Large Normal 240: Baileyposting [game over]

[UNOwen]

Hello everyone

VOTE: Lowell

[UNOwen]

Does Owen TR me too for that snap reaction?

UNVOTE: Lowell
VOTE: Vivax

[UNOwen]

Why do you not believe that I had a good reason to find your entrance worth a vote? The last game we played in together you used the same and I didn't know if it was a standard opener of yours.

It's the idea that you didn't know the reason for your vote until Crescent pointed it out that I don't believe.

[UNOwen]

Posts 21 and 22 suggest that MegAzumarill and Vivax are not both mafia.

Why?

[UNOwen]

To me it seems like a natural way of thinking:
See thing that somehow pings you for pure gut reasons. Get pointed out that the one who pinged you did the same opener as mafia in the previous game. Conclude that maybe that's why it pinged me because of the latent memory.

Sure that's possible but it seems more likely that if you noticed my first post it would be because you also noticed that it was the same as our previous game.

[UNOwen]

Would you agree with the takeaway that crescent is town from that interaction?
That was my takeaway from that

I think she could make those posts as scum, they're null to me.

[UNOwen]

Geraint's post within the scope of thinking that no one already tried what he did.

What does this mean?

[UNOwen]

Why does it seem more likely?

Because the alternative is you got spooked by "hello everyone".

Tell me what his post looks like to you and I’ll answer.

Suspicious attempt at saying "don't expect much from me".

[UNOwen]

That's not much of an answer Vivax.

[UNOwen]

mfw Vivax complains no-one's reading my posts but clearly hasn't read them properly himself

[UNOwen]

I am townreading

Vivax

for tone, this thing going on between them is NAI imo. 119 suggests it's something coming from a past game.

Could you expand on what you think is going on between me and Vivax?

[UNOwen]

Was post 126 telling Vivax what you think geraintm's post looks like to you?

Postscript: post 124 for more context.

Spoiler:

yes

[UNOwen]

Fred could easily be scum, his commentary so far has been pretty shallow and doesn't suggest he's actually given things much thought (see also 179 which asks Lowell a question pretty obviously answered in context).

[UNOwen]

OK Enchant is town too, this game's gonna be easy when everyone starts posting.

Agree that Enchant is town.

UNVOTE: Vivax
VOTE: MegAzumarill

[UNOwen]

If the only read you have on someone is tonal why would you think its a bad wagon.

To me this feels like tmi that I'm town.
Also dont like the MT vote.
VOTE: Fancypants

Why aren't you bothered by the wagon against you?

[UNOwen]

@Crescent

Crescent - eh idk
Lowell - prob town

^I think this part of his read list in particular looks genuine, lazy scum would more likely have the reads flipped as easier to justify.

[UNOwen]

This doesn't feel like a scum push from Vivax, but I don't quite get it.
Vivax can you resummarize why you think Unowen is scum

this is a scum post because it doesn't state what meg's opinion of Unowen is

I think this is very correct.

[UNOwen]

@Meg

Why aren't you bothered by the wagon against you?

Not really no.
Anyone on my wagon is welcome to ask me questions, I haven't seen anything to address as of yet.

It's cool that FancyPants answered, but this question was addressed to you.

[UNOwen]

Owen still has given zero explanation for his Meg vote (a common theme in this game apparently), and he made it over 24 hours ago. The post before that Meg vote was shading Fred. How does this connect?

With Fred I was irritated at him for asking about geraintm, which I thought was obvious at that point. His follow up question to Vivax suggested he was asking for Vivax's benefit as much as his own, and not as I first assumed just trying to imply that my initial post didn't look like an answer. He could still be scum, but I at least misjudged his initial interaction with me.

[UNOwen]

these don't sound too bad tbh

What's your read on Meg?

[UNOwen]

Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.

[UNOwen]

For the love of all that is holy I can we not no-elim on day 1, there seems to be some talk that we won't reach a lim. For the record I stand by my townreads of:
{vivax, greeting, Crescent, Prince, Andante, MegAzumaril} from post 311 and I'll add Enchant and Fred, I'll gladly vote with this block.

Where did this idea about no elimination come from?

[UNOwen]

I doubt it, but will be very sad if Prince turns out to be scum.

[UNOwen]

did bugspray claim maf? what did I miss?

You seem to have missed 508.

[UNOwen]

Malcolm's hammer was bad, he needs to explain what arguments he was convinced by and why it took him until Meg was at E-1 to be convinced.

[UNOwen]

Adante = town.

My hesitation with Fred is that Lowell abandoned the Meg wagon for Fred just as it began to gather momentum, and then didn't return until it was clear the Meg wagon was serious. So it seemed like Lowell might have been trying to defuse the pressure on his buddy which obviously doesn't work if Fred is also scum.

[UNOwen]

Lowell ended up probably the single hardest person in the game on Meg's train though, as he was really pushing that to be hammered after stalling out for so long. It's theoretically "possible" that Meg disappeared intentionally just to let Lowell do this, but that's kind of a total bush-league play.

Eh, I didn't really see the wagon as having stalled for that long. There was about a week until deadline, it felt like Meg being at least put at E-1 was only a matter of time.

[UNOwen]

Most likely one of them is, least likely both are town.

Why?

[UNOwen]

I tried to puzzle together the purpose behind this post.

Looking at Lowell's ISO it doesn't seem like one should assume that they wanted to defuse pressure. Both Fred and Meg were their scumreads and it looks like they were flexibly swapping between the wagons.
The post above implies a 100% scumread on Lowell considering that the purpose of that post seems to be at most

to townread Fred off Lowells presumed mafia-alignment

, but nowhere else is there an indication of a Lowell scumread from Owen.

UNOwen claimed Malcolms hammer was bad and there's a decent wagon right from SoD, but didn't vote.

Spoiler:

Malcolm's hammer was bad, he needs to explain what arguments he was convinced by and why it took him until Meg was at E-1 to be convinced.

So
VOTE: UNOwen

I don't think it's that complicated, Lowell's wagon swapping looks scummy and Lowell scum would clear Fred.

You aren't considering the context of his votes. When he switched to Fred, the Meg wagon had reached 5 and the Fred wagon was at 4. Since his last post the Meg wagon had gained 3 votes, while Fred wagon gained 2 which it lost in the same period. So with two scumreads why not stick on the wagon with momentum? Then when the Fred wagon fell apart, his next vote switch was against Prince (who didn't have any other voters at that point) instead of returning to the Meg wagon which still had 4 votes. No mention of Meg in those posts either (454,455). It wasn't until arguments started being pushed for Meg being scum that Lowell rejoined the wagon - but he was claiming to scumread Meg already, so he wouldn't need persuasion.

[UNOwen]

Yo, Greeting:

Most likely one of them is, least likely both are town.

Why?

[UNOwen]

Firebringer, Greeting

[UNOwen]

I ignored this question before, because the answer to it is in the very post you quoted.

No it isn't, but ok.

[UNOwen]

Wasn't too keen on Lowell D1 but also almost close to confirmed town for me from the info we have now.

Is that just for the early vote, do you disagree with 866?

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Firebringer

What's your reasoning, and why not give it in this post?

[UNOwen]

Don't see the case against FancyPants/Unsure. FancyPants was a little LAMISTy, but that felt like it was his personality. The only thing that looked out of place to me was his concern over a non-elimination which could be explained as him skimming over and misreading Crescent's 449. I think his reaction to Meg's vote better fits as town reacting to a town read acting scummy than as scum reacting to a scum buddy acting scummy. He probably would have used Meg's vote against him as an opportunity to distance rather than doubling down on defending Meg if they were both scum.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Fred

A player in Fred's position shouldn't be handing out town reads so easily.

[UNOwen]

Spoiler: 1003

VOTE: Fred

A player in Fred's position shouldn't be handing out town reads so easily.

So, your reason for voting me is because I shouldn't townread players.

I think you shouldn't be giving town reads so easily, considering you were just wrong about Meg. You're also one of the main wagons today. Both of these should I think prompt you to be less trusting and more doubtful at the state of the game. I get that you adjusted in 1016, but this is after pressure and not something that you came to yourself so I'm not giving it much weight.

As for whether I think you're mafia: probably. I'm not certain. It's definitely possible you're town who has this approach to the game. At this point though you've crossed the line where I can consider this plausible as town. Prime example:

Crescent I'm townreading for attempting to find mafia.

Firebringer I'm voting because Firebringer is one of the players I'm not townreading.

MalcolmTucker is also a player I'm not townreading, but I've randomly decided to go for Firebringer first.

You randomly decided to vote the player no-one else was pushing instead of the one with the lead wagon? Out of a pool of only three players?

[UNOwen]

That's not right, I initially voted Meg because I thought 156 was scummy. Meg's non-reaction to the wagon then solidified him as likely scum.

[UNOwen]

It's pinging me like crazy is he just made a terrible excuse to get off of the vote, that also completely goes against what happened yesterday (where the player this same pattern happened on actually was scum). The reason he unvoted does not feel like a town reason. It feels manufactured. This doesn't feel like a bus vote on Fred and an odd late unvote because they're scum together - This feels like Enchant helping push the wagon forward, then finding an excuse to get off of it so he won't be on it when it flips

green

This is a decent point.

Or you just misunderstand my words hard.

This isn't a great response. How were your words intended to be understood?

[UNOwen]

IMO we should execute Fred and then he will flip red and we'll wonder why it was ever doubted.

1249 doesn't convince me that Malakittens isn't a policy vote, which I'm not interested in.

[UNOwen]

There are posts since my last post but none of them change my opinion.

[UNOwen]

What “policy” is a Mala vote enforcing?

The policy of post more than Dwlee if you don't want to die.

[UNOwen]

@Malcolm - do you have a read list?

[UNOwen]

I am wondering why, in spite of being townread so widely, my reads, which I feel are very widely substantiated, are not being shared by the vast majority of players. The fact that there are players who supposedly townread me and whom I townread (

Crescent

comes to mind) and who for some reason keep refusing to work with me leads us nowhere. It's giving me a real headache and making me wonder if there is a point in me even speaking about my scumreads anymore.

And yes, some of you people who say are townreading me are lying scum who just know that there is not enough suspicion to scapegoat me and throw me out.

You said your reason for townreading Malcolm was meta. Does this hold with his passivity on day 2?

[UNOwen]

I'm not paranoid about either Crescent or Greeting, both are surely town.

Specifically this post. I don't think scum makes this post as the vote leader concerning someone scum would pretty desperately want to see remain in the POE in Lowell. This one post gives me a soft town read on Malcolm, as it's a thought no one else in the game specifically wrote out. and it feels like a genuine process to sort Lowell.

Good reminder that I wanted Malcolm to answer 918.

[UNOwen]

I'm not paranoid about either Crescent or Greeting, both are surely town.

What makes either of us "surely town"?

Greeting voting Meg early, explaining it was a serious vote before it was clear that Pooky was also serious, Meg's non-reaction to the initial wagon (I think he would have engaged with it more if he had a buddy on board). It looks very town and genuine to me.

You are town mostly because of your endless will to solve but also your activity at end of day 1, debating with Unsure, thinking about Fred/Meg and getting frustrated about the lack of anyone else being around. IMO scum already saw the writing on the wall for Meg by then, so that you thought it was dragging puts you in a clear town perspective.

[UNOwen]

I don't think the writing was on the wall for Meg yet.

But also you kind of contradicted your own point.. If scum thought the writing was on the wall for Meg, scum should

want

to vote Meg in that situation, as very early hammers often benefit scum more than town. My vote was placed because it was dragging, but there's also a pretty clear potential scum motive for having placed it as well that you flat out just pointed out, especially when you combine that I was pairing Meg and Fred, and am the leading cause of why Fred died yesterday, when my vote didn't even end on him because he suddenly went from -3 to dead in a flash.

But yeah, that was pretty ridiculous that Lowell and I suddenly seemed to be the only two players interested in content and it's part of why I got townpings from him in the moment.. His behavior has also remained almost entirely consistent since them.

Well exactly, I believe you didn't think the writing was on the wall (and still don't). For me though Meg's 557 and subsequent absence was pure "scum knows it's over and attempts some WIFOM for post flip" and I imagine that the rest of the scum team had a similar perspective.

I don't follow your talk about a contradiction. Could you explain it again?

[UNOwen]

If you think scum thought the writing was on the wall, it makes objective sense for me as scum to place the vote on Meg when I did.

Though really, I've seen town go inactive for 30+ hours before under pressure here. I was basically trying to put him in "post or die" mode.

Right, yes, that's not my point though. It's that I don't think your perception of the game at that time (no-one's contributing, just me and Lowell) was the perception you'd have if you were scum (who I believe were already looking ahead to day 2 at that point).

[UNOwen]

He'd make comments such as I made a "decent" point against Enchant, but it didn't feel like he was really pursing them.

To expand on this I did think your point against Enchant was decent, just not unanswerable.

Since he didn't deem us worthy of an explanation we can only guess what he was thinking with the unvote, my best guess is that it was a reaction to Malcolm's 1066 (and I suppose possibly also Greeting but that didn't stand out to me) which was indeed weirdly cautious. 1076 can then be seen as Enchant describing why scum Malcolm would want to offer support to the Fred wagon but be hesitant about giving intent to hammer. This doesn't seem AI to me, Enchant could be town who thought it was suspicious and unvoted or scum who thought it looked suspicious and tried to fake the reaction he would have to it as town.

That Enchant seemingly dropped this point and hasn't bothered following it up makes me lean towards it being the latter case though. Town who feel they have a genuine point that was misinterpreted would still want to go back to it, scum are more likely to be the ones backing off in the face of a bad response.

[UNOwen]

Honestly, nothing near a full one. Been struggling to get into this game/be fully engaged with it, unsure why, just hasn't clicked yet. Happy to case any players/go through any thoughts you want to quiz me on though.

It would be helpful if you have any scumgames that demonstrate your engagement isn't alignment dependent, because my current reference is that from skimming through your ISO in 2275 you seemed more involved.

I was also hoping for an elaboration on your Lowell read.

[UNOwen]

Team liar leader outing the mafia in this post?

How can you say that, I'm the most honest and transparent person there ever was.

[UNOwen]

Unsure 1419 i don't like.

Why?

[UNOwen]

I really should learn how to write a joke

Apparently so should I...

(I got you weren't being serious, neither was I)

[UNOwen]

I can get behind this.

VOTE: UNOwen

Why?

[UNOwen]

This post doesn't look good to me. It's a loaded question.
Loaded questions aren't genuine information seeking.

I'm not sure whether you're genuinely pushing me on this post, but if so you're correct that it was a loaded question. The most logical answer was that Meg was scum, and by pushing him on it I was trying to draw attention to an argument that I hoped would convince people. Of course there was a chance Meg would be town and have an answer that didn't occur to me too, I wasn't expecting it by then though.

[UNOwen]

Your expectation that they would flip mafia flowed into the post and so you worded it too aggressively imo.
The mafia curse of wanting to look right.

If you're saying a more subtle approach might've got an answer then yeah, possibly. Accusing questions shouldn't shake townies though.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Lowell
This is the way forward. My reasoning is 866, but the short explanation is that Lowell gave this:

Biggest scumread that stands out to me that I didn't notice before is

prince

. Not going to derail the perfectly good

Fred

wagon but if this feckless town chickens out let's do him or

Meg

next.

Andante

looks worse than I remember. Some likely towns are:

gerain, crescent, pooky, vivax

.

as his excuse to jump from the scum Meg wagon with momentum, to the town Fred wagon that was faltering. And then went on a vanity vote against Prince rather than immediately return to the Meg wagon when the Fred wagon collapsed.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Lowell
This is the way forward. My reasoning is 866, but the short explanation is that Lowell gave this:

Biggest scumread that stands out to me that I didn't notice before is

prince

. Not going to derail the perfectly good

Fred

wagon but if this feckless town chickens out let's do him or

Meg

next.

Andante

looks worse than I remember. Some likely towns are:

gerain, crescent, pooky, vivax

.

as his excuse to jump from the scum Meg wagon with momentum, to the town Fred wagon that was faltering. And then went on a vanity vote against Prince rather than immediately return to the Meg wagon when the Fred wagon collapsed.

Great point!
VOTE: Lowell

[UNOwen]

Prince deserves more scorn for 1571 than UnOwen does for 1570, btw. Looks to me like scum is waiting for a chance to get rid of me and jumping on the first dumb idea.

In what world do you believe scum have you as a priority target?

[UNOwen]

The reason I doubt Prince is scum is pretty much what you just said Crescent. If he's scum then chose to spend most of his energy day 1 on backing me up, which given my thread presence is surely a terrible investment from a scum POV. Alternatively he's just a townie who found some of my posts agreeable/understandable. This doesn't seem very unreasonable to me. I agree the Pooky push doesn't look great in context, apart from that though I don't have any issues with his posts. He looks like town approaching the game in a rational way, theoretically his posts could be faked by scum, but it could also be exactly what it looks like. There's not much of an argument that I can see for him actually being scum.

[UNOwen]

I'm not sure how much can be read into Lowell's vote hopping on day 1. As we saw on day 2, his vote hops around a lot. The only difference is the primary vote on day 2 wasn't scum.

One thing I will say about post #1570... That argument on Lowell doesn't compare to the argument on Prince, who attacked the wagon leader (without mentioning the wagon) the moment it took the lead, and then joined the wagon the moment it expanded. I'm going to do some research into this

The issue isn't just his vote swapping but the timing of it. Maybe this is being lost in the quote but this statement:

Not going to derail the perfectly good

Fred

wagon but if this feckless town chickens out let's do him or

Meg

next.

contradicts what was happening in the thread.

The Fred wagon had stalled, the Meg wagon had grown. Lowell's vote switch looks more like an attempt at rejuvenating the Fred wagon and derailing the Meg wagon. You can believe that Lowell was just completely indifferent between Meg and Fred, but this doesn't match with his behaviour as when the Fred wagon collapsed he moved to voting Prince (no mention of Meg at all). Not until the Meg wagon became clearly serious did he return.

[UNOwen]

Prince is correct, we know only that there's

at least

one mafia doctor in this game, so Lowell isn't cleared even a bit.

Unfortunately, flipping a mafia doctor would not fully clear you. It has already been mentioned that the mod has previously made a setup with multiple mafia doctors.

Why did you give any credence to bugspray's result in the first place?

[UNOwen]

I can never tell how much of Vivax's posts I should take seriously, and how much are just trolling. Gun to my head I'd be tempted to say he's scum just because of a weird comment he made back on day 1 but someone with his energy level for a game is typically town. Probably he is town unless further flips start to point at him.

@geraintm - what do you think of Lowell?

[UNOwen]

Sure.

UNVOTE: Lowell
VOTE: Enchant

[UNOwen]

I want to execute Enchant because no-one seems interested in voting Lowell and I don't want to execute Prince. He can be scum because of what I said in 1507 but I'm not confident in it.

If the numbers aren't there for Enchant then I'd be ok with voting Malakittens.

[UNOwen]

Now, I have no idea why some people keep raising the issue of

Lowell

being a scumread when

bugspray

literally towncleared him as all mafia members should yield in a red gunsmith check. But if I can miss stuff, other players can miss it too, especially in a game with so many players that is rather slow-paced.

:/

~

at least one member of the mafia is a doctor, and they may or may not have modifiers.

[UNOwen]

I agree that Malcolm sitting on his vote is strange.

[UNOwen]

Ok with this wagon.

UNVOTE: Enchant
VOTE: MalcolmTucker

[UNOwen]

Agreed, don't like that claim at all. Death to Malcolm!

[UNOwen]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

[UNOwen]

+1 to all of Crescent's comments about the claim, don't trust it for a second

Malcolm/Lowell/Malakittens looks like a pretty good solve to me.

[UNOwen]

Enchant unvotes (after claiming vigilante too)

I didn't see any claim?

[UNOwen]

Oh ok

[UNOwen]

Best to eliminate me.

1000%
None of these posts convince me that this claim is anything other than an attempt to get to day 4.

[UNOwen]

Lowell is scum but Malcolm is too and I'm not unvoting. If we let him live then I'm 90% sure day 4 will be wasted discussing why he wasn't able to successfully kill anyone.

[UNOwen]

If scum roleblocks me, they can't roleblock malcolm, and I can definitively prove tonight whether malcolm is real or not

Whatever your role is they won't need to block Malcolm because he's lying.

[UNOwen]

Lowell is scum but Malcolm is too and I'm not unvoting. If we let him live then I'm 90% sure day 4 will be wasted discussing why he wasn't able to successfully kill anyone.

[UNOwen]

idk, I'm not a fan of UNO just continuing to push malcolm right now, like, I'm literally outed, if you know mafia roles you know what I am, and so like, before I die, can I at least go on malcolm tonight? maf can't kill me right now, like, I guarantee this isn't going to be the case all game, this is literally all I ask for... to not lim malcolm for 1 night here...

Idk what your role is, but I believe you think you can confirm Malcolm. I don't believe you're likely to be able to. And since his claim is so unbelievable I don't think it's useful to risk going into a potential day 4 where Malcolm claims he shot someone who survived and we're no closer to getting any certainty.

[UNOwen]

Unsure if it's too early for me to claim here but given wagon is building momentum and I won't be around overnight, I'm town loyal vigilante. Do with that what you will.

^^^ "hahaha town are going to want to spare me because they think I can be confirmed, I'll let them reach that conclusion themselves so this doesn't look like my plan"

This is exactly it. I can literally prove overnight I am town. If I fail to hit someone it means they are scum. If you don't trust me, you eliminate me the following day, find out I am indeed the vig, and then eliminate scum the following day. It's easy for garnering info.

^^^ "oh shit I need to handhold them through this one"

[UNOwen]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

I will. If preferred I am happy to go on a consensus town-shot if that works and helps at all to be cooperative.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

[UNOwen]

The problem is this is now the second time he's asked town specifically who to shoot which reads as "make sure I have an excuse that no one dies" as scum, and being offensively clueless at best as town. He still hasn't registered at all that he's nonconfirming if town because scum has doctors.

Yes I agree. But also, he's spent two days not using his supposed role despite clearly being aware of its potential utility because he was afraid of hitting a town PR, but now that it's useless and the only way he can be confirmed

is

by hitting town, he's very eager to be given a chance to use it and seemingly not that bothered about the risk of hitting a PR.

[UNOwen]

You understand the difference between vigging someone with the consensus of town and with more info, compared to going on a whim on N1 with little to go on except from the D1 elimination?

"If preferred" <- meaning you were open to shooting without consensus, leaving it up to town to instruct you otherwise.

[UNOwen]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

Well yes, if the town want me to shoot overnight without revealing my target, I am open to doing that. This is not a contradictory or difficult to understand stance.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

[UNOwen]

vote count 2.09

with 15 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2022-07-27 13:15:00).

yeet

Malakittens [5]:

Firebringer, Gamma Emerald, Enchant, Unsure, Vivax

Fredrick A Campbell [4]:

Prince of Paterson, UNOwen, Andante, Lowell

Enchant [1]:

Fredrick A Campbel

Unsure [1]:

Greeting

Firebringer [1]:

geraintm

not voting [3]:

MalcolmTucker, Malakittens, Crescent

Is it still Fred or what? This wagon keeps getting to the end and dying. Let’s do it

VOTE: Fred

...

VOTE: Lowell

Nooo andant eye on the prize

Nevermind I see it.

VOTE: meg

This is an ISO read of someone who wanted to have a fun game but is disappointed to have drawn scum.

Malcolm also a good vote. Chipping at the edges of ideas without ideas.

VOTE: Meg. Here's a good wagon.

Fancy and prince are also scum.

This is pretty attacking from Lowell early on if scum. They were consistently going after Meg right from the start. First one is five posts in.

[UNOwen]

For about the fifth time, scumreads can be wrong, especially D1. I'm not going to apologise for refusing to accidentally vig a doctor or some other important role D1 when they'd have had no chance to claim.

Not going to risk shooting an important role on N1, especially after a scum flip. No way.

Well yes, if the town want me to shoot overnight without revealing my target, I am open to doing that. This is not a contradictory or difficult to understand stance.

Sure I'll risk shooting an important role on N3, np.

You don't see the difference between a scumread on N1 and N3? We have much more info now than before.

You've been saying all day how difficult it's been for you to form any scum reads...

[UNOwen]

If, for some reason, kills do not happen and

MalcolmTucker

is still alive, I will be the first one to organise a wagon against him on Day 5 or Day 6.

Presumably this should read day 4 or day 5, but it's exactly why Malcolm should be the execution today anyway.

I'll give Malakittens some time to claim and if she doesn't I'll hammer.

[UNOwen]

Definitely not unvoting now. Death to Malcolm!

[UNOwen]

No regrets on the Malcolm execution, even though I do think there are some good questions being raised about Malakittens claim.

I think we should decide if it's not better to mass role claim and figure out the setup now.

I'm in favour of a mass claim today.

[UNOwen]

i actually don't like how comfortable people are with just mislims because X is playing bad.
Like okay, but you still voted wrong. We don't move the win condition further just by elimming someone not playing how we want. Sometimes its good for the game but I don't think someone not using power role is different than just like not playing game/being extremely detrimental to the day game.
I mean to be frank ive seen so much worsei n night play so when i see someone just didn't use a role. I am kind of like "well at least malcom didn't shoot andante or something"

That is my low bar

It's more that we needed to preclude any doctor shenanigans. The best he could've done post claim was shoot a townie to confirm himself (not ideal at this stage), the worst was fail to shoot anyone and leave us guessing what happened.

[UNOwen]

So it seems incredibly unlikely that both an even night cop and a N3 cop exist in this game right? Malakittens is surely scum.

And Lowell is definitely town.

[UNOwen]

I still believe it could be helpful to mass claim.

[UNOwen]

there's an N3 cop?

Yes, me. Lowell was my investigation target.

[UNOwen]

Excuse me?! And you believed Malakittens' claim day three because?

Because claiming N3 cop on D3 didn't feel optimal. I thought both Mala and Malcolm were scum anyway, this seemed better.

[UNOwen]

I am more annoyed by checking Lowell who was checked by gunsmith.

Gunsmith with mafia doctor = useless. But I was too attached to my wagon theory, which failed miserably.

[UNOwen]

Maybe I'm an investigation-proof gunless mafia doctor. Someone else should investigate me tonight to be sure.

You can insist you were cleared all you want, but until now you weren't.

[UNOwen]

Sill question, like, really dumb. Why didn't you check mala?

My assumption is that Malakittens is scum and not worth investigating.

For the other questions, I'm not odd night, just night 3 and I didn't bother crumbing.

[UNOwen]

Mass claim: yay or nay?

[UNOwen]

I support yeeting you.

Are you against a mass claim?

[UNOwen]

Hmm ok.

As well as being a N3 cop, I also have a bit of information about the game that's probably useless except in a mass claim context, where it could

potentially

be useful. But I can't promise it would come to anything even then.

[UNOwen]

As well as being a N3 cop, I also have a bit of information about the game that's probably useless except in a mass claim context, where it could

potentially

be useful. But I can't promise it would come to anything even then.

^ Please note the above as a reason to mass claim today. I know I'm saying it won't necessarily come to anything, but I also don't think we lose anything by mass claiming now. If nothing else we can at least fix scum into claims by doing so.

[UNOwen]

Unown you knew here that Mala was claiming even night cop and you didn't even question it then? Or point out you thought it was bunk?
Did you think at the time that both were unbelievable claims?
Why was Mala more believable

Excuse me?! And you believed Malakittens' claim day three because?

Because claiming N3 cop on D3 didn't feel optimal. I thought both Mala and Malcolm were scum anyway, this seemed better.

[UNOwen]

Ehhh more thoughts to really think on. This rambling/spewing thoughts is not helping me sort it all out.

Are you against a mass claim?

[UNOwen]

So can we start the mass claim then?

I'm happy with Lowell choosing the order.

[UNOwen]

I have the fear that you are going to pull something from your ass after all thr claims to help back up your claim. It is genius if you are scum

What sort of plan do you think that could be?

[UNOwen]

VT btw.

Hahahaha, no you aren't.

Full claim: I'm a n2 neapolitan, n3 cop. Unsure was my n2 target and he isn't a VT.

[UNOwen]

That's two scum locked down, we can continue the mass claim then try to find the third (might actually just be Prince after all) or just vote off Unsure/Malakittens and leave the solve to whoever is still alive on day 6. I don't mind either way.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Malakittens

[UNOwen]

I don't think Enchant is likely to be scum, his interactions with Unsure/Malakittens don't look aligned to me.

If Mala's claim is true then her green check on Enchant will be the only case where a PR has helped us win this game. Too bad it's a (in my opinion) scum fake claim.

I think there's a non-zero chance that Enchant is still town after we check if Mala's lying. But if we can afford it, I'd want to elim the slot before ELo.

This in particular looks like a possible scumslip from Unsure, as it seems to assume Malakittens is lying before I had even counterclaimed. Scum plan was probably to set up an Enchant execution post Malakittens flip.

[UNOwen]

If you think Enchant is town, then quick voting Mala without giving a single alternative option to Enchant is exactly the last thing you want to be doing today.

Perhaps, but I'm fine with leaving the thinking to day 6 if people want to do that. My pick for final scum is Prince though.

[UNOwen]

I mean it is true that Mala's behavior with Prince is.. Like the one thing he actually has going for him. Scum is totally screwed if he's scum and gets hammered there, though I would say my unvote in that situation was a predictable outcome.. Assuming I showed up in time for that to matter.

I mean, it's possible it was just a desperate scumplay to at least try to get someone in the town pile. I just don't think that would've actually worked for a poorly placed -1 vote.

Yeah, I guess the question for that one is whether scum would've actually believed Prince was getting hammered there. Looking at those off wagon, I think only Firebringer would vote him before Enchant? And I don't think Firebringer was going to quickhammer. It's possible that Malakittens jumped on to give Prince an excuse to claim prematurely and maybe try to fight back from that point.

Or it could have just been as you say, a doomed attempt to get something back from a Prince execution.

[UNOwen]

Probably only four.

[UNOwen]

I'm fine letting mala continue to do...whatever it is they're doing in this game, it's cute. I still think there's like a 5% chance they're Town.

There isn't even a 5% chance Malakittens is town, come on. I believe Prince is also scum but unless there's a foolproof case against him it makes no sense not to execute Malakittens first.

[UNOwen]

I didn't pay enough attention to compare Enchant to Corwin, but I'm sure if I looked through my past games I'd find times where townies would claim to scum read another player out of defiance rather than a real suspicion. Enchant doesn't look like he's actually trying to sell a case.

[UNOwen]

Okay, having read Crescent's post, I mostly agree with the conclusions. I think there's not really any way from my perspective that Mala isn't scum. I think that Enchant is most likely the partner. Mala obviously should be flipped first. If it isn't Enchant, we'll be at 5p with 1 scum remaining. I think flipping Vivax and Firebringer/Frogsterking wins the game in that situation.

If somehow Mala is town, she should claim her result now, and it makes it possible that Owen is scum. I strongly doubt that to be the case, however.

It's suspicious to me that Prince already has an idea for what to do if it gets to a 3 player endgame. Especially that he wouldn't be worried about geraintm at that point.

I townread geraintm too, but if this game is still ongoing when there are even five players left and I'm still alive I'd definitely want to reevaluate to make sure on that read.

[UNOwen]

Crescent's claimed VT, so geraintm is next.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Prince

No objections from me.

[UNOwen]

Oh and the person I was implying yesterday i wouldn't vote wasn't Owen and after another scanner flip he should full claim ok off I go bye

My last claim was the full claim, no more surprises from me.

[UNOwen]

Enchant fails his one job.

I don't mind rushing the day even though it's not the optimal move because I'd like the game to wrap up today and executing Prince seems likely to do that.

[UNOwen]

gg all except not really g

Though I didn't think it was all that bad for town, this still looked pretty winnable until it went south really badly at the end.
Thanks for hosting Datisi.