Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[Ausuka]

VOTE: marcistar

Smells like garlic

[Ausuka]

Hey it's Aus and Marci! Long time no see!

Hi Johnny. Are you a wolf? bark if yes

[Ausuka]

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

[Ausuka]

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Weird post.

am I scum for it?

what sort of supernatural entity - need to know if im connected to a higher power

Might have been a Greek god but I'm not sure. Something classical I think

I actually think Ausuka might be town, they're acting like the same amount of clowness as they did last game.

Aisa seems town rn so does the rat.

juice seems cocky.. self absorbed..? idk what the word im thinking of there is..

What do you mean by clownish? Also could u elaborate on the juice thought because I don't see it and am also not sure if you're townreading them for it

[Ausuka]

What do you mean by clownish? Also could u elaborate on the juice thought because I don't see it and am also not sure if you're townreading them for it

i don't have a read on juice im just saying they seem self absorbed

r u saying ur not town bb

ok but what do u mean by clownish I want to know

[Ausuka]

A third vote during RVS? Putting me at L-2 is pretty strange behaviour - certainly not very town orientated.

Is that not a pro-town thing?

Putting anyone at L-2 - just for shits and giggles? Yeah okay then. UNVOTE:

Don't really understand your thought process here - why unvote and why not vote Aisa if you don't think she's town orientated?

[Ausuka]

Is there a reason you haven't replied to Ausuka, marci?

yes, ausuka already knows what i mean shes just playing dumb.

like literally "same clowness as last game" is so hard to understand apparently

that's vague as anything and you know it

[Ausuka]

Is there a reason you haven't replied to Ausuka, marci?

yes, ausuka already knows what i mean shes just playing dumb.

like literally "same clowness as last game" is so hard to understand apparently

that's vague as anything and you know it

literally look at last game and ull figure it out sweetie xoxo

why are you like this

[Ausuka]

i say that purely out of love <3

but still i have like 0 understanding of what you get from being this obstinate as either alignment. unless you're reaction testing or something but i would've hoped you learned from last time that making everything you do a reaction test just makes you impossible to understand or read?

[Ausuka]

i'm asking you what made you feel that way considering i had barely posted anything up to that point and i am worried you are townreading me too easily?

[Ausuka]

you know, because scum know townies are town and are more likely to see towniness in their every action whereas town are often more PARANOID and SUSPICIOUS

i kind of townlean hiraki for that reason btw because like, I don't think calling everyone scummy without specifying is likely to get townread at all and i think calling me weird is like, something scum is less likely to do because they are generally more concerned with their image and doing so has very little benefit - i don't think he would make that post expecting to get townread for it, if that makes sense

[Ausuka]

I think that line of reasoning makes some sense but not sure I agree yet - I remember from my metadive of her last game she does like getting into arguments for no reason as scum. Like, she does it as town too and I'm not scumreading her for that part of the interaction, but I can see scum!marci behaving this way - in particular I think coming off 'clean' and 'reasonable' which is a common scum strategy would be too far of a departure from her towngame to be believable.

[Ausuka]

i'm asking you what made you feel that way considering i had barely posted anything up to that point and i am worried you are townreading me too easily?

how hard is it to undersrand wtf

you always tell me how much you suck right?
so then i see you form thoughts and word things here similar to how you did last game (clowning)
so then its townie vibes cuz similar?!??!?

Ok but I'm asking you to elaborate about the thoughts that made you think that, because I don't think I had given any substantial thoughts at that point. I don't think I'm being particularly unreasonable here.

I don't expect your read to be strong as either alignment - I'm questioning whether your thought process is genuine.

[Ausuka]

VOTE: marcistar

Smells like garlic

Hey it's Aus and Marci! Long time no see!

Hi Johnny. Are you a wolf? bark if yes

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

I'll try putting this in other words. Can you explain which of these posts made you feel that way? Because none of these posts contain anything substantial.

[Ausuka]

I have read your post. You say my thoughts are similar to last game where I was town so I am more likely to be town here. I am suspicious of this because I don't think I've given any thoughts at this point, which means your reasoning doesn't make sense and is more likely to come from someone who already knows I'm town and doesn't really have to think about what I'm saying to get a read. Why am I wrong?

[Ausuka]

I understand that this line of reasoning isn't bulletproof, but it's page 4. If early game statements were just let go because it's the early game and nothing is that thought out I think it'd be difficult to get the game started. I think there is reason to be suspicious of the thought process that led to Marci's statement, and I'd like her to answer the question.

[Ausuka]

k

VOTE: marcistar

[Ausuka]

[Ausuka]

I don't get how it's so hard for marcistar to wrap her head around "I know what you're saying and I want you to fucking elaborate because I don't think the grounds for a genuine read existed at that time"

This is a really annoying approach to take.

[Ausuka]

This is really not difficult! You could have just answered the question two pages ago instead of talking at me like I'm stupid and don't understand English

[Ausuka]

VOTE: marcistar

Smells like garlic

Hey it's Aus and Marci! Long time no see!

Hi Johnny. Are you a wolf? bark if yes

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Do you really not see why I would question you townreading this

This has no substantial similarity to my last game. I personally feel that I could fake these posts as scum with absolutely zero difficulty

There is nothing here. It looks like a TMI read.

Can I be wrong? Easily. If I am just elaborate on what it is here you found towny and quit the passive aggressive nonsense please.

[Ausuka]

okay?? ur literally quoting the post where I explain are u blind < 333

I don't get how its so hard for Ausuka to wrap her head around what "the

way

the thoughts are formed and worded is townie" means.
I'm just gonna plain out keep not responding to Ausuka in an actual conclusive way since they wanna pretend that that game didn't have an early game!

how am i talking to you like that????

???

[Ausuka]

You didn't!! You said "oh how you construct thoughts felt similar to last game" and I'm saying "but there are no thoughts here and I certainly didn't do any construction of thoughts so how can that be a real thought you had" and you're just figuratively sticking your fingers in your ears.

[Ausuka]

Like you say "ausuka feels clownish like last game"

I ask you to elaborate and you just say

"Ausuka feels like last game" which is basically just a reiteration. That is not an explanation.

I want you to explain how you got that read from the zero actual content I had at that point.

[Ausuka]

Hey y'all my 1 year old just had to get some emergency intestinal surgery, I'll be touch and go for a min.

Catching up now

I hope everything goes okay with your family Johnny and good luck

[Ausuka]

literally stop being a clown i explained it already

[Ausuka]

It's hard to understand because all you're saying is vague stuff you refuse to elaborate on. How is this even similar to a game where I claimed miller? What is the thought process here?

[Ausuka]

Like when I said this had no substantial similarity to my last game

For those not in the know, our last game had me claim miller and Marci pushed me for it, I retaliated. That opening had a claim shortly followed by a push. I would say the openings are very different and that's part of the reason this whole situation is so baffling to me

[Ausuka]

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

[Ausuka]

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

Ive played mafia to know what scum vs. scum chats can possible be - and on Day 1, I am willing to to take more risks. If you were both scum - I would not be shocked

I hate to sound like a broken record but this doesn't really answer the question? Specifically what part of our interaction made you think this

[Ausuka]

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them

I mean, I was asking a question and she repeatedly dodged it and started being hostile, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do in that situation.

In any case, I specifically asked Juice about this rather than, like Hikari or something because I wanted to hear it from xem and I'm a bit curious to why you would answer this question for xem when xe is your main suspect?

[Ausuka]

Okay, so while I would love to eliminate marcistar purely out of spite, I'm not especially sure she's scum here. I hope she is and I'll be disappointed if she's not, but I don't necessarily think her behaviour here is out of her townrange. I still think her townread of me at the start was strange, and her refusal to elaborate beyond saying the same thing in different words infuriates me, but the fact she seems to be at E 1 without really any reasoning from anyone else on the wagon concerns me a lot. None of Hiraki, Herta or Juice feel like they have a towny push on Marci.

I think Juice's hop on the wagon looks really bad. Whether that makes xem scum I am uncertain but I would definitely like them to elaborate on xeir vote at the very least.

UNVOTE:

[Ausuka]

They are asking what part of the posts make them feel forced

Exactly. This is just the same thing as what Marci did so I guess I won't bother engaging further since most people got annoyed by me pressing that.

[Ausuka]

I think I want to vote for either Aisa or Herta but I am not sure which right now. Aisa I think feels the scummiest based on play; she does not feel particularly genuine, there's the thing I pointed out, I feel that the juice push is really easy and her approach towards xem feels unnecessarily passive I guess? Like, it feels like she's holding back and trying to appear super reasonable. I will have to check her past games to see how alignment indicative this actually is.

Herta's vote on Marci is the worst and while I don't think his play is like *that* scummy I think the jump on her is ?probably? More likely to come from scum than Hiraki and Juice and if I'm looking for scum on the Marci wagon I would start there

[Ausuka]

I really don't see why people are trying to associative hero solve on day 1.

[Ausuka]

Aisa I think feels the scummiest based on play;

ur wrong aisa seems towny

yeah she does from a certain point of view, I think her play is geared towards seeming towny and pleasant and kind of blending in a bit and that feels scummy to me.

[Ausuka]

I hate this game already

[Ausuka]

I literally won last game as scum in part because people don't trust Marci for playing like this.

Aussie you were there.

Ok? I think she would be capable of her play towards me as town and have said as much

Aisa I think feels the scummiest based on play;

ur wrong aisa seems towny

yeah she does from a certain point of view, I think her play is geared towards seeming towny and pleasant and kind of blending in a bit and that feels scummy to me.

I think you're letting your mind wander too much that its over complicating things.

Maybe I'm just too idiotic to see it but I don't think so at all.

[Ausuka]

I am finding it increasingly hard to believe town juice has this much confidence in xyr page 6 hero solve

[Ausuka]

VOTE: juice

[Ausuka]

the fact that Ausuka and Marci are being given a pass is just hilarious

?????????

[Ausuka]

Yeah, this whole "It's not me guys!!! It's Ausuka!" when literally no one agrees with this take either means marci is VI or scum with Ausuka. I really think it should overall be ignored today (I don't really buy Ausuka's point either) but I don't think it should be forgotten.

Will respond to the rest later but

Spoiler:

Ok so I'm going to put the proper effort into rereading at some point

Primarily, I want to weigh evidence for and against the existence of a Marci/scamper team

Secondarily, I think Marci/jf, Marci/Gamma and gamma/jf all deserve serious consideration, roughly in that order

ASUSUKA VOTE ME I BET YOU WONT

VOTE ME SINCE IM SUCH CLEAR SCUM U COWARD

OH WAIT ITS CUZ UR SCUM AND U WANT A TOWNIE TO VOTE ME FIRST

i can towncase myself later but whats the use fighting something so set in stone because of towns dumbassry

Lol

Scamper I don't understand why you think Marci is town here like any substantial percentage of the time

DO IT

DO IT

I BET U WONT

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

DO IT VOTE ME

ITS NOT GAMETHROWING IF U THINK IM SCUM

OH WAIT...! UR SCUM!!

It's so tempting but unfortunately I made a promise to my feline friend

DO IT VOTE ME

ITS NOT GAMETHROWING IF U THINK IM SCUM

OH WAIT...! UR SCUM!!

Literally you are calling me sure scum while not voting me

Like you are doing the exact same thing

COME ON SCUM VOTE ME I BET U WONT

im not scared

if im the miselim, so be it, nothing i can really do about it since im not known to be persuasive
but i will try my best to actually fight it when i have the time to

im confident in doing what i feel, and if its wrong, also, so be it?? like its not rrally a big deal

SO COME ON SNAKE COME FIGHT ME

BRING IT

There's no way town you votes me in elo like that I refuse to believe it

when was the last time i made it to elo bestie?!?!?

I am making a judgement that you are intelligent enough not to do that and bet the game on a scumread that came out of nowhere with zero justification.

COME ON SCUM VOTE ME I BET U WONT

Still not voting me but brave rhetoric

COME VOTE ME COME DO IT

OH WAIT U WONT U SNAKE

This is a lovely interaction I had with Marci in ELO in our last game together when she was town. I think it's reasonable to believe that her behaviour here is within her townrange.

[Ausuka]

Just to be clear, Juice is referring to my post.

I'm aware. I thought the way xe immediately kind of parroted your point and used it to jump on Marci looked bad so I was hoping to force xem to give their individual thoughts on her.

I also think that Ausuka's playstyle is just more detail and very structure oriented. I used to have a phase like this earlier but it makes super giant walls that can get very confusing overall versus fast speedy points (both for town and scumplay).

I agree that my playstyle isn't the most charismatic, but I don't think my reads are accurate enough that convincing people of them should be the priority. This is kind of my natural writing style (when it comes to the kind-of-debatey format of mafia at least) so writing like this basically allows me to present my thoughts the most genuine way I can. I find I tend to get universally townread a lot when I play like this, which takes me out of the limpool and helps town even if my reads aren't great. I would be open to more feedback about this postgame though.

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a reach and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes.

I mean, I didn't say I like details a lot, that was your characterisation of my play. I didn't think giving a lot of detail was necessary there, but I'll elaborate here. Herta's jump on Marci felt convenient and like he was trying to give the bare minimum explanation? I can't explain it that well but I didn't like it. Your vote was leftover from RVS and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum - I still townlean on you overall but I think I'm right that it wasn't a towny push on your part. Juice's jump on Marci, like Herta, was convenient and seemed a bit shallow, but the vote putting her at E-1 made it so blatantly suspicious, that I thought it was less scummy than Herta's overall.

Also, I'm not retracting my original point. There are three things that play into my changing the topic;

1) people are calling me out as if I'm as bad as Marci just because I kept trying to get her to answer the question, and fired back when she started insulting me. Given this, I do not think pressing her further is going to be productive, and is just going to make me get frustrated.

2) I honestly just want to talk about other things. This is context I wouldn't expect anyone else to know, but we are friends and I like Marci as a person so her calling me idiotic feels hurtful. I want to say she wouldn't do it as town but I also want to say she wouldn't press on my insecurities as a scum strategy. I know from last game she can do trolling as town, but I just do not want to deal with her right now. I also just do not think engaging her will be productive at all. I am not going to just give her a pass for the rest of the day but I'd rather talk to and about other people. We have plenty of time.

3) There are other people I want to talk about. Last game Marci behaved like this and was town, as I said. I don't want her antics to monopolise the attention and I think it's worth pursuing suspects outside of her. If Marci and Juice are both town placing a "please eliminate me" stickers on their backs, and we focus on their blatantly scummy behaviour, we are going to be in a very bad place.

This post is the worst because it's almost assuming that Marci is town. I think Marci is absolutely the best flip for today for information at the very least.

Uh, no it doesn't. I can call out a vote that I see as bad without assuming the person being voted is town. Even disregarding that everyone is more likely than not to be town at this stage regardless of my read on them, scum vote each other literally all the time.

[Ausuka]

There is a pretty clear difference in tone and insult throwing here.

Uh, she called me a coward and a snake in that game. I think that's insult throwing.

[Ausuka]

I think my rxn test went very well though - lots of juicy protein

Why did you decide to do this reaction test? What were you hoping to get out of it, what reads have you gotten out of it?

UNVOTE:

[Ausuka]

It was all part of the same stream of consciousness. As in "ooh the SvS thought kinda makes sense but there are these other things I dislike". The part of my mind that resolves contradictions in my writing just went on annual leave for a while because it's been working overtime and really deserves a spa retreat :3

I mean, I believe you when you say this, but it feels suspicious to me. Like, you've been voting Juice since pretty early and seemed like you were trying to apply pressure on xem earlier, so your passive suspicion towards xem already felt kind of weird. The fact that you went into the post seemingly without the mindset that Juice is your main suspect makes you feel like scum that doesn't really care.

I hope you get that spa retreat though!

[Ausuka]

if it actually hurts you ill stop asuska

i would like that, yes

[Ausuka]

Do you not see the irony in saying this and looking at the Juice wagon - which actually got to E-1 - but you have not made the same point about that?

No, I don't feel the same way about the Juice wagon really. I'm not immensely keen on getting into detail on this because I don't think it would accomplish much and would be time consuming but I guess I could if you really wanted.

actually agree with you that Herta's change is a little strange to me but it's not at all 'convenient'. It's the second vote on the wagon after Herta already asks a question

I disagree - if Marci is town, she is self immolating and voting her for frustration seems like a very surface level way to make the easiest push in the game. If Marci is scum, I agree another word would be better, but it still doesn't feel like real sorting and I'm not sure how much the word use matters.

Do people need to explain their votes? Maybe this goes into a little bit of theory but I don't think you need to explain a vote until you actually want support on it.

Sure it's not necessary. That doesn't change my point that I feel kind of uncomfortable with the Marci wagon getting to that point and staying there with the reasoning given though.

This isn't really addressing the actual topic on hand here. If you call out the wagon but you think the person is still scum, you think that scum is joining a scum wagon on Day 1 to gain credit. That's a really weird buss to make before the 10th page. Saying 'scum vote each other literally all the time' is correct but they don't do it for nothing - which is something that you're accusing almost every person in your explanation above of doing.

I disagree. I think scum vote each other when they very much do not need to and there is no immediate benefit, based on my past experiences in mafia games. I'm not accusing anyone of being the scumteam or specifically bussing - what I am trying to say is that it's pretty much impossible to make these kinds of calls on day 1 and I am going to evaluate people's play individually rather than saying something like "oh, Marci could be scum, so I'm not going to look for potential scum on the Marci wagon"

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Aisa

I think I would like to go here for now

[Ausuka]

I said I was going to look into Aisa's past games. I did, but so many of them were from years ago that I don't think it's particularly useful.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? It also feels like unnaturally hedgey. Instead of just like, pressuring Juice, or really make the case that ye is scum here, she's really emphasising the weakness of the read. It feels like she's trying to appear super reasonable and stay under the radar more than solve the game. I guess a good way to put it is that she's more focused on looking like she's sorting Juice than actually sorting Juice here.

I also feel that answering a question on Juice's behalf is scummy for her because I would expect town Aisa to want to hear the elaboration xe gives. I don't think she's really writing her posts with the aim to sort Juice or anybody else, if that makes sense.

[Ausuka]

I think that's fair and makes it less bad than I was thinking, although I still stand by the rest of my post

[Ausuka]

Not particularly? I'm not suspicious the quantity of your posting but the content of it - I'm not doubting you weren't around and I don't expect players to be super active, but I don't think that really changes the motives I see in your posting if that makes sense.

[Ausuka]

- You said the Juice push was really easy and then proceeded to vote xem yourself. In fact now that I reread it you had already sussed Juice at the time

This seems worth clarifying. My point wasn't that Juice is an easy push so only scum would push xem. Juice has been pretty blatantly scummy and I think almost everyone has expressed at least some level of suspicion there. My point was because Juice is limbait if town, it makes the hedgey sort-of-push look worse; because everyone is sus of xem it looks more like you're blending in to me.

[Ausuka]

Herta I'd like to hear about your current reads apart from juice?

[Ausuka]

megs just doing this thing where they're roleplaying a teacher.

This is probably because certain players in the game are roleplaying as naughty students

[Ausuka]

Juice I would like you to answe my questions about your gambit

[Ausuka]

Ok, can you elaborate please

[Ausuka]

I was more trying to clarify what specifically you found scummy from Aisa's behaviour? I guess I'd also like you to clarify why exactly you thought lying about your reads would be productive

[Ausuka]

-_-

[Ausuka]

Scum are probably in {Herta, aisa, Johnny}

[Ausuka]

Yes, your heart lies.

As much as I didn't really like your entrance... I can't possibly vote you after this, it's too good.

VOTE: marcistar
Still not convinced marci/Ausuka is SvS, but that is the angle Hiraki was pushing and he's dead. I don't see why they wouldn't leave him alive to continue to push that if marci and Ausuka are both Town, and I've already expressed who I think looks worse of the pair

[Ausuka]

I was sorta townreading rr before but both of their entrance posts today are really scummy

I don't think I have any townreads here really except Meg

Maybe marci and Johnny are scum like somewhat less than Rand amount of the time

[Ausuka]

Maybe marci and Johnny are scum

whys ausuka always so bad at reading me

This is such a Marci post

[Ausuka]

VOTE: Herta

Reread his iso and it's really bad, so

[Ausuka]

Maybe marci and Johnny are scum

whys ausuka always so bad at reading me

wait is this marci claiming scum

[Ausuka]

wolfistar strikes again

[Ausuka]

Maybe marci and Johnny are scum

whys ausuka always so bad at reading me

wait is this marci claiming scum

you literally xalled me scum in the wuoted line

I said you were probably less likely to be scum than random

[Ausuka]

That's like a slight townlean at best tho

[Ausuka]

I think RR opening the day pushing that Marci killed Hiraki because his theory from early game was correct is really slimy when Hiraki had been pushing RR for like a long time

Pedit: Maybe you should've taken English classes at clown school

[Ausuka]

confession; i'm stupid and don't know what a radiologist is so i have no idea what this means role wise

i think 322 from johnny is +scum though

[Ausuka]

That makes some sense but also like, it's hard to believe the fact Hiraki was pushing town most loudly from your pov didn't lead you to other conclusions - like he was probably killed for being widely townread, or maybe mafia somehow caught on he was a PR. The way you seem to like, instantly come up with a scumpool of me and marci at daystart is kind of sus to me. After strongly pushing Juice as scum it's a convenient pivot to have available.

[Ausuka]

I mean, the game would be nice and easy if it was a good strategy to always eliminate the people the nightkill was scumreading, but I think we both know that isn't true? I wouldn't have a problem if you brought it up as a point against Marci but the fact you didn't really seem to do much evaluation and used Hiraki to make your push even though he was scumreading you feels slimy to me.

[Ausuka]

What exactly about Herta do you townread?

[Ausuka]

I feel like that's super easy to fake. Like, it's just a request for clarification? It's really NAI. What about it do you find genuine?

[Ausuka]

and as scum he would probably not be questioning a wagon he wanted to flip

I mean, it's not like asking a simple question for clarification threatens the wagon at all? I don't understand this take either

[Ausuka]

Yes, it could be fake. Anything could be fake. You could be faking this entire conversation, as could I. And I reserve the right to change my mind if he does something more overtly scummy later on, but for now I believe it.

Yes, nothing is impossible to be fake. But this is so incredibly easy for scum to do that I really do not think it is town indicative at all and struggle to see why you believe that it is. It is literally just a short request for clarification.

[Ausuka]

I agree RR's logic here is not airtight, but it doesn't have to be airtight for it to be a genuine read. It feels like Ausuka is being deliberately tunnelly. Like they seem more interested in poking holes in RR's logic here than in actually trying to assess if RR is coming from a towny mindset.

I don't think this applies here. First of all, I'm really not tunneling - I townleaned RR d1 and only just started scumreading them. Secondly, I think the holes in the logic are *exactly why* RR comes off as not having a towny mindset. I don't believe that after Hiraki is nightkilled, someone who had been pushing RR, RR assumes Hiraki was killed for his reads, when they know Hiraki was vocally wrong about at least one thing. It comes off as too convenient, allowing them to pivot into scumreading Marci at the start of today - after pushing Juice Marci is the logical next easy target for scum because neither of them have any self preservation and both say things that make no sense.

[Ausuka]

Like, I think the holes in the logic are not particularly difficult to understand. You also found this an odd angle. RR is not a new player. Why should I believe that their thought process is genuine? The simplest explanation is that RR was looking for a pivot into Marci and planned to use the Hiraki kill as an excuse to do so while also eliminating their biggest critic from the game.

[Ausuka]

Have you ever heard of a tone read or a vibe read (<3)? I think this is the worst post of the bunch and seems pretty forced. Ausuka Feels Deliberately Tunnelly: The Sequel.

And yeah, obviously I've heard of a tone read. That doesn't mean I'm just going to accept any read and not question it. It's absolutely possible that RR is town here and I just don't understand their angle. But given how simple Herta's post is, I think claiming to townread it is scum indicative. It makes it seem more likely they are tailoring the evidence to fit the reads rather than the other way around.

[Ausuka]

Herta can you talk to me about Aisa

I don't not see it, but her most recent post where she argued in favour of RR is probably +town - I don't think scum is particularly likely to go in against me here because it's just not a productive route of pushing. Anyone else in the game other than probably Meg would be an easier target. Maybe she's scum with RR but it would be a very bold play to go in defending them so strongly.

The question is if it is RR and not Aisa and also not Herta who would the second be

VOTE: radical Rat for now

[Ausuka]

I mean, I'm aware your reads aren't perfect and I don't expect that. But similarly, I have to make judgements with the information I have and my judgement is that it seems likely you're trying to frame Marci.

My other theories for why Hiraki could have been killed include
-you are scum and he was the only one pushing you
- he was widely townread
- mafia thought he appeared competent; especially true if mafia didn't gather much suspicion

There are almost certainly others but these are the big ones

[Ausuka]

I think I understand that you are claiming RR is scum because you find the holes in their logic scummy, I don't think that's a convincing rebuttal to my point that you seem interested in poking holes in RR's logic.

I really don't understand this point. I've explained why I am "poking holes" RR's logic; I don't think the position they showed at the start of the day is genuine and I think it meets a scum agenda. You can make the point I'm doing this as much as you like but you don't really explain why this means I'm not assessing RR.

Not to mention you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing me of doing! You are trying to poke holes in my argument to the end of arguing that my position isn't genuine! I don't think that's inherently a problem - it's a common tactic used in mafia games - but doing it while arguing it's somehow fundamentally flawed and scummy is really strange to me.

[Ausuka]

I can't really engage in full right now but didn't you say ausuka that my iso was terrible? It sounds like you don't really think so?

I hadn't really taken in aisa's recent posting, well haven't, but I will and think about it. I kinda just closed over it before which sometimes happens when there's complex thought or the appearance of such. I haven't even fully examined your recent posting but I saw the rad aisa question and it struck me on the surface if that makes sense.

I do think that but your more recent batch of posts was better. I am slightly conflicted on how to read you because I know your main and I have seen you a lot as one alignment. If I take that into account I think you are significantly townier than if I don't but from a regular player perspective your posts feel very easy to fake and the push on Juice especially isn't great

[Ausuka]

That does help a little tbf

[Ausuka]

Yes, I was wrong about Juice. So was half the game, and Juice was an anomaly by actively playing against the game, up to and including xyr self hammer. It's why I haven't put any effort into wagon analysis, Juice undermined whatever could have been learned by that by refusing to elaborate on anything when asked, and hammering xyrself instead of making someone else pull the trigger. I don't regret voting there, nor do I think there are any useful lessons to be learned. Had Juice played Mafia instead, xe probably would have lived for one, but if they hadn't and if it were my fault, yeah I probably would have stepped back to reevaluate things after.

Juice was an easy push for scum to make because xe acted in such a silly way. I think there were definitely scum pushing that wagon

[Ausuka]

scumread marci, therefore you must be scum".
- However, both town and scum can have bad justification for their reads, so bad justification is actually approximately NAI.
- You pointed out the bad justification and seemed uninterested in contemplating a world in which this bad justification came from town.

So you think my scumread is bad and that because I'm pushing a read which is NAI I am scum?

[Ausuka]

Yes, I was wrong about Juice. So was half the game, and Juice was an anomaly by actively playing against the game, up to and including xyr self hammer. It's why I haven't put any effort into wagon analysis, Juice undermined whatever could have been learned by that by refusing to elaborate on anything when asked, and hammering xyrself instead of making someone else pull the trigger. I don't regret voting there, nor do I think there are any useful lessons to be learned. Had Juice played Mafia instead, xe probably would have lived for one, but if they hadn't and if it were my fault, yeah I probably would have stepped back to reevaluate things after.

Juice was an easy push for scum to make because xe acted in such a silly way. I think there were definitely scum pushing that wagon

Or they saw what was happening and knowing xe would likely go down without them pushing it stayed off of it. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps I should be going back and looking for unnatural defenses of Juice... I'll follow up on this later

I mean, I just disagree. There were definitely people who acknowledged bad play does not mean scum

[Ausuka]

Is it just me or does the above post not make much sense?

scumread marci, therefore you must be scum".
- However, both town and scum can have bad justification for their reads, so bad justification is actually approximately NAI.
- You pointed out the bad justification and seemed uninterested in contemplating a world in which this bad justification came from town.

So you think my scumread is bad and that because I'm pushing a read which is NAI I am scum?

That is a pretty fair summary, yes.
Like I'd never say that pushing a read which is NAI means someone is scum in itself, but the way you are pushing it seems scummy, yes.

So why can't I believe that the way RR pushed marci coming into the day, pinning the Hiraki kill on her right away, is scummy

[Ausuka]

asuska is scum question mark

Why?

[Ausuka]

Ausuka hasn't really shown much sign that they're re-evaluating their read on RR after my comments. It could be that they are engaging with the game just not explicitly talking about this in their posts, it could be that they're just busy etc. but on the whole this seems +scum, they seem pretty comfortable there.

I'm comfortable on RR because I don't really have any alternative targets primarily

I'm not super sure RR is scum but there are a lot of people who I would rate around neutral. Like I don't think I know how to read Johnny or Marci very well for example

[Ausuka]

I think Johnny feels scummy actually but I might be biased because he was scum last game

[Ausuka]

If I had to put a finger on it he feels overly equivocal. The semi push on Marci where he's like "she might be scum but I can't push her", the read on Herta in 385 and the callout of Meg without ever really talking about them, all feels kind of eh.

[Ausuka]

I would say the Marco push and the Herta read aren't really scummy independently but play into a worrying trend. I think the part where he says Meg is the most likely player to be scum but spends his time pushing other people is just bad.

[Ausuka]

Why are you arguing against my point and voting Johnny anyway

[Ausuka]

Ok uh Very Little is happening so
VOTE: Johnny

[Ausuka]

I'm not particularly confident in any of my reads but at least I'm not going to let Johnny endgame me again

[Ausuka]

dumb af reasoms by ausuka

VOTE: marci

[Ausuka]

yeah whatever.

[Ausuka]

I guess marci isn't. That makes me wonder about ausuka's marci vote now.

I have no desire to just watch Marci call me dumb and do nothing constructive while I'm trying to find an elimination that can go through that could flip scum.

If she's town oh well, maybe we can be more productive tomorrow.

[Ausuka]

Like it's near deadline, I try to find an elimination that can go through, give my reasons and what does Marci do? Call me dumb af and not engage at all

What am I supposed to do with that. She can die for all I care.

[Ausuka]

I mean I don't particularly scumread Marci no.

That doesn't mean it's purely a grudge vote - we don't have much time until deadline iirc, and because people in this game are largely inactive so I worry a bit about no elimination which would be the worst possible option

If Marci is being obstructive it's easier to just kill her

[Ausuka]

Idk not really ~feeling~ Herta rn

[Ausuka]

I think the push on aisa is counterintuitive for scum here

If Herta is scum this seems like a fair step up from their multiple previous scum games I've seen?

[Ausuka]

Why don't you want Johnny dead exactly

[Ausuka]

>.>

[Ausuka]

ok uh hi guys

i'm cool with massclaim and everything!! am moving tomorrow and am busy irl, etc

i will claim whenever

[Ausuka]

I am a patient!

[Ausuka]

ok well meg is probably town I guess

Theoretically this could just be cop Vs 2 goons or something but I don't think Ircher would put effort into that and I'm not convinced meg would do this as scum either

So fmpov it's aisa/Herta, Johnny/Herta or aisa/Johnny, in reverse order of probability

[Ausuka]

hi sorry for being lazy!!

aisa: i don't think i thought about that post too deeply. i was just noting the flavour stuff confused me

assuming you mean 'who do you think was scum pushing the wagon' - well it has to be herta or johnny or both! i think johnny is the most likely scum fwiw, i haven't liked him for a while and wanted to yeet him yesterday

[Ausuka]

i kind of think that is +scum? like, it's definitely something town *could* think but it also seems like the kinda waffly stuff scum tend to love

[Ausuka]

i mean i don't think that post being a word vomit is something anyone was unaware of? yes, you can obviously press the point against herta, but i think it seems pretty likely for scum there to hedge so they can go against herta if it looks viable to do so but don't commit to pushing him

[Ausuka]

i think scum might just like, also not care that much?

[Ausuka]

i mean fmpov the teams are like

meg and you are trying

herta and johnny don't post much as either alignment

idk if there's much to be gained by lack-of-resistance or whatever

it could be meg but eh i do not really see it

[Ausuka]

Hi I'm really sorry for lurking!!

[Ausuka]

Um, not scum with anyone but Johnnyfarrar I guess lole

[Ausuka]

Oh shit the deadline

VOTE: Johnny

Yeet

[Ausuka]

Rip

[Ausuka]

But are you actually jk or are you srs

[Ausuka]

I love how early on I was taking this game so seriously and now we're just like

Yeah we can Yeet Johnny I guess that's fine

[Ausuka]

Well unless one of us is trolling Johnny probably is indeed a wolf

[Ausuka]

grr maths is scary

[Ausuka]

Ok well the big issue here is that we almost ran out of time and you didn't vote and I think it is mechanically pretty unlikely that aisa is scum because of that

[Ausuka]

I mean I'm not voting because I wanted to see if you had a convincing argument that my thinking was wrong.

The argument is that if we hadn't eliminated anyone mafia would have won the game so mafia are unlikely to post and vote

[Ausuka]

Right. So you and aisa coming in with just a few hours left rather than me coming in a bit later during twilight and seeing a hammer shows what exactly?

It shows that mafia were willing to vote for their buddy which directly eliminates a path to victory

It's possible but it would take a convincing argument to overcome the higher probability that they, uh, did not do that

[Ausuka]

Who is "they" here? And if it's aisa why wouldn't a scum!aisa figure that the two town _are_ going to come in and hammer johnny? When is the last time you saw a no lim in elo?

i mean, you said yourself you came in after deadline, yes? so if one of us was scum we basically threw there

to be fair, you could argue scum didn't know that and was playing it safe, which is true. but considering the general lack of activity within this game, i dont think theres that much motivation to take that step

[Ausuka]

Also have a question for Aus - was it coincidence that you appeared one minute after I voted?

i don't think so? iirc i clicked on this because it came up in my egosearch and then i was like 'oh god i had no idea deadline was this close'

[Ausuka]

Aus - you just missed out on an opportunity to claim it was a big brain play and that you were waiting to see if I would post which I was thinking would have been +town. Sure though, I have nothing against seeing a thread in your egosearch and deciding to post there!

I'm not smart enough for that!

[Ausuka]

I think aisa is the more likely scum by play because if this is scum galron it's a big big big improvement

But i can't get over the deadline thing >.>

i mean, marci came into the thread calling my (correct) push on johnny scummy without actually engaging at all, or like talking to me about it, just like "ur dumb lol" and refusing to vote for the viable elimination there. im not sure what else i was meant to do. and like if i'm being honest people calling me dumb is like... my pet peeve i guess is a word for it? it's something that i really did not want to hear from marci in that moment.

[Ausuka]

No hammer

[Ausuka]

Whee I'm clear

Actually this is bad because I don't want to hammer but whatever

[Ausuka]

I get the impression Aus would prefer to just lurk a bit in the background and let Herta and I generate the content. I can see why they'd like that, as much as I wish it did not feel like I am talking into a void.

LMAO i'm sorry!! i have been like really busy lately with starting uni and everything and this has fallen onto the wayside. I will do this but it's sort of intimidating and i'm supposed to be reading a paper about dance right now!!!! i signed up for a bachelor of science in geography I desperately want to be doing ANYTHING ELSE

[Ausuka]

ok we still have 4 days

I will try and do something small tonight maybe and something bigger tomorrow??

[Ausuka]

Ok my first original thought is

On n2 rr's reads on our two lovely suspects are
- Aisa is maybe town but paranoid/sus of her
- Herta is town

And they townread Johnny??

Is there a reason why we think RR died because I don't see why a herta/johnny team does this

pedit: thanks!

[Ausuka]

I mean is there a reason an Aisa/Johnny team does this?

It doesn't make a massive amount of sense but it makes somewhat more sense I think since they were starting to express suspicion of you??

I guess I can check the situation again

[Ausuka]

I'm mostly in the same position as before, though I do have a nervousness that Aisa might be pocketing me, I don't really want to confront that until there's more reason to suspect her otherwise

This is the post that I'm referring to

I think given that on n2 you're in a good position eliminating RR makes some amount of sense?

[Ausuka]

I was going to type something out but I'd be interested to hear what herta thinks on this topic

Fwiw I don't think hiraki said much meaningful about either of you? So

[Ausuka]

I promise I will engage with the points you raised as well, Aisa! I just had limited time tonight so wanted to go through the first things that came to mind. I'll try to make time tomorrow afternoon for this after my lectures

[Ausuka]

ok i'm kind of tired but i'm here to DO SHIT

first step is to respond to what aisa wrote, which i will do tonight

what i don't get done tonight i will try and do tomorrow since i have the day off

[Ausuka]

To be clear, I think there are reasons to tr Ausuka based off that hammer. I don't think the yolo, might-as-well-yeet-Johnny-hehe attitude comes from scum or if it does it's pretty well executed.

That's not your stated reason for clearing them though and I just don't think your argument really works. Also this:

I think you came in with 4 hours left and it's oh shit the deadline. Like you didn't know there was one. Actually 1 minute before aisa votes. And somehow I'm supposed to believe that scum doesn't bus there? Actually scum probably lets it ride and sees if I do come in and hammer.

i kind of think that is +scum? like, it's definitely something town *could* think but it also seems like the kinda waffly stuff scum tend to love

why does scum make this post a day before deadline?

Ah, I actually want to mention this: maybe we should worry about Johnny going down a little too easily here? What do people think scum is likely to want in this gamestate? If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag.

Wait for it...
...
Yes, I'm here to discuss Meg possibly being the mastermind behind it all xx

Here's a defense of johnny right after that which makes sense coming from scum.

it's clear I've got work to do.

So scum busses Johnny, but Ausuka sussing Johnny is towny and me considering options other than Johnny is scummy?

To emphasise this,

FOS Herta

I think herta's argument here makes some sense fwiw - while I think you voting johnny there is definitely +town if he's town it can't be both of us and I see where he's coming from in that, like, if I'm scum I don't hammer there lol

And you fosing meg there is kind of ehh? I want to go over that but I don't think it's unreasonable to express suspicion of it

[Ausuka]

I did ask Aus this yesterday, Aus can make their own mind up as to whether this counts as trying to sort them:

Also have a question for Aus - was it coincidence that you appeared one minute after I voted?

I think it does to some extent, for what it's worth! Although I think I'd appreciate you explaining the thought behind that question. I don't know if it'll be useful but it might be!

[Ausuka]

Scum smelling a wagon and deciding to make a push for it xx

I've read through your case and while I think some of the things you point out can be written off as herta being herta I think this is a good point and his juice push does indeed not look great

[Ausuka]

ugghh sorry my brain isnt working i gotta sleep

i double triple promise to do more tomorrow

[Ausuka]

Juice is obvious at this point right. Let's just move on.

I think the primary reason why your push on Juice looks bad is this

It shows confidence which I don't think town should really have in this situation at all so it looks fake

[Ausuka]

okkk we have 2 days

i am tired as fuck but

i will check out johnnys iso real quick

[Ausuka]

ok so like

he pushes herta

but never votes there so

????

he just never mentions aisa, like, ever

idk what to make of this

[Ausuka]

i mean johnny in his most recent scum game isn't much help because like

scamper is townread for most of the game and he defends them?

i mean he's clearly *capable* of mentioning his scum partners

i guess it's possible he just decided Fuck It I'm Not Doing That ???

[Ausuka]

Ah, I actually want to mention this: maybe we should worry about Johnny going down a little too easily here? What do people think scum is likely to want in this gamestate? If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag.

Wait for it...
...
Yes, I'm here to discuss Meg possibly being the mastermind behind it all xx

Aisa i'm really sorry if you already said this and already forgot it but

Can you elaborate on your thoughts here. like my impression is that johnny's effort level is going to be consistently fairly low in any scenario and am wondering why you think otherwise

pedit: im tired ok

[Ausuka]

And i think some people do avoid mentioning their scum partners to not do the associative thing!!!

I guess it is true that it's pretty rare though

[Ausuka]

Ok, I've done some looking at stuff without commenting on it throughout the day. I think I've asked what I need to ask. I still feel conflicted to some degree, and this is a fairly close decision, but I don't want to run this down to deadline. I think there are several points leading me to this - Aisa voting for Johnny, the Juice wagon thing, the fact that Aisa shading Meg and pseudo defending Johnny looks bad but actually I think is counterintuitive for scum in that position? And I think Johnny shading Herta and never voting there while just not talking about Aisa looks worse for Herta than Aisa. In any case, sorry if I'm wrong, etc

VOTE: Herta

[Ausuka]

GG if you're scum aisa this was well deserved

[Ausuka]

rip