[SETUP] Pick the Deck

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:01 am

Post by Ausuka »

Good point, gunsmith should probably be changed to "11 points but take away one point for each town role with a gun"

I think broadly letting mafia make meme setups is fine but town need to have power too. They have IC, vig, detective there so it's not the worst it could be, but still

There's still a way to go but I think we're making progress!
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:18 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Cop, Weak Gunsmith, 10x Town Neighbor, 3x Mafia Neighbor.

Maybe it's balanced but seems kinda silly and not super fun for town. Neighbor should probably be like -0.5 or something, at least if there's mafia in the hood.

Also, what happens to loyal/weak when a role isn't in one of the listed categories?
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:22 am

Post by Enchant »

In post 39, Ausuka wrote:
In post 38, Enchant wrote:Will you consider adding more roles?

For example Miller.
I'd consider adding more roles, but I think I'd prefer to cut roles right now, I like letting ppl be creative but I think the most important thing is to keep it playable. Something like this can never be consistently balanced, but I think keeping the complexity not too high is good. I don't think miller does anything positive for the setup honestly.

On this subject I just realised gunsmith and a bunch of backups of roles with guns not in the game is maybe broken and I think removing backups of roles not in the game is a fine solution to that
Please add Miller, so mafia can make Bulletproof Miller Vigilante.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:31 am

Post by Ausuka »

The hoods thing is a good point. I think the best solution is probably just 'get rid of neighbours' - I would consider just capping hood size which would invalidate the specific setup you listed but on review I'm not sure if the mafia choosing hoods is actually fun as a mechanic.

If a role isn't in the listed categories it shouldn't be able to be Loyal or Weak, I think? Did I typo something
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:41 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

I like GUNPHORIA

In practice it's vengeful, innocent child, 1-shot vig, gunsmith-who's-worth-roughly-one-inno (either by claiming or by finding a town neighbor), against 2 goons and a white flag traitor. It's super weird and setup spec would be bizarre (and there's a chance the gunsmith is mafia, which certainly adds WIFOM) but as long as players remember to prioritize dayplay (since nightplay setup stuff is full of WIFOM) I think it's fairly balanced, especially because it's 15p.

I also like SS's setup. Silly, yes, but 15p cop+weak gunsmith (both of whom are conftown themselves unless scum dare to muddy the roleclaim waters) seems pretty townsided actually. By day 2 you could have 4 semi-innos. 6 semi-innos by the time it's down to 11 players.
Ohhhhhhh I see the problem with this setup now - haha ha scum knows exactly who the cop and gunsmith are. Yeah maybe an upper limit on the # of neighbors is needed
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:47 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 53, Ausuka wrote:If a role isn't in the listed categories it shouldn't be able to be Loyal or Weak, I think? Did I typo something
No, that just wasn't clear from the OP. I could imagine e.g. a weak fruit vendor so I wondered if you had forgotten to list it.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:57 am

Post by Ausuka »

That would fall under investigative as listed

I know that's counterintuitive but I think loyal fruit vendor is more similar to like, a loyal cop than a loyal doctor. It can generate clears and guilties based on its loyal status like a loyal investigative, and a weak fruit vendor would act in pretty much the same way as a weak investigative - it generates clears like any weak role but you have confirmation your action was successful. I guess in this context investigative could be considered a role that generates feedback
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:00 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Yeah, I think that makes sense and I agree. I would explicitly list it though, because fruit vendor is not investigative normally.

Also, you don't quite get hard confirmation. If scum are able to guess your target, they can fool you in a way that e.g. a loyal cop can't be fooled.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:04 am

Post by Ausuka »

Yeah, that's true, especially having something like a mafia tracker could change things

That being said I'm not sure if it's worth the complexity cost to change it?? I mean, one advantage loyal fruit vendor has is that it can confirm itself as town if only one scum is alive in a way loyal cop can't. Is that enough to justify being equal in points? If not I guess I could make a separate category for fruit vendor, mailman and FN
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:03 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Why are modifiers not allowed on passive roles?
Why can't Ascetic townie exist? .
I don't see the extra utility of giving them (Obviously a macho mason is worse than a normal mason, but its worth less points in return same as any actual role.)
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:12 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

MegAzumarill's Baseline Low Town Power

TOWN
Vigilante
Cop
VT*10

MAFIA
Gunsmith
Traitor
Goon

Modified Low Town Power

Vigilante
Cop
Vt*10

MAFIA
Traitor
OS BP
Motion Detector
Last edited by MegAzumarill on Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:14 am

Post by Ausuka »

In post 59, MegAzumarill wrote:Why are modifiers not allowed on passive roles?
Why can't Ascetic townie exist? .
I don't see the extra utility of giving them (Obviously a macho mason is worse than a normal mason, but its worth less points in return same as any actual role.)
Basically to disallow stuff like loyal mason or loud mason or whatever

Theoretically you could add more complexity to allow for stuff like macho mason but I'm not sure if it's worth making this even more difficult to understand

I think the lack of ascetic townie and miller helps to avoid some cheese? I'd consider adding it if there's widespread demand, I feel like there should be a way to make it both a role and a modifier, but it seems like a net negative to me.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:20 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Neighbor isn't listed btw.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:23 am

Post by Ausuka »

The issue is neighbour allows for making hoods with PRs which basically give mafia knowledge about power roles in a way that feels unfairly scumsided

I guess I could add neighbourizer that seems fine enough even though it works weird with the points mechanics
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:26 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Alternatively just, don't allow town power roles to be neighbors.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:27 am

Post by Ausuka »

In post 64, MegAzumarill wrote:Alternatively just, don't allow town power roles to be neighbors.
Ok but knowing every neighbour is vanilla is still a big information advantage for mafia from the start which I don't think I'm comfortable with
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:28 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Fair enough
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:50 pm

Post by Something_Smart »

You could have neighbors be assigned independently of town PR's.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:37 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

^
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