Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[gorilla]

@mostly R&R and gorilla -
I'd still prefer Dunn over anyone else atm but could we talk a little more about Fey since the day is stalling out a bit?

I can see pretty clearly where gorilla's coming from and I think I see where R&R is coming from (in that Fey's posts getting emotional, particularly #2388 #2392 which do seem town when looked at apart from the rest of her play), but I think that the vast majority of that kind of emotional posting is more due to the personality of the player making them than their alignment. Tbf I'm not even completely sure if it's those posts in particular, but if it is R&R, could you explain why you don't think Fey would post that as scum as well as town? Like I can pretty easily see her getting frustrated as either alignment as I've already said, and for that in particular I can see her as scum or town thinking that it's very stupid for you to prioritize getting a neighborhood over considering her more as town/considering Cakez as scum, and also it did seem like there was a bit lost in translation there where the assumption was on Fey's end that Cakez would still be alive the next day, and I don't think I understood that completely the first time either given that I think your plan was *elim fey->if town then cakez dies but also the neighborhood between specifically Bell & you (NOT including the dead-that-night Cakez) would still go through*.

p-edit:

At this point I'd rather just let someone in the POE dictate the elimination, with the agreement that if they're wrong everyone should invictus them.

I don't want to continue doing this in future days b/c I think it prob leads to the same type of shots that the Invictus's have been so far, but if the risk of having guns pointed at me if I'm wrong is what it takes for a Dunn elim to actually happen today than I'm willing to do it

If no one takes charge we're going to end up havuing a path of least resistance vote on enchant, because no one actually wants to defend him.

Am I terribly convinced Fey is mafia? No, but I could be wrong. Could I go there at some point? Eh, okay.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Dunnnstral

This game isn't worth expending effort on.

[gorilla]

If no one takes charge we're going to end up havuing a path of least resistance vote on enchant, because no one actually wants to defend him.

do you disagree with the idea that if enchant is town then maf probably want them alive as an invictus shield? im actually curious, im not sure that my line of thinking is correct there, but it makes sense to me

If Enchant is town he's a useful mis-elim, either way.

[gorilla]

because usually when you're town you are actually proactive on occasion and here i don't feel like you care about finding scum

your votes on fey and gorilla seemed to be just bc you disagreed with their claimed PR usage

One of claimed PRs is scum 100% change my mind.

Speaking of, are you going to claim your PR at some point?

[gorilla]

why do you need to know what bells pr is enchant -.-

Because i am PR too

Why did you say this, then?

[gorilla]

VOTE: enchant

Whatever, just die.

Done with this.

[gorilla]

I will be 0% surprised if this flips town regardless but at this point I consider it acceptable for game health.

It's significantly likely we'll look back on this day phase and see that multiple townies were working their hardest to ensure it was completely impossible to kill scum. I hope not, but that's how it's felt to me.

[gorilla]

I will be 0% surprised if this flips town regardless but at this point I consider it acceptable for game health.

It's significantly likely we'll look back on this day phase and see that multiple townies were working their hardest to ensure it was completely impossible to kill scum. I hope not, but that's how it's felt to me.

Why you think i am really wagoned only in the end?

I've said as much that you're the path of least resistance. It doesn't really matter because the remaining towns are either ineffectual and absent or are hard shielding everyone else.

[gorilla]

This town fully deserves to lose for how it's played. The towns have either been absent and ineffectual, or have been hard shielding mafia. It is literally impossible to kill scum given the way people are playing.

[gorilla]

If we actually manage to kill another scum from invictus, please come back to this day and kill whoever was shielding them as policy.

[gorilla]

Which town do you think have been shielding which mafia, exactly?

I've made my reads claer since the start of the day - meuh/cakez/dunn. There has been massive resistance to killing any of them. That might not be the entire team, but I would wager there's at least one in there.

[gorilla]

If Fey flips town, Gammagooey should probably die as well.

[gorilla]

I'd kill all four of those and if the game's not over see where we stand.

[gorilla]

Checked my PT and I did target Val for protection, which means I was roleblocked.

[gorilla]

If you think I counter-claim my own partner's fakeclaim to get her elimmed then out myself a day later, that's on you I guess. It should be clear enough I'm not scum here if you stop to think rather than making blind guesses about mechanics.

(No, I don't have a good answer for why I was blocked and not Bell for instance).

[gorilla]

I admit to being off the mark on cakez and I'll take responsibility there. But by all means, if you mindlessly kill me today, please listen to me and realize Meuh has been pushing obvious horseshit. Her posts about marci were terrible and she was blatantly not trying to actually scumhunt yesterday but pushing wherever it was opportune. I do not believe she is following any legitimate process.

[gorilla]

gorilla, what are your thoughts on cakez flipping town?

I don't really have any major thoughts, I thought the suspicion against him was mostly justified and it's disappointing to be wrong there.

It's possible I was just...really bad and wrong on Fey, too. I don't know. But Meuh is absolutely scum.

[gorilla]

Spoiler:

Also, Marci going against a scumread on me? That’s new. I was expecting her to scumread me by now

Do you think it means anything in terms of her alignment this game?

Marci and I tend to read each other poorly, especially early on in games. A whole lot of inaccurate scumreading.
I still don't think it's unrealistic for Marci to feel neut about me here though.
What does feel off about it is her using this read on me to push back on Datisi. Even if she does feel neutral about me, I don't think she says this:

i also *shocker here* dont agree with meuh feeling off yet, i think she hasnt done much alignment indicative yet and i think ur hating on her for her basic personality

This does not really seem like a way to go after Datisi that I expect town!Marci to do.

Honestly my approach on reading Marci as of late is to just not do it on day 1
It's not worth the effort in forming a read that'll probably be poor and I'd rather spend that time and energy somewhere else.
I think I'm decent at reading Marci later on in the game with flips having happened so I'd rather do it then. (viewtopic.php?p=12746354#p12746354)
There's a need for it here though because of the wagon on her, and while I don't feel great about her, it's not as strong of a feeling as the one on Lavar.

Also I just found out you can highlight a part of a post before quoting it and it'll only quote that part??? That's so useful how did I not know this

meuh needs to have more scumreads imo

Sircakez looks bad in general but I’m fine with waiting for more content since he’s VLA. Perhaps a clash in thought process but 197 reads very unnatural.

Datisi’s 260 looks pretty bad to me tbh. I’m conflicted on its alignment. His early posting which bothered people didn’t bother me but some of his more recent posting rubs me the wrong way. Still not particularly compelled to push there

I think there’s scum (probably like 2) in tako/Enchant/Lambda/Lavar/RR/Val. I’m getting a lot of townie vibes from the general activity of the game if that makes any sense? and those are the 6 that either haven’t said much or haven’t done that much that stuck to me as indicative of much.

You could also be scum but like I said before, that’s not something I’m particularly keen on figuring out at the moment

Pedit: oh Gorilla’s list is similar to what I’m thinking lol

Despite a bunch of shade and mild scumreads, I’ve only gotten 2 votes? Idk I’m kinda expecting more action to have been taken.
Plus both of those votes on me were retracted, one pretty quickly.
Kinda gives me the vibe scum have a more convenient wagon to chill on and I’m just there as a backup if wagons on other townies die down.
This is +town on Marci especially but also Datisi.
Don’t think either of those wagons struck gold from the general circumstances.

Maybe the Bell wagon’s correct but the only thing that’s stuck out to me about them is being mildly infuriating, which sadly isn’t a scumtell.

Why is it town for Marci and Datisi but not for Bell?

I think the timing of it makes it less town indicative for Bell. The wagon gained momentum later, once I was being less considered (and only had 1 vote on me, from someone scumread by many).
Bell wouldn’t really fulfill the role of the “existing wagon scum are satisfied with” in the same way Marci or Datisi was imo

@Meuh - Do you have any more detailed thoughts on VPB atm from his earlier posts? I wouldn't mind hearing 'em if you do.

Meh as I've said before not really. I think some things levied against him early on (like being too careless with posts) didn't really mean much.
I'll have to ISO him probably, a lot of the points against him come down to meta, which I have no knowledge of.
His recent posting is weird and decently scummy. I trust the people on him a good amount and think a wagon on him is preferable to one on Marci or Bell so I'm chilling with it.
I don't really get which way someone can look at the game and come out of it thinking Kovu's scum, even with a scumread on Bell. That confuses me from VPB.

I think there’s scum (probably like 2) in tako/Enchant/Lambda/Lavar/RR/Val. I’m getting a lot of townie vibes from the general activity of the game if that makes any sense? and those are the 6 that either haven’t said much or haven’t done that much that stuck to me as indicative of much.

i haven't really paid attention to rhyme and reason that much, they aren't completely dead like some of those other names imo but nothing theyve done has really screamed yet, yknow? what do you see wrong with them rn?

I feel about the same as you about them, which is why they're in my POE
This game feels town-led so the slots that aren't involved much feel like they have high scum equity
I feel similar about Val than about RR (though Val has done more I think, it just hasn't stuck to me)

actually tho bell whys cakez scummier than the rest?

This is a good post from Marci imo

I have not read the game entire, yet it
Is thought by me — the wagon Bell attracts
Quite good may be. I cast our vote for him;
He has not here his normal tone he seems
To me to lack conviction that, when town
He has achieved in role PM, he with
Swift, easy facility presents in game


VOTE: Bell

My friend still stays with me in fair Madrid
No posts shall here forthcome until the morn
~Reason

this could definitely be a Bell scumbuddy
there's zero conviction in this vote and it feels like distancing IMO

Is your perception of RR entirely based on equity with Bell?

I should give some bits of the game a reread because some of it I just don’t really remember or spent much energy on interpreting.
Not that much has been sticking to me thus far.
Dunn/Gorilla/Fire/VB/Lukewarm/Bell probably town here

Also what’s the expected number of scum here? 4? 5? Never played this big of a game on this site.

these reads suck how could you have VP and Bell as town? and what has Gorilla done really?

329
Gorilla good vibes!

Cakez is kinda weird for me to read rn because his vibes are good but some of his reads (especially on Bell) are a bit perplexing.
Either way there's enough town pings for me to not really feel great about limming him today

VOTE: LavarManos

WOOO FLASHWAGON LAVAR!! E-something

Marci lim is bad so this is fun

My tinfoil is that Datisi and Marci are partners. Marci tried to bus Datisi early and could not justify it.

Oh okay, I guess Lavar’s scum. That post alone convinces me
The *gamestate becoming bad for the scum team* to *proposing an insane tinfoil theory* pipeline is real…

inb4 Mathblade/Titus S/S

I did the same thing in my last game where I was scum. Right after things suddenly got way worse for the mafia team.

It is worth remembering from all the garbage Meuh threw at me, she was very blatantly defending marci on Day 1 and tried to save her from the elim. On Day 2 she suddenly flipped her read 180 degrees and started calling marci scum, but pushing me as her partner. The shift is incredibly unnatural, and the fact that she went after me over actually attacking marci is highly partner-indicative.

Now, you have a right not to believe me because I've played a pretty crap game. But if you need to, kill me, realize I'm town, realize what absolute bullshit Meuh was pulling against me, and Invictus her. That's all I ask.

[gorilla]

I did the math in my head, assuming 3 scum remaining (and hopefully it is that), town only has 2 chances left to get it right or it's game over.

It's pretty selfish of me to want to dictate a kill after being wrong all game, and especially after giving in on Enchant when I felt that was the wrong vote, but it's hardly like anyone else has shown themselves to be more trustworthy.

[gorilla]

I had thought Cakez made sense as a scum role because of setup speculation. I was wrong. But I don't think it was an unreasonable assumption to make.


I think logical expectation is that means a neighbor is scum, given the presence of the traffic analyst in the setup. But I'm townreading both of the neighbors individually, so I really don't know what to do with that.

[gorilla]

Kovu, how big is your PT with fire now?

[gorilla]

Meh, I had a tinfoil theory that they were faking the hood being that size, because a private topic with that many posts is highly implausible. However, a quick look through marci's ISO reveals 1415 as plausibly un-aligned with Kovu, and I still think there's no chance she makes 2016 2107 and 2134 as mafia. If she did, well done, I'm completely fine with losing to that play.

still sus of marci, a lot of that early stuff about datisi is just... i have a hard time seeing it coming from a town mindset. but also like... no offense marci, but she seems clearly new. sometimes i have a hard time understanding the thought process of newer players. and like, i agree with the points for why she's scummy, but idk, some of the people jumping on her feel a bit opportunistic? and it sketches me out a bit. probably overthinking here but whatever

rude... im not new.... im the best player ever....
who is it who feels opportunistic for "jumping on me" here?

This, on the other hand, I raise an eyebrow at, because marci never really gives a read on fire at any point in the game and the embedded quote is rather awkwardly hedgy. fire is maybe someone I've been ignoring too much for mostly seeming fine and reasonable.

[gorilla]

I guess my problem with Fey-scum is, who's her teammate? If I recall from yesterday, all of Meuh, Dunn, and Gamma came out wanting to push her. You can theorize about bussing but I don't think her first move, down a teammate, is to tell her temmate to bus her? It doesn't seem likely to me. I don't know. but her lurking out is a bad feeling regardless. Maybe scum wanted to kill each other and I decided to throw the game but I thought the arguments against her were tenuous and I distrusted the people pushing her. Good luck on that one.

[gorilla]

Gorilla do you still think Dunn is likely scum too or has that changed since yesterday? You commented on the first part of my *big thoughts* post yesterday but not on my idea that Dunn+Meuh weren't likely scum together. Do you think that's reasonable or dumb thinking on my part?

Meuh I've read over pretty much her whole iso now at this point and still feel conflicted. One thing I wanna bring up is that I think that Meuh & Dunn are pretty damn unlikely to be scum together. The gorilla pushes, and now the Fey push, and the way they behaved around marci is just too similar in a game where any scumbuddy could die at any time to Invictus and one person's read on you can end your life, and I think it makes a lot more sense that Meuh got blinded by her friend's play than Dunn. If I'm wrong about Dunn then I think she's at least a reasonable guess at scum, but also I think it's likely I was overly tunneled on her gorilla push - I still don't like it and it's probably going to be bouncing in the back of my brain every now and again until either she's deceased or the game's over, but if I put most of that aside, I do think her point about scum seeing the setup as more town-sided than it is and vice-versa was more likely to come from a town mindset than scum even if I don't agree with its conclusion of gorilla being scum, her marci questioning+mentions day 2 in particular were generally reasonable and definitely at least felt better than the random pointless pokes it felt like Dunn was giving to marci, and similar to her point on gorilla I like her post 1287 where she goes over what she thought was iffy about Cakez and reconsiders a bit that she may have disliked where Cakez's focus was but acknowledges that she's not sure how justified that was in retrospect.

Since I didn't respond to this earlier and you're mentioning it again

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

It's typically not *hey a scumbuddy did literally the exact same thing*, it's usually *hey, X wagon was bad, there's probably at least one scum on it* or *there's scum at the start/middle/end of this wagon* or *Y is obvtown, one of the people pushing that has to be scum*

A lot of the time, they're dumb assumptions pulled out of someone's ass, but playing into those dumb assumptions will still make you more likely to be elim'd as scum, and decent players will try to avoid that by not doing making the exact same pushes as a scum partner. Hell, if you want to you could even call this an assumption I'm pulling out of my ass, but DGB in the old days used to try to not have any scum on the main D1 wagon at all and wacky shit like that to subvert what people expect scum to do, and I still think good players now will tend to avoid looking too similar to their partners just to avoid extra attention being put on them for having similar stances in case a flip or potential assumptions/ideas come up that could put multiple partners in danger at once.

I think attempting to clear someone on reasoning like "scum wouldn't act so closely together" is really thin because it's easy to play around that and I feel like something fucky is going on.

I'm in a spiral right now because I did not expect the combination of the roleblock+cakez flipping town. My first reaction is indignation at Meuh who I believe has been setting me up as scum since Day 2, and the fact that I think she is most plausible as the scum being misread by the rest of the game who is going to be impossible to kill.

I went to reread Dunn and he's still incredibly scummy, yes. Maybe worse than Meuh, given how he's been engaging with the game.

[gorilla]

Also, there was a moment last phase where Dunn got pushed to E-1 and Meuh very coyly unvoted, and the wagon wound up dissolving as a result. That stuck in my mind as well.

[gorilla]

Vote Count 3.2

This is another one of those "Flavor VC way later" counts sorry everyone

Player	Votes
Dunnstral (6)	gorilla (2444), Kovu (2528), SirCakez (2535), Gammagooey (2535), fireisredsir (2553), Meuh (2554)
SirCakez (2)	Dunnstral (2264), Bell (2470)
Fey (1)	Enchant (2260)
Not Voting (3)	Rhyme and Reason (2404), Val89 (2486), Fey (2527)

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-21 01:00:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	170	10
Fey	67	10
fireisredsir	173	10
Dunnstral	61	10
Rhyme and Reason	52	10
Meuh	169	10
Val89	67	10
Gammagooey	58	10
Kovu	152	10
Enchant	55	10
SirCakez	117	10
gorilla	165	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

Actually...

This is a worthy question. Look at the VC. 4 of the people not voting Dunn are town, and one is Fey. I don't think this necessarily clears Dunn, scum have incentive to bus in this setup, but it's worth examining people in that light.

[gorilla]

Like, don't all of you SR dunn? why are we defending dunn by pushing cakez instead? we ALL SR Dunn... and most of yall don't want to vote there?

I also think Cakez is scum and I'd rather resolve that first

Anyone else thinking Enchant is scum here? I don't really see a world where they aren't at this point

Scummy.

[gorilla]

Vote Count 3.2

This is another one of those "Flavor VC way later" counts sorry everyone

Player	Votes
Dunnstral (6)	gorilla (2444), Kovu (2528), SirCakez (2535), Gammagooey (2535), fireisredsir (2553), Meuh (2554)
SirCakez (2)	Dunnstral (2264), Bell (2470)
Fey (1)	Enchant (2260)
Not Voting (3)	Rhyme and Reason (2404), Val89 (2486), Fey (2527)

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-21 01:00:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	170	10
Fey	67	10
fireisredsir	173	10
Dunnstral	61	10
Rhyme and Reason	52	10
Meuh	169	10
Val89	67	10
Gammagooey	58	10
Kovu	152	10
Enchant	55	10
SirCakez	117	10
gorilla	165	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

VOTE: Dunn yeah okay we can do this!

I also think Cakez is scum and I'd rather resolve that first

What's changed in the last 12 hours?

I'm a tesla fanatic

Aren’t we all?
Elon Musk

Also, I had a dream last night and for some reason I thought of this??
But instead of saying you’re a tesla fanatic, you said you “could invictus someone tonight” which sounded super fake…
So I started questioning you on it, it was very dramatic, the dream never got further than that though
But if my dreams tell me you’re suspicious, then you must be!

…But I’ll UNVOTE: to avoid day ending early.

I also think Cakez is scum and I'd rather resolve that first

What's changed in the last 12 hours?

Cakez got a bit townier and Kovu’s VCA pushed me a bit more in that direction.

(I'm stealing something fire said, but like, I noticed it too)

Sooo are all of yall ignoring the fact Dunn was at e-1 and enchant didn't hammer that? Like from enchant's POV, dunn like has to be maf here.. Enchant didn't want to hammer Dunn? ok, so enchant thinks dunn is town. then who are the 3 possible names for scum?

meuh, meuh and meuh

Didn't think about that, but yeah, Enchant is agenda motivated here and it shows

VOTE: Enchanr

We should just stop saying blah blah Invictus Enchant he will be taken care of and just kill him.

VOTE: Enchant sure

Note how Meuh makes hasty excuses to join the Dunn wagon, then pulls away and flips to pushing Enchant instead.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Meuh

There is no world whatsoever in which she is town. None. I will stake the game on this.

[gorilla]

I think if anything Meuh/Dunn seems likely, based on her terrible progression on him and the way she immediately tried and succeeded in getting a counterwagon going instead. But I don't want to get ahead of myself.

You're going to have to find one town in Fey/Dunn/Gamma/Fire. I don't think that's going to be easy.

[gorilla]

You should probably be a little less blasé about my read seeing as the game is on the line. Is "whatever ur tunneled" your response to a potentially game-losing read if I'm town? Also I thought you were certain on me being scum?

[gorilla]

I think if Dunn is scum, I would pick Gammagooey as most likely to be town out of those names, seeing as he was on Dunn's tail from Day 1.

[gorilla]

I wanted to push Dunn again later but Fire was ruling him out in that one list and I wanted some sort of compromise so I voted somewhere else. I think I made it pretty clear I just wanted some sort of unity and if you look at the game fmpov I don’t really see why this doesn’t reason with you

All of this just reads like whiny scum excuses. Why couldn't you push him yourself? What nonsense.

[gorilla]

Cool. So now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad, let's focus on the current game.

LOL

dying

my first reaction to this post was "well, dunn is town" but tbh showing up only after people start pushing on him means i proooobably shouldn't let him off that easy, even though i want to. idk

[gorilla]

48
241
1238

Are the only posts fire has made about or in response to dunn. Feel like fire is just trying to push me without actually engaging with the Dunn wagon, and his posts about Dunn consist of things like "teehee what if I townread dunn for a bad reason"

ive already said (maybe it was in the hood? idr) that i like dunn/dwlee as being the main wagons. idk why you would expect me to engage heavily with the dunn wagon here? i don't have very strong feelings on it

personally i think he's felt tonally very similar to his spring fling play, including the way that he's reacted to some of the pushes on him. bell i believe in that game said that he often responds to things in a sassy/snarky way as town and i felt a lot of that here. there is some lack of proactivity and scumhunting, though, so im not opposed to the wagon. my gut could be wrong on him, so im not like gonna fight the people scumreading him, i just think you're much more likely to be scum

[gorilla]

Maybe I'm too wrapped up in OMGUSing Meuh. I don't know. I skimmed fire's iso with regard to marci and dunn (again admittedly doing preflipping here) and it is really not great at all.


VOTE: Dunnstral

[gorilla]

Meuh, I'm going to give you a chance here. Hopefully I haven't annoyed you too much with my ranting and you're still willing to accept an olive branch.

I'm not going to talk about you or your read on me. These are obvious dead ends.


What are your reads on other players in the game? I don't care if you think I'm 100% confirmed scum, I want to hear what you think about other people.

[gorilla]

lmao, I'm sorry, if you're town I probably deserve that rant

[gorilla]

Meuh, I'm going to give you a chance here. Hopefully I haven't annoyed you too much with my ranting and you're still willing to accept an olive branch.

I'm not going to talk about you or your read on me. These are obvious dead ends.


What are your reads on other players in the game? I don't care if you think I'm 100% confirmed scum, I want to hear what you think about other people.

Okay don’t click on the spoiler tag then <3
I’m also willing to work with you because I feel like you’re just tunnelled

Pedit: NOOO I FEEL BAD NOW
It’s ok it’s ok
I really needed to get that out of my system though

As for reads:
I see no reason to scumread Gamma here, but also I don’t strongly townread him. Fey is a big ? and tbh I would do anything just for a sliver of insight from the almighty R&R.
Dunn is scum just in like every way and if he isn’t I need to find a new career
Kovu is the towniest townie to ever town
I’ve started feeling mild doubts about Fire I don’t remember exactly when? Like somewhere between mid day 2 and the start of this day. Which sounds terrible considering the shade you’ve just cast upon him but meh
Before then I’ve just kinda been defaulting to “oh but 1500 post neighbourhood” which like fair but where tf else is scum??
Who else is in the game
Bell is Bell

Wait is that really it???
Ig it’s Dun and then 2 people in {Fey, Fire, Gamma, you}
I’d default to Dun/Fey/Fire at the moment tbh
The idea of neither of you or Fire being scum seems kind of insane to me at this point
Dun/Fey/Gamma does not really make sense
Maybe Dun/Gamma/Fire
Any way you cut it I think Dun’s scum so let’s please just finally lim him

No it's fine, I don't take it personally, really, and it's okay to go off on me for that, I probably deserve it. Will get to addressing reads stuff in a bit.

It's important because if you're town then we...probably need to get the exact team right. And that's more useful than back and forth bickering. If you're scum you still have to give reads on your partners here that can be potentially incriminating. It's harder for scum to win as the last one standing in this setup than to hope that town messes up twice in a row here. So either way, it's beneficial to discuss these things.

[gorilla]

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

kovu
gammagooey
meuh
fey
fire
dunnstral

[gorilla]

Are there any reasons for fire!town aside from the hood having a lot of posts?

~Rhyme

No, and for the record I think his posts around marci are a bad look, and if dunn is scum his associatives are pretty bad there as well. I can summarize it for you if you want?

[gorilla]

VOTE: Meuh

There is no world whatsoever in which she is town. None. I will stake the game on this.

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

kovu
gammagooey
meuh
fey
fire
dunnstral

Interesting progression

Yes, go ahead, please strip out, context-free, the dozen posts of me arguing with her where I start to think that maybe I'm wrong.

[gorilla]

This is so fucking tedious. Most of the people post are going to be scum bickering to muddy the waters and the towns are barely around to speak with.

[gorilla]

Gorilla/Fire/Dunn ggez

Pedit: your tone was 100% weird there

The notion that I've decided to bus my whole team while locked into a bodyguard claim is not remotely realistic or plausible.

[gorilla]

Meh.

I think Gamma and Gorilla are probably mafia. The former is actually I think the only mafia on the D1 Dwlee wagon compared to the main wagon having like 2 mafia on it, Gorilla off wagon voted from Marci to Lavar and then Lavar died. Also the night action stuff. IDK the last one.

Okay, then who's the third?

[gorilla]

This is so fucking tedious. Most of the people post are going to be scum bickering to muddy the waters and the towns are barely around to speak with.

This is a weird complaint.

It's been my complaint since yesterday that we have clears that have been generally ineffectual and limp and have allowed scum to run the game. That has not changed. I know for a fact that most of the people posting right now are scum and arguing with them is useless. That's not really weird at all.

[gorilla]

Meh.

I think Gamma and Gorilla are probably mafia. The former is actually I think the only mafia on the D1 Dwlee wagon compared to the main wagon having like 2 mafia on it, Gorilla off wagon voted from Marci to Lavar and then Lavar died. Also the night action stuff. IDK the last one.

Okay, then who's the third?

Did you read the last line there or what.

Then maybe goddamn figure it out ifyou're town? If you're trying to present a team theory then figure out who fits as a third.

Because the argument that Gamma and I are scum with Dunn is comically bad. Do you think Meuh works? What about fire? That last one is the most plausible I guess, but it still seems a strain to me.

If you're not going to present an actual coherent theory then you're just deliberately limiting your scope to push specific players. If you're actually concerned with finding the scum you should be working through the logic of what's possible. As it is your theory of me/gamma has an enormous hole in it.


This is to say nothing of the fact that - WHY DO I EVER CC MARCI SO MY OTHER PARTNER CAN VOTER THEM? The idea is absurdly illogical. If I wanted to bus Id just...bus, rather than making a claim.

[gorilla]

Anyways.

I don’t think my effort levels will crest up again but I’ll float around. If I’m the elim just heed what I’ve said. /shrug

If you're town you are playing legitimately abysmally.

[gorilla]

Like seriously, you put in no effort, whine and complained when you get FOSed, had completely shit reads, and now you think you can go "just heed what I've said"? Fuck you, play better.

I haven't been great either but at least I'm TRYING. You do jack all and think you've somehow got the answer.

[gorilla]

I guess the comedy world option is meuh and dunn attempting to do a coordinated bus on fey that didn't take off. Don't know how likely that is. Not going to research it right now. Do think the lines of argumentation Fey has been using on cakez/enchant and now gamma are absolutely awful and stretchy logic of "you are/aren't similar to this one other game" which is hardly convincing proof of anything.


Mad at this game again. Wish there was a way for everyone involved to lose. Back later.

[gorilla]

VOTE: Bell

Skimmed Lavar and Bell, Lavar feels... in his own little world sort of deal. Like the read on Dunnstral of all people as potentially shady feels out there in a world where scum!Lavar probably doesn't need to be right now. Is a weird place to fixate. Just seems like he's doing his own thing.

Bell feels on the fringes and like. I dunno. I have an expectation of something "more" as vague as it is, but he feels very shady with the things he's posting and also just like "eh, whatever" to questions, all that. A presence that doesn't really want to be around at all but knows he has to be, and like... throwing out whatever thoughts because he has to, given prior games where he spews out his thoughts and boom everyone reads him right.

@Someone, I think VP asked me about Marci and what she could/couldn't post, compare 213 to like, Holiday Dance Party, where she was a lot more sheepish I feel. Here she's all attitude and bite and I feel that's more of a hallmark of her as town.

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

Anyways,

Still voting Dwlee, if that wagon's not a thing then RIP. I don't actually know how to read Dunn.

If Meuh flares up I'll go there. Sure. Why not.

Shrug, I kind of like how Dunn is approaching things and get the vibe that Gamma’s showing up here to try and shove me out over Cakez rn.

Okay, I've calmed down.

Fey basically has been defending Dunn for most of the game without giving so much as a meaningful read on him. It's absolutely terrible, and the rationale in the last post quoted is absolute nothingg. Compared to the vigor with which she's attacked multiple towns it's jarring. Dunn has done fucking nothing all game and she's barely interested in invetigating him.

I think Fey and Dunn are joined at the hip, and her counter-pushing Gammagooey makes sense if he's the most accurate townie in the game. I think it's flatly absurd to scumread gammagooey over Dunnstral off content.

You give me a gun, I shoot those two in the head and clear Gamma if they're both scum. That turns the game into easy mode.

[gorilla]

Think the theories Meuh continues to push look more like agenda-ed nonsense given how they evolved but I'm heavily biased there. I mostly feel like sticking to my earlier townreads still.

[gorilla]

I was eating a popsicle
tbh I forgot about Gamma's read on you
Unsure if it's too out of left field to be scum or if they're that desperate to broaden the POE. Meh. I think scumreading you is bad, I'd have to reread Gamma's post for bad intentions because I don't think it's inherently scummy.

I don't remember other specific instances of towniness, tbh. I barely had a read on Gamma before day 3, I was just like "he's around enough and doesn't look scummy so I'm willing to accept he's town for now". In a 20 person game my mind has not had the space to read everyone, especially people making content that doesn't stick out to me. (Like Gamma. Val early on and Datisi too)

Idk Kovu I've technically read Gamma's longer posts but I don't remember much that got said in them. They just didn't stick to me, a lot of things just aren't sticking to me this game. So I'm commenting on what has. Maybe I should care more about truly absorbing the posts getting made but it doesn't really seem worthwhile at the moment.

Imo just pew pew pow Dunn, Gorilla and Fey ASAP and if the game isn't over we look at Fire and Gamma. That's about where I'm at.

It's less simple for you since you have no confirmation of my alignment, I guess. I wish I could just control where our kills went but alas.

Literally never allow this to endgame. If you do it's a gamethrow.

[gorilla]

(Last post is all @Kovu)

@Gorilla
Yeah, I guess Dunn/Fey/Fire is a reasonable solve. (I know it wasn't said but I'm a townie and in that theoretical Gamma and Gorilla also are) I don't think Gorilla's plan is bad here. I think with all 3 of them + Gorilla out of the game we just win either way. If we lose there it'd be like a Gamma/Dunn/Gorilla team or a Gamma/Fey/Gorilla team; which I guess is possible but I don't see as particularly likely.

Pedit: You can kill me before endgame if you kill the 4 I've just proposed. I don't care at this point

fair enough yeah, I don't think kovu or gamma are likely to be scum at all

[gorilla]

Pool:
1. Gorilla.
2. Fey.
3. Dunnstral.
4. Gamma.
5. Meuh.

No order.

My reads are terrible this game,

currently I'm inclined toward a Gorilla, Fey, and Gamma scum team.

Hey. You listen up.

You can kill me today if you want. That's fine. But if you do that, you kill dunnstral, fey, meuh, and fire in that order. You do not goddamn touch gammagooey this game. Is that understandable?

[gorilla]

Say I die and flip town, who realistically makes sense as a Gammagooey teammate? Not Dunn. Not Fey. Not Kovu. It'd have to be Gamma/fire/Meuh but then fire went out of his way to case his teammate yesterday for no reason when most people were townreading her?? Just doesn't make a lick of sense.

[gorilla]

I also really wish the clears weren't so diffident and removed from discussion. It is frustrating to have the fate of the game in the hands of people when I'm not realy sure what they're thinking or reading.

[gorilla]

Say I die and flip town, who realistically makes sense as a Gammagooey teammate? Not Dunn. Not Fey. Not Kovu. It'd have to be Gamma/fire/Meuh but then fire went out of his way to case his teammate yesterday for no reason when most people were townreading her?? Just doesn't make a lick of sense.

why not fey? i don't think their interactions are unbelievable as partners

Because Fey has been doing nothing but grimy pushes on town all game and doubt she stops now (and was discrediting gammagooey yesterday as well for the same cruddy reasoning as before. I also think dunnstral is almost certainly mafia which is coloring my judgment.

Say I die and flip town, who realistically makes sense as a Gammagooey teammate? Not Dunn. Not Fey. Not Kovu. It'd have to be Gamma/fire/Meuh but then fire went out of his way to case his teammate yesterday for no reason when most people were townreading her?? Just doesn't make a lick of sense.

meuh maf? perfect. we lim meuh here!

I'd be fine with it but again

we're depending on the votes of two incredibly flaky clears to make any elimination happen.

[gorilla]

and for those of us who don't want to wait till monday for "maybe something" I'm saying we should lim meuh.
We have 4 days 6 hours till deadline, and if you want to spend 3 waiting? you do you, but @ everyone going "I'm sheeping the clears" I'm as close to a clear as you're really gonna get for leadership right now, up to yall, it's your vote, do what you want with it, but I'm staying on Meuh, if anyone has opposition to it I'm happy to hear your case, and no I'm not limming gorilla the bg here.

wait if you want, or don't but if you want 3 IRL days of nothing happening... whatever

It's not that I'm "sheeping the clears",

per se

, it is that we need votes from town to eliminate scum here and scum are not going to bus their own.

The problem is those town votes are removing themselves from the thread. This is making it effectively impossible to accomplish anything. It is a dire situation.

[gorilla]

In fact, having some actual direction makes it more likely they paranoia themselves into thinking this is a nefarious scum plot and decide to kill town instead.

[gorilla]

lol who's my scumteam meuh

[gorilla]

i will remind you that counter claiming marci was unnecessary and that i could very very easily have let dwlee get run up and die. getting vig shot was no big deal because i'd be able to invictus in retaliation - no loss

the one peddling desperate nonsense is you because i think you know your role flip will damn you, not vindicate you

[gorilla]

I will remind you that if my team were any of dunn/fey/gamma we'd have hammered you while the clears sat back quaking in fear of having to actually take initiative or make a decision for once.

[gorilla]

taking a 1 for 1 is fine when there was an enormous risk of the elim swinging off town dwlee onto another member of the scumteam.

you're losing sight of your own narrative. why if i assume that i'm going down do i sit back and do nothing and let my teammate get wagoned and then counter claim them? you say it's "desperate", but if i were so desperate, why would i just not...take the elim on town that was sitting in front of my face?

[gorilla]

you're outing yourself right now and it's telling how much time and attention you're spending on trying to kill me

[gorilla]

On reflection and not being tremendously annoyed at terrible logic the reason I don't want to go after Meuh today is because there's a dark timeline world where fire is scum taking advantage of the deathtunnel between us. The way he led the diversion onto Enchant yesterday in the total absence of leadership in the game left a bad taste in my mouth, which is part of my lingering paranoia toward him. In that world I get invictus'd and he wins. I still think meuh is operating in complete bad faith in her argumentation but I want to be able to hedge against the possibility of being wrong.


That being kept in mind, Dunn is the safest flip because he is literally always scum, has not towntold once, and has done fuck all this game. He's by far the most likely scum to me.

[gorilla]

Did everyone answer my why aren’t you scum this game question?

If you asked me I missed it, been incredibly frustrating this game so I'm only even periodically checking in.

Let's see...

I don't waste my time trying to defend town like dwlee when they were an easy mis-elim and I had previously expressed being open to voting them. The fact that I held off voting that wagon because I was unsure was what allowed momentum to swing toward voting off marcistar. I also came around to town reading VP Baltar and defended him when I could have kept pushing that as mafia.

I don't pick a fight with a town PR who was

very

likely softclaiming a vigilante role, as many people had realized. There's no upside to it. There was anincredibly strong chance it would get me killed. I'd have just kept townreading him and moved on, but I got paranoid because he defended my strongest scumread for really terrible reasons.

I don't counterclaim my own scumbuddy. That guaranteed marci got eliminated, and would just trap me in a claim where I keep having to answer while I'm alive. How easy do you think it would have been to say, "let's leave marci alone if there's no protective CC and vote dwlee today?" It would have been incredibly easy.

I don't think I get demotivated and stop playing the game as mafia if I'm in a good position and generally townread. I'd push people to do what I wanted. I got discouraged because I felt like town wasn't listening to me and was playing really badly, so I gave up trying because I wrongly assumed I'd just get shot and have my invictus go off. I think that has probably been the biggest factor detrimental to my play, the assumption I wouldn;'t have to persuade anyone. I don't think I could fake that mindset as mafia, and it would serve me no benefit to do so as it just allows other players to run the game.

I don't get nearly so salty and abrasive toward people over the game going poorly because that's just likely to irritate them and make them want to kill me. I don't think the idea of faking it would occur to me really, I'd be more focused on trying to push town or distance from my partners. I know from experience that insulting the play of townies just makes them vote you out of spite, but I can't really help myself when I see behavior that is making a game go downhill.

[gorilla]

Oh, and I don't think I momentarily tinfoil the neighborhood chat being fake based on the postcount either. That's just not a line of thought that occurs to me ever as mafia, because I don't think I ever succeed in scumcasing anyone based on that. That's the thought that Ionly have out of paranoia because I'm questioning everything.

(and I don't think it was unreasonable to think about, either - if it's true it's one of the largest private topics of all time on the website, and certainly the largest two-person neighborhood. Other topics of comparable length have been scum PTs or graveyards for large games. However, I still think the interactions and post about marci I highlighted from Andante are basically clearing.

[gorilla]

Ooooooooh i kinda do wanna powerfade gorilla doe

Has he got votes atm? Could we speedwagon outta nowhere?

~Rhyme

Go for it.

[gorilla]

Humor me for a minute: do you have an actual reason beyond lolmechanics? How much of this game have you actually read? (I would wager below 20%)

[gorilla]

Actually, I realistically don't care anymore. Rhyme & Reason's play has been genuinely pathetic and I want them to lose this game. I won't selfvote because then I'll get yelled at for gamethrowing, but realistically their play should be seen as the single biggest determinant factor in this town loss. It's not about being wrong, of course - everyone is going to be wrong at points in a game of mafia and plenty of people have been wrong. It's the fact that as confirmed town, they and Bell have been completely gutless and spineless, utterly inept and unwilling to take charge or engage substantively. It is genuinely infuriating and the most absurdly poor play imaginable. Make no mistake, they are the single biggest catalysts of a loss here.

So go ahead and vote me.

I will be flipped, and I will reveal as town, and then I will be MORE confirmed town than either of them. (I don't think it's likely that either of them have been falsely cleared by bastard shenanigans or a godfather role. But the only way to be 100% sure is when someone is dead and revealed by the moderator). After that, you should listen to

ME

, and not them, because their cowardly ineptitude has allowed this game to to reach a horrible state. They cannot and should not be trusted to make correct decisions. They have proven themselves incapable of doing so.

You will do the following:

Invictus Dunnstral.

I have had one scumread since the start of day 2. The game has repeatedly refused to kill him, while he has continued to do nothing but reactively accuse those who suspect him. It completely pathetic if you allow yourselves to lose to someone who has done as little as he has. He is flamingly obvious scum.

Kill Meuh, then Fey.

The order realistically doesn't matter here, you can do it the other way around, but the spiteful side of me wants Meuh shoved over during the day because I think she's pushing absolute bullshit right now.

That

should

net you at least 2/3 scum, if not the entire team. If not, you were pretty much always going to lose this game.

Depends on flips:

If Fey is somehow town -> kill gammagooey.

His protection of Meuh and attempts to un-align her and Dunnstral while pushing Fey as an elim have obvious scum motivation.

If Meuh is somehow town -> kill fire.

His attempt to divert the elim to her today is an obvious setup to get me invictus'd tonight and win the game outright for scum. Gammagooey is never scum with a Dunn/Fey team.


I think this is a reasonable and logical path forward. It should be enough to win the game in spite of the play of the clears, as long as they have the sense to actually LISTEN to what other people are saying in this game for once.

[gorilla]

I say meuh/fey because those two were the ones who did the most obvious work at dismantling a Dunnstral wagon. If it's some scenario where scum were trying to bus him and town pulled the vote off, then again, we just deservedly lose there. But I don't think that is super likely.

[gorilla]

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 4 deadline is in 2 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes.

If Bell/R&R continue to dither and hedge uselessly, I will vote myself in 24 hours, for the sake of ensuring an elimination actually happens. I frankly do not trust them to act decisively within the time alotted.

[gorilla]

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 4 deadline is in 2 days, 4 hours, 22 minutes.

If Bell/R&R continue to dither and hedge uselessly, I will vote myself in 24 hours, for the sake of ensuring an elimination actually happens. I frankly do not trust them to act decisively within the time alotted.

I mean, I'd much rather people just vote whoever they SR, like, sitting around the entire D4 cause "must sheep clears" gets us exactly no where...

I am voting who I scumread. Bell and R&R are holding the game hostage with their terrible play. What more can I do?

I'll move over to Meuh if there's will there. It is genuinely impossible to eliminate her if she's scum, though. You won't get the votes.

[gorilla]

I guess Bell is voting Fey. If he's decided on that vote I will follow it.