Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[Irrelephant11]

My timezone is -4, New York

I played a ton in 2018 and 2019 here on MS, then siteflaked until earlier this year, when I played half a game and repped out for RL reasons

I used to prefer scum because it affords unique strategic options, but it's also a lot more work and I'm busier these days, so I probably like town and mafia equally now. also I'm town

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: confidently wrong

Erialox voting three different people on page 1 was interesting. My first thought is maybe that's a bit bold for scum, so +.1 townpoints?

[Irrelephant11]

Hi Shoshin are you town? I'll have much more fun if so

[Irrelephant11]

Also hi malakittens! I promise not to disregard your reads even if you lowpost this time

[Irrelephant11]

is there an elephant in this room?

let's not talk about it

@kennyk, any early suspicions or thoughts?

what do you think of confidently incorrect?

[Irrelephant11]

Eiralox I've decided you're town. If you had to decide now, is fancypants town, or scum trying to do towny-looking things?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean true but why not just speculate? It's not like I can "gotcha!" you on page 2 by holding you to the read forever

[Irrelephant11]

also for the wagon VOTE: fancypants

[Irrelephant11]

@Mod I'm V/LA on Saturdays and Sunday

[Irrelephant11]

I don't want a mountain I want the color of the pebble... but pushing you on this specific point seems like it'll be a way to annoy you personally without getting anywhere so I'll stop. Anyone find their way into townbin or scumbin for you yet?

[Irrelephant11]

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: CSF
I believe that’s E-2

This is fun!

[Irrelephant11]

BBT could be town. Pants seems torn. Cat scratch why would BBT starting a weak push be scummy on page ~3? Like yes, it’s weak, but it’s page 3

[Irrelephant11]

Pants seems town*

[Irrelephant11]

Confidently wrong you can be elimmed right after we get your scum partner cat scratch

[Irrelephant11]

Also Shoshin is probably town but I’ll be able to say for sure after she posts a dozen more times

[Irrelephant11]

Confidently wrong you can be elimmed right after we get your scum partner cat scratch

(Was a joke if that wasn’t clear)

[Irrelephant11]

Lowell what do you think of BBT

[Irrelephant11]

Realizing CSF is V/LA this weekend takes some of the wind out of my sails. I don’t have any read on Malcolm yet.

I could do VOTE: Lowell

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is a she, and I’ve played with her a lot. I’m not ready to defend her as definitely town but I see similarities to her town game already. I’ll need a few more posts to get a more confident read

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is Kenny scum or is that just me

[Irrelephant11]

I'm feeling that

Tell me more, so I know whether the mind meld goes both ways

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin why isn’t Kenny’s over-explaining-himself a scumread for you

[Irrelephant11]

I don’t see it but I’ll VOTE: Malcolm anyway

[Irrelephant11]

[a bunch of Irrelephant11 quotes]

If Shoshin is town then I feel like Irrelephant could potentially be scum trying to pocket them a bit going forward.

There's several posts here repeatedly indicating Irrelephant thinks Shoshin is town, based on their past experience together, but we're never given a sense as to why this is beyond what must presumably be a gut-read. But Irrelephant appears to be viewing Shoshin's slot completely uncritically - it's more like they desperately want them to be town more than anything else.

The eventual vote on me is weird in that regard, Irrelephant doesn't particularly suspect me, and doesn't actually see me as scum but...votes for me anyway? This just seems really odd. Why waste time voting for a slot you don't think is mafia purely on the gut-read of a player who has made six posts so far?

I will probably explain better at a later date. For now, I'll say that because of past experience, I treat Shoshin pretty differently than I treat the rest of the playerlist (because I don't think I've played with anyone else). So if you think I'm playing weirdly when it comes to Shoshin, probably I am

[Irrelephant11]

Starting a townblock

[FancyPants, BBT, Frederick]

I would put myself in it but I promised myself I wouldn't over-effort this game so I'd like some town leadership that doesn't rely on me doing too much. That said, if you three like the townblock and then decide to add me later I will not fight it, because again, that would require effort

[Irrelephant11]

Has anyone here watched the Doctor Strange movie AND ALSO watched the new Ms. Marvel show? I'm trying to decide which to watch first

[Irrelephant11]

kennyk, what are your reads?

[Irrelephant11]

A group of townies who townread each other, are generally accepted as town by most players, and have outsized influence on deciding who to eliminate. If you can make a townblock of about 5 or 6 players on D1 that has 0-1 scum in it, you're more likely to hit scum because town voices will be amplified and the townies inside the townblock are basically safe from being eliminated that day

It kinda naturally happens in a lot of games without being named as such, but I want to name it and get it going before scum have much momentum. And the nice thing about me leaving me out of it, is people will trust it more. Because would I really put both of my partners in a 3-person townblock? No. And everyone should be able to see that you three have generally been pretty towny so far, so you don't need to rely on my being town to trust the townblock. I would have added Eiralox too but tbh I forgot why Eiralox was a townread earlier, and starting with 4 people felt risky

pedit: sorry shoshin Malcolm isn't happening rn, going back to VOTE: Lowell

[Irrelephant11]

Honestly I'm torn on how to play this game because my usual style of play gets me pretty widely townread and sometimes even puts me adjacent to a town-leader spot, and that's fun and can be helpful (when my reads are good and/or I manage to make scum uncomfy). But I really don't want a game on my shoulders right now. I want a stress free gallavant in the field where I high five my teammates as they do the heavy lifting and I sort Shoshin for them and spread native wildflower seeds as I go

[Irrelephant11]

I will probably end up somewhere in the middle

[Irrelephant11]

Malakittens what do you think about kenny?

Loftwing what do you think about Confidently Wrong?

As an aside, I have no idea how to read Confidently Wrong, so if someone has a strong read on that slot, please notify me so I can sheep it

[Irrelephant11]

161
Correct link, I messed up something with the link above.

I've remained unimpressed with what I've seen so far. Off the top of my head, I don't have any particularly strong reads on anyone, and I'd have to re-read the game again for analysis.

Wild that you can read this very thread and walk away without reads

[Irrelephant11]

You don't have to be like "this person is DEFINITELY SCUM" to have helpful reads. You can just compare, say, kenny and fancypants, who are voting each other, and pick a side. Voila, you've got a townread. You can figure out who's done the least that's towny to you. Voila, you've got a scumread. Nothing so far??

Can't decide if town being stubborn or scum trying to seem towny by audacity

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not even sure it's that you're playing "weirdly" though, it's just that you're incredibly willing to hand out a free townread early on without much of a reason for doing so. I understand meta will often come into games and that's fine, but your posts could easily read as an opportunistic attempt to cosy up to Shoshin and get on her side early on if she's town and you're not.

I will probably explain better at a later date.

Your townblock, for what it's worth, gives me a similar fear...we're not that long into the game, I'm wary to put too much faith and trust in anyone at this stage.

This is fair. Does it make you think I'm scum trying to prop up a partner? Or just town who's likely to be wrong? Because, if the latter, it's only dangerous if you think one of my three townreads is scum. Let me know if you think so at any point.
Realistically I don't think we'll manage a consensus 5-6 person townblock with 0 scum. But I do think we can make one with, at most, 1 scum. And that's a pretty valuable potential town tool.

Like I get your paranoia but do you disagree with the concept of a townblock or just that i've picked three names already?

[Irrelephant11]

kenny reminds me of every day 1 scumflip I've ever participated in, and I think a *lot* has to change from that slot for me to *not* vote there by the end of the game day.

On the other hand, I don't really expect much to change from kenny, and there's always a chance he's town (and there's 2 more scum to find) so I'd rather pressure other slots for a bit

[Irrelephant11]

Starting a townblock

[FancyPants, BBT, Frederick]

I would put myself in it but I promised myself I wouldn't over-effort this game so I'd like some town leadership that doesn't rely on me doing too much. That said, if you three like the townblock and then decide to add me later I will not fight it, because again, that would require effort

The last time I asked to be in a townblock with you , I got rejected hardcore

<\3

I want you in my townblock! Can you post a read or two so I can see that you're town? I promise I won't dismiss your reads out of hand this time

[Irrelephant11]

I'm just not too keen on ruling out certain players as mafia early on in D1

Oh, well this is a playstyle difference. Ideally I like to mentally have half the playerlist in a townbin pretty early D1, so I can focus on the scummier players. If someone I assume is town suddenly scums it up, I change my reads accordingly, but generally I try to kill paranoia because otherwise D1 you just spin in paranoia circles all day. Then on D2 I re-evaluate based on flips

Nevertheless, I can accommodate you wanting to wait to make a townblock. I'll wait 48 hours and then (spoilers) will probably pick the same names, but this time you'll feel better about it. Sound good?

[Irrelephant11]

good scum want to convince you they're town and so can often do a good job of that early on.

this is true but in my experience the best way to handle this situation is to make reads, use them, and change them later when new information arises (as opposed to not making reads, keeping people in a nebulous nullzone, and being too openminded)

The more I explain my method of play the less confident I feel that I even 100% stand by it. Also it's not really moving the game forward other than letting me understand you a bit.

Do you have a readslist, yet, Malcolm? we're past page 10 I don't think it's a crazy thing to ask for

[Irrelephant11]

I will catch up when I get home from a business trip. On Wednesday. Apologies for this.

I forgive you

[Irrelephant11]

I'll go first then

FancyPants
BBT, Frederick, Malcolm
Shoshin, Malakittens, Lowell, Eiralox
Confidently Wrong, Cat Scratch Fever --- null
Loftwing
kenny

Hmmm I have too many townreads probably

[Irrelephant11]

*she

I don't know how anyone without meta experience has a strong read on Shoshin. I wouldn't even say my own read is "strong" at this point.

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: kenny

[Irrelephant11]

I'll go first then

FancyPants
BBT, Frederick, Malcolm
Shoshin, Malakittens, Lowell, Eiralox
Confidently Wrong, Cat Scratch Fever --- null
Loftwing
kenny

Hmmm I have too many townreads probably

I had you as possible scum until.this post - and theres never a thing as too many townreads unless you cannot have scum fit outside them

what about this post flipped your read on me?

[Irrelephant11]

kenny reminds me of every day 1 scumflip

I've ever participated in, and I think a *lot* has to change from that slot for me to *not* vote there by the end of the game day.

On the other hand, I don't really expect much to change from kenny, and there's always a chance he's town (and there's 2 more scum to find) so I'd rather pressure other slots for a bit

How so?

I'm also interested in why you had BBT in your townblock earlier.

Long over-explainy posts that summarize the game but are empty of reads, + defensiveness without the gameplay to back it up. Two hallmarks of scum, first struggling to gain footing in earlygame, and then struggling to get out of the spotlight

BBT is assertive in a way scum can fake but rarely choose to be right out the gate. Also he's moved the game forward. Also we mindmelded twice, which were both kinda weak mindmelds but since there's 2 other reasons to townread him it adds up

[Irrelephant11]

loftwing/kenny/lowell feels way too easy, but I would also be shocked if it had 0 mafia in it

[Irrelephant11]

there is substance in their earlier posts.

please do point out the substance, I keep stirring my soup trying to find even a single noodle stuck at the bottom of the bowl but my spoon keeps coming up with just broth

[Irrelephant11]

CW I'm very curious who you are but I'm also enjoying the mystery so don't feel like you need to share. But also I still can't read you really

[Irrelephant11]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

"Irrelephant - scumlean but not with shoshin
BBT - town
FancyPants - town
Frederick - null
Eiralox - null
CSF - null
Loftwing - null/scumlean?
Lowell - null/scumlean?
Kenny - town (?????)
Shoshin - scumlean but not with irrelephant
Mala - null"

This is a lot of words to say very little. I know I asked for a readslist, but this was p disappointing, especially since I think "Irrelephant is townleaning Shoshin based on meta --> he's definitely pocketing her" doesn't feel like a real read fmpov, though I'm biased

[Irrelephant11]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

Aware it'll feel like we're picking on you Loftwing, and I'm guilty of plenty hedgy, obvious posts myself...but this post from you really feels like it's saying nothing at all. It reads like an attempt to be helpful to town but basically tells us that Kenny is giving us their thoughts with an earlier post...which seems self-explanatory to me.

303 was a response to my question to him, so he didn't decide to say this out of thin air

[Irrelephant11]

I am not trying to antagonize you, MT. You're right, I missed that you townread CW. That does make me feel a bit better. It was not a trap, I'm not suddenly voting you or trying to get you elimmed. If you didn't have many strong reads, though, you could have said as much, or at the very least written a whole lot less. It struck me at first as scum trying to gain townpoints by complying with a townie's request and writing lots of words, though perhaps the fact that we're now arguing means that wasn't really your intent, seeing as I'd be the townie most likely to townread you off complying

When I said I had too many townreads I meant scum has probably slipped into my townpool, btw

[Irrelephant11]

lol I grope you as townlean still so don't get your panties in a bunch. You're wrong that me/shoshin as a scum, though. Her push on you that bewildered you is a hallmark of her town game. I'm not at 100% she's town because maybe she got better in the long amount of time since we last played but so far she doesn't seem as uncomfy as I'd expect scum!her to be

Plus, what, her only 5 posts as scum are making an enemy of a townie with a case nobody would listen to?

[Irrelephant11]

I guess CW has town vibes

CW, there's a major wagon on kenny, the second-quietest player. Who are you giving advice to?

[Irrelephant11]

I would argue Lowell, tied for third-quietest, is also in your category of quiet players. But point taken I guess

[Irrelephant11]

@kenny who's town in your eyes

[Irrelephant11]

kenny will flip red

[Irrelephant11]

Sorry to hear you're sick, Lowell! Feel better!

[Irrelephant11]

quick before you go, you've played with BBT yeah? Any memory of how to read him?

[Irrelephant11]

what about that post is towny to you, Eira?

[Irrelephant11]

can we get more votecounts because the last one was literally 4 days ago

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: loftwing

[Irrelephant11]

I don't think bolding text is against the rules, some mods might not like it but it's not mentioned in kittytacky's ruleset

[Irrelephant11]

tbh I kinda feel like at least one of the people townreading kenny are scum with tmi, and it's almost certainly not fancypants

[Irrelephant11]

Right, obviously if kenny is scum then it's not true. But if you're right that he's town, etc etc

On the other hand the way kenny's wagon dissipated so fast could mean he's scum and his partners are trying to get a counterwagon going. Both of these theories require work to see if anyone's actions match them. Maybe I'll have time for that in a bit

[Irrelephant11]

Kenny's responses to suspicion seemed townie enough that people were willing to drop it.

yeah except nothing he posted was towny so that's where I'm thinking something is off.

Yes, kenny could be town who seems scummy, that's my take-away from fancy's meta case on him. But none of his posts so far ring towny to me. Not a single one. Even his most recent readslist, his read of me sounds like he copy/pasted your reasoning and then put "townlean" at the end so he wouldn't make an enemy out of me, a talkative townie

[Irrelephant11]

all that said, I think loftwing looks great as a scum partner for kenny so I don't mind following fancypants there

[Irrelephant11]

you ask for reads lists, people give you fairly detailed lists while admitting areas where you're unsure, and you perceive that as suspect

I didn't ask kenny for a readslist
I'm fine with people being unsure, I find busywork (needlessly long posts) and hedging on basically the entire playerlist suspect (tho yes I have already acknowledged you didn't do this as much as I first thought)
None of that has to do with what I find suspect from kenny's readslist. I think he copy/pasted his read of me from your readslist, and is presenting it as his own thought. I think he's buddying you/amplifying a false concern in that regard, while hedging on me as townlean so he doesn't have to actually push me, a hard-to-lim player. The rest of his readslist is meh but could come from town. His read on me specifically is what I take issue with

[Irrelephant11]

@CW, This is the part where I ask you why Loftwing is town - you ignore me and I don't change my mind.

The claimed mafia lowell spewed them town

remind me the scumcase for lowell?

[Irrelephant11]

Good point re:that fancypants read

Also hi CSF, do you have a read on CW?

[Irrelephant11]

I think there's 1, maybe even 2 though that's less likely, in kenny/loftwing/malcolm. So I don't think you've got the whole team

I'm re-reading the interaction between lowell and malcolm and like really don't know what you're referring to as a scumclaim

[Irrelephant11]

Lowell just seems mad that he's townreading someone he doesn't like/want to be on the same team as. Like "ugh I thought I caught one but I guess it was just playstyle all along"
Not that you're definitely wrong I just don't think it's as clear cut & obvious as you're saying

I'm definitely not basing my reads on Lowell being mafia

[Irrelephant11]

Lowell could be mafia, don't get me wrong, I don't even really want to get in your way if that's your pick for scum. I just don't see it as an obvious thing like you do

[Irrelephant11]

Lowell just seems mad that he's townreading someone he doesn't like/want to be on the same team as. Like "ugh I thought I caught one but I guess it was just playstyle all along"
Not that you're definitely wrong I just don't think it's as clear cut & obvious as you're saying

I'm definitely not basing my reads on Lowell being mafia

Kind of odd to think he's caught scum this early, no?

good point tbh

440 from kenny might be towny, I'm too tired to decide. hoping shoshin has time to enter the thread in a more significant way today (not to mention mala)

[Irrelephant11]

I find 448 illegible

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: eiralox

[Irrelephant11]

@eira the ly*ch word is no longer allowed onsite. Call it elimination or flip

The post from Eira just before my vote on Eira felt scummy so I voted. I feel okay with leaving it there for now

[Irrelephant11]

575 has good points. But on the other hand sometimes scum get defensive and flustered when pressured. Loftwing’s vote is the worst on the wagon so far, for sure, if Eira is town.


@malakittens @shoshin, thoughts on Eiralox ISO?

[Irrelephant11]

Who’s Lloyd?

[Irrelephant11]

Eira it seems like part of your scumread of CW is he put you in a three-person team prematurely. But as he pointed out, you’ve shown suspicion on the other two slots. Why was your response to scumread CW? It seems like “great PoE, though I’m town” would make more sense as a response if you’re town who agrees with 2/3 of his stated scum team

[Irrelephant11]

I've lost any read on shoshin or malakittens

[Irrelephant11]

I could vote loftwing but I want the silent players to have two competing wagons to take a stance on so I'll sit for now

eiralox I think most players in this playerlist would describe someone as "null" if they see them us unreadable, and when leaning someone town would call them a townread. For example I have 0 people I feel *extremely* confident on but giving reads on who's townier than null and who's scummier than null helps other people read me and sort with me. You don't have to change your use of "null" but if you did I think it would be pro-town since the rest of us would understand you better

[Irrelephant11]

I still think kenny is scum

[Irrelephant11]

So in short: Eira in my eyes got the worse out of this dispute and is downgraded in my reads.

enough to place a vote there?

[Irrelephant11]

Hi Shoshin I'm around for like 45 minutes

[Irrelephant11]

mala seems town

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is probably town again

[Irrelephant11]

CW and Shoshin both having me right at the bottom of their townread piles feels like a good reason why they should townread each other tbh

[Irrelephant11]

Like a low effort townie thinks I'm town for posting a lot and asking questions
Low effort scum says I'm town because nobody's coming for me so what's the point of coming for me
These two high effort townies think I'm Definitely Town But The Most Likely Of That Group To Be A Deepwolf because they're thinking through my motivations enough to come to a strong townread while also having the exact amount of paranoia that scum would forget to fake

[Irrelephant11]

I jive with CSF and Shoshin and CW a lot right now (like playstyle-wise, but also kind readswise I guess) and really would like there to be 0 scum in that group because I'd enjoy riding that out. I strongly doubt there's 2

[Irrelephant11]

Nothing escapes me, I notice all.

When's the last time you got a shoulder rub or drank a yummy warm drink, you seem a little tense

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: loftwing

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like there's ~5 slots whose posting makes little sense to me and are regularly using bad reasons to scumread other slots
And I doubt all three scum are in there, just based on how mafia games usually go
But at least 1, probably 2?

I guess I should figure out who I'm talking about, in full:

loftwing
lowell
kenny
eiralox
~frederick, sorta

I think I also mixed up a couple fred and malcolm posts at one point so those reads feel a little muddled. Only noticing how different they are when ISOing them

[Irrelephant11]

These two high effort townies think I'm Definitely Town But The Most Likely Of That Group To Be A Deepwolf because they're thinking through my motivations enough to come to a strong townread while also having the exact amount of paranoia that scum would forget to fake

I can also think of even higher-level reasons I won't name to put me exactly in that spot in your readslists and that would also be something that both of you should townread the other for, too. Either way, Shoshin, I think you should probably townread CW and even if you don't want to, flip a different scum today.

[Irrelephant11]

Why did Kenny saying “actually I wasn’t trying to offer you any reads in that early game longpost” satisfy you that he is town? The fact remained that he had written a bunch of words without advancing the game at all

Why does Eiralox’s confusing use of the word “null” still make him the scummiest player in your eyes? It seems like you’re choosing to be obtuse there as an excuse to keep a scumread, he’s obviously got reads and just doesn’t like to call them reads for some weird reason

[Irrelephant11]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

[Irrelephant11]

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

What signs do you see me being scum?

And why is Loftwing a good flip? Over Eira even?

I'm not confident Eiralox is scum, and you seem surprisingly confident. Could be posturing to get a miselim. It's not my #1 theory, but I know you're pretty good at mafia so I can't rule it out. I have no interest in flipping you in the near future though

[Irrelephant11]

Never played together before, but I know as DkKoba they were named the best player in a recent tournament mafia game on Mafia Universe

[Irrelephant11]

that was a game they played as mafia btw

[Irrelephant11]

If Loftwing flips red at any point I will probably act as if I got an inno on CSF

[Irrelephant11]

I have no time to read the game but will hammer anything. Loftwing is my preference but I’ll help almost any wagon go through.

[Irrelephant11]

Literally just skimming to look for votes and I’ll join a Lowell or Fred wagon but I really don’t feel confident that enough players are around this weekend to do anything new

[Irrelephant11]

Ditto. If we’re t/t we either win or one of us gets NK’d by then

Is Fred the loft alternative? Should fred claim or is that too much claiming?

[Irrelephant11]

Idk I’m just checking in and skimming for votes. It’s a holiday weekend. I think loftwing is probscum regardless of PR claim but I haven’t read like 5 pages or so. Just waiting to be told to switch or for people to finish off loftwing

[Irrelephant11]

I would true claim neighborizer as scum prob

[Irrelephant11]

Fancy what’s the case for Lowell

[Irrelephant11]

The lowell and Fred wagons both have people I think are town and people I think are scummy. Idk who to follow ahhhhh please don’t make me go reread

[Irrelephant11]

1008 is a terrible post

[Irrelephant11]

How is 1008 a bad post? Is it purely based on the fact i put you in the list?

Yes. But I conceded I'm hardly reading the thread and can't really throw shade

I don't think you're scum. Someone else said you were scum so I conceded it was possible.

I wish we could flip kenny

[Irrelephant11]

1008 is a terrible post

Is Loftwing scum or town

Am i scum or town


What am i if Loftwing flips town?

no clue
no clue
no clue

It's a holiday weekend I'm just looking to sheep someone and meanwhile I'm being sheeped so I feel pressure to figure out where to place my vote. I can't even remember why I scumread loft I just remember that I did

[Irrelephant11]

I remember thinking fancy, cw, csf, and bbt were town and they're voting opposite so I hate feeling like the swing vote here and wish I could just have the lim I believed in when I had the mental capacity for this game

pedit: summarize the case? I didn't read it sorry

[Irrelephant11]

I'm a dad of a toddler and a baby, I'm working as hard as I can to place a goodish vote here and unpluggggg

pedit: VOTE: frederick

[Irrelephant11]

love y'all, bye, hope it's scum. Logging off until Tuesday

[Irrelephant11]

If town, bbt deserves jail time k bye

[Irrelephant11]

i miss shoshin and csf

[Irrelephant11]

hi gamma

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: kenny

[Irrelephant11]

every flip has shown me my gut is right, so im following my gut. Can make a case later, have a work meeting now

[Irrelephant11]

love n1 vigs

[Irrelephant11]

not voting fancy/lowell/malcolm/gamma I think

[Irrelephant11]

cw is actually toward the bottom of my poe now but the idea of arguing with cw enough to push the lim through sounds exhausting so we can pretend they're town until I've ruled out everyone else

[Irrelephant11]

kenny/cw/mala u pick 2

[Irrelephant11]

lowell isn't scum

[Irrelephant11]

vig is mvp if we win

[Irrelephant11]

cw vote kenny with me

[Irrelephant11]

honestly we probably vote out mala or kenny and let cw get shot by vig. bbt *could* be scum here but idk I'm not feeling it. Maybe if I need to re-evaluate later

[Irrelephant11]

tbh I think mala is town but it's based on, like, tea leaves and stargazing so I don't feel like I can rule her out.

[Irrelephant11]

Now that you mention it, kenny hasn't said anything of substance despite saying many things.

VOTE: kennyk

UNVOTE: Kennyk

I like their recent posting, it feels a lot better than before.

@loftwing, Can you point out specifically what you like about Kenny's recent posts?

I feel like it was a resolution to my misgivings about them, which was mainly "There's a lot of nothing here"

But what you posted wasn't relevant. You posted a bunch of stuff but didn't actually give any reads, so the question is this; why post it at all?

I never claimed it to be reads. Just my impressions about things that were relevant in my eyes. Like Irrelephant believing Shoshin is town without giving a reason why.

It was just things that I think are noteworthy. They were and are not enough to make it a read in my eyes.

And btw.: the quoted post doesn't contain a read either. Why did you post it at all?

This post explained why kenny felt out of place and why it felt like nothing, it was nothing but only if you were looking for reads.

Once I was satisfied, I relieved the pressure.

@Loftwing, I'm having trouble following you.

Is this a fair characterization of your behaviour:
- You voted Kenny because he "didn't say anything of substance despite saying many things." 168
- You unvote once Kenny admit's that he wasn't saying anything of substance and was just making random comments about the game (207), this was enough to put your mind at ease and unvote him.

If I am incorrectly interpreting your posts, please treat me like I'm stupid and explain your thought process clearly.

@Kennyk, I'd still like you to follow up on post 190 please.

My Quarrel was that they were trying to decieve us into believing that they had something to say regarding their reads, when it was apparent they didn't. While I still may have my suspicions of Kenny, I feel like they are at a similar baseline that everyone else is at. They don't appear to have a bias or an agenda that they are attempting to push.

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

why did you think fred was a pr, cw?

[Irrelephant11]

F I did not mean to put those quotes there. Those quotes are for my kenny scumcase

[Irrelephant11]

unvote, vote loftwing

Fine with this. No particular read on loft one way or the other but I’ve done dumber things with less reason.

CW could be scum trying to power a miselim through. I think loftwing is a pretty good flip

We should consider making a flip happen sooner rather than later because this weekend is a holiday weekend for everyone in the US and we have about 2.5 days left in this game day, during which the American players might barely post (e.g. me, I'll be hanging with family)

I agree with this, especially as one of the folks who will be more out than in this weekend. And the way the loftwing wagon just seems to be floating there with no one wanting to hammer makes me feel good about it. The last vote is always the hardest--come on folks, someone be a hero.

@eira, loft/kenny/CW would be a hilariously clumsy scumteam so I doubt it. But loft with one of those two seems possible, with the third person being the duped town player along for the ride.

Like pulling teeth around here. Let’s all call a guy useless and scummy and do nothing.

Dudes loft posted 8 times in the last day and a half, listing all his suspects, what exactly you want from him? Vote him or don’t. BBT is scum, eira is probably town, I have this read in my head and can’t shake it now.

[Irrelephant11]

^ lowell towncase

[Irrelephant11]

I'm sad I voted frederick. Sorry fred. Would love to play with you again sometime

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Loftwing

Subject to change but time to cast a vote somewhere. Not confident their opportunistic jumping around from wagon to wagon is townie. The vote on Mala felt particularly opportunistic as I said earlier on.

this post alone (if you're reading malcolm's ISO, and put this post in context) is enough for malcolm to be locktown

[Irrelephant11]

cw please explain your frederick PR-read

[Irrelephant11]

kenny's ISO is the definition of information instead of analysis. Hop on my wagon, it's very comfortable!! We're taking the scenic route. On your left you'll see our tulip fields, they're beautiful this time of year

[Irrelephant11]

The first post is the only one i find clearing as the others i belive were around where lowell has pressure on him too
I have to check context but id clear lowell till limlo if the first vote was not under duress

lowell pushing loftwing when under duress is clearing

[Irrelephant11]

I'm having a hard time with today's wordle

[Irrelephant11]

The first post is the only one i find clearing as the others i belive were around where lowell has pressure on him too
I have to check context but id clear lowell till limlo if the first vote was not under duress

lowell pushing loftwing when under duress is clearing

Except if both are under duress at the same time.

vote kenny with me?

[Irrelephant11]

sure, I'm doing that. but you're also just itt and I want votes on kenny. Not sure what danger there is for you in being vote #2

[Irrelephant11]

alright........... you've got my attention,

[Irrelephant11]

like try this on for size: "I have no clear read on kenny but obvtown irrelephant wants me to help pressure kenny so for now, VOTE: kennyVOTE: [v/]"

we're not going to accidentally rush a flip on town!kenny. We're on evens, and fancy wants to locktown kenny

[Irrelephant11]

eiralox I admit you've pulled two chuckles from me now. 2!

[Irrelephant11]

like try this on for size: "I have no clear read on kenny but obvtown irrelephant wants me to help pressure kenny so for now, VOTE: kennyVOTE: [v/]"

we're not going to accidentally rush a flip on town!kenny. We're on evens, and fancy wants to locktown kenny

Ah yes being town means you are correct. My bad. I forgot how mafia works. Thats why despite getting a town role pm i am scum because i was wrong. Town cant be wrong.

I didn't say or imply any of this. I am literally just asking you to join my wagon so my wagon is more effective at pressuring kenny. I'm not asking you to hammer, I'm not asking you to assume I'm right, I'm not asking you to scumclaim. Literally just a vote. Not sure why it's triggering you

[Irrelephant11]

Nevermind I see now that was Eira, not kenny. In that case I'll join the wagon, and you can reverse kenny and eira on my previous list.

unvote, vote kenny

kenny wagon dissolved into eiralox wagon dissolved into loftwing wagon dissolved into lowell/fred competing wagons

[Irrelephant11]

thanks

eiralox is definitely the weakest of my townreads, I'm willing to hear out a case there

pedit: my scum meta is that everyone townreads me and I have fun experimenting with new ways to play. I rarely lose but when I do it's because I lose my WIM

[Irrelephant11]

wish I was bad at scum but I have nothing to help your paranoia except that I think my braindead holiday weekend play looks pretty good with a loftwing flip that I couldn't have planned for

[Irrelephant11]

I was about to ask eiralox to join the wagon and then realized eiralox is on the wagon. That's E-2 on my preferred elim, but I absolutely agree we need to let this day play out longer. Gamma hasn't even posted yet

[Irrelephant11]

I would like for you to be town, cw, because I think that's an easier win than if you're scum. But I think you get why you have to end up low in my PoE. Many slots look much better than you given the flips

I'll give you room to sort and play, though. I hear your point that lowell and eiralox are not as towny as others who pushed loftwing, since they themselves were up for elimination and might have just wanted towncred since scum was going down either way. I hear it, and I'm processing it.

[Irrelephant11]

Want It More, aka motivation

[Irrelephant11]

I still think Kenny is scum over mala or cw. Obv voting gamma but waiting for any explanation

[Irrelephant11]

The towncase on CW is the fact that scum is having an awful game

[Irrelephant11]

CW I think you’re giving too much weight to nightkill analysis, CSF was never getting elimmed and maybe scum noticed her crumbing her role (or thought they did) and those reasons are enough sometimes

[Irrelephant11]

On the one hand it’s a great tracker shot but on the other shoshin put extra pressure on a partner when she didn’t need to so I’m not 110% sold she’s scum yet. But I’d still vote there without an awesome explanation from gamma

[Irrelephant11]

Gamma you need to fullclaim btw

[Irrelephant11]

Cw do you have a habit of getting into uncharitable spats with your scumreads as town

[Irrelephant11]

Actually don’t answer that. I think cw is town for now

[Irrelephant11]

@FancyPants u havent read yo. i said i was leaning scum on llowel and considering joining mala vote at time of Con Wrong poling. u got no input on this?

cos right now i've seen a lot of egomaniacal vapidity from Con, an utter mess of a scummish post from Loftwing, and u basically saying u wanna vote me cos me not joining the meta club is confusing ur reads and that im either drunk/high and therefore sunhuman to defend myself against Con Wrongs blatant self-assertiveness.

Irrel and Cat are the only ones voting me who are keeping cool heads imo, and that's points for them.

Can I specifically get clarity from Kenny and Loftwing, exactly what they think of Eira and why, I know Loftwing gave reasoning when he voted, but can you clarify why her behaviour is scummy in your eyes.
Please don't say you have no opinion.

@Loftwing, nice Hamilton reference.

My reasoning for voting Eira is that they see CW, someone who they have fought and who they have said they think worsely of, and Kenny, who they have stated a greenlighting towards, are both equal in terms of scum equity, as that is what null means.

In other words, despite saying that they like Kenny and hate CW, they still say that they are equal and are both null.

Whoooopy ride man wtf is going on here. Ive felt better about kenny. Cw I wanted to expand. Theyve been one sentencing this game. Loftwing is my prob vote target atm. Ill go through what they did then come back with conclusion.

but it's not scummy to be generally uncooperative. It's anti-town, but townies do it all the time

[Irrelephant11]

BBT do you have any thoughts on third scum?

[Irrelephant11]

I’ll hammer in 36 hours max unless something major changes. I’d like to hear a bit more from BBT and mala and anyone else with additional thoughts because someone will die overnight but the game does need to move forward soon

[Irrelephant11]

good luck with night actions everyone!

[Irrelephant11]

Nobody claim

Fancy did you get a useful result?

Mala was obviously shot by vig. Scum probably shot at fancy who was somehow protected or didn’t shoot so as to not get tracked. I’d like to eliminate kenny.

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: kenny

[Irrelephant11]

Lol. Wish you had lied just to make scum squirm tbh. Oh well

[Irrelephant11]

If anyone has a damning night action result you can out that, obvs

[Irrelephant11]

But massclaim seems bad here unless vig is inside the limpool

[Irrelephant11]

I wish I could have your undeserved confidence that scum must be targeting me with everything they've got at all times, CW.

I stand by my read that a scumteam with CW would be doing better than this, I'll reevaluate later if needed. BBT seems more likely scum than CW, at this point. I don't see the case for Lowell very much, but mainly because I just think kenny is so scummy, and was treated in such a s/s way by loftwing

[Irrelephant11]

Loft and shoshin were scum theatering around the kenny slot. I really think that slot is spewed town that way fwiw.

Did anyone but myself open up any scum isos post flip?

I could see it as theater. I'm not sold like you are. Also yes obviously I opened ISOs your condescension is tiring, take a deep breath and try treating others like they're putting in the work, too. Just because you have a high postcount doesn't mean the rest of the pl aren't thinking.

yes I'm considering Loftwing being a planned bus. If so, it's either kenny or irrelphant to me.

@Eiralox

How would kenny be an active member of a planned bus here?

on god just fucking take me out of this game and confirm me town
My legacy is lowell scum
I cant be fucked to argue with a bunch of stubborn people who cant think further than surface level why people bus in games and why showing work is important. Lowell fucking bleeds tmi and people ignore it because "hurr durr they were right on scum" mf look at the fucking gamestate and how convenient it is to lowell

Fucking hell.

I really don't think you're getting eliminated today. Can you just, like, try on a happy face for a minute? Things are fine. You've made your point, Lowell will not escape scrutiny this game day. That doesn't mean people who disagree that he's the most likely scum are somehow mean or bad

Trying to figure out if you are deliberately being this condescending to make me doubt my read or out of townie frustration.

lol relatable

See i would self vote here

[Irrelephant11]

I've been in the tunnel, I was in one recently, it felt like everyone was being an anti-town jerk because nobody was going point by point acknowledging what I had to say, they were just going "eh I don't agree". I was very upset. I was also: wrong.

Consider your username and meanwhile give us all a minute to find some free time and engage with points made

[Irrelephant11]

I have found reasons for kenny town .

can you elaborate on this again? Just like, lay out your kenny thoughts for me?

[Irrelephant11]

You dont care why lowell wasnt the counterwagon after loftwing wagon dissolved at all and it shows.

Lowell wasn't the counterwagon to loftwing because I chose to vote frederick. It was literally up to me. Why do you think this makes lowell scum?

[Irrelephant11]

I wish there had been more votecounts on previous days...

[Irrelephant11]

@cw can you remind me why you townread loft and shoshin d1?

[Irrelephant11]

543 got me like oof.

[Irrelephant11]

lol I'm falling into a cw is scum rabbit hole when I don't want to, I want it to be kennyyyyy

@eiralox I totally get wanting a flip already but I think there's a world where bbt or kenny are alive in the last dayphase and nobody can fairly sort them because they barely got to post past d1. So I'd like them both to check in

pedit: good point I guess........ but as a matter of principle I try not to end a day phase where someone hasn't had a chance to share thoughts if they want to so yeah I'm not helping us rush things before everyone's checked in

[Irrelephant11]

Fredrick A Campbell (7): BlueBloodedToffee, Eiralox, Lowell, Confidently Wrong, Irrelephant11, FancyPants, Shoshin [HAMMER!]

Maybe cw's right and we do need to vote inside [confidently wrong, lowell]

[Irrelephant11]

I find it hard to believe that before I joined the wagon that saved loftwing, 4 townies were on it

[Irrelephant11]

Whether town or scum, kenny should get a chance to post before dying either by vote or vig shot. Especially in the scenario where there's a deepwolf

As a result of cw pushing me to re-open all the ISOs I am finding him moving toward the top of my list of suspects. My ego wants a kenny flip (called it from d1!) but I'll go with majority

[Irrelephant11]

Time to re-read lowell ig, just in case

[Irrelephant11]

Lowell as town did a good job. I think Lowell makes for a terrible endgame-scum if double bus was the plan

[Irrelephant11]

Csf liked that post.

how is this relevant?

[Irrelephant11]

the question I'm asking isn't "is it reasonable for this person to have this thought process and believe this here?" (answer: maybe, I thought loftwing's scumminess was pretty evident and I was surprised you were townblocking loft)
the question I'm asking is "Since there's obvious scum motivation to post a townblock with 2.5 scum in it, how likely is it that cw would post something like that as town vs as scum?"

In scum-lowell world, we flip cw and kenny + maybe a town pr dies and we're in 6/5p with a confirmed town vig or tracker + potentially an inno from the tracker. The primary living suspects are bbt and lowell, with 2-3 opportunities to catch scum. If the whole playerlist is ready to townlock me/fancy/eira/malcolm then the outcome of this game is kinda already decided, whatever it is

[Irrelephant11]

there's like .01% world where fancy is the amazing double-busser, or where I/eira/malcolm has done such an amazing job bussing that we've pre-won the game.

Or you, know, there's like a 50% kenny is silent because the game is over

[Irrelephant11]

Think it's crazy that you think it's crazy. Scum have motivation to be "wrong".

Yes, double bussing happens. But it gets town dangerously close to their win condition and gambles that town will use their PRs all wrong

[Irrelephant11]

and all to ride on lowell making it to endgame and winning Elo? Lowell had tons of room to do anything else and very little reason to vote gamma before fancy claimed

[Irrelephant11]

Scum!lowell had tons of room*

We're going in circles. Explain how shoshin/loftwing ISOs spew kenny town or get on board with a kenny flip

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not ignoring your posts when I say: I think kenny's iso is scummier than lowell's, and that that's a stronger point for me than rereading loft/shoshin

[Irrelephant11]

lol

[Irrelephant11]

my reads have not changed.

if cw won't vote until replacements show up and replacements won't vote until replacements show up then every other slot would have to vote together to hammer. I don't care much if kenny-slot gets to speak at this point, the waiting feels endless and the next 4 eliminations feel locked in place... I'd love the game to move, but also whatever, we can wait.

@mod going on v/la until the 25th.

[Irrelephant11]

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup

this one seems fun, I'm 30 seconds in

[Irrelephant11]

Lol it’s kind of a big deal! That loftwing considered Lowell a good enough counterwagon to vote there as self-preservation

[Irrelephant11]

Lol that you didn’t know that this whole time

[Irrelephant11]

Wait crap is it bbt

[Irrelephant11]

BBT why would you townread someone for being a commuter

[Irrelephant11]

To explain my sudden thought process

CW having a tunnel for so long on Lowell based on incorrect reasoning feels incredibly towny
Was Shoshin really the only scum on the feed wagon? When she would have happily sheeped me onto Lowell? (If Kenny is scum the answer is yes apparently)

If CW is town then why did the loftwing wagon falter? Unless it was bbt

[Irrelephant11]

It would be an elite scum move to tantrum about not getting a Lowell flip based on reasoning that… isn’t true, and then go “oops my reasoning was partially based on a faulty memory”

And I’m suddenly feeling like Shoshin being willing to sheep me meant she knew a scum partner was already on each of the two competing town wagons? But I don’t think it was cw?


I know bbt already isn’t endgaming but as long as we’re bored and waiting for replacements can we discuss this for a minute? Especially since cw probably doesn’t survive the night

[Irrelephant11]

Cw - thoughts? Can bbt be scum here?

Idk I still lean Kenny I think??

[Irrelephant11]

As I’m writing this I feel like I’m losing towncred by reopening the limpool slightly but let’s just call this a eureka moment and entertain my line of thinking for a sec. Have we been letting BBT hide behind the fact that his play is kinda audacious?

[Irrelephant11]

CSF was pretty anti-BBT

[Irrelephant11]

Town to scum:

Eira
Fancy
Kenny
Malcolm
Cat
CW
Irrel
BBT
Fred
Mala
Lowell
Loftwing

[Irrelephant11]

CSF was pretty anti-BBT

Eh maybe this isn’t as clear cut. CSF was mildly anti BBT

[Irrelephant11]

But CSF did like cw’s town lock that excluded BBT