[SETUP] Pick the Deck

[Ausuka]

Principles of the Setup:

At the beginning of the game, 12 town and 3 mafia are selected. This is intended as compensation for the mafia knowing the entire setup in advance and designing it to their advantage (to the extent the system allows it.)
Mafia have the opportunity to design the setup in pregame.
The design is based on a points system. By default, Town need at least 20 points worth of roles against an all-scum team. If mafia get power roles this adds to the points town needs; for example if the mafia get 5 points worth of roles, town need at least 25 points.

Town Roles

Investigative

Cop - 12 points
Gunsmith - 11 points, subtract 1 point for every town role with a gun and every mafia role without a gun
Watcher - 10 points
Traffic Analyst - 10 points, subtract 1 point for every player with Neighbour or Mason role
Neapolitan - 1 point for every Vanilla Townie that exists
Detective - 7 points
Psychologist - 7 points
Tracker - 6 points
Follower - 6 points
Friendly Neighbour - 4 points
Rolecop - 2 points
Motion Detector - 2 points
Mailman - 1 point
Fruit Vendor - 1 point

Protective

Doctor - 8 points
Rolestopper - 7 points
Bodyguard - 4 points
Hider - 2 points

Roleblocking

Jailkeeper - 8 points
Alien - 7 points
Roleblocker - 6 points

Killing

Vigilante - 8 points

Passive (Modifiers can’t apply to these roles)

Mason triplet - 15 points
Mason pair - 10 points
Universal Backup - 6 points
Innocent Child - 5 points
Bulletproof - 3 points
Vengeful - 3 points
1 shot Bulletproof - 2 points
Backup of role - *0.4 points of role
Backup of role which doesn’t exist - negative 1 point

Town Modifiers

Additive

Loud - negative 1 point
Ascetic - negative 1 point
Compulsive - negative 2 points
Macho - negative 2 points

Multiplicative

1 shot - multiply points total by 0.3
2 shot - multiply points total by 0.5
3 shot - multiply points total by 0.7
Odd night - multiply points total by 0.6
Even night - multiply points total by 0.4
Novice - multiply points total by 0.6

Special

Weak:
If investigative, worth 9 points
If protective, worth 7 points
If roleblocking, worth 6 points
If killing, worth 4 points

Loyal:
If investigative, worth 10 points
If protective, worth +1 point from original role.
If roleblocking, worth -3 points from original role.
If killing, worth 3 points

Mafia Roles

Investigative

Rolecop - 4 points
Tracker - 3 points
Follower - 3 points
Neapolitan - 3 points
Traffic Analyst - 1 point for each Mason that exists
Role Watcher - 2 points
Detective - 2 points
Gunsmith - 2 points
Psychologist - 1 point
Motion Detector - 1 point
Voyeur - 1 point
Mailman - 1 point
Fruit Vendor - 1 point

Protective

Rolestopper - 4 points
Doctor - 3 points
Bodyguard - 1 point
Hider - 1 point

Roleblocking

Alien - 7 points
Jailkeeper - 6 points
Roleblocker - 6 points

Passive (Modifiers can’t apply to these roles)

Universal Backup - 3 points
Bulletproof - 2 points
1 shot Bulletproof - 1 point
Backup of role - *0.4 points of role
Traitor (Knows mafia and can communicate, but cannot kill and is endgamed if last mafia alive) - negative 2 points

Mafia Modifiers

Additive

Ascetic - +5 points
Loud - +1 point
Compulsive - 0 points
Macho - 0 points

Multiplicative

1 shot - multiply points total by 0.3
2 shot - multiply points total by 0.5
3 shot - multiply points total by 0.7
Odd night - multiply points total by 0.6
Even night - multiply points total by 0.4
Novice - multiply points total by 0.6

Notes

IC is activated. You can't use more than 12 town roles or more than 3 mafia roles. Roleblocking resolution is jailkeeper> Alien > Roleblocker. No duplicate roles are allowed, except for mason and neighbour. Additionally, any modifier may appear only two times at maximum. No multitasking. Daytalk is allowed. Mafia can assign roles to their members.

This is obviously inspired by games like Pick your Power. I think playing mafia in this game would be really fun, and even as town the nature of the game could make things more interesting. Obviously, this setup is nigh impossible to balance perfectly due to its complexity. Nevertheless, I've tried to hash some things out in private with helpful reviewers, to improve the player experience. If you think this idea has potential but notice any flaws in the implementation, please let me know!

[Ausuka]

Neighbour and mason are intended to be exceptions to that rule! I'll edit the post to reflect that

I did worry about the complexity being an obstacle? But like, I think there are fairly simple setups that mafia can throw together and a lot of the complexity is optional?

[Ausuka]

I think the differences to something like C9++ would be

1) the mafia get to design the setup; how fun this is is probably situational, but if I was mafia I'd probably have a blast with it, especially if I knew the other mafia

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

[Ausuka]

I guess, but I don't think the simple setups are generally the best for scum. Or at least, they're incredibly swingy.

I think weak is probably overvalued because scum know to look for crumbs.

Ninja description mentions watcher, which isn't an available town role. Did you intend for it to be?

Do scum get to assign their chosen PR's to their members or is it random?

yeah, i was editing some roles out and i accidentally cut watcher i think. i do want that, so i've added it back

i've edited the op to clarify other things

i see your point with weak

[Ausuka]

2) town knows this, and the constraints in which the mafia designed the setup - I feel like this could lead to interesting dynamics and setup spec? Although I guess it's possible it would just feel gimmicky and WIFOMy, I don't reslly know

Yeah, I feel like outguessing a group of people whose identities you don't even know and who are actively incentivized to trick you seems like a fool's errand. But, still better than closed games that come down to outguessing the mod (this doesn't happen to all closed games, but it's a risk depending on what scum claim).

i mean, that's true, but i feel like the points system does give town some info to work with?

the killstopping one could be a thing, although i find it hard to imagine scum would want to make themselves, like, basically unable to kill? a full strongman could make it viable?

so, doc + rolestopper + roleblocker + jailkeeper + even night vig vs strongman?

i kind of have a hard time imagining scum choosing to play that? it seems unpleasant for the strongman, but if they have a really strong player i suppose they could make it work

[Ausuka]

yeah, idk. i tried i guess

[Ausuka]

Wait.
Ausuka, would it also be worse or better if Town is allowed to choose as well and the moderator combines the proposals of all players to form a single setup?
But then, that might end up making it somewhat like a restricted uPick.
The current setup does seem kind of interesting though.

I considered something like this but I felt like it would be much more difficult to prevent extremely townsided setups since town can't communicate with each other and you can't regulate things like duplicates

[Ausuka]

Soooo...

Mafia can't make Weak Cop (9 points for weak on investigative+12 for cop=21) because?

I mean, this idea probably doesn't work anyway, but Weak Cop is just 9 points. The idea is any weak investigative is the same utility, weak cop is a nerf to cop so it's less points

[Ausuka]

What if you compromised a bit on the concept, so scum only choose some of the roles, or have a random limited set of roles to choose from? That would prevent there from being objectively optimal options that scum should always do. That goes a little more the way of Haunted Village, which is not balanced either but at least has a more viable concept.

I want you to know I am not ignoring this and will probably either do something like this or scrap it altogether

I am just not sure what direction to go with it right now

[Ausuka]

Mafia can't just insert both Loyal and Weak?

That's not allowed

I think Ninja should have different weight for different roles it interacts with because not all roles it interacts with are created equal. It was designed to counter Watcher, NOT Tracker.

I did think about this but then I was like, if mafia want to spend points on a partial tracker counter that's kind of on them?

[Ausuka]

I'm not that experienced with setup design but originally I was thinking like, a risk of counterclaiming the PRs is that over time the claim could become less credible - like, if you claim an insignificant role it doesn't change much for the calculations, and if you claim a significant role people will ask "why aren't they getting nightkilled".

I guess raising the points of strongman or eliminating backups could maybe be a potential solution. Like, I like the design freedom it gives but if it ruins balance the game really doesn't need backups. And strongman is undeniably much stronger in this format than in normal games.

I assumed people were thinking of lots of unbalanced ideas I wasn't seeing and if that's the case this probably won't work but like idk

[Ausuka]

Originally this game was significantly simpler. If this is a middle ground scenario where there are enough problems to the point where patching it up but the setup isn't too fundamentally broken, there's a lot of roles here that I don't think are strictly necessary but provide some design space. The setup doesn't really need watcher, ninja, psychologist, mailman, hider, alien... Etc. I think it's definitely more fun with those if it can be done but I'm not unwilling to trim out some of these roles if it could make this idea playable. I spent quite a bit of effort and was excited about it so I would like to make it work if it's possible at all.

[Ausuka]

IC was intended to be reveal at will, that's the version I'm familiar with. Sorry if unclear. I'll nerf strongman and also add that to the notes.

[Ausuka]

My intention was no although I could see an argument for allowing town and mafia to have one of each role. I think having no duplicates and making a ranking, such as Jailkeeper > Alien > Roleblocker (I think this is fair but would probably want to consult, like, a NRG member before adding it to the rules) would really help in avoiding uncomfortable action resolution. Like, if they're different roles, it can be obvious which one wins if there's somehow some sort of conflict.

[Ausuka]

No multitasking takes away most of those concerns but I guess I want to be safe in case there's any funky interactions, particularly with like jailkepeer and alien

[Ausuka]

I see backup as a different role, if I understand you correctly

No, there's no multitasking or combined, I think that would take the complexity too far to be manageable

They can't add more than 12 roles, thst's illegal. I guess I'll add that to the notes too although I don't think anyone will actually try and put 13 town roles in the game

[Ausuka]

Will you consider adding more roles?

For example Miller.

I'd consider adding more roles, but I think I'd prefer to cut roles right now, I like letting ppl be creative but I think the most important thing is to keep it playable. Something like this can never be consistently balanced, but I think keeping the complexity not too high is good. I don't think miller does anything positive for the setup honestly.

On this subject I just realised gunsmith and a bunch of backups of roles with guns not in the game is maybe broken and I think removing backups of roles not in the game is a fine solution to that

[Ausuka]

I mean, as written, scum can't do 1 shot strongman. I agree that's counterintuitive but I think it sort of prevents that kind of abuse.

[Ausuka]

Like, the whole point of making it scale with protectives is that scum really can't afford a strongman with that many killstopoing roles, it is not possible to do. Of course if you allow strongman to be 1 shot then that is unbalanced.

I guess I could just remove strongman and ninja. Like, if they're going to cause that much of a problem, they aren't really necessary.

[Ausuka]

Also like, scum are sentient beings. They can simply not design a setup that is miserable to play? Like, yes theoretically they could make a terrible setup, but if we can identify and remove things that strongly incentivise them to do so like strongman abuse I think the mafia would rather have fun with the setup, right?

[Ausuka]

Oh, well that doesn't make any sense, strongman isn't passive.

And I mean miserable for town, not necessarily for scum.

I guess I can change the name of the category if that's important. I don't want modifiers to be able to apply to strongman, because although it's counterintuitive, stuff like 1x strongman is indeed broken in a game like this

All I can say on the second point is that I would rather play a setup with a ton of killstopping roles as town than scum and from what I've read of reviews, it's a pretty common viewpoint that scum find not being able to kill people frustrating and it's bad to use to many killstopping roles for that reason?

[Ausuka]

Or I could just, uh, remove Strongman. I think that addresses most of the concerns that have been raised so far and I don't think it's important to have?

[Ausuka]

Strongman and ninja are gone

I feel like scum will probably not want to expose themselves to the risk of tons of kills getting stopped, and worst case scenario doctor and rolestopper protecting each other. I think even if there are no investigative PRs scum will definitely still be annoyed by kills not going through? Like, I imagine it would be frustrating to eliminate town after town yet the game is extended because you put a ton of protectives in the game and now your kills keep not going through.

In particular I imagine in order to reduce this risk scum will have to kill the killstopping roles so they will still have targets

If this is an actual problem in practice I feel like you could just regulate that there can be no more than 1 protective and 1 roleblocking role on the town side, or something like that

[Ausuka]

Good point, gunsmith should probably be changed to "11 points but take away one point for each town role with a gun"

I think broadly letting mafia make meme setups is fine but town need to have power too. They have IC, vig, detective there so it's not the worst it could be, but still

There's still a way to go but I think we're making progress!

[Ausuka]

The hoods thing is a good point. I think the best solution is probably just 'get rid of neighbours' - I would consider just capping hood size which would invalidate the specific setup you listed but on review I'm not sure if the mafia choosing hoods is actually fun as a mechanic.

If a role isn't in the listed categories it shouldn't be able to be Loyal or Weak, I think? Did I typo something

[Ausuka]

That would fall under investigative as listed

I know that's counterintuitive but I think loyal fruit vendor is more similar to like, a loyal cop than a loyal doctor. It can generate clears and guilties based on its loyal status like a loyal investigative, and a weak fruit vendor would act in pretty much the same way as a weak investigative - it generates clears like any weak role but you have confirmation your action was successful. I guess in this context investigative could be considered a role that generates feedback

[Ausuka]

Yeah, that's true, especially having something like a mafia tracker could change things

That being said I'm not sure if it's worth the complexity cost to change it?? I mean, one advantage loyal fruit vendor has is that it can confirm itself as town if only one scum is alive in a way loyal cop can't. Is that enough to justify being equal in points? If not I guess I could make a separate category for fruit vendor, mailman and FN

[Ausuka]

Why are modifiers not allowed on passive roles?
Why can't Ascetic townie exist? .
I don't see the extra utility of giving them (Obviously a macho mason is worse than a normal mason, but its worth less points in return same as any actual role.)

Basically to disallow stuff like loyal mason or loud mason or whatever

Theoretically you could add more complexity to allow for stuff like macho mason but I'm not sure if it's worth making this even more difficult to understand

I think the lack of ascetic townie and miller helps to avoid some cheese? I'd consider adding it if there's widespread demand, I feel like there should be a way to make it both a role and a modifier, but it seems like a net negative to me.

[Ausuka]

The issue is neighbour allows for making hoods with PRs which basically give mafia knowledge about power roles in a way that feels unfairly scumsided

I guess I could add neighbourizer that seems fine enough even though it works weird with the points mechanics

[Ausuka]

Alternatively just, don't allow town power roles to be neighbors.

Ok but knowing every neighbour is vanilla is still a big information advantage for mafia from the start which I don't think I'm comfortable with