Mini Normal 2276: Around the World - Game Over!

[Alexcellent]

Hullo, I'm getting caught up

Hi. My role in this game is Ascetic Miller.

No, I don't know why anyone would add Miller to a role which can't be investigated.

I feel like I got a middle finger instead of a Role PM this game

Is this a gag? Or is this real?

Could an ascetic miller be considered normal?

idk if theres 2 or 3 scum,

prob 3 but lets find them on day 3 so that asusuka and roden feel like they have a chance..

Not quite sure why but I dislke this. Why would there only be 2 scum in a 13p game?

VOTE: alexcellent
sup bro, first time playing with you!

What up!

So far my impression of Marci is "A version of myself that actually votes".

If anything feels a little "odd" to me, it's not the votes, it's post #27. Isn't 3/13 like, normal regulation? I assumed 4/13 (the norm where I come from) my first game and was quickly shot down. I came out with the impression it's always 3. I feel like that post is both trying to be serious but also has no reason to exist in such a context.

Also I think that is the exact picture I have on my Discord.

Cres and Marci are scum together, got it

[Alexcellent]

Oh look a kitty under my name

Thank you for getting an avatar, it genuinely helps

[Alexcellent]

why do u immediately jump to shitposting? LOL what if shoshins serious..

Yes, let's seriously come up with a scumteam based solely on a single point of interaction 80 posts into the game. That sure sounds serious~

I am very weary of shitposters right now for reasons I can't get into.

This sounds very defensive but also think I understand why

[Alexcellent]

Hi. My role in this game is Ascetic Miller.

No, I don't know why anyone would add Miller to a role which can't be investigated.

I feel like I got a middle finger instead of a Role PM this game

Is this a gag? Or is this real?

Could an ascetic miller be considered normal?

I believe it is.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Normal modifier and normal town role, the mod's just getting a little wacky with the set up. There could be other explanations besides Pooky making meme roles, but it might be anti-town to discuss that right now. I just believe that Ausuka is being honest and is town.

Ah okay, fair

[Alexcellent]

still think marci is scum and i'll be looking at everyone who is ignoring weighing in on this discussion

I like Datisi as town

[Alexcellent]

Do kind of find it interesting though that Ausuka claimed that and then no one really acknowledged it until Marci like 8 posts later or something

[Alexcellent]

So no reason for me NOT to believe Ausuka at this point, but I don't think it's impossible that scum makes that claim.

i dont really think scum claims ascetic miller on page 1, i think if ascetic they just claim ascetic without the miller part, cuz the extra detail is unnecessary to invent. simplest explanation is aus got given an actual weird neg util role and claimed it

ill leave this here for now

VOTE: marci

Hmm we get into WIFOM territory here though. Why would scum say ascetic miller and not just ascetic? Maybe so we can have this conversation. Good lies involve detail and ascetic miller is a way to say "omg guys look at this dumb role I've got, why is this a thing?" Rather than blindly going "I'm ascetic," and everyone has to decide if they believe it or not. Also the conversation is muddied a bit more because we're no longer just going "idk if I believe Ausuka", now we're going "why would this role exist?"
But yeah, I'm just thinking out loud. This early in the game I'm happy to lean more towards accepting that there's an ascetic miller.

[Alexcellent]

To elaborate, very unlikely that scum Marci calls town Ausuka's role fake. Equally unlikely that scumteam Ausuka/Marci planned this bit of drama to start the game off (besides the obvious pro-town effect of their play getting us out of RVS, it just seems too much to pull off this quickly with no real scum logic behind the play).

I feel like at least one scum would maybe want to throw shade at that claim? Idk, if I'm scum I'd want to create doubt over town!ausuka's claim

Do agree that it likely isn't staged S/S though.

[Alexcellent]

Because I agree? I don't get town from marci at all, especially the 'i haven't voted thing', which is weird in itself.

I have high hopes of being able to read Roden too.

What do you mean about the 'i haven't voted thing'?

[Alexcellent]

@Ausuka, tbh I'm leaning towards you both probably being town at the moment

[Alexcellent]

Cool, crescent, Alex and datisi are town. I much prefer Marci's recent posting too. I feel like a scum read on shoshin is a little bit lhf.

@roden, how can you tell it's that, and not the 'throwing poop' that crescent mentioned?

Because I agree? I don't get town from marci at all, especially the 'i haven't voted thing', which is weird in itself.

I have high hopes of being able to read Roden too.

What do you mean about the 'i haven't voted thing'?

Can I circle back to this Bellaphant? I don't quite understand it.

[Alexcellent]

ausuka, do you scumread alex?

I think they might still be catching up so I'm going to leave it for a bit until I commit to a push but I don't like their posting so far at all.

I'm pretty well caught up, push away

[Alexcellent]

Cool, crescent, Alex and datisi are town. I much prefer Marci's recent posting too. I feel like a scum read on shoshin is a little bit lhf.

@roden, how can you tell it's that, and not the 'throwing poop' that crescent mentioned?

Also why is Crescent town?

[Alexcellent]

Cres and Marci are scum together, got it

This reaction in particular town pinged me

Tbf that was mostly a joke reaction, I don't know if that may change your read of me

[Alexcellent]

idk if theres 2 or 3 scum,

prob 3 but lets find them on day 3 so that asusuka and roden feel like they have a chance..

Not quite sure why but I dislke this. Why would there only be 2 scum in a 13p game?

This is the first thing I dislike because it feels like artificial uncertainty. Like, Alex knows exactly why they don't like this post, and they make it very clear.

Does this mean that you think that I'm scum with Marci? Or that I'm scum and shading town!Marci? (I think the answer is obvious but I kind of want to hear it all the same)

why do u immediately jump to shitposting? LOL what if shoshins serious..

Yes, let's seriously come up with a scumteam based solely on a single point of interaction 80 posts into the game. That sure sounds serious~

I am very weary of shitposters right now for reasons I can't get into.

This sounds very defensive but also think I understand why

This post just seems like content for the sake of content. It's not a terribly scummy post in isolation but it adds to my feeling that they are more trying to look uncertain than actually find the mafia.

Eh, no real uncertainty there but I don't really want to talk on this further at the moment.

So no reason for me NOT to believe Ausuka at this point, but I don't think it's impossible that scum makes that claim.

i dont really think scum claims ascetic miller on page 1, i think if ascetic they just claim ascetic without the miller part, cuz the extra detail is unnecessary to invent. simplest explanation is aus got given an actual weird neg util role and claimed it

ill leave this here for now

VOTE: marci

Hmm we get into WIFOM territory here though. Why would scum say ascetic miller and not just ascetic? Maybe so we can have this conversation. Good lies involve detail and ascetic miller is a way to say "omg guys look at this dumb role I've got, why is this a thing?" Rather than blindly going "I'm ascetic," and everyone has to decide if they believe it or not. Also the conversation is muddied a bit more because we're no longer just going "idk if I believe Ausuka", now we're going "why would this role exist?"
But yeah, I'm just thinking out loud. This early in the game I'm happy to lean more towards accepting that there's an ascetic miller.

This is also fluffy and doesn't really say anything. It's role speculation which is easy for scum to create. It's basically just a lot of words for 'Ausuka's claim could come from either alignment'

Basically I just feel like Alex's posting is fluffy and lacks a scumhunting mindset.

I'm not going to vote yet though because a wagon on Marci already exists and I like it

I'm not going to ignore your claim though. If someone claims a PR (especially something whack like ascetic miller) on page 1 I'm going to speculate and discuss it, and I'd find it kind of weird if people avoid it. You could well be scum making a play, but as I said I'm leaning towards the claim probably being legit. But also having said that, I also made it clear that you could be scum so I get your suspicion? And it makes me feel a bit better about you as town.

[Alexcellent]

@alex, I felt it was oddly defensive, she said 'peiple are saying I've votes X but actually, gotcha, I haven't voted anyone!' it felt toned very oddly.

Crescent and you give me the same vibes really, relaxed, sharing ideas, also a little bit flexible which I think is fine for day one town. I could point to some actual posts if vibes isn't good enough

Ah okay fair enough. I didn't quite read that post like that but maybe just reading it differently.

[Alexcellent]

Anyway

I like scamper, Roden and Bella the most so far because they give me Good Vibes

Logically shoshin's progression should probably be suspicious to me. She feels more like chaotic town on a vibes level though.

Can you elaborate on these good vibes? More specifically with Bella, because when you posted this she had very little content outside of a vague-ish Marci scum read

[Alexcellent]

Very weak but okay, thanks

[Alexcellent]

Slight edit - for some reason my phone only showed the quotes and not what you actually said
I don’t quite have the same read but understand your point of view a bit better now

[Alexcellent]

I guessss that helps

[Alexcellent]

still think marci is scum and i'll be looking at everyone who is ignoring weighing in on this discussion

I like Datisi as town

still think marci is scum and i'll be looking at everyone who is ignoring weighing in on this discussion

I like Datisi as town

There aren't a lot of solid reads in this ISO, but this in particular is both early and explained only by a single post. Is there more to it?

Oh and Alex does know exactly why I'm weary of shitposting right now, he just can't say it either.

I had the same thought that people avoiding this discussion would likely be suspicious. But also Datisi's posts give off an air of trying to sort people. It's early but yeah but feels townie.

[Alexcellent]

There's a neighborhood in this game

Me
Shoshin
Roden
InsidiousLemons

Soshin might just be too chaotic for me

Is there something going on in the hood with Shoshin? i.e. anything said there that gives you much of a read?

[Alexcellent]

Yo Corwin! Are you town?

[Alexcellent]

hood reveal is interesting, i dont have a problem with std outing it since theres probably scum in a 4 person hood but i kind of wish he'd waited a bit longer so that we could have reads from people on the players in the hood + lemons could have posted

cuz right now my immediate thought is the lemons slot is probably scum but we learn basically nothing from it now if thats true

What makes you think that?

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Actually I feel like getting onboard with this

VOTE: Bellaphant

[Alexcellent]

Setting up the hood would be RNG, no? I haven't actually played in a game with a neighbourhood before (excluding a couple of Won't You Be My Neighbour games years ago). The neighbours would be all randomised surely?

[Alexcellent]

Oh really? Didn't know that, interesting.

[Alexcellent]

It depends what kind of chaos - flooding the thread, scum theatre, etc, but in terms of reads, pushes, etc, I find town to be way more chaotic.

The neighbourhood is interesting, though. I believe ausuka's claim even more now.

Why does the neighbourhood make you buy Ausuka's claim more so?

[Alexcellent]

Yo Corwin! Are you town?

Of course mate!

That's a relief

[Alexcellent]

Hmm maybe marcistar is town actually

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alexcellent

What made you reconsider Marci's alignment?

[Alexcellent]

Current reads, from towny to scummy:

Ausuka
Roden
Scamper
Crescent
Marci
Bella
Alex
Datisi
Johnny
STD
Corwinoid
Gamma

Low confidence on all reads.

Can I ask what puts Corwin second from the bottom?
He's got two posts and in one of them he admits to being town, what gives? (actually though his placement on your list is interesting to me)

[Alexcellent]

I'm pretty sure both questions have already been asked and answered?

So they have been, disregard, my brain isn't working tonight

[Alexcellent]

ur so buddy buddy

Hmm maybe marcistar is town actually

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alexcellent

This did just feel like maybe there was a post in particular that made you change your view on Marci? Or might just be the way I'm reading it

[Alexcellent]

Hmm maybe marcistar is town actually

why

I do like Marci a lot as town

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Actually I feel like getting onboard with this

VOTE: Bellaphant

This vote from Alex in particular feels scummy. It's a bit delayed to vote Bella now when their previous interactions were 24 hours earlier and nothing solvey had come out of it. I'm just not seeing much of a progression here.

VOTE: Alex

There is no progression over the 24hrs. I just decided to vote there.

Tbh I have no major scum reads, D1 is always a crapshoot for me. But the Marci train felt kind of off to me. Maybe it's all town, but I felt like if scum were on it, it's probably Bella (as opposed to scamper/datisi/ausuka)? Felt the most opportunistic, 60 felt vague. There's nothing super strong or that jumps out to me as particularly townie in her ISO and the fact others have called her town with very little content makes me interested in a flip there as well for the sake of sorting other people. She's unvoted Marci not all that long after she voted her and I can see town doing that, but could also see scum doing that too. As I said, not a strong read but I feel like my vote's wasted if I'm not using it.

[Alexcellent]

@Shoshin, what do you think of Corwin?

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Actually I feel like getting onboard with this

VOTE: Bellaphant

This vote from Alex in particular feels scummy. It's a bit delayed to vote Bella now when their previous interactions were 24 hours earlier and nothing solvey had come out of it. I'm just not seeing much of a progression here.

VOTE: Alex

There is no progression over the 24hrs. I just decided to vote there.

Tbh I have no major scum reads, D1 is always a crapshoot for me. But the Marci train felt kind of off to me. Maybe it's all town, but I felt like if scum were on it, it's probably Bella (as opposed to scamper/datisi/ausuka)? Felt the most opportunistic, 60 felt vague. There's nothing super strong or that jumps out to me as particularly townie in her ISO and the fact others have called her town with very little content makes me interested in a flip there as well for the sake of sorting other people. She's unvoted Marci not all that long after she voted her and I can see town doing that, but could also see scum doing that too. As I said, not a strong read but I feel like my vote's wasted if I'm not using it.

This is the only post of yours that really justifies the Bella vote at all, and it's... Very wishy washy.

[Alexcellent]

hood reveal is interesting, i dont have a problem with std outing it since theres probably scum in a 4 person hood but i kind of wish he'd waited a bit longer so that we could have reads from people on the players in the hood + lemons could have posted

cuz right now my immediate thought is the lemons slot is probably scum but we learn basically nothing from it now if thats true

I really do think the setup could have a four player town hood just to fuck with the players

Like I'm not saying that's what's happening but I think it's not good to let the hood shape reads too much in a troll setup

@gamma, it'snot about them being the same/anything to do with each other, more the vibe of the game. I think this from aus' explains what I was meaning - I feel this game is going to be weird.

Bella definitely answered the question already

You keep swooping in to talk for her, it's weird.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Actually I feel like getting onboard with this

VOTE: Bellaphant

This vote from Alex in particular feels scummy. It's a bit delayed to vote Bella now when their previous interactions were 24 hours earlier and nothing solvey had come out of it. I'm just not seeing much of a progression here.

VOTE: Alex

There is no progression over the 24hrs. I just decided to vote there.

Tbh I have no major scum reads, D1 is always a crapshoot for me. But the Marci train felt kind of off to me. Maybe it's all town, but I felt like if scum were on it, it's probably Bella (as opposed to scamper/datisi/ausuka)? Felt the most opportunistic, 60 felt vague. There's nothing super strong or that jumps out to me as particularly townie in her ISO and the fact others have called her town with very little content makes me interested in a flip there as well for the sake of sorting other people. She's unvoted Marci not all that long after she voted her and I can see town doing that, but could also see scum doing that too. As I said, not a strong read but I feel like my vote's wasted if I'm not using it.

This is the only post of yours that really justifies the Bella vote at all, and it's... Very wishy washy.

So you jumped onto an active train on Bellaphant for.. What actual reasons, exactly?

See below

VOTE: Bellaphant

Actually I feel like getting onboard with this

VOTE: Bellaphant

This vote from Alex in particular feels scummy. It's a bit delayed to vote Bella now when their previous interactions were 24 hours earlier and nothing solvey had come out of it. I'm just not seeing much of a progression here.

VOTE: Alex

There is no progression over the 24hrs. I just decided to vote there.

Tbh I have no major scum reads, D1 is always a crapshoot for me. But the Marci train felt kind of off to me. Maybe it's all town, but I felt like if scum were on it, it's probably Bella (as opposed to scamper/datisi/ausuka)? Felt the most opportunistic, 60 felt vague. There's nothing super strong or that jumps out to me as particularly townie in her ISO and the fact others have called her town with very little content makes me interested in a flip there as well for the sake of sorting other people. She's unvoted Marci not all that long after she voted her and I can see town doing that, but could also see scum doing that too. As I said, not a strong read but I feel like my vote's wasted if I'm not using it.

[Alexcellent]

Is it weird? I don't like answering questions for other people, but in this case she already answered the question and three separate people have asked about it. That's what I find weird.

Because it's an odd thing to say and it stands out. If she's irked with being asked about the same thing I'm sure she can handle that herself.

[Alexcellent]

@Alex; That makes no sense? If I think something is weird or scummy I'm not going to avoid talking about it just because someone else could handle it. I understand that it tends to be bad to answer questions for someone else - although I don't think I've ever seen someone call it alignment indicative - but this is at most tangentially related to that and comes off as a massive stretch of a push.

This isn't necessarily related to a push, more-so prevents her reaction. She may come in and continue to try and explain her position or have a different response than what she's already given for whatever reason (it's not common but I've seen scum do it). You repeatedly coming in to redirect people to where she's answered is speaking for her. Like yeah, it's overall pretty minor and probably nothing comes from it anyway but it's just odd to me that you've done it more than once now.

[Alexcellent]

Is it weird? I don't like answering questions for other people, but in this case she already answered the question and three separate people have asked about it. That's what I find weird.

I have read that post. I was directly responding to that post twice. What I don't see is any strong reason to be jumping on Bella's train.

What I do see is a

lot

of prebuilt excuses to excuse being "wrong" if that vote is placed on town.

Crossing my fingers that I'm not wrong then

Why do you seem so concerned she's going to get launched?

[Alexcellent]

@Alex; That makes no sense? If I think something is weird or scummy I'm not going to avoid talking about it just because someone else could handle it. I understand that it tends to be bad to answer questions for someone else - although I don't think I've ever seen someone call it alignment indicative - but this is at most tangentially related to that and comes off as a massive stretch of a push.

This isn't necessarily related to a push, more-so prevents her reaction. She may come in and continue to try and explain her position or have a different response than what she's already given for whatever reason (it's not common but I've seen scum do it). You repeatedly coming in to redirect people to where she's answered is speaking for her. Like yeah, it's overall pretty minor and probably nothing comes from it anyway but it's just odd to me that you've done it more than once now.

Ok but like
1) it doesn't prevent her reaction at all
2) I think the idea that the same question being asked multiple times is somehow meant to generate particularly useful content is nonsense, and I think pursuing why people are throwing out questions so easily is much more interesting

It isn't necessarily going to generate useful content but it has the potential to. And it does at the very least muddy her reaction because you've spoken for her twice already.
But I think we're starting to go in circles here. Agree to disagree?

[Alexcellent]

Is it weird? I don't like answering questions for other people, but in this case she already answered the question and three separate people have asked about it. That's what I find weird.

I have read that post. I was directly responding to that post twice. What I don't see is any strong reason to be jumping on Bella's train.

What I do see is a

lot

of prebuilt excuses to excuse being "wrong" if that vote is placed on town.

Crossing my fingers that I'm not wrong then

Why do you seem so concerned she's going to get launched?

This feels like Alex overextending in response to a legitimate point. If you combine this with Ausuka, it seems like he's looking to use other people to justify his vote because it's come under fire.

Why are you dodging my question and speaking about me in the third person rather than engaging directly with me? This feels like you're not trying to sort me but trying to convince other people that I'm shifty.

[Alexcellent]

There was but I'll rephrase it then - are you concerned that Bella is going to be launched? It feels like a lot of concern for someone who is only at 2 votes on D1. What is your read of her?

[Alexcellent]

There was but I'll rephrase it then - are you concerned that Bella is going to be launched? It feels like a lot of concern for someone who is only at 2 votes on D1. What is your read of her?

Completely neutral.

I have a better question for you: Bella is at 1 votes and I see someone trying to nudge along a train with weak reasoning and inbuilt excuses.

Why

would I be concerned about a Bella lim by this?

What concerns me is your vote was bad, and your reactions since are worse

That's straight up what I just asked you..

Maybe she is your scum partner and you just want to kill off a wagon before it gets going?
More than likely you're probably town, but you singling out my vote pinged me as you being defensive of Bella.

And nah, my vote's fine. You and I just vote and approach the game differently.

[Alexcellent]

Pretend that you are town and reading the following posts from someone you don't know the alignment of:

This is the only post of yours that really justifies the Bella vote at all, and it's... Very wishy washy.

So you jumped onto an active train on Bellaphant for.. What actual reasons, exactly?

Is it weird? I don't like answering questions for other people, but in this case she already answered the question and three separate people have asked about it. That's what I find weird.

I have read that post. I was directly responding to that post twice. What I don't see is any strong reason to be jumping on Bella's train.

What I do see is a

lot

of prebuilt excuses to excuse being "wrong" if that vote is placed on town.

This comes across to me as "I need to discredit this vote" and the referring to Bellaphant's wagon as an "active train" makes it sound like there's so much more steam there than there currently is, hence my questions.
But maybe I'm being defensive, I probably need other people to weigh in here.

[Alexcellent]

But the Marci train felt kind of off to me. Maybe it's all town, but I felt like if scum were on it, it's probably Bella (as opposed to scamper/datisi/ausuka)?

eh i disagree,
i havent read deeper into my wagon but i think datisis pretty scummy.

maybe ill look at both later but im busy rn so :shrug:

I'd need to look further there. My early read is that Datisi's town, felt like he's scumhunting and trying to sort the game. Probably worth noting how he appeared the instant you called him scummy though almost like that summoned him.

[Alexcellent]

I'm not sure what you're asking, Alex. Crescent's probably town despite posting like scum.

I understand why you're voting Bella, but I'm not interested in that lynch today.

I'd appreciate if you join me in sorting through Gamma/Datisi/Corwin/STD. We should lynch in this group today.

Sure, i asked before but don't think you answered. Curious about your read on Corwin given his lack of posts. Is it something to do with the hood?

[Alexcellent]

It comes off as "This vote is garbage and I think it's coming from scum."

I asked you to give better reasoning. You did not. You dug in on completely irrelevant things instead, like arguing with Ausuka about him answering things for Bella.

I don't feel town progression from your responses. I feel like you've been trying to avoid actually talking about your vote.

I am happy to talk about it, there just isn't much to talk about beyond what I had already said.

I was iffy on Bellaphant, she had very few posts, there's very little in her ISO beyond "i like this" and agreeing with other people, then her jump on Marci felt opportunistic. Stuff like 60 felt vague, as I said. Other people have town reads on her and notably Ausuka seems to have a strong town read of her, and while Ausuka gave an explanation for it it still makes me weary to have a town read on someone who has said very little. I figured it probably wasn't enough to vote yet but I saw Scampers vote there and I figured, eh, I'll sheep that. I like voting people and joining wagons (unless I'm town reading said person), I know some people find it scummy but voting someone who I'm leaning scummish on is a better use of my vote than not using it at all. I find it more concerning when people just sit on their vote tbh.

The conversation with Ausuka was more bickering over theory in the end.

[Alexcellent]

Probably worth noting how he appeared the instant you called him scummy though almost like that summoned him.

when i'm busy, i skim for mentions of my name as that is the only thing i can respond to without having to possibly backread.

do you wanna call me scum for it?

Not yet

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: marci

i think ausuka is town for the simple reason i've never seen scum claim miller and i'm running with it until proven otherwise

still think marci is scum and i'll be looking at everyone who is ignoring weighing in on this discussion

Been feeling town on Datisi based largely on posts like these. Second post read as though he's trying to force activity and discussion and prevent people from ignoring the whole Ausuka/Marci thing, which felt pro-town to me.
Gut feeling is also that I don't think scum immediately calls Ausuka's claim town but maybe I'm bad at scum.

Happy to be corrected though

P-edit: l-word brah

[Alexcellent]

It comes off as "This vote is garbage and I think it's coming from scum."

I asked you to give better reasoning. You did not. You dug in on completely irrelevant things instead, like arguing with Ausuka about him answering things for Bella.

I don't feel town progression from your responses. I feel like you've been trying to avoid actually talking about your vote.

I am happy to talk about it, there just isn't much to talk about beyond what I had already said.

I was iffy on Bellaphant, she had very few posts, there's very little in her ISO beyond "i like this" and agreeing with other people, then her jump on Marci felt opportunistic. Stuff like 60 felt vague, as I said. Other people have town reads on her and notably Ausuka seems to have a strong town read of her, and while Ausuka gave an explanation for it it still makes me weary to have a town read on someone who has said very little. I figured it probably wasn't enough to vote yet but I saw Scampers vote there and I figured, eh, I'll sheep that. I like voting people and joining wagons (unless I'm town reading said person), I know some people find it scummy but voting someone who I'm leaning scummish on is a better use of my vote than not using it at all. I find it more concerning when people just sit on their vote tbh.

The conversation with Ausuka was more bickering over theory in the end.

It kinda gave me the feeling you were using it as retroactive justification for the vote on Bella. Anyways, this post actually has a flow to it, unlike the janky excuse-filled post you actually voted in.

The last line in that paragraph kinda feels like a direct shot at my playstyle that scum

probably

doesn't take in this situation.

Naw I think I'd still take a shot at your playstyle regardless of my alignment

[Alexcellent]

Current reads, from towny to scummy:

Ausuka
Roden
Scamper
Crescent
Marci
Bella
Alex
Datisi
Johnny
STD
Corwinoid
Gamma

Low confidence on all reads.

I'm not sure what you're asking, Alex. Crescent's probably town despite posting like scum.

I understand why you're voting Bella, but I'm not interested in that lynch today.

I'd appreciate if you join me in sorting through Gamma/Datisi/Corwin/STD. We should lynch in this group today.

Why isn't Johnny in this group?

[Alexcellent]

Crescent's either very bad town or scum. Doesn't matter to figure this out today.

Alex, please join me in lynching Gamma or Datisi, your choice which one.

I need you to show me why they are scum first, Gamma's just been very null to me.

P-edit: but you had him so low on your reads, has something changed?

[Alexcellent]

Shoshin is still here so Shoshin is conftown now

It's 3am here, I'm going to bed, good night!

[Alexcellent]

i wanna soul-townread crescent for pointing out how anti-town shoshin's play is, because this rng roulette of constant naked "reads" is doing wonders for killing my motivation for this game. the fact that crescent noticed it too is probably? +town.

Yep. It's the kind of play that ruins the game for everyone involved and makes them stop trying, which is why it's so effective when scum does it.

But Shoshin just practically townconfirmed with replacement meta which makes it even more insufferable.

I was joking when I called him conftown
Him saying that’s his meta doesn’t mean anything

Okay actual going to bed now

[Alexcellent]

Wow, that's a lot of words about me.

I'm just really busy this weekend, I'm not all over the thread in a way id like so I am just trying to find town today.

With the 'i buy ausaks's claim', I think it would be easy to infer that I've had a slightly odd role pm - it looks like there a few odd things in this game, so of course I'm going to then be more acceptig of theirs, even more so when backed up by a weird neighbourhood/where the roles aren't defined.

It's super weird how many words there have been about me with very little ...reason? It feels like busy work

Ughhhhhu

UNVOTE: Bella

Fr I’m off now

[Alexcellent]

Interesting. The only comment I'm making on it is that the fairest thing for the spirit of the game to do now is to play that slot like the new person has always occupied it, so that's what I'm going to do.

I was

trying

to sleep, but someone's decided to shoot off a billion fireworks. I guess Imma get myself caught up on this and maybe they'll be spent by the time I'm done.

Yeah I'm not going to pretend like Shoshin and their 72 posts never existed regardless of how they exited the game

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: marci

i think ausuka is town for the simple reason i've never seen scum claim miller and i'm running with it until proven otherwise

still think marci is scum and i'll be looking at everyone who is ignoring weighing in on this discussion

Been feeling town on Datisi based largely on posts like these. Second post read as though he's trying to force activity and discussion and prevent people from ignoring the whole Ausuka/Marci thing, which felt pro-town to me.
Gut feeling is also that I don't think scum immediately calls Ausuka's claim town but maybe I'm bad at scum.

Happy to be corrected though

P-edit: l-word brah

my problem is these are posts from the first 3 pages of the game and since then hes done not much at all, and while you could probably say that about half the players in the game i dont particularly find it towny...

I mean yeah that's true, it isn't a very early read so nothing solid but everything else from him has mostly felt null since then. I don't have any meta with him though so I don't know what to expect from him.

anyway i caught up and heres where im at rn:

Datisi - scum
Bellaphant - scumlean?
Ausuka - town
Crescent - town?
Alexcellent - townlean
JohnnyFarrar - scumlean
Corwinoid - scumlean
Save The Dragons - nulltown
scamper - radiant lodestar of towniness
Roden - townlean
Freedom - town
marcistar - null
Gamma Emerald - town

I actually vibe with this list for the most part
Are you buying Bella's "I have a slightly odd role" post?

[Alexcellent]

Wow, that's a lot of words about me.

I'm just really busy this weekend, I'm not all over the thread in a way id like so I am just trying to find town today.

With the 'i buy ausaks's claim', I think it would be easy to infer that I've had a slightly odd role pm - it looks like there a few odd things in this game, so of course I'm going to then be more acceptig of theirs, even more so when backed up by a weird neighbourhood/where the roles aren't defined.

It's super weird how many words there have been about me with very little ...reason? It feels like busy work

@aus, I didn't want to, I assumed people would infer enough and back off and instead people repeatedly didn't read my answer, got pissed with u fy pointing it out and still wouldn't stop a fuss over nothing. Apart from you it's made everyone involved, even crescent, look scummy to me

I mean you still didn't really have to semi-claim that or infer anything in the first place

"Slightly odd role PM" doesn't really indicate alignment, but I thiiiink 519 is more likely to come from annoyed town

[Alexcellent]

Just kind of going back and skimming over some stuff from the last several pages. I missed this

why do you think it's worth noting then?

pedit: lol

Believe this was in response to me mentioning Datisi rocking up out of the blue after Marci mentioned he might be scummy
I felt it was worth noting because that sort of thing

can

be a scum trait, IMO. But it's not solid enough for me to out right call you scum for it.

I've been trying to figure out if Datisi's frustration is from town or scum. Was sort of feeling like it could be scum that's being pressured and frustrated because a lot of the pressure was coming from Shoshin, who was pretty erratic and not really giving Datisi a lot to work with so I could see that being really annoying for scum to deal with. But overall feeling like Datisi is probs town:

wow, bella is town, i can't believe that

^ this feels like the kind of snarky quip I'd see from town that feels kinda vindicated about a TR. It could be fakeable obvs since scum!Datisi would know Bella's alignment, but I dunno this remark feels like annoyed townie going "I told ya so" and I'm not sure I see scum bothering to say it?

Only thing is he voted Marci who I think is town, and he's voting me, who is town so I'm not a fan of the votes. I'm still leaning town on him though but the funny thing is I'm kind of town reading everyone that went on his wagon (Freedom/Scamper/Marci).

[Alexcellent]

Going through Gamma's ISO and there's nothing that super jumps out as scummy. It just feels super null and I didn't exactly find anything that makes me go, oh, scum. I don't like the push on Shoshin but not in a scummy way, more in a, I don't see any real scum motivation in Shoshin slot and I disagree with the scum read there sort of way. Nothing in the ISO jumps out to me as scummy, but also nothing that screams town either. Just very, very null.

[Alexcellent]

Probably leaning towards Corwin or Johnny today

[Alexcellent]

@Marci why is Datisi scum? Pls help me see it.

I probably need to look at both of your metas, I'm struggling to discern alignment indicative stuff from stuff that might just be personality over the last 2 pages

[Alexcellent]

I didn't notice there were 3 votes on Alex, but I'm also ok with them. Something has felt off about him. It feels even worse after the trend I notice in his ISO.

Probably leaning towards Corwin or Johnny today

This posts reeks of "aim for the low-hanging fruit".

He never makes an argument against either, but what's in his ISO concerning Corwin is glaring. He highlights Corwin three separate times.

Current reads, from towny to scummy:

Ausuka
Roden
Scamper
Crescent
Marci
Bella
Alex
Datisi
Johnny
STD
Corwinoid
Gamma

Low confidence on all reads.

Can I ask what puts Corwin second from the bottom?
He's got two posts and in one of them he admits to being town, what gives? (actually though his placement on your list is interesting to me)

@Shoshin, what do you think of Corwin?

I'm not sure what you're asking, Alex. Crescent's probably town despite posting like scum.

I understand why you're voting Bella, but I'm not interested in that lynch today.

I'd appreciate if you join me in sorting through Gamma/Datisi/Corwin/STD. We should lynch in this group today.

Sure, i asked before but don't think you answered. Curious about your read on Corwin given his lack of posts. Is it something to do with the hood?

His only 3 attempts to go after Corwin were aimed at drawing Shoshin towards him.

I don't feel good about Corwin so far, but this reads to me as scum Alex trying to get town Shoshin to notice town Corwin. There's no actual feeling of "solving" from anything he has done in regards to him.

Those aren't "attempts to go after Corwin", that was one genuine question that was being repeatedely ignored so it was repeated twice. Shoshin listed Corwin as their second highest scum read and yet hadn't said a thing about him and at that point Corwin had like two posts, which to me at that time wasn't enough to form an opinion so I was curious why Shoshin thought him to be so scummy (was under the assumption Corwin said something in the hood). I was not trying to "draw Shoshin towards him", Shoshin had already indicated a scumread and she seemed to be avoiding discussing it, hence the questioning.

Corwin has made more posts since then and they don't really impress and have an air of sitting back and observing and doing little to affect the game. Although I've woken up and he's voted Scamper which is interesting.
Johnny's ISO is very fluffy and has little in the way of what appears to be independent scumhunting and more of the "I like this, I disagree with this, I vibe with this". Someone else mentioned he had kind of a weird post early where (i can't be bothered looking at the moment) he kind of both implied a town read of you but also a willingness to launch you, but then later on changed from that. If there is scum on my wagon I'd be inclined to think it's Johnny.

[Alexcellent]

okay but why did you stop, what are you doing right now, how are you approaching this game

do u have thoughts beyond datisi being scum or not?

i stopped because i had work...

right now im trying to go afk cuz thats the vibes, but then yall keep making convo about me so obv im gonna join in??

my approach this game is to just say what im thinking when im thinking. i think ive done enough of that early on.
now that the game is kicked off, my intention is to go afk (which work partly helps with). the reason i want to go afk is because i dont trust my opinions when im a loud voice in the town. so i sort of want to fade out, let someone else take spotlights and then read it all after and see if i have any better conclusions then. possibly gonna mess around and hard defend someone depending on how my read on said person is.

i could prob have other thoughts but datisi loves the attention, i know deep down he does...

This kinda feels genuine to me, I think Marci is probs town

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Johnny

[Alexcellent]

@StD can you explain more on your freedom scum read/sins of Shoshin comment?

[Alexcellent]

i dont think having some slightly unusual roles is an indicator of a "troll setup". even if we assume its randomized alignments its more likely than not theres scum in the hood, and i think "oh it's a troll setup so the hood is all town" is a weird logical leap and not good thinking, b/c if it were that obvious the game just solves itself on day 1

I mean it's not a logical leap, did you read my second paragraph? I'm saying making conclusions about the amount of scum in the hood feels silly to me because anything is possible in a setup with Ascetic Millers lmao

sorry, my bad on misunderstanding what you meant there. i still dont like the idea of just going "setup is a troll so all basic assumptions about balance go out the window"

Basic assumptions about balance like you shouldn't put 2 vigs in a 12 player game, or you shouldn't make ICs bulletproof, or you shouldn't put three mafia doctors in a gunsmith game? Normal mods can and do mess with players in this way. Maybe it's pointless to talk in circles about it though.

@shoshin, we don't use the l-word on this site anymore, and i haven't gotten to this game yet. i don't lurk to "avoid posting content" or whatever else because i am more than good enough at scum to know what to post.

This is one if the reasons I town read Datisi. Not because of the self-meta here but because I've seen scum!Datisi a couple times now and this isn't it. If you don't have much of an opinion on him then he's very likely town; he's generally high activity as scum and working hard to make people want to keep him around and empathize with him.

I mean I don't disagree that Datisi is capable of being much townier than this as scum but I also think he's capable of doing more as town? And probably just hasn't gotten into the game regardless of alignment.

- i think alex reading into crescent acting in defense of bella in 412 is towny, that kind of trying to draw out unseen connections comes more often from a townie mindset of trying to fit puzzle pieces together

I mean maybe I'm biased/tunneled at this point but don't you think it kind of sounds like a BS read? There was no indication at all that Crescent was worried about Bella being eliminated by calling out Alex's post as overly hedgy and it kind of just didn't feel like a genuine thought. Idk

eh not really, i see plenty of times where townies pull out these crazy sounding reads because they get too deep in their own worldbuilding and start imagining things that arent there. i think "i am scumreading this person and now someone else is attacking me for my read of them, i wonder if they are teamed" is a thought that easily crosses most peoples minds even if its rarely accurate. it struck me as kind of an outlandish thought but not really an implausible one at all, if that makes sense.

I mean that's definitely a possibility; I just think Alex comes off as an experienced player and I don't think the connection he's drawing has any logic beyond "crescent attacks Alex who is currently attacking Bella" so I think it's more likely to come from mafia on balance.

Not really I think it was just a style clash and I was reading more into crescents tone than meaning. I disliked the way she phrased some stuff and it made me get defensive and slightly paranoid of her

[Alexcellent]

Sins of shoshin = shoshins scummy behavior. The chaos still seems a bit much to me. For that reason I'd vote freedom.

I think Shoshin’s chaotic play and hopping around reads is pretty bonkers for scum IMO, just feels very much like a town slot

[Alexcellent]

viewtopic.php?p=13378298&user_select%5B ... #p13378298

I think this is an interesting read

My first thought here is just like, she seems to struggle with scumplay a bit? So I'm more inclined to think she's scum here rather than too-scummy-to-be-scum.

Also she said she tends to be more bitchy as scum? I'm not 100% sure whether or not that applies here and I think it's hard to evaluate without being Potentially Rude

Yeah okay I’m on board now

UNVOTE: Johnny
VOTE: Marci

[Alexcellent]

@mod I’ll be VLA probably for about 3 days

I have the covid and feel like dirt, I’ll check in sooner if I feel better

[Alexcellent]

so I'm sort of aroundish and have skimmed a bit but will probably catch up properly tomorrow.

The sudden jump from Marci to Corwin is a bit jarring -- @datisi, can you give me the tl;dr for your change in read on marci? You seemed pretty deadset that she's obvscum a few pages ago.

re: Corwin -- I will probably end up voting here. His aggression isn't necessarily a scumtell to me (although I agree his responses don't look great). I initially said I'd probably vote Corwin because his ISO is pretty bare and feels like there's sort of an absence of scumhunting. But the main thing I find dodgy is this:

Hi Alex, hi Bella.

Bella 100% town because she's always town.

I'm caught up on the game but I don't have a lot to add right now, I've stayed up late to get the replacement sorted and I'm going to bed.

Hard town reading Crescent this game though.

Actually didn't ping me as necessarily scummy in a vacuum. At the time Mini 2276 was still going and I figured "oh, Corwin's probably seeing Crescent playing similarly to the last game and he's figured out she's town in that and so that's what he's seeing here". But that explanation goes out the window given that town Corwin just hammered town Crescent to end the game in Mini 2276 - indicating he didn't really have any confidence in her alignment so I can't fathom how he can be hard town reading her in this situation. And I feeeel like scum!Corwin wants to avoid confrontation with Crescent.

The only thing that gives me pause here is how abruptly everyone jumped from Marci to Corwin. Makes me a tad paranoid.

[Alexcellent]

To clarify as well, at the moment I have very much a null read on Crescent. She appears to be playing similarly as before (same kind of tone, attitude etc) but there's some slight wishwashiness that I don't really expect from her. The thing with her town play is that she plays in a way that I expect scum to play which makes her difficult to read. Her posts read like she's trying to solve so I guess she's probably town. But she dropped somewhere a few pages that I'm probably town based on player meta, which concerns me, because I am playing way worse than our last game.

[Alexcellent]

Ausuka do you think Corwin is scummy or still set on Marci?

[Alexcellent]

@datisi, can you give me the tl;dr for your change in read on marci? You seemed pretty deadset that she's obvscum a few pages ago.

there is no change, i still think she's a scumfuck

i just thought the corwin wagon could be good for the game since he was kinda scummy to me (and i don't like sitting on one wagon if it's going nowhere, and the marci wagon felt like that) and now i scumread corwin even more than before and people are actually interested here so here i am

make no mistake, i still want to murder marci if that's whta you're wondering, as evident by me pointing out more reasons why i think she's scum this morning

Oh I made the same q, this clears that up I guess

[Alexcellent]

Probs been pointed out already, but kind of weird to me that Marci has been saying she's up for a Corwin wagon for a fair bit: 670 855 and 863 all imply a scum read and willingness to launch him but now there's a wagon on him and she isn't joining it.
Also worth noting Corwin seems averse to a Marci wagon.

[Alexcellent]

Imma turn in again, will properly catch up tomorrow. Probs expect a Corwin vote from me too.

[Alexcellent]

@datisi, can you give me the tl;dr for your change in read on marci? You seemed pretty deadset that she's obvscum a few pages ago.

there is no change, i still think she's a scumfuck

i just thought the corwin wagon could be good for the game since he was kinda scummy to me (and i don't like sitting on one wagon if it's going nowhere, and the marci wagon felt like that) and now i scumread corwin even more than before and people are actually interested here so here i am

make no mistake, i still want to murder marci if that's whta you're wondering, as evident by me pointing out more reasons why i think she's scum this morning

i didn't post this >.>

Thought that question looked EXACTLY like what I just asked, lol, what the

[Alexcellent]

Probs been pointed out already, but kind of weird to me that Marci has been saying she's up for a Corwin wagon for a fair bit: 670 855 and 863 all imply a scum read and willingness to launch him but now there's a wagon on him and she isn't joining it.
Also worth noting Corwin seems averse to a Marci wagon.

cuz its going too fast imo

I mean you're not wrong

[Alexcellent]

Ausuka do you think Corwin is scummy or still set on Marci?

I think the Marci wagon is the best chance we have to eliminate scum today.

I also think Corwin has been scummy and understand the pressure there and want more from him.

Fair enough

[Alexcellent]

Now I'm heading off

[Alexcellent]

Probs been pointed out already, but kind of weird to me that Marci has been saying she's up for a Corwin wagon for a fair bit: 670 855 and 863 all imply a scum read and willingness to launch him but now there's a wagon on him and she isn't joining it.
Also worth noting Corwin seems averse to a Marci wagon.

Bad post. He already has 5 votes. Marci joining would be poor play.

… You know what her alignment is?

[Alexcellent]

Disagree. It’s acceptable for her as town to have joined his wagon, she could have done it at some point over the last several pages prior to him getting to where he is and even now if she wanted to put him at E-1 it would be in line with a read she’s had most of the day.
It is not NAI, IMO.

P-edit: I am not entirely caught up and am not ready to vote. If you’ll note she gave an explanation which I also agreed with.

[Alexcellent]

Ah, that makes more sense to me then. I haven’t looked far enough into activity times. I’m following now.

[Alexcellent]

It made sense as something interesting and worth pointing out to me

[Alexcellent]

I know this doesn’t help my case but I do love busing early, I’m pretty sure I bused my pal in the majority of my scum games here, often to my detriment. Feel free to look at my old games if you want meta. I’m aware this probably does me no favours and from other town perspectives this is pure WIFOM.

Honestly at the moment I do think there’s prooooobably scum between Corwin/Marci. They aren’t necessarily scum together but one flipping red doesn’t discount the other one which is why it’s a tricky spot. As I said before I am paranoid about the sudden exodus to Corwin. But his immediate town read of Crescent following the outcome of our last mini does feel very much not genuine.

[Alexcellent]

Both Ausuka and Datisi have been pushing the Marci wagon the hardest, I was curious where they were sitting and especially curious about Datisi who has been screaming that Marci is scum all game and now he’s on Corwin. It’s interesting to me. I am not necessarily perturbed.

[Alexcellent]

This feels like one of those damned if I do/damned if I don’t games

[Alexcellent]

{crescent, corwinoid, johny} game solved gg mic drop

i'm feeling this so hard right now

I can see 2/3, can you sell me on Crescent?

[Alexcellent]

Can you point me to specific examples or is it a full game encompassing thing?

I find her hard to read

Pedit— mm… that’s sort of how she plays as town. If anyone else played this way I’d be voting them, but she tends to throw shade around all day long and call lots of things scum until she decides to vote someone eventually.
I’m not saying she’s town but it’s kind of in line with how she acted on the game we just finished and she was town.
She has also said that her scum game is similar to her town game so idk

Pedit 2 - y’all talk quick, this was in response to StD

[Alexcellent]

i was pushing corwin before it was cool

Oh and if you wanna bring up 2273 - I town read you virtually the entire game, and I was right.

I'm not town reading you here.

That’s okay, everyone’s wrong sometimes

[Alexcellent]

[Alexcellent]

Crescent is proooobably town, I just get paranoid of players like her

Atm I’m probably leaning towards a Corwin vote but think it’s only fair to see what else he has to say before voting there
Honestly though I’m in the camp of kind of being okay with either launch

Pedit - I’m not Gera.

D1 last game I saw Elsa acting openly scummy so I was more proactive. This game I’m a bit lost. I generally don’t do well unless something jumps out to me as horribly scummy, or until there are some flips I can refer to.

[Alexcellent]

Hello I'm awake and going to try and do a proper catch up

[Alexcellent]

can we vote corwin

in before

I see.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think the scummy stuff necessarily needs to be looked at through the lens of a scum strategy.

This is a good point.
Not everybody strategises as scum. Some people as scum panic and do ridiculous things like locking into a minigame that is the easiest for scum in GotF early.

noo can we pretend it was planned... my egos shattered....
early game is easiest to find if im scum i think since ill panic easier... but my associatives always suck ass too so

can we vote corwin

Explain.
Is it to do with their push on STD?

no
its bcuz of the buddy buddying!!

It is interesting to me that Marci wants a Corwin wagon but stays on Datisi. The more I think about it the more I think they're probably unlikely to be scum together, don't think scum!Marci does a half-ass bus like this on scum!Corwin?

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: Marci

[Alexcellent]

okay i just wanna note ive repeatedly asked marci to clarify her read on datisi and shes again posted while completely ignoring me

ok and?

Stuff like this is pretty gross but maybe too gross to be scum

[Alexcellent]

Like, if you read their posts it seems like they're more ready to defend thselves than they are honestly looking for reads and reactions.

And the timing of the Marci vote is convenient for their own self preservation. And I haven't double checked, but I thought they were fully townreading Marci beforehand

Correct, I was mostly town reading Marci earlier but that was before she went into flail mode. I fairly blatantly sheeped Ausuka's read after they posted Marci's scumgame, kind of made me realise that the way Marci was acting could be scum!Marci. Tbh I'm struggling a bit there. I've unvoted but kind of think she's still not a bad launch. My brain says scum but my gut says town, y'know?

[Alexcellent]

i like crescent less and less

How funny, I'm feeling the same about you~

Stuff like this is what makes Crescent annoying to read. Like this has a bit of that OMGUS energy but that's on brand for her town game as well.

[Alexcellent]

It's ok you can call me a tryhard I deserve it

Just take the complement <3

I've been the #1 poster by volume in all 3 of my games here. I definitely know all about tryharding~

That's not always a positive thing. Over activity can hurt town and be a scum tactic also.

I just woke up and there are 8 or 9 new pages of you and marci fluffing it up substituting the submit button for the enter key. That's the point... I'm still catching up.

yall im sorry ill stop talking if it makes things easier

No, it's fine really. Some of my personal frustration with Crescent boiling over. I'd rather have people more active than not, it's just frustrating when that activity is mostly overnight for me and then I get shit on for not being immediately caught up.

I couuuuuld see this frustration coming from town!Corwin

[Alexcellent]

Is that NAI or town? Is it not a viable scum tactic to make people dislike the game enough to make them apathetic?

I read it the same way, as being worried she was pushing us out, and I really don't want my just waking up and being grumpy (mostly at a particular person) to change the way someone's playing either. I'd feel that way as scum too, because yeah, it's a game, but I can see certain players legitimately trying that.

Corwin if you're caught up now do you think Marci is mafia?

Not really feeling it, no.

I feel like it's NAI? It seems like she was worried she was stopping Corwin and Johnny from enjoying the game which I think is more indicative of the whole 'everyone is just playing this game to have fun at the end of the day' than win condition

Seems antithetical to “Marci is rude as scum”
Sure she could try to not make the game feel oppressive as scum but I think the execution of stating she didn’t want to make the game hard to read would be different
It doesn’t feel like a PR stunt.

I think this actually puts into words more of what I was feeling than I could think of. 978 just felt super off the cuff and not artificial at all, even if the general 'play' is NAI this doesn't feel like a scum way of replying with it.

I could see this coming from scum!Corwin if Marci is town

[Alexcellent]

I like 1016 Scamper's case on Corwin a lot

[Alexcellent]

Oh holy shit, you can actually post more than one sentence at a time.

and these feel exactly like the posts hes making this game, where he keeps making excuses for being behind rather than playing the game, and complaining about how spam is making it hard for him to catch up. i think what hes doing here is more or less identical to that game

If the summation of your argument is new player replacing into games plays cautiously day 1 and you're going to selectively pick the completed game for that, my response is just going to be 'fuck off.' I'll wade through the first half of that after I smoke.

I want to mention here that I think Corwin is a pretty emotional player (I don't mean offence to him, I'm sure he's a top bloke) but our previous mini did have him reacting pretty angrily to stuff he didn't like. I remember him getting quite snappy at me when I suggested a policy lim on D2 or something, and he spent a lot of the game in a 1v1 tunnel with another townie and they both kind of had weak points against each other but Corwin was sure he was scum for a long time until being convinced by the rest of town that he was tunneling.
Having said that, this is a REALLY defensive kneejerk reaction

[Alexcellent]

2273 Corwin aggressively attacked anyone to ever bring up out of game information to the game. This Corwin not only ignored Ausuka, he asked me a direct question pertaining to a different community out of "curiosity".

I think I missed this request, where's this?

[Alexcellent]

Oh and his immediate attempt to townclear me for whatever the hell reasons scumpinged me pretty hard. It felt like a pretty blatant attempt to pocket me given how he more or less refused to even be civil with me in 2273. I shot down so many bad arguments from him (On day 3 I basically obliterated every argument he had in one swoop and his response was basically "well you're still scum I don't care if I have no arguments for it"). I stopped bothering to respond because it just wasn't worth it anymore.

I don't think town Corwin immediately buddies up to me like that here.

Yup.

Tbh the most damning thing I think isn't his big blowup at scampers (although that's not great), it's him coming in and town reading you immediately. You have the same tone/vibe here than last mini, and Corwin hammered you over there. I have a hard time believing town!Corwin has a strong town read of you here.

[Alexcellent]

I mean Corwin's posts were obviously terrible

I was hoping he would post some more while I was asleep but no

Don't want to vote there because lolhammers but yeah

You think someone in this player list would lolhammer?
I don't think we have any blatant players like that except maybe Marci but think that's a death sentence for her if Corwin is town

[Alexcellent]

Hmmm, I kind of read that as you pushing his buttons and him wanting to argue with you which is on brand for him

But honestly, as agitated as he seemed to get last time, his blow up here is really substantial. And as much as I don't like to look at activity as alignment indicative, the fact he dropped those posts and has been gone for about 30 hours now isn't a good look.

Couple that with his immediate "hard town read" of Crescent. Add onto that the fact that he was apparently talking in the hood chat and not here I dislike.

I will be voting for Corwin today, and that will put him at E-1. It will probably be a few hours from now. My only thing that's stopping me at the moment is Ausuka's mention of concern over lolhammers (although not sure we quite have anyone that trolly in our game?)

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Corwin

E-1

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: Corwin

Idk I think I need to reassess this game tbh.
Will wait for Corwin to post and address points against him. Agree that JK claim is very… plain for a game that supposedly has an ascetic Miller. Gut reaction is to not buy it but I’m also not comfortable with Corwin being at E1 any more.
I also don’t think Marci comes in with those posts as scum given that she’s a likely launch if Corwin isn’t being voted off today.

Pedit - snap

[Alexcellent]

i think its mostly hard cuz ppl have this like golden trio of suspects
im in the golden trio
so i know the golden trio isnt it
but i dont know where exactly everyones clowning

if yall want to lim me go ahead, since corwind claimed jailkeep i would be the better lim anyways.
but that doesnt change what im saying
yall are wrong somewhere.

This feels town to me

[Alexcellent]

I guess if they were both scum and Corwin’s like a scum PR I could maybe see that. Idk. There’s a lot against Corwin tbh. Those posts by Marci just make it tough to see her as scum now.
If there are 4 neighbours, an ascetic Miller and whatever Bella is, does a JK really fit here?

[Alexcellent]

If there are 4 neighbours, an ascetic Miller and whatever Bella is, does a JK really fit here?

i mean, any of the neighbours could be scum

True, actually I forgot Corwin’s a neighbour

“Town Neighbour Jailkeeper”

Does this sound like a thing?

[Alexcellent]

who is penguin

he meant Bella

^

what do you actually want to hear from me?

I don't understand your position now. You unvoted and I never saw anything after that

idk, i'm still trying to decide what i want to do but i want to give corwin a chance to actually respond

Yeah I'm kinda in the same boat as this.

More I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking he probably needs to be the launch today. I just find that claim hard to buy and it's probably detrimental to accept it and hope it's not fake.

[Alexcellent]

It bothers me that he was paying enough attention after his claim to immediately snipe at me for effectively correcting Ausuka saying "it's only been 10 minutes" by saying it had been almost an hour, yet offered no content of any sort in the process.

I see him continuing to focus on all the wrong things.

Yeah. Kind of don't want to be too hard on his activity because it sounds like he's going through a real hard time at the moment. But yeah, I was kind of hoping for more content. Happy to wait a bit and see if he comes back but I'll likely be putting my vote back there soon.

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: Corwin

Idk I think I need to reassess this game tbh.
Will wait for Corwin to post and address points against him. Agree that JK claim is very… plain for a game that supposedly has an ascetic Miller. Gut reaction is to not buy it but I’m also not comfortable with Corwin being at E1 any more.
I also don’t think Marci comes in with those posts as scum given that she’s a likely launch if Corwin isn’t being voted off today.

Pedit - snap

Are people really taking ascetic miller as a serious claim? Like I completely read it as a joke, and I'm the one person who seems to take things like this too seriously.

I'm still catching up but this was a sticking point for me as I'm reading through.

I mean when I first saw it I thought it was maybe for the lols, but, yeah, that claim is serious. It was a major sticking point for the first several pages. There's been a significant amount of discussion around it throughout this game...

[Alexcellent]

@Corwin

-- What is your current read on Crescent, and why?

At the beginning of the game you said you were hard town reading her.

Roden has also said that you said this in the hood:

Corwin mentioned in the hood that they're separating themself from the game for a bit, partially because of Crescent but also because IRL stuff happened apparently.

They're also accusing Crescent of playing the complete opposite as she did when she was town in the Mini that got brought up. So uh, basically a "no u" argument.

Is this true? Because it appears to contradict your town read of her.

[Alexcellent]

I think I'm probably going to hammer Corwin.

UNVOTE: Corwin

Idk I think I need to reassess this game tbh.
Will wait for Corwin to post and address points against him. Agree that JK claim is very… plain for a game that supposedly has an ascetic Miller. Gut reaction is to not buy it but I’m also not comfortable with Corwin being at E1 any more.
I also don’t think Marci comes in with those posts as scum given that she’s a likely launch if Corwin isn’t being voted off today.

Pedit - snap

Are people really taking ascetic miller as a serious claim? Like I completely read it as a joke, and I'm the one person who seems to take things like this too seriously.

I'm still catching up but this was a sticking point for me as I'm reading through.

I find this hard to buy. Like it feels like an attempt to discredit Ausuka's claim. If this were at the very start of the day I'd buy this, but we're 60 pages in and Ausuka's claim has been taken seriously for a very long time. Feel like it's either scummy or Corwin hasn't been reading the game.

Counting the hood as a PR seems strange to me.

Did Bella ever actually claim, or did she just soft claim with the 'something weird' post? Did I miss a post here?

This kind of feels bad too. I disagree with Crescent accusing this of rolefishing and I kinda understand Corwin getting frustrated at that call out. But I still don't like this post. Similar to the other one I could see the motivation behind this being to try and strengthen his JK claim by throwing doubt on another claim, even if Bella has only really soft claimed.

I do buy Corwin's anger though. Like I think that's genuine frustration at Crescent. Don't know if that really indicates his alignment though. Could see a world where town!Corwin is annoyed at being misrepped by Crescent (I've kind of felt similar about how she's tried building a case on me, so maybe I sympathise there), but could also see scum!Corwin getting angry at Crescent's push on him here too.

[Alexcellent]

I think I wouldn't mind hearing from another hood member first if they can verify that what Corwin said in 1491 checks out.
Also it might be worth checking if he said all that stuff about her read in the hood chat before or after mini 2273 ended because I think the timing of that can be relevant.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah alright. I'm not really keen on any other wagon so I think I'm ending this anyway. It's hammer time.

VOTE: Corwin

p-edit: boo, can we pretend this counts?

[Alexcellent]

Hi corwin! Are you town now?

Are we on the same team this time? I think so since BBT isn't here.

So uh

Yeah I've been looking at that too.

Hi Alex, hi Bella.

Bella 100% town because she's always town.

I'm caught up on the game but I don't have a lot to add right now, I've stayed up late to get the replacement sorted and I'm going to bed.

Hard town reading Crescent this game though.

Yo Corwin! Are you town?

Of course mate!

Hi corwin! Are you town now?

Are we on the same team this time? I think so since BBT isn't here.

Corwin comes in and says hello to both Bella and I. Bella and I both ask him the exact same question but don't get the same response.

[Alexcellent]

It could also just be Corwin muddying his ISO knowing it'll be looked at if he's launched but "are we on the same team" does read like very wink wink.

[Alexcellent]

I do feel better about the remaining neighbours and feel like reasonable odds of Freedom and STD both being town. I'm not super familiar with neighbourhoods but having more than 1 scum in that neighbourhood feels like it could be not super balanced?

Also like Scamper a lot as town. Don't think Corwin acts the way he did to Scamper if Scamper is scum. And Scamps also had a really decent and sound case on Corwin, and I feel like scum would be a bit more cautious given they could be unknowingly pressuring their own partner?

Feeling like scum is probably somewhere in Bella/Cres/Johnny/Marci.
I don't know how to read Corwin avoiding Marci's wagon. Maybs scum avoiding being on a town wagon or maybs they're scum together but Marci didn't know it.

[Alexcellent]

Counting the hood as a PR seems strange to me.

Did Bella ever actually claim, or did she just soft claim with the 'something weird' post? Did I miss a post here?

I guess the thing I'm mulling over as well is does Corwin bring this up as he's at risk of being launched? I read this initially as Corwin kinda flailing and attacking other claims to make his claim look more genuine and I'm not sure he does that if Bella is his scum pal?

[Alexcellent]

I'm not sure he does that if Bella is his scum pal?

where tf does it say he knew his team

Corwinoid has been yeeted day 1. he was a

MAFIA BULLETPROOF TRAITOR JAILKEEPER NEIGHBOR

.

Spoiler: Role PM

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor Jailkeeper Neighbor

You are informed that ____ and _____ are part of the Mafia. The Mafia team is aware of your existence but not your identity or your specific abilities.

You are bulletproof - no number of nightkills will kill you.

You win when the Mafia reach Parity with the Town, You count towards this number for parity purposes.

You will be endgamed if Both Mafia Players are eliminated from the Game.

You have access to a Neighborhood Here:

Once per night you may visit one player - they will be roleblocked and protected from all nightkills on that night.

the sun sets, it is now night 1. sunrise in (expired on 2022-07-10 10:00:00).

Read role PM

[Alexcellent]

Can the hood peeps enlighten us on if there was anything noteworthy from Corwin in the hood yesterday?

[Alexcellent]

Funnily enough, Crescent, Corwin and I just finished a traitor game. Traitor had left a crumb/hint for his scum partner but it wasn't really picked up on until he pointed it out in the post thread.
So idk if that's really a crumb for scum!Bella or it's a fake crumb. It does feel like a very weird thing to say though.

[Alexcellent]

Marci/Corwin feels too convenient and easy idk

[Alexcellent]

True..... Occam's Razor i guess.

Corwin/Marci/Johnny
Corwin/Marci/Crescent??

I think these teams are possible. I more really badly want the scum team to have Corwin and Crescent on it because that would make me laugh pretty hard and would explain a lot about Corwin's play yesterday.

[Alexcellent]

Corwin/Marci/Bella also maybe

[Alexcellent]

im not scum

Oh i missed that post, sorry, back to the drawing board

[Alexcellent]

If I put all the players into all of my solves I'll look like a genius at the end of the game

[Alexcellent]

[Alexcellent]

The gif was in response to Marci, not the big wall of text btw

[Alexcellent]

What this means is: The chance is pretty high that both scum voted for Corwin at some point. The first place I'd look to for the second scum is that initial rush of 5 votes, as I have serious doubts of the purity of that rush. Scamper, STD, Datisi, Gamma, and Freedom.

I'm kind of hard town reading all of these people. The only one I could see is Datisi but idk if scum!Datisi moves off of town!Marci given I felt that wagon had momentum at the time, unless he's afraid that he'll look bad post flip and wanted to leave it.

Btw, I was never "drawing" Shoshin towards Corwin. Corwin had very little content in game at that point and Shoshin had him listed quite firmly as a scum read, which made me curious if she had seen something that I hadn't. Shoshin then ignored me multiple times which made me think she was avoiding the question for some reason, hence why I continued to ask.

[Alexcellent]

mfs like "marci corwin seems too easy" and then changes his opinion quickly and makes sure im in all his team solves

Alex jumping around changing teams around with no reasoning for any of them feels pre-emptively flaily to me.

You could ask me what my reasoning is, but I also get that framing my posts as scum motivated is easier and fits with your current agenda.

[Alexcellent]

Who are the four teams?

[Alexcellent]

Oh and speaking of Corwin, the only things you ever actually argued against him were directly copycatted from me. You were never actually active in pushing him as a vote, and only went out of your way to draw attention to him before you realized he was scum. You then followed some of my reasoning on him because you felt you had to, as you were also in 2273 and would know my reasons were correct.

Anyways, good luck trying to argue that any of Scamper, Bella, and I, did not genuinely believe Corwin was scum. Those two are near-townclears to me. I won't accept any scumteam that includes those two.

Where are you pulling the Scamper thing from? I never implied thinking Scamper is scum. 1527 give it a read.

Also, the copy-cat thing is incorrect. I don't believe anyone else pointed out the correlation between Corwin's townread on you and our previous mini ending where he hammered you. That was the key thing that made me believe he was likely scum given he had JUST hammered you in another game, yet believed you were town here.

#1546 says "It's not Corwin and Marci"

#1548 lists two teams
#1549 lists one team, which includes Bella so it gets instantly nixed.

And the only thing you even say about me is it would explain Corwin's play, when the opposite is true. Corwin was afraid of me. Corwin was probably afraid of Bella too.

Me saying "Corwin and Marci feels too easy" =/= proposing a scum team. You are reaching.

Johnny could work as scum if Marci is scum. He did nothing all day yesterday except for vote for me and he was averse to a Marci wagon.
Bella could work as scum given the potential for that Corwin post to have been a crumb for her. It's probably not enough for me to vote there, but it's a possibility. The only vote she made yesterday was on Marci, for like a couple of hours, other than that she didn't really do much. She implied suspicion of Corwin which is great, but she didn't know Corwin was scum. She later tried to suggest we just leave Corwin for the day, so all the Corwin stuff from her ISO is kind of nullified anyway.
You're probably a long shot as scum but I don't think it's unfeasible. Corwin's hard townread of you could have been influenced not so much by fear but by you being on his team and him not wanting any conflict there. But like I said, that's a longshot and I more just want it to be true for the lols. And I thiiiiiiiiiiink if you were scum you probably would have realised there's decent odds that Corwin's your partner, so maybe this is a moot point.

Crescent, mate, you probably are town but you are deep in the tunnel. If you have questions for me, I'll answer them, and if you think I'm scum then you should vote for me. But otherwise I think any attempt I make to interact with you will result in you trying to make that interaction fit into your "alex is scum" narrative that you've been keen on for a while now.

[Alexcellent]

i also dont really think bella "consistently" pointed out corwin was the same as the recent scum game, she basically stayed away from his wagon and hedged on it until he broke down and the elim seemed inevitable, made one mention he was the same as their scumgame and then thought about not voting him after the claim, i dont clear her on that basis at all

Agree with this.

And like, these posts come hours apart:

This is exactly what scum!corwin did in our game.

You know what, this may be controversial but I'm actually inclined to town just leave corwin for today. He did mention some rl shit in the newbie and like....if he's scum, we don't need to sort it today.

I'm soft, though.

This could be scum!Bella figuring out that she's on the same team as Corwin.

[Alexcellent]

@Marci who do you think is scum?
You also mentioned thinking Roden was killed for a reason, do you have more to add there?

[Alexcellent]

[Alexcellent]

@Johnny, can we hear why Gamma is scum?
I kind of feel like their play is very town

[Alexcellent]

^ I agree with this
There is very little content in her ISO. The only thing she has going for her is that she did point out Corwin’s play being similar to another scum game but the fact she tried to advocate for leaving Corwin alive kinda negates that.
The fact she soft claimed an “interesting role PM” or whatever and yet wasn’t NKed is interesting.

Corwin was just in a game where the traitor left a crumb for one of his scum pals so it’s not crazy to think he’d do the same here, but yeah it’s hard to tell.

[Alexcellent]

Counting the hood as a PR seems strange to me.

Did Bella ever actually claim, or did she just soft claim with the 'something weird' post? Did I miss a post here?

This is the sticking point though. I read this initially as Corwin kinda flailing and attacking other claims to try and make his fake claim more believable, which probably gives more support to town!bella, although this just be distancing I guess

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: johnnyfarrar

Is there more to this or is it more his unwillingness to explain his scum read of you?

[Alexcellent]

There’s also the fact he’s a hard read and I think that’s tactical on his part

Like he's being intentionally vague?

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Johnny

Yeah I'm okay with this. More that every time I look at his ISO I don't really see scumhunting or what appear to be genuine attempts to figure out the game. He avoided the Corwin wagon. He spent pretty much all D1 on me with kinda loose reasoning. Others voted for me too but they at least tried to present a case. His reasoning was opportunism, which feels ironic given that his vote on me felt opportunistic.

This puts Johnny at 4 votes, another vote will put him at E-1.

[Alexcellent]

@Bella, do you have reads on others? How do you feel about the Johnny wagon?

[Alexcellent]

Hi Marci, can you ask me some questions? I wasn't really here last week so I do feel a bit disconnected

See posts like this just make me feel uncomfortable. This isn't the only time Bella has done this sort of thing when someone suspects her. Like this feels like Bella turns up to react whenever someone has suspicion of her, but then sort of fades into the background the rest of the game. Which feels like Bella is only really concerned with how others are viewing her in the game and not really concerned with solving the game.

Idk maybe someone who has good meta with Bella can tell me that this is just how she plays? But I really don't like this.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, STD is quite firmly town... I'm not super keen that there's another soft claim out there but it is what it is, I guess.

[Alexcellent]

@STD, if you're not feeling Johnny, who are you leaning scum on?

[Alexcellent]

How do you feel about Freedom? And why did you think you're dying soon? Cause of the hood?

[Alexcellent]

My reads are something like this at the moment from towniest to scummiest

Ausuka
STD
Scamper
Freedom
Datisi
Cres
Gamma
Marci
Bella
Johnny

If Johnny were to be scum then I guess the implication is that his partner is more town read than him, which proooobably takes Johnny/Marci off the table following this logic? It kind of leaves a lot of other possible teams open though.
Alternatively he may just be town.

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE:

ok then

i need to reset a bit

i actually think more likely than not JF would be the one making the kill on most scumteams here

really? wasn't he collectively null at best at eod1?

in my mind most potential partners would have looked better save for, idk, marci

[Alexcellent]

Ah, I don’t fully agree but I’m with you now.

[Alexcellent]

still thinking ausuka and bella are town

scamper is spewed town from corwin's iso, and i think crescent's play around corwin really isn't scum

i don't remember why i was townreading gamma, but i'm gonna trust past!datisi

and with great sorrow i announce that i found a progression from marcistar that, in this economy, i really doubt comes from scum

so that leaves: alex, johnny, std, freedom

VOTE: johnny

i'm gonna sheep scamper for the time being. i'll try to figure out what's what at some point

Datisi what's the progression you found?

[Alexcellent]

Don't have a lot of time at the mo, will post later.

Not a huge fan of Gamma's reaction to Scamper's post. Feels very defensive.
I probably need to go through Gamma's ISO to see what Scamper's is seeing. D1 posts made me think Gamma was town, I think mainly her interactions with Ausuka? I'll have to go back though.

Understand and almost agree with the Crescent vote in a way. Cres is slinging a lot of mud and I've felt a lot of her attacks on me have been built around misrepping me to build a bogus case against me, so it's hard to see town motive there, but I think

she

probably believes the case is good and this is also probably how she plays regardless of alignment. I think she can be scum but as I've only seen her town game, it's difficult to tell this and that game apart, which suggests that she's proooobably town here.

Honestly there's some stuff with Datisi I think I need to look further into. I've been mostly town reading there but there's lingering D1 stuff that felt a bit iffy and something about his voting just feels convenient to me. I probs just need to do a re-read.

[Alexcellent]

Hard disagree with ^ because I actually vibed with what gamma was saying. I think gamma is 100% town, partly because of the attack on me and partly because of vibes.

STD is also town.

Cres and aus probably still town, Marci is at least null now. Could elim in Alex/Johnny/datisi basically

Huh? What did you disagree with?

[Alexcellent]

I am confused, are you disagreeing with Scamper's wall on Gamma or disagreeing that I think Gamma's response looks defensive? Also you're vibing with what Gamma is saying but think Crescent is town?
I am perplexed.

[Alexcellent]

JF has 8 posts today.

6 have absolutely no value.

7th is basically sheeping me on Scamper. Also says Scamper needs to re-examine his thought process.. At least Scampwe has a thought process.

The other is his one true content post that says the most likely scum on Corwin is Gamma, and 36 hours later we still don't have a reason why. It kinda looks like he ripped someone right out of the POE in my wall without thinking it through.

He voiced some very light suspicion on Gamma in #634 yesterday, but the reason is very vague and an excuse is made not to pursue it. We still don't know what Gamma did towards me that spurred it.

I love how I start the day by saying the most likely POE is Alex + Datisi or Gamma, and it's specifically those 3 people now sitting on Johnny after Scamper's unvote.

the fact that these two posts come from the same person, only a page apart, is hilarious

no, i'm not unvoting a scummy slot just because there's an unreliable "clear" on them

^This feels very fake given that it very closely is followed by:

VOTE: gamma emerald

pew pew

VOTE: alex

meh

gamma's vote on bella is actually maybe crazy enough that i don't think scum thinks of it? idk lole

VOTE: bella

sure

Datisi has voted 5 different people today and his vote tends to move as soon as momentum for his current wagon dies down. This does not feel like he's looking for scum, so much as he's just looking to kill someone.
Like I could give the vote hopping a pass on D1 but on D2 it feels gross.

And I find it hard to believe that town!Datisi is okay with a Bella launch:

wow, bella is town, i can't believe that

^reaction to Bella's soft claim.

i still think bella is more likely town than not due to softing her role and due to surely, surely the mafia traitor not playing around his main scumbuddies like that (surely?)

but i'm not actually that sure in it so if she got run up to claim, i wouldn't cry about it

This reads to me more like "I think Bella is town and I'd like to see what her full role is"

FWIW if Datisi didn't jump onto the Bella train, I'd be all over that wagon. She's basically been a non-entity this game and feels like she could be scum trying to hide under the radar, but my mind can't reason why Datisi would vote there after town reading her, which I think means he's probably scum.

VOTE: Datisi

[Alexcellent]

i think i misread what my role does

Can you elaborate more on it?

[Alexcellent]

I'm still open to a Johnny launch tbh

[Alexcellent]

Bella pressure might end up being a good thing to try to force her to engage the game, kinda like the Johnny pressure was.. Trying to do. I don't feel great about it, but I also don't think a claim a necessary. JF did not claim at -2.

Speaking of past Gamma games a moment, Gamma is already way above their 2272 post count (a game in which they were town). The level of engagement/aggression in general here is markedly higher than it was that game. It's possible Gamma is a mood influenced player like I am and that's why it seems like STD and Scamper are conflicting. I'm already in bed but I'll take a look at that ISO tomorrow.

I gave a personal argument on Alex, which he ignored when he voted Datisi for vote hopping, which, to be fair, was a legit criticism. I'm not sure what Datisi's argument on Alex is.

But it is interesting that Alex did not address it at all.

If you compare this game to the last game you played with me it probably would appear different, but two different games with different people and different reads. A lot of my town games involve a pretty less than stellar D1. I probably also stood out more in the last game given the amount of anti-town/non-contributing players we had. I have not been engaging with you much because I feel that a lot of your pushes on me have seen you misrep me a lot. I believe that you are tunnelling me and the more I interact with you, the more likely you are to continue tunnelling and misrepping me.

As I said before, if you've got questions for me I'll answer them, but I feel like you're looking for reasons to call me scum rather than actually trying to discern my alignment at this point.

[Alexcellent]

I dislike all of Johnny's latest posts, especially the one asking for a claim from Bella.

[Alexcellent]

So here's where I'm at atm.

On one hand I think Bella has reasonable odds of flipping red. I've glanced through some other town games of hers and she seems to contribute significantly more than this. The fact we're this far in and she's only made one vote the entire game and that was super early really doesn't feel pro-town at all. I do understand she went VLA for a while on D1 but still. Maybe I need to find one of her scum games.

On the other hand, I strongly dislike both Datisi's presence on her wagon and Johnny now claiming intent to join -- and asking for a claim while she's still E-2. Don't really get that.
I was kinda going to excuse Datisi's voting if he stopped on me or whatever because at least he could say he's voting within his scum pool, but the fact he's been openly townreading Bella but is now voting there feels so hard to justify as town. Like he had such a snarky "oh look Bella's town" reaction to when she softclaimed that it made it seem like he had a genuinely strong townread. Now he wants to run her up to a claim. The only thing that's making me second guess there is that I think scum are a little more careful than this in general. But idk, seems like such a blatantly scummy vote. But I guess that depends on what Bella flips.

With StD retracting his result on Johnny I'm kind of inclined to vote back there, particularly because there's still just... no scumhunting or anything there at all and his sudden interest in a Bella wagon smells bad y'know?

So idk, if Bella's red I think that prob clears Datisi and makes Johnny look better.
Would like to see more from Freedom as well but I still think that slot is town.

[Alexcellent]

Sorry, 2 votes* not 1 vote

[Alexcellent]

Was gonna type 'u smell bad' but I thought that was too mean. I'm sure you smell just fine

I smell like Eternity for Men by Calvin Klein. "U smell bad" would have gotten you points for the truth.

[Alexcellent]

Datisi has voted 5 different people today and his vote tends to move as soon as momentum for his current wagon dies down.

yes. i want things to happen. wagon on a person generally forces them to do things. if there's not a wagon building on them, i can help build another one. it's not rocket surgery.

i think the only two things that need to be said in response to alex's "case" is
- he's looking at a thing i am doing, and attaching a scum!motivation to it without considering what a town!motivation for it could be.
- i'm not townreading bella strongly enough anymore to be against the wagon on her. the weird softclaim was townie in the moment, but looking back it's nowhere near as it felt.

also, the idea that scum!me would be "just looking to kill someone" is lel but alex doesn't know me so this is excusable.

Yeah dude if I see someone hop around from wagon to wagon and finally pile onto one of their own town reads it's kind of hard to see town motivation in that? This is made worse more so by the fact we know this player has already implied not being vanilla so your pressure can (and by the looks of it, probs will) result in outing a PR, whether it's genuine or not. Maybe Bella's scum and this is all moot, but your mindset there doesn't click with mine if you're town. I've been saying she could be scum for a long time but even I'm hesitant to vote there in case I'm wrong and she's actually a town PR. I feel like your vote there, if not scummy, is at least not exactly coming from a pro-town mindset.
Like I like to get vote happy and join wagons for the sake of pressure too, but I don't actually do it to someone I've been calling town for most of the game unless there's something jarring that makes me change my read.
I acknowledge that you claim to not feel as confident about her as town any more, but it looks and feels off to me given how strongly you previously seemed to feel.

[Alexcellent]

Although the more I think about it, she is kind of half claimed anyway so maybe her being pushed to claim isn't as big of a deal as I'm making out anyway. And it has irked me that Roden was targeted last night and not Bella? Like end of D1 felt like Bella was reasonably townread by everyone and had already softclaimed something so I assumed she'd be killed. If I'm scum and she's legit I'm shooting her 99% of the time unless I have a roleblocker, but I don't think scum would have one given Corwin was a JK. Unless Roden implied somewhere here or in the hood that he was more than just a neighbour. But yeah, her being alive is suspicious. Along with the Corwin crumbing and the total lack of scumhunting from her, and her wanting to keep Corwin alive D1.

Yeah idk. I'm probably wrong on Datisi. I just woke up to like 3 different votes from him including on one of his town reads and it looked gross af.

UNVOTE: Datisi

Happy to revisit this later though

P-edit: that's a lot of posts

[Alexcellent]

I hope there are 2 ascetic millers in the game

[Alexcellent]

Unless Roden implied somewhere here or

in the hood

that he was more than just a neighbour.

@std, did this happen?

I'm not STD but he didn't imply anything other than that he loved roles which were like Corwin's.
So that might've implied things.
He did wonder if the remaining Mafia were Goons.
He did make a curious comment too. He remarked that due to Mafia having Multitasking, they have to have at least one PR.

When did he mention that about Corwin's role? Like when Corwin claimed JK?

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I didn't know the neighbourhood had night talk, I might be dumb

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Ah, I am dumb

I don't thiiiink any of that stands out as anything that would shout "I've got a fancy role!"
Even if it did, the implication would imply either STD or Freedom are scum and I strongly doubt this is the case.

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Bells hasn't even posted in 29 hours so that's a thing.

Speaking of role interactions though, my last game had a town power role that could effectively break other town power roles through interaction conflicts.

He could kidnap someone into a PT for 24 hours to interrogate them, then decided if he wanted to kill them or let them return to the game. He targeted the guy who gave pineapples to everyone who targeted him, but his role didn't get a pineapple because of the whole kidnapping thing.

The pineapple giver basically spent 4 days screaming about that pineapple that the other guy was insistent he never received.

"Kekeke".

Due for a prod soon. And her last post 1744 was... weird. Still waiting on a follow up on that.

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I think I'm pretty content with a Bella claim/ potential launch.
I think I'm accepting that Corwin crumbed to his partner. The idea that he would fake crumb but not actually try and communicate with his scum partners feels like we're overthinking. And I can see Corwin on his way out realising "oh shit, I'm going to die and I've crumbed my partner, I need to fix this". Also he had questioned Ausuka's role, it would seem conspicuous if he didn't also question Bella's. I don't think it's a stretch to think he'd try and create distance with her.
Also if it were a fake crumb, why Bella specifically? Can't say it's because of her soft claim since that came after his crumb. Also if it was a fake crumb I think that suggests Corwin came in with the intention of dying early and not interacting with his partners and I don't see why Corwin would play that way.

If that was a fake crumb by Corwin, then well played to him, but I don't think it was.

Also I think Bella flipping scum clears Datisi. I don't think Datisi plays hot potato with his votes just to end up busing.

BTW I think I've decided that the hood is just town. I think Roden was probably killed for being a town read hood member and that probs suggests Corwin was the only hoodscum. I think if scum were still in the hood then they probably aren't too stressed by it. But if the hood is all town, I can see scum being anxious about there being a PT between townies that they can't see and have no influence over, hence dead Roden. So I'm pretty happy just to say Freedom and STD are both town.

Also going back I don't still don't think Bella needed to soft claim when she only had 2 votes on her. And 33 posts, most of which have little to no impact, in a game with almost 2000 posts is not great.
I'm just doing this VOTE: Bellaphant

That's E-1

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Not to be

that

guy but I did see her online earlier so I feel like if she’s town it doesn’t take a lot of time to just pop in and claim…

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Tbh this might sound bad but I don’t hate one of you hammering here. Unless Pooky wants to move the deadline this gives a replacement 3 and a half days to read 80 pages and replace into a position that’s at E-1 with a soft claim. It’s a rough spot to be in. But it’s up to you guys. Maybe everyone should weigh in here, idk.

Pedit- fair

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I’m okay with this

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I wish StD had just openly discussed this with us given he'd already soft claimed.

I strongly doubt any town protection roles would have guarded Johnny too, so yeah very much not clear.

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Ausuka, Scamper and Freedom are still firmly town to me.

I still don't really know what to think about Marci. Her D2 posts looked a bit better but she's hard to read.

Scum is probably in Datisi, Gamma, Johnny.

I'm just doing this.
VOTE: Johnny

We have 3 confirmed town PRs and Ausuka's claim makes 4. I'm doubting there's anything on the town side that exists to have protected Johnny.

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Oh wait, I just read StD's role and saw the non-vanilla thing, lol. Yeah still doesn't clear Johnny and reasonable odds he's scum IMO given we have 4 town PRs out there. Probably higher odds of him just being mafia [insert power role].

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Okay, now that I'm *slightly* less mad - looking at the flip, I'm assuming this means STD targeted johnny on night 1? So that means johnny is a PR since he didn't die?

During N1, the target that STD claimed was Johnny.
This doesn't reveal that Johnny is a PR though.
It might've been that he was protected or STD was prevented from NKing him.
It's somewhat funny that I thought that STD would target Crescent and was thinking of telling him not to in our hood.

The only thing we know of that could have blocked or protected anyone was the scum JK. I feel like there's reasonable odds that there probably isn't a town doc or anything. I know I'm probably overanalysing and meta gaming but I think a lack of doc/town protection roles would explain why StD was a simple vig and can't kill PRs.
I'm doubting anything else prevented StD from carrying out the kill though, I feel like scum having a JK and RB would be pretty busted. I think it's more likely that scum have an investigative role given the existence of a traitor and that would probably give more credence to the miller claim.

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Okay, now that I'm *slightly* less mad - looking at the flip, I'm assuming this means STD targeted johnny on night 1? So that means johnny is a PR since he didn't die?

During N1, the target that STD claimed was Johnny.
This doesn't reveal that Johnny is a PR though.
It might've been that he was protected or STD was prevented from NKing him.
It's somewhat funny that I thought that STD would target Crescent and was thinking of telling him not to in our hood.

Also adding onto what I said before, re: this. I absolutely think there's zero chance he was protected by anyone as town. For one I can't see any doc or similar thinking Johnny needs protecting. Secondly, if we have a doc or something, I can't think of any reason why they don't protect StD last night.

Datisi

Bellaphant

- town complex friendly neighbour

Ausuka

- town ascetic miller*

Crescent

- vanilla town

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JohnnyFarrar

Corwin

- mafia JK traitor neighbour

Save The Dragons

- town simple vig neighbour

scamper

Roden

- town neighbour traffic analyzer

Freedom
marcistar
Gamma Emerald

* - unconfirmed

I can't say this with 100% certainty obvs but I don't think any town protection role or BP or anything fits with this setup. Tbh I think strong odds that all town PRs are known now. Vig only being able to kill vanilla and Friendly Neighbour only being able to interact with vanilla says that there's probably a fair amount of vanilla left over.

I tend to believe Freedom is town by the way of Corwin being scum and Roden's death sorta suggests to me that scum wanted to weaken the hood. Not confirmed town but I would doubt he's scum.
Scamper's entire play screams town.

Datisi/Johnny/Marci/Gamma is the scumpool from where I sit. I think based on StD's result (and most of his play) Johnny should probably be the lim today.

We have 8 players (presumably 6 town/2 scum left probs). If we mislim today, I think tomorrow is MyLo.
Will go back and read deeper into some ISOs I think. I have doubts about scum!Datisi now based on some other stuff but it could still be him. I need to take a harder look at Gamma.

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If Johnny was protected I don't see the reasoning why a townie would do it, and given how many PRs we have already I'm doubting town has further protective powers in any case. At the same time I doubt scum have much means to protect as well given they've lost their JK (unless maybe scum BP?). But in any case I think the most likely explanation is Johnny is a scum PR.

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Are we doing massclaim today? That seems like it would make sense

I was thinking that but wasn't sure if it's better to hold off a day or not

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Actually yeah, fuck it, probably is for the best rather than risking it on MyLo/LyLo

I'm VT

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@Freedom, did StD say anything in the hood during the night? You two didn't have any discussion about who he should vig or anything at all?

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What even is this game

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town one shot novice complex vigilante

Can you ELI5 what this does compared to simple vig?

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wheres all the vts this is so sus

i think i believe datisis

Agreed-ish. I feel like surely one of those two claims are bogus. Surely?

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Oh wait i think i'm with it. You tried to shoot me and it didn't work because I'm VT?

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Scamper/Marci/Gamma can you folks claim please?

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UNVOTE: Johnny for now

I have a real hard time buying these claims at face value.

Once everyone's claimed I'm keen to hear the rest of Johnny's results.

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I don't remember this, my brain may not be working. Can you remind me what it was?

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Okay thanks

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do u know what johnnys claim means

the only word i understood was doctor so i trusted it based on that

I believe he can only protect someone who is vanilla, and voyeur can see what action happened to who he targeted that night. I think. He'll probably have to confirm this.

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town one shot novice complex vigilante

Can you ELI5 what this does compared to simple vig?

one bullet

can't use it n1

fails if i target a vanilla

Thanks. Sorry it didn't work?

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This game's making me feel dumb and I'm starting to doubt all of my reads.
I'm just gonna wait for the rest of the claims and for Johnny's follow up and then go from there.

P-Edit: Yeah maybe, there's so many PRs out there it's kind of hard to say. But also a lot of the PRs are so janky and weird. I have no clue any more tbh.