Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[Aisa]

Hi everyone! xx

I'm gonna make you an offer you'd be a fool to refuse. Based on their post Herta looks like the kind of player who would make one one-liner post a day, let's elim them so we never have to worry about reading them again?

marci, you in?

VOTE: Herta

[Aisa]

I was sort of gushing about the theme of this game because radiology is cool and it spiralled into having a little Google for bunny-and-radiology images and I found this extremely cute - hmm,

thing

, I don't want to spoil it:

Spoiler: image

Public service announcement: everyone is by law required to agree with me about the cuteness content of this image or face elimination.

[Aisa]

Hmm, right. If people find the image a little unsettling I don't want to force them to think it's cute, so I think I should acknowledge it can be a bit unsettling.

[Aisa]

Fishing for a reaction.

What did you think I was going to say? I mean this as a genuine question, not in a passive-aggressive way.

[Aisa]

My oh my, what a wholesome smiley face, Juice.

Fishing for a reaction.

What did you think I was going to say? I mean this as a genuine question, not in a passive-aggressive way.

Why would you think I'm lhf instead of scum?

Had to Google lhf and the first result was Latvian Hockey Federation, lol.

I didn't particularly think you were low-hanging fruit in the sense of a good elimination. Nor did I think you were scum, it was just one of those posts you make in RVS.

Hey Juice, do you think I'm town?

[Aisa]

[...]

Stop dodging the question, do you or do you not believe Herta to be a member of the Latvian Hockey Federation?

That I am yet to determine. I do, however, believe Juice and Johnny to be the constituent members of the Beige Hat Duo.

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Ooh ok I reread it and I suppose the rat in "never trust a rat" is not the animal.
I kind of liked it better when I thought it did refer to the animal, though. VOTE: Juice

P-edit: if I ask the fae nicely do you think I can get a beige hat too?

[Aisa]

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Weird post.

What's weird about it?

Two more people can hammer me right now - I don't care about dying Day 1 in a mafia game. Everyone on the wagon - would look DAF though afterwards for pushing a RVS wagon

Suppose this wagon on you never went away. Suppose two more people came along, voted you, and you got eliminated really quickly.
I feel like you would have to make a distinction between the people who were on the wagon first and the people who came along later? Like surely the person who cast the final hammer would be more at fault that those who came earlier. Would you agree?

[Aisa]

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Weird post.

What's weird about it?

Two more people can hammer me right now - I don't care about dying Day 1 in a mafia game. Everyone on the wagon - would look DAF though afterwards for pushing a RVS wagon

Suppose this wagon on you never went away. Suppose two more people came along, voted you, and you got eliminated really quickly.
I feel like you would have to make a distinction between the people who were on the wagon first and the people who came along later? Like surely the person who cast the final hammer would be more at fault that those who came earlier. Would you agree?

By your own logic - doesn't that technically make you the scummiest on the wagon currently? Freudian?

VOTE: Aisa

Yes and no. I guess I think it's more complex than someone's positioning on a wagon and depends on what their motivation is. What do you think my motivation is?

I felt like your original argument boiled down to "putting me at E-2 is dangerous because I could get hammered quickly". It felt like that was ignoring the fact, as RR said, that if two people just came along and quickhammered you they would face a lot of scrutiny the next day.

If your argument is more along the lines of "putting me at E-2 is opportunistic, turns my wagon into a Real Wagon and sets the stage for me to be possibly eliminated later on" I think that's fairer.

Is there anything you wanna know about my thinking that would help you read me here?

[Aisa]

What do you mean by clownish? Also could u elaborate on the juice thought because I don't see it and am also not sure if you're townreading them for it

i don't have a read on juice im just saying they seem self absorbed

r u saying ur not town bb

ok but what do u mean by clownish I want to know

I think you've done it in a townie, not worried about anything, sorta way.

wheres asuska i miss fighting with someone

Is there a reason you haven't replied to Ausuka, marci?

[Aisa]

Putting me at L-2 is pretty strange behaviour - certainly not very town orientated.

This doesn't hold up. Are you scared of quick hammers?

I'm acknowledging that I read your post, though I don't know what they mean.

Any new thoughts on Juice now you've had a little time to think about it? Anyone else catch your eye for town or scum?

[Aisa]

Ehh I'm struggling to discriminate between this being a valid read and marci's sorta-early-tr-on-me feeling me with serotonin.
BUT I've tried my best and I'm feeling kinda good about marci!

Is there a reason you haven't replied to Ausuka, marci?

yes, ausuka already knows what i mean shes just playing dumb.

like literally "same clowness as last game" is so hard to understand apparently

I like the angle she's chosen here. "Ausuka is just playing dumb". It feels a bit too speculative and unserious. In a way that suggests towniness to me.

literally what im saying is ur acting the same as last game whats so hard to understand about that?!?!?

Imagine being this married to "what I'm saying is very clear" as scum

Anyone disagree with me?

[Aisa]

Idk I'm not sure it really makes sense that you hadn't really given any thoughts at that point. You're hanging onto the fact that marci's reasoning doesn't make sense but I'm not really sure it's the kind of read that is supposed to be, you know, deeply thought out. I'm not sure this line of questioning is likely to shed much light.

[Aisa]

Mehh I can grudgingly respect that

[Aisa]

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

Kind of a token contribution to ensure I don't get caught by the prod timer, but RL willing I will probably be around again in a couple hours.

[Aisa]

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them

I mean, I was asking a question and she repeatedly dodged it and started being hostile, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do in that situation.

I mean, it's easier said than done, but the theoretical answer is to disengage. In the same way you wouldn't push Enchant for only making one-liner posts. I feel like your reasoning here is just the tiniest bit reachy and it's slightly +scum.

In any case, I specifically asked Juice about this rather than, like Hikari or something because I wanted to hear it from xem and I'm a bit curious to why you would answer this question for xem when xe is your main suspect?

It was all part of the same stream of consciousness. As in "ooh the SvS thought kinda makes sense but there are these other things I dislike". The part of my mind that resolves contradictions in my writing just went on annual leave for a while because it's been working overtime and really deserves a spa retreat :3

Spoiler: meme

[Aisa]

I was gonna delight you all with the "super interesting" fact about myself that while I love E-2, I hate E-1, but Meg has deprived me of the opportunity to do so.

Anyway, I am confused but I will deal with this tomorrow. UNVOTE: Juice

[Aisa]

I am also keen to see Juice answer the questions xe has been asked.

I said I was going to look into Aisa's past games. I did, but so many of them were from years ago that I don't think it's particularly useful.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? [...]

I'm not sure how productive it is to write a detailed answer to the other points in your post so far, but I can cover them if it's something you would like. But it seems worth quickly pointing out that that sentence is supposed to mean "the fact xe answers questions selectively + [the fact] xyr tone [is a bit snappy] [means] xe warrants further investigation" if that makes sense?

[Aisa]

Actually -

[...]

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

I think this is the scummiest thing in the game so far. What does "xyr tone would benefit from further investigation" really even mean? It also feels like unnaturally hedgey. Instead of just like, pressuring Juice, or really make the case that ye is scum here, she's really emphasising the weakness of the read. It feels like she's trying to appear super reasonable and stay under the radar more than solve the game. I guess a good way to put it is that she's more focused on looking like she's sorting Juice than actually sorting Juice here.
[...]

In that post I specifically said this:

Kind of a token contribution to ensure I don't get caught by the prod timer, but RL willing I will probably be around again in a couple hours.

and that was specifically meant to explain why it was a less meaty/focused/pushing post. Is that something you're factoring into your read?

[Aisa]

Hmm, I'm thinking it might make sense to townlean you here.

I was conflicted because your push on me had kinda pinged me:

I think I want to vote for either Aisa or Herta but I am not sure which right now. Aisa I think feels the scummiest based on play; she does not feel particularly genuine, there's the thing I pointed out, I feel that the juice push is really easy and her approach towards xem feels unnecessarily passive I guess? Like, it feels like she's holding back and trying to appear super reasonable. I will have to check her past games to see how alignment indicative this actually is.

Herta's vote on Marci is the worst and while I don't think his play is like *that* scummy I think the jump on her is ?probably? More likely to come from scum than Hiraki and Juice and if I'm looking for scum on the Marci wagon I would start there

- "Does not feel particularly genuine" is just kind of random shading I can't say much about,
- The thing you pointed out I'll give you probably looks bad from your pov, but in my mind it made complete sense so my immediate, knee-jerk reaction was that you were trying to force something,
- You said the Juice push was really easy and then proceeded to vote xem yourself. In fact now that I reread it you had already sussed Juice at the time:

Spoiler:

[...]
I think Juice's hop on the wagon looks really bad. Whether that makes xem scum I am uncertain but I would definitely like them to elaborate on xeir vote at the very least.

UNVOTE:

Niche theory, but it is even possible that you were worried about Juice being an easy wagon yourself and sort of ended up projecting that onto me. I'll vaguely mention that there are a couple more small details but I'll contain myself and stop here =P

However,

on further consideration I think there is stuff in your ISO that's actually quite promising. I like some of your explanation about your interaction with marci, but I'll try to talk about something else for the sake of not making too big a deal out of that.

Spoiler:

[...]
i kind of townlean hiraki for that reason btw because like, I don't think calling everyone scummy without specifying is likely to get townread at all and i think calling me weird is like, something scum is less likely to do because they are generally more concerned with their image and doing so has very little benefit - i don't think he would make that post expecting to get townread for it, if that makes sense

This seems to show a solvey mindset. I also think it's sort of a difficult line of reasoning to come up with as scum.

Also, post 190 is just really... comprehensive. One detail I like is this:

Spoiler:

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a reach and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes.

I mean, I didn't say I like details a lot, that was your characterisation of my play. I didn't think giving a lot of detail was necessary there, but I'll elaborate here. [...]

because I think there is some probability that if Hiraki is town here, scum gets a bit "spooked" and doesn't say that they didn't think lots of detail was necessary.

To conclude, I think some of the towny stuff you've posted probably outweighs the parts I dislike about your push on me. I just think faking e.g. 190 would require a certain level of skill as scum. I haven't ruled out the possibility you are capable of this as scum and this is sort of a note to self to think about this more.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the simple, easy, plain interpretation leans towards you!town.

[Aisa]

Where to now?

I am still interested in Juice answering the questions asked of them. I think enough questions have been asked so I'm not going to add any to the pile.

I understand I need to take a wider look at other players in this game, I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

In the abstract sense, yes, clogging up a thread with nonsense that also separates the two partners is a potential scumstrat. In this particular case though I believe that Ausuka is just as frustrated as she presents herself to be, and that marci is feeding and encouraging that frustration on purpose. It could be for nefarious ends, it could just be that they enjoy it. But because Ausuka's reactions appear genuine, it rules out SvS in my mind. Either or neither could feasibly be scum, but probably not both. If I were told one of them MUST be I'd pick marci first, but for now I'd rather just move on and let other things play out.
[...]

I think I'd like you to touch a little on whether you still think Ausuka is genuine? And maybe like a brief comment on what seems genuine about her reaction if that seems appropriate.

[Aisa]

Where to now?

vote meg its a good vote i promise

I wonder what would happen if I asked you why. Shall we conduct this test?
..."Why?"

Spoiler: quote

Where to now?

I am still interested in Juice answering the questions asked of them. I think enough questions have been asked so I'm not going to add any to the pile.

I understand I need to take a wider look at other players in this game, I'll try to do that tomorrow.

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

In the abstract sense, yes, clogging up a thread with nonsense that also separates the two partners is a potential scumstrat. In this particular case though I believe that Ausuka is just as frustrated as she presents herself to be, and that marci is feeding and encouraging that frustration on purpose. It could be for nefarious ends, it could just be that they enjoy it. But because Ausuka's reactions appear genuine, it rules out SvS in my mind. Either or neither could feasibly be scum, but probably not both. If I were told one of them MUST be I'd pick marci first, but for now I'd rather just move on and let other things play out.
[...]

I think I'd like you to touch a little on whether you still think Ausuka is genuine? And maybe like a brief comment on what seems genuine about her reaction if that seems appropriate.

Did you see this

@RR

?

[Aisa]

I mean, you got around to answering it eventually and that's what matters. Thanks!
Just realising I kinda messed up because I told myself I would not talk too much about the interaction yesterday, but I feel weird without at least quickly acknowledging what you've said. I'll try to wrap-up this up quickly: re-reading the interaction keeping in mind what you said doesn't really make it "click" for me that Ausuka is town, but I guess it's not a crucial debate right now because the other bits I found towny yesterday are still a thing.

[...]

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

Your gut says being disengenuous is towny?

In this fashion, I've seen it done more as town than as scum. It's not anything I'd like to bet on but it's something I'd use if I had to bet on it.

@Meg

, did you take anything from Hiraki's response? Is there anyone you're suspicious of aside from Juice?

VOTE: Juice

no

@marci

, are you sussing Meg or defending Juice or both?

[Aisa]

VOTE: Juice
I can't even like you can't just sus everything that moves ;_; do you even have any townreads at all
what even is your read on Meg

[Aisa]

UNVOTE:
Because actually putting xem at E-1 is a bad idea and actually ending the day is a bad idea, but I wouldn't cry if someone happened to hammer before I had time to make this post (thanks Lucian-from-my-last-game for giving me the words to express myself)

[Aisa]

To explain what's going on in my head, my thing is Juice keeps just randomly calling people scum and there doesn't seem to be any attempt to actually explain why. ik this is something people have said before. I understand they have said that they play like this to generate reactions. And they did.

What I

specifically

dislike is that any push can be justified under the guise of "just reaction testing hehe " and they are not giving much else to back it up.

Their OMGUSsy reaction is also frankly not helping things though I probably can't see things clearly there atm.

[Aisa]

juice is clearly town

It's funny I keep getting in this situation, but there is a very natural question to ask here...
Why?

[Aisa]

Radiologist is a bad thing to lose I bet

I also read that incorrectly

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
It would really help if you could state one read with some motivation behind it. I know you posted this catch-up post, I'm looking for one consolidated stance.

I literally won last game as scum in part because people don't trust Marci for playing like this.

Aussie you were there.

Were you trying to say that marci is town here? What were you specifically trying to accomplish with this post?

[Aisa]

Hi I'm Aisa and I'm here to talk about why I'm not feeling Ausuka's posts in the Ausuka-RR interaction.

Spoiler:

I think RR opening the day pushing that Marci killed Hiraki because his theory from early game was correct is really slimy when Hiraki had been pushing RR for like a long time

Pedit: Maybe you should've taken English classes at clown school

It starts off ok. I also read this and thought that RR's push was kind of an odd angle, given that Hiraki's most memorable stance to me was the really strong scumread on RR.

Spoiler:

I think RR opening the day pushing that Marci killed Hiraki because his theory from early game was correct is really slimy when Hiraki had been pushing RR for like a long time

Pedit: Maybe you should've taken English classes at clown school

Yeah, that's fair. From my perspective, his push on me can't be relevant to the kill, so I was looking at who else he was pushing, but I of course have no way of proving that to you

That makes some sense but also like, it's hard to believe the fact Hiraki was pushing town most loudly from your pov didn't lead you to other conclusions - like he was probably killed for being widely townread, or maybe mafia somehow caught on he was a PR. The way you seem to like, instantly come up with a scumpool of me and marci at daystart is kind of sus to me. After strongly pushing Juice as scum it's a convenient pivot to have available.

I kind of liked RR's response and I think that the human mind works in mysterious ways and I'm not sure why they find it so hard to believe that RR could have just come up with the thought.

Spoiler:

My thinking was that he was widely townread, yes, but that having a widely townread slot alive to push wagons on Town would be quite good for scum, and they could kill him later on once he stopped being useful. So I find it more likely scum felt threatened by him in some way, and while he was indeed pushing me the most verbally... his vote was on marci.

I mean, the game would be nice and easy if it was a good strategy to always eliminate the people the nightkill was scumreading, but I think we both know that isn't true? I wouldn't have a problem if you brought it up as a point against Marci but the fact you didn't really seem to do much evaluation and used Hiraki to make your push even though he was scumreading you feels slimy to me.

Bit dodgy they're pushing the rodent (sorry, I just like that nickname too much, I hope you like it too RR) for "not doing much evaluation" on their first post of the day.

Spoiler:

Of course it isn't true always, but I think it is here, and I don't have much else to go on right now. Juice wagon is frustratingly uninformative because of xyr "playstyle," plus the self-hammer. By play alone, I townread most people alive here. Herta's entrance wasn't great, but the rest of his posting has been fine. Marci's the only one who doesn't seem to fit here, and it lines up with Hiraki's death, the only issue is that I don't really know who the partner could be. I'm obviously townreading someone I shouldn't be, but even so for now marci's the only one I'm comfortable voting.

What exactly about Herta do you townread?

I'd like to know why juice? You didn't get at them specifically in your catch up.

This is the main one for me. It's a genuine probing question, upon seeing something that doesn't make sense to him. It's also worth noting that Herta was scumreading and voting Juice at this point, and as scum he would probably not be questioning a wagon he wanted to flip, so it reads more like actually trying to gauge Johnny than anything else.

I feel like that's super easy to fake. Like, it's just a request for clarification? It's really NAI. What about it do you find genuine?

This seems pretty NAI, included for completeness.

Spoiler:

and as scum he would probably not be questioning a wagon he wanted to flip

I mean, it's not like asking a simple question for clarification threatens the wagon at all? I don't understand this take either

I agree RR's logic here is not airtight, but it doesn't have to be airtight for it to be a genuine read. It feels like Ausuka is being deliberately tunnelly. Like they seem more interested in poking holes in RR's logic here than in actually trying to assess if RR is coming from a towny mindset.

Spoiler:

Yes, it could be fake. Anything could be fake. You could be faking this entire conversation, as could I. And I reserve the right to change my mind if he does something more overtly scummy later on, but for now I believe it.

Yes, it could be fake. Anything could be fake. You could be faking this entire conversation, as could I. And I reserve the right to change my mind if he does something more overtly scummy later on, but for now I believe it.

Yes, nothing is impossible to be fake. But this is so incredibly easy for scum to do that I really do not think it is town indicative at all and struggle to see why you believe that it is. It is literally just a short request for clarification.

Have you ever heard of a tone read or a vibe read (<3)? I think this is the worst post of the bunch and seems pretty forced. Ausuka Feels Deliberately Tunnelly: The Sequel.

[Aisa]

I think carrot face may be town

1. Happy scumday!
2. Who... who is carrot face?!

By the way, I will unironically write a haiku for anyone who can understands how to read marci and can explain it to me. If a haiku is not attractive enough I could be persuaded to do a whole sonnet or even an MS paint doodle xx

[Aisa]

By the way, I will unironically write a haiku for anyone who can understands how to read marci and can explain it to me. If a haiku is not attractive enough I could be persuaded to do a whole sonnet or even an MS paint doodle xx

i can read marci i think....

just ask me questions bb

The reason I haven't asked you questions directly is that I got the impression you weren't very likely to answer them, but sure. Did you consider at all that that was why I wasn't asking you questions?

You're voting RR now, but you haven't done much to push them. Why not? Like I have ideas and I know this kind of seems like a dumb question if you're town because *your playstyle*, it would still be useful to hear it in your own words I guess.

Aside: I originally wrote a version of this reply trying to imitate marci's tone but I couldn't figure out a way of wording it and posting it without seeming like I was making fun of her which is not my intention at all. I still kinda want to show the world my marci impression though, so there you go:

Spoiler:

i thought you didnt like answering questions bb, why do u want me to ask u questions now

my second question is
you're voting rr but ur not pushing them
why

[...]

1. Why is marci carrot face and not the rabbit?

2. Why is marci Town?

1. I don't think the rabbit is town right now.

2. Just a feeling I get from her being so talkative and combative.

You didn't answer the right question and I do kinda want to know :puppy-eyes:
Also I saw you calling me the rabbit, rodent

[Aisa]

I agree RR's logic here is not airtight, but it doesn't have to be airtight for it to be a genuine read. It feels like Ausuka is being deliberately tunnelly. Like they seem more interested in poking holes in RR's logic here than in actually trying to assess if RR is coming from a towny mindset.

I don't think this applies here. First of all, I'm really not tunneling - I townleaned RR d1 and only just started scumreading them. Secondly, I think the holes in the logic are *exactly why* RR comes off as not having a towny mindset. I don't believe that after Hiraki is nightkilled, someone who had been pushing RR, RR assumes Hiraki was killed for his reads, when they know Hiraki was vocally wrong about at least one thing. It comes off as too convenient, allowing them to pivot into scumreading Marci at the start of today - after pushing Juice Marci is the logical next easy target for scum because neither of them have any self preservation and both say things that make no sense.

I agree you are not tunnelling according to the correct definition of the word. My bad. I guess the expression of "she seems more interested in poking holes in RR's logic than in actually trying to assess [...] RR [...]" is closer to the best version of my argument.

Your explanation now does clarify what you meant by "a convenient push", so that's nice.

I think I understand that you are claiming RR is scum because you find the holes in their logic scummy, I don't think that's a convincing rebuttal to my point that you seem interested in poking holes in RR's logic.

Like, I think the holes in the logic are not particularly difficult to understand. You also found this an odd angle. RR is not a new player. Why should I believe that their thought process is genuine? The simplest explanation is that RR was looking for a pivot into Marci and planned to use the Hiraki kill as an excuse to do so while also eliminating their biggest critic from the game.

I do agree with you there are holes in the logic, it's not a super convincing push. I found your reaction disproportionate to the hole in the logic, if that makes sense.

Have you ever heard of a tone read or a vibe read (<3)? I think this is the worst post of the bunch and seems pretty forced. Ausuka Feels Deliberately Tunnelly: The Sequel.

And yeah, obviously I've heard of a tone read. That doesn't mean I'm just going to accept any read and not question it. It's absolutely possible that RR is town here and I just don't understand their angle. But given how simple Herta's post is, I think claiming to townread it is scum indicative. It makes it seem more likely they are tailoring the evidence to fit the reads rather than the other way around.

I think claiming to townread that post is pretty null. The emphasis you're putting on assessing logic just feels like it could be a pretty nice way to create red tape, so to speak. If we're gonna poke holes in people's logic we could be here for many weeks.

I guess that in terms of making me think you're town your reply just doesn't do anything for me, unfortunately. I think you've explained what your position is and I believe I understand it, but the fact it seems like a restatement of the points you've already made leaves me a bit tepid. Let's change the topic a bit maybe, feel free to talk to me about anything other than that interaction. This is probably my last post today because *gestures vaguely at her life rn* but I'll be around tomorrow.

[Aisa]

Oops, sorry, misjudged how much time I would have today and I am afraid I'm going to have to do a naked prodge

[Aisa]

I think I understand that you are claiming RR is scum because you find the holes in their logic scummy, I don't think that's a convincing rebuttal to my point that you seem interested in poking holes in RR's logic.

I really don't understand this point. I've explained why I am "poking holes" RR's logic; I don't think the position they showed at the start of the day is genuine and I think it meets a scum agenda. You can make the point I'm doing this as much as you like but you don't really explain why this means I'm not assessing RR.

Not to mention you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing me of doing! You are trying to poke holes in my argument to the end of arguing that my position isn't genuine! I don't think that's inherently a problem - it's a common tactic used in mafia games - but doing it while arguing it's somehow fundamentally flawed and scummy is really strange to me.

Here is my best attempt to explain what my point was.

Initially I thought the following:
- Let's assume that the NK is a bad reason to scumread marci.
- You saw RR use the one-line post as a reason to sr marci and went "Aha! That's a bad reason to scumread marci, therefore you must be scum".
- However, both town and scum can have bad justification for their reads, so bad justification is actually approximately NAI.
- You pointed out the bad justification and seemed uninterested in contemplating a world in which this bad justification came from town.

You said this in response:

Spoiler:

I agree RR's logic here is not airtight, but it doesn't have to be airtight for it to be a genuine read. It feels like Ausuka is being deliberately tunnelly. Like they seem more interested in poking holes in RR's logic here than in actually trying to assess if RR is coming from a towny mindset.

I don't think this applies here. First of all, I'm really not tunneling - I townleaned RR d1 and only just started scumreading them. Secondly, I think the holes in the logic are *exactly why* RR comes off as not having a towny mindset. I don't believe that after Hiraki is nightkilled, someone who had been pushing RR, RR assumes Hiraki was killed for his reads, when they know Hiraki was vocally wrong about at least one thing. It comes off as too convenient, allowing them to pivot into scumreading Marci at the start of today - after pushing Juice Marci is the logical next easy target for scum because neither of them have any self preservation and both say things that make no sense.

I give you that you did explain why you don't think RR's position is genuine. However, this reads to me like you are doubling down - am I correct that you are essentially saying "I don't believe this justification comes from town"?
I think it's completely fine for you to think so if you are town, but FMPOV that just felt like a restatement of what you had already said:

Spoiler:

That makes some sense but also like, it's hard to believe the fact Hiraki was pushing town most loudly from your pov didn't lead you to other conclusions - like he was probably killed for being widely townread, or maybe mafia somehow caught on he was a PR. The way you seem to like, instantly come up with a scumpool of me and marci at daystart is kind of sus to me. After strongly pushing Juice as scum it's a convenient pivot to have available.

And given that this ^ post felt kinda like motivated reasoning, the fact you've mostly restated your original position didn't really help your position in my eyes.

[Aisa]

[...]

Have you ever heard of a tone read or a vibe read (<3)? I think this is the worst post of the bunch and seems pretty forced. Ausuka Feels Deliberately Tunnelly: The Sequel.

And yeah, obviously I've heard of a tone read. That doesn't mean I'm just going to accept any read and not question it. It's absolutely possible that RR is town here and I just don't understand their angle. But given how simple Herta's post is, I think claiming to townread it is scum indicative. It makes it seem more likely they are tailoring the evidence to fit the reads rather than the other way around.

I think claiming to townread that post is pretty null. The emphasis you're putting on assessing logic just feels like it could be a pretty nice way to create red tape, so to speak. If we're gonna poke holes in people's logic we could be here for many weeks.
[...]

In hindsight though this reply (I wrote it! *waves*) was kinda bad, I now think that independently of Ausuka's alignment they weren't really trying to create "red tape" so I think I get why my posting would have confused them
But I believe that my point that claiming to townread Herta's post is pretty null still stands? Like I think I probably just disagree with how alignment-indicative it is.

Like, I think the holes in the logic are not particularly difficult to understand. You also found this an odd angle. RR is not a new player. Why should I believe that their thought process is genuine? The simplest explanation is that RR was looking for a pivot into Marci and planned to use the Hiraki kill as an excuse to do so while also eliminating their biggest critic from the game.

Also probably worth stating out loud that this kinda reads motivated, especially the "why should I believe...?"
I also disagree that the simplest explanation is RR looking for a pivot into marci? The simplest explanation in my eyes is Townie being town.

VOTE: ausuka
Given all the above

[Aisa]

Is it just me or does the above post not make much sense?

scumread marci, therefore you must be scum".
- However, both town and scum can have bad justification for their reads, so bad justification is actually approximately NAI.
- You pointed out the bad justification and seemed uninterested in contemplating a world in which this bad justification came from town.

So you think my scumread is bad and that because I'm pushing a read which is NAI I am scum?

That is a pretty fair summary, yes.
Like I'd never say that pushing a read which is NAI means someone is scum in itself, but the way you are pushing it seems scummy, yes.

[Aisa]

Yes, I was wrong about Juice. So was half the game, and Juice was an anomaly by actively playing against the game, up to and including xyr self hammer. It's why I haven't put any effort into wagon analysis, Juice undermined whatever could have been learned by that by refusing to elaborate on anything when asked, and hammering xyrself instead of making someone else pull the trigger. I don't regret voting there, nor do I think there are any useful lessons to be learned. Had Juice played Mafia instead, xe probably would have lived for one, but if they hadn't and if it were my fault, yeah I probably would have stepped back to reevaluate things after.

Juice was an easy push for scum to make because xe acted in such a silly way. I think there were definitely scum pushing that wagon

Or they saw what was happening and knowing xe would likely go down without them pushing it stayed off of it. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps I should be going back and looking for unnatural defenses of Juice... I'll follow up on this later

I mean, I just disagree. There were definitely people who acknowledged bad play does not mean scum

And there's people who acknowledged that and also acknowledge that the way juice was playing is more likely to come from scum than town.
The only person who really defended Juice at all was Marci and I

think

Hiraki somewhat. I do think that the way marci defended juice was probably +town, but that's pretty much the only thing going for town!marci atp fmpov.

How do you feel towards marci's wall? Admittedly I haven't looked super hard into their meta as different alignments, but do you think marci would produce something like that as scum?

[Aisa]

UNVOTE: Ausuka
I'm doing this to show I'm aware I need to broaden my horizons and properly think through everyone in the game. That's something I've always been aware that I need to do. As we get closer to deadline it seems more important to be more open about what I'm thinking.

I do really think it's worth reconsidering the quality of Ausuka's push on RR. To be clear, though, part of the reason my vote/attention has been sitting on Ausuka is that no-one else is pushing them and I don't think putting some extra attention there would hurt town at all. I'm not so certain they're scum that I'd hammer right this very second.

So aisa you think this push on RR is disengeuous here? Could you elaborate on that more

@aisa

Sorry, I did see this yesterday but didn't get around to it.

I don't think there is actually a massive amount to comment on that I haven't commented on, I still think this shows what pinged me fairly well. Additionally I'd note that:
- Ausuka hasn't really shown much sign that they're re-evaluating their read on RR after my comments. It could be that they are engaging with the game just not explicitly talking about this in their posts, it could be that they're just busy etc. but on the whole this seems +scum, they seem pretty comfortable there.
- Some of their posts just strike me as suspicious tonally, like this one here kiiind of reads as "why should I bother trying to read RR when I can just "expect" them to post better?"

[...] RR is not a new player. Why should I believe that their thought process is genuine? [...]

(I am aware that is not the point Ausuka is trying to make in the actual post, they're trying to say "I believe RR would post better". I think.)

However I have to confess that I'm like

Is it just me or does the above post not make much sense?

scumread marci, therefore you must be scum".
- However, both town and scum can have bad justification for their reads, so bad justification is actually approximately NAI.
- You pointed out the bad justification and seemed uninterested in contemplating a world in which this bad justification came from town.

So you think my scumread is bad and that because I'm pushing a read which is NAI I am scum?

That is a pretty fair summary, yes.
Like I'd never say that pushing a read which is NAI means someone is scum in itself, but the way you are pushing it seems scummy, yes.

So why can't I believe that the way RR pushed marci coming into the day, pinning the Hiraki kill on her right away, is scummy

...I think you're right you can, yes and maybe that's all you're doing, this is all probably a sign I need to drop this for a day or so.

[Aisa]

General thoughts on the game atm are that I'd sooner elim marci than RR. "Gut feeling" sums this up best at the moment but basically there isn't much in RR's posts that pings me negatively, they read like they're kind of clean and unforced. I think the way they've been defending themselves is roughly what I would expect of town!RR.
marci I'm like, the recent wall could be town-indicative. I'm a big believer in trying to read how motivated someone is / activity levels and I think the wall is +town in terms of the motivation it shows. However the rest of their posting is just kinda *shrug* scum could do this.

Meg, Herta and Johnny all need a bit more attention I think. I guess Herta has received some attention, maybe it's just me who hasn't put in the work of actually making my mind on the slot. Anyway - I'm aware I don't police you all, everyone ultimately should do what they feel like doing, but I would recommend not forgetting these slots exist and not just auto-eliminating one of the current wagons come deadline.

[Aisa]

I also don't super like the idea of pushing Marci for that reason, the more I think about it the less.... idk the less sportsman like it is? If Marci's town here I don't wanna punish them for putting forth effort.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't understand this.
Ain't it never happened that Serena Williams shows up to the tennis court and goes "y'know what, I don't really want to play this game because my opponent has put forth effort in training for this match. Gee, that would be really unsportmanlike."
Do you agree with me here and if so does that change your assessment of marci?

[Aisa]

Overall its alright I guess. I could see scum!marci making that in defense but I do also think it can be town.

This is an awfully wishy washy answer. Or noncommittal I guess. I was waiting for Aisa to post to see if it was brought up.

Maybe I'm missing something and that's why it wasn't pointed out?

I don’t really mind the response per se, like sometimes you don’t feel strongly about how AI a post is and that seems fine?

I’ll give you they seem a bit passive now that I look at the ISO again. Either they think we need more from marci, in which case the post above is a bit non-committal, or they have an opinion on marci but haven’t really stated it. Which one is it Meg?

[Aisa]

Hiraki likely town. I only felt it before. After that thorough analysis I'm fairly convinced. It's hard to fake that many thoughts on a chunk like that.

Sorry I'm not feeling this game. Or mafia in general really right now.

I'm not getting the nuances that are being pointed out regarding ausuka by aisa and radical rat. I'm also not getting ausuka's positions on aisa and radical rat fwiw. My eyes are just glazing over at some of these posts. It does appear that aisa and radical rat are not necessarily tied but in the same ballpark? It feels that way anyway and makes me lean toward voting one of them.

why no townread for me?
I like townreads
Give me townread

[Aisa]

On a reread of D1, I'm mostly just more confused. I don't actually think it would have been that hard for scum to push him today if they'd wanted to. His argument with me was pedantic and just generally bad, and the comment on expecting Juice to flip Town could probably have been spun as a TMI thing were they so inclined.

Other than him, the only people who seemed to think Juice might be Town were Meg and marci. Which is interesting since Meg was on the wagon, while continuing to engage with Juice as though xe were just misguided Town. However, this is also a problem I have sometimes, and have been wrongly called scum for it before, so I'm hesitant to jump on it outright.

I still keep coming back to marci though. Most of their posting is like. Putting on an appearance of content without actually doing much, it's supported by the Hiraki kill, and I just can't find anyone looking worse.

I didn't peg you for such a heavy NKA user! For what it's worth I agree Hiraki was pushable, I'm not sure why he was the kill and I have just decided I'm not going to let that influence me too much. If you're confused as to why Hiraki was the kill, maybe just let that go?

Talk to me about why marci looks worse that everyone else to you?
Aus I can see you townreading. I'm lowkey thinking Meg is town. I'm confused as to why you seem so certain that Herta and Johnny look better.

[Aisa]

i am uninterested in this game and i wont hide that
being sused for 0 reason is just so tiring

Oww =(
I don't know how much compensation this is for the fact I'm willing to elim you if it comes down to it today, but here's a virtual hug for you: O

[Aisa]

Maybee let's try and actually coordinate an elimination everyone might be ok with and avoid a last-minute scramble. You might think that's a tall order since people's reads are pretty varied, but it's ok, I have a solution for you!
It's called "listen to me and stop voting or sussing people I townread" xx

On a serious note, sheeping me is usually a bad idea, but also like I'd prefer neither Meg nor RR to go down today.

I can do marci or Johnny. I've just had a look at Herta and I think they do seem a bit townier than Johnny because their tone this game seems different from a scumgame I've seen on their main. Ausuka the mafia gods have sort of got me in a townreading mood again, and also I doubt it really matters because no-one seemed very impressed by my arguments against them earlier this game day, or at least that's what I've been telling myself to avoid having to sort the slot today

[Aisa]

I guess marci isn't. That makes me wonder about ausuka's marci vote now.

Wonder in what sense?

[Aisa]

It sounds like you are not voting marci because you scumread her. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is valid and I can see why you'd be annoyed, just thought I'd point it out and you can decide what to do with it.

[Aisa]

I'm kinda just hanging around waiting for Johnny to post
Maybe I should do something more productive with my time for a few hours

[Aisa]

FWIW I will be around at least up to ~1 hours before deadline and will hammer whoever. Tis true that Johnny is lacking votes at the moment, but like, we can change that, a few of us have expressed willingness to vote him.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
There you go. Let's see what he says. I will go distract myself for a couple hours now but I will have analysis tonight I promise, elim me if I don't!!

[Aisa]

Things That Strike Me About Herta
a short story

I'm not getting town pings from anyone really except maybe marci, maybe ausuka. Maybe not ausuka. I don't know. It's lame but aisa's initial post day 1 still grates on me as does her answer to my question abt why she assumed I'm scum seemed over wrought and deflective or something. I can't recall for sure and can't be arsed to go look rn.

Do they try to sus me in this particular way if they're mafia?
They have to do something like this:
I want to sus Aisa -> but not too much -> let's pretend I hated her very first post

What makes me hesitate a bit on this is
Their read on me is a bit static. It feels like every ~5 days they inevitably surface with some sort of take on me and it is always "this post is not the vibes" and I think that if it a genuine read there should be some probability it became an actual push a bit earlier than they did. They're clearly capable of giving actual reasons for reads e.g. this post.

Just a pop in. I'm not feeling the two wagons.

Marci who should I vote other than rad rat?

I'm not sure that Herta scum would feel good about surrendering control in this way.

Marci and Rad Rat were at e-2 for days. With no movement there I think scum must be other than {marci, Rad Rat, herta}. So that leaves Meg, Johnny, Ausuka, Aisa.

I don't think Ausuka and Aisa are paired, same with meg & ausuka. The Ausuka unvote of Johnny seems bad to put marci on e-1.

I can't seem to get my head around something.

Don't think I really agree with the reasoning here, but at least they have Takes.

As has been said I do think their posting is a bit easy and like I wouldn't be shocked if they were still scum, but hopefully this gives a flavour of why I think marci/Johnny > Herta atp.

[Aisa]

Given Meg's post:
UNVOTE: JohnnyFarrar

VOTE: marcistar
They are in my PoE and I think they just shake out the worst after considering Herta. I'm also thinking that if we eliminate someone else I'm not sure who that will be. This seems like a good time to say that marci is a good vote imo.
Sorry marci.

This is E-1.

[Aisa]

Approve of massclaim, if Johnny wants to start go on then

[Aisa]

I'm also a Patient/Vanilla.

Can you full claim, Meg?

Mine isn't the easiest to explain so feel free to ask questions

I am a Technologist.
I am essentially a multitasking JOAT with only investigative abilities flavored as various medical tests (i.e X-rays, etc.) I have 4 in total.
I do not get my results, instead each result is sent to a radiologist in the game, who then has to decipher it (I assume as a night action but it isn't specified to me)

In the interest of there possibly being a backup for Hiraki (

especially since scum was double likely to interfere with my results

) of some kind I won't out targets at the moment so I can confirm the role at least of them.

Ausuka you're up next.

What does the bolded mean exactly?

[Aisa]

ok well meg is probably town I guess

Theoretically this could just be cop Vs 2 goons or something but I don't think Ircher would put effort into that and I'm not convinced meg would do this as scum either

So fmpov it's aisa/Herta, Johnny/Herta or aisa/Johnny, in reverse order of probability

I agree with this assessment.

I guess the amount of town power that has been claimed so far seems roughly balanced. Meg + Hiraki's abilities combined sound like a nerfed investigative, but I guess that if Meg can submit more than one action a night that might balance this. Or it could be Hiraki had some additional ability we're not aware of.

Radiologist is a bad thing to lose I bet

you don't say
My bet would be it was something reminiscent of a cop

*Resists urge to do own interpretation of post*

Can you explain what you were thinking here briefly?

[Aisa]

Bite me

[Aisa]

Herta:

I'm paying an intense grand of minesweeper. Thought I'd take a break and catch my breath.

What was this?

Marci and Rad Rat were at e-2 for days. With no movement there I think scum must be other than {marci, Rad Rat, herta}. So that leaves Meg, Johnny, Ausuka, Aisa.

I don't think Ausuka and Aisa are paired, same with meg & ausuka.

The Ausuka unvote of Johnny seems bad to put marci on e-1

.

I can't seem to get my head around something.

I guess marci isn't.

That makes me wonder about ausuka's marci vote now

.

(Somewhere in between those two posts someone explained Ausuka had not put marci on e-1.) Can you explain why you went from "Ausuka putting marci on e-1 seems bad" to "Ausuka putting marci on e-2 makes me wonder?"

Johnny:

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
It would really help if you could state one read with some motivation behind it. I know you posted this catch-up post, I'm looking for one consolidated stance.

Hey man, if i'm here I'm motivated. If you mean you want me to lead a wagon or something that's prolly not gonna happen, I tend to play psychology more than mafia and people don't like cases based on vibes. I try to be clear with who I vote and why tho.

You didn't really answer the question and seeing you commit to a read even vaguely would be really helpful.

Ausuka:

confession; i'm stupid and don't know what a radiologist is so i have no idea what this means role wise
[...]

What was the motivation behind this post?

[...]

Juice was an easy push for scum to make because xe acted in such a silly way. I think there were definitely scum pushing that wagon

Who do you think was pushing that wagon?

[Aisa]

Johnny, I'm afraid you've committed a brutal offence. May the ire of the Great Rabbit rain upon you by making it so that rabbits burrow in your garden if you have one, or, uh... making you have a nightmare about rabbits burrowing in your garden if you don't?

Johnny:

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
It would really help if you could state one read with some motivation behind it. I know you posted this catch-up post, I'm looking for one consolidated stance.

Hey man, if i'm here I'm motivated. If you mean you want me to lead a wagon or something that's prolly not gonna happen, I tend to play psychology more than mafia and people don't like cases based on vibes. I try to be clear with who I vote and why tho.

You didn't really answer the question and seeing you commit to a read even vaguely would be really helpful.

So if i'm reading this right Meg's power is nothing without someone else to interpret?

[Aisa]

1. I got caught up in a game of minesweeper and needed ot rest from it.

Eep, maybe I'm just dense, but I am still not sure if minesweeper is supposed to be a metaphor for something or if you were literally playing minesweeper the logic game?

2. It looked like Ausuka waited until someone unvoted marci to vote marci. That led me to thinking marci and ausuka might be partnered, and ausuka was trying to distance a bit.

Ok. My point was
First you said "I dislike Ausuka putting marci at E-1"
then it was pointed out that marci was not at E-1, and you said "I dislike Ausuka waiting for marci not to be at E-1 to vote there".

That's not always a problem, but the change of opinion was what I was hoping you would comment on :3

Nightmare scenario for me, only clear
I'm leaning towards one of herta/johnny rather than ausuka/aisa

...Being the only clear in 5p elo is the spice of life?

Spoiler: fun

One of my favourite teachers once told us something very similar to your previous sig (that imperfection is the spice of life) and it is to me still one of the most memorable things the man ever said.

Who would you vote between Herta and Johnny, Meg?

[Aisa]

I actually have almost exactly the same take as Meg! I like Johnny's posting

when

he is posting
I do think it's worrying that he keeps ignoring my question. My one past experience with town!him (which to be fair didn't last very long) was that he could sometimes miss a question but if nagged aggressively enough he'd eventually give you a reply. It's a bit dissatisfying this is all I have to go against him. Nothing in his play feels

incompatible

with being town, so I feel like all I can gauge is if this activity pattern is more scum-like.

Actually writing that out makes me think that it probably is. I feel like the marci elimination yesterday is a very recent reminder that not answering questions is not an ironclad scumtell, but maybe taking the chance is the right thing to do here :'(

[Aisa]

Ah, I actually want to mention this: maybe we should worry about Johnny going down a little too easily here? What do people think scum is likely to want in this gamestate? If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag.

Wait for it...
...
Yes, I'm here to discuss Meg possibly being the mastermind behind it all xx

[Aisa]

I'm actually pretty sure who I wanna vote though

Who were you thinking of?

[Aisa]

What's limited reveal mechanics?

Drats

Lol

[Aisa]

But yeah, just to lull Meg into a false sense of security, I'll say that contingent on "limited reveal mechanics" turning out to actually make sense rather than a string of three random words, I have been convinced by their eloquent case to townread them.

(=yeah yeah sorry I'll stop pushing the vanity wagon and actually get back to business now. It would also be kind of nice if I could trust them to tell me why Aus is probably town)

P-edit: ah, thanks, that's actually a really darn convincing point!

[Aisa]

Sure, that makes sense I guess
Johnny does seem like the better option at the moment, but I will think about it a little more before voting, at least until tomorrow

[Aisa]

Today's update is that I'm thinking maybe it just is our two lovely lurkers. We still have time for them to say something, so I will drop a vote tomorrow.

[Aisa]

But yeah, I've decided it is not a good idea to vote Ausuka atm. I still kinda want to vote Johnny more, but *deepens and hoarsens voice* I am very scary and very intimidating! I think you should still try your best to impress me, Herta.
#badcop

[Aisa]

I'm finally ready to accept responsibility for my actions - :') - let's do this. VOTE: JohnnyFarrar

Johnny is at E-1.

For the record, I don't think Herta's latest post looks amazing and I think it would make sense for them to be Johnny's partner, but that's a discussion for tomorrow, assuming we even get there.

[Aisa]

: (

[Aisa]

Oh lmao, I know trolling is a thing, but somehow your mind still interprets as serious in that split second

Well unless one of us is trolling Johnny probably is indeed a wolf

I do think that's how maths works yes <3

[Aisa]

Fun times

Can I check that I understand your argument correctly Herta?

I think you came in with 4 hours left and it's oh shit the deadline. Like you didn't know there was one. Actually 1 minute before aisa votes. And somehow I'm supposed to believe that scum doesn't bus there? Actually scum probably lets it ride and sees if I do come in and hammer.

That heavily points to aisa in my eyes then.

Just don't vote yet please.

Actually 1 minute after sorry.

Are you saying that you think Ausuka didn't know there was a deadline because of the "oh shit 4 hours left" post?
If not I'm confused as to whether you're arguing that I am *more* likely to be scum for voting Johnny when I did.

Yeah. That leads me back to aisa, who I've been suspicious of all game. More so than you anyway.

If you've been suspicious of me all game is there a reason you didn't do much about it?
I mean, I understand that you tried to push me at the end of Day 2 and that you just haven't been that engaged in the game for parts of it. I guess my criticism is specifically that you made a lot of posts along the lines of "this is not the vibes" and the way I think about talking to other players is that you've got to give them *something* that helps them, and "this is not the vibes" is just a bit subjective.

[Aisa]

Also have a question for Aus - was it coincidence that you appeared one minute after I voted?

[Aisa]

Aus - you just missed out on an opportunity to claim it was a big brain play and that you were waiting to see if I would post which I was thinking would have been +town. Sure though, I have nothing against seeing a thread in your egosearch and deciding to post there!

Herta -

1. I got caught up in a game of minesweeper and needed ot rest from it.

Eep, maybe I'm just dense, but I am still not sure if minesweeper is supposed to be a metaphor for something or if you were literally playing minesweeper the logic game?

2. It looked like Ausuka waited until someone unvoted marci to vote marci. That led me to thinking marci and ausuka might be partnered, and ausuka was trying to distance a bit.

Ok. My point was
First you said "I dislike Ausuka putting marci at E-1"
then it was pointed out that marci was not at E-1, and you said "I dislike Ausuka waiting for marci not to be at E-1 to vote there".

That's not always a problem, but the change of opinion was what I was hoping you would comment on :3

[...]

aisa

Minesweeper the windows game, yes. I play a lot. What would it be a metaphor for? I mean what would you think it would be a metaphor for?

What change of opinion were you wanting my comment on? Ausuka's on marci? I need to look at that if so. I mean I don't even know if I had a thought about it other than mechanically I didn't like it. It just looked convenient. And even if I did have a thought on it at the time I don't think I could get beyond that marci flipped green, and the whole thing was me thinking scum!ausuka was voting scum!marci at e-2. Which the more I think of it the dumber I am for thinking that. I don't think a scum partner would put their partner on e-2 at that point. There was no need to. It's possibly scum motivated I guess, but like trace scum maybe.

I thought that maybe "dodging mines" could be a metaphor for something. Actually I'd forgotten about this but it seems pretty important - it looks like it could be some sort of PT slip or simply a perspective slip? It's also just really out of context, it would make a lot more sense as part of a conversation with someone rather than a standalone post.

I was hoping you'd comment why:
- First you said "I dislike Ausuka putting marci at E-1"
- Then it was pointed out that marci was not at E-1, and you said "I dislike Ausuka waiting for marci not to be at E-1 to vote there".

The fact you said *both* things almost implies you think *both* are scummy which, strictly speaking, makes no sense.

P-edit Gonna dip to have dinner now, but I will get back to you later.

[Aisa]

Who is "they" here? And if it's aisa why wouldn't a scum!aisa figure that the two town _are_ going to come in and hammer johnny? When is the last time you saw a no lim in elo?

i mean, you said yourself you came in after deadline, yes? so if one of us was scum we basically threw there

to be fair, you could argue scum didn't know that and was playing it safe, which is true. but considering the general lack of activity within this game, i dont think theres that much motivation to take that step

Worth noting Herta claimed they came in during twilight, which is not the same as after the deadline.
Don't get me wrong, still many universes in which Herta is scum there are.

[Aisa]

I think you came in with 4 hours left and it's oh shit the deadline. Like you didn't know there was one. Actually 1 minute before aisa votes. And somehow I'm supposed to believe that scum doesn't bus there? Actually scum probably lets it ride and

sees if I do come in and hammer

.

I'm sorry but how does the logic work here?
If I, Meg and Aus are all voting Johnny you're not needed to get the wagon through, so why would scum!me vote Johnny and "see if you come in and hammer" when that's not a necessary condition for the wagon to go through?

Fun times

Can I check that I understand your argument correctly Herta?

I think you came in with 4 hours left and it's oh shit the deadline. Like you didn't know there was one. Actually 1 minute before aisa votes. And somehow I'm supposed to believe that scum doesn't bus there? Actually scum probably lets it ride and sees if I do come in and hammer.

That heavily points to aisa in my eyes then.

Just don't vote yet please.

Actually 1 minute after sorry.

Are you saying that you think Ausuka didn't know there was a deadline because of the "oh shit 4 hours left" post?
If not I'm confused as to whether you're arguing that I am *more* likely to be scum for voting Johnny when I did.

Yeah. That leads me back to aisa, who I've been suspicious of all game. More so than you anyway.

If you've been suspicious of me all game is there a reason you didn't do much about it?
I mean, I understand that you tried to push me at the end of Day 2 and that you just haven't been that engaged in the game for parts of it. I guess my criticism is specifically that you made a lot of posts along the lines of "this is not the vibes" and the way I think about talking to other players is that you've got to give them *something* that helps them, and "this is not the vibes" is just a bit subjective.

Ididn't really push anyone so not just you. Day 1 I thought I was just overreacting to your first post and response. DAys 2 and 3 I had suspicions but no ambition to flesh them out. I came into one of those days, I think the elo day, thinking I wanted to vote you and I don't remember why I didn't. Probably because it was elo. And then I was paranoid of meg's "clear" so I was really waffling. Yeah it's kind a coming back now. Yes it was elo and I wasn't up to casing anyone so I didn't follow up on my suspicions on either you or meg and it didn't seem like anyone cared to play anyway so apathy.

And yes I do think aususka coming in and voting after you points more to you being scum because ausuka would be like "I'm just going to let it go. if herta comes he comes if not gg."

Fair enough on the not really pushing anyone.

However

, what exactly is Aus "letting go" of?

It sounds like you are trying to talk about what town Ausuka would think. But again, how does it make sense for town!Aus to think "I'm just going to let it go and *not vote* unless somebody votes Johnny first" rather than "I'm going to vote and hope one of Aisa or Herta come and hammer Johnny"?

[Aisa]

To be clear, I think there are reasons to tr Ausuka based off that hammer. I don't think the yolo, might-as-well-yeet-Johnny-hehe attitude comes from scum or if it does it's pretty well executed.

That's not your stated reason for clearing them though and I just don't think your argument really works. Also this:

I think you came in with 4 hours left and it's oh shit the deadline. Like you didn't know there was one. Actually 1 minute before aisa votes. And somehow I'm supposed to believe that scum doesn't bus there? Actually scum probably lets it ride and sees if I do come in and hammer.

i kind of think that is +scum? like, it's definitely something town *could* think but it also seems like the kinda waffly stuff scum tend to love

why does scum make this post a day before deadline?

Ah, I actually want to mention this: maybe we should worry about Johnny going down a little too easily here? What do people think scum is likely to want in this gamestate? If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag.

Wait for it...
...
Yes, I'm here to discuss Meg possibly being the mastermind behind it all xx

Here's a defense of johnny right after that which makes sense coming from scum.

it's clear I've got work to do.

So scum busses Johnny, but Ausuka sussing Johnny is towny and me considering options other than Johnny is scummy?

To emphasise this,

FOS Herta

[Aisa]

Cute and makes it easy for me! Let me know about any questions you have, Aus.

VOTE: Herta

[Aisa]

Also like, having fun > getting it right. Ideally you'd get it right too, but no hard feelings if you don't!

I mean you're working hard to get ausuka to vote me but not sorting ausuka at all.

Sometimes I'm just more in the mood to talk about a specific player. If I see something that I want to comment on I'm gonna prioritise commenting on that and that's what happened here.

There was a reason I didn't vote you then and there.

I did ask Aus this yesterday, Aus can make their own mind up as to whether this counts as trying to sort them:

Also have a question for Aus - was it coincidence that you appeared one minute after I voted?

[Aisa]

An unexpected consequence of this is that it's hard to pick what posts to comment on to case Herta, like just going and picking the first posts in their ISO I get:

Spoiler:

Aisa fishing for a reaction or are you just scum?

Fishing for a reaction.

What did you think I was going to say? I mean this as a genuine question, not in a passive-aggressive way.

Why would you think I'm lhf instead of scum?

Framing me as thinking they are low hanging fruit and trying to get them eliminated. Note this is page 1, when is anyone ever trying to eliminate someone on page 1?

Spoiler:

i'm asking you what made you feel that way considering i had barely posted anything up to that point and i am worried you are townreading me too easily?

how hard is it to undersrand wtf

you always tell me how much you suck right?
so then i see you form thoughts and word things here similar to how you did last game (clowning)
so then its townie vibes cuz similar?!??!?

Pretty big reaction marci. Why does this frustrate you?

As marci points out herself later, I wouldn't say frustrated is the right description here.

Spoiler:

Hiraki why does meg stand out?

I assume this is the kind of thing that reads fine while being uninformed so I don't see much point in dwelling on it too much, it's really easy though.

Spoiler:

who said it frustrates me

If it wasn't frustration why the tone?

VOTE: marci

"Because marci is being marci" is a possibility they are ignoring

Spoiler:

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

Kind of a token contribution to ensure I don't get caught by the prod timer, but RL willing I will probably be around again in a couple hours.

I can't place it but you're pinging me.

"Aisa is not the vibes": exhibit 1. There are a couple more posts like this in their ISO. It's almost like they keep coming back to the thought because they've decided this is something they feel comfortable saying. My interpretation is not that they're trying to topple me right there and then, the push seems too mild for that to be the intention, I guess they're just trying to lie low and appear busy.

Spoiler:

I think my rxn test went very well though - lots of juicy protein

Which part was a test, bud? From here it looks like you're trying to handwave away some anti town behavior.

Especially when you say it was a reaction test and don't give us any idea as to your takeaways. You got lots of meat you say but you're just letting it rot? That doesn't jibe with a townie mindset.

Just a pretty easy push.

UNVOTE:

This is an unvote.

Spoiler:

Hiraki likely town. I only felt it before. After that thorough analysis I'm fairly convinced. It's hard to fake that many thoughts on a chunk like that.

Mehh once again I am not sure adding words to this does much. If I added words to this I would say that this is pretty easy. But you can judge for yourself by unspoilering that

VOTE: juice

This is a vote. Still a very easy push.

[Aisa]

Juice is obvious at this point right. Let's just move on.

Scum smelling a wagon and deciding to make a push for it xx

Also, another thing I just noticed is that

VOTE: Herta

Does anyone think this would be a bad vote?
Does anyone think this would live until endgame?

Why is it a good vote meg?

VOTE: Herta

Does anyone think this would be a bad vote?
Does anyone think this would live until endgame?

So you don't think I'll make it to endgame so kill herta now? I don't understand that.

!! These are posts that are completely consistent with Herta not realising Meg was softing a PR. This would explain why Meg didn't die night 2, which is something that had been bugging me in the back of my mind.

Although ehh I guess it's also possible they decided RR was a better target for whatever reason. Given that the amount of town power claimed seems like it would roughly be balanced with mafia goons though, I'm kind of confused as to why scum wouldn't jump at the chance of killing a TPR if they realise it is there, *especially* one that is implying some sort of result on Johnny.

[Aisa]

Although, wait, that doesn't make sense because, rereading, Meg is so blatantly implying a PR that I have no clue how one would misinterpret it as something else:

I don't want to clarify today but I can tomorrow.

There must be some other reason I haven't quite fully grasped for the night kill. Retract that part of my previous post.

[Aisa]

I get the impression Aus would prefer to just lurk a bit in the background and let Herta and I generate the content. I can see why they'd like that, as much as I wish it did not feel like I am talking into a void.

I'll try my best to point out things I think are relevant
I started writing a wall on Herta's Day 2 posts and can still provide this on request, but in the interest of not generating more words, which I don't know if Aus would find overwhelming, I'll do a tl;dr instead.

Yes, the Herta push on me at the end of Day 2 may look like something scum wouldn't do and I remember also thinking that at the time. However, looking back at Herta's ISO on Day 2, there are actually a lot of "lukewarm" posts and I would urge you not to treat the push on me as the Holy Grail or as a bigger deal than it actually is. I think remembering that Herta was already sussing me may help it look better?

The sequence of posts about me is

Spoiler:

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

I kind of got a similar SvS vibe and I think it's because both you and marci essentially brought up the same point repeatedly and neither of you seemed willing to relent. As far as arguments go I think that's one of the easier ways to fake them.

I think Juice warrants looking into more if nothing else. I'm not confident at all xe is scum but I think the way xe seems slightly selective with what xe responds to, and xyr tone would benefit from further investigation, so consider my vote there a serious one now.

Kind of a token contribution to ensure I don't get caught by the prod timer, but RL willing I will probably be around again in a couple hours.

I can't place it but you're pinging me.

I'm not getting town pings from anyone really except maybe marci, maybe ausuka. Maybe not ausuka. I don't know. It's lame but aisa's initial post day 1 still grates on me as does her answer to my question abt why she assumed I'm scum seemed over wrought and deflective or something. I can't recall for sure and can't be arsed to go look rn.

I can't really engage in full right now but didn't you say ausuka that my iso was terrible? It sounds like you don't really think so?

I hadn't really taken in aisa's recent posting, well haven't, but I will and think about it. I kinda just closed over it before which sometimes happens when there's complex thought or the appearance of such. I haven't even fully examined your recent posting but I saw the rad aisa question and it struck me on the surface if that makes sense.

FWIW I will be around at least up to ~1 hours before deadline and will hammer whoever. Tis true that Johnny is lacking votes at the moment, but like, we can change that, a few of us have expressed willingness to vote him.

VOTE: JohnnyFarrar
There you go. Let's see what he says. I will go distract myself for a couple hours now but I will have analysis tonight I promise, elim me if I don't!!

This post reads vibes scummy to me. Like I really dislike it.

Probably too late to start a new wagon but we'll see.

VOTE: aisa

Pedit: neat

It's not like they just invented the wagon out of the blue, it was clearly ongoing for a while.

By contrast here is just a selection of posts which are not particularly difficult to fake. I think these are all in a row if I've done my multi-quoting correctly.

Spoiler:

Yes, your heart lies.

I think carrot face may be town

I think carrot face may be town

1. Happy scumday!
2. Who... who is carrot face?!

By the way, I will unironically write a haiku for anyone who can understands how to read marci and can explain it to me. If a haiku is not attractive enough I could be persuaded to do a whole sonnet or even an MS paint doodle xx

Sorry that was spose to be marci. Fingers slipped.

1. I don't think the rabbit is town right now.
2. Just a feeling I get from her being so talkative and combative.

I forgot we had 2. Both actually. Or if more than 2, all.

[Aisa]

Aha, 24 hours since I made my previous post, almost on the dot!

[Aisa]

Oh please don't stress!!
Good luck with uni and I shall endeavour to be as chill as possible and really work on improving my relationship with the void

[Aisa]

I mean is there a reason an Aisa/Johnny team does this?

I don't really know why RR was the NK to answer your question though. Maybe it has something to do with this series of thoughts?

Just a pop in. I'm not feeling the two wagons.

Marci who should I vote other than rad rat?

Marci and Rad Rat were at e-2 for days. With no movement there I think scum must be other than {marci, Rad Rat, herta}. So that leaves Meg, Johnny, Ausuka, Aisa.

I don't think Ausuka and Aisa are paired, same with meg & ausuka. The Ausuka unvote of Johnny seems bad to put marci on e-1.

I can't seem to get my head around something.

Maybe they felt the tide had started to turn against RR being a miselim or something?

[Aisa]

Hmm, but what makes me kill RR over you or Herta?

[Aisa]

Who I feel like are by far the two people who have expressed the most suspicion of me this game? I see your point though.

[Aisa]

I did ask Aus this yesterday, Aus can make their own mind up as to whether this counts as trying to sort them:

Also have a question for Aus - was it coincidence that you appeared one minute after I voted?

I think it does to some extent, for what it's worth! Although I think I'd appreciate you explaining the thought behind that question. I don't know if it'll be useful but it might be!

Aus - you just missed out on an opportunity to claim it was a big brain play and that you were waiting to see if I would post which I was thinking would have been +town. Sure though, I have nothing against seeing a thread in your egosearch and deciding to post there!

Basically just this - I thought maybe you were waiting to see if I would post.
I guess more broadly the timing looked highly nonrandom. I hadn't considered that you could be using egosearch so it looked like you had been lurking. I think that's an interesting thing to question? You could have said "uuhhh I most definitely was not active lurking what do you mean huh " or "you know what I was worrying my head off about who to vote and seeing your post gave me the kick I needed to finally post".

[Aisa]

i mean johnny in his most recent scum game isn't much help because like

scamper is townread for most of the game and he defends them?

i mean he's clearly *capable* of mentioning his scum partners

i guess it's possible he just decided Fuck It I'm Not Doing That ???

lmao

if it's confusing you maybe it's just not that conclusive a consideration, you might just wanna think about other considerations?

[Aisa]

Ah, I actually want to mention this: maybe we should worry about Johnny going down a little too easily here? What do people think scum is likely to want in this gamestate? If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag.

Wait for it...
...
Yes, I'm here to discuss Meg possibly being the mastermind behind it all xx

Aisa i'm really sorry if you already said this and already forgot it but

Can you elaborate on your thoughts here. like my impression is that johnny's effort level is going to be consistently fairly low in any scenario and am wondering why you think otherwise

I don't think I've already talked about it.

My point wasn't so much about Johnny's activity as about everyone else's. It felt like we were slowly but inevitably hurtling towards eliminating Johnny and gamestates like that can be consistent with scum being very happy with who is being eliminated.

To double-explain that's what I meant by "If scum are the right people they actually don't need to effort very hard here and have this in the bag" - it was possible that scum weren't the people we were expecting them to be and that they were just chilling and secretly pushing Johnny from the shadows as it were. What if it was you and Meg for example?

I didn't think it was the most likely option, but my reasoning was:
- if Johnny is scum ok, we're doing fine
' if Johnny isn't scum, especially if it's somebody unexpected like Meg, we're utterly screwed
so I decided I would try to insure against the worst case scenario.

pedit: im tired ok

just so we're clear it wasn't meant as a criticism. Sorry to hear you're tired.

I'm gonna leave for today by the way, I could use some sleep too.

[Aisa]

I'm trying to get up to this.

With regard to juice, people have said my push was bad, including you Ausuka, but no one has set out why it was bad. In fact, I asked earlier in the game for someone to tell me why it was bad but no one did. If my push on Juice was bad, why did others vote them out also, and are you conflating bad with being wrong? Is it the difference between being anti-town (which we didn't know until after the fact) or scummy? I have a hard time with people retconning what Juice did there? Even the self-hammer was scummy. So if you want to say my treatment of Juice was bad, I just disagree. What was bad was my treatment of marci probably. I should have pushed her more so that she would show town.

In fact I need to go back and look at the marci wagon again.

Regardless I need to hammer there so that there was a hammer and someone was limmed, and I though Meg's countdown was the day;'s countdown, which was dumb of me when there's a vc countdown on the same page but whatever.



And yes I

Why do you need to look at it again?

Juice is obvious at this point right. Let's just move on.

I think the primary reason why your push on Juice looks bad is this

It shows confidence which I don't think town should really have in this situation at all so it looks fake

I completely agree with this. I think it's the confidence that is the giveaway.

[Aisa]

Oh I was not expecting this so soon!

[Aisa]

I was scum, GG though, you and Herta certainly made me work for it

[Aisa]

Also unfortunate position for you stuck as the deciding vote while trying to start university

We had plenty of luck along the way. The Hiraki nightkill was so lucky since Meg checked Johnny on Night 1!

[Aisa]

Ok, here is a bunch of thoughts!!

Does anyone have any tips on how to enjoy playing as mafia? It was very fun at times, but it was a bit stressful other times, how do I get rid of the stressful aspect of it?

I would take this partner again 1000 times. This scum thread is great.

<3 <3
Absolutely same! You were a great scum partner and always gave me reassurance when I needed it. (It probably wasn't very hard to tell when I was in need of it given I complained very liberally in the scum PT hahaha.)

Scum are probably in {Herta, aisa, Johnny}

This was a thing on Day 1, Aus had great reads!

- Herta's read on me was very consistently correct and I was very relieved they never pushed me much until Day 4.
- Juice also divined a correct read on me.
- I hope I get to play with you as town sometime marci - getting shaded all the time sounds really frustrating and I'm sad I didn't find a miselim that wasn't you on Day 2
- Thanks for the great setup Ircher and RH. I felt like a child in a candy shop when I got my Role PM and I'm gutted we didn't actually get to play with your mechanics (although I do think it probably made the game easier for scum on net).
- I though everyone was lovely to play with, despite the impression you might have got from my occasional shading.

[Aisa]

Also smh can't believe I spent all that time worrying about the fact I was multitasking when Meg was multitasking too

[Aisa]

Don't you say that Johnny! You were never and never will be a letdown!

It's true I was such a keen bean, but I like to think I'm a self-aware keen bean at least and never apologise or feel bad for being less keen :')

[Aisa]

Don't you say that Johnny! You were never and never will be a letdown!

It's true I was such a keen bean, but I like to think I'm a self-aware keen bean at least and you shuold never apologise or feel bad for being less keen :')

EBWOP