Mini 2274: Terminator: Salvation Game Over!

[Aisa]

Noting the short phase deadline with disconcert, I make my entrance and say I'm excited to play with you all.

I'm not a fan of the instant heals... like, as soon as someone hits 6 they're a leader, so like yeah. plus post cap situatiion like, ehhh LOVE the gifs though

Hi! Do you feel different about the heals in particular? Would you feel this way if they were votes? Surely people can count?

HEAL: Andante

[Aisa]

I have no idea who I'd want as a leader just looking at the player list. From what I'd guess though, we want to elect consensus town reads who are also good at reading others, since it looks like we'll have to rely on them to make choices in future events.

I'm thinking that's a resistance fighter mindset right there. How easy do you think it would be for you to bamboozle me as a terminator?

[Aisa]

I have no idea who I'd want as a leader just looking at the player list. From what I'd guess though, we want to elect consensus town reads who are also good at reading others, since it looks like we'll have to rely on them to make choices in future events.

I'm thinking that's a resistance fighter mindset right there. How easy do you think it would be for you to bamboozle me as a terminator?

I think you are way too serious as for a read based on one post

Why yes people irl do tend to complain that I'm too deep

On an acc serious note I know, I'm not basing my whole read on one post, I was just trying to express a very mild townlean.

[Aisa]

If we are concerned about Andante being leader (I haven't played with her before) that is fair enough and we can think about "leader-ing" someone else, but FWIW I think I agree with Loki's idea of trying to heal town. After all, one of the only pieces of moderator-confirmed information we have is that a town leader should be good for the town. Doing anything other than healing townreads seems equal to acting on the basis of setup speculation, and IMO would require slightly stronger justification than what we've seen so far. (P-EDIT: since I've started writing this I see this has been discussed and people mostly seem to agree with me, but eh, not gonna throw away what I've already written.)

Also, if we are concerned about putting too much power in the hands of one person there might be ways to mitigate that? For example, we could ask whoever we elect as leader to pre-commit to keeping other's votes into account. For example, if 'leader' = dayvig, we can ask them to just shoot a consensus elim. If 'leader' = can determine the pool of elims on the next day, we can ask them to put people we all suspect in the elim pool, and so on. Of course, this may not work if the leader is some sort of night-acting role.

@ejjinami

64 - if later you think of anything I can do to make your experience of playing with me better let me know, regardless of my alignment I'd like you to have a good experience in this game. But it's also ok if I just ping you and you can't explain why.

I see some discussion of my playstyle. While I'm not sure it's amazing for gamestate to get hung up on the three posts I've made so far, I also feel the urge to explain myself, so gonna stick it in a spoiler tag:

Spoiler: spoiler

she seems to be showing similar practice to me in her read formation, in a way that make me feel like she's town
I tend to also form reads pretty spontaneously as town, and the justification can be rather slim

[...]
Oh I missed that. Why are you getting bad vibes from them?

Frankly, probably just their playstyle(TLDR: possibly NAI)
The way they gave someone a town-read and asked “how likely they are to deceive her as scum” – pinged me as slightly lamist. The question makes little sense so early in the game, especially near a town-read based on 1 post
I’m not exactly treating it seriously tho
It could very easily be a playstyle clash
Or just a question to get the game started
tbh I feel kinda stupid even talking about it that much
just ignore it, I'll get stronger reads eventually

I think I rely on tone a little more than most players, so I suppose it can feel like my reads are out of nowhere to an outside observer. My internal experience is nothing like that: I can spend a fairly long time re-reading posts, trying to gauge tone, and generally agonising over which way the balance of evidence points.

The "how likely are you to deceive me as scum" question is partly an attempt to get the game started, yeah. Sometimes I like to come off slightly stronger than warranted to see how people respond.

Also, UNVOTE: , things are getting serious and I'm not ready for a serious heal yet.

[Aisa]

I laughed way too hard at that ISO of mine linked... like wow... hahaha. wow, thank you for the laugh Loki!! wow.. a whole year ago..

Umm at this very second, I'd probably heal ejjinami and NotAHecticAlt, I feel a little better about ejjinami over NotAHecticAlt

and 102 has me against healing Aisa, it's a lot of repeating what I initially said, so gut is telling me it's scum trying to look towny, like she acknowledges "since I've started writing this I see this has been discussed and people mostly seem to agree with me, but eh, not gonna throw away what I've already written." but like, it was like 2 hours ago I said this.. ehhh I don't feel great about Aisa.. this post screams "I'm maf!! make me leader!!"

"Since I've started writing this I see this has been discussed and people mostly seem to agree with me" was shorthand for "I skimmed some of the discussion. On a more careful reread people have already made these points, and it's also been discussed more since I started writing this".

I realise this sort of posting is anti-town and it would make life better if my posting were accurate the first time around. What can I say, eh, digesting posts fully is hard and the thread is busy right now.

[Aisa]

eh, digesting posts fully is hard and the thread is busy right now.

I mean, isn't a busy thread good for reads?

It can be. It's not good for reads if there's so much content that people struggle to digest it. Remember I brought up the busy-ness to justify why I wrote a post that essentially repeated your point.

Incidentally I'd also like posting to slow down a bit. On that note, I will retreat into a cave until tomorrow so I can stop playing into the hyperposting. And also because I'm busy the rest of the evening.

By the way, Andante's posts are coming in quickly and they seem fairly natural and I have a townlean on her.

[Aisa]

If we are concerned about Andante being leader (I haven't played with her before) that is fair enough and we can think about "leader-ing" someone else, but FWIW I think I agree with Loki's idea of trying to heal town. After all, one of the only pieces of moderator-confirmed information we have is that a town leader should be good for the town. Doing anything other than healing townreads seems equal to acting on the basis of setup speculation, and IMO would require slightly stronger justification than what we've seen so far. (P-EDIT: since I've started writing this I see this has been discussed and people mostly seem to agree with me, but eh, not gonna throw away what I've already written.)

Also, if we are concerned about putting too much power in the hands of one person there might be ways to mitigate that? For example, we could ask whoever we elect as leader to pre-commit to keeping other's votes into account. For example, if 'leader' = dayvig, we can ask them to just shoot a consensus elim. If 'leader' = can determine the pool of elims on the next day, we can ask them to put people we all suspect in the elim pool, and so on. Of course, this may not work if the leader is some sort of night-acting role.

@ejjinami

64 - if later you think of anything I can do to make your experience of playing with me better let me know, regardless of my alignment I'd like you to have a good experience in this game. But it's also ok if I just ping you and you can't explain why.

I see some discussion of my playstyle. While I'm not sure it's amazing for gamestate to get hung up on the three posts I've made so far, I also feel the urge to explain myself, so gonna stick it in a spoiler tag:

Spoiler: spoiler

she seems to be showing similar practice to me in her read formation, in a way that make me feel like she's town
I tend to also form reads pretty spontaneously as town, and the justification can be rather slim

[...]
Oh I missed that. Why are you getting bad vibes from them?

Frankly, probably just their playstyle(TLDR: possibly NAI)
The way they gave someone a town-read and asked “how likely they are to deceive her as scum” – pinged me as slightly lamist. The question makes little sense so early in the game, especially near a town-read based on 1 post
I’m not exactly treating it seriously tho
It could very easily be a playstyle clash
Or just a question to get the game started
tbh I feel kinda stupid even talking about it that much
just ignore it, I'll get stronger reads eventually

I think I rely on tone a little more than most players, so I suppose it can feel like my reads are out of nowhere to an outside observer. My internal experience is nothing like that: I can spend a fairly long time re-reading posts, trying to gauge tone, and generally agonising over which way the balance of evidence points.

The "how likely are you to deceive me as scum" question is partly an attempt to get the game started, yeah. Sometimes I like to come off slightly stronger than warranted to see how people respond.

Also, UNVOTE: , things are getting serious and I'm not ready for a serious heal yet.

I know I know I said I would leave for the rest of today. Except my friend has left me alone and bored and I am having to fend for myself and I just happened to pop by and noticed the newest vote count. I have not read the rest of the thread.
I am gonna assume unvote tags are not ok for setting my heals to no one?
If so HEAL: no one

See you tomorrow folks

[Aisa]

HEAL: ejjinami
Also quite liking ejji for leader at the moment. The volume and flow of their posting seems natural. For example, their reaction to some of my posts feels not overthought; I also like 220. I did a quick search and didn't find any past games as scum. Assuming they're not an alt this also raises my confidence in them being town slightly? I think that if they are fake town-spewing they are doing pretty competent town-spew, to the extent I'd expect it to be slightly out of reach for a newer scum player?

Admittedly am slightly susceptible to tring high volume posters and people who agree with me, so here's to hoping that's not the case x

If my count is correct, ejji has four heals at the moment. Would love to hear from anyone who has reservations about ejji.

Anyone kicking around rn and want a quick chat?

[Aisa]

"Since I've started writing this I see this has been discussed and people mostly seem to agree with me" was shorthand for "I skimmed some of the discussion. On a more careful reread people have already made these points, and it's also been discussed more since I started writing this".

I realise this sort of posting is anti-town and it would make life better if my posting were accurate the first time around. What can I say, eh, digesting posts fully is hard and the thread is busy right now.

What, the game only had 5 pages at this point

[...]

Sounds like yer attention span is better than mine

Because I'm critiquing both Loki and Not Hectic, presumably, and the Loki read is about NotHectic.

I think bad reasoning knows no alignment. Even if I'm having questions towards someone's motives, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to arguments being presented against them.

Or, perhaps, I'm mistaken about what you're getting at

Yeah

Or more specifically

NotHectic has a read that you don't understand

Loki also thinks NotHectic's reads are hard to understand

I found this a bit convoluted and it took me a couple rereads to understand, which makes me lean slightly town on CSF

[Aisa]

[...]

I have the highest post count and i seem to be invisible to you - wanna talk about your read on me

I haven't really talked about many players in this game, I guess you could say most of the playerlist is invisible to me. But would love to talk about my read on you. No clue how to read you so far. I feel like some of your comments are a bit speculative. This, for example:

Loki's interest in being on Andante's good side, knowing how Andante tends to play, comes off as a scum pocket in the sense that they're trying to look good by giving andante leader ? this is like strictly a preflip off seeing andante as town and noticing how loki is treating Andante, as matter of fact town who has good reads and not separate from that, if that makes sense.

ejj feels LAMISTy in like a subtle way too


so rn like preliminary scumpool is [FB/ejj/Loki] for independent reasons.

gamma/CSF had weird entrances too

for your theory to make sense we require Loki = scum, Andante = town, and I felt like that was a slightly strong assumption.

Respectfully, I also think you're wrong about Loki putting words in your mouth, but was wondering whether that was a reaction test of some sort maybe?

[Aisa]

I do think this is a good post:

RR trying to hedge a read without appearing to do so

very creative strategy, I'll have to try it sometime

I agree with you! It does feel like Radical Rat is a bit fence-sitty in the post your are referring to. Ultimately they are stating a lot of hedge-y views but not doing a ton to advance the game. The caveat is that it could just be playstyle, and I haven't really had time to look into what their playstyle is.

RR trying to hedge a read without appearing to do so

very creative strategy, I'll have to try it sometime

forgive me for being blunt, accusing people for doubtful reasons at best won’t accomplish much at this point
You wrote that read without thinking much, possibly a response to a scum-read on you.
Possibly as a way to maintain the leader-persona
please, quit it.
it just makes you appear unpredictable. It would be good to have some way to determine whether you seriously think of scum-reading someone or it’s just a reaction-test
[...]

The point was they made a scumread by dressing it up as a maybe townread - I dont think this kind of "testing the waters" is towny and frankly, looks outing to me.

Though if the "scumread dressed up as a maybe townread" you're referring to is Loki's read on you, I think you're misinterpreting what they're saying.

To summarise - I think you sometimes make good posts, like 191. I also agree with most of your reads: ejj is my strongest townread, I have a townlean on Andante, you previously said you think I am town <3<3, and I think this is promising at it makes you slightly less likely to be pushing an independent agenda. Writing this has made me realise that I should update my view of you slightly, and I'll have you as a very slight townlean.

However, I get the vibe that you'd be able to make the posts you've made so far as scum, too. This is compounded by some of the issues I mentioned in my previous post. I worry that you're clinging a little to your read on Loki and acting slightly "aggressive" in order to look like you're doing something. I think sometimes interacting with people in real time helps me form a better view of them, so NotHectic, wanna tell me if my impression of you is accurate?

[Aisa]

Ejj feels like the Town version of The Alt (not) Formerly Known As Hectic.

Like, they're similarly hyperposting, both coming off as somewhat arrogant, and tinged with LAMIST.... But for reasons I can't quite articulate, Ejj's posting seems genuine, while citceH's doesn't.

I think I know what you're referring to re: ejj feeling genuine and NotHectic not feeling as genuine. But I would say they have quite different posting styles. I think ejj's posting style may be more "introspective" or "stream of consciousness-like", which to some, maybe myself included, may inherently appear more towny.

Could I ask you to take your post one step further though? "NotHectic does not seem genuine and I cannot explain why" is not exactly a committal statement. Can you try to explain what about it comes off as not genuine? You thought NotHectic was probably town yesterday, have you changed your mind? The leader deadline is in a bit more than two days, what are you going to do about it? It's ok if you don't want to address all my questions in depth, but also be aware that I am not I'm not massively sold right now and draw your own conclusions about how much you care about changing my perception of you.

@Gamma

well give us the mech thoughts then?

[Aisa]

Ahh sorry ejj think I might steal this conversation from you.

[...]
No, I agree with you that N-Hec thinks that they're acting pro-town. As scum or town. I meant it more as, they're convinced that what they're doing either A.) should be townread or B.) helps the town

Now, I have to suspend my disbelief super hard to get how they think preventing a nightkill on themself (And nominating Peng as leader / 180ing with no followup ) and etc are the most pro-town things that can be done.

It is logical to me?
1. preventing a nightkill on yourself is pro-town if you're an above-average town player. Not Hectic clearly think they are an above-average town player.
2. Not Hectic supported Peng as leader on pages 1-3, IIRC. Given the amount of information available at the time, I think that made sense. They then decided to support someone else as more information became available. That also makes complete sense IMO. I believe they used the hurt tag on Penguin as a means of unvoting, not of expressing suspicion of Penguin, if that's what you're referring to.
3. If by "180ing" you mean the change of heart on ejj, there has been a sort-of follow up:

[...]
I'm not explaining ejj at this time - I realize I flipped my read there and I want to see how the gamestate adjusts to that shift.

[Aisa]

HEAL: ejjinami <- was already healing
HEAL: Cat Scratch Fever <- new

I feel like I should do something. I think this is a good time to start thinking more concretely and practically about who to elect.

I still endorse ejjinami as leader. It's a relatively confident tr at this point, and I don't really see myself re-evaluating before deadline unless something drastic happens. This is really a good time to say something if anyone has reservations on ejjinami.

The second heal is tentative. I think CSF's posting has shown engagement with the game and a solvey attitude. Her latest posts in particular seem pro-town in the way they advance the gamestate. I think I've also seen others mention they townlean her, so I think there is a chance of getting a consensus election on her. Anyone wanna join me here?

I could consider Fidget if people think that's a better option. I could be persuaded on Andante or NotHectic, but I think both carry some real risk, so I think I would need some actual persuasion or something notable to happen.

The game state is worrying me a bit.
[...]

I feel the same way, which is why I'm a bit worried about Andante and NotHectic. If we're worried about scum looking for towncred I think those are two good places to look.

[Aisa]

You just hammered ejj and I'm not sure you noticed. My preference would have been to wait though it's probably arguable the gamestate was heading in this direction for at least 24 hours and no one has done much to stop this. Not sure I blame you. The whole affair actually screams town to me rn.

I don't have time to write a more detailed reply than this at the moment.

[Aisa]

How did CSF get that high?

Lodging a formal objection to this one, I think there's a solid chance she's scum here

Ok sure but
It would, like, help if you explained why you think she is scum here

I will be around in like 90 minutes to seriously play this game

[Aisa]

Lulz, apparently I can't count this game so I will not even attempt to try to tell if that is hammer. Also Andante, fair enough, but remember playstyle is a thing

Enchant is replacing Roden:
viewtopic.php?p=13414251#p13414251

[Aisa]

ohhhh okay then that simplifies things a bit, since we don't have to decide who goes into which group

so we basically pick our top 5 townreads I think

I don’t think that’s the mechanically correct thing to do
It “feels” like it’s the right thing but frankly, that may be a huge landmine
I’d at least seriously consider choosing people who’d give the most benefits from getting them in a PoE

I’d also consider what the benefits of having the same players on both teams are

. Like- the team that remains in the present will surely have to do something as well

Lmao, I feel like if I chose the players I genuinely town-read, no fucking way I'm going to the future
people would be so mad
(and I'm actually not confident enough to do that... only for a few players :/)
tho lmao, happens.
that might be a better thing anyway

Not sure you're interpreting the rules correctly here. This said, not sure I'm interpreting the rules correctly here.

The way I see it:
1. Both you and CSF nominate crews of 6 each. Players can overlap between your selections.
2. We vote on which crew we want to "send to the past".
3. Though the game may or may not get split in some way, the non-selected crew has no special significance.

Example:
Ejjinami selects ejjinami, Bob, and Blah.
CSF selects CSF, Alice, and Blah.
We vote to send CSF's team to the past.
This

does not imply

that Ejji's team stays in the present and anyone not in either team gets yeeted out of the game. The game may or may not get split in some way, but I don't expect Ejji's selection to have any bearing at that point.

Again:
- I could be wrong
- It's not even clear your interpretation is different from mine
- Just thought I'd bring it up

[Aisa]

Ehm
So sorry
I kept clicking the submit button and it did not feel likeanything was being submitted, I will not do that again in the future and I will ask Pooky if anything can be done about this
So sorry x2


mod note: deleted multiples -Pooky

[Aisa]

I have come to the conclusion that going to the past is probably where you want all of the town you can to go, because otherwise the game doesn't really make sense. Scum need an incentive to do something, and there has to be meaning to picking who goes and who doesn't. If it's a valid playstyle for scum to stay behind that's a bit strange considering it said we want town as leaders.

I don't think you should try to play PoE games with the pools because I am wary of what happens to the people who stay (and maybe the ones who go). But, it's your choice. We have 7 days to pick between the two teams, apparently.

Again, having difficulty decoding what people think the setup is, but I basically echo this. I think you want to have generally "towny" people in the team that eventually gets selected because:
- if they are all town, then autowin
- if they are not all town, then you get a strong signal that you should re-evaluate current reads.

If instead you have scummier people on the team, then:
- the probability of an autowin diminishes
- you also get less information if you don't autowin since you were already suspicious of some of the crew anyway.

The fact the leaders each pick one crew we then vote one is weird and I'm not really sure what to make of it.

[Aisa]

[...]

If that happens, wonderful but if it doesn’t the two of you will be forced to take another look and re-examine everything.

Just got a massive townping from this =P

[Aisa]

What does your ideal crew look like, Aisa?

Right this second, I would probably do

ejjinami
myself
fidget
Loki?
Gamma??
Andante???

I also tr you (personally pretty pleased with the outcome of the leader election!), so would definitely swap you into the list if I didn't have to limit it to one leader. This is essentially a list of my top 6 townreads.

But idk, think I prefer to lock a few people as fairly strong townreads then keep everyone else neutral until I've had time to think about them, so this is a pretty uncomfortable question

[Aisa]

Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable

I think it's good to get people's preferred groups out now in case the group picked fails, we can see who was pushing who

Is chill, agree that seems like a good reason to get people's preferred groups out

P-edit: lol

[Aisa]

I'm here and happy to talk. Want to talk about something ejji? CSF?

I'm aware you asked me some questions about my reads a couple days ago that I never answered, ejji. Sorry. It doesn't seem helpful to make a massive wall to answer them right now but happy to talk about anything you want.

[Aisa]

I think Rat is more likely to be scum than Fidget or Loki at this point in time. I think I agree with whoever has said (ejji?) that Loki's AtEing this game at points looks like it could be fabricated, but equally there have been other posts where I feel like he is basically saying what is on his mind without fabrication. Interacting with / seeing someone post in real time and that feeling genuine, basically.

I haven't really thought about Fidget in a couple days.

With Rat, I agree the scumcase on CSF feels a bit stilted, and there isn't really anything in their ISO that makes me go "woah this is 100%" town. Personally would steer clear of having them on my team at this point in time.

[Aisa]

@ejji
Think you may be better off trying to judge whether you believe some of the players who have played with Gamma before. I don't have a good sense of what they're capable of.

I keep reading the game and assuming that Gamma is town, like I forget the possibility that they could even be scum, which seems promising. However they could just be good at townspewing. IIRC I think they also played somewhat passively towards the start of the game, I didn't feel like they were pushing anything which also seems promising.

So like, town lean gun to the head, but not something I would act on before going and metaing them a bit.
Maybe I'll go do that and come back in 5 minutes

@other people
Hey guys, while I get frustration at being scumread, I feel like it would be appreciated if you could hold off on those thoughts literally just for the next 40 minutes

[Aisa]

After my quick and dirty investigation of Gamma's meta my confidence in them being town has increased slightly. I emphasise

slightly

. They seem more inquisitive in this game than they seemed in the scum games they read. Feel like they are actually trying to solve here.

[Aisa]

After my quick and dirty investigation of Gamma's meta my confidence in them being town has increased slightly. I emphasise

slightly

. They seem more inquisitive in this game than they seemed in the scum games they read. Feel like they are actually trying to solve here.

*the scum games I read

[Aisa]

Ayy nice to know someone agrees )

It's not the end of the world if you get it wrong ejji.

[Aisa]

Could you explain why Gamma Loki NAHA aren't all town, Andante?
Feel free to yell at me if you've explained it before.

What do people think of the latest few Andante posts?

Preliminary thoughts:

Csf has a fairly polarized game and IMO she has shown her town game here- and there are takes i dont believe she makes as scum, i.e. they feel too bold for her - in that i dont think we mindmeld the way we have this game if she is mafia.
Sure you can call me scum and say that shes just scum with me but if you can see one of us as town the other should come naturally.

Essentially this resonates. As far as I remember CSF seemed a bit less committal in the scum game of hers I read, so I still believe she is town. I should double check this tomorrow. And then well, actually doing the harder work of trying to sort RR, Fidget, and Andante

[Aisa]

It’s honestly probably smarter to copy some from the other team rather than do a full divide

yeah but 3/5 when you knew the other team kinda eliminates the point of having separate teams - though I think I see what ejji was going for since the two that are different I believe are scum reads from the majority of team 2.

You're assuming there is a point to having two separate teams

[Aisa]

i mean - there is simply by game design...

What I mean is that maybe optimal play / EV is to have the two teams both be as similar as possible (and of course, containing widely townread players)??

Though of course I agree that game design dictates that we have two teams, and maybe it will turn out that having teams that have few overlapping players helps somehow.

Anyway, I will stop engaging in retrospective mech speculation now.

[Aisa]

Nooo Fidget

I've waited 24 hours to say this so it hits a little less hard now, but to any pals from my PT who are reading and Gamma, that CSF flip was an emotional rollercoaster hahaha.

p-edit: lol Enchant wait till you see our PT

Our order of lims and deaths was
Day 1 -> NAHA
Night 1 -> Loki/Freedom
Day 2 -> CSF
Night 2 -> Fidget

[Aisa]

Who knewww the stakes were so high in our PT, we were just chilling day 2 and apathy-sleepwalked into elimming CSF and it turned out she was a terminator. It is also extremely funny to read back and see all the Kool-Aid those two terminators fed me that I drank completely unsuspectingly

...Now that I've got the moaning out of the way I won't actually be able to give the people any substance for a few hours, see you later. Please can somebody just solve the game for me? Thanks xx

[Aisa]

Oh yeah RR, I remember thinking yesterday that your reads were actually pretty good!

Also I actually unironically wouldn't mind the players from the other PT (what was it even called? The past?) telling me who they think the last terminator is. Though feel free to tell me that is bunk and I need to actually put in effort at some point.

Ok I will seriously force myself to go and not return for a few hours now.

[Aisa]

I can confirm every factual claim that Gamma has made.

RR, if you want the exact end of day 1 votecount, it was:
NAHA: Loki, Gamma, CSF, Fidget, Aisa
CSF: NAHA

I'm somewhat surprised no one has brought up this angle yet. Or maybe this is what Gamma means, idk, but I think it's a slightly different angle:
If there were 3 scum in my PT, they literally could have controlled the day 1 elimination and gone on to eliminate or kill all 3 townies in the PT (plus one in the other PT), thus automatically getting the game to 4:3 eLo.

The fact this didn't happen is somewhat short of a perfect clear, but IMO fairly close.

Also, FWIW, I think Gamma kinda towntold in the PT anyway.

This is obviously easy for me to say, but I am pretty keen for the 3-scum-in-one-PT theory to die down pretty soon.

[Aisa]

[...]

Nooo Fidget

I've waited 24 hours to say this so it hits a little less hard now, but to any pals from my PT who are reading and Gamma, that CSF flip was an emotional rollercoaster hahaha.

wdym?
Who’s the most cleared from that

The most cleared from the flip are me and Gamma, obv

I wasn't suggesting any specific impact on reads. It was just surprising because all four of us - me, Gamma, Fidget, CSF - said we thought we were all town on day 2. It was surprising that CSF was maf, that's all.

based on the fidget kill btw I have a decent idea of who the last scum might be

Well I look forward to you sharing that idea with the rest of us mortals then <3

So let's give remainings of Team 2 conftown status and sheep them.

Conftown status sure, sheeping me is a bad idea, your job is to stop me from doing stupid things, not amplify whatever I say.

[Aisa]

Hmm, off the cuff... I don't see a strong reason to revisit my ejjinami townread.

I have a theory NAHA may have gone for the "lulz let scream a bunch of townies are town early day 1" strat, which is +town for Andante/JohnnyFarrar. This is the tiniest of tiny observations, not something to update massively on.

[...]
ejj>andante>CSF>PP(i still townlean the slot)>Aisa>Fidget>Loki>FB>Gamma>Radical Rat>Shoshin(default reading this bottom of the pack)
[...]

I can't remember if someone's brought this up at some point, sorry if it was. The Roden-Enchant slot is missing here. I wonder what that means...

[...]
Now then. Andante's ragequit probably spews that slot Town, as well as townreading her beforehand.
[...]

How obvious do you think it was that Andante ragequit? I'm not asking to help sort Andante/Johnny, I'm actually trying to understand your thought process here. Like, was the most heated moment right before the end of the day? It also sounds like she got the elim she wanted?

frankly, i feel like i could use a reread of d1 :/

Same

[Aisa]

P-edit: thanks RR, always appreciate getting a reply. I feel a little bad about hitting you with this wallpost now.

A few more lines of rambling, and then I think I'll call it a day.

- My gut just went

RR town Enchant scum

after the most recent posts.
- On the other hand, ISO RR and you'll see that his adamancy that CSF and NAHA are scum is almost uncanny at times. You start to wonder if this is because they know exactly who the scumteam are.
- There are also a couple posts that just become very cute if the scumteam is CSF-NAHA-RR. Like this one:

How did CSF get that high?

Lodging a formal objection to this one, I think there's a solid chance she's scum here

Btw this is scum who is panicking that a 2 town leadership is about to be established^

And this is scum panicking because they're meeting resistance electing their partner ;3c

I mean just look at that cuteness you guys are sooo wholesome if you're scum together, I want it to be true for the memes if nothing else.

And this one I sort of have a small personal stake in:

To briefly summarize on CSF, there was a Lot of mech spec fluff, which to me felt like it was intended to distract from the process of sorting out Town to elect as Leaders. Like, I get being sucked into mech rabbit holes, I do it all the time as both alignments, but in this case, all the fussing over what a leader may or may not do... It just wasn't relevant to the actual decision. And she wasn't alone in doing so, but it just... Struck me with her in a way that didn't with the others.

CSF pushed me a little in the PT for posting a lot of mech, kind of makes you wonder whether there were conversations in the scum PT about mech posting which stuck in her mind.

In fact now that I think about it there was a conversation that went like this in our PT:
Gamma:

I think RR may be town because NAHA went after them really hard

CSF:

Hmm there weren't really any consequences to pushing anyone at that time, so not sure that means anything... but admittedly NAHA did push them pretty hard.

What if CSF didn't want to outright say "yes RR defo town here" because that would have been suspicious, so decided to hedge a bit, but inadvertently just explained the scumteam's strategy? WIFOM though.

Meh. I shall decide what to do with this thought dump tomorrow.

[Aisa]

In today's episode of Aisa-throws-out-random-thoughts:

If I need to die to state your collective paranoia so you can move on to Vivax, so be it, but like. Given what seems to have occurred in the past PT, and in the main thread prior to the split, our hypothetical scumteam's strategy would have apparently been to just all bus each other, which.... Isn't really an ideal tactic if you ask me, and certainly hasn't worked out for "us" so far.

Hmm, NAHA also went after the Vivax slot a lot though.

I wonder if Vivax's entrance and attitude may be mildly scum indicative? It's a long slog ahead for the lone scum if they want to win. Might as well come in and have some fun, push Gamma a little, etc.

Nah, the PT wasn't accessible at any point Vivax. (Or it was but no-one except ejjinami ever noticed.) Are you an alt by the way?

At some point I will attempt to consolidate all my thoughts into an actual opinion on who could be scum, but that time is not now

Spoiler: Fluff

Aisa comes in and [...]. She also [...]. She ALSO also [...].

I died.

[Aisa]

[...]

Nah, the PT wasn't accessible at any point Vivax. (Or it was but no-one except ejjinami ever noticed.) Are you an alt by the way?

[...]

No I'm not an alt, I go by Vivax wherever I play (✟TL mafia✟, MU).

Regarding the bolded: How do you presume that it wasn't accessible or that only ejjnami noticed it? Seems like a generous assumption to make.

Ah yes, MU, that makes sense. (I was just asking because you came across as pretty confident and I was trying to understand where that came from.)

To answer your question:
- I think we may both have accidentally conflated two issues. Issue #1 is: was there a link to the scum PT in the original post? Issue #2 is: if there was a link, was the PT accessible to any townies?
- It is possible that issue #1 occurred, and I'll give you that it's possible that people other than ejjinami noticed. Maybe they just didn't say anything because if issue #2 didn't occur, issue #1 is not a big deal?
- If your point is that ejjinami noticing and pointing out #1 is slightly scum-indicative, sure, I'll give you that. Maybe mafia are more attentive to such things or something.
- I am not an authority on the forum software, but I believe that for issue #2 to occur the moderator needs to specifically grant access to a townie in error. It's very likely that did not occur. If that did occur, no townie noticed it. If a townie noticed issue #2, I have no idea why they didn't say anything.

So I guess my point is: it's possible the OP contained a link to the scum chat and ejjinami noticing that may be somewhat scum-indicative, but like, it does not outright spew ejjinami scum as you seemed to believe.

By the way,

@ejjinami

, I'd like you to explain exactly what you meant when you made that post (I have a theory I'd like to check).

[...]
I don't disagree that both scum pushing me should be treated as NAI for my slot, which is the reason I didn't like Emerald pushing the notion.
Currently though I'm warming up to the idea that Johnny could be mafia cause I'm getting the vibes that he's just lurking and trying to sentiment snipe the best wagon for his survival. Calling my posts a flail was a reach, I much prefer Aisas take on that one. I do try to have fun.
I'd also like to add that ejjnami was a lot more active in the PT.

But apparently Enchant floats the notion that there's 2 confirmed town and so far I've liked the slot for town too much to dismiss that. I don't know who he means exactly but judging by the posts I'd guess it's RR and Aisa. Those seem fairly town to me.

Wait, is that why you pushed Gamma a little? Have you read e.g. my post on why Gamma and I are probably town? Do you agree or disagree?

[Aisa]

Ejj is Town because they took a long time to realize the PT existed. If they were scum, they would have seen it when they went to post in the scum thread.

That can be fake-dumbtelled.
Also weird that they would notice scum chat in the OP but

not realize that there are PTs in the game

.

I was very confused about mechanics as well, I just don't think that's a good reason for a read.

Not quite sure what you mean by the bolded, but I think you may be misunderstanding how PTs work again?

Also am I right that all this talk by Vivax is... pretty much a towntell?

[Aisa]

+1 what Enchant said.

...now wondering whether I should set my avatar to Miltank

why is ejji town? I know some people have said he is but tbf I think he could be scum based on some of the false theory CSF was spouting, since it feels like they could have tried to instate scum for both leaders and have the third scum on both teams so each one would have two scum, letting CSF spout that false theory of 1 scum in the coalition to scum's potential benefit in either universe.

I had that thought too!

The reason I think ejjinami is probably town is - well - the dreaded

tone read

I should probably do better than to sit on the same read I had two weeks ago, I know I know. I will re-evaluate in the next couple days, I promise.

I think I still want RR. Reasoning incoming.

[Aisa]

Spoiler: Relevant context

[...]

Nah, the PT wasn't accessible at any point Vivax. (Or it was but no-one except ejjinami ever noticed.) Are you an alt by the way?

[...]

No I'm not an alt, I go by Vivax wherever I play (✟TL mafia✟, MU).

Regarding the bolded: How do you presume that it wasn't accessible or that only ejjnami noticed it? Seems like a generous assumption to make.

Ah yes, MU, that makes sense. (I was just asking because you came across as pretty confident and I was trying to understand where that came from.)

To answer your question:
- I think we may both have accidentally conflated two issues. Issue #1 is: was there a link to the scum PT in the original post? Issue #2 is: if there was a link, was the PT accessible to any townies?
- It is possible that issue #1 occurred, and I'll give you that it's possible that people other than ejjinami noticed. Maybe they just didn't say anything because if issue #2 didn't occur, issue #1 is not a big deal?
- If your point is that ejjinami noticing and pointing out #1 is slightly scum-indicative, sure, I'll give you that. Maybe mafia are more attentive to such things or something.
- I am not an authority on the forum software, but I believe that for issue #2 to occur the moderator needs to specifically grant access to a townie in error. It's very likely that did not occur. If that did occur, no townie noticed it. If a townie noticed issue #2, I have no idea why they didn't say anything.

So I guess my point is: it's possible the OP contained a link to the scum chat and ejjinami noticing that may be somewhat scum-indicative, but like, it does not outright spew ejjinami scum as you seemed to believe.

By the way,

@ejjinami

, I'd like you to explain exactly what you meant when you made that post (I have a theory I'd like to check).

[...]
I don't disagree that both scum pushing me should be treated as NAI for my slot, which is the reason I didn't like Emerald pushing the notion.
Currently though I'm warming up to the idea that Johnny could be mafia cause I'm getting the vibes that he's just lurking and trying to sentiment snipe the best wagon for his survival. Calling my posts a flail was a reach, I much prefer Aisas take on that one. I do try to have fun.
I'd also like to add that ejjnami was a lot more active in the PT.

But apparently Enchant floats the notion that there's 2 confirmed town and so far I've liked the slot for town too much to dismiss that. I don't know who he means exactly but judging by the posts I'd guess it's RR and Aisa. Those seem fairly town to me.

Wait, is that why you pushed Gamma a little? Have you read e.g. my post on why Gamma and I are probably town? Do you agree or disagree?

I'd say my confidence is just how I play this game. I'm not necessarily as talkative 'off-paper', and definitely not as pompous.
My town play can be very disruptive at times. I just love chaotic, emotional games and can be quite reckless at provoking that in a game.

Regarding §1 I'd say it's not a slam dunk reason if ejjnami wasn't able to access it. I'd also like to add that I got powerscum vibes off them in the PT and mentioned it there, but that was more feels based.
As for §2 (Gamma), I'll have to think it through because I don't know if 3 scum in a PT killing off everyone else wouldn't be too obvious to spot for the people from the other PT before mafia could secure a victory. Since I'm a sub/replacement I don't really have a good grasp on the alternating phases for now to be able to reconstruct that off the bat.
What would the town tell be, please do tell?

As for the avatar, it just stopped working. Got it from N_M so who knows.

Glad we're on the same page about PT access. Powerscum vibes is fair.

Alternating phases...?

The town tell would be that you didn't seem to understand how scum PTs work, which may suggest you've never been on one on this website. Although I was thinking that you obviously understand that fake-dumbtells exist, which is concerning for my theory.

[Aisa]

Here is my half-case half-discussion on RR. At first I thought it was just going to be a case, but as always you stare at the same message for long enough and you start questioning everything and picking up nuances you didn't pick up on earlier.

Spoiler: Wall about RR

If I need to die to state your collective paranoia so you can move on to Vivax, so be it, but like. Given what seems to have occurred in the past PT, and in the main thread prior to the split, our hypothetical scumteam's strategy would have apparently been to just all bus each other, which.... Isn't really an ideal tactic if you ask me, and certainly hasn't worked out for "us" so far.

We do have breathing room thanks to everyone kicking ass in the past though, so do what you must. Though I'm pretty sure game ends with a Vivax lim here

Well, I townread everyone else alive. Can't speak for everyone, but it's the only option left, and I think they started the day off scummy as well so.

It feels like you're expressing some level of apathy which I think may be premature and slightly scum-indicative at this point? I guess off the top of my head I, Enchant, and Ejjinami have expressed some degree of suspicion, but you're far from gone. If you think the game ends with a Vivax lim then you could just push Vivax harder. This reads a little like a token effort to appear solvy all the while not doing anything about it.

Also I think both NAHA and CSF mentioned feeling overcommitted at some point and I think that probably contributed their eventual eliminations. I'm not really operating under the assumption they brought their A-game to the table.

I kinda wanted to pick at the "I townread everyone else alive" but I guess I went through the very same feeling and did not do much about it in the PT, so I'll leave that point to rest.

I think I may just have some instinctive aversion to "we have breathing room"-type comments like NO. COMPLACENCY IS EXACTLY WHAT LOSES YOU THE GAME IN THESE SITUATIONS. WE NEED TO BE

CAREFUL

Hmm, NAHA also went after the Vivax slot a lot though.

I think this is a little bit different because of shoshin being the original occupant of the slot. They literally didn't post at all, which apparently is scum indicative of them according to a couple other people, and though I still find that to be a bit flimsy justification, from the perspective of their team they'd be dead weight. Their presence in the game means it takes more votes to eliminate, but they never push or vote or anything themselves. So at that point, bussing is the best option, might as well squeeze some towncred out of the situation.

TL;DR

If I'm Koba and I know that shoshin is scum, and that they aren't playing the game, I attempt to bus there regardless.

I don't find this explanation that compelling. The bussing you describe is not the kind of thing I'd find inherently towny, I don't think.

At that point they'd already committed.

It would have looked really silly for them to go from "I am 100% confident on shoshin scum, I am the best at scumhunting and I am always right about lurkers" to "I guess you can have another chance"

When one of them flips red, that interaction would have been jumped on immediately if they'd tried it

I think a summary of the conversation as I understand it may be useful:
RR: I'm not scum because it doesn't make sense for the scum team to bus me
Me: But you scum read Vivax, and if Vivax is scum then scum was bussing that slot
RR: It would have made sense for scum to bus that slot, my scum read on Vivax is not undermined by your point
Gamma: If scum was bussing that slot they would later have tried to "give the slot another chance"
RR: No, they'd already committed
Gamma: scum can get away with a lot [commentary: I agree]

I think you may have pushed your point a bit too far and may have started to grasp at straws. I think it would have been a better look if at some point you'd said something like "I see that this theory is a bit far-fetched but I still have a feeling it would be valid".

I find it particularly striking that in 1157 you worded things as if it was a given that Vivax if maf. I'm still trying to decide if that's towny or scummy?

RR, do you see what I mean?

Aah. Need to think harder about the rodent or maybe need to sleep and let my subconscious work on it.

Vivax, I'll explain the town-tell tomorrow. To do some expectation management, it will be a slightly fancier version of "Gamma came across as very genuine when they got into the discussion with Loki."

[Aisa]

On reread, Andante-JohnnyFarrar obvtown, ejjinami has some interesting interactions with the known members of the scumteam. Disclaimer: I am on page 3

[Aisa]

Why is Vivax scum Johnny?

[Aisa]

Thanks. Is there anything in particular that seems scummy about Vivax?

[Aisa]

[...]

Not my town tell, the town tell for GE in the post you linked to me where you dismissed the 3-scum-in-1-PT theory.

Ok, here we are. Behold me trying to summarise a PT you cannot read and why the things Gamma said felt towny to me.

- When Gamma was arguing with Loki a lot of the posts were fired very quickly. Rereading them, it doesn't feel like Gamma needed to pause at all in order to check their tone or fake anything.
- One of the points of contention between Gamma and Loki in the PT was that Loki asked Gamma a question about their read on Fidget and NAHA. Gamma repeatedly refused to answer this because they felt Loki was asking this question in bad faith. Gamma also specifically pointed out that they answered similar questions posed by someone else, because it felt like that person. That just seems like an odd point to want to make as scum.
- They also seemed really grateful when CSF and Fidget came in during the argument and tread them both for it. Again that seems like a strange move if they're scum.

Sparknotes version: Gamma seemed really genuine when they got into the argument with Loki. There were multiple contextual cues that, to me, suggested they weren't just pushing Loki to put on a show but genuinely believed in what they were saying.

Hope that helps. Like, if Gamma survives all the way to 2:1 elo obviously whoever is alive then should be careful around the slot, but I don't really consider it worth my time and energy to even worry about Gamma being scum today.

(...Can't wait for Gamma to flip scum now so I undergo the maximum possible amount of humiliation in a single game :') )

[Aisa]

Johnny is the substitute for Andante. It's the same slot.

[Aisa]

Cuz I think he's town

lmao kill it

What's wrong with that?

[Aisa]

Mmh, I guess I can see why the interaction looks a bit sus, maybe I need to think about it more. However, I get the impression the defending, then attacking someone in the span of five minutes is typical.

You made a great point though, it's made me realise I should look at 1. whether NAHA and CSF were happy with how ejjinami got leader, and 2. how ejjinami went about selecting their crew.

[Aisa]

I don't think I'm being apathetic. I do care what happens, and I do want Vivax dead. But we're not in immediate danger, and we can afford a miss as long as it brings us closer to actually winning. If that miss is me, then that means you know I'm being honest at the very least, and sets the stage for Vivax tomorrow.

And sure, Ejj COULD have faked not seeing the PT, as anyone can fake anything. But to me, it seemed real. It didn't look intended to come across as Town, just as a genuine excuse for not having posted.

Of course, I suppose it's also possible that they'd just bookmarked the scum thread and never passed through the PT list, but... That can be worried about if Vivax doesn't end the game

True - if you flip town, then I do know you're being honest at the very least. I still don't think "setting the stage for Vivax tomorrow" is as good of a deal as you seem to suggest it is. I'm not exactly diving through any of the ISOs of the dead town players right now to necro-sheep them. (That sounds like it could be useful actually, but effort!)

Maybe help me see why Vivax might be scum? So far, I've got:
- you think their entrance today was scummy
- you townread everyone else
- maybe something about NAHA bussing there, I'm not sure if you were talking about that just as a hypothetical
Is there anything I'm missing?

By the way - I'm not really sure how to resolve this tension at the moment. I don't want to make you feel pressured to contribute more through comments like you being "apathetic" if you don't want to put more time into this game for whatever reason. But I also kind of want to reserve the ability to scum-read you if I feel like your posting patterns may be scum indicative. Again, I think I'm still trying to find the balance around that. I guess that if you ever feel unfairly pressured, feel free to let me know.
----

@ejji

- when you're next around, could give me a quick run-down of what made you decide to put NAHA on your crew? Reminder I would also appreciate it if you could re-explain what you meant when you made that comment about the PT earlier in game.
----
I think my reads have finally progressed to a point where they feel a little more concrete! I think I'm looking to vote

ejjinami

or

RR

at the moment. Anyone want to talk about those two?

[Aisa]

Maybe help me see why Vivax might be scum? So far, I've got:
- you think their entrance today was scummy
- you townread everyone else
- maybe something about NAHA bussing there, I'm not sure if you were talking about that just as a hypothetical
Is there anything I'm missing?

There is one other thing.
Early on, I defended shoshin from Not Hectic's seemingly random push on them for flaking. I said that flaking is NAI unless they have a history of doing that specifically as scum. I don't remember who, I think it was either you or Fidget, said that they do have a history of doing that. I have not independently confirmed this, because I don't know how to search for games a person was in but never posted, BUT... it would make sense to bus a partner who committed a meta scumtell, especially when that tell is refusal to play the game.

This is what makes it distinct from Not Hectic and I "bussing" each other.

Hmm, ok. I'm not massively sold, but it's possible.

I went back and it was Loki who pointed it out.

[Aisa]

I think I'll put a vote down. Afraid our resident rat's theories just feel much too radical.
VOTE: Radical Rat

I feel a sudden rush of bloodthirst... Give! Me! The! Rat!

[Aisa]

Oh no
I have avoided the terminator clips all game only for you to hit me with... that
What have I created?

[Aisa]

Probably will say something dumb, but which i have on heart.

I literally don't care who to kill, if we can't hit mafia in 4 ppl with 3 bullets, we probably deserve to lose.

Strictly speaking I don't really share that mindset, but you're a townlean, so *shrug*

[Aisa]

That's right Mathblade

I’m mega out of it rn

=(

One of NAHAs halves each was sent to a timeline. I don’t see a problem here.

What is one half of NAHA, pray tell? xx

If I make another fluffy post in the next couple hours lim me. I'm serious. I'm rereading the game now so big effort coming soon

[Aisa]

Scum would have known that either team would have caused the "coalition" to fail.

So either option would have been fruitless for town, good for scum though.

[Aisa]

Yeah imo first 20ish pages are the juiciest
Don't know what went on in your PT though.

[Aisa]

Post 1202 by RR reads like a self-invalidating one.

‘I defended someone from NAHA but it could be bussing’ expressed in a lot more words.

I don't really mind some good old hedging and self invalidating, I do plenty of that too. I think the issue for me is that RR's posts are not really leading to anything in any sort of visible way though. The hedging seems almost artificially limited to this one read on your slot because I've been asking about it. I think town!RR would be more likely to take a stand on, well, literally anything else?
...if someone knows RR and thinks I'm wrong this is like, a really good time to say something.

Anyway, will you help me in my quest for blood? Will you join me in voting for Rodent? Which one is better, bunnies or rats?

[Aisa]

Ok, I read to about page 12 then decided to stop in order to push this post out then go to bed.

I'm efforting because I feel like the game could use a little more content right now. Also, it turns out, I now have things to say that no else is saying. Shocking.

So... here is a summary of my thoughs at the moment. Hope you all like reading walls.

Spoiler: Andante/JohnnyFarrar

My approach to reading this slot is to try to read Andante. She has a lot more content the JohnnyFarrar and I just feel better about my ability to read her.

Re-reading her posts I get the impression she is coming into the thread and saying everything that comes into her mind. I do not get the impression there is another PT somewhere where she is plotting what to say. I do not get the impression she is even trying to fake spontaneity. There are many posts I could bring up here, I guess I'll just quote part of a post I think is illustrative and let the reader judge for themselves:

Why are we voting heals based only off a few posts? I like the reasoning behind the heals but the game just literally started.

We only have four days to make two votes. Things need to get moving quickly if we don't want it to default to plurality (and we do not want that)

Sure, I understand that, but it's like, page 1 almost everyone who posted there was healing... we had NotAHecticAlt healing Penguin "cause mod" like... at least wait a bit lol like, once everyone is around, it's not usually that hard to find a few TRs, I know we don't wanna wait till the last minute, but we have 3 days, it's perfectly ok to not heal anyone in the first 24 hours lol

In any case I don't see why heals can't be functionally the same as votes for now

well, if someone hits 6 heals, they're leader... so like.. yeah

Hmm, but you know what, those who say they don't want power out of the gate might not be doing so because they don't want power...... paranoia...

hahaha woah what?? what an idea XD yeah see, cause it's mountainous, it's gonna have to be something that'll be reads related for our leaders, me and reads... my reads are eith decent or super off, so I read the leader thing and went "I really shouldn't be leader..." cause I know I'm gonna be a universal TR pretty quickly here, like, I almost always am one... as I'm catching up, I'm realizing I know no one here, or like, how yall play, I might know of some of yall sure, but I really don't know how anyone here plays, so I guess that's a good thing for my reads? which would mean, leader!me wouldn't be as bad as I initially thought, but ehhh I'm not campaigning for it lol I will push my TRs though!! They can make decisions!
[...]

Spoiler: Roden/Enchant

I'm just trying to read Enchant here. I have them as a townlean. I think they've made a few posts they probably don't make as scum here. Samples include:

So anyway.

CSF flipping maf HIGHLY suggests that last scum outside of team 2, because... Bruh really, why mafia would put all teammates with self, it's critically dumb.
So let's give remainings of Team 2 conftown status and sheep them.

Thanks, now i can go gaming normal games.

[...]
Well while game loading, i add.

3 ppls are conftowns.
I am conftown as well.

We can just bloodshred remainings for fast GG. That would include you of course, but you die for good cause lmao.

I thought these Enchant scum games Gamma linked in our PT were helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89536
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89510

tl;dr I'm probably just subconsciously sheeping Gamma here

Spoiler: Shoshin/Toogeloo/Vivax

I have a townlean here. I do think this is one where I could be wrong.
The townlean is based on two things:
- The interactions we've had lately feel entirely right. This point is 100% a gut feeling, 0% logic.
- Vivax maybe townslipping by not understanding how PTs work? See below.

Currently, thinking about Roden and cat scratch

as well (irony)

(that’s a pretty common opinion)
(wouldn’t rush it)
I wouldn’t mind nominating myself either just because the leader role sounds goddamn cool XD
but like, if I were to be honest- my read accuracy on MS was never much above rand :/
so yeah…
I recognize that I’m just acting illogical

I don't actually consider myself trustable

Oh okay then.

VOTE: ejjinami

That's it?That's the joke?Mafia got outed by the OP and ejjnami is playing along like this? Bruh

The link to the Mafia PT being in the OP has no bearing on the alignment of people who notice it, I don't understand your argument here

It wasn't accessible?
[...]

Spoiler: ejjinami/Mathblade

Not sure how to feel about this one. I do think some of the interactions with the scum team are concerning - NAHA's scum to voting ejjinami's slot for leader, for example. However, after some rereading I still lean town. The interaction with Andante that begins around here seems towny (thanks Loki for the confidence boost on that one!)

Spoiler: Radical Rat

My current bet for scum. I think these should explain most of my reasoning:
1. this post: viewtopic.php?p=13435466#p13435466

2. the post below

Post 1202 by RR reads like a self-invalidating one.

‘I defended someone from NAHA but it could be bussing’ expressed in a lot more words.

I don't really mind some good old hedging and self invalidating, I do plenty of that too. I think the issue for me is that RR's posts are not really leading to anything in any sort of visible way though. The hedging seems almost artificially limited to this one read on your slot because I've been asking about it. I think town!RR would be more likely to take a stand on, well, literally anything else?
...if someone knows RR and thinks I'm wrong this is like, a really good time to say something.

Anyway, will you help me in my quest for blood? Will you join me in voting for Rodent? Which one is better, bunnies or rats?

Spoiler: Gamma

Is Gamma. I still stand by this:

[...]
Ok, here we are. Behold me trying to summarise a PT you cannot read and why the things Gamma said felt towny to me.

- When Gamma was arguing with Loki a lot of the posts were fired very quickly. Rereading them, it doesn't feel like Gamma needed to pause at all in order to check their tone or fake anything.
- One of the points of contention between Gamma and Loki in the PT was that Loki asked Gamma a question about their read on Fidget and NAHA. Gamma repeatedly refused to answer this because they felt Loki was asking this question in bad faith. Gamma also specifically pointed out that they answered similar questions posed by someone else, because it felt like that person. That just seems like an odd point to want to make as scum.
- They also seemed really grateful when CSF and Fidget came in during the argument and tread them both for it. Again that seems like a strange move if they're scum.

Sparknotes version: Gamma seemed really genuine when they got into the argument with Loki. There were multiple contextual cues that, to me, suggested they weren't just pushing Loki to put on a show but genuinely believed in what they were saying.

Hope that helps. Like, if Gamma survives all the way to 2:1 elo obviously whoever is alive then should be careful around the slot, but I don't really consider it worth my time and energy to even worry about Gamma being scum today.

(...Can't wait for Gamma to flip scum now so I undergo the maximum possible amount of humiliation in a single game :') )

[...]

I'm somewhat surprised no one has brought up this angle yet. Or maybe this is what Gamma means, idk, but I think it's a slightly different angle:
If there were 3 scum in my PT, they literally could have controlled the day 1 elimination and gone on to eliminate or kill all 3 townies in the PT (plus one in the other PT), thus automatically getting the game to 4:3 eLo.

The fact this didn't happen is somewhat short of a perfect clear, but IMO fairly close.

Also, FWIW, I think Gamma kinda towntold in the PT anyway.

This is obviously easy for me to say, but I am pretty keen for the 3-scum-in-one-PT theory to die down pretty soon.

[Aisa]

Ok, I read to about page 12 then decided to stop in order to push this post out then go to bed.

I'm efforting because I feel like the game could use a little more content right now. Also, it turns out, I now have things to say that no else is saying. Shocking.

So... here is a summary of my thoughs at the moment. Hope you all like reading walls.

Spoiler: Andante/JohnnyFarrar

My approach to reading this slot is to try to read Andante. She has a lot more content the JohnnyFarrar and I just feel better about my ability to read her.

Re-reading her posts I get the impression she is coming into the thread and saying everything that comes into her mind. I do not get the impression there is another PT somewhere where she is plotting what to say. I do not get the impression she is even trying to fake spontaneity. There are many posts I could bring up here, I guess I'll just quote part of a post I think is illustrative and let the reader judge for themselves:

Why are we voting heals based only off a few posts? I like the reasoning behind the heals but the game just literally started.

We only have four days to make two votes. Things need to get moving quickly if we don't want it to default to plurality (and we do not want that)

Sure, I understand that, but it's like, page 1 almost everyone who posted there was healing... we had NotAHecticAlt healing Penguin "cause mod" like... at least wait a bit lol like, once everyone is around, it's not usually that hard to find a few TRs, I know we don't wanna wait till the last minute, but we have 3 days, it's perfectly ok to not heal anyone in the first 24 hours lol

In any case I don't see why heals can't be functionally the same as votes for now

well, if someone hits 6 heals, they're leader... so like.. yeah

Hmm, but you know what, those who say they don't want power out of the gate might not be doing so because they don't want power...... paranoia...

hahaha woah what?? what an idea XD yeah see, cause it's mountainous, it's gonna have to be something that'll be reads related for our leaders, me and reads... my reads are eith decent or super off, so I read the leader thing and went "I really shouldn't be leader..." cause I know I'm gonna be a universal TR pretty quickly here, like, I almost always am one... as I'm catching up, I'm realizing I know no one here, or like, how yall play, I might know of some of yall sure, but I really don't know how anyone here plays, so I guess that's a good thing for my reads? which would mean, leader!me wouldn't be as bad as I initially thought, but ehhh I'm not campaigning for it lol I will push my TRs though!! They can make decisions!
[...]

Spoiler: Roden/Enchant

I'm just trying to read Enchant here. I have them as a townlean. I think they've made a few posts they probably don't make as scum here. Samples include:

So anyway.

CSF flipping maf HIGHLY suggests that last scum outside of team 2, because... Bruh really, why mafia would put all teammates with self, it's critically dumb.
So let's give remainings of Team 2 conftown status and sheep them.

Thanks, now i can go gaming normal games.

[...]
Well while game loading, i add.

3 ppls are conftowns.
I am conftown as well.

We can just bloodshred remainings for fast GG. That would include you of course, but you die for good cause lmao.

I thought these Enchant scum games Gamma linked in our PT were helpful:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89536
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89510

tl;dr I'm probably just subconsciously sheeping Gamma here

Spoiler: Shoshin/Toogeloo/Vivax

I have a townlean here. I do think this is one where I could be wrong.
The townlean is based on two things:
- The interactions we've had lately feel entirely right. This point is 100% a gut feeling, 0% logic.
- Vivax maybe townslipping by not understanding how PTs work? See below.

Currently, thinking about Roden and cat scratch

as well (irony)

(that’s a pretty common opinion)
(wouldn’t rush it)
I wouldn’t mind nominating myself either just because the leader role sounds goddamn cool XD
but like, if I were to be honest- my read accuracy on MS was never much above rand :/
so yeah…
I recognize that I’m just acting illogical

I don't actually consider myself trustable

Oh okay then.

VOTE: ejjinami

That's it?That's the joke?Mafia got outed by the OP and ejjnami is playing along like this? Bruh

The link to the Mafia PT being in the OP has no bearing on the alignment of people who notice it, I don't understand your argument here

It wasn't accessible?
[...]

Spoiler: ejjinami/Mathblade

Not sure how to feel about this one. I do think some of the interactions with the scum team are concerning - NAHA's scum to voting ejjinami's slot for leader, for example. However, after some rereading I still lean town. The interaction with Andante that begins around here seems towny (thanks Loki for the confidence boost on that one!)

Spoiler: Radical Rat

My current bet for scum. I think these should explain most of my reasoning:
1. this post: viewtopic.php?p=13435466#p13435466

2. the post below

Post 1202 by RR reads like a self-invalidating one.

‘I defended someone from NAHA but it could be bussing’ expressed in a lot more words.

I don't really mind some good old hedging and self invalidating, I do plenty of that too. I think the issue for me is that RR's posts are not really leading to anything in any sort of visible way though. The hedging seems almost artificially limited to this one read on your slot because I've been asking about it. I think town!RR would be more likely to take a stand on, well, literally anything else?
...if someone knows RR and thinks I'm wrong this is like, a really good time to say something.

Anyway, will you help me in my quest for blood? Will you join me in voting for Rodent? Which one is better, bunnies or rats?

Spoiler: Gamma

Is Gamma. I still stand by this:

[...]
Ok, here we are. Behold me trying to summarise a PT you cannot read and why the things Gamma said felt towny to me.

- When Gamma was arguing with Loki a lot of the posts were fired very quickly. Rereading them, it doesn't feel like Gamma needed to pause at all in order to check their tone or fake anything.
- One of the points of contention between Gamma and Loki in the PT was that Loki asked Gamma a question about their read on Fidget and NAHA. Gamma repeatedly refused to answer this because they felt Loki was asking this question in bad faith. Gamma also specifically pointed out that they answered similar questions posed by someone else, because it felt like that person. That just seems like an odd point to want to make as scum.
- They also seemed really grateful when CSF and Fidget came in during the argument and tread them both for it. Again that seems like a strange move if they're scum.

Sparknotes version: Gamma seemed really genuine when they got into the argument with Loki. There were multiple contextual cues that, to me, suggested they weren't just pushing Loki to put on a show but genuinely believed in what they were saying.

Hope that helps. Like, if Gamma survives all the way to 2:1 elo obviously whoever is alive then should be careful around the slot, but I don't really consider it worth my time and energy to even worry about Gamma being scum today.

(...Can't wait for Gamma to flip scum now so I undergo the maximum possible amount of humiliation in a single game :') )

[...]

I'm somewhat surprised no one has brought up this angle yet. Or maybe this is what Gamma means, idk, but I think it's a slightly different angle:
If there were 3 scum in my PT, they literally could have controlled the day 1 elimination and gone on to eliminate or kill all 3 townies in the PT (plus one in the other PT), thus automatically getting the game to 4:3 eLo.

The fact this didn't happen is somewhat short of a perfect clear, but IMO fairly close.

Also, FWIW, I think Gamma kinda towntold in the PT anyway.

This is obviously easy for me to say, but I am pretty keen for the 3-scum-in-one-PT theory to die down pretty soon.

[Aisa]

Hmmm. Here is a RR towngame:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=87429
It's from a year ago, so treat with a grain salt, but I'd say the comparison to this game is not reassuring. They seem a lot more opinionated that game. Although, note to self, the fact things are low-stakes for town could obviously be contributing to RR saying they don't really have anything more to take a stand on right now.

I know I am entering a tunnel, but what if this is the

right

tunnel?

Does anyone else want RR
Does anyone not want RR
Help not sure what to say

[Aisa]

Actually I have been struck with inspiration as to what to say. Who did you think was voting you when you thought Vivax hammered, RR?

[Aisa]

Ta. In your own words,

(I think this is what the youth call a "flail")

[Aisa]

Hmmm. Here is a RR towngame:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=87429
It's from a year ago, so treat with a grain salt, but I'd say the comparison to this game is not reassuring. They seem a lot more opinionated that game. Although, note to self, the fact things are low-stakes for town could obviously be contributing to RR saying they don't really have anything more to take a stand on right now.

I know I am entering a tunnel, but what if this is the

right

tunnel?

Does anyone else want RR
Does anyone not want RR
Help not sure what to say

I still don't know what there even is to "take a stance" on. We have one scum left to find. I think it's Vivax. What do you want me to be opinionated about beyond that?

To rephrase slightly, I felt you were a bit passive. I'm not sure what could change my mind rn, sorry.

[Aisa]

We're getting closer to the deadline, so it seems good to start thinking more concretely about who to yeet.

I'd still recommend RR, but I could compromise on Math or Vivax.

[Aisa]

Well, you could vote RR if you wanted to. I should say that I'd prefer to give Math the chance to catch up properly and give an opinion before any hammers. I'm also curious what Gamma is thinking.

[Aisa]

^ I am absolutely panicking internally.
...Sometimes externally, too.

No lolhammers please xx

Actually I have been struck with inspiration as to what to say. Who did you think was voting you when you thought Vivax hammered, RR?

So, I don't actually remember who it was, but I had thought "Wait weren't there already two votes on me? That makes this four... Fuck did I get hammered?" Then I went back to check the VC, and I guess confirmation bias induced hallucinations made me see Vivax's wagon as mine, and then I counted without actually reading names, and then I counted again to make sure we did have seven alive like I thought, and then I got told I wasn't hammered, went back and... Felt very silly.

Yes, I'm aware this is ridiculous but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you're town, this is actually hilarious. I like this answer more than if you'd listed four random names haha. It may be my favourite thing you've said this game day in terms of convincing me you're actually town, mild +townpoints.
Anyway, I don't think engaging more with you is helping my read accuracy at the moment, I'll spend more time thinking about other slots in the time we have left.

[...]
I think one of the following has to be true
>> All scum in one PT
Or
>> Scum’s votes are weird at end of day one

Both of which seem logically improbable but one has to be true

So I am soliciting feedback after looking at some VCs

Thing here is, NotHectic was voting CSF and vice versa. Both of their second votes were on Ejjinami (you). Ejjinami did not vote for BOTH of them, which I think would actually be pretty damning at this point... But CSF got elected fine without him, and he WAS voting for NotHectic... And this does make sense within your own logic.
[...]

Yeah
- Three scum in one PT is highly unlikely
- If we're going off votecounts, Math's slot looks like the worst by far
- I guess Enchant hammered CSF
- Vivax, Johnny, and RR don't look especially suspicious

[Aisa]

I've noticed Andante has recently finished playing in elo in Mafia Invictus. Maybe she just repped out to have more time to dedicate to that.

[Aisa]

Sorry RR! I'll do my best to avenge you.

I suppose could be Vivax.

Hey Math, what do you think of Andante/JohnnyFarrar?

Also I will be

LA from this Friday to Monday 6 pm BST

.

[Aisa]

I remember that someone said "RIP AISA" promising nightkill.

Gamma died instead though.


@Aisa, why Gamma could die instead of you?

Just in a case that's not accusation, i still think you are conftown. Maybe there's something why gamma is better kill than you idk

It wasn't really a threat or a "promise". RR just thought I was more likely to die because I was more active than Gamma during the last phase.

I don't think there's some 300 IQ reason for Gamma's death, maybe scum just killed the player they thought was generally strongest. Maybe they saw how I got Rat miselimmed yesterday and are hoping I'll give them another miselim.

Gamma was more suspicious of Johnny's slot, maybe more suspicious of Math, too, so maybe their death susses these two slots slightly more.

Effort!Aisa will be back for y'all's amusement in a few hours.

[Aisa]

Y'all need to towntell at some point today to help me out, ok? xx
Or maybe scum could just quote their PT or something. That would be much appreciated.

[Aisa]

Spoiler: Fluff

Effort!Aisa was a no show, but don't worry, I've found a substitute. I'm really thankful to Apathy!Aisa for stepping in to take this at the last minute.

So anyway.

CSF flipping maf HIGHLY suggests that last scum outside of team 2, because... Bruh really, why mafia would put all teammates with self, it's critically dumb.
So let's give remainings of Team 2 conftown status and sheep them.

Thanks, now i can go gaming normal games.

You and Gamma conftown, so...

It's kinda you to decide.

Hmm... how does this make sense though? Why would you just sheep me and Gamma instead of trying to form your own reads?

Sorry RR! I'll do my best to avenge you.

I suppose could be Vivax.

Hey Math, what do you think of Andante/JohnnyFarrar?

Also I will be

LA from this Friday to Monday 6 pm BST

.

Townier than Vivax by a mile

I have RL today so this is going to have to do unless I get a chance over lunch until tomorrow.

VOTE: Vivax

What's towny about them? What's scummy about Vivax?

[Aisa]

I remember there was something I meant to bring up here but never did.
I previously brought this up in the PT, where everyone straight up ignored me (understandably). If I were more sensible I would probably have taken this as a sign to shut up and never bring this up again. Unfortunately for you all, I am not sensible and my heart will not let go of this, so... in a spoiler tag it goes:

Spoiler: ??

So! You've all been referring to the PT Gamma and I were in as "the past". Well no shit, that's where Pooky said we'd get sent, so imagine my confusion when I get access to this PT and it is called "the future" with basically no foreshadowing whatsoever.
But ejjinami also calls it "the future" in this post. I think that's what they meant at least.
95% this is just an odd coincidence, why would scum be more informed than town on this specific flavour detail? But also ?? nothing about this makes sense.

While I was reading that post I came across this which seems definitely worth commenting on:

[...]

ohhhh okay then that simplifies things a bit, since we don't have to decide who goes into which group

so we basically pick our top 5 townreads I think

I don’t think that’s the mechanically correct thing to do
It “feels” like it’s the right thing but frankly, that may be a huge landmine

I’d at least seriously consider choosing people who’d give the most benefits from getting them in a PoE

I’d also consider what the benefits of having the same players on both teams are. Like- the team that remains in the present will surely have to do something as well

[...]

Yikes. This now looks pretty dodgy.

actually, EVERYONE should write what teams they want to be on.
This should be seriously taken into account.

Somewhat understandable, but also somewhat yikes

[Aisa]

[...]

Looks like it might be necessary to undig that discussion with the two PTs and what it meant for who was on them again.
Fwiw I would agree that your posts look townie, but mostly my read is from mechanics. So that deffo looks lazy.

Don't feel bad for low efforting though. Game only becomes hard to me if MB doesn't flip red.

I genuinely don't quite understand whether this is a joke.

In case it isn't: I guess that if you have genuine concerns they seem worth addressing. Why does that need to be unearthed?

[Aisa]

Okok so
*deep breath*
I think I may have misunderstood what you meant which caused me to ask a question that did not make sense.
I think you then proceeded to rephrase the one line of your post which I did understand. Which is very much appreciated!

Could you please also explain/rephrase these two lines?

Looks like it might be necessary to undig that discussion with the two PTs and what it meant for who was on them again.
Fwiw I would agree that your posts look townie, but mostly my read is from mechanics. So that deffo looks lazy.

[Aisa]

Like what looks lazy? What is necessary to undig? Why is it necessary?

[Aisa]

Okok so
*deep breath*
I think I may have misunderstood what you meant which caused me to ask a question that did not make sense.
I think you then proceeded to rephrase the one line of your post which I did understand. Which is very much appreciated!

Could you please also explain/rephrase these two lines?

Looks like it might be necessary to undig that discussion with the two PTs and what it meant for who was on them again.
Fwiw I would agree that your posts look townie, but mostly my read is from mechanics. So that deffo looks lazy.

You and GE were the only ones left from the team where two mafias got nabbed, so it's highly unlikely to impossible for you both to have been mafia.

Thanks.
I understand that. My problem is not that Enchant decided that Gamma and I were conftown. That is highly appreciated
What I meant to ask Enchant was why they were so keen to specifically sheep me or Gamma. Just because someone is highly likely to be town doesn't mean you need to hand over control of the game to them.
Am I making any sense?

And if I'm not wrong mafia would have auto-lost if they all were on your team, but I'm not sure if I was looking at a hosting mistake.

Not quite. It worked like this:
ejjinami selected a team of 6. CSF selected a team of 6.
Everyone voted on which team they preferred.
Mafia would have auto lost if the preferred team contained no scum.

[Aisa]

^ cannot see Math/Vivax t/t at the moment

Aisa, in reverse.

Who you think is Town?
Expect me. Someone you say "I am ready to bet on this person as win". We need just one townie, who will survive with me/you, and it's autowin.

Considering there's more townies, it's supposedly easier to find town than maf... I guess.


I know i am laying too much shit while not really doing anything, but if you curious on who i would pick, it's Math. Surprisingly? Don't look at my mind (nor anyone else) while making choice though.

Thanks. I was thinking something similar. First I went through a small phase of panic where I was like "help I don't know who the scum isss" but you're right.
If we can correctly identify two town beside myself it's a win.

[Aisa]

Obviously please don't worry about having to effort if you're really sick! Get well soon!

I'm taking my sweet time because I can, but will come out with an opinion at some point.

[Aisa]

Aisa, in reverse.

Who you think is Town?
Expect me. Someone you say "I am ready to bet on this person as win". We need just one townie, who will survive with me/you, and it's autowin.

Considering there's more townies, it's supposedly easier to find town than maf... I guess.


I know i am laying too much shit while not really doing anything, but if you curious on who i would pick, it's Math. Surprisingly?

Why Math?

Don't look at my mind (nor anyone else) while making choice though.

...Have you ever considered practicing what you preach? <3

[Aisa]

I feel like your posting today has been a bit OMGUSsy, Math. Would you say that's normal for you?
Disregard if you're too sick

[Aisa]

So it’s because Math originally unvoted at E-1?

[Aisa]

Johnny has an interesting strategy if scum in buddying me

Mafia thing to say.
Johnny has been pushing for my kill since forever. If town he wouldn't give a damn about buddying you, just about killing me. This is just a pocketing attempt.

Do you disagree that Johnny is buddying Math?
Do you disagree with Math’s argument that scum!Johnny wouldn’t buddy Math?

[Aisa]

How confident are you in your reads Johnny? Particularly the Vivax scumread you presumably have?

[Aisa]

I read some old stuff again and I stand by my Andante and Enchant townreads.

I have thoooooughts on ejjinami/Math's slot:
- Tonally, I really like a lot of ejjinami's posts. Their train of thought in certain posts seems like it would be really difficult to fake as scum. Here are a couple posts that made me think "no way ejjinami is scum here":

Spoiler: quotes

hey loki btw
I'm currently considering this - I'll listen to your strongest reads (town-reads) and take them into my team, yet leave you out.
I don't promise that I'll do that, it's a suggestion I haven't fully considered myself. I do usually seriously take into account insanely confident reads of other players regardless if I trust them or not. If town- good. If scum- fair chances are- they're whiteknighting a townie anyway.

Are you confident enough in your reads to have me do that?

Gaslighted by me? Why? I don’t agree with your takes, you or Andante’s. How is that gaslighting?

My “specialty”? What???

I'll skip this part. I feel like it'll lead to a conversation about different understanding of words and possibly me misunderstanding your playstyle and I'm not really looking for that.

By specialty I mean- what skill you are most proud of.
My guess till now is that you may specialize in faking emotions or something related to that
I do realize that answering is not in your best interest, tho it WILL help me understand you better if you choose to do so
Like- what skill of yours do you feel most proud of
What's the single thing you do most often when trying to manipulate others
you can refuse to answer if you want to. I'm not gonna judge for that

I mean, I'm assuming everything people are saying in terms of reads are just very mild, not locktown level.. I think you're fine!! lol wait
@ejjinami, do you not like people voicing their reads in the moment? like, you just straight to the conclusion... a comment on post 7 of a game is a lock town read? idk, it just feels like you're trying to pick apart the little things, as get us not trusting the people who you know are gonna be the most obv town or something... idk, feels weird, I think 47 was in the posts of yours I gave up on, or I'd have commented at the time.

oh and Aisa is giving me bad vibes tho that's most likely becuase of their playstyle, not necessarily alignment

frankly, this feels like one of those games where I'll need several days just to get to know the players personally before trying to determine anything

ahhh there we go... that "hidden agenda" behind yelling at Aisa over a "lock town read on post 7" on a real note though, can we please not play the game like "Bad vibes here!!! cuz playstyle, but bad vibes!!!" like, I could definitely say the same about you right now, I can't stand your playstyle, but, I'm reading your posts.. like, where you said you'd heal csf/roden like, they haven't done too much this game, you went after Aisa for TRing Roden for one of their like only posts thus far yet you also TR that same post so why?? like, if you TR the same person as Aisa. and that person has 1 post.. yet you just said there was no way Aisa could TR Roden off that 1 post.. there's no new content.. it's still just that 1 post..

holy fuck just kill me
it seriously feels like you’re focusing on me solely because you’re in a state of emotional excitement
read my posts again, please. Half of what you’re talking about can be deduced easily
the other half is just simply a misunderstanding of what I’m writing
Emotional misunderstandings are generally townie but holy damn I seriously hope I was wrong about the leader mechanics

my initial reads are too weak to explain. Treat them as non-existent or just vote me when you have the opportunity to do so
What I meant by “I think their personality is just pinging me” – is that I may be getting pinged by something that’s totally normal for them. That’s a way of me saying- I notice the ping and consider it NAI.

In 652, ejjinami:
-- Comes up with this somewhat convoluted reasoning to sheep Loki's strongest town reads
-- ALSO asks Loki how confident he is in his town reads to check if it makes sense to sheep him. Which is more likely, that ejjinami is town and genuinely trying to solve the game, or that scum!ejji realises that this is something town would worry about and decides to replicate it? Which is more likely, that ejjinami is trying to sort, or that ejjinami is looking for an excuse to townread whoever Loki was townreading at the time (Gamma?), but goes about it in this extremely roundabout way?

As for 88, I just think that it takes some courage to back yourself when someone is accusing and say "no, you're misunderstanding me or not reading carefully enough." I think it's slightly easier to do if you're town because you tend to remember what your opinions are. If you're scum you have to go through the additional step of remembering what your opinions were supposed to be.

Overall any single one of Ejji's posts could be faked with enough effort, but holy cow, that is an impressive body of genuine-sounding posts if ejjinami is scum.

- What makes me hesitate a bit is VCA/the fact some of their reads feel way too convenient. Like here:

Spoiler: quote

[...]

ejj if we wanna use vca and use it to say im scum with csf what does that say about you?
Fun fact: vca is shit and always has been.

I’m too townie to be scum-read
honesty is my specialty, I’m close to impossible to yeet when I’m able to use it

Frankly, I don’t trust my voters. The wagon is likely dirty
The context matters a lot tho

and no one really said that you’re scum with CSF tbh

i refuse to vote andante out of spite atp and also bc mechanics are not her strong suit to put it lightly

that’s fair

I'd go for loki fidget aisa
Thats it

I………… really don’t trust any of them enough xd
frankly atm loki probably the most tho that’s another one of those reads I got because of a weird emotional state so it’s not anything I’ll ever rely on

rr has been fairly shallow, has had ingenuine reads that focus on an agenda of silencing people fosing them by chainsaw defense and in general just hasnt really shown an inclination to solve(imo, i know people wont see this last one potentially bc they see wall post = solvy)

I disagree but this feels like a genuine read

I know I've been accused of being shallow but thats simply untrue and im growing suspicion of those accusing me of that due to the fact that i know ive examined this game from several angles including considering ejj scum at one point yesterday (didnt state it bc i mentally processed it but these are things i have considered)

HEAL: NotAHecticAlt
HEAL: andante

this might suck

with the benefit of hindsight, it's frustrating to see them exonerate NAHA while rejecting three slots I know to be town (myself, Loki, Gamma). There's other stuff like this.
But idk it is also true that the post ejji quoted above ^ as feeling like a genuine read also felt like a genuine read to me at the time. And while they didn't sound very enthusiastic about Loki + Gamma in that post, eventually they did include both in their team.

[Aisa]

^ I wrote all that out because I really want feedback on it. If you read that and find yourself thinking "hmm, not sure I agree" I would like to know.

[Aisa]

Finally, some thoughts on what Vivax has done in this thread:
- I like this post:

Spoiler: quote

Nooo Fidget

I've waited 24 hours to say this so it hits a little less hard now, but to any pals from my PT who are reading and Gamma, that CSF flip was an emotional rollercoaster hahaha.

p-edit: lol Enchant wait till you see our PT

Our order of lims and deaths was
Day 1 -> NAHA
Night 1 -> Loki/Freedom
Day 2 -> CSF
Night 2 -> Fidget

Yeah
Pretty sure Vivax is town based on both NAHA and CSF going after Toog

Before I head out I'd like to add that the conclusion is correct, but it's also an easy type of post to make as mafia. You should be more wary of scum bussing so this feels like it lacks paranoia about my slot and just echoes the sentiment of the last page.
In other words, you go to toast pile for it.

- There are

a lot

of jokes in his ISO. Initially I wanted to make a list of all his posts that were jokes but I gave up.
- Sussed ejjinami for that post about the Mafia PT. I still think this ought to be slightly +town, much to my dismay
- Pushes Gamma then says "next time you're town and I call you mafia don't overreact like this", then I ask him if he agrees Gamma and I are town, he says he has to think about it. Maybe playstyle, but eh, maybe there's a bit of inconsistency there
- "Apparently Enchant floats the notion that there's 2 confirmed town [...] I don't know who he means exactly" oof not sure I buy this in retrospect
- "Will compromise with people willing to compromise" followed by RR vote: I didn't say this but this did strike me as possibly scummy at the time.
- I don't want to look at the discussion we had about "undigging that discussion with the two PTs" again because I am still not sure I understand
- He starts by saying JohnnyFarrar seems scummy, at some point he "wrote off" Johnny as a scumread but it's not clear why

Maybe the best way to summarise my thoughts is that it's not clear he is trying to solve the game. I understand he has explained this with not wanting to effort / not wanting to overthink it, but at some point I have to assess whether he's using this as a convenient excuse and I think he may be.

Also want feedback on this if people feel like it

[Aisa]

I was gonna say:
...reflecting on why I decided to ask for feedback since the two players who are most likely to give me feedback will each say that my case on the other is amazing

[Aisa]

That's sweet! If you're town, thank you for trying, and if you're scum, idk, you have style

On a more serious note

[...]

He’s relying on the fact that he posted a sticker.

It’s a low level gimmick.

A lot of Vivax’s posts are gimmicks.

Yeah but you always have to keep in mind what Vivax's baseline composition of gimmick is, independent of alignment, and I get the impression it is very high.
This is why I don't find that your post really adds anything for me.
I don't know you very well at all so it could easily be that my impression of you is mistaken, but I find it hard to think that you wouldn't expect this ^ reaction from me.
Which makes me wonder what you think you're accomplishing with a post like this.
Maybe it all goes back to covid. That would be fair.

[Aisa]

This is a lot of reading for a game I thought was solved? What's going on

Me. All that's going on is me, I'm afraid. Sometimes I want to triple- and quadruple-reread everything and I'm afraid you've caught me in one of those moods. I also wouldn't say the game is solved, but eh.

[Aisa]

Anyway. I'm personally ready to end the day and

I intend to hammer Vivax

.

I'm not massively massively confident it's him, but it's my best guess and I'm not sure how much more I have left to give today.

If this doesn't end the game I think Math's slot is slightly more suspicious than the other two, but all slots will need to be reevaluated tomorrow. To borrow Enchant's words, y'all better turn into paranoid fucks.

I don't mind holding off on the hammer if people feel like they need more time, though.

[Aisa]

...Go ahead with what? You hammered.

[Aisa]

Though before you interrupted my train of thought I was going to post "...can't believe I now have to wait for you all to check in to be able to hammer", so I am secretly pleased

[Aisa]

No comment bruh. I hope we won too!
Also I have been pretty bad at counting votes this game so I keep going back and checking that it is a hammer. I think it is.

...Can't believe I am alone with my thoughts and have to wait an unknown amount of time for this flip

[Aisa]

Why are you scumcasing yourself?

I did like your "Who wants to be a millionaire?" meme by the way

[Aisa]

I did mean the pic
Can get on board with thinking it's a sign we've won this game cold hard reality can wait for tomorrow
...I need to leave this thread don't I

[Aisa]

Delight

[Aisa]

Hey Pooky, I have something for you as promised :3

Spoiler: A small tribute

I will never forget what Pooky did for me. As you will all certainly remember, I made a huge judgment error and decided to click the submit button five times in rapid succession at one point, making me submit the same wall post again... and again... and again. It was the darkest of times. The huge wave of shame I felt as soon as I realised what I had done threatened to annihilate me. In desperation, I sought refuge in the only place I could: Pooky's PMs. I wrote them with a long, impassioned plea and asked if they could possibly, possibly ever consider deleting the duplicates. "sure", they replied, their writing succint and melodious, truly a sign of the gods, their infinite grace and mercy delivering me from my sin. And truly unending their patience was, for they also put up with my multiple other silly questions and requests without so much as a complaint.

When we've been there ten thousand years,
bright shining as the sun,
we've no less days to sing Pooky's praise
than when we've first begun.

[Aisa]

I had a lot of fun.

You were all a delight to play with.

Not sure what the consensus on this is, but I really liked the PT mechanism. I believe this is my first completed game of this size, and I liked the fact I was almost immediately dealing with a smaller playerlist. I also really enjoyed reuniting with the other players and finding out what they had been up to.

A few people I feel deserve special shoutouts:
Jingle - for backup modding
Loki - I never gave you credit for this in game, but your writing was what eventually got through my thick skull and convinced me to vote NAHA
Freedom - for being in the unfortunate situation of substituting in and immediately being NK'd
Vivax - substituting in and having to play solo scum is my worst nightmare brrr well played (I know you were not initially solo, but whatever, close enough)

I don't think I ever got access to my notes PT (not a problem at all), so you can do what you want with it Pooky.

[Aisa]

Subject: Terminator Salvation: Terminator PT

Last spam and then I promise I will go, I just thought of something. I really like NAHA's takes in this game. I think part of the problem might be that in one of my previous games I nearly got burned by this scum when I thought I mind-melded sooo well with him and now I'm just wary of mind-melding as a sorting tool. But maybe, just maybe, it is time for me to chalk that up to bad luck, let gooo of those reservations and embrace mind-melding once more

<3 i am so sorry

lmao
Safe to say I'm over mind-melding at least for a couple months