Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[fireisredsir]

unless you are somehow mason i guess but i assume thats not the case

[fireisredsir]

I've reread everything I want to. I would like to kill Datisi. However, that seems like it immediately loses us the game if Datisi is town.

I guess it probably doesn't benefit us for me to explain my reasoning.

I would also be fine killing Looker, if that somehow materializes.

what i took this as is you claiming VT. here's why:

from a mason perspective, there could be 2 or 1 mafia in the unclaimed. under an assumption that me/enchant are town, a datisi townflip means that the other 2 unclaimed are mafia and thus the game is easy.

from a vt perspective, there are 2 masons in the unclaimed and 1 mafia. a datisi townflip means that me or enchant are mafia which is bad bc it means that masons will vote you, the VT, instead, and therefore the game is likely to be lost unless you can somehow convince them that me or enchant are the last mafia

so by saying that you felt a datisi townflip loses the game, you are softing VT. there's actually zero benefit to doing this as VT if you're just going to vote datisi anyway, especially when you then go on to say "despite my best efforts, a mason will probably still die". if that was still your top priority, you wouldn't have softed VT

the only possible world where it makes sense to do that is as like a bait as mason and hope that mafia picked up on the fact that you fake softed VT??? which would be kinda nutty lol but props if you did that ig

[fireisredsir]

because implosion was mason and made the call that he was willing to assume me and enchant are town

regardless the point is that the possibility of me or enchant being scum is the thing that makes the game much harder, because current town consensus was assuming us as town

i don't believe that there's any other reason to think that a datisi townflip would immediately lose the game, but you're free to explain your thought process behind that statement if you'd like to

[fireisredsir]

that's fine. i will probably be voting for you since even without that i think you make the most sense as a datisi partner, but i want to give things another look first

to clarify the point further: it doesn't matter if you're assuming me and enchant are town. but for a mason, a datisi townflip doesn't make the game any harder. they know where they want to look for mafia after that. nothing has fundamentally changed. implo clearly had that possibility in mind and had a plan to move forward. even if they have some suspicion of me/enchant, a datisi townflip provides no new information that would make them think the game was immediately lost.

a VT being in the unclaimed, however, would know that the game would be significantly harder to win if datisi flipped town

[fireisredsir]

my case is that it doesn't make sense for you to say that as VT because you have been playing this game very guarded about that sort of thing and there is no benefit to a VT to suddenly throw that away at the finish line when it doesn't actually contribute anything to town wincon to say that unless you are unwilling to vote datisi

there is obvious benefit to saying that as mafia: you look like you're having towny doubt at the final moment, you look like you're thinking about future possibilities from a town mindset, and you might even convince someone that we shouldn't kill datisi there

[fireisredsir]

i can't see why you would soft VT as your only point of discussion, no.

if protecting masons is still your priority, then either talk about some other reason for your doubt or just deal with it tomorrow

if you've already given up on protecting masons, and instead you want to just share your thoughts and discuss whether datisi is the best elim here, then i don't think being coy about it in the way that you did makes sense

[fireisredsir]

im confused how that could possibly be your thought process

in that world would you be thinking that me and enchant are both mafia?

[fireisredsir]

i just struggle to believe that your worry about that possibility would override your desire to protect the masons when stating the worry doesn't really accomplish anything anyway

and you've throughout the game been willing to sacrifice sharing plenty of thoughts with the justification of protecting the masons

[fireisredsir]

would like to hear some actual thoughts from looker before moving forward here

[fireisredsir]

oh. that wasn't really my foregone conclusion tbh

[fireisredsir]

like i think your play yesterday surface level looks... not great, but it would also be kinda throwy as partners with datisi if he isn't even gonna try to stay alive

thats kinda an all in move to get a town elim and then hope somebody messes up in elo

and datisi did not seem on board with that at all

[fireisredsir]

it def could still be you but i don't think you're like guaranteed to be the lim or anything

[fireisredsir]

these music references are way too boomer for me but im sure they're hilarious

[fireisredsir]

im not scum bc ive known the full mason team since the start of d2 and would have 100% killed implo sooner

[fireisredsir]

ive reread some things again and i changed my mind, i don't think i want to hunt on wagon anymore rn

im cool with looking mostly in [george, mala] for now

UNVOTE:

since this post, to be specific

there were times where i considered the possibility of it being Ari/gamma/implo instead

(her 50 followed by 74 was a hilarious accidental crumb, and her 1662 and 1769 made a lot of correct assumptions in a way that seemed like it could be informed)

but def not by the time ari got killed. and i would have always killed implo first anyway

[fireisredsir]

ive reread some things again and i changed my mind, i don't think i want to hunt on wagon anymore rn

i really wanna hear what these ~things~ are

also lol at this, smh datisi

[fireisredsir]

anyway it started when implosion made 1340, i was extremely confused. this is not a post that i would ever expect to see from implosion.

the previous game i played with him was chromavalon (a game where scum wins if at the end they correctly guess who the muses are, which are a group of informed town). he was town and was v careful about this, changing his playstyle, putting a lot of thought into what thoughts he shared and how he shared them to avoid doing anything that might out a muse (and he was one of them).

so seeing him just casually say this was super weird, bc the obvious next thought i would expect him to have is "maybe george is a mason and that's why he isn't getting as much pressure". he even kinda hints at that with "not sure if it's a useful question to ask". so then why tf is he posting that at all?? i did not understand why he would post that as town

and as scum, there's also no reason to put it in thread. he would be aware that it looks like mason fishing, and if he believes the thought he would just keep it to the scum PT.

i only realized while rereading post-penguin-flip that there is a situation where he might post it, which is if he's scum partners with georgebailey. that way, he's lightly hinting that georgebailey could be a mason and thus shouldn't be pushed, but also on the surface it's a decent partner interaction to have in the ISO in case george ends up getting flipped.

however then i realized while writing about that possibility that he could be a mason without georgebailey, and it was some sort of gambit type thing to see how people respond, or he just wasn't worried about the implications of what he was saying since he knew george isn't a mason. and that possibility was enough to make me not want to go into all of that reasoning, but i still thought he was scum, so i posted 1609, and wanted to hunt on wagon. then his response was good, ari had some good thoughts about the wagon analysis, and i realized some of the weirdness i had seen in multiple places could actually be mason-indicative rather than scum-indicative

i also think he kind of outed as mason to me by not questioning why i suddenly backed off him when he had me as someone he might be suspicious of

so anyway i kill implo n2 10 times out of 10 and i also don't have any reason as scum with datisi to beg him to stop hunting on the penguin wagon d2 (i was pretty sure he was town at that point, oops, i could have been more subtle)

[fireisredsir]

i guess i could do an obligatory reassess on enchant but ive kind of already locked them as town in my mind. implo was confident in it as well

[fireisredsir]

what makes you think looker over ss

[fireisredsir]

idk, ill be happier if we win today instead of in elo

[fireisredsir]

the short, easy reason why it's s_s is that datisi started d2 with his whole "we should hunt on wagon" push bc he was the only scum on wagon and knew that he could outlive most of the rest of the people on it (except that half of them ended up being masons)

ari is also still right that the vp kill makes less sense from a scumteam with 2 people on the penguin wagon

[fireisredsir]

std did kinda revert to scum!std when he got busy but idk maybe busy!std just looks a lot like scum!std

i still think before that he was very towny

[fireisredsir]

the biggest thing was a gut hunch on the first few pages but this post reminds me of how you were in that one game we just played where we were mafia together as you tried to get townie points. this post looks really forced and you tried to soften the blow by saying it was forced but i don't buy it at the present

idk if scum std enters with this (about datisi) as his first real opinion of the game on his scumbuddy and then drops it like immediately cause he kept reading and thought datisi was towny later

just kinda seems like he would be more worried about his trajectory there

[fireisredsir]

datisi also spent a lot of time arguing with me (around 1637 and 1793) about how this felt to him like coalition std (when they were scum together) and that seems kinda wild to me that he would do that if they were also scum together here

[fireisredsir]

there's some interactions with both of the slots that feel unpartnery. I already mentioned the one where ss called out datisi for mason fishing. but i think there's more for std

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: something_smart

[fireisredsir]

d1 vulture also feels less partnered with penguin/datisi than s_s does

[fireisredsir]

i thought it basically was claimed already but i guess not officially

[fireisredsir]

SS claimed VT and looker started the day resigned to her death

[fireisredsir]

presumably either they make sense as mason partners with the currently flipped masons, or they have a crumb system that they can point out, or both

[fireisredsir]

also nobody would cc them because if they did then its a 1v1 and we can just flip both of them and win

[fireisredsir]

i am always convincable

who do you think is scum and why

[fireisredsir]

i mean you survived until now so that seems pretty good to me

ari thought you were scum until she got convinced that you were mason and then hard defended you for it which kept you alive longer

you have stated before a lack of faith in your own scumplay abilities and so this playstyle seems like a reasonable approach from that perspective. it protects you from getting eliminated early, it prevents you from having strong associatives bc you didn't really give many opinions throughout the game, and you may be able to guess who is mason or VT based on how they interact with your approach

and yea if you're scum it didn't work well enough, because here we are. but that happens sometimes, i don't think that's a very convincing argument for why you can't be scum

[fireisredsir]

yea i agree i don't think it's a very good approach. that doesn't make me think you're town tho. the alternative fmpov is looker and i think her approach makes even less sense as scum

and yesterday you were VLA and had 4 posts in the span of a week. i don't understand your argument here

you're saying if you were scum you "could have been appearing to do something" more than you actually did?

[fireisredsir]

hut? thoughts?

[fireisredsir]

it would be pretty funny if i had it wrong after writing that out about how i knew the masons

[fireisredsir]

hut? thoughts?

You willing to elim Looker instead? For me it's either SS or Looker.

yea those are my two options. i think it's SS tho

[fireisredsir]

It doesn't make any sense for a me/Dats team to bus like that. I begrudgingly admitted I wanted to kill Datisi only after he was E-1, and even then, I left a pretty big out that I had to wait for fire and implosion to shut down. That's not me looking to get towncred off a flip I know is red.

Furthermore, a me/Dats team wouldn't want Dats to die that day-- we would much rather it be me. The only reason I was shielded so long is because I technically could have been a mason, and we'd know that would run out. Once that did, I would have little chance of winning this very endgame that we find ourselves in. If we wanted to bus, I could have helped Datisi put together a much more convincing case on me-- including pointing out reasons why I was unlikely to actually be a mason and thus I didn't deserve to be shielded. I know Datisi pretty well, we're both pretty tactical thinkers, I think we could have set that up in a way that would be pretty convincing.

Not to mention, he's just a much stronger scum player than me, especially lategame. My scumgame pretty reliably falls apart around D3-4. His scumgame remains solid and he has a lot of strong wins to back it up (most notably the championship game on EM); he only died here due to PoE, because scum allowed the possible-mason shielding to happen.

all of this is written as if you had any control over datisi dying. which... you didn't, at all. it was not a conscious choice by the scum team to sacrifice datisi. implo had reasons to suspect him, so did i, hut agreed with implo. that's 3 town leading the push onto datisi. it didn't really matter who hammered bc once that's what me and implo wanted i don't think the day was ending anywhere else

i do think that if you're scum together then you wanted to either win in 5p or have you die before datisi. i just don't think you really ever had that option

i think that at the start of d4 you thought that enchant was the elim. datisi still seemed to think that i wanted to elim there. and i did, until enchant started being the towniest ive ever seen enchant be. and d4 just progressed in a way where you weren't there, and town gradually headed more and more towards an elim on datisi that he probably thought he could argue his way out of, and by the time it seemed most likely, he didn't really have anywhere else to go. if he had pivoted into trying to bus you, it probably wouldn't have worked and also probably would have only ended up hurting your chances. i really just don't see much of anything that either if you could have done there. and tbh it's probably a bit tiring for him to have to try to solo carry a game

and ok, let's say it's not you. how do his actions make sense as scum with looker? its literally all of the same issues. so the only place where it does make sense that he would be willing to die there is if scum is in me/enchant and just trust that masons keep us locktowned. but enchant killing implo doesn't really make sense bc implo said that he was like 100% on locktowning enchant. i also just kinda believe enchant when they say that they thought std/looker slot is obvious mason lol

[fireisredsir]

And one other note that I don't expect to help but I don't see why I shouldn't say it-- I am often read very unfavorably by people who don't know me, because they don't understand/like my playstyle. Whereas, people who know me better can sometimes falsely townread me for things that I can replicate as scum. Obviously scum had other agendas with NK's, but scum have consistently killed off people who know me and left me alive with only people who don't. That is not something I do deliberately. I would always kill hutmeil over implosion last night (and yes, I knew it was you two, no other team makes sense knowing that I am not a mason).

i don't think my read on you has much to do with not understanding or not liking your playstyle?

i also just straight up do not believe that you would kill hut over implo lol. implo was clear town leader and without him we're kinda struggling to be cohesive. him knowing you wasn't going to stop him from voting you here, and if anything it gives his vote more weight

[fireisredsir]

oh i didn't notice hut had voted tbh

[fireisredsir]

scum already know who the masons are here like 99 times out of 100

and its good to claim before elo if you don't have a strong crumbling system bc that means that any counterclaim can be resolved

[fireisredsir]

hello i am in pain

[fireisredsir]

ill deal with this tomorrow

pls don't yolovote, whichever of you is town

i will prob stick with The Plan but i have DOUBTS and FEARS

[fireisredsir]

Why you fear yolovote if you are almost out of danger being target of one?

From your POV, me/Looker must be mafia and voting each other is good.

two factors

1) you're both a little bit... unpredictable. idk what you'll do. which, btw, is why i would never willingly set up this elo if i were scum here. i like to have people in elo who i can predict what they'll do

2) if you just immediately vote each other then the mafia doesn't have to even pretend to try to solve the game. i would like to see that happen first

[fireisredsir]

and speaking of, looker, ive read your past games and you are in fact capable of actually playing the game when replacing into a town slot. so if you are town, please, do so, bc the current approach is not doing anything to make me think you're town

[fireisredsir]

i looked at several and as town you would usually actually read things and have opinions and try to progress the game and solve things

as maf you would often just kinda do nothing

what "frustration of this obvious set-up" are you referring to?

[fireisredsir]

enchant, what made you think looker/std was blatant mason, and what made you think someone was shielding me from elimination earlier (that made you think I was either maf or mason)?

[fireisredsir]

ok, idk why it matters, but a few that i looked at were
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84025
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=83533
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81560
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=88158

how exactly would you have been set up here? who did the setting up? the masons' decision was that me and enchant were town, and that ss/you should be eliminated after datisi. your own play didn't really factor into that at all. there's no actions that anyone has taken that would lead to you being "the fall guy"

[fireisredsir]

idk why you need to read 3k posts to like... play the game at all

you could read a few datisi posts. or my posts. or enchant's posts. or literally do anything

[fireisredsir]

the annoying thing is that im not even that confident bc i feel like i have lots of reasons why looker slot doesn't make sense to me as scum

but maybe they just played the associatives well

datisi feeling resigned to death could come from
1) actually feeling like the game was lost, bc he is partnered with looker and in that case the game is lost
2) wanting me to think that he felt like the game was lost, when actually he's partnered with enchant and enchant is gonna carry the game
3) wanting me to think that he's faking resignation, leading me to think it's enchant, when actually it's just looker still

leaning towards #3 tbh

[fireisredsir]

maybe SS was a changeling

[fireisredsir]

hmm ok rereading and ig this could be scum vulture. i thought the honesty about not feeling the vibes/energy to post was towny but it might actually not be

[fireisredsir]

datisi voting vulture in 440 but then doing like basically zero serious follow up pressure or attempts to sort there is like really bad actually

[fireisredsir]

he goes a little stronger than i would expect on the chainsaw on hut for vulture but maybe that's intentional

[fireisredsir]

None of those games were nearly as long as this one. When I replaced in or even when they finished.

ok but you don't have to read the whole game it takes like 10 minutes to skim a bit and throw out some thoughts

[fireisredsir]

posting thoughts, even if they're wrong, is useful for helping other people read you correctly if you are town

[fireisredsir]

how exactly would you have been set up here? who did the setting up? the masons' decision was that me and enchant were town, and that ss/you should be eliminated after datisi. your own play didn't really factor into that at all. there's no actions that anyone has taken that would lead to you being "the fall guy"

alternatively you could answer these questions

[fireisredsir]

whether that (my last post) carries on into "so hutmeil is more likely town based on The Wagons", i don't know

the composition of the wagon on him is definitely worse than on mala. i don't think george's or fire's votes are a possible bus. penguin's could be. so. maybe statistically slightly +town, considering i don't know the alignments of the first two.

im probably just sleepy but this really looks like datisi is saying that he doesn't know george or my alignments, implying that he does know penguin's lol

idk how else to interpret that tbh

[fireisredsir]

god std's entrance is so good

major props if he was scum that is like pure town energy right there

[fireisredsir]

ig its believable that he would be having fun theatreing with datisi

that sounds like it would be fun

[fireisredsir]

george is so scummy too

[fireisredsir]

oh yeah, another thing i wanted to say now that invictus is over - i am less sure of my townread on ydra/std. i thought i used to be good at reading her, but as that game has just showed me, no i am not lmfao

so that slot will probably be due to a re-eval at *some point* when i find the willpower to do things in this game again

kinda weird post to make as scum

not sure what it means for that slot's alignment, hmm

[fireisredsir]

ok i scumread george, vulture, and looker

i townread enchant and std

maybe the replacements got shuffled up somewhere down the line

[fireisredsir]

im town

[fireisredsir]

im still reading

[fireisredsir]

its true tho he was really towny until he got busy :<

and its 100% true that he was very scum std while busy

while reading ive noticed that most of the times where I felt him being towny were actually just him engaging directly with datisi. so maybe they just were really comfortable doing theatre with each other and had fun doing it and made that a focus

[fireisredsir]

i know hut was trying to say BREAKING DAWN PART 1 but the thread was locked before they could and i tr them for that

how can scum make this post tho

its so good

[fireisredsir]

im still laughing at it

[fireisredsir]

yes its a joke i don't think its actually difficult for him to make it

[fireisredsir]

i got to the part where datisi is saying std looks like coalition std

still feels weird to me for that to be partnered but i can also see the angle of "please explain to me why my scumbuddy is actually town" and then being like "ok those reasons are not bad, actually"

[fireisredsir]

the reason its weird is that i feel like it looks a lot like tmi for datisi to be like "yes this feels exactly the same as when std bussed in coalition and also i didn't really read his posts there" because its a very surface level take where scum would know that objectively it is similar and that maybe to an outside observer it doesn't actually look that way at all, so continuing to insist that it is looks kinda weird

and i just kinda think datisi would feel self-conscious about making that kind of point??? but maybe not? idk

[fireisredsir]

while reading ive noticed that most of the times where I felt him being towny were actually just him engaging directly with datisi. so maybe they just were really comfortable doing theatre with each other and had fun doing it and made that a focus

it really feels not at all similar to coalition tho, rereading their fighting with each other there. std felt so lifeless in that

[fireisredsir]

it's believable tho that pengu was just like "yea bus me" whereas in coalition datisi did not really want to die there

[fireisredsir]

datisi with just zero progression whatsoever on george and then voting mala in 1834 to tie the wagons at 3 is just absolutely awful and i can't tell if it's bc all wagons were on town and he didn't care how it looked or if it's bc it's actually as bad as it looks

[fireisredsir]

datisi with just zero progression whatsoever on george and then voting mala in 1834 to tie the wagons at 3 is just absolutely awful and i can't tell if it's bc all wagons were on town and he didn't care how it looked or if it's bc it's actually as bad as it looks

him outsourcing his read on you to implo while knowing that implo believes himself capable of finding you as scum is probably not very partnered

[fireisredsir]

he did give up on std scum really easily and never really went back there or explained why, even tho std got significantly scummier starting d3

[fireisredsir]

i think most of his d2 feels p uninformed in multiple ways and he would have to be intentionally making the choice to play suboptimally for the purposes of faking that which seems high-risk to me. maybe he'd go for it but i don't see why it would be necessary

oh yea, not really relevant anymore but this was about how i didn't think he would really want to push for a lim on wagon when it seemed like all the masons were on it and he probably wouldn't really want to be the one to push a mason just for the sake of looking uninformed about where the masons were, since it was very unlikely to result in an actual elim

[fireisredsir]

i am very Concerned about page 101 and datisi not letting things move towards enchant

[fireisredsir]

ig it does benefit him if he's with std bc im basically saying "enchant flipping town will convince me that i have things wrong"

whereas flipping andante still leaves open the option that i push enchant/ss the next day

[fireisredsir]

and enchant flipping scum actually would probably make the next two elims andante and ss, at which point datisi survives to 3p elo

[fireisredsir]

I am like lowkey kind of paranoid that fire/andante/enchant are all LHF town and the reason this game feels slow is because scum are very well positioned and don't have to do anything but coast to win

this is probably just right

[fireisredsir]

well we'll probably find out if that's the case tomorrow based on the flips

im slightly worried about that possibility too but like, that's why i want to flip enchant. either im right on my poe and enchant is scum, or someone is being very tricksy and flipping enchant will tell us which one is the case

and like i say this right after

which gives scum datisi a lot of reason not to flip enchant even if enchant is town

[fireisredsir]

Unpopular opinion.

BOTH Fire and Andante is Town somehow...?

ok and you want to vote out Datisi in the world where you/fire/andante are all town?

Mmm.

Yeah?

this sequence of posts tho... and the fact that this then led to datisi slipping into manipulative mode to stop this from happening and keep things on andante which led to me suspecting him

it just seems like datisi started to panic a little bit when he woke up and saw this going on and i don't see why he has that reaction if enchant is his scumpartner here

[fireisredsir]

looker also still hasn't even voted lol

[fireisredsir]

it is still surprising to me that datisi would both kill on wagon and also try to push on wagonstart of d2 if his partner was on wagon

but it could be wifom or maybe they genuinely somehow did think vp was mason

idk im not gonna bet the game on that but it is strange to me

[fireisredsir]

pushing off-wagon immediately is easy. sticking to my guns about eliminating on-wagon is easy (either i'm not listened to and the town starts eating each other, or i am listened to and confusion arises as townflips happens and the low-hanging-fruit is alive).

this feels like trying to fake tmi that his partner wasn't on wagon

[fireisredsir]

I say all this, but before you voted, I thought it was fire

why did you think that?

[fireisredsir]

just hammer you? but i can't, looker hasn't even voted yet

[fireisredsir]

im just confused why datisi accepted townbinning you and never really started paranoiaing on me

i don't get what his plan was

i feel like there was an escape path there

[fireisredsir]

i don't think im ever voting you here tbh i will just feel like its wrong if I don't heavily consider it

[fireisredsir]

i would have liked if looker decided to play the game, as either alignment, but oh well

[fireisredsir]

sighhh

[fireisredsir]

Unpopular opinion.

BOTH Fire and Andante is Town somehow...?

ok and you want to vote out Datisi in the world where you/fire/andante are all town?

Mmm.

Yeah?

this sequence of posts tho... and the fact that this then led to datisi slipping into manipulative mode to stop this from happening and keep things on andante which led to me suspecting him

it just seems like datisi started to panic a little bit when he woke up and saw this going on and i don't see why he has that reaction if enchant is his scumpartner here

i think that this is probably the tipping point for me fwiw

i just think this points way too strongly to datisi not being partnered with enchant

and even if there's some stuff that doesn't really make sense to me strategically if datisi is partnered with std slot, it's still believable that it could happen

[fireisredsir]

Really.

I don't want lose to Looker.
And you probably ALSO don't want to lose to Looker.

the thing is that im really strongly getting flashbacks to the "whoever you would feel worse about it if you voted them and they flipped town, is the correct vote" thing

i would not feel bad at all about flipping looker town here

i don't think it's enough for me not to vote there but it is in the back of my mind

[fireisredsir]

as far a scummy actions go, std slot has a lot more of them

[fireisredsir]

looker does also seem like the kind of player who would try to go all in on the "im not even trying to look town" approach as scum

[fireisredsir]

oh well

VOTE: Looker

[fireisredsir]

i think you're more likely to say that as town tbh

[fireisredsir]

im not trusting anything until i see the flip

[fireisredsir]

we did it

[fireisredsir]

the funny thing is, originally my plan for townreadign hut was gonna be "ye i thought he mason"

but after i posted that sob story about not caring about masons, i realized i cannot do that

so at like 2 am last night i opened hut's iso and was just panic scrolling through it trying to find something i can townread him for

this was exactly why i asked lol