Also gorilla keeps complaining about a lack of leadership yet trying to decide the wagon themselves, even though it's already clear that discussion will be taking place over the weekend soon, and they don't personally seem very interested in what the clears are saying either. So that doesn't feel real to me.

[Dunnstral]

Did everyone answer my why aren’t you scum this game question?

No

[Dunnstral]

@Everyone: one person who do you want to kill? Who is essentially your top scum read. Keep it extremely concise.

Gorilla

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: gorilla

[Dunnstral]

Fey I was trying really hard to make it look like we were partnered, you made it a lot further than I thought possible