Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[furtiveglance]

Hi, man's town n that.

[furtiveglance]

Are you guys fighting already? Stop fighting guys. Or let me join in.

[furtiveglance]

Hi, man's town n that.

HEY if you're going to play while possessed then sign up with your demon as a hydra like the rest of us do

Man's not possessed.

[furtiveglance]

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

[furtiveglance]

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

What do you think of the rest of its posts?

frankly most of it confuses me and it seems like lots of weird rationalizations. unless this user is normally on edge all the time, it looks bad

Hmm...I suppose that's fair. But I'm not so sure that "looks bad" is the same as "looks scummy." For instance, I think it looks bad that you're shading Inutile for superficial reasons. But do you think that's scummy?

Town

[furtiveglance]

I should really open with "Man's town" more often then HUH

[furtiveglance]

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

this is the kind of nonsensical thing that makes you read as town tbh

But seriously....this is kind of increasing my scumread on you. Why don't you talk about inutile, do you still think they're mafia?

[furtiveglance]

I had this one improv teacher who was pretty cool who taught us that the hardest lesson in improv is to learn to accept gifts.

Why are you scumreading Ghandhi? Bit of a non-sequitur I know but I don't want to get into your improv stuff.

[furtiveglance]

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

I'd like if you could elaborate on your townreads.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts on 83 as well? I really do not see what you're seeing there

I missed this intially because I posted right after. I townread you for the progression on inutile, it looked natural. Frogsterking is making a lot of reads early on which I usually find towny. Inutile and Hoppip both just seem to have an innocent kind of energy, I can see their approaches to the game being from a town perspective.

83 interested me because DeltaWave says Hoppip is acting sus after their interaction in 82, in which Hoppip said DeltaWave 'shaded Inutile for superficial reasons', which is what it looked like to me as well. Hence I called it a delayed omgus.

[furtiveglance]

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

this is the kind of nonsensical thing that makes you read as town tbh

But seriously....this is kind of increasing my scumread on you. Why don't you talk about inutile, do you still think they're mafia?

that's funny, because you're looking more like town to me the more we talk. I'd say there's a decent 75% chance that inutile is mafia. signal-to-noise ratio is very bad, trying too hard w/r/t townclaiming, etc. reminds me of how I used to play a mafioso when I was new, very frantic. the 25% exception is if this user just plays like this all the time but I do not know the relevant meta.

btw, someone (I forgot who - it's a page or so back) misunderstood why I was sussing inutile. it wasn't because mafia was plural or anything. it's that the whole "let's come together as town, I'm one of you, let's get those evil mafias" is a sus thing to say overall, especially early game. maybe later on when there are some flips or lots of evidence that's a decent thing to say but combined with everything else, inutile just seems like a mafioso on a sugar high.

I just thought Inutile was excited about playing, that's the vibe I got.

[furtiveglance]

Alright, caught up. Stuff following;

I actually think you've got me here and that everything you're saying in 53 is true.

I have three reasons mainly for not outing the scum slot yet:

• I want them to post more before they become alarmed so that it will be easier to look for their partners on later days.
  
  I want them to participate in my survey start and if I out my scum read on them first they probably won't want to do that.
  
  I want to give other players a chance to find them without me spoiling it.

I can tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm using spatial working memory to identify where to look rather than verbal working memory.

A few things here, first regarding 51;

1) Why would you trust a town reads reads so early into a game?
2) This feels like an attempt to pocket Ausuka

As for 58, this is a bad post in general. The first point about not wanting scum to know you're scum reading them - at this point about 5 players had posted anything of note, you were one of them and you town locked the other two (possibly three?) so there really weren't many players left who it could have been.

Other two points are fluff, especially third. Unless you're looking for potential mindmelds, but meh, not a fan of this at all.

VOTE: Furtive

Serious vote?

frankly most of it confuses me and it seems like lots of weird rationalizations. unless this user is normally on edge all the time, it looks bad

Just walk me through your thought process here? Most of the posts confuse you (why is that scummy?) but you understand enough to say that their rationalising is weird? You either understand or you don't, it can't be both. Can you show some of their weird rationalising and explain why it's weird?

Bonsoir i be Eiralox and im here for the synth apocalypse.

Frogster and Mohab are lock town, we won't be voting there.

VOTE: Nuclear Ghandi

this is scum. guillotine asap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaGAk07qgf8

Well, you're seeing the game at the opposite end of the spectrum to me so we probably need to talk. All three of these are bad.

Mohab are lock town,

Explain please.

Happy to take the lock town read on yourself? Do you think you have been that townie?

Hi.

VOTE: Nuclear Gandhi

Serious vote?

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

We're viewing the game almost identically, I like this. Just Frog being the outlier.

I'd also like Greeting to elaborate on their reads I guess

VOTE: furtiveglance

I like this best for now

Hi Ausuka, I think you're town and this is a bad vote. Change it please?

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

this is the kind of nonsensical thing that makes you read as town tbh

This makes no sense at all and further intensifies my scum read on you.

Once I saw Eir and Greeting both voted Ghandi I interpreted that as a sign that something was wrong. I reflected on why they may have done that. I realized that Ghandi is attempting to aggressively manipulate as many players as possible and that my initial Townread on them was naive. I believe Ghandi is either a manipulative Townie or a scum slot. In other words, I don't trust Ghandi regardless of their alignment, and I believe their alignment in this case may be scum, because even though it may be NAI for them to be manipulative, the way they're being manipulative in this game doesn't help them to collect AI information about other players.

Why do Eir and Greeting influence your read here? They've barely done anything.

Can you show examples of Ghandi being manipulative please?

I am happy that BBT is now voting with me, but I don't townread this post at all. I've found that responding to other people's reads/comments and following up like this is one of the easiest things to do as mafia, because a lot of the time town players' reads/comments on the game don't make a lot of sense and you can look towny as scum by criticising that.

[furtiveglance]

UNVOTE: Furtive

I had the same question as him for Frog which I TR him for.

Did I ask Frogsterking a question that you wanted to ask him, or did you want to ask me a question?

[furtiveglance]

I just thought Inutile was excited about playing, that's the vibe I got.

Have you played with inutile before?

I've played with similar players.

[furtiveglance]

I checked the past few Mini Normal 13 player setups and it seems like the norm is 10:3 with a few power roles.

[furtiveglance]

Vote: Inutile

I am just on the wagon, trying to lynch some rando early on good strat

How is this town? Eliminating some rando.....that's a low chance of success. Plus the use of 'just' - it's a minimiser. Mohab doesn't want to be looked at too closely for bandwagoning, and justifies it pre-emptively.

[furtiveglance]

I have my reasons. No one's going to vote Mohab. Ghandi is still blatant scum. looking for the partners.

Do you want to share those reasons? Or at least invent some?

[furtiveglance]

Here are some reads of mine.

Consensus (or close to consensus) reads I have:

Frogsterking, Ausuka, Inutile, Hoppip Town

Reads that aren't consensus (I think):

Nuclear Ghandhi Town, Mohab sus, DeltaWave sus

i would rather this not continue to detract from us finding mafias

This has big "how do you do fellow kids" energy

VOTE: Inutile

I sus DeltaWave for this, and I think their delayed omgus style interaction with hoppip (83) also is mafia.

VOTE: DeltaWave

I'd like if you could elaborate on your townreads.

Can you elaborate on your thoughts on 83 as well? I really do not see what you're seeing there

I missed this intially because I posted right after. I townread you for the progression on inutile, it looked natural. Frogsterking is making a lot of reads early on which I usually find towny. Inutile and Hoppip both just seem to have an innocent kind of energy, I can see their approaches to the game being from a town perspective.

83 interested me because DeltaWave says Hoppip is acting sus after their interaction in 82, in which Hoppip said DeltaWave 'shaded Inutile for superficial reasons', which is what it looked like to me as well. Hence I called it a delayed omgus.

Ok, the townreads don't do a lot for me but to be fair it is very early in the game, so

I don't think hoppip was really calling Delta suspicious in post 82. He seemed to be saying that Delta's point is bad but he's not necessarily scum for it. In any case, I'm still not really sure what you mean and why you find it suspicious - it's only one post after so not really delayed, and anyway don't you think town could suspect someone who they're in some sort of confrontation with? The idea of 'delayed omgus' just feels off to me honestly.

Ok, you're right that delayed omgus isn't the right term. It's a knee-jerk reaction nonetheless, it felt to me that DeltaWave didn't want to allow Hoppip to put a bit of sus on them without getting the last word. As to whether or not Hoppip did put sus on DeltaWave, I would argue the answer is yes, whether intentional or otherwise. They said that DeltaWave 'looked bad' to them. So I read into that a bit, I thought DeltaWave looked worse from the whole interaction. I understand your issue with buzzwords like 'omgus', I have the same thing. But in this case I thought it was notable that DeltaWave didn't let it slide, they said they would respond later but made the point of saying that hoppip was being 'somewhat sus'.

[furtiveglance]

I have my reasons. No one's going to vote Mohab. Ghandi is still blatant scum. looking for the partners.

Do you want to share those reasons? Or at least invent some?

Im not sharing. And i'm starting to think you and ghandi are together. I don't like toffee's entrance or wrong read on frogster but I can still sort of see town there. But you? Toffee's defense of Ghandi is blatant, yours isn't and that wearies me.

Is it not blatant? I was quite clear that I townread them, I suppose it's just an unepxlained read. Then again, Toffee (as you call him) hasn't explained his read on Gandhi either. What makes his read more blatant than mine?

[furtiveglance]

I have my reasons. No one's going to vote Mohab. Ghandi is still blatant scum. looking for the partners.

Do you want to share those reasons? Or at least invent some?

Im not sharing. And i'm starting to think you and ghandi are together. I don't like toffee's entrance or wrong read on frogster but I can still sort of see town there. But you? Toffee's defense of Ghandi is blatant, yours isn't and that wearies me.

Another thing - I don't get the refusal to share. This game is about co-operation. If you repeatedly refuse to talk you're transgressing, which may get you a sanction. And 3 sanctions is a full desadulation. And I might vote you for the simple crime of not talking.

[furtiveglance]

I said defense, not reads. im not keen on repeating myself.

Don't think BBT really hard defended Gandhi any more than I did either. Why do you want to make a point of distinguishing us when there is no real difference?

[furtiveglance]

Ok, you're right that delayed omgus isn't the right term. It's a knee-jerk reaction nonetheless, it felt to me that DeltaWave didn't want to allow Hoppip to put a bit of sus on them without getting the last word. As to whether or not Hoppip did put sus on DeltaWave, I would argue the answer is yes, whether intentional or otherwise. They said that DeltaWave 'looked bad' to them. So I read into that a bit, I thought DeltaWave looked worse from the whole interaction. I understand your issue with buzzwords like 'omgus', I have the same thing. But in this case I thought it was notable that DeltaWave didn't let it slide, they said they would respond later but made the point of saying that hoppip was being 'somewhat sus'

Do you disagree that town often suspect people who suspect them? I feel like you're pushing a scum!Delta possibility without really considering the other side of things. Like, there is indeed a world where Delta decided to scumread hoppip because he misinterpreted their post as a scumread and wanted to push back against it, but I don't see why you think it's likely, which I was hoping to get you to explain because I think it's a stretchy read.

Again you make a valid point. I'm not locking in Deltawave as mafia though as you seem to imply, I'm just sussing + voting them. Fairly standard stuff in this kind of game. Yes, I could be charitable and play devil's advocate for every single player I give a read on, but it would be a longer and less interesting game, and I probably wouldn't be saying much either way, just going: "Could be town or mafia here, tough to say" about everyone. A read is a read, and I vote my scumreads. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm choosing to push this scum!Delta possibility, as you say, because I want them to be voted out, because I sus them. It all makes sense from my end.

[furtiveglance]

I said defense, not reads. im not keen on repeating myself.

Don't think BBT really hard defended Gandhi any more than I did either. Why do you want to make a point of distinguishing us when there is no real difference?

cos ur scum with gandhi and toffee isnt. this post proves it.

[furtiveglance]

How to put an image in a post

[furtiveglance]

I'm aware, and I'm not as confident about this as I would be if you had made such a read later in the game. But I'm just saying it doesn't seem like your read on Delta came from a genuine thought process; if I'm mafia here and Delta is town I would probably want to vote Delta here, he feels like an easier push than other people who have been present so far. So when I feel like you decided he's scum and then made up the reasons it's concerning to me.

I didn't do that, it was an authentic read I made. The term I used wasn't accurate, and I get the sense that the term I used is partly why you don't trust my read. As for your point about easy pushes, that's just speculation. At the time of its conception my scumread of DeltaWave was completely original, with BBT agreeing later. Besides, that argument assumes Town!Delta in its very logic.

[furtiveglance]

I'm aware, and I'm not as confident about this as I would be if you had made such a read later in the game. But I'm just saying it doesn't seem like your read on Delta came from a genuine thought process; if I'm mafia here and Delta is town I would probably want to vote Delta here, he feels like an easier push than other people who have been present so far. So when I feel like you decided he's scum and then made up the reasons it's concerning to me.

I didn't do that, it was an authentic read I made. The term I used wasn't accurate, and I get the sense that the term I used is partly why you don't trust my read. As for your point about easy pushes, that's just speculation. At the time of its conception my scumread of DeltaWave was completely original, with BBT agreeing later. Besides, that argument assumes Town!Delta in its very logic.

Edit: I see you acknowledged that it assumes Town!Delta

[furtiveglance]

I acknowledge that, but I think even if other people hadn't really pushed there yet a scum player would likely realise there's room to push him without much pushack. I suppose it's not a particularly productive argument to be having at this stage.

I was about to respond that I don't have an internal 'is this player an easy mislim' filter, but I realised mid-thought that I actually do, and categorised Gandhi and Hoppip as such earlier this game. DeltaWave didn't seem that way to me.

[furtiveglance]

I should really open with "Man's town" more often then HUH

Ok so reads list:

Juice: sus
BlueBloodedToffee: sus
DeltaWave: sus af
furitiveking: sus af
furitiveglance: sus
greeting: susy
hutmeil: town af
Asuka: sus
hoppip: sus
Eiralox: town probably
inutile: neutral
mohab500: ?
Nuclear ghandi: town af

What an honour to be labelled 'sus' rather than 'sus af'.

[furtiveglance]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

[furtiveglance]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

I think this post is scummy - part of it is just that it feels a bit slimy? But I'm particular I don't get the eiralox read and I think the push on Juice is opportunistic and unlikely to lead to much while being a seemingly safe route for scum - I think town would be more likely to expand on the BBT read or push Eiralox harder since it's more likely to generate AI content at this stage

You don't think Juice can defend themself?

[furtiveglance]

I'm starting to think furtive is likelier scum than delta? esp. if, as my previous redundant now instated faux maneuver averred, furtive and gandhi are are scum together:

Agreeing with town! Delta and shifting the vote to juice is a great possible way to indirectly divert from the gandhi wagon(while furtive also shades eira, who started that wagon).

So I mean........ Delta is wrong, delta is defensive as fuck, delta is misrepping me bad, delta was very irritating and dodgy and illogical last night but, and meh i havent done the iso shtick cos I got a life, I can feel all those irregularities coming from town. Furtive? Rats but that slot just scumpings me on an instinct level, even tho they also feel green at the same time? paradox? maybe. But I think RE: Juice delta talking and furtive voting convinces me that scum is likelier in furtive than delta..... maybe........ too early for me. imma watch these two, something's whack.

Hoppip voting Delta is a very very interesting development.................. i'll post when I post/

Maybe we're not gonna get on this game, that's fine. I'm not sure if getting into it with you is the best use of my posts this game.

[furtiveglance]

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

I think this post is scummy - part of it is just that it feels a bit slimy? But I'm particular I don't get the eiralox read and I think the push on Juice is opportunistic and unlikely to lead to much while being a seemingly safe route for scum - I think town would be more likely to expand on the BBT read or push Eiralox harder since it's more likely to generate AI content at this stage

You don't think Juice can defend themself?

I feel like this was meant to be a sarcastic comment to imply I'm defending Juice when I shouldn't be but I unironically think this

I'm feeling a little disillusioned about this - if you list the criteria that make someone sus, and then list the criteria that make someone 'an easy target' (or at least the popular idea of one) - I think it's the same list, isn't it?

[furtiveglance]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

I'm tired of being told some players are too scummy to be pushed. I want to reward players who try.

[furtiveglance]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

I'm tired of being told some players are too scummy to be pushed. I want to reward players who try.

Ok, that's not what I'm saying but go ahead, I can't stop you but you're not going to stop me scumreading your play either

I disagree that they're unreadable, I read their posting as scum. I'm townreading quite a few players, so why not vote a low content slot?

[furtiveglance]

This game feels very bleh right now.

BBT talk to me where are you at

Why don't you vote Juice, it will get a bit of momentum going.

[furtiveglance]

I disagree. I mean, it's certainly reasonable to not townread Juice, but I think having them as your top scumread this early is just safe and boring. They are borderline unreadable at this stage. Later we might have more content, a new player in the slot, whatever.

I'm tired of being told some players are too scummy to be pushed. I want to reward players who try.

Ok, that's not what I'm saying but go ahead, I can't stop you but you're not going to stop me scumreading your play either

I disagree that they're unreadable, I read their posting as scum. I'm townreading quite a few players, so why not vote a low content slot?

I was out today. I'll be able to post more this time tomorrow. In short, Deltawave has been giving some good stuff and I quite like it, enough to unvote. I think Eiralox looks worse from their back and forth and I think the "I faked a read to test reactions" is easily faked and not amazing townplay in any case. BBT is a bit sus but not enough to vote yet. I'll vote Juice because they laughed about being sussed for RVS or something and it was weird.

VOTE: Juice

What do you think of eiralox and bbt now then

Not much has changed, both still sus for me.

[furtiveglance]

why would town!juice do that? it doesn't shake out

You could equally ask why scum Juice would do that. It's not good play as either alignment. I have no particular love for that slot and I'm sure they'll probably be eliminated at some point unless there's a replacement but I stand by the idea pushing them as your primary scumread at this point is safe and boring and somewhat scum indicative as a result.

Ok, but I'm aware that pushing a lurker will get me this kind of negative attention as well. I think the problem you're having is that you have this cookie cutter idea of what mafia play like - calculated, choosing pushes carefully, etc. This might be how you play, or how you've seen others play, but the fact is that people do whatever they want.

[furtiveglance]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

[furtiveglance]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, in most cases doesn't recognising town mean you also recognise mafia as its either town or mafia?

It's easier for me to divide people into Town/Not sure yet than divide people into Mafia/Not sure yet

[furtiveglance]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, in most cases doesn't recognising town mean you also recognise mafia as its either town or mafia?

Who is town or mafia in this game?

I'd say I wouldn't vote you/DeltaWave/Frog/Greeting/Hoppip/Inutile today.

[furtiveglance]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, in most cases doesn't recognising town mean you also recognise mafia as its either town or mafia?

Who is town or mafia in this game?

I'd say I wouldn't vote you/DeltaWave/Frog/Greeting/Hoppip/Inutile today.

So that's half the other players I think are town.

[furtiveglance]

I swear that inner procrastinator in me knows no boundaries

page 5

- Remeber how Frog called me town back in 48? Presumably it was due to his stated reason in 51 - he trusted Ausuka's read on me. Now in 109 similar story again. He calls votes me after noting in 108 that 2 other players voted me. Maybe Frog is a sheep. But from my perspective, he isn't solving anything just trying to fit in with the crowd.
- I can see what furtiveglance means in 113 when they say 83 was omgus'y by DeltaWave.

(it's easier to see if you look at 82 to see the whole short discussion and see the disproportionate reaction which was 83)

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but, again, that's something I'm willing to let slide due to the DeltaWave hasn't played for 7 years thing. Sure it's worth noting, but enough for Day1 elim.
- Frog, again, is being unhelpful in 114. What does "Not really." mean exactly? That we can't agree to disagree? That he can't color the same way I did so we can look closer to the differences in how we see things, nor can he explain in his own words? We don't see it opposite? We see it opposite but that doesn't mean one of us has to be wrong?
It's not the first, since he dropped the topic.
It could be the first half the 2nd, but then why wouldn't he try the other half to help game solve process?
If it's the 3rd then his disagreeing with me didn't make sense.
If it's the last then idk what he's smoking.
Whatever it is, 114 to me shows a clear disinterest to game solve by Frog.
[note that the argument itself no longer interests me since I changed my mind since then]
- 116 is interesting by Greeting, due to it adding to the pile of

red flag triggers

people had on DeltaWave. Although the read is obviously complete nonsense, that's obviously not what DeltaWave meant. Fwiw(not much), I'm fairly certain this means Greeting and DeltaWave could never be wolves together.
- I just want to call Greeting wolf/wolf with Frog after reading 118, though I'm obviously super biased.
Greeting, what makes Frog towny in your eyes? Seriously I don't see anything towny about him.
- 124 is officially the first post that looks like Frog rocks the boat even the slightest. Ausuka wolf read furtiveglance in 121 and DeltaWave town read furtiveglance in 123. Ausuka's wolf read seem to have some hidden reasoning behind it whilst DeltaWave townread reason was limited to

"yeah, i know, I deserve to be wolf read"

. So why did Frog chose to townread furtiveglance? I expect it's because furtiveglance townread Frog in 113. On a different note: this seem to be yet another red flag for DeltaWave.

page 6

- I am NOT voting furtiveglance today after 126. He had: Ausuka asking them a question then vote them in 120 and 121 / DeltaWave townreading them in 123 for the

"yeah, i know, I deserve to be wolf read"

reasoning / Frog "townlocking" them in 124. What did furtiveglance first respond to? The worse looking read of the 3. To me this shows a clear sign of focus on game solving on furtiveglance's part.
- furtiveglance, do you have a lot of experience playing with Frog? You calling their reads "Non sequitur" in 128 suggests that. I was wondering if you could provide some insight into Frog's playstyle?
- This'll probably be a controversial opinion, but I think 129(DeltaWave) is a good look for DeltaWave for a funny reason. Why? Because furtiveglance asked a simple question: why doesn't DeltaWave talk more about her wolf read inutile? As large as DeltaWave's response is, she doesn't even respond to that question - only saying things like

"that's funny, because you're looking more like town to me the more we talk"

- completely stuck in their own head. I think a wolf in that post would had tried to appeal to furtiveglance's question in some way.
- I like that Frog now in 130 has said what I expected; that they're a sheep. Only looking at where the herd is looking at. If this is a player thing and not alignment thing, then perhaps some of my reasons for sussing him was wrong. But not all of them. I still think that playstyle is inherently scummy. Like why not discuss a topic with another player where you disagree with? That seems like a obvious way to gamesolve.
- 131 I'm a fan of BBT. Just saw myself nodding throughout most of their post. 2 exceptions being: "Serious vote?" it obviously wasn't by hutmeil / wolf reading DeltaWave (where they agreed with furtiveglance's reads), I just feel like DeltaWave is too easy target while have some points going for her.
- 132 hutmeil what does this mean? townread whom? the person you vote? For asking

"Why are you scumreading Ghandhi? Bit of a non-sequitur I know but I don't want to get into your improv stuff."

?
- 137 I'm genuinly surprised Frog townreading someone who wolf reads him. I put on my aluminium hat and say it's because of the player type that BBT is?
- 140 Bet you I'm the only one who likes this post by DeltaWave. More specifically, the

"not sure what your angle is here"

part of it.
- I hate myself for saying this but 141 looks good on Frog? What I mean is, he sticks to his schtick again where he wants to look at what other people look; in this he asks

"My condition is that I want you to choose something more specific from Ghandi's iso for me to talk about"

. Although this playstyle I do feel is inherently scummy - not being cooperative when people ask something. But him sticking to his ways shows a game process? Previously I thought Frog is just a sheep unwilling to solve. Well, he is a sheep and he most certainly is uncooperative and not a team player, but at least now I see there's a process going on behind the scenes. Hate his playstyle. Could easily still be wolf. But I'm willing to vote elsewhere if anything better shows up.
- 143's

"I missed this intially because I posted right after."

says that my previous comment where I said "I am NOT voting furtiveglance today" was based on wrong reasons. Actually for me now there's nothing AI for furtiveglance's slot anymore. Best I could give is: the sus on DeltaWave is every so slightly sus because she's an easy target whilst the townread on Frog for

"Frogsterking is making a lot of reads early on which I usually find towny"

is just bad reasoning if given any in-depths look at the sources of Frog's reads.

you know.. the sheeping part..

. Calling those things wolfy by furtiveglance only makes sense, to me, if assume his usual reads levels are higher than surface level. That'd be a pressumption. But in case I see nothing better, I'm willing to go with that presumption. (113 looked so good though?)
- 144 is fine look for furtive because it kinda shows surface level reading.
- 145 by Greeting gives me a bit of wolf talking about another wolf vibe. Though the content does mirror my observations. I feel like they're either both town or both wolves.. don't ask why though..
- 147 aligns well with furtive's reasoning in 143. A good look.

other

In slightly more than than I spent 48 hours ago, I went through half as many posts as I did then. This gives me real back to school kind of vibes - where my procrastination be like "there's time, it'll be easy" just to learn it's more than I expected.
Also, I seem to have no real scumreads atm, though a couple that I'm OK with voting / not thrilled though. I suck.

Sorry for the massive quote post, I'm oN MoBiLe aRgHh

Gandhi, thank you for giving me some spotlight in page 6, I had a real hero to zero to meh arc there, what a ride. You directed a question to me about my interaction with Frogsterking. I think I just meant that me quoting their post about something random, to ask them about reads, was a non sequitur as in "This isn't relevant to your latest post BUT".

Also, I wanted to explain why I would have responded to Ausuka voting me before other interactions, if I had seen it. Votes are the most important thing in the game, and I didn't want a townread especially to be voting me.

[furtiveglance]

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" = 4 (it doesn't take much to irk me but I won't bring it up, I'll play it off).

"Take charge" = 3

"Make people feel welcome" = 3

"Like music" = 5

"Like to tidy up" = 1

"Like to visit new places" = 4

"Feel comfortable around people" = 2

"Interested in many things" = 5

"Love order and regularity" = 5

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 4

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 1

"Cheer people up" = 3

"Lose my temper" = 1

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 4

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 5

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1

"Feel desperate" = not enough info here, I don't get it

"Rarely overindulge" = 3

"Easily resist temptations" = 1

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 1

"Waste my time" = 5

"Need a push to get started" = 5

"Have little to contribute" = 3

"Keep my cool" = 5

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 3

I edited my numbers in, but I don't do that much introspection so for some numbers I could probably oyt a different one on a different day. In other words, if the algorithm returns MAFIA, ignore it!

[furtiveglance]

Rate each descriptive statement on how well it describes you using the Likert scale (1 = strongly disagree to 5 = strongly agree).

"Get angry easily" = 4 (it doesn't take much to irk me but I won't bring it up, I'll play it off).

"Take charge" = 3

"Make people feel welcome" = 3

"Like music" = 5

"Like to tidy up" = 1

"Like to visit new places" = 4

"Feel comfortable around people" = 2

"Interested in many things" = 5

"Love order and regularity" = 5

"Am afraid to draw attention to myself" = 4

"Enjoy being part of a large crowd" = 1

"Cheer people up" = 3

"Lose my temper" = 1

"Enjoy the beauty of nature" = 4

"Enjoy thinking about things" = 5

"Cheat to get ahead" = 1

"Feel desperate" = not enough info here, I don't get it

"Rarely overindulge" = 3

"Easily resist temptations" = 1

"Have a high opinion of myself" = 1

"Waste my time" = 5

"Need a push to get started" = 5

"Have little to contribute" = 3

"Keep my cool" = 5

"Avoid crowds" = 5

"Turn my back on others" = 3

I edited my numbers in, but I don't do that much introspection so for some numbers I could probably PUT a different one on a different day. In other words, if the algorithm returns MAFIA, ignore it!

I changed oyt to put.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[furtiveglance]

Strange vote @ furtiveglance

It's for the best.

[furtiveglance]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

This read list is odd in that Greeting decides that BBT should be out of the PoE despite BBT only having made two posts of substantive content

Agree with this, I am fanning these flames

[furtiveglance]

UNVOTE: juice

Nice. I guess townie points for you. I'm still waiting for your survey though.

hutmeil votes Juice, then gives Frogster townpoints for unvoting juice

You read this wrong, the townie points were sarcastic.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Frogsterking

I never explained this vote.

I was fed up of Frogsterking going "Delta/Gandhi/MND are being so sus rn it's really confbiasing my confbias about my Delta/Gandhi/MND solve look at me guys I'm confbiasing so hard rn".

It seemed LAMIST and fake.

[furtiveglance]

That argument makes no sense. Obviously nothing is perfectly scum indicative. By that logic you shouldn't be scumreading Juice. They're just doing whatever they want as well, you just have a cookie cutter idea of what town play looks like.

I find town easier to recognise than mafia in general.

I mean, in most cases doesn't recognising town mean you also recognise mafia as its either town or mafia?

Who is town or mafia in this game?

I'd say I wouldn't vote you/DeltaWave/Frog/Greeting/Hoppip/Inutile today.

Take out Frog obviously, put MND in, put Gandhi in

[furtiveglance]

Furtive can you talk about your MND/greeting/hoppip reads

If you don't have much time I'm most interested in the greeting one I think

Pedit: Hutmeil was being sarcastic

MND towniest, Hoppip town, Greeting least town

[furtiveglance]

Wagon composition suggests I should vote for hutmeil seeing as we're nearing crunch time

[furtiveglance]

Wagon composition suggests I should vote for hutmeil seeing as we're nearing crunch time

But when has anyone ever voted due to wagon composition?

[furtiveglance]

Wagon composition suggests I should vote for hutmeil seeing as we're nearing crunch time

I think hutmeil is town, same with MND. If my dream vote on Frog won't go through today I'd vote Greeting.

[furtiveglance]

I'm just confused. Why are you townreading hutmeil when he wasn't in your earlier list of townreads? And the whole move where you propose to vote Hutmeil and then make two new posts saying "no Actually I don't want to do that" just feels... strange.

Hutmeil was previously not in the townreads because they did nothing towny. But given the urgency of the situation, I decided to reread their ISO and simplify my read on them to the binary level, and I think they're town. What I really want is for you and Delta to get off Hutmeil, I suppose that was the point to the multiple posts, if there was a point.

[furtiveglance]

VOTE: Frogsterking

I never explained this vote.

I was fed up of Frogsterking going "Delta/Gandhi/MND are being so sus rn it's really confbiasing my confbias about my Delta/Gandhi/MND solve look at me guys I'm confbiasing so hard rn".

It seemed LAMIST and fake.

It's worth pointing out that this is more likely to annoy you if you know that I'm Town scumreading Town for stupid reasons. If you're playing from an uninformed perspective how are you so sure that my solve is bad that you're getting annoyed by me pushing it etc.

Uninformed doesn't mean clueless, I have thoughts about the game. You're calling 2 townreads and a null read the scumteam, I'm sure it's not correct. Besides, the manner of your self-conscious proclamations of 'confbias' (an affliction which only troubles town) was more than a little overdone. You were acting.

[furtiveglance]

UNVOTE: Furtive

I had the same question as him for Frog which I TR him for.

This is a weird thing to fake if you're mafia.

[furtiveglance]

I really disagree and struggle to see what you're seeing in that

We're disagreeing about a lot.

What's annoying me is that we're disagreeing, you're scumreading me, but I'm townreading you. I wouldn't blame an observer for scumreading me just based on that. Are you still scumreading me or can you afford me level ground?

[furtiveglance]

Regardless of my insecurities, I'm opposing Hutmeil's vote. Greeting is more palatable.

VOTE: Greeting

[furtiveglance]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

I think this readslist is just the group consensus as it was at the time. As in the average of everyone's thoughts. It makes me think you just looked at post count instead of thinking about the game.

[furtiveglance]

Sorting.

Greeting

inutile

Ausuka

furtiveglance
BlueBloodedToffee
Frogsterking

DeltaWave

PoE:

Juice
hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500
Nuclear Gandhi

I think this readslist is just the group consensus as it was at the time. As in the average of everyone's thoughts. It makes me think you just looked at post count instead of thinking about the game.

Firstly, I don't think there was a group consensus read in this game ever. Even inutile got scumread before she replaced out.

But, let's say that there was a group consensus on townreads. Why is the fact that I support it scum indicative? If I am scum, I don't want a group consensus of townreads, because I will never be able to miseliminate all of them.

I'm saying you supporting the group consensus is scum indicative because you don't need to engage with making up your own reads.

[furtiveglance]

I'm saying you supporting the group consensus is scum indicative because you don't need to engage with making up your own reads.

I haven't spoken about all of my townreads, sure. But I explained most of them. I would say that the posts listed below are evidence against me making up reads by copying consensus townreads. Plus, I am now townreading

Mapuche Never Die

who is the leading wagon and so far from being a consensus townread.

Frogsterking

(145)

Nero Cain

(inutile) (152)

Ausuka

(152)

furtiveglance

(178)

DeltaWave

- tier below townreads, but out of the PoE (715)

Mapuche Never Die

(721, 781)

Ok, I see you have reasons. And I admire someone townreading their main counterwagon. I just don't think hutmeil is mafia.

[furtiveglance]

Deadline kinda snuck up on me and I feel a bit stuck.

[furtiveglance]

I mean MAYBE its just something like a hut/bbt/ and one of hoppip/Eiralox and scum are doing kinda shit all but we'll see.

I sort of don't think Furt would blatantly town read his scum buddy but thats maybe a flip we could consider if the game isn't solved after ^ are flipped. Of course this all depends on hutmeil flipping scum and if he doesn't I think that raises both Furt and Ausuka's scum chances.

VOTE: hutmeil

someone should intent so he can claim and we have time to do something else if we wanted to.

Hold the phone....you're setting me up here, I don't want to get punished for being right.

[furtiveglance]

if you town flip then it makes it look like furt knew you were town and Ausuka gets a huge downgrade. Also, you were a MND counter so your town flip also makes him very sus

Ok stop it right now. Why are you excluding Greeting from this terrible analysis? They're currently the main cw.

[furtiveglance]

Can we get off hutmeil, some bad people jumped on this.

[furtiveglance]

Greeting, Frogsterking, Nero ^^^

[furtiveglance]

Hutmeil, you're right about me not being as fun and fluid this game. That just depends on my IRL mood, I don't force it if I'm not feeling it.

[furtiveglance]

I need to go now but get off hutmeil and get on Greeting.

[furtiveglance]

I've gone from seeing a lot of town to seeing a lot of mafia, Frogsterking, Nero Cain, BBT, Greeting. I'll vote any of these over hutmeil or MND.

[furtiveglance]

Are people really townreading that "well actually my readslist was intentionally terrible" post

Which one

[furtiveglance]

I like that you said this. I wanted to see how people react to a 'shitty' readlist as you said.

What else does this mean

Missed this initially, that post is quite big and I liked the updated reads.

It's unorthodox, but something I can see weird town doing.

[furtiveglance]

Nero Cain

just b/c I'm aware that you could be scum that knows we are running up town?

Even if Hut was flipped green you are still down my totem pole a bit but I think it's a solid strat to town read town and make yourself look good. I don't know why you are up in arms over this.

Are you telling me that if I town read someone that you really thought was scum you wouldn't even consider that I knew they were town?

My problem is you're trying to have it both ways.

[furtiveglance]

I'm going to be completely honest. I'm counting this as a win because I need it. I can't go 1/12. I can't!

[furtiveglance]

If Gandhi had smoked Greeting a scum win would definitely have been more likely, but you never know I guess. Unlucky to mafia, but this game doesn't really count I guess.

[furtiveglance]

Yeah it's not really a win I think

I think town would have won anyway more likely but there's DEFINITELY a big chance mafia win as well

Yeah I meant scum win more likely than when Gandhi smoked Crescent, not scum win more likely than town win. I still think town probably had the edge with the PRs.

[furtiveglance]

Sorry I forgor
will do in a bit

Insanely late reminder

[furtiveglance]

Sorry I forgor
will do in a bit

Insanely late reminder

It's fine I found them:
Mafia PT
Dead PT
Mod PT
Frogsterking PT